Log for #openttd on 5th January 2013:
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00:04:44  *** Snail [] has joined #openttd
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00:11:49  <Pikka> well
00:11:52  <Pikka> shamefur dispray
00:13:02  <drac_boy> hi snail the french engineer :)
00:13:13  <Snail> good evening :)
00:13:13  <drac_boy> or do they call it 'driver'? I never remember :P
00:13:33  <Snail> driver? I don't even own a car :p
00:16:02  <drac_boy> no I mean in some places its called 'driver' instead of 'engineer'
00:16:13  <drac_boy> I always forget which one is which place
00:16:16  <Snail> really?
00:16:20  <Snail> never heard of that
00:18:02  <drac_boy> how're you anyway?
00:18:10  <Kitty> what things make a town grow ?
00:18:20  <Snail> I'm fine
00:18:23  <Kitty> and can I make a town grow faster by providing transport to it ?
00:18:30  <Snail> finally it's the weekend :)
00:18:30  <Snail> a
00:18:30  <Snail> nd
00:18:31  <Snail>  y
00:18:31  <Snail> ou
00:18:41  <Snail> and you? (sorry, strange computer behavior)
00:21:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Kitty: yes.
00:21:33  <drac_boy> doing ok, had a bit big supper for myself tho :)
00:21:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Kitty: any transport will do, doesn't have to be a particular cargo
00:22:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Kitty: unless you're in desert or snow
00:22:35  <FLHerne> Towns grow faster if they have more than 5 stations, don't they?
00:22:44  <Pikka> no
00:22:45  * FLHerne finds that one quite annoying
00:22:50  <glx> a passenger network inside the town is good
00:22:51  <Pikka> they grow faster for each station up to 5
00:23:05  <FLHerne> Pikka: That sounds much saner :-)
00:25:47  * FLHerne should probably shut up and sleep now
00:29:09  <Kitty> aah
00:29:12  <Kitty> I have 2 stations
00:29:49  <Kitty> well, 5, but 4 of them are one station conceptually
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00:37:02  <drac_boy> what doing now anyway snail?
00:39:08  * peter1138 grumbles at special cases
00:41:17  <Snail> another NG railcar... this one is a modern one
00:41:41  <drac_boy> nice :p
00:46:13  <Kitty> narrow gauge? Am guessing this isn't in openttd ?
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00:51:02  <Snail> yes narrow gauge is in openttd :p
00:51:16  <Snail> I'm actually building a set of all trains like that
00:51:40  <drac_boy> snail funny is me
00:51:44  <drac_boy> I don't call it narrow tho
00:51:48  <drac_boy> :)
00:52:33  <Snail> guys, has any work done to make it possible to flip articulated trains?
00:52:57  <Snail> some of my MUs are coded as articulated vehicles, so that they can carry both pax and mail
00:53:14  <Snail> but they visually look like a one-piece unit (the 2nd part is coded as invisible)
00:53:25  <Snail> so it would be nice if the graphics could still flip...
00:53:39  <drac_boy> good question...I could use the same answer too
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00:54:17  <drac_boy> espcially since I actually need to keep some part-cargo/part-passenger emus
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00:55:21  <Snail> right, and some of my MUs are asymmetrical, can do push-pull (i.e. travel in reverse) but they can't flip in depots. So players might think this is weird
00:56:25  <Pikka> snail: I have never encountered a situation where the player flipping vehicles manually is desirable :)
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00:56:46  <Pikka> personally, I just make it so they can't flip anything
00:57:44  <planetmaker> :-)
00:58:02  <planetmaker> +1 @ pikka
00:58:37  <Snail> :p
00:59:11  <Snail> why? there are some asymmetrical MUs that could run on both directions, and players might want to flip them just to give them a different look
00:59:30  <Snail> or tank steamers that could run cab-forward...
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00:59:53  <Pikka> do it in the grf, then
01:00:01  <V453000> or GEC91 from UKRS which is terribly broken by Shunting due to not being able to flip
01:00:13  <drac_boy> heh snail....did I tell you that paris for some time had tank hauled commuter trains...and the engines always went in both directions equally a lot
01:00:18  <drac_boy> ;)
01:00:49  <drac_boy> anyway I'm going for a bit...have fun talking with others snail :p
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01:01:11  <Pikka> the tank engines in UKRS2 run tender first, but I flip them in the grf rather than relying on the player knowing that flipping this loco might be fun
01:01:24  <planetmaker> he :D
01:01:40  <peter1138> i blame bjarni
01:01:46  <Pikka> (I also decided in UKRS2 that fake-articulates to carry multiple cargos is a bad idea, but each to their own ;))
01:01:47  <Snail> Pikka: yes I already do that in the grf (meaning that they just drive in reverse when they hit the end of the track)
01:02:11  <Snail> but the players might still want to add more randomness themselves
01:02:17  <Snail> Pikka
01:02:17  <Snail> ;
01:02:18  <Pikka> I blame peter1138
01:02:23  <V453000> are you aware that GEC91 runs reversed if it doesnt have a) reversed counterpart on the train end, b) express wagons, or c) network without terminus stations ?
01:02:30  <Snail> Pikka: why that? I thought there were some mixed pax/mail coaches in the UK
01:02:37  <Pikka> are you talking about UKRS1, V453000?
01:02:42  <V453000> of course
01:02:57  <V453000> would have said 2 otherwise :>
01:03:12  <Pikka> then I may or may not be aware of that, but I don't care.
01:03:24  <peter1138> old & unsupported innit
01:03:26  <V453000> well thats not too nice :(
01:03:35  <Supercheese> No love for subways-as-roadtypes  :(
01:03:45  <peter1138> none at all
01:03:50  <peter1138> don't even think about it
01:03:50  <Supercheese> sad panda
01:03:55  <V453000> either way, I solve it all the way that I have automatic reversing at end of consist, but the player is able to flip any train as he likes
01:04:22  <Pikka> it's only a graphical thing anyway V453000, and not even an "error" as such
01:04:37  <V453000> no but for GEC91 it is like majorly graphical thing
01:05:09  <peter1138> fix it yourself?
01:05:22  <planetmaker> Supercheese, they don't need special treatment as road or rail type. They only need a different map array
01:05:38  <Supercheese> "only"
01:05:38  <planetmaker> and different gui to access that :D
01:05:45  <planetmaker> yes. "only" ;-)
01:06:02  <V453000> since when is UKRS under open license peter1138 ?
01:06:20  <Supercheese> Long-term certainly, I was thinking more of an improved interim implementation, but I definitely understand the disagreement
01:06:59  <Supercheese> and I coded a hac- I mean, grf that works well enough for my playstyle :P
01:07:19  <V453000> also, when I use UKRS, I flip one GEC91 in old revision - you can clone it afterwards ... so the issue doesnt exactly touch me
01:07:50  <peter1138> what is the problem anyway?
01:08:03  <V453000> clearly directional train facing the wrong end?
01:08:13  <peter1138> slab-first?
01:08:16  <V453000> yes
01:08:19  <peter1138> for pax?
01:08:23  <V453000> I guess slab means the rear of the train
01:08:24  <Pikka> you do know it has a cab in both ends, right V453000?
01:08:37  <peter1138> or for freight?
