Log for #openttd on 2nd January 2013:
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00:00:07  <FLHerne> What railtype and trainset?
00:00:17  <dot_> I wasn't aware you could switch railtypes
00:00:27  <dot_> just using the normal black tracks
00:01:47  <FLHerne> dot_: Are you using the default trains?
00:02:04  <dot_> again, you can switch these things? Where?
00:02:15  <FLHerne> dot_: NewGrf settings
00:02:27  <FLHerne> You should really read the tutorial on the wiki ;-)
00:03:07  <dot_> I just wanted to know why I can't have any engines, but I can have all the cars, planes and boats
00:03:11  <FLHerne> Actually, that might not cover it ;-)
00:03:25  <FLHerne> dot_: If you hold down the rail icon on the main toolbar
00:03:40  <FLHerne> It should show a list of normal rail through to maglev
00:04:10  <FLHerne> By 3000, you should have maglevs available, but I think normal rail vehicles expire before than
00:04:10  <dot_> so...can I convert already lain track?
00:04:27  <FLHerne> dot_: Yes, but you should send the trains to depot first
00:04:37  <dot_> no trains exist lol
00:04:43  <FLHerne> Alternatively, set engines not to expire date-wise
00:04:56  <FLHerne> If no trains exist, just convert it :P
00:05:07  <dot_> so I'm waiting for you to tell me how
00:05:15  <FLHerne> Select maglev, then the thing with the semi-circular arrow on
00:05:18  <FLHerne> dot_: :D
00:05:29  <dot_> alrighty then
00:05:42  <dot_> so, new tracks, old stuff doesn't work, got it
00:06:08  <FLHerne> Then drag that across your existing network, and it'll charge you lots of money for the privilege :D
00:07:38  <dot_> boats are much more profitable than trains, it seems. I got 2 mill pretty quick
00:08:14  <FLHerne> dot_: Not always. Well set-up rail networks can be *very* profitable
00:08:30  <FLHerne> Boats and planes can be more profitable for a given amount of effort, though
00:08:40  <dot_> right
00:08:50  <FLHerne> No signalling or network design makes them much easier to use :-)
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00:09:54  <FLHerne> When you get bored of the default vehicles/cargos/hideous trees, try another game with some NewGRFs. The standard ones aren't great IMO :P
00:10:10  <dot_> is it just me or do the supposed shift and ctrl functions not work in windows?
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00:10:49  <FLHerne> dot_: I don't use Windows. Probably just you though, or people would be moaning on the forums
00:10:57  <FLHerne> Unless it's Win8?
00:11:02  <dot_> nah
00:11:31  <dot_> maybe it just doesn't like 64 bit? I know 64 bit windows messes up all kinds of crap that shouldn't even matter
00:11:47  <FLHerne> dot_: Again, no-one else complains...
00:11:55  <FLHerne> Does ctrl+X work?
00:12:13  <FLHerne> That one's at least simple, should pop up a floating toolbar thing
00:12:36  <dot_> yeah that works
00:12:47  <dot_> but shift and ctrl for pricing and whatnot don't
00:12:47  <FLHerne> What didn't?
00:12:51  <FLHerne> Ah.
00:13:12  * dot_ shrugs
00:13:32  <dot_> I just try to make enough money where I don't need to worry about whether I can afford it
00:13:43  <FLHerne> So, drag track, release while holding shift doesn't give you a quote? :-/
00:14:10  <FLHerne> Do you have some non-standard thing for creating keyboard shortcuts?
00:14:33  <Zuu> Eg. do you run AutoHotKey?
00:14:54  <dot_> no
00:15:24  <FLHerne> dot_: Might sound insulting, but my guess is you're doing it wrong somehow :P
00:16:03  <dot_> you're right about that, I didn't wipe vista when I got it, I started moving stuff over to the point I couldn't switch anymore :P
00:17:10  <dot_> was supposed to come with a free 7 upgrade but it wouldn't let me. Turns out HP imaged copies aren't "legitimate"
00:18:14  <FLHerne> dot_: Linux > Windows anyway :P
00:18:27  <dot_> linux does not support my work software
00:18:52  <dot_> the whole usb dongle thing on top of wine not supporting it kinda kills the deal
00:19:55  <FLHerne> Ah well, that kind of thing can be a pain. What software?
00:20:04  <dot_> I feel like the usb security is kinda pointless. If they can bypass the serial, they can bypass a dongle check
00:20:09  <dot_> mastercam and solidworks
00:20:13  <dot_> CAD software
00:21:04  <FLHerne> Presumably LibreCAD is insufficiently featurised :-(
00:21:13  * FLHerne is tired enough to be inventing words now
00:22:14  <dot_> never heard of it. Can it generate models from pictures? Or come with a library of machine gcode settings and tools?
00:22:28  <__ln__> dot_: ideally, the dongle would perform some actual data processing, so it couldn't be circumvented just by bypassing a 'dongle check'.
00:22:28  <dot_> if so, would be nice to get off buggy mastercam
00:22:49  <dot_> __ln__, you'd think so, but I've seen people with working pirated copies
00:23:11  <dot_> somewhere in the program is still has to run checks to see what it's doing
00:23:20  <FLHerne> dot_: No idea. I'm not a professional CAD-software user, so I don't even know exactly what the latter is :P
00:23:45  <FLHerne> I only use it to design glorified tables to keep my model railway on...
00:23:53  <dot_> lol
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00:24:18  <drac_boy> heh
00:25:00  <__ln__> obviously, everything can be bypassed with enough work.
00:25:16  * drac_boy only has an old 2D CAD suite because of nothing else being either 1. less than a thousand dollars to buy or 2. works on linux
00:25:30  <drac_boy> but mm I never use it too much so not too bothered by it for now
00:28:12  <FLHerne> AAARGH! Who bought decaffeinated tea? WHAT POSSIBLE USE IS DECAFFEINATED TEA!?
00:28:27  <drac_boy> at least theres always Dia for charts and flowcharts ... and works on both windows and linux
00:28:33  <FLHerne> Ah well, better than nothing I suppose...
