Log for #openttd on 2nd December 2012:
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00:12:30  <Psyk> I have also a "scrolling problem", when I click and drag the main viewport, it moves too fast - is there any option to slow it down?
00:16:41  <Zuu> Are you on a regular mouse/trackball or a wacom?
00:17:04  <Zuu> Scrolling with wacom is known to be fast, and personally I like it that way. :-)
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01:06:18  <Wolf01> 'night all
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08:52:40  <peter1138> Morning all
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08:54:44  <Ammler> guten morgen
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08:54:55  <Sturmi> moin
08:56:03  <andythenorth> boinsoirre
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09:14:24  <Terkhen> good morning
09:16:17  <andythenorth> hi Terkhen
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09:30:00  <andythenorth> o/ Alberth
09:30:14  <Alberth> hi andy
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09:30:51  <Alberth> he, /me was going to tell you something :(
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09:31:20  <Alberth> ah, you're back
09:31:34  <Alberth> the snow by dan is very clean, isn't it?
09:32:27  <andythenorth> yes
09:32:49  <andythenorth> needs a bit more texture maybe
09:33:06  <Eddi|zuHause> that was my thought as well
09:33:24  <andythenorth> will adjust later
09:33:32  <andythenorth> kind of thing I'll notice next time I play a game
09:33:39  <Alberth> :)
09:33:46  <andythenorth> meanwhile I have 8 industries remaining to convert to python templates :P
09:35:13  <andythenorth> I gave the lime kiln a steam crane before 1950s, instead of a front end loader
09:35:22  <andythenorth> looks better o_O
09:38:25  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds good
09:39:03  <Eddi|zuHause> although over here, 1990 would be more realistic :)
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09:57:55  <andythenorth> eastie?
10:02:06  <andythenorth> parameter?  "Change equipment dates according to prevailing political regime"
10:03:52  <Eddi|zuHause> :)
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10:11:31  <andythenorth> maybe newgrf shouldn't bother with intro dates
10:11:55  <andythenorth> maybe they should just specify 'epoch', and OpenTTD should define the epochs, according to scenario or such
10:14:04  <V453000> does 1986-1987 count as an epoch? :P
10:14:54  <andythenorth> if the game says so, yes :P
10:15:19  <andythenorth> hmm
10:15:23  <andythenorth> I was just dicking around
10:15:30  <andythenorth> but this could be a solution to day length
10:15:40  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's difficult, as "epochs" are not quite that fixed time ranges
10:15:50  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I know :)
10:15:56  <andythenorth> just define epochs 1-n
10:16:14  <andythenorth> newgrf says 'vehicle appears in [epochs]'
10:16:24  <andythenorth> let the game match epochs to dates
10:16:35  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds stupid
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10:23:36  <andythenorth> probably :)
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10:31:45  <V453000> not to mention that you can make all that currently from newGRF side? :P
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10:47:55  <Wolf01> hello o/
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11:01:28  <Alberth> hello
11:07:37  <andythenorth> V453000: my point is that newgrfs shouldn't control that :P
11:07:52  <andythenorth> I am declaring war on newgrf ;)
11:09:20  <V453000> :P
11:09:21  <andythenorth> newgrfs are stupid.  They should just provide graphics and some fundamental properties
11:09:44  <V453000> yes and no :)
11:10:02  <V453000> it is great that you can do anything with a newGRF
11:10:27  <V453000> but seeing how poorly playable for example most train sets are, could be fixed by unified mechanism :P
11:10:30  <V453000> but where would be the fun :P
11:13:39  <Alberth> imho the decisions that need more overview should be kept in the game engine, but unfortunately, TTDP moved some of these things into newgrf too
11:14:35  <Alberth> which no doubt at the time was the best that could be done
11:15:50  <V453000> possibilities are nice to have ... and nothing is idiot-proof :P
11:18:06  <Alberth> sure, we are probably making lots of stupid mistakes right now :p
11:20:03  <andythenorth> the only real mistake was the idea that one author - making a trainset - should dictate the entire gameplay experience :)
11:21:10  <Alberth> the game is more than playing with trains????? :o     :)
11:22:12  <andythenorth> perhaps we should remove other types of transport?
