Log for #openttd on 20th December 2012:
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00:07:43  <Supercheese> Jeez, very very much simpler
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00:13:41  <Supercheese> Salve, amice
00:13:59  <Pikka> ave charlie
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01:08:03  <drac_boy> is there a limit to what dorpsgek can do anyway?
01:08:17  <drac_boy> :)
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08:12:29  <Pikka> :D
08:12:35  <Pikka> AIAI septuple-heads train
08:12:46  <Pikka> but on the other hand, it does build its railways straight up mountains
08:16:56  <Supercheese> The 7 steam engines of the apocalypse
08:18:35  <Supercheese> (unless they weren't steam engines, of course)
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08:20:15  <Flygon> Supercheese: I am laughing so hard, I'm coughing
08:21:39  <Supercheese> TBH, I don't even know what the "7 horsemen" or whatnot are supposed to be, I just hear that phrase thrown around a lot
08:22:18  <Supercheese> but I can imagine seven steamers trying to pull a heavy train up a steep grade being rather terrifying to a theoretical 1st-century observer ;)
08:22:50  <Flygon> It's the four horsemen
08:22:56  <Supercheese> ah, see
08:23:02  <Supercheese> I don't even get the quote right :P
08:23:51  <Flygon> Pikka: is it making profit?
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08:40:30  <dihedral> hello :-)
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08:57:28  <planetmaker> moin :-)
08:57:36  <planetmaker> Pikka, at least AIAI does build trains :-)
08:57:52  <planetmaker> seems that building reasonable train networks by AI is not an easy challenge
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09:21:20  <Pikka> no, Flygon
09:21:24  <Pikka> moin planetmaker
09:22:02  <Flygon> Pikka: Poor AI
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09:58:25  <Flygon> As i
09:58:26  <Flygon> in*
09:58:30  <Flygon> I feel sorry for it
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10:08:10  <V453000> :>
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10:32:16  <dihedral> V453000, too much time?
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12:17:38  <V453000> dihedral: never :D
12:26:23  <Flygon> Huh
12:26:27  <Flygon> Nice touch
12:26:33  <Flygon> Steam trains slow down in tunnels
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13:09:23  <planetmaker> V453000, looks like a nice overview. But I think the engines are not shown in a good way, they're IMHO very hard to identify in that representation
13:09:50  <planetmaker> Rather take an equally-sized box for each or so. Would enhance the ability to distinguish them
13:10:20  <planetmaker> The white border dominates their image by far too much right now
13:11:41  <planetmaker> but conceptionally it's one of the best overviews I've seen so far :-)
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13:31:24  <Terkhen> hello
13:32:17  <Flygon> Hell
13:32:19  <Flygon> ...
13:32:21  <Flygon> Hello
13:32:28  <Flygon> Though, it's the 21st in Australia
13:32:39  * Flygon chainsaws a Gangnam Zombie Demon
13:32:45  <Flygon> Surviving quite well
13:33:50  <V453000> thanks for the feedback pm :) I will try something
13:37:16  <V453000> removing the white stroke and keeping the black outer glow looks better already
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13:56:52  <planetmaker> np :-)
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14:18:19  <Belugas> hello
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14:25:19  <planetmaker> hello sir saguleB :-)
14:28:10  <Ammler> V453000: that table is too realistic!
14:28:43  <V453000> :D
14:29:33  <V453000> I think I will just try to recolour the trains to some more contrasting company colours pm :)
14:30:15  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: now do an overview for CETS as well :)
14:30:42  <V453000> oh fuck no :P
14:30:54  <V453000> 10237 engines? :D
14:31:51  <Eddi|zuHause> no, probably around 200 for the basic sets
14:32:09  <V453000> still, this is around 100
14:32:51  <Eddi|zuHause> grep core src/table/CETS_Tracking_Table.tsv | wc -l
14:32:53  <Eddi|zuHause> 387
14:33:33  <V453000> just wtf :)
14:33:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it can be simplified if you consider each epoch and each company individually
14:34:29  <Eddi|zuHause> so you'll have ca. 50 engines in each ~40 year epoch for each company
14:34:45  <V453000> if I cover 150 game years and provide _many_ reasonable choices/stat changes, I cant imagine what are 400 trains for
14:34:59  <V453000> lol
14:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> if you really boil it down, your set and my set are not that different :)
14:36:00  <V453000> I just wonder if you will have a few trains in the gigantic group which will have exceptional stats
14:36:40  <Eddi|zuHause> not in the core set, but in the extended set possibly
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14:36:58  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on what you mean by "exceptional
14:37:15  <V453000> I mean in general trains which are more effective in transporting/have more power/are faster
14:38:00  <V453000> your set can have endless amount of trains but if one train is too strong, the rest is irrelevanyt
14:38:02  <V453000> -y
14:38:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the engines are grouped into "heavy freight", "light freight", "express passengers", "main line passengers" and "branch line passengers"
14:38:31  <Eddi|zuHause> some are "universal"
14:38:37  <V453000> which differs how? :)
14:39:59  <Eddi|zuHause> "heavy freight" is usually slow to medium speed but very strong, "light freight" is low cost, "express passengers" is very fast, the others are slower, but faster than the speed limit of the wagons. express wagons have low capacity, passenger wagons have higher capacity, and commuter wagons have highest capacity
14:40:55  <Eddi|zuHause> to model the "standing" of people in commuter wagons, the cargo decay rate is increased
14:41:01  <V453000> sounds conceptually nice but "low cost" is pretty pointless tbh .)
14:41:25  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: it's gameplay value is intended at small feeder lines
14:42:05  <V453000> cost isnt really anyhow important, you just have to make a more profittable network if it is an issue but that isnt too relevant to trains themselves
14:42:13  <V453000> something like faster but weaker freight would be nice for that
14:42:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but there are only few examples of that kind
14:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> BR41 would fall into that category
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14:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause> smaller but faster than BR44
14:43:20  <NGC3982_2> Evening, gentelemen.