00:28:33  <drac_boy> ms visio and any others can go to hell :)
00:28:40  <FLHerne> And yes, Dia is great :-)
00:28:54  <drac_boy> FLHerne I would had probably wanted that too.. I hate sugar or caffeinate :->
00:29:26  <FLHerne> Calligra Flow is quite good for that, too
00:29:48  <__ln__> Dia is nearly useless for anything bigger.
00:29:55  <drac_boy> mind you flherne I doubt you'll want any of my drinks I have here :p
00:29:57  <FLHerne> drac_boy: We must be opposites. Strong tea with three sugars, ideally :P
00:30:44  <FLHerne> __ln__: Yeah, but it's good for little diagrams. Bigger stuff, LibreCAD if it's an object or Flow if it's a circuit
00:31:11  <drac_boy> goat milk....ground water (a bit mild on the hardness scale last I recall) ... caffeinate-free wheat soft drink .... whole wheat beer with low sugar content .. and a few more in that list
00:31:17  <FLHerne> As in, a diagram of a circuit rather than the physical manifestation of it :P
00:32:45  <drac_boy> FLHerne the funny thing tho is I've been thinking about to later or tomorrow try draw the industry vectors into Dia just to see if the lines connecting things would be more helpful than a static spreadsheet listing
00:32:47  <FLHerne> drac_boy: You must be crazy :P
00:32:54  <drac_boy> crazy? nope..just healthy on a budget :)
00:33:38  <drac_boy> the funny thing tho is the milk and beer are produced in south quebec yet sold in many major stores, quite 'local' food indeed :)
00:34:27  <FLHerne> Water here is very hard - limestone under all the mud. Never got used to soft water :P
00:35:18  <drac_boy> FLHerne not too sure if I would like that tho...
00:36:04  <drac_boy> and mind you I almost got a bit of sick stomach after one good lunch on a short vacation...turns out the area uses softener on their city water system ... UGH .... thnakfully I was able to find some good natural spring bottles for the rest of the short stay
00:36:24  <drac_boy> so yeah .. soft water forget it ... hardy water I'm not too sure .. hard water softened forget it!
00:36:31  <drac_boy> :->
00:37:48  <drac_boy> FLHerne what do you think of fluriode?
00:38:02  <FLHerne> Ambivalent
00:38:22  <FLHerne> I don't even care enough to know if we have it here :P
00:38:53  <drac_boy> heh...I don't like it period
00:40:49  <drac_boy> FLHerne I know its never true but I always liked these silly jokes about strong cup of coffee/tea...
00:41:07  <drac_boy> sometimes too strong enough that the spoon you left in it to stir literally stuck to the whole thing as if its ice instead of liquid
00:41:14  <drac_boy> :)
00:42:08  <FLHerne> drac_boy: Well, my self-stirring mug often gets jammed with accidentally-precipitated sugar :P
00:42:50  <drac_boy> or to a moreorless true thing..drinking too much caffeine makes some people way too jumpy
00:42:56  <FLHerne> re. fluoride - just don't try and enact Dr. Stangelove in real life :P
00:43:04  <drac_boy> reminds me of a ZIT comic strip....
00:43:56  <drac_boy> he told his friend to wait a second...he went to tap one of his girlfriend who went to literally shoot up to the ceiling .. end up hanging off the light fixture yelling at him to never do that again...he was walking away with his friend remarking "they should had never opened that starbuck next door"
00:44:14  <drac_boy> talk about her being too hypersensitive :)
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00:47:19  <drac_boy> mmm dia charts reminds me that I still need to find one of my email address so I could sign up to forum
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00:52:40  <dot_> why is it that the bridges always go up? Why can't we just have flat bridges?
00:52:53  <FLHerne> dot_: You can...
00:53:11  <dot_> there are like wooden ones but they claim to limit speed to snail pace
00:53:13  <FLHerne> Build a bridge with the first tile on a slope :P
00:53:40  <FLHerne> Or both ends on slopes facing towards each other
00:53:51  <dot_> ok, but why not flat normally?
00:54:03  <dot_> can't run a boat through a river
00:54:11  <FLHerne> Because then they wouldn't be high enough to go over whatever they went over?
00:54:15  <drac_boy> dot_ actually you can
00:54:21  <dot_> really? Hm..
00:54:35  <drac_boy> just use the canal locks when it comes to connecting with the actual level 0 water from edge of map
00:54:55  <drac_boy> the only thing you can't do is sending boats up a rapid (its always sloped tile) obviously
00:55:55  <FLHerne> dot_: As drac_boy said, you need to build locks next to or on top of the rapids. Depending on shape of river, you might need a bit of canal to make it all fit
00:56:41  <drac_boy> its too bad that theres no actual locks due to various limitations :P
00:57:00  <dot_> I need to work on my signaling
00:57:24  <FLHerne> dot_: The wiki tutorial has a few good articles on that
00:57:37  <dot_> not good enough
00:57:49  <dot_> I've read them but they don't give examples
00:57:52  <drac_boy> dot_ got a screenshot of what you're trying to do then?
00:57:59  <drac_boy> dot_ umm they do
00:58:03  <dot_> I don't get exactly what they do
00:58:05  <drac_boy> theres lot of cropped screenshots
00:58:08  <FLHerne> Simplest way to do it: One track in each direction, path signals every few tiles, be careful with junctions
00:58:24  <FLHerne> And yes, there were lots of screenshots last time I looked
00:58:30  <drac_boy> FLHerne can I ask why you need path when theres nothing but only one single path all the times :P
00:59:05  <dot_> a few screenshots but I want better descriptions. Yes I understand that a signal needs a green up the track this and tree that blah blah, but that doesn't tell me when I use them
00:59:14  <FLHerne> Really, only the two (four counting the types that work identically) on the right you need to worry about
00:59:52  <drac_boy> you trying to drive the dispatcher crazy? heh
00:59:58  <FLHerne> drac_boy: Saves trouble when adding junctions and stuff. Personally I use block ones because they look nicer, but that adds complexity with no proper advantage
01:00:29  <drac_boy> FLHerne heh I actually use standard all the times and keep wondering why openttd refuses to compare to ttdxp when it comes to more than simple Y split junctions >_<
01:00:30  <FLHerne> The entry/exit/combo ones are largely redundant except for specific and unusual cases
01:00:37  <drac_boy> but apparently the coders seem to have no interest in doing it
01:00:59  <drac_boy> ah well
01:01:18  <FLHerne> drac_boy: OTTD-style path signals are very good for most junctions :P
01:01:55  <FLHerne> dot_: Screenshot threads *might* be helpful
01:02:02  <drac_boy> FLHerne try tell the stupid path signal that the short emus are supposed to have piority over the infrequent lengthy goods train
01:02:15  <drac_boy> basically the pbs signals are no better than standard signals -_-
01:02:21  <dot_> I've seen a lot of screenshots but only a couple actually point out which signals they were using
01:02:26  <FLHerne> Although those tend to be more complicated than necessary for aethetic reasons, of course
01:02:41  <drac_boy> dot_ do you not have a game running now or any reason why you can't post a screenshot of what you're trying to do btw?
