Log for #openttd on 14th December 2012:
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00:00:39  <drac_boy> any of you think 40km/h probably is a reasonable minimum speed cutoff for anything to do with 1920+ vehicles that runs on flanges or tires anyway? :)
00:00:44  * drac_boy just had to ask
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01:47:37  <drac_boy> hi Bad_Brett :)
01:47:40  <drac_boy> heh
01:47:50  <Bad_Brett> hey drac_boy!
01:47:54  <Bad_Brett> :D
01:48:35  <drac_boy> how're you?
02:04:42  <Bad_Brett> i'm fine... a bit drunk though. how are you?
02:09:03  <drac_boy> heh...too drunk to read or not? ;)
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02:12:58  <Bad_Brett> nope
02:13:03  <Bad_Brett> :)
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02:16:17  <drac_boy> so just going to sit there till you're finally all sober or what? :P
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02:19:46  <V453000> when you are enhanced you can get various ideas :P
02:21:07  <drac_boy> I doubt that :)
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02:41:30  <drac_boy> so what you doing V453000? :P
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10:55:17  <NGC3982> Morning
10:55:59  <Alberth> moin
10:56:12  <NGC3982> Another boring day to do nothing.
11:02:52  <Alberth> you can't invent something nice to do?
11:04:36  <NGC3982> I did last night, actually
11:04:50  <NGC3982> I made a couple of experiments with electromechanical elements
11:05:10  <NGC3982> The experiment worked out nicely, but the results where horrible.
11:05:32  <NGC3982> 10 centiliters of water, cooled from 23.5 to 11.2 degrees centigrade, in 32 minutes.
11:05:42  <NGC3982> With a 60W peltier.
11:06:26  <NGC3982> Alberth: But yes, i'm determined to complete a 512^2 map with ECS.
11:06:51  <__ln___> Isn't "centigrade" some sillly unitedstatesism?
11:09:37  <NGC3982> Centigrade and celcius is the same thing.
11:09:41  <Alberth> Wikipedia: "Celsius, also known as centigrade..."
11:10:06  <Alberth> and I don't think the US knows about celsius at all :p
11:10:06  <NGC3982> Don't know why i used it instead of celcius, though.
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11:44:34  <drac_boy> hi
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11:51:04  <NGC3982> Ah, there we are
11:51:21  <NGC3982> I noticed, using ECS on a large scale looks impossible without drawn out timetabling
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12:04:05  <drac_boy> NGC3982 mm?
12:04:23  <V453000> that ecs is shit
12:04:30  <V453000> in translation
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12:14:12  <drac_boy> NGC3982 just wondering what you mean about that?
12:17:12  <NGC3982> Well, i noticed that it is much more handy to use timetables and depots, then simply waiting for cargo overflow.
12:20:08  <drac_boy> hm quick question for one of you either way - I know that eg 2'D2 would translate to a 4-8-4 but .. how do you do that for garratts with the plus in middle? eg 0-4-0+0-4-0
12:23:14  <peter1138> B+B
12:23:40  <drac_boy> oh so just leave it the
12:23:42  <drac_boy> thanks
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12:25:22  <drac_boy> I don't quite understand the entire UIC system yet after all :->
12:27:31  <drac_boy> at least I figured out that 'h' is superheated and 'n' isnt
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12:51:28  <peter1138>
12:51:34  <peter1138> not really hard to find
12:52:00  <Alberth> V453000:     Trying to attach a coal wagon, it is not allowed, but I don't understand why
12:54:01  <drac_boy> peter problem is garratts aren't same as mallets technically
12:54:37  <Alberth> hmm, perhaps the opengfx+ trains are messing up
12:55:29  <drac_boy> Alberth thats NUTS isn't it?
12:55:38  <Alberth> yep
12:56:11  <drac_boy> I still remember seeing the earlier locomotives list....that remind me I should check if thered any updated ones
12:56:13  <Alberth> the error is at least from it
12:56:15  * drac_boy found some of the names silly
12:56:53  <Alberth> drac_boy: it beats "loco1", "loco2", ...   :)
12:57:31  <drac_boy> :P
13:04:18  <drac_boy> that reminds me I still wonder if "road unit" is an american term or not
13:10:11  <efess> As an american, I've never heard of "road unit"
13:10:45  <drac_boy> efess well it was more or less from the early diesels
13:11:28  <michi_cc> Alberth: My guess: The coal wagon is from OGFX+ and V's philosophy is incomatible with mixing.