14:43:22  <V453000> ah, realistic trains
14:43:24  <NGC3982_2> Basic question:
14:43:47  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise you can usually use passenger engines for that job
14:44:10  <V453000> ah right
14:44:10  <NGC3982_2>
14:44:12  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. V160, which is "universal" anyway
14:44:29  <NGC3982_2> If that train comes to any of the destinations a day early, will it wait until the travel time is 14 days?
14:44:49  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982_2: the timetable is not complete
14:45:00  <NGC3982_2> What have i missed? :)
14:45:08  <Eddi|zuHause> the waiting times at the station
14:45:19  <V453000> that is nice. I prefer having passengers as strong, fast, awesome - but passenger only trains ... but having passenger engines able to go with cargo and be like a FAST class, well, not too bad I would say :)
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14:45:49  <drac_boy> hi
14:46:10  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: well. for "fast. awesome" you have express, "passenger wagons" usually have fairly low speed limit
14:46:25  <michi_cc> V453000: Most of the time CETS isn't really offering many overlapping engines (unless you look at all companies at the same time, DB, ÖBB and SBB together have overlapp of course). Generally it is only one or two engines per group per axle weight class.
14:46:28  <V453000> :)
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14:46:49  <NGC3982_2> Eddi|zuHause: The idea is to make the train complete the orderlist at exactly 28 days. Since the actual completion time is 26 days, i want the train to wait (or travel) slowly up to 28 days.
14:47:03  <V453000> well, now go draw the 400 engines :P how much is done?
14:47:22  <planetmaker> V453000, all are done. Just some are a bit "square" in design ;-)
14:47:32  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982_2: you should set travel time to 13 and waiting time to 1, to have 28 days cycle time
14:47:47  <NGC3982_2> Ooh
14:47:50  * NGC3982_2 tries.
14:47:50  <V453000> planetmaker: :D
14:48:27  <drac_boy> CETS?
14:48:28  <michi_cc> The axle weight classes allow you to choose to either use your old tracks with somewhat inferior engines or upgrade to a new track type. An appropriate (base)cost structure and infrastructure maintenance let's the decision to be different for each type of network.
14:49:10  <drac_boy> sorry but just whats CETS? heh web isn't helping much even if I add 'openttd' to it
14:49:40  <planetmaker>
14:49:53  <NGC3982_2> Eddi|zuHause: I think i understand what i missed in the original process. Thank you.
14:50:00  <NGC3982_2> Eddi|zuHause: And merry christmas.
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14:50:07  <planetmaker> and for what it's worth, drac_boy, it's #3 on google for me
14:50:21  <planetmaker> with "cets openttd"
14:50:24  <Belugas> funny, sir rekamtenalp, very funny :)
14:50:33  <planetmaker> :-)
14:51:29  <drac_boy> oh that europe set
14:51:55  <drac_boy> michi_cc am I reading right that CETS has several different track types for the same gauge?
14:52:32  <planetmaker> wrong
14:52:34  <Eddi|zuHause> CETS has no track types
14:52:36  <planetmaker> cets has no tracks
14:52:58  <Eddi|zuHause> but it is prepared for a matching trackset
14:53:06  <planetmaker> ^
14:53:08  <Eddi|zuHause> which has several track types for standard gauge
14:53:08  <drac_boy> oh I see
14:53:23  <Eddi|zuHause> and optionally a narrow gauge type
14:53:26  <drac_boy> so its basically alike to the different track price+maintenance thats been present in simutrans?
14:53:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know simutrans that well
14:53:59  <Eddi|zuHause> but the idea is to model real-life "track classes"
14:54:06  <Eddi|zuHause> with different axle weight
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14:54:19  <Eddi|zuHause> (higher axle weight implies higher cost/maintenance)
14:54:33  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause mm simutrans offers 4 or 5 (I forgot now) different tracks from the cheap 50kph one to the expensive 300kph ones ... and if you eg bought a Bullet but only laid the 50kph tracks .... track maintenance would be cheap but the poor train is stuck at a very slow speed
14:54:50  <drac_boy> axle weight now thats a new one...would be interesting
14:55:02  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: if you care only about speed, you should check out NuTracks
14:55:08  <drac_boy> no more running your modern usa locomotives over older uk tracks ... HEH
14:55:17  <drac_boy> it would break the rails in only a few days if you tried
14:56:44  <drac_boy> either way I'll be interested in hearing how this rail type thing works out
14:56:54  <michi_cc> Speed is mostly dependent on track alignment and geometry and not on the way the rails and the track bed are constructed, so using speed to differentiate track types in-game is rather unrealistic (if I dare to say that :)
14:58:09  <drac_boy> michi_cc maybe but don't express train expect well ballasted true rails ... while an once-a-day lowdown freight wouldn't care for wobby weedy tracks ballast or not?
14:58:24  <drac_boy> just saying thats why I thought about speed in general
14:59:34  <michi_cc> The proposed CETS track set would still set some speed limits as e.g. the ICE3 or TGV have a very low axle weight and we don't want them to run well on very cheap tracks.
14:59:36  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: yes, there are some limits like speed over switches and stuff that depend on the way the rails itself are constructed, but if you think 200km/h vs. 300km/h, the curviness of the track is rather of concern
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15:01:08  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause hm actually you do have a point there, I think UIC defined highspeed turnouts ... compared to usa which often had a 30-50kph speed restriction (even still applies to some of the amtrak acela routes too...) on the branching leg of a turnout even if th straight leg was good for over 100kph
15:01:29  <michi_cc> drac_boy: This is Europe, not the US. Even disused and abandoned rail lines often look better than what US freight companies consider acceptable track.