01:03:03  <FLHerne> dot_: I'd just use monodirectional path signals for everything unless you have a specific need to use something else
01:03:08  <dot_> I could but it wouldn't matter. No case do I understand which signals to use for any kind of design
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01:03:46  <dot_> FLHerne, I want to learn how to not lay 5 times as much track as I need lol
01:04:18  <drac_boy> dot_ care to try dispatch my trains then? heh.  lot of single-track workings :)
01:04:24  <drac_boy> heh heh
01:04:29  <FLHerne> dot_: The wiki does actually have examples for most things...
01:04:39  * FLHerne quickly puts together some things
01:04:48  <dot_> FLHerne, I've seen examples but they're not as well documented for someone who knows nothing about trains
01:05:04  <dot_> I know most of the players are enthusiasts but I'm a casual player trying to learn
01:06:12  <FLHerne> dot_: Turn on 'show reserved tracks' under display options in the advanced settings, try and make sure you have trains going in only one direction on each (long) bit of track, and use only path signals :P
01:06:39  <FLHerne> When you get used to that, find cases where you can use more complicated types of signal or trackplan
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01:08:44  <drac_boy> flherne I'm not blaming you but one of the most stupidest thing I sometimes actually run into with openttd is when all 3 platforms at factory are occupied by goods trains alone .. no platform for the dropoff trains to use .. even waypoints doesn't help because it "ignores" the platform signal occupation anyway
01:09:03  <drac_boy> at least most other time it seem to just about work
01:09:19  <FLHerne> drac_boy: Which is why any sane network builder uses separate stations for that :P
01:09:25  <drac_boy> FLHerne or have real signals ;)
01:09:51  <drac_boy> in ttdxp I have it signalled that if the one goods track isn't free the trains actually wait at the entry signal even if its showing green.  but eh :->
01:09:53  <dot_> reserved tracks are on. Is there a way to make it show further down the line what it's doing?
01:11:23  <dot_> also, if a town is refusing to let you build a station there, how do you make them let you?
01:11:47  <drac_boy> improve town mayor's rating...usually either 1. better services or 2. plant more trees
01:11:57  <FLHerne> dot_: Bribe them, or build them some trees, or give them a good transport service for a while
01:12:22  <FLHerne> Ideally, just don't annyo them (by removing trees or roads or buildings) in the first place :P
01:12:52  <drac_boy> FLHerne and build stations first then rails second .. especially in heavy treed areas :P
01:13:02  <FLHerne> ndeed
01:13:29  <FLHerne>
01:13:44  <FLHerne> Very simple network using only monodirectional path signals :P
01:14:05  <FLHerne> Actually, there's one important error in that
01:14:23  * drac_boy thinks its wrong for my trains ;)
01:14:36  <drac_boy> but then whatever heh
01:14:53  <FLHerne> The first signals after the junction when leaving the station are quite close, so a train longer than two tiles would block the junction when stopped at them
01:15:09  <FLHerne> That could potentially cause a jam, so don't do that :P
01:15:17  <peter1138> dot_, there is nothing going on further down the line, if there was, it'd be reserved
01:16:52  <dot_> down the line as in which path it would take given the signals I've set up
01:16:58  <dot_> it would help me learn WTF I'm doing wrong
01:17:20  <peter1138> nope, because until it gets there no choice has been made
01:18:55  <dot_> it can't calculate which signals are green at a given instant and highlight the path until something else gets in the way?
01:19:06  <FLHerne> Vehicles constantly redecide their path based on various factors. The reserved bit is as far as it'll get before it thinks about it again ;-)
01:19:34  <dot_> even in pause mode, a "where are they going now?" thing would be nice
01:19:35  <FLHerne> If you're trying to debug your network, you could upload a savegame or screenshot so we can see what's wrong?
01:19:44  <dot_> I'm trying to learn
01:19:49  <dot_> current game doesn't matter
01:20:19  <FLHerne> dot_: By pointing out errors in the way you set up this network, you can avoid making the same errors in others :-)
01:20:22  <drac_boy> FLHerne I pretty much asked just ignore it
01:20:26  <dot_> if you want to see a messy design I can show you
01:20:31  <dot_> but I know it's hideous
01:21:11  <dot_>
01:21:23  <dot_> that's the overall build as I went crap
01:21:38  <drac_boy> umm that looks like nothing to me?
01:22:02  <dot_> you mean the image is blank or what?
01:22:12  <drac_boy> where's some actual view? :)
01:22:40  <dot_> can you zoom out further outside the minimap?
01:24:03  <drac_boy> forget the minimap..take a screenshot somewhere in the actual screen view
01:24:16  <dot_> well, this is the messiest part so far:
01:24:45  <FLHerne> dot_: The shape of the network isn't bad, tbh
01:24:50  <drac_boy> looks like you trying to send one train all over the place? 0_o  I think I'll leave you to FLHerne
01:24:54  <dot_> you saw the minimap, my goal now is to get the train running to all towns and resources
01:25:03  <dot_> but I want to add more trains
01:25:11  <FLHerne> The complete lack of signals in the second picture is quite worrying
01:25:24  <drac_boy> FLHerne so is the lack of real forced service too? ;)
01:25:25  <dot_> I want one train to do all the passengers and mail and one to get all the iron, etc.
01:25:30  <dot_> that's why I need signals
01:27:51  <peter1138> basically, stick with path signals
01:28:22  <peter1138> then, only put a path signal where you feel it is safe for a train to stop. safe here means it won't block the path of other trains coming in a different direction.
