Log for #openttd on 22nd November 2012:
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06:03:50  <Rubidium> V453000: yeah, very interesting... someone wants to get flamed for not reading known-bugs before filing a bug reportt
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10:02:54  <Ammler> V453000: more interesting would be, why you report that issue
10:03:56  <Ammler> so it would be worth to fix it :-)
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11:15:16  <Rubidium> Ammler: it's not going to be fixed for reasons that can be read in the place I mentioned earlier
11:49:32  <Ammler> Rubidium: yep, that what I meant, it needs to find reasons :-)
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12:02:36  <V453000> I think you know how many pieces of fecal matter do I give about getting flamed, and yes I read the known bugs once a long time ago
12:14:16  <NGC3982> If i set a truck to wait 15 days at station X, and at the same time use the Full load option on the same order. Wich comes first?
12:14:49  <NGC3982> I guess it should mean it always wait a minimum of fifteen days
12:16:40  <V453000> I think it does, but better test it :)
12:16:56  <V453000> set some absurdly high value and let it go to a station with a lot of cargo
12:18:34  <NGC3982> It worked.
12:18:35  <NGC3982> Neat.
12:18:42  <Ammler> I guess, that is situation where you could use dummy tucks/trains
12:19:29  <NGC3982>
12:19:32  <NGC3982> Something like that.
12:19:55  <NGC3982> Oh wait
12:20:00  <NGC3982> No, it did not work.
12:20:35  <Ammler> the only thing I see on that screen is that your language is quite badly translated :-)
12:20:41  <NGC3982> Hehe
12:20:42  <NGC3982> Wat.
12:20:45  <NGC3982> Where?
12:21:03  <Ammler> or are those English words also "your" words?
12:21:18  <Ammler> Orders, Full...
12:21:19  <V453000> NGC3982: do you realize that even if the full load didnt work, you could still put the timetable on the drop?
12:21:38  <NGC3982> The full load worked, and the timetable didn't.
12:21:47  <Markk> Ammler: "Order" and "full" is Swedish, yes.
12:22:07  <Markk> Ammler: "Order" means order, and "Full" means either drunk or full. :)
12:22:31  <NGC3982> Lot's of ös and Às init'.
12:22:37  <Markk> yes
12:22:41  <Markk> åÀö
12:22:49  <Markk> NGC3982 is full all the times.
12:22:53  <NGC3982> Well, since this is a distribution system, i might aswell remove the full order option.
12:24:22  <Ammler> I always thought, German has many similar words
12:24:31  <NGC3982> To Swedish?
12:24:36  <Ammler> to English
12:25:18  <NGC3982> Both Swedish and English are based on Germanic region languages.
12:25:45  <NGC3982> Indo-European, or what'ya call it.
12:26:11  <__ln__> No, Indo-European is quite much larger concept.
12:26:57  <NGC3982> According to Wikipedia, Indo-European was way bigger then that, yes.
12:27:13  <NGC3982>
12:27:16  <NGC3982> Eeh. Indeed.
12:43:03  <Eddi|zuHause> basically, everything other than finnish and chinese :)
12:43:20  <Pinkbeast> Basque I think is also thought not to be Indo-European in origin
12:43:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i was being ironic :)
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12:53:30  <NGC3982> Hehe
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13:43:01  <sponge> Hi guys. I just built the trunk version, I get an error that I'm missing sprites from the base set. Do I need to download opengfx from trunk as well?
13:43:42  <sponge> I chose the download option the first time I ran it, but appearantly im still missing sprites.
13:45:47  <sponge> cant find anything useful using cat=grf and debug level 6.
13:46:24  <sponge> some sprites are skipped, but theres no error reporting.
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14:12:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the opengfx version on bananas is insufficient for trunk, so you need a trunk version of opengfx as well
14:14:17  <Eddi|zuHause> it is, however, not a critical error, so you can play without, just some sprites (probably in the GUI) will be replaced by questionmarks because they are missing
14:15:17  <planetmaker> yes. You'll miss out on the delete textbox icons and on the one added before that - which I forgot ;-)
14:15:26  * NGC3982 plays even though he said he wouldn't.
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14:16:12  <__ln__> why questionmark and not assert fail like in the good old days?
14:16:54  <Eddi|zuHause> because asserts on wrong input are programming errors :)
14:18:44  * NGC3982 needs to google the word "Assert".
14:21:40  <sponge> Ok, doesnt sound too serious.