15:05:53  <drac_boy> yeah I agree
15:06:29  <Flygon> Come to Australia
15:06:37  <drac_boy> heh hi flygon :P
15:06:42  <Flygon> We have lines with 25-40km/h speed restrictions
15:06:48  <Flygon> This's considered freight grade
15:06:56  <Flygon> The track is corrospondingly terrible
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15:10:59  <Flygon> Interestingly, it's not often track condition for passenger lines that creates speed restrictions
15:11:04  <Flygon> But level crossings
15:11:10  <Flygon> High Speed lines run into curve issues, though
15:11:29  <Flygon> But I'd bet  that they'd be 200km/h+ worthy without level crossings
15:13:35  <drac_boy> hmmmm
15:13:51  <drac_boy> don't  see any recentish threads with the name cets or europe .. wonder what kind of trains they have
15:13:52  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the fastest switches i know have 200km/h on the branching side, but those are really rare. mostly you have a "slow" version with 100km/h straight and 40km/h branching, ocassionally faster versions with 60km/h branching
15:14:07  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: there is no thread yet
15:15:11  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: there will be a thread when we have a semi-complete 0.1(-alpha) version
15:15:57  <drac_boy> oh ok
15:21:19  <planetmaker> the CETS thread is on IRC and on the link I gave earlier :-)
15:21:34  <planetmaker> and the links found at the link I provided. E.g. the tracking table
15:24:50  <Flygon> Eddi: Don't the specially designed HSR switches have a theoretically unlimited speed? Due to lack of gaps?
15:25:00  <Flygon> Just that the curve of the lines matters?
15:26:10  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no such thing as a "theoretically unlimited speed"
15:26:31  <Flygon> Theoretically in the sense that
15:26:54  <Flygon> Pretty much nothing goes over 320km/h in any possible environment where you could need a switch :p
15:27:07  <drac_boy> either way I finally looked up that dutch furniture thing earlier this morning.....
15:27:19  <drac_boy> will have to spend a while reading about it in the afternoon..sure is a lot there for Objects heh
15:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: there is no theoretical limit to switch speed, yes, it's just a matter how much you want to pay
15:28:06  <Flygon> Eddi: Fryillion dollars
15:33:29  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: But there is a limit: Surface area of the earth :) No amount of money will prevent you (or your passengers) from getting mushed on the side wall if the turnout is too sharp.
15:33:47  <drac_boy> HEH
15:34:01  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: who said you're limited to earth? :)
15:34:33  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: and the question was "is there a limit to switch speed beyond curve speed itself"
15:35:27  <michi_cc> Constructing a rail line between two objects in relative motion might get tricky :p
15:45:33  <Flygon> Look
15:45:40  <Flygon> If we want to solve the curve problem
15:45:45  <Eddi|zuHause> there are movable rails, like at an open pit mine :)
15:45:52  <Flygon> We just need to use intergalactic freight trains
15:45:56  <Flygon> And use light prisims as switches
15:46:17  <Flygon> Just be sure to roll after you jump out of one
15:46:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: incidentally, a prism works by changing the speed of light
15:46:52  <Flygon> Forgive me, I'm very tired x3
15:47:14  <Flygon> I watched Futurama, it's stuck in my head, it's the 21st, and it's 2:46AM
15:47:21  <Flygon> I'm probably gonna sleep on tthe keyboard :D
15:47:26  <Flygon> Night, peeps :))
15:47:28  <peter1138> changable constants
15:47:49  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: speed of light isn't a constant
15:47:56  <Eddi|zuHause> speed of light in vacuum is a constant
15:48:07  <Eddi|zuHause> but a prism doesn't consist of vacuum :)
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15:59:58  <drac_boy> hm can the catenary mast be on both sides or only one side of the track? just wondering
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16:06:52  <Eddi|zuHause> in OpenTTD the catenary poles can be on either side of the track, but not on both at the same time
16:08:13  <drac_boy> ah, thought it was still only one side
16:08:15  <drac_boy> thanks
16:09:33  <Eddi|zuHause> in TTDPatch, the catenary poles switch from left to right and back, in OpenTTD they are on the same side but on two parallel tracks the side is switched
16:10:26  <Eddi|zuHause> near crossings and switches, the poles may be moved to a place that does not have a track
16:13:32  <drac_boy> and I had a quick look at a few posts on that nutracks dev thread ... if they can include two types of narrow gauge and maybe one broad too that would be a nice track grf for just about any players and countries :)
16:18:26  <Eddi|zuHause> tell that to them, not us :)
16:19:55  <drac_boy> heh yeah I know..when I have time I'll see what the latest progress is and see if anyone else noticed that or not
16:20:08  <drac_boy> because broad gauge...well....would be russia and spain in a major way afaik :P
16:20:37  <drac_boy> and narrow gauge? umm I think I'll rather not  mention it..theres just way too many out there
16:21:57  <drac_boy> nice that they did define 3rd rail tho
16:22:03  <drac_boy> some french people may like that after all
16:26:45  <V453000> lol that thing with water towers is funny Eddi, I didnt know that
16:26:57  <Eddi|zuHause> what's particularly french about 3rd rail?
16:28:23  <drac_boy> oh don't know, just that I noticed a lot of the early electrifications were 3rd rail instead of overhead wire ... beats me as to why but its there
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16:28:46  <drac_boy> even the one steep route into switzerland still was laid on 3rd rail
16:28:52  <Eddi|zuHause> england used extensive 3rd rail networks
16:29:00  <drac_boy> SR wasn't it?
16:29:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and lots of commuter rail systems
16:29:46  <Eddi|zuHause> almost all subways in the world
16:30:25  <drac_boy> well...subways can't be done in openttd yet ... commuters - a bit different from a freights shared 3rd rail system but fair enough :)
16:30:29  <Eddi|zuHause> (except trams which they placed underground)
16:32:50  <drac_boy> ...what is a benzolmotor now
16:33:06  * drac_boy looks at unhelpful wikipedia
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16:42:26  <drac_boy> anyway better find some lunch to eat etc
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17:43:13  * lobster wonders into the channel
17:43:25  <lobster> anyone 'round?
17:43:48  <Prof_Frink> Nope.
17:48:23  * bb10X drops lobster in boiling water
17:49:32  <lobster> awwwwww
17:49:32  <FLHerne> Yes
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18:00:46  <lobster> okay, well I got a quick question
18:01:00  <lobster> as Prof_Frink and FLHerne will probably know
18:01:36  <lobster> but I updated NewStations to 0.5 and now it (OpenTTD 1.2.1) is being a bitch about missing the 0.44 grf
18:01:42  *** Mucht [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:01:43  <lobster> is there an easy solution to this
18:01:44  <lobster> ?