01:28:42  <dot_> I tried that but when I add one, they lock up waiting for a clear path when nothing is even there
01:28:50  <peter1138> you need more than 1
01:28:57  <dot_> so I'm guessing I put too many, or in the wrong places
01:29:00  <drac_boy> maybe because you didn't add a full path :P
01:29:13  <drac_boy> nothing like eg having a red signal that is in front of track that connects back to itself anyway
01:29:27  <drac_boy> other signals would had ignored that but what am I to say
01:29:39  <peter1138> *have
01:31:51  <FLHerne>
01:32:36  <FLHerne> I quickly drew up a pair of three-way junctions. They both do the same thing, but the big one won't have trains crossing in front of each other :P
01:32:52  <FLHerne> Note that I'm British, so my trains drive on the left ;-)
01:33:03  <michi_cc> peter1138: Re re-randomization, I think you do sometimes need CB 1, see my post.
01:33:40  <FLHerne> I'd just avoid having trains going in both directions on the same track until you've got used to how trains behave
01:34:12  <peter1138> michi_cc, it's not necessary but probably is simpler as otherwise you'd have to duplicate the RA2s
01:34:32  <FLHerne> Where by 'track' I mean 'track', not 'pair of parallel tracks' ;-)
01:35:23  <michi_cc> peter1138: Hmm, yeah, duplicating all RA2 as a dummy into the default chain could work as well.
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01:36:05  <peter1138> michi_cc, for the usual use (with vehicles at least) just putting the RA2s in the normal sprite chain makes sense
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01:36:18  <peter1138> but yeah, kinda different with how stations work
01:36:32  <peter1138> i think my first point is more important there :)
01:37:52  <dot_> so say I have a Y junction, where do I put the signals, at the 3 points?
01:38:05  <dot_> or should there be one in the middle of the split?
01:38:33  <FLHerne> dot_: Quite simply, I would avoid the kind of Y-junctions you have in your screenshot
01:38:39  <michi_cc> RandomActions where probably though up before widespread CB usage, and obviously such a usage is highly uncommon, otherwise somebody would have triggered that desync ages ago.
01:39:32  <FLHerne> It would be very difficult or impossible to signal them in such a way that you could get a reasonable throughput of trains and yet not jam them
01:39:46  <michi_cc> dot_: Nowhere. Single-track Y junctions have no safe point. Just imagine two trains that each want to go to the track the other comes from, there simply isn't any place to wait on each other.
01:39:58  <peter1138> michi_cc, why would it desync?
01:40:20  <peter1138> the random data is only ever changed during a trigger, regardless of whether an RA2 is reached
01:40:31  <michi_cc> peter1138:
01:40:42  <dot_> what if I turned the Y design into a diamond shape? Would that be safe?
01:41:59  <FLHerne> dot_: See the kind of things I posted :P
01:42:15  <FLHerne> Predominantly single-track networks are a nightmare
01:42:26  <michi_cc> dot_: No, because it doesn't change the problem. What you need are either stations with more than one platform at each end or passing loops in each branch. There you have a safe place for trains to pass each other and can place signals.
01:42:29  <drac_boy> FLHerne how come I have lots of them? :P
01:42:40  <dot_> FLHerne, I saw it but it's too much
01:42:51  <FLHerne> They can be done ( I have quite a few), but not like that :P
01:43:25  <FLHerne> drac_boy: Single-track lines with passing loops is fine. Just building a network by drawing single tracks between everything doesn't work :P
01:43:35  <dot_> I think I'll just screw around and crash some trains. I've accumulated 70 mill so meh
01:44:12  <peter1138> oh god, people are using random triggers to set vehicle properties, not just graphic variations... o_O
01:44:41  <Pikka> I know I'm sure not, peter
01:45:18  <peter1138> and i know dbsetxl doesn't, but only cos that predates those other cbs ;)
01:45:24  <drac_boy> what they need is a 'rebuilt specifications' cb ;)
01:45:28  <drac_boy> heh
01:45:46  <Pikka> no it isn't
01:47:06  <peter1138> drac_boy, not really, iirc the spec doesn't really define when you can change specs
01:47:29  <peter1138> it wouldn't be a problem if we didn't cache the result. but then it would be horribly slow.
01:48:15  <drac_boy> mm it could had been nice tho. still seem silly to introduce a locomotive only to use another id to reintroduce it again 20 years later in a repowered form
01:48:37  <michi_cc> dot_: A very basic network, with two trains that each want to go to the other stations:
01:48:44  <peter1138> *have
01:49:03  <drac_boy> good one michi_cc
01:49:17  <drac_boy> looks like the early german highspeed trainset to me? :)
01:49:18  <michi_cc> dot_: There simply isn't any point on the network where one train can safely pass the other, which means you also don't have any safe point to put a signal at.
01:50:04  <peter1138> drac_boy, i never said you can't change the vehicle spec, that is, after all, precisely what CB 36, and the earlier separate ones, are designed for
01:50:42  <Pikka> although, from a design and gameplay point of view, changing a vehicle's stats in any major way is a terrible idea
01:50:57  <Pikka> I do it in av8 but that's because who cares about planes
01:51:01  <Pikka> :)
01:51:09  <peter1138> and in ukrs2!
01:51:16  <Pikka> no I don't
01:51:25  <Pikka> !
01:51:27  <Pikka> lies!
01:51:27  <peter1138> speed limit of wagons based on purchase date
01:51:36  <Pikka> one wagon
01:51:37  <peter1138> or maybe that was in ukrs1
01:51:40  <Pikka> and it was a bad idea
01:51:52  <drac_boy> pikka actually it does make sense.. a 27 years old locomotive thats becoming <40% reliability verus a 0 year old locomotive with 89% reliability?
01:51:57  <Pikka> in the recent updates I split it into two separate vehicles
01:52:12  <peter1138> reliability is not set like that anyway
01:52:39  <peter1138> Pikka, what about your dual-powered engines? )
01:52:40  <drac_boy> peter1138 well it apparently is, especially when you can't buy the original one anymore for that matter
01:53:10  <Pikka> I don't know what he's talking about either
01:53:24  <dot_> lol I've got 2 trains running with minimal waiting on my crazy track
01:53:35  <drac_boy> dot_ heh?