01:08:40  <V453000> for freight
01:08:43  <peter1138> ok
01:08:46  <peter1138> you do know
01:08:53  <peter1138> that that is how they were designed to run
01:08:56  <V453000> even if there is cab in the rear, it looks beyond ugly
01:09:13  <V453000> sure, then they should honestly have attach restrictions to pax only
01:09:22  <peter1138> it's not pax only
01:09:52  <V453000> but as ukrs has only 2 other 200+kmh freight trains, while the GEC91 is clearly best, it tends to be an issue
01:10:08  <Pikka> maybe you should consider UKRS2? :)
01:10:44  <V453000> that is nice but UKRS is still better in some aspects and has its magic still
01:11:36  <peter1138> UKRS has nice features
01:11:44  <V453000> I use nuts 99% of my games so I dont care much, but if you want any suggestion, fixing GEC91 would be great ;)
01:11:46  <peter1138> like making the class 91 run slab-end first with freight
01:11:58  <V453000> yes that is an amazing feature peter
01:12:07  <peter1138> seriously, it's mean to do that
01:12:07  <V453000> totally not ugly
01:12:17  <Pikka>
01:12:33  <V453000> how is a real train related to the game? :d
01:12:50  <peter1138> well it's a class 91 for a start
01:12:52  <peter1138> that's pretty related
01:12:54  <Pikka> btw, in UKRS2 the 91 is limited to passenger trains or freightliners only.  flips with freightliners, not with passenger trains :)
01:12:56  <V453000> no thats not
01:13:26  <peter1138> how is a in-game representation of a real engine related to a real engine? well now
01:13:57  <Eddi|zuHause> how is a computer game related to a real world game?
01:13:59  <V453000> well I think this is getting to a point of really strange realism :) but whatever
01:14:06  <peter1138> it's ukrs
01:14:27  <peter1138> maybe you want NUTS
01:14:34  <Pikka> NURKS!
01:14:42  <peter1138> norks!
01:14:48  <Pikka> I knew you were going to say that
01:15:03  <Eddi|zuHause> what's that?
01:15:16  <peter1138> Top speed	Design: 140 mph (225 km/h)
01:15:16  <peter1138> Service: 125 mph (201 km/h)
01:15:16  <peter1138> Blunt-end first: 110 mph (177 km/h)
01:15:23  <peter1138> see, it's even in the real specs
01:15:27  <peter1138> blunt end, not slab
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01:16:04  <peter1138> so yeah, don't fix what isn't broken eh
01:16:13  <V453000> yeah it should even reduce speed when reversed :D
01:16:17  <V453000> realism ftw
01:16:20  <Eddi|zuHause> is that because of the higher wind resistance?
01:16:21  <V453000> good night, this leads nowhere
01:16:23  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yes
01:16:39  <Eddi|zuHause> still, what's a norks?
01:16:45  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, norks
01:16:52  <Pikka> funbags
01:16:58  <Pikka> bazongas
01:17:01  <peter1138> melons
01:17:13  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, these
01:17:34  <Eddi|zuHause> they somehow don't teach us this stuff in school...
01:18:02  <Wolf01> 'night
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01:18:09  <Pikka> V453000, in UKRS2 the 91 even defaults to pointy-end-first on freight, so if you have no terminuses you won't see it run backwards
01:18:29  <peter1138> terminuseseseseseseses
01:18:34  <Pikka> yes
01:18:35  <Pikka> those
01:18:41  <peter1138> terminators
01:18:50  <Eddi|zuHause> terminÃŒsse...
01:18:53  <Supercheese> Termini
01:18:56  <Eddi|zuHause> those should be in NUTS :p
01:18:56  <Pikka> termites
01:19:00  <Supercheese> Hmm, where's the accent key...
01:19:01  <peter1138> Pikka, it doesn't matter, you can't argue with V453000
01:19:09  <Pikka> yes I can!
01:19:12  <Supercheese> Errr, macron rather
01:19:24  <peter1138> i mean, it's your set, and you deliberately made it do that, and everything
01:19:29  <peter1138> but no, it's obviously broken
01:19:49  <Eddi|zuHause> (with "NÃŒsse" being the german term for "nuts" [as in the things that squirrels collect])
01:19:56  <peter1138> arguing with V453000 results in a "i'm right stfu" from him :p
01:20:10  <peter1138> (paraphrased)
01:20:49  <Eddi|zuHause> he should have named his set after Belugas :p
01:20:51  <peter1138> anyone coded a roadtype yet?
01:20:59  <Pikka> just the one?
01:21:06  <peter1138> roadtype set then
01:21:15  <Pikka> no, because there's no spec
01:21:32  <peter1138> make it up
01:21:34  <peter1138> make up a spec
01:21:38  <peter1138> sneak it into the wiki
01:21:39  <Pikka> I already did!
01:21:43  <Eddi|zuHause> plenty of tram replacement sets out there, just add a roadlabel :)
01:21:51  <peter1138> then ask us why it's not implemented yet
01:21:58  <Pikka> I already did!
01:22:10  <peter1138> (and if you're mb make sure it won't work anyway)
01:22:24  <Pikka> I thought that's what we've been talking about for the last however many hours :)
01:22:40  <peter1138> what randomaction2s?
01:22:59  <Pikka> nein
01:23:19  <Pikka> why isn't this implemented yet?
01:23:33  <peter1138> it's not on the newgrf-specs wiki!
01:23:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it really doesn't say anything in the specs about triggers being only triggered if in the default chain (or CB1, which allegedly doesn't even exist)
01:24:11  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: it's not on MB's private fork of the newgrf specs wiki?
01:24:21  <peter1138> the specs also don't say that CB14 (and every other possible callback) will be executed during a trigger
01:24:36  <peter1138> actually it doesn't mention that triggers are "executed" at all
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01:24:55  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: the specs don't say anything about anything needing to be executed for a trigger
01:25:09  <peter1138> stands to reason though
01:25:23  <peter1138> "new cargo waiting" is clearly an event
01:25:30  <peter1138> "train arrives"...
01:26:11  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: make a BFS or DFS on the chains, ignoring all the conditions?
01:26:30  <peter1138> so that you can't do conditional rerandomisation? sure
01:27:01  <Eddi|zuHause> or is there something like computed varaction2 target? :)
01:27:13  <peter1138> there is actually
01:27:48  <Eddi|zuHause> how?
01:28:16  <peter1138> oh, varaction2 target, no, don't think so
01:28:50  <peter1138> that's procedures, but they're linked at load time
01:29:19  <Eddi|zuHause> btw, the object randomisation synchronisation thing, could that be done by implementing randomaction2 type 84 for <whatever>tiles, taking a two-dimensional parameter?
01:29:49  <peter1138> it's called for each tile
01:30:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. randomaction2 type 84 for vehicles accesses randombits of other vehicles in the chain
01:30:51  <Eddi|zuHause> so randomaction2 type 84 for *tiles could possibly access randombits of other nearby tiles
01:32:56  <peter1138> sounds awkward
01:33:09  <peter1138> you'd need massive chains to do anything
01:33:48  <Eddi|zuHause> you can pass the value in register 0x100 if you need to compute the coordinates
01:34:05  <Pikka> massive chains are awesome, peter1138!