18:01:56  <lobster> and I mean, easier than editing the config files
18:02:45  <FLHerne> lobster: I thought 0.5 was flagged as compatible with 0.4 anyway?
18:03:00  <lobster> it is
18:03:18  <lobster> but I guess it's OTTD itself that looks at it as different
18:03:49  <FLHerne> For the purposes of loading savegames, it shouldn't mind as long as mblunck did it properly
18:04:14  <FLHerne> Although he does have this thing for 'forgetting' OTTD compatibility :-/
18:06:04  <Sacro> ~.
18:06:08  <Sacro> A~.
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18:12:26  <lobster> FLHerne: well, I hadn't seen any other people where it didn't work
18:12:29  <planetmaker> if mb set compatibility info correctly, it won't matter on load. If not, it will and openttd will refuse to accept it as compatible
18:12:51  <peter1138> You'll need OpenTTD version r24715 (or higher) to run the NewStations set.
18:12:56  <planetmaker> it won't use 0.5 while 0.44 is there
18:13:07  <lobster> I removed 0.44
18:13:10  <peter1138> 1.2.1 is not 24715 or higher
18:13:15  <lobster> filenames' the same
18:13:16  <peter1138> therefore it won't work
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18:13:29  <lobster> peter1138: that might be it
18:13:41  <planetmaker> afaik there's nothing which stops it working below, though
18:13:44  <lobster> I figured the 1.2.1 release was recenbt enough to be above that
18:13:46  <planetmaker> but... might be wrong
18:14:01  <lobster> are there still OS X nightlies though?
18:14:13  <lobster> the farm stopped at the time I played a lot
18:14:21  <lobster> someone compiled it once a week
18:14:26  * lobster checks
18:15:47  <lobster> hey, wait a minute
18:15:53  <lobster> why am I running 1.2.1
18:15:59  <lobster> 1.2.3 is the latest
18:16:01  <lobster> what the fuck
18:16:11  <peter1138> also not new enough though
18:16:22  <lobster> I should really clean up my OTTD folder
18:16:30  <lobster> there's about 10 different installs in it
18:16:35  <frosch123> planetmaker: he did not set the version info correctly
18:16:43  <frosch123> it is marked as incompatible to older grfs
18:16:44  <planetmaker> :-)
18:16:59  <lobster> 0.6.0, 0.6.2, 1.0.3, 1.2.1
18:17:02  <lobster> and a load of nightlies
18:17:11  <planetmaker> so, won't help to update your game, lobster
18:17:39  <lobster> I was afraid of that, indeed
18:17:44  <lobster> still, it's quite odd
18:17:56  <frosch123> lobster: you are definitely lacking a ottd 0.3.5 for a bigger variety
18:17:56  <lobster> no-one's commented on this before in the release thread
18:18:13  <lobster> frosch123: I'm sure I have that somewhere too, though :p
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18:24:06  <lobster> oh, hmmmm
18:24:15  <lobster> return of the dreaded base grf error
18:25:46  <Eddi|zuHause> my versions start only at 0.4.0 :/
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18:27:52  <lobster> and downloading the latest base set nightly doesn't fix the problem
18:28:00  <lobster> this is why I quit using nightlies :-/
18:30:02  <peter1138> no error here
18:30:23  <peter1138> oh i'm not using opengfx though
18:30:56  <Eddi|zuHause> remind me again why opengfx can't use openttd.grf as fallback?
18:31:36  <lobster> this is fixed when I use the original base graphics?
18:31:39  <lobster> what the
18:31:48  <lobster> that's quite odd
18:32:56  <frosch123> lobster: if you use the ogfx nightly, it will have all sprites
18:33:02  <frosch123> you probably used the latest stable
18:33:09  <lobster> nope
18:33:10  <lobster> nightly
18:33:20  <lobster> made sure I didn't download the stable, indeed
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18:33:31  <Terkhen> which revision are you using?
18:33:32  <Wolf01> hello :D
18:33:36  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01 :)
18:33:39  <frosch123> the missing sprites were added to ogfx at least one month ago
18:33:46  <lobster> this one:
18:33:49  <frosch123> so, that would mean there would have been no nighlty for a month :p
18:34:48  <Wolf01> but latest is not a valid version, maybe it's that
18:34:51  <Eddi|zuHause> lobster: more likely that you didn't put it in the right place
18:34:54  <Terkhen> lobster: I'm using that same nightly with the most recent revision and I don't get any "sprites missing" error
18:34:55  <lobster> although the various places OS X OpenTTD puts stuff I'm unsure if I've been able to delete all old files
18:35:19  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r24829 trunk/src/goal_gui.cpp (2012-12-20 18:35:13 UTC)
18:35:19  <Terkhen> lobster: open the options window and check the OpenGFX description displayed there, does it say r993?
18:35:20  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Reduce code duplication in the goal GUI
18:35:25  <lobster> well, it's in the Users/Documents/OpenTTD/Baseset folder, like the readme said
18:36:32  <lobster> actually it says 0.4.5
18:36:42  <lobster> but I've deleted that version some time ago
18:37:08  * lobster goes and checks where this thing's at
18:37:12  <Terkhen> lobster: it is grabbing it from another place then
18:37:40  <lobster> the problem is that some changes as to where the game put it's files have been confusing me
18:37:56  <lobster> I liked the everything-in-one-folder approach
18:38:10  <Terkhen> it may be placed in content_download/baseset folder too IIRC
18:38:23  <Terkhen> check the README to know the folder architecture
18:38:28  <lobster> but I now have folders in root/Library/Apllication support/OpenTTD as well
18:38:31  <lobster> dunno how they got there
18:38:38  <lobster> that could be it, Terkhen
18:38:50  <Terkhen> root? because of the Users/Document path I assumed that you were using windows
18:39:12  <Terkhen> if you are using linux... package managers sometimes like to place stuff in other folders :P
18:39:26  <glx> OSX Terkhen :)
18:39:30  <Terkhen> ooh
18:39:33  <Terkhen> strange :P
18:39:37  <lobster> OS X 10.6.8 to be exact
18:39:43  <Terkhen> I have no idea of the folders used by OSX
18:39:57  <glx> do we support 10.6 ?