01:53:44  <peter1138> drac_boy, one day you'll have to read that newgrf spec, sorry.
01:53:50  <FLHerne> dot_: At some point, you might well find they get stuck :P
01:53:55  <drac_boy> peter1138 I don't need to reread it btw
01:54:00  <drac_boy> FLHerne maybe :)
01:54:11  <dot_> I think I just placed enough semaphores to make it happen
01:54:16  <peter1138> it's like you've seen bits but don't actually grasp what goes on
01:54:24  <peter1138> which, to be fair, is pretty normal :p
01:54:40  <dot_> nope, stuck
01:54:41  <drac_boy> peter1138 its not complicated to figure out that a locomotive thats past its age and yet can't be bought anymore really is lousy at breaking down a lot period ;)
01:54:57  <peter1138> tip, there's no newgrf property to set reliability as a figure
01:55:08  <FLHerne> dot_: As everyone's told you, that network is all but unsignallable :P
01:55:32  <drac_boy> FLHerne maybe he should invest in super-fast helicopters or even hoverboats..they don't need signals :)
01:55:39  <michi_cc> dot_: There are several ways to create some safe points, for example by giving one station two platforms, or by inserting a passing loop:
01:55:40  <FLHerne> It's all single tracks, so there are no safe waiting points and hence no places to put signals
01:56:20  <dot_> the idea is that usually they're sitting in the station at some point while the other passes
01:56:26  <dot_> but I'm working on it
01:56:48  <FLHerne> dot_: That isn't a reliable way to do it :P
01:57:15  <dot_> I just wanted to see what semaphores would do with my current track
01:57:33  <michi_cc> dot_: The station has to use the two-way path signal, as trains must be able to pass it from the side without the lights as well. I could've used those also for the passing loop, but the one-way path signals is better here as it prevents unintentional "queue-jumping", where a train behind overtakes a train in front.
01:59:06  <peter1138> btw, michi_cc created our path signals, so he'll know ;D
02:00:24  <michi_cc> dot_: If you are absolutely sure a branch is only ever visited by a single train, putting a two-way path signal directly before the junction (with the lights away from the function) will work, but you must remember to upgrade that area if you ever want to send a second train down the same branch.
02:02:50  <michi_cc> Like Train 3 which I added in
02:03:17  <michi_cc> BTW, who's going creates/updates a wiki article with this stuff (nope, not me)?
02:03:41  <FLHerne> michi_cc: There already is, right? :P
02:03:58  <michi_cc> I don't think it has such nice pictures ;)
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03:55:23  <dot_> so let's say I have a giant loop of everything. All one direction. Which signal is best to make sure the trains don't hit eachother and where do I place them, behind the stations?
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04:34:06  <dot_> I went with 1 way path signals. Now I'm getting so much loaded that they're backing up and want to use an inner track I built to speed the process along. How would you suggest I make them cross over at need? X shape with signals before crossings or what?
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07:13:58  <Pinkbeast> dot_: I don't know if you're still there, but all signals are equally good at making trains not hit each other. Trains will never collide unless you delete a signal that a train is approaching or order a train to pass a signal at danger.
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08:23:17  <V453000> @seen frosch123
08:23:17  <DorpsGek> V453000: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 9 hours, 16 minutes, and 27 seconds ago: <frosch123> night
08:23:20  <V453000> :(
08:24:02  <bolli> Withdrawal symptoms coming on? :P
08:34:33  <dihedral> good morning and a happy new year
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08:53:02  <planetmaker> good morning
08:53:10  <planetmaker> and happy new year to all :-)
08:55:12  <dihedral> \o/ a pm in 2013 :-D
08:55:46  <peter1138> but is it a pm from planetmaker?
08:57:05  <planetmaker> and a dih in 2013 as well :-)
09:01:15  <dihedral> where? where? :-P
09:01:38  <planetmaker> under the couch! ;-)
09:06:37  * dihedral looks
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09:13:30  <bolli> Why is work so tedious after a long break? :(
09:14:24  <dihedral> oh - it's boring this end
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09:26:24  <peter1138> hi
09:30:31  <peter1138> i'll tell you waht
09:30:35  <peter1138> [5~3 hours sleep isn't enough
09:30:38  <peter1138> er
09:30:40  <peter1138> 3 hours
09:36:12  <peter1138> so anyone want to implement station triggers? :p
09:36:15  <peter1138> shouldn't be too hard
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09:56:32  <Wolf01> moin
10:02:07  *** Flygon__ is now known as Flygon
10:02:39  <Flygon> Menta
10:08:50  <dot_> why do resources keep disappearing?
10:09:16  <dot_> It shows that oil has been produced or anything and then shortly after they go to 0
10:09:35  <MINM> I assume the month would be over
10:09:55  <dot_> they disappear after a month?
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10:15:13  <planetmaker> dot_, your station rating is < 50%
10:15:42  <planetmaker> then cargo waiting at your station will disappear
10:15:51  <planetmaker> slowly. faster the worse the rating
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10:23:34  <Terkhen> good morning
10:25:08  <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
10:37:47  <FLHerne> Morning
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12:39:05  <drac_boy> hi
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14:06:34  <Flygon> Heya drac_boy
14:07:47  <__ln__> @seen Supercheese
14:07:47  <DorpsGek> __ln__: Supercheese was last seen in #openttd 5 days, 3 hours, 42 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <Supercheese> I could do that... most any time
14:08:11  <drac_boy> how're you flygon?
14:08:27  <Flygon> I'm quite well
14:08:28  <Flygon> You?
14:08:32  <drac_boy> doing ok for now
14:08:49  <Flygon> Ok? Ok is good. :)
14:08:54  <drac_boy> :p
14:09:35  <Superuser> btw on new year's day I became #1 in like 5 years in a game, from £1 to some £220k, and that's despite hitting the vehicle limit (had 2 major competitors, 1 minor)
14:09:50  <Flygon> ...