01:34:44  <peter1138> you're probably just better off accessing the station's random bits
01:35:09  <peter1138> of course, no guarantee they something else didn't randomise them
01:36:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure what the actual problem was
01:36:18  <Eddi|zuHause> so forget i said anything
01:36:23  <peter1138> ok
01:38:08  <peter1138> 4 bits is a bit feeble
01:38:30  <peter1138> but... 16 random variations ought to be plenty...
01:40:09  <Pikka> in my experience, the problem with a small number of random bits tends to be when you want to have independent random chains
01:40:56  <Pikka> eg, if you want to have a randomised version of a house/vehicle/whatever, and then on top of that you want a random colour, etc
01:41:21  <Pikka> one runs out of bits very quickly doing that :)
01:41:58  <peter1138> vehicles shuld be ok
01:42:04  <peter1138> or is it still only 8 random bis
01:42:05  <peter1138> *bits
01:42:12  <Pikka> I'm not saying it's a problem
01:42:23  <peter1138> "in my experience, the problem"
01:42:25  <peter1138> you're not? :D
01:42:27  <Pikka> oh
01:42:41  <Pikka> well, "the situation in which you tend to use up a lot of random bits" then
01:43:29  <peter1138> oh
01:43:32  <peter1138> yeah, vehicles are 8 bits
01:43:33  <peter1138> weird
01:43:37  <peter1138> that's easy to change
01:43:40  <Eddi|zuHause> random bits cause problems if you want to have like 3 variations of equal chance
01:43:42  <peter1138> guess nobody requested it
01:43:46  <Pikka> 8 bits is plenty
01:43:51  <Pikka> even for UKRS2 :)
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01:44:15  <Eddi|zuHause> if the sum is not a power of 2
01:44:24  <Eddi|zuHause> then the chances can't be equal
01:44:30  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, well, patchman
01:44:31  <Pikka> the solution in that case is "deal wit it" eddi :)
01:45:02  <Pikka> or stop being lazy and draw another variation ;)
01:45:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i think in CETS i used something like 2:3:3 for 1st/2nd/3rd class carriage appearance
01:45:26  <Pikka> sounds perfectly reasonable
01:45:50  <Eddi|zuHause> but that needs 3 random bits instead of 2
01:48:39  <peter1138> -uint32 mask  = (this->num_groups - 1) << this->lowest_randbit;
01:48:39  <peter1138> -byte index = (scope->GetRandomBits() & mask) >> this->lowest_randbit;
01:48:39  <peter1138> +byte index = (scope->GetRandomBits() >> this->lowest_randbit) % this->num_groups;
01:48:51  <peter1138> but hey
01:48:51  <Eddi|zuHause>
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01:50:13  <Pikka> how handy
01:51:58  <Eddi|zuHause> need curvy rails ;)
01:52:27  <Supercheese> Curvy rails are easy. Curvy rails that never glitch... less so
01:52:57  <peter1138> easy?
01:52:57  <peter1138> ok
01:53:20  <Supercheese> Raw sprites that is, with no code to handle funky combinations
01:53:31  <Supercheese> ergo, glitchy
01:53:41  <peter1138> wouldn't be glitchy at all
01:53:47  <peter1138> without code they're won't be shown :p
01:54:35  <Supercheese> of course
01:54:43  <peter1138> -'re
01:55:01  <peter1138> Pikka, so when does ukrs2 get long wagons? :D
01:55:20  <Pikka> never
01:55:27  <Pikka> the broken perspective annoys me too much
01:55:28  <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing it needs to show is a railtype variable to query the railbits of current adjacent tiles
01:55:57  <Pikka> eddi: sounds a bit like my roadtypes spec :)
01:56:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yes-ish
01:56:16  <Pikka> well, yes-ish
01:56:27  <Pikka> I only want to query the road type, not the bits
01:57:19  <Eddi|zuHause> but you're trying to offload things that the game should do onto the GRF
01:58:08  <peter1138> the game can't possibly do it
01:58:29  <peter1138> it would be a horrible mess of conditions
01:58:43  <Eddi|zuHause> the catenary code already does this
01:59:22  <Eddi|zuHause> (check adjacent trackbits for whether catenary should be shown)
01:59:44  <peter1138> trust me, it's different
02:00:34  <peter1138> where would it get the sprites from?
02:00:41  <peter1138> how would it know which to choose?
02:01:45  <Pikka> magic
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02:05:58  <peter1138> hmm, 15 sprites needed just for all combinations of a flat road tile
02:06:13  <peter1138> +4 slopes
02:07:09  <peter1138> now to add adjacency checking...
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02:08:03  <drac_boy> hi
02:08:18  <Pikka> good fun, eh peter? :)
02:08:45  <Pikka> it's one of those things where you template and repeat, though.  It looks more daunting than it is.
02:09:07  <Pikka> iteration
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02:09:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: the problem that is usually cited is that if you offload it onto the grf, you need excessive CPU power to resolve the sprites
02:10:05  <peter1138> could be up to 15 combinations of that
02:10:09  <Eddi|zuHause> which means you need to cache something
02:10:26  <Eddi|zuHause> which needs more map space
02:10:26  <peter1138> so you could need up to 285 sprites (some of which aren't used mind you)
02:10:42  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: why do you need these combinations?
02:11:11  <Pikka> why does it need any more cpu time in grf than in ottd?
02:11:14  <peter1138> for checking adjacency
02:11:20  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: are you talking about the trams thing or the curvy rails?
02:11:21  <Pikka> caching is good :)
02:11:26  <peter1138> trams
02:11:54  <Pikka> peter1138: I'll give it a go if you want it
02:12:09  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: if you keep the overlay and the underlay separate, you still need only 15 sprites times two
02:12:24  <peter1138> Pikka, over head of the sprite resolving state machine
02:12:40  <peter1138> what overlay?
02:12:48  <Pikka> noverlay
02:12:53  <peter1138> base ground sprite + road overlay
02:12:59  <Pikka> needs caching then, peter1138?
02:13:03  <Eddi|zuHause> road = underlay, tram = overlay
02:13:20  <Pikka> no
02:13:24  <peter1138> but tram doesn't exist
02:13:25  <Pikka> haven't we been here before? :D
02:14:39  <Eddi|zuHause> or rather: "road": underlay = road surface, overlay = empty, "tram": unterlay = dirt/grass, overlay = rails, "road+tram" underlay = road surface, overlay = rails
02:14:55  <Eddi|zuHause> for sprite drawing purposes
02:15:20  <Eddi|zuHause> combining road and tram in one sprite is insane
02:15:40  <drac_boy> seem so pikka
02:15:40  <Pikka> oh hello
02:16:35  <Pikka> no, it isn't eddi
02:16:43  <Pikka> but we've already gone around this one 3 times today
02:17:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: we haven't talked about drawing yet
02:17:40  <Eddi|zuHause> the whole discussion before was just about implementation and gameplay details
02:18:02  <Eddi|zuHause> (at least from my side)
02:18:06  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, still wouldn't help anyway
02:18:09  <Pikka> you draw the road sprite provided by the grf, done
02:18:10  <peter1138> 1 ground sprite
02:18:24  <peter1138> 19 road underlays
02:18:27  <peter1138> 19 road overlays
02:18:38  <peter1138> but
02:18:45  <peter1138> that isn't going to work
02:19:12  <peter1138> well, probably not
02:19:47  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: well, i'm still against the one-layer-solution anyway :)
02:19:49  <peter1138> you'd need some way to have an index into the spriteset for the custom overlays
02:20:42  <peter1138> ah so you prefer two road types per tile
02:21:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd actually prefer three, but... ;)
02:21:09  <peter1138> it's easy then cos you've got all the roadbits you need
02:21:13  <peter1138> why free?