14:22:02  <Belugas> hello
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15:50:14  <andythenorth> disallow destruction of rivers on the map? :O
15:50:21  <andythenorth> lame.  I always bulldoze rivers
15:50:32  <Nat_aS> Just make it really expensive
15:50:44  <Nat_aS> well less expensive than raising sea tiles
15:50:51  <Nat_aS> but almost as expensive
15:51:01  <Nat_aS> and also, probably more city angering
15:51:09  <andythenorth> I'll just reset the bulldoze water cost
15:51:13  <andythenorth> it's trivial
15:51:49  <Nat_aS> nah, we need fluid dynamics
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15:55:49  <Eddi|zuHause> it would really be useful to have a "don't allow water destruction" mode similar to AIs, to prevent accidental money spending
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16:15:53  <sponge> Eddi|zuHause: some late night LAN games have revealed that a lot of money gets lost that way. :)
16:18:24  <Nat_aS> Bah
16:18:28  <Nat_aS> who cares about money
16:18:32  <Nat_aS> once you got one good line
16:18:44  <Nat_aS> everything might as well be free
16:18:50  <Nat_aS> well except for bribeing towns
16:19:05  <Nat_aS> and if you turn inflation on, buying new engines
16:19:12  <Nat_aS> if the newgrf is not balanced right
16:26:27  <Nat_aS> even then, you just take out billion dollar loans
16:26:40  <Nat_aS> or fast forward
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17:09:54  <_habnabit> hi! i'm poking at the source to try to implement something to easily, with vehicles with shared orders and timetables, uniformly distribute the start dates of the timetable. i.e. if there's two trains and a 20-day timetable, make the start dates 10 days apart
17:10:02  <_habnabit> has this already been worked on?
17:10:11  <_habnabit> it seems like something someone might've wanted before
17:10:51  <Pinkbeast> It has been tried many times before
17:10:58  <_habnabit> 'tried'?
17:11:01  <Pinkbeast> It's usually called "timetable separation" or similar.
17:11:10  <Pinkbeast> None of the implementations have been totally satisfactory.
17:11:18  <_habnabit> hmm, how not?
17:11:33  <_habnabit> (and where are these implementations?)
17:11:40  <Pinkbeast> Well, the most recent one choked badly with any "go to depot if needs servicing" implementation
17:11:56  <Pinkbeast> I'm suggesting "timetable separation" as a search term for tt-forums
17:12:01  <_habnabit> ah
17:12:47  <Pinkbeast> And a common problem is that a train waits at a station because it is early, holding up the next train on the schedule, which then increases the total time in the timetable, so trains assume they are early, so trains wait at stations, so...
17:12:56  <_habnabit> the other catch is i'm adding it to cargodist
17:12:57  <Pinkbeast> ... this applies to autofilled timetables, obviously.
17:13:17  <Pinkbeast> And another catch seems to be dealing very badly with trains overtaking each other en route
17:13:26  <_habnabit> hmm
17:14:45  <_habnabit> these all seem like problems with timetabling in general, though
17:14:48  <_habnabit> unless that's what you're saying
17:14:56  <Pinkbeast> A useful feature in many of these implementations, I feel, would be to be able to define where on a route trains are to respace themselves, so that one could use a station with plenty of platforms not used by other routes.
17:14:59  <Belugas> so quiet in the office...  the americans are doing Thanksgiving.  the phones do NOT ring!  yeah man!! Time to do some decent work
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17:15:47  <_habnabit> the feature i wanted to add was just simply distributing the start dates
17:15:54  <Pinkbeast> I do feel some of them are problems with timetabling in general, yes - but they need to be fixed if autoseparation is to work well.
17:16:10  <Pinkbeast> Especially autoseperation in conjunction with rolling autofilling.
17:16:12  <_habnabit> i can (and do) already fuck around with the dates
17:17:33  <Pinkbeast> Ditto I've often felt that a useful feature would be "leave station if another train with the same orders arrives, no matter what", which would dechoke a lot of the pathological cases - or "at most, wait x ticks, no matter what"
17:17:33  <_habnabit> er, not dates, but lengths
17:17:57  <_habnabit> hmmmmm
17:18:38  <Pinkbeast> Every autoseparation (that's another search term) patch I've tried works well if the track is exclusively used by trains with those orders, but as soon as any other trains get in and sometimes-but-not-always slow down the autoseparators, comedy ensues.
17:18:51  <_habnabit> actually, that might be good enough--what if you made it slightly more general and it was 'leave station if another identical train passes a particular target`
17:19:03  <_habnabit> so you could make it another station or a waypoint or what-have-you
17:19:15  <Pinkbeast> That would be better yet, yes - then you could have a waypoint outside the station.
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17:19:41  <_habnabit> hmmmm! okay, i think i'll look at implementing this
17:19:43  <_habnabit> i like this idea
17:20:21  <sponge> can anyone point me to a file in the sources where arbitrary strings are used in a drop down?
17:21:38  <sponge> also, does the drop down have a scrollbar if the items exceed the screen height? maybe I should use a list dialog.