18:40:02  <Alberth> Terkhen: think Linux strangeness**3 :)
18:40:17  <Terkhen> glx: we barely support OSX at all
18:40:19  <Terkhen> :P
18:40:28  * Terkhen wonders if we support Windows 8
18:40:48  <glx> it should run in desktop mode
18:40:50  <Wolf01> blocky trains, oh noes... wait, they are already so
18:41:25  <lobster> holy shit what the fuck
18:41:44  <lobster> it found ANOTHER OpenGFX somewhere
18:41:45  <lobster> and this is version 0.2.4
18:41:45  <lobster> :p
18:42:17  <__ln___>
18:45:13  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24830 trunk/src/lang/turkish.txt (2012-12-20 18:45:06 UTC)
18:45:14  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:15  <DorpsGek> turkish - 5 changes by niw3
18:47:03  <lobster> ooooh
18:47:23  <lobster> I also have the r8285 MiniIN
18:47:29  <lobster> I'll keep that one
18:47:32  <lobster> as it's pretty old
18:47:39  <Alberth> does it still run? :)
18:48:20  <lobster> oh... nope
18:48:23  <lobster> :P
18:48:29  <lobster> I'll baleete it then
18:48:38  <lobster> no use for stuff that don't even work
18:50:25  <lobster> I actually have a neat and tidy OTTD folder now
18:50:28  <lobster> how delicious
18:50:31  <lobster> let's see if it works
18:50:48  <lobster> nope
18:51:00  <lobster> the 0.2.4 version's still somewhere out there
18:51:02  <lobster> BUT WHERE
18:52:39  <Alberth> one option is to run openttd with -d 9 but that gives hell of a lot of output
18:53:32  <Alberth> you could first try -d grf=3  or so
18:53:44  <Alberth> higher numbers give more output
18:53:53  <lobster> basically launch it from Terminal, right?
18:54:07  <Alberth> I am however not sure that baseset is dumped in the "grf" stream
18:54:28  <Alberth> yes, launch from the terminal, you could redirect output to a file
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18:56:33  <Alberth> and just waiting for the intro screen is sufficient :)
18:57:42  <lobster> that worked like a charm, Alberth
18:57:52  <lobster> although I always forget that the app file is a package
18:58:01  <lobster> and it always takes me a minute to remember that
19:00:51  <lobster> found it!
19:01:04  <lobster> lil bugger was hiding in a data folder
19:02:05  <Alberth> remove everything!
19:02:18  <Alberth> files should be punished for hiding!  :p
19:02:29  <lobster> I have removed it, hah!
19:02:40  <lobster> but now it doesn't find the OpenGFX nightly
19:02:54  <lobster> guess the readme didn't get the folder for OS X right
19:03:22  <lobster> there, now it works
19:03:38  <lobster> but not the savegame
19:03:39  <lobster> obv
19:03:51  <Alberth> please file a bug report for the readme
19:03:53  <lobster> so I guess I'll turn on the scenario builder
19:04:23  <lobster> actually I did put it in the right folder, but didn't unpack it
19:04:28  <Alberth> savegame dir is next to the openttd.cfg file I think
19:04:31  <lobster> so it didn't recognize it somehow
19:04:43  <Alberth> .zip files are not recognized
19:04:46  <lobster> yeah, I removed all excess OTTD folders now
19:04:54  <lobster> indeed
19:04:57  <Alberth> .tar does work
19:05:12  <Alberth> as do plain files and directories :p
19:05:25  <lobster> so there's just users/Documents/OpenTTD and the Application folder now
19:05:39  <lobster> there's no shame in unzipping
19:05:43  <lobster> errrr
19:05:44  <lobster> wait
19:05:47  <lobster> :p
19:17:30  <lobster> thanks everyone anyway, for the help
19:17:35  * lobster jumps back to the game
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19:24:03  <lobster> actually I can't get the game loaded
19:24:45  <lobster> "For scenario developers, a configuration option exists to enable scenario developer tools, which permit changing grfs in-game (for debugging and testing). This option (scenario_developer) is only available in openttd.cfg or the console."
19:24:53  <lobster> oddly enough, I can't find that command at all
19:24:59  <lobster> or setting/variable
19:25:22  <Alberth> that doesn't sound like the error message you'd get from a failure to load a game
19:25:35  <lobster> doesn't show up when I do list_cmds s either
19:25:48  <lobster> t'is indeed not Alberth
19:26:13  <lobster> can't load it because it doesn't recognize the 0.5 NewStations as the new version of the 0.44 one
19:26:32  <lobster> so I'm trying to set the debug mode so that I can edit grf files in-game
19:26:51  <Alberth> last time I did math class, 0.44 was not  0.5 :p
19:27:08  <lobster> quite true, but MB claimed it's compatible
19:27:19  <lobster> which it clearly isn't
19:27:35  <lobster> now I'm only playing one game at a time, and I want those juicy new stations in this game
19:27:51  <lobster> but that's proving to be a tough job
19:28:01  <Alberth> then MB made an error
19:28:12  <lobster> he did
19:28:23  <lobster> and oddly enough no-one mentioned it yet
19:28:25  <Alberth> in the sense that he wrongly stated 0.44 as not compatible
19:29:03  <lobster> did everyone start a new game with the 0.5 version?
19:29:07  <lobster> I can't imagine that
19:29:34  <Terkhen> the new version of NewStations is not on the online content either?