11:22:16  <andythenorth> simpler no?
11:22:18  <peter1138> let's scrap it all
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11:23:15  <andythenorth> can we make a text adventure version? o_O
11:24:10  <Alberth> open the console :p
11:30:02  <V453000> that is pretty much what I meant andy :) but well
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12:00:13  <Alberth> quak
12:00:30  <frosch123> moin :)
12:03:06  <Flygon> OpenTTD: Now ported to typewriter!
12:03:37  <frosch123> sounds like libaa
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12:09:32  <Flygon> DRAW PICTURE OF COAL
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12:10:43  <drac_boy> hi
12:11:02  <Flygon> Heya
12:11:12  <Flygon> We're playing typewriter OpenTTD
12:11:19  <drac_boy> hm?
12:11:40  <Flygon> Yeah, we ported it apperantly :D
12:11:53  <DorpsGek> type all caps until you get kicked
12:11:55  <drac_boy> you're strange flygon :p
12:12:01  <andythenorth> ADD NEWGRF TO RUNNING GAME.  ABORT
12:12:05  <andythenorth> COMPLAIN
12:12:11  <Flygon> I love you, andythenorth
12:12:29  <Sturmi> NUKE ALL
12:12:42  <andythenorth> UNDO UNDO UNDO
12:12:45  <Flygon> Sturmi has been playing Alpha Centauri again
12:12:53  <Alberth> ERR: No nuke available
12:12:57  <DorpsGek> is there a way to pipe 'users' into 'kick' like 'xargs' or so?
12:13:25  <andythenorth> START GAME.  MAKE MORE NEWGRFS.  PLAY AGAIN
12:13:33  <Wolf01> ctrl + select on the user list
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12:14:43  <Flygon> What have I done
12:15:40  <Alberth> you should release the game, it's gone be big
12:16:22  * Flygon gives Alberth a typewriter and 54353 page instruction book
12:16:38  <andythenorth> Alberth: it needs a shinier interface.  Modern players expect modern standards.  This game will never be big without modern graphics.
12:17:07  <andythenorth> for example, games commonly played use anti-aliasing on their fonts
12:17:29  <Flygon> But it's naturally antialiased
12:17:31  <Flygon> TO THE ATOM
12:17:43  <andythenorth> if we want to grow the userbase, we should implement AA.  It's not much work.  And if it is, we should consider rewriting all of the engine to support AA.
12:17:48  <andythenorth> otherwise we'll never get a lot of players
12:18:03  <Flygon> Doesn't 32bpp support AA?
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13:00:59  <andythenorth> woo
13:01:07  <andythenorth> a FIRS industry conversion compiled first time :P
13:06:45  <andythenorth> 30 open FIRS tickets :P
13:07:28  <andythenorth> closed 8 this weekend :P
13:18:15  <peter1138> so, anyone collect hornby model railway stuff?
13:18:36  <Pinkbeast> My dad used to, if that's any help. :-/
13:19:12  <peter1138> i have box of it
13:19:19  <peter1138> which i never use
13:19:23  <peter1138> so i wanna get rid of it
13:19:35  <Pinkbeast> Ah, I see.
13:19:56  <peter1138> and an HST in original box
13:20:21  <andythenorth> must be some train nerds here?
13:20:28  <andythenorth> or save it for your kids?
13:20:29  <andythenorth> :P
13:20:38  <peter1138> nah
13:20:40  <peter1138> got lego for that
13:21:11  <andythenorth> this baby just did a massive burp
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13:38:41  <frosch123> hmm ottd diff settings say "Vehicle running costs" for years..
13:38:49  <frosch123> isn't "cost" one of those words without plural?
