Log for #openttd on 16th December 2012:
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00:03:03  <Kitty> drac_boy: timber plantation
00:03:07  <Kitty> ?
00:03:42  <drac_boy> that sounds better, thanks for helping kitty :)
00:04:54  <Kitty> np
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00:06:16  <Flygon_> drac_boy: I still find 3rd rail hard to understand
00:06:18  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
00:06:25  <Flygon> Seems too dangerous :P
00:06:38  <drac_boy> at least I guess 'food' and 'good' are generic enough to encompass a wide variety of things with the least cargo slots needed
00:07:04  <drac_boy> eg wood becomes tables/houseframe/etc but its still only just 'GOOD' to the game ;)
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00:07:32  <drac_boy> flygon heh well 3rd rail works best for low-medium speed high capacity pax alone obviously .. and 2cc has a good example of that afaik
00:07:46  <drac_boy> but otherwise yeah its better to avoid it in favour of overhead which is so much more common out in the open
00:08:42  <Flygon> 2CC also lacks Comeng trains. Basically the same thing as 3rd rail subway trains, but overhead wire and better top-speed :p
00:09:22  <Flygon>
00:09:44  <drac_boy> heh flygon well I'm sure that if it was unique enough the 2cc people could look into adding it if you asked? :)
00:09:47  <Flygon> Shame, if it got into 2CC, it probably wouldn't be given the 3rd rail-type passenger loading speeds
00:09:56  <drac_boy> ha
00:10:07  <drac_boy> well yeah I don't know about that part :-s
00:10:09  <Flygon> Even moreso with Red Rattlers
00:10:18  <drac_boy> umm Red Rattlers? strange name
00:10:21  <Flygon> Which had doors on practically EVERY SINGLE PART of the carriage
00:10:23  <drac_boy> sounds like they are too "loose"
00:10:31  <V453000> I think if you draw them, the "2cc people" will happily add them :)
00:10:32  <drac_boy> oh...too many doors
00:10:34  <drac_boy> heh
00:10:41  <Flygon>
00:10:52  <drac_boy> flygon I know uk nicknamed certain early units as Thumper .. because of all the doors thumping shut
00:10:57  <drac_boy> or thats what I recall
00:11:06  <Flygon> They're called Red Rattlers, because the type lasted from 1880 to 1985 (with electrification @ 1925ish)
00:11:12  <drac_boy> that was before they started using sliding doors
00:11:22  <drac_boy> flygon oh heh ok
00:11:26  <Flygon> Would Red Rattlers have the highest unloading/loading speed in the game? :p
00:11:38  <drac_boy> hi V453000?
00:11:44  <Flygon> Heya V453
00:11:56  <Flygon> drac_boy: Rattlers had sliding doors
00:12:17  <Flygon> There was a related type that had Swing Doors, though. They were creatively called Swing Door trains.
00:12:27  <drac_boy> flygon heh
00:12:45  <Flygon> But, yeah
00:13:04  <Flygon> I can understand why 3rd rail may sometimes be used
00:13:14  <Flygon> But the disadvantages just don't seem worth it
00:13:19  <drac_boy> hm anyway finished looking at tt-foundry .. found two small ideas to think about it
00:13:32  <drac_boy> flygon be thankful you do not have to deal with 3rd+4th rails :P
00:13:40  * drac_boy points you to london if you're confused on that remark
00:13:45  <Flygon> Depends
00:13:52  <Flygon> We have had tracks with 4 rails
00:14:04  <Flygon> Because of the gauge problem... especially in South Australia
00:14:39  <drac_boy> I don't recall but I think it was to do with two rails for normal (and probably as ground) .. third rail was positive voltage .. and fourth rail was negative voltage
00:14:46  <Flygon> Victoria was luckier... our Narrow Gauge lines were independant from the rest of the system, and all the stock was designed to be run on BG for transfers anyway
00:14:50  <drac_boy> someone from uk probably can explain it better
00:15:02  <Flygon> Yeah, I've read up on the UK system, otherwise
00:15:07  <Flygon> A surprisingly clever system
00:15:14  <Flygon> Shame they didn't make it overhead+3rd rail
00:15:52  <Flygon> I imagine that would've been less of a pain
00:17:22  <Flygon> V453000: I'll save up money, and comission artists at some point. I am quite a big fan of Victorian trains, and the Victorian ones are the best documented in Australia. Most OpenTTDers from Australia appear to be New South Welsh, however. Victoria's mortal enemy.
00:17:31  <Flygon> My pixel art skills aren't good :P
00:17:50  <V453000> my drawing wasnt good at all either when I started :)
00:18:03  <V453000> I dont say it is phenomenal in any way as of now, but ... satisfactory :)
00:18:15  <Flygon> I know the feeling
00:18:17  <drac_boy> flygon btw did australia ever have special "gauge wagons"? basically mounting the different buffer locations between two cuts of wagons from both gauges?
00:18:22  <V453000> also 2cc set uses an extremely basic technique of drawing so it is really easy to contribute
00:19:15  <Flygon> drac_boy: As in, you load a wagon onto a wagon that's the right gauge? Or different gauge wagons towing each other on their native gauges?
00:19:25  <Flygon> V453: I'll need to look into it, then x3
00:19:40  <Flygon> But for now
00:19:48  <Flygon> I gotta do a different artwork for someone x3
00:20:08  <drac_boy> Flygon I meant the latter
00:20:21  * drac_boy is too busy with my own artworks as well :->
00:20:42  <Flygon> drac_boy does artwork?
00:20:44  <Flygon> Ah
00:20:52  <Flygon> I have no idea if that was practiced historially
00:21:00  <Flygon> It probably WAS done, though
00:21:15  <Flygon> With chain link couplers, anyway
00:21:38  <Flygon> But we honestly prefer just switching bogies
00:22:00  <Flygon> But I can't give a definitive answer
00:22:41  <drac_boy> mm
00:24:01  <drac_boy> flygon what do you think of rack tracks as in having a low top speed but on the other hand can go straight up a long mountain without being stuck at 1-2kph which is what happens to normal trains otherwise?
00:24:53  <Flygon> Doesn't seem too odd
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00:25:03  <Flygon> We have a rack railroad here that goes 80km/h
00:25:06  <Flygon> In New South Wales
00:25:12  <Flygon> Some sorta ski resort
00:25:57  <V453000> Flygon: small example :P
00:26:16  <Flygon> Gotta brb a sec
00:26:33  <drac_boy> flygon I was thinking about in-game ... could be interesting for arctic maps ... simple straight route up the long hill than trying to find a long low-grade route
00:26:49  <drac_boy> but its only a thought yet .. other things need to be finished first
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00:33:24  <Flygon> V453000: NUTS?
00:33:32  <V453000> of course what else
00:33:39  <Flygon> drac_boy: Ah, gotcha
00:33:45  <Flygon> V453000: Touche
00:33:54  <V453000> :p
00:36:34  <V453000> the maglev is probably the nicest :)
00:38:13  <drac_boy> I'm probably not knowing where to look but where do you define how sensitive a cargo is?
00:38:41  <Flygon> I could never understand some of those junctions :p
00:39:07  <V453000> eventally :)
00:39:28  <V453000> what do you mean sensitive?
00:39:45  <V453000> well the junctions are just ... connections from everywhere to everywhere :p
00:39:53  <Flygon> Seems crowded
00:39:59  <Flygon> I've never handled crowded networks well x3
00:40:09  <drac_boy> well something like lumber wouldn't care for slow train over long distance and still pay some $ for it ... but passengers are another matter ... 300 tiles at 10kph and I'm sure they wouldn't pay you a dollar worth :)
00:40:17  <drac_boy> thats what I'm wondering about
00:40:37  <V453000> well that is what the cargo payment rate graph is for
00:41:01  <V453000> though there are some extra notes like which cargoes can decay completely, like food or fruit(I think)
00:41:09  <V453000> see the openttd wiki for those things
00:44:33  <drac_boy> hm it just points back to the newgrf wiki .. only thing I could find was 'penalty times and price factor' under action0/cargo which did not seem to say much
00:50:06  <drac_boy> I'll just find out some another day :p for now I'm just classing things from A to F piority even if thats not quite correct
00:55:01  <drac_boy> interesting enough I only give passengers a B :-)
01:01:52  <drac_boy> V453000 what else are you going to come up with for your nutty grf? heh
01:14:22  <drac_boy> btw a completely decayed food train would be interesting....does it even earn a dollar or two for all that "free" manure?
01:14:25  <drac_boy> heh
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01:15:36  <Flygon> Siple
01:15:38  <Flygon> Simple*
01:15:46  <Flygon> Make a manure cargo
01:17:06  <drac_boy> tell him that ... not me :P
01:17:14  <drac_boy> heh
01:18:07  <drac_boy> flygon btw it would had been interesting to try present a generic australia trainset grf to players ... and watch them complain about breakage of gauges .... can you say "ummm ops?" ;)
01:19:43  <Flygon> it stops being a problem by 1930, really
01:20:02  <Flygon> Except for Narrow Gauge trains, all trains were designed with Standard Gauge in mind
01:20:09  <Flygon> Problem is, converting a pre-existing network :)
01:20:28  <Flygon> (all standard gauge stock could easily be 1600mm too... the gauge is close enough. :))
01:20:49  <Flygon> (problem is... the broad guage network had a SMALLER loading gauge)
01:22:35  <drac_boy> "broad" and "smaller" at same time? thats rather weird
01:22:49  <Flygon> Ehh
01:22:53  <Flygon> It's... hard to explain
01:22:55  <Flygon> Basically
01:23:09  <Flygon> The first railways in Australia were the Victorian/Irish broad gauge ones
01:23:28  <Flygon> And were probably built with the expectation of a British style railway system
01:24:01  <Flygon> New South Wales built theirs later... and I can only assume went with a larger loading gauge for the sake of... *shrug*
01:24:20  <Flygon> Point is, NSW has Double Decker trains (the first DD EMU's in the world, in fact), Victoria doesn't
01:25:29  <drac_boy> mm I see
01:26:27  <Flygon> Though, people keep discussing locomotive hauled DD carriages for here... which would actually work perfectly for our loading gauge (it's actually not all that small, but just small enough to create problems)
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01:26:59  <drac_boy> I've always wondered if doubledeck could work on something like metre gauge providing the ballast was kept in good conditions?
01:27:02  <drac_boy> what you think anyway
01:27:08  <Flygon> We did actually import a DD EMU here, built to the loading gauge. A modified Tangara set.