19:30:37  <FLHerne> Terkhen: It's mblunck being a TTDP-supremacist again :-(
19:30:40  <Alberth> lobster: I always continue playing with the grfs I started with
19:31:26  <Terkhen> FLHerne: given the interest that MB NewGRFs raise, I was hoping for a practical solution for them
19:31:51  <FLHerne> Terkhen: You persuade him, then :P
19:32:04  <Terkhen> I don't know his particular reasons for not using the online content, I never pay much attention to NewGRFs that I cannot use without having to do everything manually
19:32:11  <FLHerne> At least three people inc. me have asked about it in the release thread :P
19:32:54  <lobster> I don't think it's a good idea to ask MB for that though
19:32:58  <lobster> he's really stubborn
19:33:08  <lobster> for no reason at all, obv
19:33:31  <lobster> I think he believes there's no control from his side on BaNaNa-content
19:33:43  <lobster> or something like that
19:34:13  <Alberth> I would really like to understand it, but so far I failed :(
19:34:26  <Terkhen> I was just curious in case I was able to test the NewGRF... his reasons are his reasons, I'm not going to enter any debates :P
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19:36:49  <Alberth> lobster: I am really wondering what it is, which goes wrong.
19:37:33  <lobster> Alberth: with the newgrf? probably different grf-id
19:37:44  <lobster> or something trivial like that
19:38:25  <Alberth> lobster: with not having control on BaNaNas content. He also has no control about what players do with his grf
19:39:09  <lobster> yeah, he's just anal about that I guess
19:39:23  * lobster brb
19:44:10  <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r24831 trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp (2012-12-20 19:43:54 UTC)
19:44:11  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5398]: [NewGRF] Incorrect values are better than a crash when a NewGRF queries vehicle variable 4C before vehicle initialisation is completed.
19:44:14  <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r24832 /trunk/src (roadveh_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp) (2012-12-20 19:43:58 UTC)
19:44:15  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5397]: [NewGRF] Take bridge speed limits into account for vehicle variable 4C.
19:44:18  <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r24833 /trunk/src (7 files) (2012-12-20 19:44:02 UTC)
19:44:19  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Replace magic numbers for invalidating vehicle-related windows with an enum.
19:44:22  <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r24834 /trunk/src (order_gui.cpp train_cmd.cpp) (2012-12-20 19:44:06 UTC)
19:44:23  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5396]: The autorefit dropdown in the order GUI wasn't always updated when modifying vehicle consists.
20:21:52  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
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20:27:20  <andythenorth> bonsoir
20:31:45  <Alberth> evenink
20:34:58  <lobster> HUNGRY
20:35:01  <lobster> also hallo
20:38:10  * Alberth presses 'pause' at the openttd game toolbar for lobster
20:38:33  <lobster> you pause for me!
20:38:40  <lobster> it's so romantic!
20:38:42  <lobster> \o/
20:38:59  <Alberth> we can't have players die-ing of hunger!
20:39:10  <lobster> now that is quite true
20:39:21  <lobster> although I am cooking, so I won't be dead for too long
20:39:29  <lobster> delicious boerenkool :3
20:40:43  <Alberth> with aardappelen, I guess :)
20:41:27  <Rubidium> Alberth: nah, with patat ;)
20:41:49  <Alberth> interesting combination :)
20:42:04  <lobster> stamppot obv :D
20:42:17  <lobster> with a truly delicious ambachtelijke rookworst, and spekjes
20:42:19  <lobster> and jus
20:42:23  <Rubidium> Alberth: I reckon you're not south enough yet ;)
20:42:34  * lobster is already watering at the mouth with the promise of deliciousness
20:42:38  <Rubidium> though I would've reckoned Eindhoven is southern enough
20:42:55  <Alberth> it must be my northern roots :p
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22:03:31  <V453000> planetmaker: I think I have figured it out finally
22:04:11  <Supercheese>  Oooh, shiny
22:05:14  <frosch123> are the columns inside the columns different railtypes?
22:05:26  <welshdragon> Gentlemen, I wish to find infrastructure costs (how much it is to build x type of track), How is this defined in OpenTTD? I'm assuming in the NewGRF?
22:05:48  <frosch123> the railtype defines it
22:05:55  <frosch123> and there is a base cost multiplier
22:06:05  <frosch123> for general infrastructure cost
22:06:35  <V453000> yes frosch
22:06:46  <V453000> I originally intended to put some rails there to make that obvious
22:07:09  <frosch123> what? why does the logic train have generations?
22:07:25  <V453000> well technically, those three are rail/mono/mag
22:07:34  <frosch123> ah
22:07:49  <V453000> the bonus "class" has it mixed up a bit
22:08:14  <frosch123> i never reached any of the rainbow class
22:08:19  <V453000> the rest should be 1/2/3 rail/mono/maglev
22:08:31  <V453000> lol :d
22:08:40  <V453000> well you play 7 years games with andy ..
22:08:52  <frosch123> also in singleplayer :p
22:08:59  <V453000> :P
22:09:16  <V453000> the rainbow class gets some friends on 0.4.0
22:09:22  <frosch123> when i still had time i played 256x256
22:09:22  <V453000> not shown here yet :)
22:09:30  <frosch123> now i usually only play 128x256
22:09:42  <V453000> 256x256 is fun
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22:12:47  <frosch123> V453000: i know that you don't like closed wagons, why is the pax wagon closed?
22:13:03  <V453000> I actually really considered making them open :D
22:13:05  <frosch123> cabriolet!
22:13:17  <V453000> exactly :D
22:13:31  <frosch123> ok, at least you considered it :)
22:13:41  <V453000> I am drawing a new class of wagons so it isnt completely unlikely to happen very soon
22:13:58  <V453000> hm those trains will actually probably not have passenger support
22:13:59  <V453000> so ye
22:14:04  <V453000> still, it is possible :)
22:14:42  <frosch123> there seem to be quite a lot of wagons around 1990-2000
22:15:00  <V453000> I mainly am going to add super complex feature of flexible train stats - train is longer -> engine has more/less power
22:15:06  <frosch123> ah, railtypes again i guess
22:15:15  <V453000> yeah the new ones are monorail
22:15:52  <frosch123> why is there a monorail local engine, but no pax wagons?