13:12:02  <drac_boy> switcher was something like eg SW600 which usually dealt with short distance spottings ... but road switcher was more toward the baldwin units which could do both switching and mainline running altogether ... and road unit well yeah just the mainline
13:12:32  <Alberth> michi_cc: sounds plausible, so the only problem is the somewhat difficult to interpret error message :)
13:12:36  <drac_boy> many of the early terms became a bit obsoleted with the General Purpose .. or as some people still like to call them - geeps
13:13:53  <drac_boy> efess of course there was the other thing that as far as I know was only done by Lima ... 'transfer units' .. basically lot of horsepower through six axles with low gearings ... they were good at clearing out the yard only to dump it into another yard :)
13:14:01  <drac_boy> or like they say "everything but the kitchen sink"
13:14:23  <drac_boy> again MUed geeps obsoleted these particular specialized locomotives tho as usual
13:16:45  <drac_boy> alberth could be it wasn't meant to be mixed with other grfs? I don't know :p
13:17:23  <Alberth> drac_boy: perhaps, but shouldn't it say that more explicitly then?
13:17:43  <drac_boy> do it have to? you're not really supposed to mix full grfs together anyway are you?
13:18:08  <Alberth> how is it a full grf?  it contains only trains
13:18:25  <Alberth> and it does not protest when adding the opengfx+ trains
13:19:21  <Alberth> At the time of trying I was not even aware I had a wagon of another newgrf
13:31:25  <drac_boy> sorry was busy trying to figure out **** UIC as usual
13:31:35  <drac_boy> you have a point there alberth
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13:54:00  <NGC3982> Hm, let's see
13:54:03  <NGC3982> In ECS:
13:54:17  <NGC3982> Shouldn't transported and produced amounts of coal increase?
13:55:26  <drac_boy> what you mean? did you wait a few months already anyway?
14:02:41  <Terkhen> hello
14:03:21  <drac_boy> hi Terkhen
14:03:24  <drac_boy> had any good sleep? ;)
14:03:48  <Terkhen> not really, but that does not matter because it's already weekend for me
14:03:57  <Terkhen> I'll sleep as much as I want tomorrow :P
14:05:55  <MNIM> NGC3982: I think you need higher % transported
14:06:34  <MNIM> have you tried feeder systems?
14:07:32  <NGC3982> No, not yet. Like busses?
14:07:53  <MNIM> I use trams, but yeah
14:07:54  <NGC3982> With full load?
14:07:58  <MNIM> Nope
14:08:11  <MNIM> that might actually be part of your problem.
14:08:36  <MNIM> Full load is good for running a profit, not so good for increasing production
14:08:52  <NGC3982> Oh
14:08:56  <drac_boy> MNIM actually I've used full load all the times and still manage to get close to 80% at times
14:09:02  <NGC3982> My impression was the opposite.
14:09:05  <drac_boy> the problem not use long trains :)
14:09:10  <MNIM> drac_boy: depebds how you do it, eh
14:09:16  <NGC3982> So, having the trains where they are, and a non-full load tram feeder?
14:11:26  <NGC3982> Ill try it.
14:11:32  <NGC3982> Oh wait.
14:11:47  <NGC3982> Transported has a literal meaning?
14:12:04  <NGC3982> Not on how much trains i have waiting, but how many trains leave?
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14:13:40  <NGC3982> Well yeah, that seems to work.
14:13:42  <NGC3982> Thanks.
14:13:53  <MNIM> %transported refers to how much has left the station, is my understanding
14:17:43  <MNIM> Here, let me show you my system on one of my most succesful stations: (WARNING unresized screenshot)
14:18:03  <MNIM> As you can see, I need to upgrade transport capacity. again.
14:21:41  <NGC3982> nice tram :)
14:22:27  <NGC3982> Nice*
14:23:16  <NGC3982> MNIM:
14:23:18  <NGC3982> First try.