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13:44:34  <Superuser> Found an error in an original string
13:44:35  <Superuser>
13:44:48  <Superuser> You can have multiple NewGRFs that affect industry, not just one. Remove the 'a'
13:45:00  <Superuser> And yes, I did say I'm very pedantic with my corrections :)
13:45:12  <frosch123> usually you only have one :p
13:45:20  <Superuser> but you can have more :P
13:45:21  <frosch123> (counting "ecs" as one)
13:45:30  <frosch123> i don't know any
13:45:42  <Superuser> well, I guess technically you can, so...
13:46:25  <Superuser> I have not tried it though unless some server had more than one and I wasn't aware of it (I usually am not aware of a server configuration unless it's spelt out for me, lol
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13:52:05  <frosch123> damn... my google cookies totally screw my searches
13:52:17  <frosch123> everytime i search a train term, the first hit is ottd wiki
13:52:31  <frosch123> or other tt related sites
13:52:41  <Superuser> it's called the filter buble. It's the reason I don't use Google Search anymore (unless I really have to)
13:52:57  <Superuser>
13:52:57  <frosch123> so, does someone have a more official name for roro stations? (in constrast to terminus station) which i could use in the settings gui?
13:53:36  <Superuser> A more illustrated guide:
13:53:40  <peter1138> frosch123, no, costs is valid.
13:53:46  <Superuser> ^ That's the search engine I use btw
13:54:22  <peter1138> ("costed" is wrong, but i don't think we use that)
13:57:50  <Alberth> true :)
13:58:06  <frosch123> Superuser: even that directs me to ottd when searching "roro station" :p
13:59:12  <frosch123> well, i will use "non-terminus" then
13:59:58  <Superuser> Alberth, what do you think of the string I spoke about above? I remember you fixed a minor error I pointed out a while back.
14:00:44  <peter1138>
14:02:00  <frosch123> hmm, looks i am unable to give an unbiased description of the disaster setting :p
14:02:18  <Alberth> Superuser: I see "a" as "any", ie it does not exclude the option to have more industry newgrfs
14:03:21  <Alberth> like "you get books from a book shop" does not exclude the option of visiting several book shops to get all your books
14:03:43  <Superuser> I guess, but the previous translator did not realise this and translated 'a' to 'one (because there is no such thing as an ambiguous 'a' in Greek and probably in most languages)
14:04:03  <Superuser> I wouldn't doubt that many other translations are incorrect due to this upstream ambiguity
14:04:36  <Alberth> Superuser: all spoken languages are ambiguous, no matter how you phrase things
14:05:04  <Superuser> It is upstream's responsibility to remove these ambiguities though.
14:05:04  <Alberth> that's why we have judges :p
14:05:34  <peter1138> it's the translators job to not mis-translate ;p
14:06:14  <Alberth> Superuser: In English, it's correct. We don't speak most languages that have translations, so we cannot even find such mistakes.
14:07:01  <Superuser> as you wish :'-(
14:07:04  <Alberth> ie you can change the English version, but some other translator will translatae that wrong as well
14:07:39  <Alberth> become a translator too, and fix the error would be my advice
14:08:37  <Superuser> you know I *am* a tranlator right, and that I've modified at least 300 strings in the past week or two?
14:08:53  <Superuser> Don't you see 'Evropi' *every day* in the latest automatic commit?
14:09:03  <Flygon> Oh snap
14:09:04  <Superuser> :P
14:09:05  <Alberth> sorry, I didn't know
14:09:25  * frosch123 is currently about to remove about 30 translations from every language :p
14:10:13  <Alberth> and no, I don't even look at the translation commits, as I cannot read them anyway, and the system is ensuring technical correctness
14:11:29  <Superuser> There is a feed that comes up at about 0:00 BST if I'm not mistaken, you can see my name there :)
14:11:34  <Superuser> in the IRC
14:12:15  <Alberth> thank you for providing the translation :)
14:13:02  <Superuser> thanks for providing a badass game :)
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14:18:59  <frosch123> <- here you have a chance to correct strings before they are added :p
14:21:03  <Superuser> I dunno, I think OpenTTD is leaning ever more towards feature creep
14:21:12  <Superuser> It's slowly becoming Simutrans
14:21:22  <Superuser> not sure if I agree with that :(
14:21:32  <Flygon> Could always make two versions
14:22:31  <drac_boy> Superuser how?