01:27:24  <Flygon> drac_boy: It better balance itself well :p
01:27:54  <Flygon> Small loading gauge DD EMU
01:29:23  <drac_boy> well I'm just wondering if I should provide doubledeck or just simply high-capacity bogie coaches instead
01:29:32  <drac_boy> so...... :)
01:29:48  <Flygon> High-capacity bogie coaches?
01:32:14  <drac_boy> narrow seats in 2+2 or even 2+3 fashion ... bags have to go in overhead rack (no space to put anywhere else heh) .. one single set of doors per car ... basically put in as many passengers as we can :p
01:32:24  <drac_boy> heh
01:33:09  <Flygon> Oh
01:33:14  <Flygon> Seems uncomfortable
01:33:20  <Flygon> To increase capacity, remove seats
01:36:43  <Flygon> drac_boy: What'd be a real marvel is triple decker coaches
01:36:50  <Flygon> Or: We get an excuse to use Brunel Gauge
01:37:29  <drac_boy> flygon heh well you better not go to japan then :P
01:37:44  <Flygon> Japan has TD coaches?
01:38:40  <drac_boy> they can fit a lot of people into each single car in their commuter emus ... sometimes in the past this went far enough that station hands had to help "push" people in to make the doors willingly close :)
01:38:58  <drac_boy> how's that for a true human sardine? ;)
01:39:51  <Flygon> We have a similar game here
01:40:02  <Flygon> Except without the pushers
01:40:24  <Flygon> Except, it's a problem here, because we have too many seats :p
01:40:54  <Flygon> But, yeah... they have station pushers in China, tooo
01:42:02  <Flygon> When Melbourne trains get full
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01:42:58  <drac_boy> who the hell is that on front? :-s
01:43:05  <Flygon> drac_boy: Why we abandoned Connex
01:43:16  <Flygon> Also, it's at the back of a train
01:43:24  <Flygon> Some teenager illegally train surfing
01:43:45  <Flygon> It's probably safer than him surfing at the top of a Comeng... too easy to get 1500 volt'd to death
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01:45:58  <drac_boy> flygon mm go to africa .. theres people sitting on top of the emu services just as badly as with the diesel trains
01:46:13  <drac_boy> at least noone even sits by the pantograph frames which .... is a good thing perhaps
01:46:41  <Flygon> Yeah
01:46:47  <Flygon> I've got a friend from South Africa
01:47:22  <Flygon> At least the South African trains are probably somewhat idiotproofed... the Comeng and Hitachi sets aren't so idiotproof
01:47:31  <Flygon> Too much naked electronics
01:47:37  <drac_boy> heh
01:47:57  <Flygon> At least nobody's tried surfing on top of a VLocity... yet
01:48:15  <Flygon> They'd probably choke to death from the fumes before they hit a bridge @ 160km/h
01:51:34  <Flygon> Either way, when surfing does happen here, it's frontpage news
01:54:25  <drac_boy> btw flygon one unusual steam tram :)
01:54:33  <drac_boy> high floor .. probably from hiding the pistons underneath
01:54:53  <drac_boy> and look at that cap smokestack too
01:55:19  <drac_boy> too bad I'm not inclined on one of these because of the ugly wires getting in the way on the tram track tiles :|
01:55:25  <drac_boy> heh
01:57:27  <Flygon> You can set the wires to invisible
01:57:49  <drac_boy> maybe but then what about being able to run electric on other routes tho?
01:57:53  <drac_boy> so..meh
01:58:06  <Flygon> Well
01:58:10  <Flygon> We need more roadtypes, then
01:58:18  <Flygon> And diagonal roadtypes @_@"
01:58:53  <drac_boy> heh flygon actually diagonal wouldn't work so well unless you do a totally new rv pathing code which I doubt is on anyone's list now
01:59:06  <drac_boy> because right now rvs only can count in straight tiles
02:04:13  <Flygon> Well
02:04:23  <Flygon> Let's get the funding to pay for this stuff then :B
02:04:46  <Flygon> If I win the lottery, ,000 is allocated towards new pathfinding >_>"
02:05:08  <drac_boy> heh have fun with that? :)
02:05:35  <Flygon> And ,000 is allocated to a NewGRF that contains every single Australian train and tram
02:05:40  <drac_boy> heh heh
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02:05:53  <Flygon> Including the Swedish X2000 tilt train that was run on Diesel testing in New South Wales
02:06:07  <drac_boy> I could use posting 0 or something to have most of the needed nfo codes here made for me by someone else? :)
02:06:58  <drac_boy> so flygon what are you even doing now anyway?
02:10:19  <Flygon> Making lunch
02:10:23  <Flygon> I hope I finished the commish
02:12:27  <drac_boy> ok :)
02:14:12  <drac_boy> me I'm just trying to balance out the locomotive list a bit here...
02:14:22  <drac_boy> kinda a bit hard to do I guess
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02:20:25  <drac_boy> flygon about triple deck, if you want to do that you really need broad gauge (or even hilter's gauge if it had became real) to get the extra width space inside to have the seperate spiral stairway for the upper deck :)
02:20:44  <Flygon> A spiral stairway?
02:20:47  <Flygon> Seems excessive
02:20:51  <Flygon> I'd have used the diagonal method
02:21:20  <drac_boy> so basically outside end door heads straight to upper ... inside end door heads by L stairway to middle deck .. then the middle door is for the lower deck
02:21:34  <drac_boy> flygon... diagonal would take up more space to get up two floors .. so spiral seem better there
02:21:42  <drac_boy> but thats just my thought on it
02:22:00  <Flygon> Wouldn't diagonal save width space?
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02:22:16  <drac_boy> diagonal wastes space on the corners tho .. where spiral does away with that?
02:22:34  <Flygon> Eh, I guess
02:22:46  <Flygon> Either way, I gotta go soon x:
02:22:51  <Flygon> Gotta feed the horse ect
02:22:59  <drac_boy> mind you some of the earlier usa dome cars did use spiral stairs to squeeze out another seat row
02:23:04  <drac_boy> heh ok np
02:23:07  <drac_boy> see you another time :)
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02:26:18  <Flygon> Okay, must go
02:26:20  <Flygon> Have fun, peeps
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08:49:19  <Alberth> and moin in general :)
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08:53:23  <andythenorth> bonsoir
08:54:03  <planetmaker> good morning
08:54:18  <Eddi|zuHause> *gÀhn
08:54:54  <planetmaker> well... the last two weeks I always was up at least three hours by now ;-)
08:55:03  <planetmaker> thus I woke up surprisingly early for Sunday :-P
08:57:00  <rymate1234> gah
08:57:12  <rymate1234> OpenTTD, I know those road vehicles aren't profiting
08:57:17  <rymate1234> and I don't really care
08:57:42  <rymate1234> especially when I have trains making £700,000 a year
08:58:09  <planetmaker> RV can be pretty profitable. Depends on usage, though :-)
08:59:32  <rymate1234> well
08:59:38  <rymate1234> these are short bus routes
08:59:54  <rymate1234> I keep them around out of laziness
08:59:56  <planetmaker> short => unprofitable. as usual ;-)
09:00:05  <planetmaker> try short train routes
09:00:09  <planetmaker> same thing
09:01:23  <rymate1234> i know
09:01:51  <Flygon> Road vehicles are useless, except for ONE thing
09:02:01  <Flygon> City ratings
09:02:13  <rymate1234> is there a way to turn off the profit messages?
09:02:20  <Flygon> Yes
09:02:55  <rymate1234> k
09:03:45  <planetmaker> RV are doing well :-)
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09:20:09  <Wolf01> hello o/
09:20:46  <Alberth> moin Wolf01
09:21:18  <planetmaker> hi wolf
09:24:10  <rymate1234> just wasted £50,000,000 by founding a new town
09:24:10  <rymate1234> :>
09:24:37  <Alberth> you can disable founding new towns, you know ;)
09:25:02  <planetmaker> founding a town is a voluntary action anyway... it's not like it happens by accident really, I'd say
09:25:22  <planetmaker> or can one mis-click in a list?
09:25:35  <planetmaker> (not sure where it exactly is initiated right now)
09:27:34  <Alberth> right, NML does not do generic callbacks was the conclusion the previous time
09:28:13  <rymate1234> I did it on purpose
09:28:22  <rymate1234> but the damn thing ended up as a small village
09:28:24  <rymate1234> ¬_¬
09:28:37  <planetmaker> of course
09:28:57  <planetmaker> you can't build metropolis from scratch. Now nurture it to become a metropolis
09:29:32  <rymate1234> I am
09:29:54  <planetmaker> if it goes too slowly, change town growth speed to max ;-)
09:30:08  <planetmaker> but mind, it'll affect all towns and villages
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09:30:35  <rymate1234> Its already at fast
09:31:14  <planetmaker> there's also 'very fast' ;-)
09:32:51  <Flygon> Build 'The Cloning Vats' secret project
09:32:56  <Flygon> Pop boom every year
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10:44:25  <chester_> men, who could compile for win64? another guy wants to play
10:45:29  <Eddi|zuHause> you can run win32 binaries on win64
10:46:15  <chester_> ok wait i'll tell him
10:46:17  <Eddi|zuHause> (it might actually run faster as well, but test results are scarce and inconclusive)
10:52:25  <rymate1234> Flygon, Cloning Vats?
10:52:40  <Flygon> Alpha Centauri reference
10:52:53  <chester_> yes, he's happy too now)
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11:20:05  <rymate1234> ah
11:23:02  <rymate1234> shitty, small bus bus service that runs often = town growth
11:23:42  <Bad_Brett> anyone knows what numbers the bridge sprites have? or where i can find them?
11:23:51  <Bad_Brett> those are not working
11:29:42  <rymate1234> why are RV's so suicidal
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11:32:57  <Eddi|zuHause> rymate1234: try :)
11:39:46  <rymate1234> Eddi|zuHause, I'm fine
11:39:58  <rymate1234> its not my RV's which are suicidal thankfully
11:42:39  <Eddi|zuHause> rymate1234: that's even worse...
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11:44:34  <rymate1234> why?
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12:00:40  <Terkhen> hello
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12:11:29  <frosch123> yay, problem solved! if ottd occassionally powers down your computer, just replace your graphics card :)
12:12:04  <Sturmi> new ottd feature?