14:23:23  <NGC3982> A bit sloppy, but it seems to work.
14:23:29  <NGC3982> I don't have trams yet.
14:23:42  <NGC3982> Feeder systems like that are so ugly :(.
14:23:45  <NGC3982> At least your's look good.
14:28:49  <drac_boy> correct me if I'm wrong but locomotive with multiply hp ranges is rather impossible to code yet?
14:32:41  <NGC3982> "hp ranges"?
14:33:25  <__ln___> what a failure this HBO Nordic is beginning to look like...
14:34:57  <NGC3982> __ln___: How is that? It seems to work nicely around here, so far.
14:36:11  <drac_boy> NGC3982 sorry heh .. not sure how to word it...
14:36:16  <__ln___> NGC3982: mandatory 12-month contract. no HD content on PC or Mac. no client for any game console.
14:36:39  <NGC3982> drac_boy: ;-)
14:36:43  <NGC3982> __ln___: Sweet jesus.
14:36:50  <NGC3982> 12 month lockups are shit
14:37:22  <NGC3982> Why does companies like these have such a hard time with monthly subscriptions
14:37:28  <NGC3982> Like Spotify
14:37:36  <NGC3982> Don't pay, don't use. Pay? Use.
14:37:57  <drac_boy> one large example i can give you tho NGC3982 is multi-engine gensets ... eg three 600hp engines .. can run with single 600hp for light jobs but have 1800hp to deal with heavy cuts or simply for running at fast schedule on the open line
14:38:19  <NGC3982> __ln___: What's the english word for Inkasso.
14:38:21  <__ln___> Yet Netflix has a monthly subscription, HD content on PC and Mac, client for all three game consoles.
14:38:32  <NGC3982> drac_boy: Ah, like half traction?
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14:39:07  <NGC3982> __ln___: The thing is, locking people up in periods sucks ass even for companies. Collection fees (inkasso and similar) are -never- profitable.
14:39:09  <drac_boy> well traction is still same, its just the hp that has changed? but mm yeah
14:39:16  <NGC3982> And being locked up is very ..bad PR.
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14:39:36  <Rouche> hi all
14:39:39  <Rouche> Salut
14:39:44  <NGC3982> drac_boy: I think i understand.
14:39:53  <Terkhen> hi Rouche
14:39:56  <NGC3982> __ln___: Sorry, but that shit got me winded up.
14:40:08  <__ln___> NGC3982: something like "debt collection"?
14:40:14  <NGC3982> Yeah
14:40:18  <Rouche> who want to play OpenTDD now ?
14:40:28  <NGC3982> I fail to see how that is useful
14:40:49  <drac_boy> mind you when they initially tested the uk Deltic locomotive they ran it twice on the same route, once with one engine only and again with both engines on. interestingly enough it didn't suffer too much with the single engine but then again it was fresh out of the shop with an empty test train tho
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14:41:08  <NGC3982> The Spotify (and as it seems, Netflix) model is to simply let people use what they pay. They can save huge man hours on dept collection and -lot's- of bad PR due to angry customers.
14:43:37  <__ln___> NGC3982: btw, it might be that "winded up" -> "wound up".
14:44:16  <NGC3982> Yes
14:44:19  <NGC3982> Old watchmaker habit.
14:44:42  <drac_boy> for now I guess only a diesel-battery locomotive could work..just give it almost zero runcost when idle :)
14:44:59  <NGC3982> Most of our companies in our outsourcer projects have changed to "Spotify-ish" models of payment, by the way.
14:45:40  <NGC3982> Instead of monthly products being sent with invoice, a single invoice is sent a month before the actual product. No pay, no product.
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14:45:55  <NGC3982> No dept collection, no bad PR, and no [curse word] fuzz.
14:46:38  <drac_boy> heh
14:47:03  <NGC3982> Back in the nineties and early 2000, dept collection could be partialy profitable in Scandinavia (and specially in Finland and Norway), but new (and sensible) law changes makes it more, and more expencive.
14:47:22  <NGC3982> In fact, as far as i know, dept collection cannot be profitable by legal definition in Finland.