14:22:41  <Superuser> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_RECESSIONS :Recessions: {STRING2} -----> probability of recessions occuring?
14:23:07  <frosch123> its a bool setting, on/off
14:23:14  <frosch123> btw. none of those settings are new
14:23:22  <frosch123> they are the current difficulty settings
14:24:03  <Superuser> yeah, I generally avoid the advanced settings menu hahaha
14:24:31  <frosch123> you won't get around it in ottd 1.3 :p
14:24:39  <frosch123> but it got better
14:25:06  <Superuser> I don't want to do the ADOM thing (I read the manual for it before I played it; it took me two hours to read it) (ADOM is a huge roguelike game)
14:25:37  * drac_boy has everything set up manually in ttdpatch.cfg anyway ... :P
14:25:40  <drac_boy> heh
14:26:17  <Alberth> frosch123:  Maximum amount a company can loan (without inflation)     <--    (without taking inflaction into account)   ?
14:26:17  <frosch123> there should be a movie, like the last mohican, but with drac_boy
14:26:19  <Superuser> STR_CONFIG_SETTING_DISASTERS_HELPTEXT :Enable disasters which might occasionally block or destroy vehicles or infrastructure -----> 'might' to 'may' (
14:26:33  <drac_boy> frosch123?
14:26:43  <frosch123> drac_boy: "the last ttdp user"
14:26:55  <drac_boy> I doubt that
14:27:05  <Alberth> frosch123:   :Enable disasters    <--  Toggle   ?
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14:40:51  <andythenorth> 27 open FIRS tickets o_O
14:41:09  <Alberth> running out of things to do? :)
14:41:18  <andythenorth> hardly :)
14:41:54  <andythenorth> dan has drawn replacements for most of default industries
14:42:06  <andythenorth> among other things ;)
14:42:34  <Alberth> nice, having some default industries was quite confusing to me ;)
14:43:14  <andythenorth> interesting
14:43:24  <andythenorth> I thought they would aid learning :o
14:47:28  <frosch123> andythenorth: when you are done with firs, you can continue with ottd osx bugs :) you have a fair chance to get the number of osx specific bugs below the number of win specific bugs :p
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14:47:48  <frosch123> you should value that historical chance :)
14:47:54  <andythenorth> o_O
14:48:05  <andythenorth> I have little chance of success :P
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14:48:43  <Superuser> why not just compile wit mingw and the equivalent under Mac
14:48:44  <frosch123> alternatively you can ofc find more win specific bugs :p
14:49:02  <Superuser> that would solve 99% of your win-specific problems infa 100%
14:49:19  <drac_boy> heh
14:49:40  <frosch123> Superuser: we do not count the mingw specific bugs
14:49:57  <Superuser> that's because you compile with MSVC...
14:50:21  <frosch123> it is the reason we have separate win32 and win9x builds
14:50:36  <frosch123> with the win9x build lacking various features
14:52:08  <Superuser> fuck win9x, who uses that anyway? It is 12 years ago now since ME was released (the last in line before NT)
14:52:40  <andythenorth> flyspray has no search filter for OS?
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14:53:33  <frosch123> osx tasks are tagged in the title
14:53:40  <frosch123> not all windows tasks yet thouzgh
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14:54:29  <drac_boy> Superuser actually I use the 9x build for all windows computers
14:54:41  <Superuser> why? Testing?
14:54:49  <frosch123> maybe we can also add a [boring] task for stuff like fs#5209
14:54:49  <drac_boy> nope
14:54:54  <Alberth> compability with ttdp :p
14:54:56  <frosch123> thought that might offense people :p
14:55:01  <Superuser> What is ttdp?