02:21:15  <peter1138> ihdrfughohrioawh
02:21:17  <peter1138> why three?
02:21:45  <peter1138> also who's gonna pay for the storage space for that heh
02:21:51  <Pikka> :)
02:22:21  <Pikka> so, realistically, how much overhead are we talking?
02:22:21  <Eddi|zuHause> imagine: road, tram, trolleybus. imagine trolleybus is "tram-like" and can run under tram catenary. if you want to connect a trolleybus to a tram line, you'd get excessive tram rails on that connection tile
02:22:50  <peter1138> Pikka, i really wouldn't like to be doing that for every road tile
02:22:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: nobody ever measured that, which is why the argument is disputed
02:24:06  <peter1138> it's like running a (simple) cpu on top of a cpu
02:24:14  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: or imagine a "elevated rail" or "subway" (hacky-)roadtype, then crossing one of these over a road+tram tile is difficult
02:24:35  <peter1138> elevated/subway can fuck off
02:24:58  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: also this makes road+tram over rail easier, just replace the third type with the rail, and you get a fully flexible tile
02:25:04  <Pikka> fwiw, in my example, non-junction tiles go through 1 var2 (to determine they're not a junction), T junctions go through 4, and X junctions go through 5...
02:25:07  <Pikka> here here peter1138
02:25:21  <Pikka> also hear hear if you prefer
02:25:54  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: yes, that example is weak, but i think the other one is valid
02:25:58  <peter1138> just replace?
02:26:14  <Pikka> you also won't need to do this for every roadtype, just ones which need fancy junctions (ie tramtracks)
02:26:33  <Pikka> normal eg town roads will not need fancy junctions and so will not have any overhead
02:26:47  <peter1138> fully flexible tile
02:26:54  <peter1138> how fully flexible?
02:27:00  <peter1138> diagonal level crossings?
02:27:15  <Eddi|zuHause> for example.
02:27:20  <peter1138> sure
02:27:32  <Eddi|zuHause> in theory you could also have rails-on-roads that way
02:27:39  <peter1138> okay so you now have a limit of 16 rail & road types together
02:27:42  <Eddi|zuHause> with the roads having crossings
02:27:53  <peter1138> apparently 16 rail types wasn't enough, but now you get less
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02:28:04  <Pikka> yay
02:28:07  <Eddi|zuHause> what the how?
02:28:16  <Eddi|zuHause> what are you talking about now?
02:28:26  <Pikka> let's not do roadtypes until we can work out how to integrate road-on-rail, elevated monorails and real subways!
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02:28:28  <peter1138> hmm, so roads have 4 track bits, and rails have 6 track bits, so that's not going to fit
02:29:10  <Eddi|zuHause> (you need another bit to say that this tile has rails on it)
02:29:20  <peter1138> ok
02:30:09  <peter1138> or you extend level crossings and only permit 2 road types and 1 rail type
02:30:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i squeezed the rails in 3 bits (disallowing switches) in my patch (which is mostly an updated version of some ancient patch i found somewhere)
02:30:38  <peter1138> because what you suggested is gonna need a hell of a lot of special casing for something funky
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02:30:54  <Pikka> special casing needs to die
02:31:12  <Eddi|zuHause> also rails need bits for the reservation
02:31:58  <peter1138> i think i'd rather leave all level crossings be perpendicular
02:32:09  <Eddi|zuHause> it's certainly not that easy
02:32:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i have the patch somewhere *dig*
02:33:36  <peter1138> btw, if you go with 1 road type, and use a combined road/tram type, you can get away with having more than 16 types
02:33:52  <peter1138> also you're right about overlays, that will be there
02:34:11  <peter1138> or not
02:34:17  <peter1138> thinkng about sprite sorting :S
02:34:23  <peter1138> 1) groundsprite
02:34:29  <peter1138> 2) road sprite
02:34:53  <peter1138> 3) catenary... but... poles need to be sorted so that can't just be one sprite
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02:35:13  <Pikka> catenary back, catenary front
02:35:17  <Pikka> does it need splitting more than that?
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02:35:40  <peter1138> might be enough
02:35:58  <peter1138> in which case that's 4 sprites :S
02:36:25  <Pikka> is that bad?
02:36:32  <peter1138> well it adds up, heh
02:36:47  <Pikka> is that a problem? :)
02:37:02  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- not entirely sure how complete that is
02:38:38  <Eddi|zuHause> <- this should go to the media/extra_grf thingie
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02:39:08  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's not actually used, because i couldn't figure out the drawing part of the old patch
02:39:27  <Eddi|zuHause> (apparently that was by Maedhros)
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02:40:59  <Eddi|zuHause>
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02:49:36  <peter1138> 5911 :)
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02:53:33  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that was the revision i updated the patch from
02:53:59  <Eddi|zuHause> and this part didn't fit anywhere, because of the railtypes and overlay stuff for level crossings
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02:58:26  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise i just ripped out the crossing-closing code and merged it with my adjacent crossings code, which is more flexible (and was the biggest problem with the old patch in MiniIN)
02:59:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i reshuffled some code wrt the map bits
03:00:07  <peter1138> cbh
03:00:14  <peter1138> need that
03:02:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'll settle for sleep for now
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07:20:19  <andythenorth> moin
07:25:36  <andythenorth> @seen pokka
07:25:36  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pokka was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 22 hours, 7 minutes, and 1 second ago: <Pokka> no, it doesn't mean anything, Supercheese
07:25:42  <andythenorth> @seen pikka
07:25:42  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 4 hours, 48 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <Pikka> is that a problem? :)
07:28:56  <Rubidium> andythenorth: good morning... and you were a little over an hour too late ;)
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07:36:35  <andythenorth> hrm
07:37:01  <andythenorth> strikes me that the combinatorial hassle of drawing roadtypes could be handled at compile time
07:38:54  <andythenorth> use a standard spritesheet
07:39:10  <andythenorth> take each layer, knock out blue with PIL, composite, done
07:49:32  <andythenorth> peter1138: ^
07:49:42  <andythenorth> newgrf author can sort that out
07:50:38  <andythenorth> probly worth making a standard spritesheet, but I'll wait for pokka to show up :P
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09:47:56  <Alberth> moin
10:06:45  <andythenorth> o/
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10:10:20  <andythenorth> how do we feel about industry types specfying number of instances to be on the map, rather than probability?
10:12:41  <andythenorth> scaled for map size
10:12:45  <andythenorth> with some random factor
10:13:24  <Zuu> How does that work with GSes?
10:13:55  <Zuu> Can a GS build an industry even if the max limit is reached?
10:14:33  <Zuu> Oh, and can a player fund an industry beyond the limit?