17:22:25  <Pinkbeast> Also this alone does a poor man's autoseparation
17:23:10  <_habnabit> yeah
17:23:19  <planetmaker> sponge, just test with a very small OpenTTD window and you'll find your answer :-)
17:23:32  <planetmaker> (wrt scroll bars)
17:23:51  <planetmaker> what are - in your first  question - the meaning of 'arbitrary'?
17:24:06  <planetmaker> you might want to look at the language selection in the game options
17:24:40  <_habnabit> planetmaker, but, are you talking about leaving _immediately_ or in cases where the order is full load?
17:24:43  <_habnabit> er
17:24:44  <_habnabit> Pinkbeast, ^
17:24:53  <sponge> planetmaker: yeah thats the drop feature im looking for
17:25:00  <sponge> arbitrary strings = in game names
17:25:27  <sponge> I have defined a STR_RULES_GROUP_NAME :{STRING1}
17:25:40  <sponge> the dropdown takes an array
17:25:55  <Pinkbeast> I think it should be supported in any case - full load, train waiting because timetable, train waiting for autoseparation adjustment.
17:26:47  <sponge> planetmaker: the dropdown takes an array of StringID, but I somehow need to set that STRING1 argument for n number of options.
17:26:55  <sponge> guess I should look at the game options menu
17:27:04  <_habnabit> Pinkbeast, right, but i mean you probably wouldn't want a train that's unloading to just stop unloading
17:27:04  <Pinkbeast> It's useful for full load because of the cargod*st case where you have the same cargo going back and forth over the same line but would still like trains to wait for a full load if possible
17:27:33  <Pinkbeast> Yes, I agree that a train should finish unloading, but that's OK because it's guaranteed to terminate anyway
17:28:11  <Nat_aS> what about when you have goods being delivered to an island via a boat that shows up once a year, but want to distribute it to the towns via train or truck
17:28:21  <Nat_aS> cargodist dosn't know how to deal with that
17:28:58  <Pinkbeast> Well, hang on, we're not trying to fix all the world's problems here...
17:28:59  <planetmaker> sponge, not immediately visible: often for such menus consecutive strings are used. As they all have a unique ID it suffices to know the ID of the first string.
17:29:19  <sponge> gosh darn it, it takes a list too
17:31:58  <sponge> or rather, it has its own list type
17:36:01  <planetmaker> sponge, vehicle purchase windows also contain a drop down to filter for things like type, cargo or so
17:38:01  <sponge> planetmaker: i suppose one doesnt use std::string ?
17:38:26  <sponge> planetmaker: only found it in fileio, nowhere else.
17:41:25  <planetmaker> I think we don't ever use that
17:42:40  <sponge> roger
17:44:29  <planetmaker> we have our own string functions ;-)
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17:59:11  <sponge> does ShowDropDownList manage the list memory once it's passed to that function?
17:59:47  <sponge> looks like it in settings_gui
18:05:00  <frosch123> yes, it does
18:05:16  <frosch123> though there are two functions
18:05:22  <frosch123> one takes a allocated list of items
18:05:29  <frosch123> the other one takes a static array of strings or so
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18:07:59  <sponge> frosch123: yeah.
18:08:04  <sponge> showdropdownmenu takes stringid's
18:08:19  <sponge> altho im getting a segfault when trying to show my list
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18:15:05  <NGC3982> Evening, animals.
18:16:42  <sponge> 					DropDownList * list = new DropDownList();
18:16:42  <sponge> 					list->push_back(new DropDownListStringItem(STR_RULES_GROUP_NONE, 0, false));
18:16:45  <sponge> 					ShowDropDownList(this, list, 0, widget);
18:16:48  <sponge> oops.
18:17:00  <sponge> why would that segfault?
18:17:11  <sponge> I do that in OnClick for my WaypointWindow
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18:17:26  <sponge> unless, ofcourse, the widget type is wrong
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18:18:34  <sponge> Hm, no, WWT_DROPDOWN for both
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18:41:13  <sponge> hm. seems to work ok.
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19:07:29  <DanMacK> Hey all
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19:31:29  <sponge> Where should I call SetDParamStr to set a RAW_STRING parameter for my string? DrawWidget?
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19:36:14  <frosch123> for WWT_TEXT and similar stuff which draws texts itself there is a SetStringParams function or similar
19:36:18  <frosch123> in the window class
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19:38:01  <sponge> frosch123: this is a dropdown
19:38:09  <sponge> I have a list of char * displayed in it.
19:38:35  <frosch123> you mean you have dparams for the dropdown entries?
19:38:51  <frosch123> then use DropDownListParamStringItem
19:38:53  <sponge> no DropDownListCharStringItem's'
19:39:00  <sponge> Hm, that might be better.