14:55:03  <frosch123> or may? :p
14:55:22  <drac_boy> Superuser I do it that way because that way I don't have to explain the silly useless 'unable to find ___' errors
14:55:34  <drac_boy> I wish they would had not split the builds at 0.6 but meh whatever
14:55:35  <Superuser> well, I guess it's okay as long as it doesn't affect other systems
14:55:57  <andythenorth> 12 open
14:56:00  <andythenorth> for OS X
14:57:31  <andythenorth> hmm
14:58:35  <andythenorth> some of the OS X issues have a lot of attached patches
14:58:43  <andythenorth> I guess they need testing?
15:00:07  <Zuu> drac_boy: Since 1.2, OpenTTD will offer to download OpenGFX if it can't be found. Eg. even if you use the zip and not the installer, OpenTTD can in most cases grab the minimum data files to start up.
15:08:37  <drac_boy> thats not the issue zuu
15:08:42  <drac_boy> its not the grf.. its the system files
15:09:38  <ntoskrnl> drac_boy: do you mean the msvcr libraries?
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15:53:48  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i'm coming from outside and have to think of Belugas for some reason
15:57:32  <andythenorth> schnee?
15:57:50  <Sturmi> you can keep yours
16:18:55  <peter1138> don't think of Belugas, he's mine
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17:59:05  * Rubidium wonders whether Eddi saw white whale swimming in the street ;)
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18:03:40  <Mister_Argent> 'ello.
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18:45:29  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24778 /trunk/src/lang (4 files in 2 dirs) (2012-12-02 18:45:22 UTC)
18:45:30  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:31  <DorpsGek> basque - 20 changes by lutxiketa
18:45:32  <DorpsGek> greek - 115 changes by Evropi
18:45:33  <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 1 changes by Stabilitronas
18:45:34  <DorpsGek> luxembourgish - 53 changes by Phreeze
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19:25:11  <NGC3982> Evening, gents and mormons.
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19:28:49  <andythenorth> I wish to announce that the game is unrealistic, and that this is a problem
19:29:46  <frosch123> arctic is more realistic than the other climates
19:29:52  <frosch123> it has snow
19:30:19  <FLHerne> andythenorth: The answer is to make it more realistic. Your grfs help with that :-)
19:30:22  <andythenorth> apparently the snow is not realistic enough
19:30:36  <NGC3982> Yey, snow.
19:30:48  <NGC3982> What is unrealistic?
19:30:57  <andythenorth> pixels
19:31:05  <andythenorth> pixels are very unrealistic
19:31:21  <andythenorth> are pixels actually rectangular / square?
19:31:34  <andythenorth> or do they have ragged edges?
19:32:57  <NGC3982> Pixels are a great way to simulate reality. arbitrary points of building blocks actually exist in real life.
19:33:20  <NGC3982> +A
19:35:08  <NGC3982> The only thing that differs is size and charge. Just like formations of matter, the visible part of a pixel is not square or circular.
19:35:21  <NGC3982> So, I would very much say s
19:35:34  <NGC3982> that pixels are realistic*
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19:38:03  <NGC3982> ..If that was a serious thought at all.
19:38:32  <frosch123> pixels are very realistic
19:38:38  <frosch123> the world is made of small particles
19:39:14  <frosch123> flat screens are unrealsitic though, if they force pixels to be rectangular
19:40:12  <Eddi|zuHause> pixels were more round-ish on tube monitors :)
19:40:21  <NGC3982> :-P
19:40:33  <frosch123> what about ink and laser jets?
19:41:02  <Sturmi> doesnt everything roundish belong to apple?
19:41:10  <NGC3982> Why would rectangular shapes of matter be unrealistic?
19:42:13  * NGC3982 should not stretch it that far.
19:42:43  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: rectangles are not differentiable
19:43:11  <Eddi|zuHause> which makes them awfully un-physical
19:43:48  <NGC3982> It's mandatory in agpwptajapatgmm
19:43:52  <NGC3982> ..
19:44:57  <Eddi|zuHause> english only...
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19:47:07  <NGC3982> Sorry, my mobile phone did not recognise chrystalisation.
19:47:35  <frosch123> :p
19:47:37  <NGC3982> Bah, IRC on Android sucks.