12:12:37  <frosch123> yeah, i liked the suggestion
12:12:41  <Terkhen> frosch123: those things sound completely related to each other, yes
12:13:12  <Terkhen> maybe we unknowingly prepared OpenTTD to shut down computers to force people to replace their graphics cards
12:13:49  <frosch123> Terkhen: a few weeks ago someone reported an issue on the german forums, that after a few hours of running ottd it would just power down his computer. it only happens with ottd, nothing else :)
12:14:02  <frosch123> i really would enjoy coding something like that :p
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12:14:07  <frosch123> playnig too long? -> poweroff :p
12:14:39  <Terkhen> "We have detected that you spend too much time procrastinating with OpenTTD, your savegame will be deleted and OpenTTD will close now"
12:14:56  <frosch123> exactly :)
12:17:08  <rymate1234> woot
12:17:15  <rymate1234> two towns founded
12:17:32  <rymate1234> "Ryville" and "Ryvilledon"
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12:18:22  <Terkhen> they sound like pokemons
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12:18:53  <drac_boy> hi
12:19:25  <rymate1234> hi
12:19:33  <Terkhen> hi drac_boy, how are you? :P
12:20:02  <drac_boy> doing ok, you?
12:20:11  <MNIM> Terkhen: would sure help me
12:20:19  <MNIM> and not just for OTTD
12:20:58  <Terkhen> MNIM: :P
12:21:18  <MNIM> I am a TERRIBLE procrastinator.
12:21:29  <MNIM> in fact, Im procrastinating right now! weeee~
12:21:34  <rymate1234> lol
12:23:47  <Terkhen> but today is sunday
12:23:56  <Rubidium> sun? where?
12:24:33  <Terkhen> now that you mention it, nowhere
12:24:43  <Terkhen> it may be above all those clouds, but I cannot assure that
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12:24:58  <drac_boy> any of you know if objects only can be picked manually or can they change sprite at placement time depending on neighbouring tiles?
12:24:59  <NGC3982_2> Morning.
12:25:15  <drac_boy> hi NGC3982_2
12:25:56  <NGC3982_2> I'm having some difficulties with autorenew and old vehicles.
12:26:01  <NGC3982_2>
12:26:26  <NGC3982_2> The train is stationary (though started) in the depot. I guess it's the reliability of 0% that keeps it from running.
12:26:32  <NGC3982_2> How do i get it to autorenew?
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12:26:57  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982_2: press the "replace" button?
12:27:19  <NGC3982_2> Where is that button?
12:27:31  <Eddi|zuHause> one of the buttons on the right of the depot window
12:27:40  <NGC3982_2> Oh, that one with the arrow?
12:27:44  <NGC3982_2> AH.
12:27:46  <NGC3982_2> I see.
12:27:58  <NGC3982_2> Well, that was easy. Thanks :).
12:28:26  <rymate1234> hey guys
12:28:42  <rymate1234> are these messages being sent?
12:28:49  <Eddi|zuHause> no
12:28:53  <rymate1234> crap
12:29:09  <drac_boy> reason I had that question was because I was wondering if I only need one object for multiply connected directions or I have to do each one manually
12:29:15  <drac_boy> heh Eddi|zuHause
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12:30:35  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: objects can check adjacent tiles
12:30:53  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: look at the "fenced area" in opengfx+
12:31:23  <drac_boy> allright, just wanted to be sure. was thinking I had found the callback but wasn't sure if it was for that or not
12:31:28  <rymate1234> opengfx+?
12:32:08  <Eddi|zuHause> rymate1234: a set of generic newgrfs in opengfx-style
12:32:21  <rymate1234> ah
12:32:52  <drac_boy> hm looks like I'll have a rather long objects list ... basically repeating different compass directions
12:33:04  <drac_boy> at least thankfully the scenario editor menu would not be as this long :->
12:33:11  <hnk> can you play the game with 32bit gfx now?
12:33:18  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: you can do directions with "views"
12:33:33  <Eddi|zuHause> hnk: yes
12:33:40  <hnk> is it any good
12:33:41  <hnk> =
12:33:43  <hnk> ?
12:33:52  <Eddi|zuHause> hnk: try zbase
12:34:04  <hnk> downloadable from inside the game?
12:34:11  <Eddi|zuHause> not yet, i believe
12:34:22  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: why not?
12:34:26  <hnk> interesting though
12:34:26  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause as it is now I'm listing eg: poles north, poles south, poles north/west, etc ... but as I am assuming it will only show up just as one 'poles' entry in the editor alone
12:34:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: no idea
12:34:46  <Eddi|zuHause> haven't really followed it
12:35:09  <Rubidium> maybe you should start believing something else ;)
12:35:16  <drac_boy> heh
12:35:17  <Rubidium>
12:35:28  <Eddi|zuHause> WE WILL NEVER ABANDON OUR BELIEFS!!
12:35:44  <Eddi|zuHause> go away you heretic!
12:36:07  <Eddi|zuHause> /gtg
12:38:11  <Rubidium> hnk: what I meant is: if you OpenTTD is new enough, you should be able to download it from within the game
12:38:41  <hnk> well I think I have the newest 1.2.3 something
12:38:53  <drac_boy> I assume that 'end of life' action 0F basically would let objects "close down" during the requested year just like how an industry can close down and disappear from the map for good?
12:40:49  <Rubidium> hnk: then zbase can be downloaded from within the game
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12:45:38  <drac_boy> and other thing was .. if I do set the object flags to have bit 2 value 4 (re that it can be removed) does that mean if the object was in the way of a town's growth the town can remove it as well - not just the player?
12:47:13  <planetmaker> yes
12:47:19  <planetmaker> at least iirc ;-)
12:48:00  <drac_boy> mm thanks
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12:51:09  <drac_boy> I'm not too sure if theres any plausible reasons for a single object to be 15x15 tiles large but I guess thats only simply the code size limit being stated :)
12:54:21  <drac_boy> planetmaker I'm not sure if I'm remembering it right but whats the difference between hp and kN in-game again?
12:56:18  <frosch123> power and force?
12:57:08  <frosch123> max power is limiting at high speeds, max force is limiting at low speeds
12:57:44  <drac_boy> right ok I wasn't off then
12:58:12  <drac_boy> thanks
12:59:32  <drac_boy> so going by that, adding more kN would had let it start a heavier train and/or climb uphill better in short?
13:03:17  <frosch123> yes
13:03:34  <frosch123> afaik force is only important for speeds < 5km/h or so usually :p
13:03:49  <frosch123> so it basicalyl decides whether a train can start al all :p
13:04:12  <frosch123> i..e it decides about max weight and max hill slope
13:04:36  <Flygon> I wish OpenTTD had variable slopes
13:04:55  <frosch123> the slope is variable, it is just homogeneous :p
13:05:08  <Flygon> Non-homogeneous sloping
13:05:44  <frosch123> anyway, for trains you basically have homogeneous slopes depending on the distance of slopes compared to trainlength
13:06:03  <frosch123> but yeah, i know what you mean :p
13:06:23  <Flygon> But it'd also need a 3D renderer for the heighmapping
13:06:31  <Flygon> Unless you want lots of 2D tiles drawn...
13:06:48  <Flygon> As sensible as a 3D heightmap is
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13:14:13  <drac_boy> frosch123 mm yeah so low hp high kN would be a slow runner but could haul anything uphill ... high hp low kN would be more of a light fast train that may have bit issue with steep slopes .. etc etc
13:14:28  <drac_boy> hi flygon-the-aussie-engineer? :P
13:15:52  <Flygon> Here, the solution to the low kN problem is to add more locomotives :B
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13:17:06  <frosch123> drac_boy: you can also consider power as a property of the engine (i.e. how much it can pull), and "force" as a property of the tires and weiget (i.e. when the tired just slip instead of pulling something)
13:17:16  <frosch123> *weight
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13:17:29  <drac_boy> yeah I do know about real locomotives..I was just wondering about the game physics :)
13:17:53  <frosch123> game physics are just that :p
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13:18:12  <frosch123> except that the grf actually does not specify a force, but a frictiion coefficient
13:18:21  <frosch123> which ottd multiplies with the engine weight
13:18:41  <drac_boy> flygon some of the early uk accidents were caused by intentionally underpowered trains, even Great Western was sued for this just as well
13:19:12  <Flygon> Victorian Railways/V/Line phased out as many underpowered pass services as possible by 1985
13:19:16  <Flygon> Usually by line closures
13:19:46  <Flygon> The surplus was coupled and used as frieght loco :p
13:20:06  <Flygon> But why would underpowered trains caused accidents?
13:20:17  <frosch123> how can underpowered trains cause accidents?
13:20:27  <frosch123> or do you mean they were not able to brake?
13:20:43  <frosch123> due to too low force
13:21:15  <frosch123> (assuming that the wagons cannot brake themself :s )
13:22:20  <drac_boy> as I recall one of these particular was a single goods 0-6-0 used on a lengthy train .. stalled on a grade brakes were set at both ends as they cut the train in two .. but in restarted the locomotive went backward a bit (piston thrust wasn't achived yet) which was enough to knock the second cut into moving downhill on its own .... literally smashed into a moving express train. had some deaths there
13:22:41  <drac_boy> the court accused GW of underpowering their trains more or less
13:22:50  <drac_boy> I think this was even listed on the wiki list let me check
13:22:50  <Flygon> Oh geeze ._.
13:22:55  <Flygon> Wagons had no braking?
13:23:19  <drac_boy> only the brakevan did and it apparently couldn't hold
13:23:24  <drac_boy> one moment anyhow :)
13:23:27  <Flygon> Urg
13:26:11  <frosch123> Flygon: in the very old days you needed pressure for braking, so if the pneumatic broke there was no way to stop. later they were clever enough to reverse it, by requiring pressure to lift the brakes
13:26:35  <Flygon> The diff between vaccum and air brakes?
13:27:46  <frosch123> i believe braking is done using springs, and pressure compresses thoses springs and lifts the braking
13:28:25  <frosch123> no idea about details :)
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13:35:42  <drac_boy> hm I can't find it atm Flygon maybe it was on another uk site
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13:36:04  <drac_boy> but yeah .. a 0-6-0 was not enough for the train used ... not surprisingly it stalled on a simple line
13:36:46  <Flygon> It's a shame vaccum propulsion didn't take off
13:37:00  <planetmaker> vacuum propulsion?
13:37:12  <Flygon> An early form of 3rd rail
13:37:15  <Flygon> Brunel designed it
13:37:24  <Flygon> It used a tube between the tracks, with leather seals
13:37:29  <Flygon> And an external pump
13:37:42  <Flygon> The train would be propelled by the vaccum
13:37:44  <Flygon> Basically
13:37:50  <Flygon> The opposite of a steam pressure engine
13:38:12  <planetmaker> got a link?
13:38:16  <Flygon> It failed because the leather seals wore out quickly
13:38:23  <drac_boy> flygon I suspect a major problem would be old brittle leather losing a lot of pressure
13:38:28  <drac_boy> heh :P
13:38:36  <Flygon>
13:39:00  <Flygon> It got speeds of up to around 80 miles, iirc
13:39:56  <drac_boy> another thing that seem good on paper but had problem in real life as far as I recall was a waterway tram .. basically it looked like a short observation deck mounted onto steel flanges .. and the rails were actually underwater
13:40:11  <Flygon> ...