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10:14:53  <andythenorth> Zuu: yes to all three afaict
10:15:09  <andythenorth> this is only to be used by map gen / in-game industry generator
10:15:19  <andythenorth> there are already cbs for handling the other cases properly
10:15:27  <Zuu> And then as industries close it will fall down to the "max" level.
10:16:57  <Zuu> A problem might be that in some economy there might an incresing demand for some type of industry. Though, that perhaps should be handeled at GS side?
10:18:36  <andythenorth> certainly openttd can't handle that for a specific newgrf, or at least not blind
10:18:57  <andythenorth> GS could handle, but then GS is blind too...
10:19:49  <Zuu> I just got the idea of a GS. Ask the player to create a map with zero industries. THen the GS create one of each industry. when usage of an industry goes over some limit, a new industry of that type is built.
10:20:12  <Zuu> If it want to be even more advanced it could try to analyze the cargo chains to see if there are parallell chains.
10:20:52  <Zuu> Eg. don't build a new farm if there is a unused copper mine (in temperate, default industries)
10:21:49  <Zuu> The idea is that one could see transported cargo in the game as the demand.
10:23:11  <Zuu> But clearly, the GS will not be able to skip some industries in the early years and then later introduce them without doing that blindly.
10:24:32  <Zuu> It have access to the cargo chain graph, so it could eg. skip industries of FIRS at higher level during some years for example. Although that means that you will not get any supplies.
10:24:33  <andythenorth> it would if it knew the industry newgrf :P
10:24:33  <Terkhen> good morning
10:25:11  <andythenorth> I am quite interested in providing a compatibility [something] between FIRS and GS
10:25:14  <andythenorth> lo Terkhen
10:26:40  <Zuu> andythenorth: You could introduce a NewGRF -> GS communication channel by creating an engine that never get buildable (if possible), and use some stats parameter to communicate eg. your identity to the GS.
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10:27:55  <Zuu> It might also be possible to create some sort of signature based on stas from multiple engines/industries etc. that would probably work quite well. Although that would bypass the whole idea that GSes should be allowed to adopt via the API to any NewGRF etc. without specific code for each NewGRF.
10:28:55  <andythenorth> I think that idea is limiting
10:29:11  <andythenorth> otoh, binding too tightly to say one specific rev of FIRS - unmaintainable
10:29:57  <Terkhen> when is FIRS going to become "stable" WRT industries and cargos? :P
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10:31:04  <Celestar> whooop
10:31:05  <Wolf01> hello
10:31:09  <Wolf01> whoa
10:31:25  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01 and Celestar :)
10:31:32  <Celestar> heya peops :)
10:31:39  <Wolf01> sir Celestar, nice to meet you :)
10:31:48  <Celestar> yo wolf, how ya doing?
10:32:26  <Wolf01> just sleeping and hunting as always
10:32:33  <Celestar> :)
10:33:19  <andythenorth> Terkhen: it will never become stable from a GS point of view
10:33:25  <andythenorth> because of parameters and economies
10:33:51  <andythenorth> can't rely on specific behaviour
10:33:58  <Terkhen> thought so, my question was about cargo support by other NewGRFs
10:34:41  <andythenorth> it's about as stable now as it will ever be
10:34:46  <andythenorth> draw your own conclusion :)
10:34:53  <Terkhen> but even with regard to GS, once that existing economies become "stable" the only additions in principle could just be new economies
10:35:18  <andythenorth> yes
10:35:27  <andythenorth> but you don't know which one the player has active
10:35:31  <Terkhen> and now I also wonder if OpenGFX+ Industries is nasty for GS too, with its customizable chains :P
10:35:33  <andythenorth> and chains might be quite different
10:35:34  <Terkhen> oh!
10:35:39  <Terkhen> you don't?
10:35:57  <Terkhen> that complicates things
10:36:15  <andythenorth> I do think it's correct to not allow tightly binding GS to newgrf
10:36:29  <andythenorth> the issue is that we have no abstraction layer for this
10:36:43  <andythenorth> industry <-> cargo <-> vehicles is handled by labels, classes and CTT
10:36:52  <andythenorth> rather well now, despite occasional gripes
10:37:00  <Zuu> Terkhen: They can be nasty to Neighbours are important. Because it still uses a hard coded set of town effects per climate. I haven't got around to even think about making it more dynamic untill FLHerne told me about an issue due to this.
10:37:46  <Zuu> A more propper way would be to resolve which town effects that have at least one cargo (which can be produced)
10:38:14  <Terkhen> Zuu: I see... and you can't deduce the active industries by looking at the active cargos with OpenGFX+ Industries either; there are chain changes that do not alter the active cargos (such as the sawmill or forest as wood producing industry change)
10:38:36  <Terkhen> the scenario format is going to need an abstraction scheme for industries anyways
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10:39:08  <Terkhen> maybe it could be possible to introduce a single format that can be used by both GS and the new scenarios
10:39:28  <andythenorth> we might already have it...
10:39:31  <Terkhen> but our usual discussions about that topic did not reach a clear conclusion IIRC
10:39:34  <Terkhen> which one? :O
10:39:36  <andythenorth> industry type (primary, secondary etc)
10:39:48  <andythenorth> extractive, organic
10:39:59  <Terkhen> well, that's better than nothing I guess :P
10:40:09  <Zuu> I don't exactly follow what you want, but it might be useful.
10:40:13  <andythenorth> hrm
10:40:19  <Terkhen> WRT the scenario format, I guess that you could define "primary organic industry at X, Y"
10:40:21  <andythenorth> we could do the equivalent of a CTT
10:40:23  <Celestar> eh. good to see that fonso is still working on cd :D
10:40:46  <Terkhen> and OpenTTD would cycle through all the available industries that match and create one of them there if the NewGRF restrictions allow it
10:40:48  <Zuu> Another thing that the scenario format might provide is a set of strings with some english text identifier that the GS can iterate over and use in GUIs.
10:41:19  <Terkhen> the scenario format is only used for map generation
10:41:34  <Zuu> For example a scenario in the secnario format may provide a set of texts to use as an introduction text for players. A generic GS can then find this text and display it.
10:41:58  <Terkhen> hmm... that's interesting :P
10:42:12  <Zuu> It could be done with signs though, but tedious for longer texts and no support for translations.
10:42:21  <andythenorth> Terkhen: how much data can the scenario format encode for a specific tile?
10:42:29  <Terkhen> andythenorth: there are no limits
10:42:31  <andythenorth> ok
10:42:42  <Terkhen> each data is stored in a different layer
10:42:43  <andythenorth> so you might, for example, specify a list of cargo labels for a tile
10:42:46  <andythenorth> in order
10:42:56  <Terkhen> and industries are stored in a ini-like file
10:43:04  <andythenorth> and openttd would try and build industries producing those cargos
10:43:07  <andythenorth> or accepting
10:43:20  <andythenorth> that's about as much control as is justified imho
10:43:22  <Zuu> I still wonder when *someone* will create a generic Scenario Toolbox GS. Which have a set of triggers and a set of actions and uses signs + GS config to configure scenarios. That would enable people without knowledge about programming to create some more dynamic scenarios.