19:48:02  <peter1138> irc without a real keyboard sucks
19:48:21  <NGC3982> Specially in combination with a bumpy train and a lousy connection.
19:48:33  <NGC3982> True.
19:48:42  <NGC3982> Although I
19:49:15  <NGC3982> Ass. Bbl.
19:49:19  <Eddi|zuHause> need speech-to-text-interface
19:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause> (or brain-to-text-interface :))
19:49:55  <frosch123> are you sure that one could handle chrystalisation ? :)
19:51:06  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i'm sure it'll already fail horribly trying to recognize english in foreign accents
19:52:08  <frosch123> are you sure? wouldn't it already cover a lot with england, wales, scottland, australia, us west, us east?
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19:53:10  <Pinkbeast> + Glasgow
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19:56:09  <frosch123> + amdy
19:56:12  <frosch123> + andy
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20:03:41  <andythenorth> I already have brain-to-text interface
20:03:46  <andythenorth> I think nonsense, and it appears here
20:03:49  <andythenorth> works perfectly
20:05:20  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Is it called 'fingers'? :D
20:05:54  <frosch123> is there is a chance to file a patent on it?
20:05:59  <frosch123> *still
20:09:35  <Eddi|zuHause> patent fingers?
20:09:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure you can get that patented :)
20:14:20  <andythenorth> as far as I can tell it's just magic
20:15:07  <frosch123> darn, magic is likely already patented
20:17:16  <SpComb> This patent describes a neurological process for ...
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20:53:16  <drac_boy> hi
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21:27:02  <NGC3982> There we are
21:27:15  <NGC3982> Seriosly, my fingers are not compatible with Irssi Connectbot.
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21:28:11  <Bad_Brett> Good evening
21:29:22  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Re: Rectangles. As far as i know, rectangles are mandatory in chrystalisation, and is a product of the golden ratio (hence, "the golden triangle").
21:29:51  <NGC3982> But i guess it's un-natural enough to conjugate that rectangular pixels are un-natural.
21:30:26  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: that's not a rectangle, but four points that happen to have special distances
21:31:09  <NGC3982> Ok
21:31:13  <NGC3982> Ah
21:31:23  <NGC3982> I think i understand the difference, yes.
21:31:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant "rectangle" as in the area or the edges, not the corners
21:31:54  <NGC3982> I see.
21:32:33  <Eddi|zuHause> of course singular points are always differentiable in all directions that they have an expansion (i.e. none) :)
21:32:40  <NGC3982> You mean: The natural use of rectangles are simply four dots with straight lines, indipendent of each other?
21:32:48  <NGC3982> Since that seems very logical.
21:35:32  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: mathematically speaking, topological deformations of the 1-Sphere in a non-hilbert norm are probably "bad"
21:35:58  <NGC3982> Ok
21:36:03  * NGC3982 needs to google that.
21:36:06  <NGC3982>!
21:36:10  <NGC3982> Here's a cat with a camera on it.
21:36:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that reminds me of "i need to focu... oh a butterfly"
21:38:52  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: a hilbert-space is a vector-space with a scalar product. a norm induces a scalar product if it satisfies the "parallelogram equation"
21:39:24  <Eddi|zuHause> ||a+b||^2+||a-b||^2 = 2||a||^2+2||b||^2
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21:39:38  <NGC3982> Yes, i'm about to google that.
21:39:42  <NGC3982> Though, a follow up question.
21:40:01  <Eddi|zuHause> (in such spaces you can talk about orthogonality and stuff)
21:40:32  * NGC3982 holds the question and keeps reading.
21:41:27  <NGC3982> I wish i knew as much of mathematics as i do of astronomy.
21:41:41  <NGC3982> Since that formula did not tell me anything, at all.
21:41:45  <Eddi|zuHause> if you take the |R^2 as example, then the 1-Norm and the inf-Norm, which produce "squares" as 1-sphere, do not suffice this equation, but the 2-Norm (euclidean norm) does
21:41:56  * NGC3982 knows David Hilbert trough his hotel, though.