14:48:19  <NGC3982> Expensive*
14:48:30  <NGC3982> Partially*
14:49:52  <NGC3982> MNIM: The transported % quite quickly decreased again.
14:50:08  <NGC3982> MNIM: Even though, i can't see that the coal production has really increased.
14:50:24  <MNIM> hmmmmh
14:50:41  <NGC3982> And as you can see, i have buffed up the trains. :P
14:51:11  <NGC3982> It might be that the small increase in production was enough to lower the production level.
14:51:23  <MNIM> hmmmmmmh, shouldn't be
14:51:33  <MNIM> how much is waiting at drunway south?
14:51:44  <NGC3982> Nothing.
14:52:02  <NGC3982> It might go up to 15-30 tonnes while there is a gap between the trucks.
14:52:15  <NGC3982> Should i try adding more trucks, or even build a new feeder?
14:52:17  <MNIM> Do you use 'load if available' -> 'transfer and leave empty' orders?
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14:52:43  <NGC3982> I use transfer, but not load if available.
14:52:50  <NGC3982> I don't use any load parameter.
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14:52:58  <MNIM> eh, yeah, that's the default :P
14:53:01  <NGC3982> Oh
14:53:04  <NGC3982> That's the default
14:53:25  <MNIM> hmmmmh. so the trucks are empty if they come back?
14:53:37  <NGC3982> Come back?
14:53:52  <NGC3982> Yes, when returning to Drunway South, they are empty.
14:54:04  <NGC3982> Either by transfer, or by the fact that they didn't pic anything up.
14:54:19  <MNIM> hmmmmh. then I can think of only one other possible explanation, do you use fluctuating economies?
14:55:05  <MNIM> could be that the production naturally decreased again due to dropping economy. in that case, production should go up again soon.
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14:55:51  <NGC3982> I have no idea.
14:55:57  <NGC3982> I see.
14:56:02  <NGC3982> I'm at 67% transported now.
14:56:41  <NGC3982>
14:57:21  <MNIM> hmmmh, I see production dropped even further again. :/
14:57:47  <MNIM> oddd.
14:59:24  <NGC3982> Let's try this: Two feeder stations, one with full load and one without.
15:01:54  <NGC3982> Yeah, that works.
15:02:56  <NGC3982>
15:03:01  <NGC3982> It looks ugly, but it seems to work.
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15:33:37  <NGC3982>
15:33:40  <NGC3982> Acceptable? ;)
15:35:06  <__ln___> looks 404 to me
15:35:13  <__ln___> oh, not anymore
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15:58:03  <andythenorth> doom is fricking awesome
15:58:13  * andythenorth is on a nostalgia trip again
15:58:24  <andythenorth> maybe I have to get a wad editor? o_O
15:59:06  <NGC3982> Doom <3.
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15:59:54  * Rubidium is trying to do that as well... but with colobot
16:01:08  <andythenorth> ho ho
16:01:13  <andythenorth> something new :)
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16:06:21  <V453000> Alberth: NUTS engines only work with NUTS wagons, no others
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16:11:54  <andythenorth> neat
16:11:57  <andythenorth> narrow gauge
16:12:53  <V453000> looks like random train with wood to me :P
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16:58:12  <Alberth> V453000: ok, perhaps you could improve the error message?
16:59:49  <V453000> I guess that would be suitable
17:03:21  <Alberth> thank you :)
17:05:54  <V453000> nothing to thank for :) thanks for your suggestion
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18:33:36  <NGC3982> That looks nice.
18:33:51  <NGC3982> A good old mult.
18:44:45  <V453000> Alberth: Can only attach cargo engines or NUTS cargo wagons. I suppose it can be as simple as that?