14:10:18  <Superuser> another guy still had higher company value at £450k or so but I still beat him overall (top guy was a person who had about £170k at the start)
14:10:22  <Superuser> but damn I was proud
14:10:28  <Superuser> errone mad cos root is the best player
14:10:35  <Superuser> in the universe
14:12:14  <Flygon> Apperantly the solution to locomotive upgrades is to just add more letters to class allocations @_@
14:15:52  <Superuser> I think 'search term' or instead of 'search string' is much more user-friendly
14:15:56  <Superuser> what do you chaps think?#
14:16:14  <Superuser> Do note that most people that play OpenTTD have never written a line of code in their life.
14:17:30  <Flygon> I'm not most people
14:17:40  <Flygon> I'm the 1%
14:17:49  <Superuser> so many americans ITC
14:18:00  <Flygon> I'm Australian
14:18:08  <Superuser> I shouldn't even know that movement of idiot liberals is going in the USA
14:18:14  <Superuser> media genocide best day of my life
14:18:30  <Flygon> Sick of fiscal cliff media coverage too?
14:20:06  <Superuser> I see what you did there
14:20:43  <Flygon> Not really
14:20:47  <Flygon> Here, we have Idiot Liberals
14:20:57  <Flygon> Right wing idiot bigots, the lot of them
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15:17:17  <drac_boy> what could aluminium be used for other than to produce goods...
15:17:21  <peter1138> bigotted liberals? that's kinda weird
15:18:26  <peter1138> use aluminium to produce aircraft to transport aluminium
15:18:50  <SpComb> aircraft factory!
15:19:08  <SpComb> train factory, wood wagon factory
15:19:10  <SpComb> step 1: punch trees
15:19:58  <peter1138> minettd?
15:20:14  * MINM chuckles
15:21:39  <drac_boy> aircraft factory could be interesting, would have to be of the small single-prop kind if its going to fit onto trains as an output cargo tho
15:21:48  <peter1138> . /gamemode 2 SpComb
15:28:13  <peter1138>
15:28:18  <peter1138> yeah, i need that
15:31:20  <peter1138> that would've been a few grand when new
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15:48:44  <V453000> hm what does fluctuating economy exactly do except If the economy isn't set to steady, it may go into a recession, which causes a number of points to change. ... nothing? Just one every -time-, stuff drops?
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15:56:49  <Eddi|zuHause> allegedly, yes
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16:40:47  <drac_boy> mm just asking but any of you know how common electric locomotives with 2-body 3-trucks configuration were? russia and italy had some classic ones
16:40:58  <drac_boy> ones afaik*
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16:45:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure, but switzerland might have had some as well
16:46:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a fairly common model for DMU/EMU, but engines with that design are rather rare
16:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. the "Flying Hamburger" had a configuration like that
16:47:33  <Eddi|zuHause> the TGV would have that as well, if you leave out the middle wagons :)
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16:48:44  <drac_boy> heh heh
16:51:10  <drac_boy> I always did wonder about that name eddi.. 'flying hamburger'?
16:51:20  <drac_boy> might be it means something different in translation
16:52:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it may have been a play on "flying dutchman"
16:53:04  <Eddi|zuHause> just exchange "dutch" for "hamburg"
16:54:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it was basically the name for the prototype of the "Hamburg" type of express diesel railcar, there was also a "Cologne" type, a "Leipzig" type and a "Berlin" type
16:54:44  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes called "the flying trains" network
16:54:49  <drac_boy> hamburg makes a lot more sense
16:54:58  <Rubidium> and the hamburg one just separated?
16:55:52  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: obviously a "hamburger" is a person from hamburg
16:56:16  <Eddi|zuHause> like a "new yorker" is a person from new york
16:56:30  <Rubidium> or a newborn yorker ;)
16:56:31  <drac_boy> yeah...I guess there are some words thats strange in english
16:56:40  <drac_boy> because...who want an actual hamburger on rails? :P
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17:10:39  * drac_boy is going to have some lunch now
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17:25:56  <peter1138> good news everyone
17:26:27  <Sacro> you made the change?
17:31:07  <peter1138> yes
17:31:20  <peter1138> you didn't notice because it was a success
17:31:27  <peter1138> apart from the bit where sacro is now a man
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17:51:11  <Sacro> lo, behold my mighty todger
17:52:13  <|Jeroen|> please keep your todger or whatever in your pants :-)
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18:46:33  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24880 /trunk/src/lang (13 files in 2 dirs) (2013-01-02 18:46:14 UTC)
18:46:34  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:35  <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 25 changes by xiangyigao
18:46:36  <DorpsGek> czech - 3 changes by micropro_cz
18:46:37  <DorpsGek> estonian - 238 changes by notAbot
18:46:38  <DorpsGek> greek - 93 changes by Evropi
18:46:39  <DorpsGek> icelandic - 118 changes by Stimrol
18:46:40  <DorpsGek> indonesian - 131 changes by H2, Yoursnotmine, fanioz
18:46:41  <DorpsGek> italian - 5 changes by Snail_
18:46:42  <DorpsGek> latvian - 11 changes by Parastais
18:46:43  <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 19 changes by Stabilitronas
18:46:44  <DorpsGek> portuguese - 78 changes by Lux, fspinto, neuralshock
18:46:45  <DorpsGek> romanian - 4 changes by mariush
18:46:46  <DorpsGek> slovak - 104 changes by Romop5, Tinix
18:46:47  <DorpsGek> tamil - 1 changes by aswn
18:49:19  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24881 trunk/src/lang/slovak.txt (2013-01-02 18:49:14 UTC)
18:49:20  <DorpsGek> -Fix: compilation error in language file
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19:21:20  <Alberth> hello
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19:32:08  <Alberth> o/
19:32:44  <andythenorth> o-
19:32:45  <andythenorth> o/
19:32:47  <andythenorth> o-
19:34:41  <Alberth> doing stretch exercises? :)
19:36:14  <andythenorth> :)
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19:40:54  <Alberth> hi frosch
19:41:09  <frosch123> hai albert :)
19:41:15  <frosch123> happy new year!
19:42:24  <Alberth> good point :)
19:42:54  <Alberth> a good 2013 to you too (and to andy, and everybody else tuned in, at this channel of course)
19:43:36  <andythenorth> frosch123! :)
19:43:53  <andythenorth> would you like some SV results for your high score table?