22:15:56  <frosch123> or am i misreading that?
22:16:17  <V453000> the upper 1990 is monorail
22:16:24  <V453000> wagon to the right is passenger
22:16:31  <V453000> or express, to be exact
22:17:33  <Terkhen> good night
22:17:37  <V453000> gn
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22:21:42  <drac_boy> hi
22:21:47  <frosch123> night
22:21:50  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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22:32:17  <drac_boy> so I'm just ask a slight dumb question, in the rail buy list .. everything betwen Cost: to Max Reliability: are pretty much fixed there but any extra lines below that can be optionally added as long as you don't go too crazy? (I can not imagine having 30+ lines of details in that one window heh)
22:33:22  <V453000> you can add as many lines as you want I guess
22:33:29  <__ln___> HAS THE WORLD ENDED YET?
22:33:44  <V453000> additional_text: string(STR_NAME_LOGIC); in graphics{}
22:33:57  <V453000> substitute STR_NAME_LOGIC With your string .. :)
22:34:33  <drac_boy> V453000 well I mean theres 7 lines already now .. how would a user feel like if it changed to 30 lines all just for one single lousy locomotive? :P
22:34:51  <V453000> would you really write there 30 lines?
22:35:39  <drac_boy> I think the ones for HEQS seem to be a little long enough sometimes ... a few times I've had the buy list placed near bottom of openttd window .. then click on one of these tram .. and the two buttons proceed to shoot out of bound :->
22:35:56  <drac_boy> V453000 of course not, that was just an example :P
22:36:23  <V453000> hm :)
22:36:38  <V453000> I think NUTS adds up to like 5-7 lines
22:36:40  <V453000> not sure how many max
22:36:57  <drac_boy> mm 14 lines sounds fine with me still .. thats not too much height space needed
22:37:48  <drac_boy> what do you have these 5-7 lines for? just wondering
22:37:50  <V453000> yeah up to 7
22:38:09  <V453000> have a look yourself :) wagon capacities, train class, info about tilt
22:38:14  <V453000> attachment info
22:38:34  <V453000> wagon loading speeds
22:38:51  <V453000> and other important info
22:39:04  <V453000> and sometimes just some pseudo-funny quotes
22:40:08  <drac_boy> heh .. sounds interesting
22:40:38  <V453000> it is really good to know all the details
22:40:59  <V453000> and I got a lot of positive feedback for that, too ... so it isnt just me probably :)
22:41:14  <drac_boy> anyway about that...I don't know if you want to give me any "realistic" answers or not...but do you think that stating whether a wagon is braked or not braked should be known in the wagon's classification name and/or as an extra detail in the buy list?
22:41:56  <V453000> depends what does that mean for the player
22:42:25  <V453000> if it is as imortant info as "vehicle is red" then you probably know the answer, if it defines which trains can the wagon be attached to, it almost has to be there
22:42:40  <V453000> my opinion at least
22:44:05  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___:
22:44:42  <V453000> wait I thought it was at teh end of 21th?
22:44:50  <V453000> IM NOT DRUNK YET
22:44:54  <drac_boy> well I meant like eg  a  wagon named 'Kb goods van' as in K class and braked  ...  or the buy list has a 'Brakes:' field .... or even a combination of both
22:45:28  <drac_boy> heh Eddi|zuHause
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22:45:36  <V453000> what use for gameplay does that have?
22:45:43  <drac_boy> this whole maya thing has been going around for a while I just don't understand any of it anymore
22:45:44  <V453000> you cant for example attach engine X to braked wagon?
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22:46:25  <drac_boy> V453000 because if its unbraked then it needs a brake van before it'll want to leave the depot
22:46:39  <V453000> well then it is quite important info
22:46:45  <V453000> brake vans are dumb btw
22:48:33  <drac_boy> maybe but theres actually some instances of it not being a dedicated brake van but as a part of another wagon ... say a bogie covered wagon with 3/4 of space given over to goods as usual but then other 1/4 for the brake compartment
22:48:48  <drac_boy> but yeah most of the times brake van are just empty cars in term of gameplay
22:49:16  <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, some wagons had a brake cab (waaay less than 3/4 space)
22:49:26  <drac_boy> come to think about it germany and switzerland had a lot of handbraked wagons
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22:49:47  <V453000> empty cars with only the complication to attachment allowances
22:49:48  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause yeah these little wooden huts indeed
22:50:01  <V453000> if you want to make wagons less effective, just reduce their capacity
22:50:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely saw a statistics that said about every 4th wagon was with brake
22:50:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i won't model braked/unbraked wagons in CETS
22:50:42  <drac_boy> Eddi|zuHause you know, I always wondered how come the brake huts are always raised to just a bit above the roofline .. always requires a bit of a ladder-like stairway to get to it
22:50:49  <Eddi|zuHause> except through random graphics variations maybe
22:50:54  <drac_boy> or is it because they need to be able to view the train for some reason?
22:51:24  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: the "communication" between people went over the roof of the train
22:51:41  <drac_boy> ohhh flag/flashlight signals kind of things?