19:39:28  <sponge> I have a list of groups with names given by the user.
19:39:31  <frosch123> DropDownListCharStringItem is for a single raw string
19:39:44  <frosch123> DropDownListParamStringItem is for general strings
19:40:00  <sponge> I know.
19:40:21  <sponge> I have STR_RULES_GROUP_NAME :{WHITE}{RAW_STRING}
19:40:56  <sponge> when I select one of the items in the drop down I want the dropdown button text to change to the selected.
19:41:08  <frosch123> i don't think you should set colour codes in the dropdowns
19:41:17  <frosch123> aren't they used for selected / not selected?
19:42:03  <sponge> yes.
19:42:20  <sponge> But that's besides the point... Or problem.
19:42:25  <sponge> May be :{RAW_STRING}
19:42:32  <sponge> or, if I can, just have the raw string displayed.
19:42:38  <frosch123> to set the parameters of the string on the WWT_DROPDOWN, use SetStringParameters
19:42:39  <sponge> It's an arbitrary (user input) name anyway.
19:43:17  <sponge> aha. its a virtual override
19:43:35  <sponge> right right, I think it's coming back to me now.
19:43:46  <frosch123> it's called for drawing and for determining the size of texts for window resizing
19:48:43  <sponge> There we have it.
19:48:44  <sponge> Working fine.
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19:50:11  <sponge> Thanks da assist.
19:50:17  <sponge> frosch123++
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19:51:40  <andythenorth> I made an app today
19:51:43  <andythenorth> called Pony Farm
19:51:48  <andythenorth> it's not for ottd
19:53:00  <Eddi|zuHause> how dare you!!
19:55:16  <andythenorth> I think there's a FIRS oil well in the right of this picture
20:06:37  <Eddi|zuHause> americans are weird... tons of free space bu they don't manage to build a straight line
20:08:33  <_habnabit> is there a service that'll build openttd binaries for you?
20:09:17  <_habnabit> i'd rather not try to figure out how to build on windows
20:09:25  <Terkhen> hello
20:09:35  <Terkhen> _habnabit: no
20:09:44  <_habnabit> dang
20:10:26  <Eddi|zuHause> there used to be "buildottd", but it's probably horribly outdated
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20:10:39  <frosch123> that one is broken since 2009 :p
20:10:49  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise, there's a build walkthrough in the wiki
20:12:24  <Rubidium> frosch123: you mean that it died together with ttdp? ;)
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20:14:14  <andythenorth> pay someone to build it...mechanical turk?
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20:15:44  <sponge> _habnabit: configure && make ? :)
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20:53:35  <andythenorth> bed time
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21:35:00  <frosch123> night
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22:21:32  <NGC3982>
22:21:39  <NGC3982> It's my first time.
22:23:05  <Kylie> hi NGC3982
22:23:10  <NGC3982> Kylie: Evening!
22:23:35  <Kylie> NGC3982: did u have an issue ?
22:24:01  <NGC3982> No, none at all.
22:24:39  <NGC3982> I was happily showing how i for the first time (after seven years of OpenTTD) found engine grouping as a usefull feature.
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22:27:42  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the meaning of the arrow icon?
22:29:37  <NGC3982> The gray one?
22:29:39  <NGC3982> I have no idea.
22:35:01  <Eddi|zuHause> something to do with autoreplace?
22:35:07  <NGC3982> Might be
22:35:32  <NGC3982> Yes, that was it
22:35:46  <NGC3982> I forgot, the autoreplace function does not turn off, even if all trains are replaces.
22:37:13  <Kjetil> saws and shit ?
22:37:17  <Kylie> NGC3982: it does turn off
22:37:50  <NGC3982> Kylie: Apparently not. I had to turn it off to make the arrow go away.
22:38:16  <NGC3982> By the way, it's on
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22:41:14  <NGC3982> Hmz.
22:41:31  <NGC3982> Any tip on how i can place a funded Fishing Harbour?
22:41:39  <NGC3982> It's a tad and a bit hard to place.
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22:44:12  <V453000> just try until you succeed
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22:49:17  * NGC3982 succeeded.
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23:29:12  <drac_boy> hi
23:29:21  <DDR> Helllo.
23:31:13  <drac_boy> how're you ddr?
23:31:26  <DDR> Past the age of majority, thankfully.
23:32:19  <DDR> What's up?
23:33:35  <drac_boy> sorting out computer parts...not much else tonight otherwise
23:33:37  <drac_boy> you?
23:34:08  <DDR> Reading a few news items from Hacker News, but then I've got some software to attend to.
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23:38:00  <DDR> I'll post it here when I'm done, if I get done today. :/
23:38:52  <drac_boy> :)
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