19:43:57  <andythenorth> and could we automate that?
19:44:15  <frosch123> the high score table is only for nocargoal currently :p
19:44:31  <frosch123> automate would require some server and some admin bot :p
19:44:32  <andythenorth> erp
19:44:49  <andythenorth> how about just a forum thread? :P
19:44:52  <andythenorth> simples
19:45:22  <frosch123> a forum thread for something that changes continually`
19:45:27  <andythenorth> hmm
19:45:33  <frosch123> i think the wiki is still better for that :p
19:45:38  <andythenorth> maybe
19:45:42  <andythenorth> I hate wiki editing :P
19:46:02  <frosch123> also: i have to power to ban all douchebags from the wiki, while i cannot from the forums :p
19:46:23  <frosch123> andythenorth: but you also hate reading the forums
19:46:24  <andythenorth> he
19:46:27  <andythenorth> no
19:46:30  <andythenorth> I love reading the forums
19:46:31  <frosch123> (ok, technically for posting you do not have to read)
19:46:34  <andythenorth> gives me something to complain about
19:46:37  <frosch123> (and most apparently also don't)
19:48:27  <Alberth> in some forums, reading is not even required to stay on-topic :p
19:49:52  <andythenorth> anyway
19:49:53  <andythenorth>
19:50:02  <andythenorth> MP game including alberth and pikka ^
19:50:14  <andythenorth> 7 years
19:50:18  <andythenorth> lost :P
19:54:26  <andythenorth>
19:54:40  <andythenorth> SP, 75 years ^
19:54:50  <andythenorth>
19:55:10  <frosch123> :o
19:55:39  <andythenorth> couldn't build source industries fast enough, got to about 12m litres quite fast, then couldn't easily stay above that
19:55:45  <frosch123> maybe that raises the interest of V453000 for goal games though :p
19:55:46  <andythenorth> was quite fun, but 75 years is too long
19:55:53  <andythenorth> 50 years would be about right
19:56:11  <andythenorth> our 7 year games are fun, but there is no progression of technology
19:56:26  <andythenorth> so a lot of the fun of vehicles sets is missed out
19:57:24  <frosch123> you mean you need a inverse daylength patch which gives new vehicles faster? :p
19:57:28  <V453000> idk about that :)
19:59:07  <andythenorth> we need to decouple dates :P
19:59:11  <andythenorth> from ticks
19:59:17  <andythenorth> or at least use a multiplier
19:59:24  <frosch123> time machine industry!
19:59:38  <frosch123> deliver cargo to make time run faster
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20:03:57  <Alberth> and stop time when not delivering? hmm, that sounds like a zeno starvation problem :p
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20:06:26  <planetmaker> hey ho frosch123 :-)
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20:07:19  <andythenorth> herp
20:07:36  <andythenorth> zeno: year 1 philosophy; pretty much the only good thing about year 1
20:09:51  <Alberth> hey ho planetmaker
20:10:08  <andythenorth> Alberth: so you learn by grep too? :P
20:10:22  <Alberth> 'ack', but yeah :)
20:10:42  <andythenorth> it's my standard practice now, find a gui string and work back
20:10:52  <andythenorth> I actually use my editor's seach, but same difference :P
20:11:08  <andythenorth> doesn't always work
20:11:17  <andythenorth> especially for stuff with no obvious string
20:11:28  <Alberth> even in FreeRCT I use this technique, and I wrote all that code :p
20:11:29  <andythenorth> but then something like a newgrf cb number can be useful
20:11:37  <andythenorth> I use it on code I wrote all the time
20:11:44  <andythenorth> 'knowing' a code base is a silly idea
20:11:55  <andythenorth> 'knowing' the architecture...yes
20:12:10  <andythenorth> distrust people who can remember functions in detail :P
20:12:26  <andythenorth> they've filled up some part of their brain, which disadvantages them in other tasks
20:12:32  <Alberth> oh, and auto-completion of the editor of course, which understands #include  :)
20:12:58  <andythenorth> hrm, this is good
20:13:42  * Rubidium can remember at least three functions in detail ;)
20:14:02  <Rubidium> hello abs, min and max! ;)
20:14:14  <Alberth> :D
20:14:24  <Alberth> and SB and GB :)
20:14:46  <Rubidium> that requires thinking
20:15:03  <Rubidium> oh, Vehicle::First(), Vehicle::Next() are relatively easy as well
20:15:08  <Alberth> yeah, the parameter order is difficult, I agree
20:15:44  <Alberth> quite predictably in their function too
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20:16:50  <peter1138> andythenorth, nice
20:17:02  <peter1138> steers by turning the 5th wheel? heh
20:18:07  <andythenorth> tempted to build one
20:18:11  <andythenorth> don't have a micromotor :P
20:19:03  <andythenorth> hmm
20:19:15  * andythenorth considers linear actuator for steering
20:20:02  <andythenorth> £14 for a micromotor :P
20:20:35  * andythenorth -> pub
20:20:37  <andythenorth> bye for today :P
20:20:47  <Rubidium> tss...
20:21:57  <Rubidium> just ask Grace Hopper for about 3 femtoseconds ;)
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20:35:12  <peter1138> so do i have to look at station triggers again? :-(
20:37:59  <Rubidium> we'll won't force you, but feel very free to have a look at them
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20:47:10  <drac_boy> hi
20:48:02  <Alberth> hi
20:48:45  <drac_boy> how doing Alberth?
20:49:21  <Alberth> I am trying to decipher your message :p
20:49:28  <drac_boy> heh heh
20:49:50  <Alberth> but for the first day at work again, not too bad
20:50:05  <Alberth> except this morning was much too early :(
20:52:01  <drac_boy> :)
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20:59:14  <Rubidium> see... how unreliable is this Fyra? Now it ended up in France... ;)
21:00:34  <drac_boy> Fyra .. the trainset right?
21:00:45  <Rubidium> yes
21:01:29  <Rubidium> I also wonder how someone dares to call AnsaldoBreda trains "good"
21:02:25  <Fira> o_O
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21:04:08  <Rubidium> in Denmark they drove fairly frequently through red signals without even attempting to break, or coming to a stop after the signal. They even removed *all* AnsaldoBreda trains out of service for almost a year
21:04:19  <frosch123> peter1138: is there a testgrf meanwhile?