18:45:01  <V453000> hm well it applies to engines as well
18:45:22  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24820 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt polish.txt) (2012-12-14 18:45:14 UTC)
18:45:23  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:24  <DorpsGek> czech - 7 changes by TheLamer
18:45:25  <DorpsGek> polish - 5 changes by wojteks86
18:46:18  <Alberth> I did not realize it was a wagon from another newgrf, so for me "cannot attach a wagon from another NewGRF" would have helped
18:46:37  <Alberth> but perhaps that's not good enough in general
18:47:14  <V453000> right
18:47:18  <V453000> hm
18:47:36  <V453000> the issue is, there are many train class attach rules in NUTS itself
18:47:50  <V453000> which are ofc more important for the error message
18:48:28  <V453000> im just considering to add a "Can only attach NUTS vehicles" or something similar to another line
18:55:42  <V453000> im pretty sure readme mentions it though :PP
18:55:49  <V453000> ... ehm the 10k characters readme
18:56:37  <V453000> I should probably write a more descriptive guide on NUTS and then make an actually useful readme which would be actually readable
18:56:53  <V453000> nobody reads this much shit, if they actually are nice enough to even open the readme
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19:03:54  <andythenorth> is everyone bloody shopping?  My internet is insanely slow again
19:04:25  <Alberth> hi andy
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19:09:11  <Terkhen> see you tomorrow
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19:10:21  <Alberth> moin
19:11:06  <andythenorth> qu*k
19:11:44  <V453000> moo
19:11:57  <frosch123> hai :)
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19:22:32  <andythenorth> ho ho
19:22:39  <andythenorth> 956k downloads of grfs I've made
19:22:51  <andythenorth> better than 0 I guess :)
19:24:10  <Alberth> almost 1kk !
19:24:20  <V453000> 956k? :D wow
19:25:24  <andythenorth> all versions
19:25:34  <andythenorth> it's not 956k individual users ;)
19:27:49  <V453000> still
19:28:20  <V453000> lol what I have 42k
19:28:40  <V453000> I understand how do you have 950k then :)
19:29:05  <Alberth> make more newgrfs :)
19:29:14  <frosch123> when will andy surpass ottd? :p
19:29:19  <andythenorth> hmm
19:30:11  <andythenorth> I have 5.7k hg revs
19:30:18  <andythenorth> ottd is 25k?
19:30:53  <NGC3982> andythenorth: That's fantastic.
19:31:02  <NGC3982> Time well spent, then?
19:31:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: that's interesting, your ratio of downloads per revision matches the one of ottd :)
19:32:11  <frosch123> @calc 950/5.7
19:32:11  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 166.666666667
19:32:19  <andythenorth> players just tick all, right?
19:32:19  <frosch123> @calc 4630/25
19:32:20  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 185.2
19:32:35  <andythenorth> biab
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19:32:46  <frosch123> @calc 4000/25
19:32:46  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 160
19:32:55  <frosch123> i should not count ogfx and friends :)
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19:52:09  <FLHerne> Alberth: I was looking at the other channel, do you mean that 'don't open windows for cloned vehicles' thing?
19:52:49  <Alberth> yes
19:54:37  <FLHerne> That thing seems to be the most obvious one-line patch not to have been added yet :P
19:54:48  <FLHerne> Would save me a lot of closing windows
19:55:06  <FLHerne> Especially with RVs, which tend to require large quanties
19:55:30  <Alberth> but it was added
19:55:32  <frosch123> FLHerne: it has been added
19:55:41  <FLHerne> Yay!
19:55:42  <frosch123> and the patch on flyspray was not multiplayer safe
19:55:43  <Alberth> just use backspace :p
19:55:49  <frosch123> so, even if it was only one line, it was wrong
19:56:33  <FLHerne> Well, now I'm fractionally more cheerful :-)
19:57:02  <frosch123> sorry, was just annoyed about some whiner on fs :)
19:57:37  <frosch123> <- i always wonder whether posting that is offensive :p
20:01:12  <SpComb> whatever was in debian stable three days ago
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20:02:48  <frosch123> i wouldn't even know whether stable is squeeze of wheezy :p
20:02:56  <frosch123> *or
20:03:25  <SpComb> I gather wheezy is still in lets-break-everything-for-multiarch mode
20:04:02  <Rubidium> Jessie!
20:04:17  <Rubidium> wheezy is almost oldstable ;)
20:05:22  <frosch123> maybe they drop wheezy, and try to stabelize jessie instead then
20:05:34  <frosch123> so, squeeze stays :p
20:06:01  <Rubidium> Jessie is stable enough to be declared stable; it's so stable I haven't even seen bug reports for it ;)
20:06:18  <frosch123> you mean the bug reporting tool is broken?