10:44:00  <Terkhen> andythenorth: <-- something on the lines of this
10:44:23  <andythenorth> cargos=[COAL,IORE,BAUX]
10:44:35  <andythenorth> dunno if that's useful
10:44:39  <andythenorth> seems kind of neat though
10:44:46  <Terkhen> Zuu: what would those triggers do?
10:45:15  <Zuu> For shorter instructions, signs should work well. They can hold up to 32 chars and can easily be removed by the GS before the player sees it by just storing their position + content in memory and remove all signs during the 2500 ticks setup.
10:45:34  <Terkhen> andythenorth: IIRC our conclusion last time was to "define how the original industry worked and make a magical function in OpenTTD that finds the most similar industry"
10:46:03  <Terkhen> that would work perfectly fine if you use the same NewGRF that originated the scenario in the first time, and would give poor results (as expected) with other NewGRFs
10:46:06  <Zuu> Terkhen: A trigger would be a condition. Eg Year=1987
10:46:54  <andythenorth> Terkhen so find the best fit over action 0 properties or something?
10:46:57  <Terkhen> Zuu: so the scenario would define triggers by an specific ID, and the GS would be able to check that trigger to see when it should do a certain thing?
10:47:01  <Zuu> I also think that it might be useful to allow placing label signs which can be used by other signs to refer to locations of the map.
10:47:10  <Terkhen> andythenorth: yes, that should be simpler
10:47:19  <Zuu> So that you can refer to a town/industry without knowing their internal ID.
10:47:37  <Zuu> (but limits to towns/industries that exist when the scenario is created)
10:47:55  <Zuu> Terkhen: Yes
10:48:32  <Terkhen> with regard to the ini format used in the scenario format for stuff that is not defined in most tiles (those use image layers) defining a "trigger object file" would be trivial
10:48:51  <Terkhen> I have no idea about OpenTTD's implementation of those, though :P
10:48:53  <Zuu> I also think that the scenario author should be able to choose from a set of actions to bind togeather with the triggers.
10:49:25  <Zuu> From my understanding this (my scenario toolbox GS idea) is already possible to implement as a GS.
10:50:34  <Zuu> Both Split and the Beginner Tutorial use a library called TileLabels which allow me to define named locations in the .scn by placing signs with $L=name, and then refer to "name" to query for that location.
10:51:40  <Zuu> The library takes care of reading all these signs into memory so that the player never sees them. It also helps saving/loading the named locations into save games.
10:51:57  <Terkhen> I am a bit lost because I don't know much about AI/Script coding (OpenTTD or not), but if you can represent what you want in a human readable text file, it should not present many problems from a scenario format point of view
10:52:07  <Terkhen> you could have a GS layer that defines those
10:52:26  <Terkhen> labels for points, labels for towns, labels for industries and triggers
10:53:07  <Terkhen> the loading code is easy, but I don't know if OpenTTD should or could write those when you generate a scenario
10:53:08  <Alberth> just named positions would be enough like "name = (17, 31)"    or "name = (45%, 78%)"
10:53:47  <Alberth> hmm, no idea what the format does with size of the map
10:56:19  <Zuu> I don't know if we want additional location based signs to those we already have. What we might want to add (both in vanilia OpenTTD and the secenario format) is longer texts that are not location based. Eg. for the author of a scenario to include a mission description inside the scenario. (In some cases he/she will use a full-blown mission-specific GS and can then leave all that up to the GS. In other cases the GS will not work (well) with rando
10:56:19  <Zuu> m games, but need the scenario athuor to set things up. In the later case the scenario author might want to customize the welcome message or some news message shown by some date etc.)
10:59:40  <Alberth> some meta-text may be useful, I agree :)
10:59:47  <Terkhen> it is planned (although not for the first implementation of the format) to add a langs folder with language files, for stuff such as the scenario name and description
11:00:19  <Zuu> What will have use for some industry abstraction might be when you want to have a action to build industry X. How do you as the scenario author know (or specify) the internal ID of the industry that you want to build?
11:00:20  <Terkhen> you could add more strings to those files that can be used by GS, but then the scenarios would not be "cleanly generated" anymore
11:00:21  <andythenorth> using the scenario format to put GS controls on the map makes total sense to me
11:01:03  <Terkhen> what I mean is that you would need to either store those strings "somewhere" in the generated map (if I understand the current situation correctly, all those strings are extracted from NewGRFs, scripts and so on on load)
11:01:23  <Terkhen> or to keep the "new scenario" from which the map was generated around to get those strings on load
11:01:36  <Terkhen> but it would not be a "generate and forget" situation anymore
11:01:54  <Zuu> The GS strings are to my undestanding stored in the savegame to allow network clients to show translated strings without having the GS locally.
11:01:57  <Alberth> andythenorth: probability is nearly equivalent to number of instances when you state the total number of industries
11:02:07  <Terkhen> sorry if I'm playing the devil's advocate here, I like the idea a lot too :)
11:02:19  <Terkhen> Zuu: then the scenario format strings could use the same mechanism, yes :)
11:02:29  <Zuu> The String parameter evaluating code actually contain a parameter for if it tries to decode a game script string or not.
11:03:07  <Alberth> andythenorth: on my last attempt I tried to get the latter from a NewGRF with a generic cb, but failed :(
11:03:29  <Alberth> tbh, I like some variation in the precise number of instances of each type
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11:13:24  <andythenorth> Alberth: random factor :P
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11:13:56  <Alberth> so you go back to probability of instances :p
11:14:09  <andythenorth> +/-1 multiplied by map scaling factor
11:14:17  <Alberth> or do you want to move the random sampling into the NewGRF?
11:14:26  <peter1138> compile errors in clang are noisy
11:14:36  <andythenorth> random sampling could be in openttd, or newgrf
11:14:37  <andythenorth> don't mind
11:14:44  <andythenorth> I'm trying to make my life easy as a coder
11:14:45  <andythenorth> hrm
11:14:56  <andythenorth> alternative suggestion, I do this at compile time with python
11:15:22  <andythenorth> means walking all the industries every time for every economy
11:15:39  <Alberth> 1/2 a second? :)
11:17:25  <andythenorth> trying to work out the maths
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11:17:39  <andythenorth> so I want 5 hotels, 4 coal mines, 6 petrol stations on the map
11:17:47  <andythenorth> 15 in total
11:17:49  <andythenorth> hrm
11:17:54  <andythenorth> can't control the total :P
11:18:13  <Celestar> yo peter1138 :D :D
11:18:14  <andythenorth> two problems actually
11:18:24  <andythenorth> 1) can't control number of industries (do I care?)
11:18:36  <SpComb> peter1138: make 2> /dev/dsp
11:18:41  <andythenorth> 2) every time an industry type is added / removed, probability has to be recalculated for all others
11:18:52  <andythenorth> 2 is a problem for authoring economies :P
11:19:03  <peter1138> Celestar! :D
11:19:35  <peter1138> SpComb, yeah but i need them else i won't know to fix
11:19:38  <Celestar> how dyou do?
11:20:19  <peter1138> badly, i'm coding using the method of "fix errors as they come" instead of "planning"
11:20:24  <peter1138> nah, pretty well, how's you?