22:51:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the "train leader" had to see the individual people operating the brakes
22:51:55  <drac_boy> makes sense now
22:52:37  <Eddi|zuHause> also the cabooses had a raised roof, where the "train leader" would sit
22:52:57  <Eddi|zuHause> or in passenger trains the luggage wagon
22:53:06  <drac_boy> pre-airbrakes in usa there were a lot of young people as Club men (not sure if that was the offical name) whose's only job were to walk down the roof plankways and tighten the brake wheels with clubs as soon as the engineer whistled for brakes.  dangerous job indeed
22:53:25  <drac_boy> don't know where they stayed at when not needed .. probably still sitting on the roof :-s
22:54:23  <drac_boy> airbrakes removed that job .. and eventually even FRA more or less banned any roof walkways existance for good as well
22:55:47  <drac_boy> I'm thinking I wouldn't model brakes too much (beside in 1920 how likely is it theres anything thats still unbraked?) but may still provide the graphics just for the user to use if they wanted some realism in train makeups
22:56:01  <drac_boy> still have to look through some more datas to decide yet
22:56:49  <Eddi|zuHause> a) i start ~1870, and b) 1920 was only the beginning of widespread air pressure braking
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22:57:07  * drac_boy wouldn't complain about early starters :P
23:02:22  <drac_boy> btw I don't know if it might have confused some player a bit too much but I do wonder about some railroads that ran a mix of seperate vaccum and air braked consists
23:02:31  <drac_boy> can't mix them obviously
23:03:36  <Wolf01> 'nighty night
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23:03:46  <V453000> there were multiple reasons why I didnt actually make earlier engines than 1920 ... first off, if you start too early, you would need ridiculously strong/capacitous trains later on, which is pretty bad - all that because industries would start growing earlier. Secondly because the early trains would have to be slower than current 1920 trains which could get to a point of boringly slow. And well, I thought 150 years of new trains coming is go
23:05:08  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: it's fine, you're going further into the future instead
23:05:22  <V453000> I guess
23:05:36  <Eddi|zuHause> 1870-2013 is also around 150 years :)
23:05:46  <V453000> yeah that is true
23:06:59  <drac_boy> heh heh
23:10:02  <V453000> well, more features tomorrow
23:10:02  <V453000> gnight
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23:18:13  <drac_boy> future ... 2015+ sets anyone? and it better have ground-hovering road vehicles with very high speed but poor cornering :P
23:18:19  <drac_boy> heh heh
23:18:46  <Eddi|zuHause> *cough*OTTD+500*cough*
23:19:35  <drac_boy> 500?
23:23:05  <drac_boy> what you mean by 500 there anyway?
23:24:30  <Supercheese> Bleh, road vehicles can't go diagonally so they're no good for diagonal long-distance routes
23:24:49  <drac_boy> its not road vehicle .. its the map grid ;)
23:24:56  <Supercheese> Anyway, future vehicles are all about VTOL craft
23:25:01  <Supercheese> haul everything by "helicopters"
23:25:28  <drac_boy> except how do you exempt the idiot drivers? theres some things better left on the ground :)
23:25:34  <drac_boy> just had to say that heh heh
23:25:39  <Supercheese> I've made some future cargo aircraft, but since I plagarized sprites I can't distribute them :(
23:25:47  <drac_boy> mm
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23:30:44  <drac_boy> anything you currently working on or not so much?
23:31:09  <Supercheese> I'm wanting to release a newobjects set
23:31:18  <Supercheese> gotta work on it over Christmas break
23:34:55  <drac_boy> what sort of objects?
23:35:42  <Supercheese> The main objects, and what I expect to be the most popular, are circling seagulls
23:35:48  <Supercheese> great for harbors/fishing grounds
23:36:03  <drac_boy> heh
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23:36:44  <Supercheese> I also would like to do a shark, an aircraft carrier, and maybe some more
23:36:50  <Supercheese> but as I said, I've a lot to work on
23:38:42  <drac_boy> so that would have the flags set to a value of 1611 you think? :-p editor only, not removeable, on water, animated (looks better no?), not drawn on land, and water tile drawn underneath :)
23:38:59  <drac_boy> or thats as far as I've recognized the flags thing for Objects yet :)
23:39:11  <Supercheese> Flags? I use NML
23:39:47  <drac_boy> well meh that goes to show how broken the wiki seem to be .. it lists newgrf but wouldn't list the non-nfo things sometimes
23:39:55  <Supercheese> sorry
23:39:57  <drac_boy> mm
23:39:57  <Supercheese> wrong object
23:40:09  <Supercheese> that's the right one
23:40:19  <Supercheese> animation_info:				[ANIMATION_LOOPING, 18];
23:40:56  <drac_boy> and why is there two wikis when the latter one seem to redirect you to the former on a lot of links anyway :->
23:41:08  * drac_boy will rather not get too far into this tho
23:41:53  <drac_boy> either way supercheese sounds like an interesting object to release on december 31 maybe :)
23:42:41  <Supercheese> No idea when I'll finish/release it :|
23:43:00  <drac_boy> me neither heh
23:43:03  <Supercheese> I have 1 working animated seagull (which looks real neat IMO), but that was the easiest
23:43:33  <Supercheese> seagull flock* rather
23:45:08  <drac_boy> that reminds me
23:45:37  <drac_boy> I wonder how that thing work where ecs includes 'extra' buildings into a town .. and they don't have the usual acceptance/output as houses do
23:46:03  <drac_boy> doubt its actually objects or .. is it
23:46:05  <Supercheese> They're just custom houses
23:50:38  <drac_boy> not sure if you might know anything about this quick question just to check: can you alter the yearly cost through livery-like refit?
23:50:42  <drac_boy> for wagons and so
23:50:56  <Supercheese> Do you use NML or NFO?
23:51:08  <Supercheese> I know precisely nothing about NFO
23:51:30  <drac_boy> atm nfo since I'll like to release it initially with patch support.  and thanks anyway, I'll just find that out eventually later on anyway :)
23:51:51  <Supercheese> Yeah sorry, raw hex makes my brain ache
23:52:36  <drac_boy> heh np. I'm actually going to make a commented template (and check it with someone) then reuse it over and over for each wagons I wanted.  I know it'll be a bit larger files but meh whats the harm :)
23:53:00  <drac_boy> right now its just mainly tracking table and slowly drawing some sprites atm
23:54:31  <drac_boy> supercheese you know..I did play a little bit with xml but just don't have any interest anymore now tho. especially when its difficult to even find anyone to help you with xslt to parse it ... oh well meh to that!
23:55:27  <Supercheese> .xml? Not for OTTD, then, eh?
23:56:26  <drac_boy> actually heh no .. for website
23:56:28  <drac_boy> :)
23:59:14  <drac_boy> supercheese I don't know how much you would be into actual trains but do you think doubledeck coaches were usually only for passengers. its unlikely any of these types ever had mail sections?
23:59:58  <Supercheese> Hmm, most Amtraks I've seen I'm pretty sure have been passenger only

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