21:42:13  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: a+b and a-b are the diagonals of a parallelogram, a and b are the edges
21:42:33  <NGC3982> Ok
21:42:47  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you take the square over all 4 edges, it equals the square over the diagonals
21:43:43  <NGC3982> I'll complete the swedish wiki entry, and i'll come back to nag you with questions, since i found this very interesting.
21:44:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and the 1-sphere is the set of all points with distance < 1 to the origin
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22:00:06  <Terkhen> good night
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22:19:22  <frosch123> lol... some guy reported some win8 issues during the beta (may)... now i asked him back whether they still apply and he answered he is using linux now :p
22:19:36  <Bad_Brett> haha
22:21:44  <FLHerne> Win8 is the best release ever - for Linux lovers :D
22:23:43  <Bad_Brett> it's a close all though...
22:23:50  <Bad_Brett>
22:24:59  <Bad_Brett> *call
22:26:35  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: This Wiki made me sweat.
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22:40:38  <Nat_aS> Bad_Brett: what about vista?
22:41:12  <Bad_Brett> hehe... yeah that's a good one as well
22:41:38  <Nat_aS> Any even numbered windows version is good for linux
22:41:40  <Nat_aS> :p
22:42:03  <Bad_Brett> though i personally didn't have that many problems with it, as soon as i deactivated all the stupid default settings
22:42:05  <Nat_aS> (2000 is not even numbered, because that's it's name not version number)
22:42:12  <Nat_aS> vista or 8?
22:42:14  <Bad_Brett> it was actually more stable than XP for me
22:42:20  <Nat_aS> hrm rly?
22:42:21  <Bad_Brett> vista
22:42:27  <Bad_Brett> yes
22:42:29  <Nat_aS> vista was fine if you had a good computer
22:42:51  <Nat_aS> if you look at it one way, vista is the reason everyone has 8gigs of ram now
22:43:00  <Nat_aS> (when you only need like, one to run 7 lol)
22:43:33  <Nat_aS> actualy, my netbook was running windows 7 just fine with 512
22:43:43  <Nat_aS> It was slow because of the processor though
22:43:49  <Nat_aS> I upgraded the ram to 1 gig
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22:43:53  <Nat_aS> and nothing changed
22:44:04  <Nat_aS> so windows has gotten really memory efficant since vista
22:44:10  <Bad_Brett> yeah
22:44:18  <Nat_aS> even though now people buy 8 gigs just because they can, and because they remember vista
22:45:06  <Bad_Brett> i didn't have any memory problems with vista (after i had deactivated hundreds of stupid default settings) :)
22:45:10  <Nat_aS> they think memory will make there computer go faster, but really the only thing that can make it go faster is the CPU and the HDD
22:45:16  <Nat_aS> everything else is a bottleneck
22:45:32  <frosch123> the hdd is not the bottleneck when compiling ottd
22:45:35  <Nat_aS> but once you open the bottleneck, it's up to the CPU to actualy make things go fast
22:45:39  <Nat_aS> lol
22:45:46  <Nat_aS> well when people say "My computer is slow"
22:45:48  <Nat_aS> these days
22:45:54  <drac_boy> I only did xppro from ms for some time .. but now finally can't be bothered with ms anymore .. if anyone asked me for a pc as usual they only have the choice of linux alone
22:45:54  <Nat_aS> it's because they need an SSD
22:45:57  <drac_boy> but then mm
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22:46:06  <Nat_aS> or at least a HDD with more than 5000rpm
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22:46:15  <Bad_Brett> it depends
22:46:18  <Nat_aS> people just buy big HDDs, instead of fast ones
22:46:24  <Nat_aS> processors are rediclious now
22:46:32  <Nat_aS> unless you want a whimpy netbook one
22:47:08  <Bad_Brett> if you create a lot of 3d graphics/music the ram is actually the bottleneck in many cases
22:47:34  <Bad_Brett> the memory usage goes up to 100% and then the computer crashes :P
22:47:55  <frosch123> the ram is also not the bottleneck when compiling ottd
22:48:13  <frosch123> you guys just do wrong things with your computer
22:48:32  <Bad_Brett> no no
22:48:32  <Nat_aS> yes, but most users don't do that
22:48:40  <frosch123> but they should
22:48:45  <frosch123> the world would be a better place
22:48:48  <Nat_aS> unless you are an artist, you don't need more than 2 gigs
22:48:55  <Nat_aS> lots of people think they are artists though
22:49:02  <Nat_aS> and spend tons of money on memory
22:49:13  <frosch123> i have 2 gig per core, is that ok as non-artist?