11:20:28  <Celestar> lol
11:20:36  <Celestar> good good :)
11:20:48  <Alberth> andythenorth:  have some sort of graph that states desired number of industries of the types over time, and derive the probabilities from that (not sure how to do that exactly)
11:20:59  <Celestar> I just don't code outside of work anymore :P
11:21:06  <Alberth> :(
11:21:26  <Celestar> Maybe because I have to do enterprise-java shit at the moment and it makes me wanna puke
11:22:00  <Celestar> otoh, that would be a reason to do some real coding again
11:22:17  <Alberth> and a bit of low-level bit-coding in C++ wouldn't make you happy again?
11:22:27  <Celestar> I think it might :)
11:22:45  <andythenorth> Alberth: more fine control than I want; think industry over time is a GS thing?
11:22:57  <Alberth> it does for me, at least (doing Java too, but luckily no enterprise stuff)
11:23:15  <andythenorth> also, probability cb would already allow time-based control ;)
11:23:16  <peter1138> Celestar, i know a small project you could do
11:23:22  <Celestar> lmao
11:23:24  <peter1138> custom bridge heads ;)
11:23:30  <Celestar> haha
11:23:34  <Celestar> you got a point there
11:23:45  <peter1138> fcvo small
11:23:55  <Celestar> fcwhat
11:24:01  <peter1138> it was only small back in rprehistoric
11:24:07  <peter1138> for certain values of
11:24:19  <Alberth> andythenorth: you probably won't get that much control, I was seeing it as a better way to specify your economy
11:24:34  <Alberth> ie let Python do the complicated math stuff
11:24:43  <Celestar> I am not sure I still recognize the code :P
11:24:51  <SpComb> I'm busy separating mechanism and policy myself
11:25:25  <andythenorth> ah :)  'Economy' is more of an action 6/7/9 whatever it's called :P  (turn industries on or off in game)
11:25:38  <andythenorth> otherwise they appear in minimap etc
11:25:41  <andythenorth> hrm
11:25:44  <andythenorth> no
11:25:47  <andythenorth> that was a bad idea I had
11:26:00  <Alberth> but you caught it in time :)
11:26:00  <andythenorth> enable types to be disabled / enabled during gameplay
11:26:03  <andythenorth> bad bad bad andythenorth
11:26:09  <SpComb> although trouble is that once you start implementing the policy, you end up having to separate that into mechaism and policy as well
11:27:09  <SpComb> and then you get all confused because your policy-policy that you have to implement in your policy-mechanism isn't defined well enough
11:27:34  <andythenorth> the only question for policy
11:27:38  <andythenorth> is how far you deviate from it :P
11:27:38  <SpComb> and then once you've spent a week writing python, you realize that you could do the same thing in ten lines of shellscript
11:27:41  <andythenorth> in practice
11:27:43  * Rubidium waves to Celestar
11:27:57  <andythenorth> SpComb you must be doing devops :O
11:28:06  <SpComb> kinda
11:28:21  <SpComb> the concrete thing I'm doing is syslog -> irc
11:29:23  <SpComb> I'm smart enough to separate it into syslog-ng, a python script, and irker (or similar)
11:29:42  <Celestar> hey Rubidium :D
11:29:56  <SpComb> but now I need to figure out what kind of config file the python script should use to regexp the syslogs
11:31:29  <Alberth> INI format :)
11:31:39  <SpComb> indeed
11:32:16  <SpComb> however, there are multiple syslog hosts, facilities and programs, and possibly multiple irker targets (irc channels)
11:32:53  <Alberth> oh, you're making your life complicated :p
11:32:55  <SpComb> e.g. some hosts should show all ssh logins, others should ignore some sudo commands, etc
11:33:16  <SpComb> Alberth: no, I'm separating mechanism and policy \o/
11:33:20  <andythenorth> hrm
11:33:27  <andythenorth> does FISH separate policy and mechanism?
11:33:34  <andythenorth> also where is frosch?
11:33:38  <andythenorth> he usually turns up when needed :P
11:33:42  <Alberth> one cfg file for each irc channel, with a [enable] and a [disable] section with named REs ?
11:33:54  <Alberth> you don't need him, apparently :p
11:34:20  <andythenorth> well views need him ;)
11:34:34  <andythenorth> and FISH needs views
11:34:35  <andythenorth> ego...
11:34:38  <andythenorth> ergo*
11:34:53  <SpComb> Alberth: and copy-paste everything across them? D:
11:35:40  <Celestar> Rubidium: how is life treating you
11:36:35  <SpComb>
11:36:56  <andythenorth> SpComb: explicit is better
11:37:05  <andythenorth> here's a nice idea
11:37:10  <andythenorth> template your ini files?
11:37:15  <andythenorth> keep the definitions in classes?
11:37:18  <andythenorth> and write them out?
11:38:03  <SpComb> observe the nested sections that filter on matched fields in the parent rule \o/
11:38:37  <andythenorth> so keep them in classes, use inheritance (multiply if needed)
11:38:45  <andythenorth> you could also add interfaces :P
11:38:53  <SpComb> inheritance is evil
11:38:53  <andythenorth> write out the ini files at compile time
11:39:06  <andythenorth> my idea is definitely *not* smoking crack :P
11:44:11  <andythenorth> herp, the way I described is actually how FISH and BANDIT are constructed :P
11:44:30  <andythenorth> classes in python web cms -> ini file -> python build framework
11:44:40  <andythenorth> draw your own conclusion about my mental state :P
11:51:27  <Rubidium> Celestar: life's good, but for some reason I haven't got a huge drive to do OpenTTD stuff in the last time :(
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11:51:40  <Rubidium> oh... typical!
11:51:58  <Rubidium> that's how it's supposed to be
11:52:05  <Rubidium> brings back memories
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11:53:41  <andythenorth> quak
11:53:43  <andythenorth> there he is
11:55:31  <frosch123> moin :)
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11:58:26  <andythenorth> herp views
11:59:06  <andythenorth> frosch123: any more ideas ^
11:59:16  * andythenorth is considering redesigning FISH
11:59:22  <andythenorth> and BANDIT
11:59:26  <frosch123> i wanted to write a spec two weeks ago :)
11:59:28  <andythenorth> maybe HEQS too :P
11:59:58  <andythenorth> frosch123: what blocked you? :)
12:03:37  <frosch123> "I'm so excited I even looked up the bbcode for numbered list" :)
12:04:32  <Alberth> :)
12:05:09  <andythenorth> I woke up in a funny mood today :P
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12:05:17  <andythenorth> that trolling post found some troll bait
12:05:46  <andythenorth> I wish we had more TrueBrain
12:05:51  <andythenorth> he writes funny posts :P
12:06:01  <Flygon> I should post
12:06:10  <Flygon> I'd be the Forum Cloun!
12:06:11  <Flygon> ...
12:06:17  <Flygon> Or the forum English fail
12:06:31  <Alberth> both are good for some laughs :p
12:06:38  * andythenorth considers a petition
12:06:42  <andythenorth> for the return of DaleStan
12:09:30  <peter1138> uh oh
12:09:36  <peter1138> what's he up to these days anyway?
12:10:29  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I am not sure if it is a compliment or not, but tnx :P
12:14:16  <andythenorth> compliment ;)
12:15:05  <TrueBrain> :D
12:15:25  <andythenorth> hmm
12:15:35  <andythenorth> bridge weight limits would enhance gameplay no?