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20:36:18  <Wolf01> o/
20:38:09  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24821 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt newgrf.cpp) (2012-12-14 20:38:02 UTC)
20:38:10  <DorpsGek> -Add: When using a non-release version of OpenTTD and the basegraphics are missing some sprites, also suggest to use a non-release version of the basegraphics.
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21:41:38  <drac_boy> hi
21:43:06  <frosch123> <- i guess displaying the full timestamp of the local timezone is not the right thing to do :p
21:48:02  <Rubidium> maybe use the ls method
21:48:14  <frosch123> time only when today?
21:48:25  <Rubidium> yes, and day/month only when it's this year
21:48:42  <Rubidium> then in the game details show the full date + time
21:49:53  <Rubidium> *maybe* slightly more information/slightly different
21:50:16  <frosch123> strftime only knows %c %x and %X
21:50:23  <Rubidium> day-of-week + time if it was in the last 168 hours
21:50:25  <frosch123> the rest is not locale-dependant
21:50:56  <frosch123> alternatively we could only display the date, and use ottd ingame date format
21:51:03  <Rubidium> day-of-week + day-of-month + month if it was in the last year
21:51:11  <Rubidium> otherwise month + year
21:51:18  <NGC3982>
21:51:22  <NGC3982> Is that alright?
21:51:42  <frosch123> NGC3982: don't put path signals behind junctions
21:52:07  <NGC3982> Like the two signals for the exit?
21:52:08  <frosch123> the exit signals should be in front of the merge junction, not after the exit junction
21:52:09  <__ln___> what do you mean only %c %x %X is locale-dependent?
21:52:20  <glx> path signal MUST be where it's safe to wait
21:52:26  <frosch123> %c is date and time according to LC_TIME
21:52:39  <frosch123> %x and %X are date or time only according to LC_TIME
21:52:54  <NGC3982> I should really be able to remove them all together.
21:53:02  <frosch123> i am not aware of any other way to figure out the various date formats
21:53:20  <frosch123> except using the ottd ingame ones :p
21:53:26  <Rubidium> frosch123: IMO it should use the ingame format
21:53:27  <drac_boy> just wanted to check with someone outside north america but is "steeplecab locomotive" a generic or american term?
21:53:40  <frosch123> Rubidium: that would mean only date, no time
21:54:23  <Rubidium> *unless* we implement the same for times
21:54:46  <Rubidium> which would be beneficial for those timetable/clock-in-game guys
21:54:50  <frosch123> date is only reordering
21:54:56  <frosch123> time has weird thing like 12/24
21:54:58  <Rubidium> and I reckon they already added such things
21:55:07  <frosch123> unless we define 12 as medieval and only use 24 :)
21:58:35  <frosch123> shouldn't they swap day and month?
21:58:52  * NGC3982 removed the signals.
21:59:12  <Rubidium> the departure board thing doesn't have a 12hr clock
21:59:32  <Rubidium> so I guess it'll be easiest to go with a 24hr clock (with only hours and minutes)
22:00:40  <__ln___> 24-hour clock will confuse americans
22:01:50  <frosch123> __ln___: they only play between 00:00 and 11:59 european time anyway
22:03:20  <__ln___> fair enough
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22:32:40  <NGC3982> @calc 30.5775 / 10
22:32:40  <DorpsGek> NGC3982: 3.05775
22:33:13  <NGC3982> @calc 3.05775 * 3.78541
22:33:13  <DorpsGek> NGC3982: 11.5748374275
22:38:15  <drac_boy> just wondring if anyone saw my short question above before?
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22:47:12  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i just was at the christmas party of the company, and when i left i said to the boss "until next christmas"... who thinks that was a stupid idea? :p
22:48:05  <drac_boy> heh no idea :P
22:49:20  <drac_boy> anyway beside steeplecabs .. I'm wondering if theres even anything that can be said about a 2-8-0 verus 4-8-0 from the similar chassis or its really just down to the company's personal preference at purchase time?