13:40:12  <Flygon> ...what
13:40:15  <drac_boy> eventually the water forces twisted the gauge out of alignment too often to finally write the project off
13:40:34  <Flygon> Too hard to use steel sleepers?
13:40:56  <frosch123> in school we built a vacuum cannon :)
13:41:54  <frosch123> we could shoot table tennis balls over 20 m or so :p
13:41:56  <Flygon> How does that work?
13:42:09  <frosch123> destroying them if they hit a wall
13:42:26  <Flygon> I wanna build a steam cannon
13:42:29  <Flygon> Except it's prolly illegal
13:42:42  <Flygon> Need boiler certification
13:42:55  <frosch123> Flygon: you have a pipe and put a ball into it which fits closely into it
13:43:14  <frosch123> then you put some plates on each end and remove the air from the pipe
13:43:27  <frosch123> the vacuum hols the plates at the ends
13:43:45  <frosch123> then you take a hammer and quickly remove the plate from the end where the ball is
13:43:50  <drac_boy> think I found it but strangely it must be low tide or something
13:44:04  <frosch123> the air floods the pipe, moving the ball in front of it
13:44:10  <drac_boy> looks like they used trolley electrification to power it above the water level apparently
13:44:25  <MNIM> heh
13:44:28  <frosch123> it blasts the plate from the other side, and the ball continues flying
13:44:41  <MNIM> basically a moving beach observation deck
13:45:21  <Flygon> drac_boy: What a terrible location for it
13:45:41  <Flygon> frosch123: That is... really smart o.o
13:46:15  <Flygon> Needlessly complicated and not entirely practical (though, I can imagine some very important uses...)
13:46:22  <Flygon> But really cool :)
13:46:34  <frosch123> there are various videos on yt
13:46:42  <frosch123> though i do not see a really nice one
13:47:24  <MNIM> hmmmh
13:47:50  <Flygon> All my simple mind wraps around is steam pressure cannons :p
13:47:51  <MNIM> I could imagine it being used as a missile launching mechanism in submarines, though imagine the water hammer power on that!
13:47:51  <drac_boy> btw I had a look at the callbacks and train actions but .. where can I state how slow/fast the cargo will be loaded/unloaded per ticks?
13:48:17  <andythenorth> unloading speed prop
13:48:19  <andythenorth> action 0
13:48:25  <Flygon> Doesn't help that my friends and I tried to design steam cannons... for pre-1AD
13:48:37  <andythenorth> if you're looking in nfo, it's on the page for 'vehicle props' rather than 'train props'
13:48:53  <Flygon> It somehow extrapolated into us designing a greek/roman electricity grid powered by viaducts
13:49:15  <Flygon> The main difficulty established was teaching them electromagnetism, and getting the materials :p
13:49:55  <Flygon> And that materials readily available were terrible
13:50:18  <drac_boy> oh right, not sure why I didn't think of that one. thanks andythenorth I found it at bottom of
13:50:37  <andythenorth> drac_boy: I've had the same problem :)
13:50:37  <Flygon> If anything, we somehow concluded it'd be easier to build electric tramways in 50BC than steam traction...
13:50:44  <andythenorth> drac_boy but really, why not just use nml?
13:50:48  <Flygon> Though, I reckon Magic Potion traction'd win out :)
13:51:35  <MNIM> Flygon: that's actually fairly logical...
13:51:55  <Flygon> As in, that the electric tramways would be easier to create?
13:52:10  <MNIM> for high-pressure steam boilers you need high-strength steel, which they didn't have (much) at the time
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13:53:08  <MNIM> not to mention you'd need lubricants and fuel too
13:53:11  <Flygon> I should note, we concluded they wouldn't be very powerful (the electric tramways). Voltage is very limited (due to other constraints, such as the amount of electricity generable, and the technology used for modifying voltage)
13:53:24  <Flygon> Lubricants wouldn't be a problem
13:53:33  <Flygon> This IS Greece and Rome we're talking about
13:53:40  <Flygon> :B
13:53:42  <MNIM> in the volumes required for steam traction?
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13:53:47  <Flygon> Again
13:53:52  <Flygon> This is Greece and Rome
13:54:24  <Flygon> We did discuss Steam Tiremes, however. Using oil burning (would they have been able to get crude oil?)
13:54:41  <Flygon> But determined the weight and sheer danger of it would have made men and oars a more practical option
13:55:02  <Flygon> Steampunk just aint gonna win, this centery
13:55:10  <MNIM> I'm not sure of oil, though there's records of it existing, I am unsure of volumes
13:55:16  <Flygon> Indeed
13:55:27  <Flygon> I know it exists myself
13:55:34  <andythenorth>
13:55:38  <MNIM> hmmmmh, how about steam turbines?
13:55:40  <Flygon> But volumes mustn't have been high
13:55:48  <Flygon> andythenorth: Yeah, I know of that engine
13:56:00  <Flygon> MNIM: Only really useful for stationary setups
13:56:26  <Flygon> And I imagine the amount of oil needed for a decent electricity generation plant for the era would be excessive...
13:56:32  <Flygon> You'd be better off using coal
13:57:06  <Flygon> Though, at least turbines are much less prone to mechanical failure than other types of steam engines...
13:57:20  <Flygon> Which is an important factor, given our terrible materials
13:57:57  * planetmaker returns from reading which started after Flygon's link :-) Got a bit distracted there, thanks for the link :-)
13:59:04  <MNIM> exactly. Also, steam turbines do work perfectly for marine applications
13:59:35  <Flygon> You're proposing Steam-Electric tiremes?
13:59:44  <MNIM> no, just steam.
13:59:52  <Flygon> Oh, alright
14:00:00  <Flygon> Hmm
14:00:11  <MNIM> biggest problems in these things would be the amount of steel needed and fuel storage
14:00:16  <Flygon> Well, that's gonna need one bigass Tireme, then
14:00:25  <MNIM> oh, I forgot variable pitch propellers.
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14:00:56  <Flygon> And I get the feeling the powers-that-be would prefer a fleet of 50 Tiremes over a giant hulking slow metal monster :p
14:01:00  <Flygon> Variable pitch?
14:01:06  <Flygon> Forgive me, my maratime skills are... bad
14:01:41  <MNIM> ehh. constant speed propellors. basically, your RPM stays the same, which is what you want with turbine engines
14:02:00  <MNIM> instead, to increase/decrease thrust you change the pitch of the blades
14:02:15  <Flygon> Ooooh
14:02:22  <Flygon> Clever
14:02:35  <Flygon> What has me concerned, though
14:02:42  <Flygon> Is the materials durable enough
14:02:54  <Flygon> They barely even had Steel then
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14:03:43  <MNIM> yeah, that's where most issues would boil down to. can you get strong enough materials?
14:03:45  <drac_boy> andythenorth when is grfcodec and ttdxp altogether going to have nml anyway?
14:03:55  <drac_boy> thats the only way I can sum it up atm
14:04:03  <andythenorth> what is ttdxp?
14:04:05  <Flygon> Either way
14:04:16  <Flygon> Roman steam engine certainly has good theory for on-land
14:04:25  <drac_boy> flygon you remind me of something I had wondered about with steel tho
14:04:49  <drac_boy> how much iron should be needed to make steel .. and what amount of coal to optionally mix with
14:05:02  <Flygon> According to Ragnarok Online
14:05:04  <Flygon> 5 Iron, 1 Coal
14:05:16  <Flygon> Chance depends on LUK, DEX, Skill level, and Job Level
14:05:21  <MNIM> compared to everything else, understandings of physics in that time were comparable with the time just before the steam age, yet their materials
14:05:56  <Flygon> I'd just stick with very thick bronze boilers
14:06:00  <Flygon> Or otherwise avoid steam engine
14:06:08  <Flygon> And just use viaducts to turn turbines
14:06:15  <Flygon> Or even paddewheels
14:06:21  <drac_boy> flygon heh hmm do you think that steel could be made of coal alone or only iron-or-ironandcoal works?
14:07:10  <Flygon> I don't know
14:07:14  <Flygon> But I don't imagine so
14:07:47  <Flygon> Either way, Bronze is more accessable
14:08:03  <Flygon> Reserve the use of Iron to critical componets
14:08:26  <drac_boy> flygon mm I'm trying to figure out how to do the steel mill ratios yet .. I do know that it will require ore and that coal is an optional booster
14:08:28  <Flygon> Importantly
14:08:29  <drac_boy> :)
14:08:40  <Flygon> Did the Romans/Greeks know of Copper?
14:09:07  <MNIM> of course.
14:09:13  <MNIM> copper is older than iron...
14:09:18  <Flygon> That fixes a lot of problems
14:09:36  <Flygon> Copper is, of course, necessary for all of this to happen
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14:10:54  <drac_boy> funny thing is I wondered about aluminium chain but then realized it would just end up too alike to steel on the vector chart so I dropped that idea for now
14:11:01  <drac_boy> but mm we'll just have to see
14:11:06  <Flygon> ...offf the wall question
14:11:11  <Flygon> What is required to make Aluminium?
14:11:15  <MNIM> personally one thing Ive always been thinking about is hydraulic heavy machinery
14:11:26  <Flygon> irl
14:11:26  <MNIM> like water-pressure operated city gates
14:11:31  <drac_boy> flygon bauxite basically I think
14:11:43  <Flygon> What is Bauxite?
14:12:09  <peter1138> aluminium ore
14:12:12  <Flygon> I see
14:12:14  <Flygon> Thanks
14:12:30  <Flygon> TODO: Take Metaluragy classes
14:12:31  <MNIM> basically aluminium salt with a bunch of other irons, from the top of my head?
14:12:43  <MNIM> ehh, metals.
14:12:44  <V453000> drac_boy: if you are doing an industry newGRF, I wrote down some notes and general logic how would I make an industry set ... might be useful if you want something to read
14:12:56  <Flygon> Also, water-pressure operated city walls
14:13:08  <V453000> due to the enormous amount of stuff by brain has farted out around NUTS lately I dont think I will be doing the industry set anytime soon anyway :D
14:13:12  <Flygon> Ties in well with the viaducts of electricity generation :)
14:13:25  <MNIM> Flygon: how would you 'operate' city walls?