21:04:58  <Pikka> peter1138 made a grf? :D
21:05:08  <drac_boy> ansaldobreda...the same one that was so far behind on building trainsets and even then they had to be somewhat rebuilt by another company due to quality problems on DB's lines?
21:05:20  <drac_boy> I remember reading a bit about it early on but then never heard anymore
21:06:08  <Rubidium> oh, they were only 4 years late with the first vehicle in Denmark
21:06:40  <Rubidium> the Fyra was only 5 years late
21:06:46  <drac_boy> mm
21:06:49  <peter1138> well there's newstats...
21:06:59  <michi_cc> frosch123: According to mb current NewStations uses them.
21:07:10  <peter1138> old newstats uses them
21:07:19  <frosch123> does it?
21:07:26  <Rubidium> and when they were taken into service the trains failed to boot so often that trains more often did not reach the destination than reaching their destination
21:07:28  <frosch123> i thought i checked all station grfs two years ago
21:07:33  <frosch123> and noone used random triggers
21:07:39  <frosch123> everyone only does animation trigger
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21:07:43  <Rubidium> frosch123: but... newstat is *new*
21:07:52  <Rubidium> like a few weeks/days
21:08:38  <drac_boy> rubidium reminds me of a certain australia emu running on windows NT for its status/doors/PA system .. and it was BSOD a lot of the times
21:08:40  <bolli> That sounds like VT after Operation Princess Rubidium?
21:09:01  <drac_boy> say I should ask flygon if he knew any more about that sort of thing
21:10:10  <peter1138> frosch123, it has randomaction2s in it
21:10:14  <bolli> drac, most trains in the UK run windows 3.1...
21:10:37  <bolli> Infact, a lot of things like cash machines and ticket machines do aswell
21:10:42  <drac_boy> 0_o
21:11:07  <bolli> They don't need anything fancy, and are less prone to crashes etc
21:12:05  <peter1138> grep -c " 02 04 .. 8[034] " newstatsw.nfo
21:12:10  <peter1138> 198
21:12:51  <frosch123> well, does it also set any triggers?
21:12:52  <peter1138> only 145 in the new version
21:13:17  <frosch123> i think build-time randomisation is also used by other sets
21:13:30  <frosch123> but i am not aware of any rerandomisation
21:13:43  <peter1138> no such thing
21:13:53  <Wolf01> if somebody missed it, there is some time left
21:13:56  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: i have seen ATMs running windows NT
21:13:57  <frosch123> (most likely because randomising the station bits makes no sense, and there are only 4? tile bits)
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21:14:31  <Eddi|zuHause> and ticket machines in public transport running windows XP
21:16:20  <FLHerne> The simulator for the bell tower here runs Win95...
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21:17:41  <Rubidium> frosch123: isn't it to get a different pattern of cargo or something?
21:17:44  <peter1138> frosch123, yeah, newstats sets property 12
21:17:56  <peter1138> 4 bits is enough for graphical variation
21:18:20  <peter1138> as does ISR, in fact
21:21:30  <frosch123> <- peter1138: i meant whether there is any ra2 setting one of those bits
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21:47:01  <peter1138> oh them
21:48:00  <peter1138> then yes
21:48:24  <peter1138> newstats sets bits 2 or 4
21:49:14  <drac_boy> would a part-train/part-hotel building still have been called a terminal or was there another generic name for them?
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21:51:52  <Eddi|zuHause> what
21:51:57  <Eddi|zuHause> 's a "terminal"?
21:52:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i've only ever seen that name in railroad tycoon...
21:52:32  <Eddi|zuHause> (in context of trains)
21:54:15  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Might be a terminus, might just be a station (as with air/shipping terminal)?
21:54:30  <drac_boy> I guess theres that too
21:54:51  <FLHerne> I seem to remember a 'Grand Central Terminal' existing in the US somewhere?
21:54:55  <peter1138> well a terminus is just a station at the end of the line
21:58:00  <drac_boy> FLHerne there were 'grand...' and 'union...' in a lot of northeast cities
21:58:17  <drac_boy> cleveland union terminal ... grand central terminal .. etc etc
21:58:29  <FLHerne> drac_boy: It was the 'terminal' bit I was thinking about :P
21:58:32  <drac_boy> np :)
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22:20:12  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24882 /trunk/src (economy.cpp vehicle.cpp) (2013-01-02 22:20:07 UTC)
22:20:13  <DorpsGek> -Fix: desync when NewGRF changes the stats related to acceleration (power, weight, tractive effort, etc) during service or 32 day triggers
22:21:25  <peter1138> ban randomisation :S
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22:23:31  <Eddi|zuHause> so... apparently i'm an uncle now...
22:23:51  <Zuu> FLHerne: Do you have a savegame with Neighbours are Important that cause oscillation? (or do anyone else have a such savegame?)
22:24:10  <FLHerne> Zuu: Oscillation?
22:25:12  <Zuu> In principel it is easy. Grow 3 cities really large. At some point growth goals will start to oscillate.
22:25:25  <Zuu> The problem is that it takes a while to get there.
22:26:56  <Zuu> Some users reported this, and I have a fix ready but no test case to see if the fix solves their problem. The fix will cause all existing games to change behaviour, so its a good idea to have at least one test case to verify before releasing it.
22:28:08  <Zuu> The next version will contain a setting to revert to the old behaviour and a notice when you load it with the new GS version about this. Still, it will help to get it right from start rather than having to deal with a second model change and a second upgrade notice.
22:30:24  <FLHerne> I don't like huge cities, so no :P
22:30:46  <Zuu> Since I know you played NaI, I though I could ask if you have a such save game. But if you don't, don't take this as a request to create one. I'll have to wait for someone to provide one.
22:31:06  <Zuu> Its after all their problem :-)
22:31:28  <Zuu> I never grew a town that large that it start to oscillate.
22:31:48  <Zuu> s/a town/three towns/
22:32:33  <Zuu> (I don't know if it is enough with 2 or if you need 3 for it to start oscillate. In theory I think it should be enough with 2, but the bug reports I got state 3 towns)
23:00:35  <Wolf01> 'night
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