22:51:48  <Wolf01> nighty night
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22:52:46  <Eddi|zuHause> 2 axle bogies usually mean better stability at higher speeds
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22:53:43  <Eddi|zuHause> but there are more complicated steering mechanisms with one leading axle that may compensate that as well
22:53:58  <Eddi|zuHause> so the axle scheme doesn't tell the whole story
22:54:09  <drac_boy> hmm I hadn't even thought about that kind of thing at all...thanks
22:55:29  <drac_boy> at least I do know that trailing axles sometimes were for weight spread of the firebox and/or just simply to make it equally as stable in reverse speeds
22:56:06  <drac_boy> nothing like seeing an used 2-6-0 being refitted into an odd looking 2-6-2 due to lighter rails on the new line
22:56:08  <Eddi|zuHause> some of the very early electric engines had axle schemes like 2'C1', and they went much better with the 2 axles in front than the 1 axle
22:56:39  <drac_boy> heh early...that reminds me of a particular article about why the last steam locomotive in north america was actually the GG1
22:56:40  <Eddi|zuHause> (that would be 4-6-2)
22:57:34  <drac_boy> it kinda does make sense in a way tho... it had pony and trailing axles ... cast iron bell ... chassis being built by a steam tender shop ... steam era boiler heater (before that eventually was replaced by diesel era ones) .. and the cab sightline was alike to a steam loco's as well
22:57:46  <drac_boy> (thats what the article writer said)
22:58:05  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the german diesel engines in the 60s had extra steam boilers for heating the train (until electric heating was widespread enough to remove those)
22:58:40  <drac_boy> yeah nothing like a diesel or electric locomotive sitting at the station platform and a quiet chugging coming from inside there :)
23:00:03  <drac_boy> mind you I remember one rather silly photo someone was lucky to take .. it was of a historic DR diesel on head of a special passenger train .. it was throwing out so much white smoke that the photographer jokingly captioned "does it think its actually a steam locomotive?"
23:00:39  <drac_boy> I suspect in reality it was probably just too much pressure buildup in the boiler that it was letting off a long escape
23:01:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the first electric engines (1910-1920 era) first had coal-heated boilers, not sure why they didn't heat them electrically
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23:01:44  <drac_boy> mm i don't know about that one but could it be because the coaches only had steam heat lines alone at the time? (the lights would had been recharged off a single small axle generator in that case)
23:01:57  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i reecently saw one such photo with black smoke
23:02:38  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: allegedly, one of the power units in the diesel engine was broken, so the other one had to produce excessive power to get the train moving
23:02:55  <drac_boy> mind you when the Amfleet (aka modern) coaches first arrived onto Amtrak line ... they had to be coupled with a special "headend power car" to be useable behind the GG1's... I suspect they never designed or wanted to reofit the GG1 with train electric power lines anyway
23:03:50  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: yes, electrically heated wagons were rare at that time (bavaria had some), but if you create steam for heating, it doesn't really matter if the heat comes from coal or from electricity
23:04:11  <drac_boy> UP had some trains that were hauled by modern carbody diesels but the first car in the train was actually a steam boiler "van" built out of an old boxcar
23:04:39  <drac_boy> I know I had seen some photos of french diesel trains with such steam heating car attachment too
23:04:44  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i have never seen one, but germany had special heating cars as well
23:05:56  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes, the steam output of one engine wasn't enough, so they had to have extra heating
23:07:28  <drac_boy> not sure if you want look but thats a home conversion ... take an old F-B unit .. gut a bit of the engine .. shorten fuel tank to add water tank in space .. pull any MU cables out .. and there you go a cheap steam heating car
23:07:47  <drac_boy> they were not that common but still numerous enough to be easy to find somewhere tho
23:10:36  <drac_boy> about outputs....that was why certain trains sometimes seemingly ran with more units than they really needed during winter .. eg just A-A units during summer but soon enough its A-B-A .. then by the time its actually cold its four units even although the consist has not even changed at all
23:10:48  <drac_boy> talk about having four units just to get two small and two large steam boilers for one single train
23:11:23  <drac_boy> the A units did not always have a good boiler due to the cab taking up a lot of space hence why B units more than often were spliced in if a steam car was not used at all
23:11:41  <drac_boy> (as far as I know north america history tidbits...sorry if it bores you!)