14:13:48  <planetmaker> hehe. you start to suffer the usual phenomenon people generally start to suffer when they start to get involved: much more nice things to do than one can actually do, V453000  ;-)
14:13:52  <drac_boy> V453000 heh I was focusing on vehicles+landscape but I had been thinking a bit about matching industries to the side too tho
14:14:01  <MNIM> hmmmh
14:14:11  <drac_boy> we'll see what happens after the trains are in a working beta grf :)
14:14:12  <Flygon> Electric or steam operated propellors that push water hydralics about?
14:14:14  <V453000> pm I have that ever since I released the first version :d
14:14:27  <Flygon> Steam seems less fail-prone here
14:14:27  <MNIM> I can imagine steam-powered catapults, though that could hang on metallurgy again.
14:14:41  <Flygon> Steam-powered catapaults is silly
14:14:49  <Flygon> Steam Cannons are mechanically simpler
14:14:56  <Flygon> And can use crappier metals
14:15:19  <Flygon> But the crappy metals would make it bulky and heavy
14:15:20  <V453000> and I think you can imagine planetmaker when I make some feature specially for some of our game, then motivation goes through the roof :D
14:15:23  <MNIM> I'm thinking about steam only to rewind the catapult
14:15:29  <Flygon> Oooh
14:15:32  <Flygon> Not a bad idea
14:15:33  <MNIM> that way you don't need high pressure
14:15:34  <V453000> also, word order in sentences ftw.
14:15:41  <MNIM> well, less, at least
14:15:59  <Flygon> I thought you meany a hydralic steam catapault
14:16:15  <Flygon> The ones that shoot in a straight line, then suddenly end
14:16:19  <Flygon> And the projectiles go flying
14:16:21  <MNIM> that was my first thought to, but yea, complicated, and requires high pressure
14:16:28  * Flygon nod
14:16:31  <MNIM> not to mention hammering forces.
14:16:48  <Flygon> The hammering forces were what worried me
14:16:59  <drac_boy> V453000 the reason I started making notes on industries tho was because I just did not like the behaviour of this and that ... could not find the cargo kind i wanted from that one .. etc
14:16:59  <Flygon> You'd break apart practically any metal available
14:17:16  <drac_boy> basically it was seeming like that if my own trains were going to be fully useable .. they would need a bit of industry patching
14:17:21  <drac_boy> but we'll see how that goes
14:17:29  <MNIM> hmmmh.
14:17:32  <MNIM> suddenly I wonder
14:17:50  <MNIM> did the greeks/romans know about propellers?
14:18:01  <Flygon> Not propellors persay
14:18:08  <Flygon> But they DID know about corkscrews
14:18:11  <Flygon> (I wonder why :p)
14:18:13  <planetmaker> hehe, V453000 :-)
14:18:35  <MNIM> hmmmh well, it's not a far stretch from corkscrews to props.
14:18:40  <Flygon> They used them to transfer water between planes
14:18:51  <Flygon> And also make decent propellors...
14:19:31  <MNIM> anyway, steam powered aquaduct pumping stations could've made water even more readily available
14:19:32  <Flygon> And are easy to forge
14:19:52  <MNIM> that would've helped civilization ahead for sure
14:19:57  <drac_boy> V453000 what do you think of the four different steel mills present so far? (original, uki, ecs, firs)
14:20:10  <Flygon> Interestingly, Electric-Steam powered corkscrews would have made getting water to the power statioon easier :p
14:20:24  <Flygon> And need less human intervention
14:20:47  <Flygon> Main thing that brought down civilization, though
14:21:03  <Flygon> Wasn't really tech. It was just society collapsing.
14:21:24  <V453000> I think something about each of them ... in total I still prefer the behavior of original industries, uki/PBI as I call it is too restrictive - coal:iore is always wrong to make a fixation to imo. ECS is just strange in general but without the stockpiling and stuff it at least works somewhat. FIRS does it very nicely
14:21:40  <V453000> also, accepting passengers at steel mill is awesomely evil
14:21:40  <MNIM> trouble with power grids in that age, Flygon: what application for it is there that does not require modern tech?
14:21:53  <MNIM> lighting is out, as is small home appliances.
14:22:05  <Flygon> Electric heating
14:22:08  <drac_boy> V453000 heh .. to me the good steel mill would be one that can accept iron alone and yet give gradual (something any original industries lacks heh) steel output
14:22:25  <MNIM> power would be limited to large estates, industries and possibly your electric tram
14:22:31  <Flygon> Survives the winters, and allows for boiled water machines
14:22:53  <Flygon> Let's think of it this way
14:23:02  <Flygon> Electricity can be used as a tool to wow people
14:23:09  <V453000> drac_boy: yeah sure why not, I dont think gradual output is anyhow bad
14:23:16  <MNIM> heh
14:23:25  <Flygon> And scare your enemys
14:23:26  <drac_boy> and V453000 I think the refinery+steelmill accepting passengers was just a little compromise on passengers=workers
14:23:27  <Flygon> It can be a weapon
14:23:33  <V453000> I think something like "expert industries" or some similar newGRF did something like that
14:23:35  <MNIM> vandergraaf generators to wow savages into submission. :P
14:23:40  <Flygon> Imagine raiding a city
14:23:42  <drac_boy> beside the oilrigs even in newgrf industries accepts passengers too so umm yeah
14:23:55  <Flygon> And suddenly the raiding army gets electrified tesla style
14:24:00  <V453000> well without the worker effect on production ratios it is rather evil as passengers obviously get processed :>
14:24:06  <drac_boy> heh
14:24:07  <Flygon> Kills the morale
14:24:18  <Flygon> It can be self-defence mechanism, basically
14:24:52  <Flygon> And, also, re: Heating
14:25:00  <Flygon> Boiled water is clean water
14:25:12  <Flygon> Easy access to boiled water (eg. kettles) is well... a lifesaver
14:25:13  <Flygon> Literally
14:25:13  <drac_boy> anyway V453000 mind if i ask you for comment on certain rail wagons?
14:25:28  <V453000> you can ask me absolutely anything ... guess you figured that already
14:25:28  <MNIM> Flygon: even now electric weaponry is impractical and imprecise, but it certainly could be used as psychological warfare
14:25:31  <drac_boy> heh heh
14:25:33  <V453000> so dont ask to ask :)
14:25:39  <Flygon> MNIM: Exactly
14:26:08  <Flygon> Also, wall mounted steam cannons :D
14:26:14  <MNIM> hahaha
14:26:16  <Flygon> Arbalists are more practicall... but, hey
14:26:17  <drac_boy> well do you think 1920s dated 2-axle wagons on narrow gauge should probably be good for just 50kph .. maybe 60kph .. no faster because otherwise they may have issue derailing due to the rigid axles?
14:26:33  <Flygon> Psycologically, you don't want silent balls of death flying at you
14:26:53  * drac_boy thinks all of this talks coming out of flygon is somewhat over my head already
14:27:08  <V453000> I dont have any opinion on that drac_boy :) sorry, I know nothing about real life trains. All stats I did were to adjust gameplay for optimum
14:27:12  <Flygon> drac_boy: Steam cannons fire silently
14:27:25  <MNIM> oh! oh! electric executions.
14:27:33  <MNIM> stricken down by the gods!
14:27:36  <Flygon> MNIM: I chuckled. Didn't think of that
14:27:50  <MNIM> that'd sure duck up the enemy morale
14:27:58  <Flygon> But you'd get people prefering it over death-via-horse
14:28:02  <drac_boy> heh np V453000 np ... I've decided to mark the 2-axle wagons as 50, bogie one as 60-70 initially then 80+ later on ... still trying to decide about that balancing
14:28:08  <Flygon> And by horse, I mean... *ahem*
14:28:18  <MNIM> Flygon: electric executions can be just as slow and painful :P
14:28:27  <V453000> wagon speed limits are generally a bit pointless tbh
14:28:33  <Flygon> Last I checked, horses aren't slow
14:28:53  <andythenorth> right....  FIRS Machine Shop available 1870.  Needs date-sensitive machinery sprites.  I have steam crap, then various generations of diesel crap available.
14:28:56  <MNIM> what execution did you think of then?
14:28:59  <andythenorth> Suggest dates please
14:29:00  <drac_boy> V453000 well you don't want to fly cattle around a sharp curve at 100km/h without needing a rather wide gauge :P
14:29:13  <drac_boy> heh heh
14:29:24  <V453000> dont I?
14:29:26  <V453000> news :)
14:29:30  <MNIM> I was thinking of trampling or tearing by horses
14:29:41  <Flygon> The Romans used animals to humiliate humans in various ways in the colloseums, as a form of punishment
14:29:44  <V453000> my cattle goes up to 500kmh and they are particularly excited about it
14:29:44  <drac_boy> andythenorth hard to say .. I mean big business may be able to upgrade early .. but small family owned shops may keep their old machine for a long time till it finally really breaks
14:29:48  <MNIM> oh, like that
14:29:49  <MNIM> well
14:30:04  <Flygon> You'd get people prefering execution via chair :p
14:30:05  <drac_boy> V453000 thats only because you have a *nutty* unrealistic trainset :P
14:30:08  <drac_boy> heh heh
14:30:25  <MNIM> it would of course be for the happy few.
14:30:35  <Flygon> Happy few?
14:30:58  <MNIM> should've added accents?
14:31:07  * rymate_1234 is making a zoomable image of his OpenTTD world
14:31:21  <Flygon> MNIM: They wouldn't survive the torture
14:31:32  <Flygon> That was the point of it, really
14:31:35  <V453000> drac_boy: of course :)
14:31:43  <MNIM> also, methinks that in that age people would prefer heroic death in arena over lightning death by gods.
14:31:44  <Flygon> For being an advanced society, the Romans were quite cruel
14:31:58  <MNIM> if they even had a choice, that is.
14:32:01  <V453000> I am even going to introduce solid liquid in the next version of NUTS :D
14:32:07  <V453000> physics!
14:32:15  <Flygon> Point is
14:32:32  <Flygon> If electricity was to change the lives of the Greeks/Romans
14:32:36  <drac_boy> anyone know of a term to use to describe these hmmm these passenger carrying wagons that have straight bench seats with open sides (basically only have the roof and maybe front/back walls but thats it)
14:32:36  <MNIM> Flygon: cruel, but smart. high-profile enemies and criminals got high-profile deaths, no torturing to death
14:32:39  <Flygon> A LOT of other things would need to change, too
14:32:49  <drac_boy> early trolleys were like that but I still can't figure out a term to describe it
14:32:56  <Flygon> Californian
14:33:00  <V453000> drac_boy: rollercoaster?
14:33:09  <MNIM> cabriolet
14:33:47  <MNIM> Oh god. I'm not exactly a contributing factor today, am i.