22:49:14  <drac_boy> mind you one of the build I'm working on now has a pny quadro card in it only because of wanting some good opengl support .. which the intel gma seem to be a bit short on
22:49:19  <frosch123> or am i an artist?
22:49:37  <FLHerne> Nat_aS: I'm not an artist, and push myself out of 4GB and into swap all too easily :-(
22:49:38  <Bad_Brett> try rendering a higly detailed picture in 3ds max with advanced ray-tracing with  2 gb ram
22:49:54  <Nat_aS> yeah, you need 8 gigs if you are an artist
22:49:55  <Bad_Brett> it will most likely crash
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22:49:59  <frosch123> drac_boy: i also have a quadro, does that make me an artist?
22:50:02  <FLHerne> Bad_Brett: That probably does count as 'artist' :P
22:50:14  <Bad_Brett> yeah i guess :)
22:50:26  <Nat_aS> if you are a regular user, get what the manufacturer lists as default
22:51:16  <drac_boy> frosch123 opengl is more than just artists :p
22:51:43  <frosch123> i only get it because the consumer products all annoyed me with there non-descripive specs
22:51:57  <frosch123> so i went for cheap professional product, as it just said what it does
22:52:16  <drac_boy> frosch123 so what kind of setup do you have?
22:52:26  <frosch123> i just wanted something which could run two digital screens at their full resolution
22:52:42  <frosch123> 1920x1050, and i just could not figure that out for regular cards :p
22:52:55  <drac_boy> heh no I meant the computer itself ;)
22:53:12  <frosch123> while the catalogue for the "professional" products just listing everything i might want to know
22:53:54  <frosch123> drac_boy: 2.5 years old, i5 quadcore
22:54:31  <drac_boy> mm lga775 QC series cpu I'm guessing?
22:54:32  <frosch123> sdd for /usr, hdd for the rest, 2gb per core, ramdisk for ottd objects
22:55:54  <frosch123> is there some way to figure that out via software?
22:56:21  <Nat_aS> whanna know another platau
22:56:24  <Nat_aS> Graphics cards
22:56:28  <drac_boy> well you said you're running linux right frosch123?
22:56:33  <frosch123> yes
22:56:34  <Nat_aS> video game graphics haven't been progressing
22:56:47  <Nat_aS> because consoles are overdue for a generation upgrade
22:56:47  <frosch123> lspci and proc/cpuinfo do not show something like that
22:57:08  <frosch123> "Intel(R) Core(TM) i5 CPU         750  @ 2.67GHz" <- unless that 750 says something
22:57:14  <Nat_aS> and developers don't want to make PC games with drasticly better graphics than there console ports
22:57:30  <Nat_aS> so game graphics haven't changed much since 06
22:57:49  <Nat_aS> so GPUs haven't needed to be upgraded either
22:57:59  <drac_boy> frosch123 hmm well either way not too bad
22:58:11  <drac_boy> I'm working on something thats going to have i3 3220T paired with pny quadro card
22:58:38  <frosch123> pm's 2 year newer computer was 20% faster with compiling ottd iirc
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23:21:55  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:47:27  <Mister_Argent> Argh. only three refineries on the map are clear across the map from my Oilfield/machine shop...
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23:57:00  <MNIM> argh?
23:57:04  <MNIM> you mean WOOOO
23:57:12  <MNIM> 'cus that means payday!
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