23:13:19  <drac_boy> anyway back to axles for a moment...I'm sure I could be wrong but I doubt if there were any locomotives outside north america that actually had three pony and/or trailing axles? like eg 2'D3
23:13:41  <drac_boy> some of these few late usa locomotives just were so big and heavy its not a surprise they had these extra axles
23:14:12  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: there are no such things as "B-units" in germany
23:15:01  <Eddi|zuHause> dual-heading of trains was only done sporadically on short sections of sloped rails
23:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause> only few electric engines were initially refitted with multi-traction controls
23:16:24  <Eddi|zuHause> but then they still had cabs, so they could be used individually as well
23:17:29  <drac_boy> cheating a bit with the turbine but S2 6200 6-8-6 Turbine E14916 b 800x.jpg thats one of the few last locomotives that....came with 3 axles
23:19:00  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause yeah I think the whole F A+B units thing was a north america specific thing .. although I do know that russa have some locomotives that are configured as double and triple units
23:19:09  <drac_boy> russa=russia*
23:20:28  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i think sweden had such things as well
23:21:40  <drac_boy> heres the middle unit on a 3-unit setup obviously :)
23:22:01  <drac_boy> apparently still has a small cab for to still be useable when spliced out
23:22:47  <drac_boy> yeah sweden...I forgot...I think they did have 2-unit locomotives for their iron ore trains
23:22:59  <drac_boy> can't remember..I'm sure I had seen some magazine photos before tho either way
23:25:05  <Eddi|zuHause> the closest to a "B unit" thing is probably this one:
23:25:39  <drac_boy> mm about axles...what I find impressive was that Bombardier actually had to send their electric/diesel locomotive to the Inno train show a few months ago even although it would had killed most european rails with its heavy per-axle weight (it only had Bo'Bo' config)
23:25:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it could theoretically be separated into two individual engines with one cab each, but that was rarely done
23:26:01  <drac_boy> at least I think they thankfully shipped it back 'home' to north america .. and the locomotive was sold to the New Jersey railroad instead
23:26:52  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: what's the axle wheight?
23:27:45  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: most main lines are nowadays allowed for 22.5t
23:27:50  <drac_boy>  thats it
23:28:05  <drac_boy> let me see if I can find the weight number online .. I know I saw it in one of my magazine before either way...
23:28:57  <drac_boy> ah found it online ... 32.65t axle loading
23:28:58  <Eddi|zuHause> usually engines have permission for 5% overweight
23:29:10  <drac_boy> 35.99t maximum tho
23:29:12  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, that's a bit more :)
23:29:34  <drac_boy> if it had came with Co'Co' trucks instead or something else....maybe it would had been a little less ;)
23:29:50  <Eddi|zuHause> quite :)
23:30:15  <drac_boy> heh
23:34:58  <drac_boy> anyway may as well as ask in case you knew anything... were there steeplecabs in europe too? :)
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23:42:14  <frosch123> drac_boy: <- the most popular one
23:43:24  <drac_boy> oh doh how could I had *** forgotten about these now 0_o
23:43:35  * drac_boy scribles another locomotive class into the tracking table
23:43:44  <drac_boy> heh thanks..that'll add one interesting variety :)
23:47:53  <drac_boy> frosch123 I don't recall where the url is right now but now looking at that SBB photo I recall there was another crocodile of a different nature .. it was diesel in the long middle body with two short nose ends sitting over extra-spaced two drive axles
23:48:34  <drac_boy> extra-spaced? that sounds odd...maybe I meant long-spaced
23:49:17  <frosch123> no idea;  i am no train expert :)
23:49:45  <frosch123> but i believe that i would call any steeplecar-shaped engine a crocodile :p
23:49:45  <drac_boy> np...I'll probably find url later or some another day :P
23:50:14  <drac_boy> frosch123 here is a dumb question: why no alligators? ha
23:50:18  <drac_boy> heh heh
23:50:36  <frosch123> anyway, at the bottom of that wiki page is a list of other engiens
23:51:01  <frosch123> hmm, though they look quite unrelated
23:53:06  <frosch123> <- some more pictures
23:54:26  <frosch123> and yeah, that wiki page confirms that crocodile is basically the german name for steeplcar
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