14:34:26  <MNIM> discussions about electrified/steamified classic societies and really unhelpful remarks.
14:34:36  <drac_boy> this is what I mean
14:34:48  <drac_boy> somehow I can't think of how to describe that in just a few words
14:34:52  <Flygon> Definitely Californian
14:35:18  <Flygon> Californian trams didn't last long in Melbourne
14:35:21  <Flygon> It rained too much
14:35:43  <drac_boy> heh 'calfornian' has almost no results online :->
14:36:27  <Flygon> Coliqual term, perhaps?
14:36:45  <drac_boy> maybe
14:37:28  <drac_boy> hm looks like 'open bench trolley' is good enough to work..guess I'm going with that one for now
14:37:31  <Bad_Brett> Hey that may be something for Mod... what year?
14:41:28  <drac_boy> I still think commuter coaches aren't a bad idea...lower top speed but higher capacity from using standing space instead of only seats alone :)
14:44:28  <MNIM> drac_boy: higher loading speeds, too
14:46:03  <drac_boy> yeah MNIM thats what the japan trainset made good uses of ... express trains are ok to load ... but the commuter emus can load a lot in a short time :)
14:46:19  <Flygon> 2CC, too
14:46:30  <Flygon> Except, no non-third rail fast loaders D:
14:46:44  <drac_boy> flygon thats why technically I didn't mention 2cc ^_^
14:46:51  <MNIM> yeah, that's kinda annoying.
14:46:59  <Flygon> We must implement Comengs :D
14:47:09  <Flygon> And Red Rattlers :D
14:47:34  <MNIM> There should be a newgrf that allows those 2cc metros to run on ordinary (nu)tracks
14:47:49  <rymate_1234> My OpenTTD map :>
14:47:50  <rymate_1234>
14:48:24  <drac_boy> MNIM nothing like having one single busy city station with a mix of so many different services going in and out .. one moment it could be a short sleeper express train on platform 2 .. then a few days later its a long commuter trains on platform 5 .. then a local train coming shortly to use just-emptied platform 5 just as the express finally is almost done
14:48:37  <drac_boy> thats pretty much exactly what the japan grf is nice for heh
14:48:52  <drac_boy> freight side is still decent too ofc
14:49:18  <drac_boy> flygon go find the specs first :P
14:49:31  <Flygon> For the Victorian ones?
14:49:37  <drac_boy> yeah
14:49:45  <drac_boy> specs = maybe someone will think about coding it for you
14:49:50  <drac_boy> thats the only thing I can say atm :)
14:50:00  <Flygon> Easy enough to find
14:50:04  <Flygon> If I can't find stuff myself
14:50:08  <Flygon> vicsig is a greatplace :)
14:50:16  <Flygon> But I'd rather make art, first
14:52:45  <drac_boy> hm geeze how much does carbon weight
14:53:00  <Flygon> Depends on the atom
14:53:15  <drac_boy> oil carbon? :)
14:53:32  * Flygon shrug, hasn't a clue
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14:56:30  <drac_boy> at least I found a nice table for weight of various dry raw materials :)
14:57:09  <drac_boy> like eg red clay fired bricks are about 2400kg each cubic meter
14:58:56  <drac_boy> just have to finish factoring this into something more sensible to wagon tare limits eventually :p
15:00:25  <drac_boy> oh right one more thing as always...
15:01:06  <drac_boy> I know I've seen it in newgrfs but how many 'loading stages' can you have or its only limited by how much you want to bother drawing them?  (like I mean the stages between an all-empty and all-full wagon)
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15:02:59  <frosch123> drac_boy: one per cargo unit :)
15:05:11  <andythenorth> bah
15:05:14  <andythenorth> I broke nml :o
15:05:15  <andythenorth> nmlc ERROR: There are not enough registers available to perform all required computations in switch blocks. Please reduce the complexity of your code.
15:05:31  <planetmaker> haha :-)
15:05:34  * planetmaker hugs andythenorth
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15:05:49  <andythenorth> never expected that :P
15:06:46  <MNIM> andythenorth: Sounds like you are over the ballmer peak?
15:07:45  <V453000> andythenorth: I reachd something similar some time ago :D
15:07:58  <V453000> except with IDs or something
15:09:15  <planetmaker> V453000, andy is long past that error :-P
15:09:29  <V453000> :DD
15:09:30  <planetmaker> "error" ;-)
15:09:37  <V453000> yeah :)
15:10:23  <frosch123> it's a feature: prevent newgrf authors from writing newgrfs which might cause players to complain about the speed of ottd
15:10:40  <V453000> like some people did yesterday right frosch :p
15:11:17  <frosch123> exactly :)
15:11:19  <drac_boy> frosch123 so technically someone could had drawn 100 different stages from 0% to 100% loaded in each 1% increasement if they really had all the artist time to waste? :P
15:11:44  <frosch123> drac_boy: most vehicles have only 30 units
15:11:45  <andythenorth> meh
15:11:52  <andythenorth> I could trivially generate that
15:11:54  <frosch123> some ships have 500, so you can have 500 stages there
15:12:07  <andythenorth> so
15:12:08  <V453000> I thought you can only have 4 loading stages?
15:12:08  <frosch123> but effectively most vehicles load multiple units at a time, so there is no much point in more stages
15:12:12  <andythenorth> what do I do about this?
15:12:23  <andythenorth> it's primarily caused by hide sprite calculations
15:12:27  <frosch123> V453000: construction stages maybe :)
15:12:54  <V453000> wat so trains can load in more than 4 stages?
15:13:00  <V453000> not like I want to draw more than 4
15:13:10  <andythenorth> ha
15:13:11  <frosch123> i do not know of any limit
15:13:17  <frosch123> except the pixels :p
15:13:35  <andythenorth> so can the number of registers be increased here?
15:13:42  <V453000> well I guess I will stick with 4 :)
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15:14:16  <planetmaker> 4 loading stages should be enough for everyone :-P
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15:14:44  <V453000> I think so :)
15:14:59  <V453000> though many of my flatbeds have just 2 :)
15:15:17  <Sturmi> reminds me of "64k memory should be enough for everything"
15:15:27  <frosch123> Sturmi: 640k
15:15:27  <V453000> :DD
15:15:44  <Sturmi> i heard both :D
15:15:44  <planetmaker> similarities are... not by chance, sturmi ;-)
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15:16:56  <andythenorth> ugg
15:16:59  <andythenorth> flapping connection
15:17:05  <andythenorth> so can we have more registers please?
15:17:17  <frosch123> just make you code more sane
15:17:27  <frosch123> or improve the nml compiler :p
15:18:37  <drac_boy> frosch123 thanks, I was just curious about drawing open loads in a few stages .. eg a 2-axle flatcar with two crates of bricks would have half full one crate at 25% .. one full crate at 50% and two full crates at 100%
15:18:46  <drac_boy> just so you understand why I asked about stages
15:19:01  <andythenorth> ho ho, what makes you think my code is insane? :)
15:19:30  <frosch123> andythenorth: it's a newgrf
15:20:11  <andythenorth> so...
15:20:16  <andythenorth> wtf shall I do? :P
15:20:17  <frosch123> anyway, wasn't pm working on a patch to reduce the number of registers nml may use, in favour of more registers for the user? :p
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15:20:48  <andythenorth> planetmaker: ^ o_O
15:21:20  <frosch123> andythenorth: do you know which computation causes it?
15:21:24  <frosch123> i.e. what did you change :p
15:21:31  <V453000> less is more
15:21:38  <planetmaker> uhm... ah, that you mean, frosch123
15:22:06  <planetmaker> I thought it was done... but it might have been ... forgotten a bit
15:22:43  <frosch123> well, it would make this case more severe, wouldn't it :p
15:24:25  <frosch123> hmm, your patch was about a679d parameters, not about va2 registers, right?
15:24:51  <drac_boy> how many cubic meters did one of these uk mineral car hold? :->
15:24:53  <andythenorth> my assumption is that it's caused by hide sprite calcs
15:24:54  <drac_boy> heh
15:25:18  <frosch123> andythenorth: do you have duplicated formulas in your spritelayout?
15:25:29  <frosch123> like multiple hide_sprite with c&p content
15:25:31  <andythenorth> loads
15:25:34  <andythenorth> hang on
15:25:41  <frosch123> then you might store the value in some temporary register
15:25:47  <frosch123> and only use LOAD_TMP in the spritelayout
15:26:20  <frosch123> i.e. compute the same value only once per spritelayout, not for each sprite :p
15:27:52  <andythenorth> frosch123: this is one spritelayout
15:28:00  <andythenorth> only 278 lines
15:28:17  <andythenorth> doesn't even have smoke
15:28:47  <andythenorth> the easy win would be to split snow / non snow to separate spritelayouts
15:28:56  <andythenorth> but that seems to be not the modern way to do it
15:29:54  <andythenorth> I am assuming that it's these layouts that trip up nml
15:30:09  <andythenorth> there's no detail in the error, so it's only a guess
15:31:38  <drac_boy> hmm 20 tons capacity .... and assuming 1ton=62.5kg ... at 1600kg/cu.m that would had been 1.28 cubic meters of dry loose sand
15:31:51  * drac_boy wonders how to check if that would seem allright
15:32:16  <drac_boy> heh sometimes I hate certain formulas :s
15:32:25  <andythenorth> 1 ton = 62.5kg?
15:32:34  <andythenorth> according to which conversion?
15:33:05  <drac_boy> thats what its listed in the newgrf wiki
15:33:34  <drac_boy> (I realize some of the weights used ingame aren't exactly reflective of real life counterpart but still)
15:34:28  <Rubidium> isn't that the base of the weight of one unit conversion?
15:35:03  <Rubidium> it doesn't say a ton is 62.5 kg
15:35:53  <Rubidium> it merely says the unit is in 1/16th tons and that any cargo with "ton" as unit should have 16
15:36:06  <Rubidium> passengers have 1 (IIRC)
15:36:15  <drac_boy> hm..not sure I recalled seeing factions....must be looking at something wrong...
15:36:21  <drac_boy> sorry
15:36:54  <peter1138> 62.5kg is far from 1 ton
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15:39:42  <drac_boy> I'll have to check where I found that erronous non-fraction number but anyway ... recalculating at 1ton=1000kg I asume thats 12.5 cubic meter load then?
15:39:53  <andythenorth> more plausible
15:40:08  <andythenorth> imagine at minimum 1m wide, 1m high, 4m long
15:40:22  <andythenorth> 4m cubic
15:40:32  <rymate_1234> how do I remove a town completely?
15:40:48  <drac_boy> andythenorth mm so I guess sand is too light for a 20 ton mineral car :)
15:41:04  <drac_boy> makes sense tho .. some sites list as mineral car being used to carry stones which must be quite heavy
15:41:27  <InducTrackerOTTD> frosch123:
15:41:52  <drac_boy> the variety of cars is another thing tho .. especially the late 24.5 ton one produced by BR
15:43:00  <andythenorth> I am not convinced that sand is light
15:43:04  <andythenorth> I've shovelled 1t of it
15:43:07  <frosch123> 2000 vehicles :p
15:43:15  <andythenorth> I thought 1t was quite heavy
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15:45:04  <drac_boy> mm well for now I'm just trying to figure out how much the cargos should weight per 'unit'
15:45:42  <frosch123> drac_boy:
15:45:56  <frosch123> most weight 16, i.e. 1 ton per unit
15:47:14  <frosch123> generally 16 is the value for stuff which is displayed as "x tons of y" in game :p
15:47:16  <Rubidium> drac_boy: everything that has ton as unit is 16 1/16th ton
15:47:44  <Rubidium> everything else, such as liters, boxes, etc could have a different mass per unit
15:48:33  <drac_boy> yeah I just realized that now....corrected my 10-minutes-old note :)
15:48:38  <drac_boy> good thing it didn't get too far from there heh
15:49:03  <drac_boy> frosch123 I still have to figure out how much oil weight in litre term but thats for another day maybe :P
15:49:12  <drac_boy> crude oil to be exact
15:49:29  * drac_boy is working the dry cargos now
15:49:32  <frosch123> default oil seems o have the same density as water :p
15:50:16  <frosch123> drac_boy: anyway, there is also the "capacity multiplier" property which you should set for straw and such :p
15:51:03  <drac_boy> why straw?
15:51:04  <drac_boy> :)
15:51:59  <frosch123> you know the weight of 30 tons of straw? :p
15:52:29  <drac_boy> I wonder if I should consider one 'unit' of bulk materials as 1m3 maybe
15:52:42  <drac_boy> seem small enough to use in pixels
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15:54:36  <InducTrackerOTTD> One unit of steel or sand would weigh very much, and straw very little then
15:56:30  <drac_boy> InducTrackerOTTD well steel is technically a sheet or beam most of the times.. while a big heap of straws is coiled together in bales
15:56:51  <drac_boy> but yeah ... it would take many bales of straw to weight as much as one small house frame steel beam
15:57:00  <InducTrackerOTTD> Unless you want to measure everythin in m^3 aswell
15:57:31  <drac_boy> InducTrackerOTTD mm .. I'm just going to bother with bulk cargos for now and try figure out how to weight other things at a later time ;)
15:57:52  <Rubidium> drac_boy: between 790 and 973 kg/m3 according to
15:58:25  <InducTrackerOTTD> drac_boy: well, lots of bulk cargoes would have higher densities than water
15:58:40  <InducTrackerOTTD> coal, iron ore, anything taken from the earth that isn't water, oil or gas =)
15:59:08  <drac_boy> ah nice one thanks Rubidium
15:59:27  <drac_boy> InducTrackerOTTD well ore is much heavier than typical coal tho mind you :P
16:00:04  <drac_boy> thats why I've had to think about how to seperate coal and ore for a while till this morning I finally realized I can still load both in the same wagon .. I just simply make the iron units much heavier than coal .. don't know why I wasn't thinking of that yesterday :)
16:00:37  <frosch123> drac_boy: that's what "capacity mulitplier" is about
16:01:05  <frosch123> it controls how much cargo fits into a wagon, if the wagon does not explicitly set a capacity for a particular cargo
16:01:08  <drac_boy> only problem is... you're not supposed to load a 16 ton wagon with 30 ton of ore tho .. curse the limiting newgrfs :->
16:01:16  <drac_boy> oh?
16:01:26  <drac_boy> that I'll have to look up after I finish math
16:01:33  <InducTrackerOTTD> A bulk hopper would need both capacity limiters anyway
16:01:47  <InducTrackerOTTD> You could load a full load of plastic pellets to reach the volume cap
16:02:03  <InducTrackerOTTD> or some dense rock or whatever to reach the mass cap of the hopper
16:02:19  <InducTrackerOTTD> Yeah, what you jsut said
16:03:00  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the property defines the weight of "one cargo unit", e.g. by default, 1 crate of goods is 0.5t, so goods has a capacity multiplier of 2 (so 60 crates go into a 30t wagon)
16:04:17  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: but it's a property of the cargo, so by defining it, you're making your train set incompatible to any industry grfs
16:04:30  <andythenorth> this sounds complicated?
16:04:36  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: what you rather want is the capacity callback for the wagon
16:04:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. simply check for "is cargo == ORE: return half capacity"
16:05:47  <InducTrackerOTTD> Would be much simpler if the wagons and cargoes could be specified with volume/mass parameters
16:06:05  <InducTrackerOTTD> Something to consider including in the game in the future
16:08:41  <frosch123> grf version 9 :p
16:08:41  <andythenorth> version n
16:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: adding properties doesn't require a grf version bump :)
16:11:06  <InducTrackerOTTD> Cargoes would need to always have 2 out of three properties in that scheme, density, volume, mass
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16:11:36  <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: isn't enough. some cargos are restricted by volume, others by area
16:11:44  <InducTrackerOTTD> area?
16:12:04  <Eddi|zuHause> InducTrackerOTTD: you cannot "stack" cars, so only the area is relevant, not the volume
16:12:24  <InducTrackerOTTD> What kinda cargoes would have to be stacked?
16:12:30  <Eddi|zuHause> boxes
16:12:32  <InducTrackerOTTD> Paper certanly comes nice little cuboid pallets
16:13:23  <InducTrackerOTTD> I don't know the history of carho handling too well, but nowadays boxes are stacked :\
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16:15:34  <LordAro> evenings all
16:15:42  <InducTrackerOTTD> Actually, I see what you mean now
16:16:09  *** Netsplit <-> quits: dihedral, andythenorth, bb10X, mikegrb, Kurimus, __ln___, Hirundo, lucaspiller_, avdg, JamesGo,  (+11 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them)
16:16:24  <InducTrackerOTTD> The very example I gave, pallets of stacked paper, or rolls of it even, don't usually get stacked beyond the unit (pallet/roll)
16:17:32  <InducTrackerOTTD> It is at the same time a slightly bad comparison tho, considering paper is dense and heavy
16:17:44  <Terkhen> hi LordAro
16:18:07  <LordAro> hey Terkhen
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16:22:58  <drac_boy> mmm Eddi|zuHause and InducTrackerOTTD good pointers ... I'll think about these just in case I can't be bothered making a custom industry vector to pair with the trains
16:23:48  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: with the capacity callback you can do all that already, it just is a little tedious, and you cannot predict unknown cargos
16:23:54  <InducTrackerOTTD> Possibly 5 params then, density, volume, mass, area density (mass/area) and footprint area
16:27:35  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- we have a "smoke engine" ;)
16:28:06  <InducTrackerOTTD> Engines running on smoke, great!
16:33:43  <drac_boy> heh thats just old cold fuel in the pistons silly :P
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16:34:00  <InducTrackerOTTD> No, I'm sure of it. It's an evolution of steam power
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16:34:14  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause mm theres probably no unknown cargos unless someone make a new industry grf thats not compactible with firs/ecs cargo classes? :)
16:34:32  <drac_boy> but yeah I'll have to look up the capacity callback soon
16:34:38  <InducTrackerOTTD> Someone lazy like myself would probably go that path
16:34:41  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: yes. that's exactly what i mean. how should you know what industry grf is invented 5 years from now?
16:35:20  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: or what andythenorth does 5 minutes from now :p
16:37:10  <frosch123> the first one feels easier
16:37:53  <drac_boy> heh heh
16:41:10  <andythenorth> no cargos are known
16:45:26  <drac_boy> andythenorth so you do not know what WOOL is supposed to be sheepwise? :P
16:45:28  <drac_boy> heh
16:48:35  <drac_boy> hmmm which tree type to use .... blah
16:49:22  <frosch123> cotton candy tree?
16:49:50  <InducTrackerOTTD> Mahagony and Balsa, drac_boy?
16:50:09  <V453000> ctcd trees ftw
16:50:30  <InducTrackerOTTD> Courage the Cowardly Dog?
16:51:30  <InducTrackerOTTD> Wait, I meant ebony
16:53:00  <V453000> ctcd = cotton candy
16:53:44  <InducTrackerOTTD> Hmm, so balsa wood is lighter than cork
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16:58:19  <drac_boy> meh I'll just average up a few random trees
16:58:48  <drac_boy> looks like that will be about 800-900kg/cu.m average :)
16:59:04  <drac_boy> going leave that one for later tho
16:59:09  <andythenorth> are you rescaling everything?
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17:04:47  <drac_boy> btw lightest listed is balsa at 170 . heaviest is lignum vitae at a bit under 1400
17:04:55  <drac_boy> of course I've never heard of the latter tho
17:05:13  <drac_boy> most others are in 400-1000 ranges
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17:08:06  <andythenorth> bah
17:08:10  <andythenorth> spritesorter issues
17:08:19  <drac_boy> heh
17:09:33  <andythenorth> cba to fix those right now :|
17:10:29  <InducTrackerOTTD> Perhaps a trainload of more, better a is needed?
17:12:05  *** rymate__1234 is now known as rymate1234
17:12:21  * andythenorth just removed the fricking sprite :P
17:13:26  <drac_boy> heh heh
17:16:38  <drac_boy> and apparently 6.289810728022 bbl barrels of oil is 1cu.m :)
17:16:49  <drac_boy> bit crazy I know
17:22:00  <InducTrackerOTTD> Crazy how?
17:22:57  <drac_boy> had to find out that number myself by entering each digits till it finally came to 1 and not 0.999 or 1.0014
17:22:59  <drac_boy> :)
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17:35:36  <drac_boy> going for lunch now tho
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18:34:11  <Wolf01> bye
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18:45:23  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24823 trunk/src/lang/finnish.txt (2012-12-16 18:45:16 UTC)
18:45:24  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:25  <DorpsGek> finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
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19:14:23  *** andythenorth [~Andy@2002:4d66:7022:0:34be:e5f1:b850:514a] has joined #openttd
19:20:43  <Bad_Brett> replacing bridge graphics - where can i find the correct sprite numbers?
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19:21:30  <frosch123> correct numbers?
19:21:33  <frosch123> for what?
19:22:24  <frosch123> in case you use nml, afaik nml does not support bridges
19:26:09  <Bad_Brett> yeah i know, but i should be able to replace the base graphics, right?
19:27:55  <frosch123> <- maybe check foobars source
19:28:02  <Bad_Brett> thanks!
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19:31:42  <Bad_Brett> though i'm a complete n00b when it comes to nfo
19:33:51  <Bad_Brett> so it isn't (yet) possible to just replace the standard bridge sprites with a "replace" block in nml?
19:34:23  <Bad_Brett> in that case, i might patiently wait until it gets implemented
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19:47:27  <planetmaker> yes, you can replace base graphics
19:47:50  <planetmaker> opengfx is your reference of choice for that. or openttd's source. But the latter is less verbose in that context of bridges
19:48:42  <frosch123> the problem with replacing the default bridge sprites is that your bridge needs to have the exact same layout
19:49:03  <frosch123> wrt. pillars and stuff on the bridge
19:54:53  <Bad_Brett> Yeah I know, but I've designed my bridges to have the same layout
19:55:10  <Bad_Brett> the only problem is that the sprite numbers don't seem to work
19:55:41  <planetmaker> you need to be climate-dependent
19:56:39  <Bad_Brett> alright, that might very well be the issue then
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20:00:15  <Bad_Brett>
20:01:49  <Bad_Brett> is that the correct one?
20:02:09  <Bad_Brett> it seems that replacing sprites from 2437 should make a difference in-game, but so far no success
20:02:27  <planetmaker> that would do. Though I'd read through source code, I guess
20:02:40  <planetmaker> base only refers to temp climate
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20:03:23  <planetmaker> hm... though... if you replace it unconditionally... should work
20:03:55  <Bad_Brett> the problem is that it doesn't work in the temp climate either
20:04:31  <Bad_Brett> i'll try with some more sprites
20:04:41  <Bad_Brett> see if it has any effect
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20:08:41  <frosch123> well, make sure that no real bridge set is present
20:08:51  <frosch123> they would likely disable usage of the default sprties
20:12:16  <Bad_Brett> nope, i only have my own grf active... the thing that makes me confused is that i've replace hundreds of other sprites using this method without any problems
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20:13:44  <planetmaker> Bad_Brett, you notice there's different sprites for the different roads (temp / desert / tropical / arctic / snow), yes?
20:13:50  <planetmaker> each has its own number
20:13:59  <Bad_Brett> yes
20:14:02  <planetmaker> ok :-)
20:14:40  <Bad_Brett> the terrain is almost completed now
20:16:00  <frosch123> Bad_Brett: well, it would not surprise me if ogfx would add bridges
20:16:06  <frosch123> not only replacing the original sprites
20:16:16  <frosch123> ogfx is no pure baseset :)
20:16:35  <Bad_Brett> yeah... like the rivers
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20:18:03  <Bad_Brett> by the way, any idea when (and if) it will be possible to code stations in nml?
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20:19:13  <frosch123> whenever one of the nml devs is non-busy and in the mood to do it
20:19:23  <frosch123> can be this christmas, 2012, or 2020 :)
20:19:31  *** KouDy [~KouDy@] has joined #openttd
20:20:06  <Bad_Brett> haha, that's the usual answer :)
20:21:59  <Supercheese> I'm wondering when the promised new version of mb's Newstations is coming out
20:22:36  <frosch123> you are aware of the dbset 0.9 ?
20:22:42  <Supercheese> I like the railtype support
20:22:45  <frosch123> it was announced for 2011-11-11
20:22:49  <Supercheese> advertised anyway
20:23:19  <frosch123> just ignore any dates mb gives
20:23:57  <frosch123> just be surprised if it is really released :)
20:24:39  <Bad_Brett> :)
20:25:46  <frosch123> i just wonder why he actually gives dates
20:26:17  <frosch123> is he trolling people, or does he believe in them himself :)
20:26:22  <Rubidium> to flame people who ask when it's going to be released for not reading that particular post
20:32:39  <Bad_Brett> Gaah! stupid bridge... i'm checking the source code now, any idea on ...where to look? ;)
20:33:18  <planetmaker> search for "bridge" in it...
20:33:30  <frosch123> hmm, why is hg so stupid to consider -m "-Remove: blabla" as "-R" option?
20:33:33  <planetmaker> grep -Ri "bridge" *.pnml :-)
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21:06:22  <LordAro> you people are clever. what are your thoughts on the boost library?
21:06:40  <glx> too big :)
21:07:54  <Rubidium> oh, that library that has a new version like every week
21:08:04  <LordAro> even if you only include the needed parts?
21:08:28  <LordAro> Rubidium: only, i suspect, if you use the dev builds ;)
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21:09:22  <frosch123> usually the boost stuff is only almost what i need
21:09:39  <frosch123> so it ends up it writing the template myself
21:09:58  <Rubidium> well, it's more like major releases 4 a year, but that is still a lot for a library
21:10:06  <frosch123> i do not know many using boost, but those which i know i have put into the douche category
21:10:09  <Rubidium> as major releases imply vast API/ABI changes
21:10:21  <frosch123> no implication, just correlation :)
21:10:35  <glx> seems like ICU :)
21:11:37  <LordAro> i was just thinking, that the filesystem part of the lib could make certain parts of ottd a bit simpler
21:11:46  <Rubidium> glx: only ICU is once a year
21:11:47  <glx> (with boost being easier to compile)
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21:12:03  <drac_boy> hi
21:12:32  <Rubidium> LordAro: good luck testing what the exact requirements of the version of boost are
21:12:48  <LordAro> e.g.?
21:12:54  <glx> oh latest ICU is a month old
21:13:47  <Rubidium> LordAro: with 4 versions a year, you must be aware that you 'need' to support the last 10-20 boost releases, i.e. whatever you use must be in the boost release of 3-4 years ago
21:13:53  <Rubidium> which will be a PITA to test
21:14:11  <Rubidium> otherwise we cannot compile e.g. the Debian binaries anymore
21:14:11  * LordAro googles PITA :L
21:14:27  <drac_boy> can you mark different freight wagons to have different loading times for the same cargo class or not quite?
21:14:56  <LordAro> Rubidium: that is true
21:15:23  <Rubidium> and actually, the generic binaries could become harder as well; I wonder what APIs boost depends on that we then need to statically link into the generic binary
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21:17:00  * LordAro quietly shelves plans to use it in any future projects
21:17:10  <LordAro> i did suspect you would convince me to do that :L
21:18:53  <frosch123> ottd doesn't even use stl properly :p
21:19:18  <frosch123> there is a big difference in coding for ottd and the c++ i do at work
21:19:27  <frosch123> no idea why actually :)
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21:20:42  <Rubidium> dried grapes?
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21:23:19  <Bad_Brett> Interesting... I replaced a bunch of sprites and at least some of the works... getting closer
21:23:41  <LordAro> frosch123: indeed, in fact, i tried to use only c++ things (where possible) in my program - (shameless plug for code review)
21:24:06  <drac_boy> Bad_Brett remind me what you're working on again?
21:25:24  <Bad_Brett> Right now i'm adding bridges to my mod
21:25:55  <drac_boy> mod?
21:26:15  <Bad_Brett>
21:34:23  <Eddi|zuHause> had to think of andy when i saw this picture:
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21:35:30  <drac_boy> heh
21:38:53  <drac_boy> any of you know the name for these thing that look like short flatcars with turntables on top as to deal with extra-long loads? logs and steels usually if I recall right
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21:48:28  * drac_boy wonders if flygon_ is here or still half-disconnected?
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21:53:50  * drac_boy gives flygon some anti-commex measures :p
21:54:08  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: those are wood wagons
21:54:32  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause yeah but the ones with these two turning stalks on them?
21:54:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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21:56:17  <Eddi|zuHause>
21:57:54  <drac_boy> oh thanks, apparently further search seem to translate it to bolster cars .. thats just what I was needing .. again thanks
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22:01:15  <grzegorz> hello, i got 2 questions about depots and stations. my train is taking coal from mine. everything from station. but transported is about 50%... why?
22:02:03  <drac_boy> hmm that could be interesting if I could draw an empty bolster train as being only 20px long but when loaded it'll be "longer" .. maybe too much trouble tho heh
22:02:38  <grzegorz> ?
22:04:01  <FLHerne> grzegorz: transported % is based on station rating
22:04:52  <FLHerne> Which is based on the stuff in
22:06:45  <Eddi|zuHause> grzegorz: see it as this: the transpoted % is how much they give you to transport, not how much you take away
22:07:35  <Eddi|zuHause> (imagine they have other means of transport that is not modeled on the map)
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22:12:51  * drac_boy wonders about heckling flygon's modem
22:12:52  <drac_boy> -_-
22:15:50  *** Flygon__ [] has joined #openttd
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22:16:47  <LordAro> he's always doing that
22:16:56  <LordAro> should ban him :)
22:17:32  <grzegorz> will read, thank you. couldnt find anything... brb
22:18:02  <drac_boy> heh LordAro some days he do have a good chat with us :P
22:18:14  <drac_boy> its just the few times like now where he seem to be unable to 'talk' at all :-s
22:18:46  <LordAro> he does seem to be in australia, to be fair :L
22:19:01  <Terkhen> good night
22:19:05  <drac_boy> bye Terkhen
22:19:10  <LordAro> night Terkhen
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22:36:58  <grzegorz> don't quite get it, but thank you :) will just test over time :)
22:37:52  <grzegorz> also, when I place station there is a coverage option to enable. should coal mine be covered whole, or just 2 squares coverage is enough to connect mine 2 station?
22:38:40  <drac_boy> grzegorz look at the station construction dialog
22:38:47  <frosch123> make sure it says "supplied: coal" in the window
22:38:48  <drac_boy> when it shows 'coal' instead of 'none' thats more than enough
22:39:59  <grzegorz> ok, thank you!
22:40:05  <grzegorz> now sleep time :)
22:40:10  <grzegorz> gnite everyone
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22:56:16  <frosch123> night
22:56:18  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:57:16  <Supercheese> Well
22:57:17  <Supercheese>
22:57:21  <Supercheese> Check it out
22:57:33  <drac_boy> hm interesting..australia actually had some of the german cargosprinters....!
22:59:50  <drac_boy> heh nice supercheese I'll have to have a look someday
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23:09:06  <MNIM> Supercheese: now that's a nice christmas present!
23:09:15  <drac_boy> heh heh
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23:10:49  <drac_boy> flygon are you even actually online? :p either way how's this for a silly locomotive that seem too high for its gauge?,_1986.JPG
23:11:45  <MNIM> Reminds me of this:
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23:53:48  <drac_boy> hmm I think I really need some website for australia rolling stocks
23:53:58  * drac_boy knows they have NG over there but not what they run
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