12:15:39  <andythenorth> and axle loadings :P
12:16:49  <andythenorth> answer was 'no'
12:17:41  <frosch123> how about bridge height and low bridges?
12:17:51  <andythenorth> yay
12:17:58  <andythenorth> definitely more fine-grained realism :)
12:18:01  <andythenorth> more of that
12:18:15  <andythenorth> friction co-efficient of different road surface types?
12:18:19  <frosch123> more realistic road accidents :)
12:18:32  <frosch123> you do not have to send a train on a crossing
12:18:36  <frosch123> you can just build a low bridge
12:18:42  <frosch123> and every bus drives into it
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12:19:38  <drac_boy> hi
12:20:09  <frosch123> isn't it 4 am at your side?
12:20:24  <drac_boy> nope..past 7
12:20:58  <frosch123> so, not .ca :)
12:21:29  <planetmaker> East coast?
12:21:38  <planetmaker> good morning everyone :-)
12:21:48  <frosch123> morning pm :)
12:23:01  <Alberth> moin
12:23:25  <drac_boy> frosch yes it is .ca
12:23:34  <Rubidium> frosch123: it's anywhere between 04:23 and 08:53 in Canada
12:23:42  <drac_boy> canada goes all way from east to west sides of the north america land silly :)
12:24:07  <frosch123> omg... why did i consider .ca as california?
12:24:16  <planetmaker> :D
12:24:16  <andythenorth> me too
12:24:23  <Alberth> it's sunnier there? :)
12:25:38  <andythenorth> ah
12:26:01  <andythenorth> if I know the number of industries in 'main' FIRS economy (I do), I can use that as a scaling factor for probability in other economies
12:26:10  <andythenorth> now I just need to outsource the maths :P
12:28:12  <Rubidium> so... you consider California as a country?
12:28:49  <andythenorth> almost is
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12:31:24  <drac_boy> its a state :p
12:31:50  <frosch123> oh, there is a ".name" domain... never heard of that one
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12:31:56  <andythenorth> someone on the interwebs is being wrong again
12:32:00  <andythenorth> should I correct them?
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12:34:27  <Alberth> better disconnect all bad people from your internets
12:34:37  <andythenorth> I'm trying to drive them away :P
12:34:39  <andythenorth> not working
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12:34:52  <Alberth> wb
12:35:49  <Celestar> ta
12:36:05  <planetmaker> heia Celestar
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12:36:48  <Alberth> Celestar: you missed an answer from Rb:
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12:38:27  <Celestar> Alberth: ta
12:38:32  <Celestar> Rubidium: lol :)
12:39:04  <Celestar> yo planetmaker
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12:46:16  <andythenorth> roadtype: plank road!
12:46:16  <andythenorth>
12:51:46  <frosch123> "I thought I have listed all possibilities..."
12:52:33  <frosch123> well, maybe road should be build in 3 parts
12:52:37  <frosch123> road, tram, catenary
12:53:13  <planetmaker> hm :-) People will find cases where it doesn't suffice
12:53:27  <planetmaker> I couldn't care less ;-)
12:53:37  <planetmaker> (about those edge-cases)
12:53:49  <frosch123> town owned road, company owned catenary
12:56:04  <peter1138> :S
12:56:24  <planetmaker> and 2nd-company-owned tracks?
12:58:13  <Celestar> why would you own a catenary if you don't have tracks? :P
12:58:24  <frosch123> trolley bus
12:58:26  <planetmaker> trolley bus
12:59:00  <frosch123> anyway, this issue already annoy me about railtypes. if there are 8 railtypes and 8 railtypes which are exactly the same as the first 8 but with catenary... there is something wrong
12:59:10  <frosch123> again the same with road types: 8 road types, same 8 plus catenary
12:59:23  <frosch123> that is just as stupid as cargo subtypes for number of wagons :)
12:59:26  <Celestar> 2 catenarties then!! :D
12:59:40  <planetmaker> agreed, frosch123 :-)
13:00:21  <Eddi|zuHause> so back to 3 layers, but this time not "freeform" but "road", "(tram-)rail", "catenary"?
13:00:48  <Eddi|zuHause> but you need to build the tram layer and the catenary layer at the same time...
13:01:08  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, why?
13:01:29  <planetmaker> and yes, could be done by a check-box type thing in the tram build menu
13:01:32  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: call the third one "power-supply" :)
13:01:49  <frosch123> then it can be "none", "catenary", "3rd rail" "3rd rail + catenary" :p
13:01:59  <planetmaker> which, incidentially, could also be extended to rail :D
13:02:08  <Celestar> 3rd rail for trams?
13:02:16  <planetmaker> yes. e.g. in bordeaux
13:02:45  <Eddi|zuHause> most metrorail systems are legally operated as trams
13:02:45  <Celestar> innit that a little dangerous
13:02:55  <Celestar> yeah, point
13:02:59  <planetmaker> nope. Only active when train over it. Outside downtown they use pantograph
13:03:14  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. Hamburg (Hochbahn) or Berlin (U-Bahn)
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13:04:15  <andythenorth> frosch123: I think it's fine that route type + power are combined
13:04:18  <Eddi|zuHause> some random thought i had: tram speed limit different if on-road and off-road
13:04:41  <Eddi|zuHause> (or maybe if both road and tram have a speedlimit, take the lowest one)
13:04:51  * andythenorth had a thought
13:05:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: newgrf roadstations [with animation]
13:10:42  <andythenorth> sometimes I think newgrf roadstops might be nice
13:10:47  <andythenorth> probably not the biggest deal though
13:11:09  <peter1138> sometimes i think starting from scratch might be nice
13:11:09  <andythenorth> aren't roadtypes either 'powered' or 'not'
13:11:22  <andythenorth> in fact, they're not even powered
13:11:27  <andythenorth> either they're compatible, or not
13:11:35  <andythenorth> it's that simple
13:12:29  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's not
13:12:36  <planetmaker> keeping a tram and a road "roadtype" might be nice. Unless we merge train an tram. But that's even more bear-trapped path, I fear
13:13:04  <peter1138> yeah well, trams have been coded as road vehicles :-(
13:13:06  <Eddi|zuHause> one tile could be "road with catenary" plus "tram without catenary", and the other could be "road without catenary" plus "tram with catenary"
13:13:18  <Eddi|zuHause> now figure out which vehicle can travel on it?
13:13:19  <peter1138> kinda right cos they're usually on roads
13:14:11  <peter1138> okay so
13:14:24  <peter1138> road + tram + a catenary-bit
13:14:30  <peter1138> same for rails
13:14:35  <peter1138> rail + a catenary-bit
13:14:41  <andythenorth> erp, I like one type per tile :P
13:14:42  <andythenorth> but eh
13:14:58  <peter1138> which goes all the way back to elrails
13:15:02  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that fails once you consider multi-voltage [dutch set] or 3rd rail
13:15:20  <peter1138> not a problem with 3rd rail
13:15:32  <peter1138> 3rd rail isn't in the sky
13:15:41  <peter1138> blah
13:15:47  <peter1138> it's all horrible and i give up
13:15:50  <Eddi|zuHause> plus there's currently no sane way to draw the 3rd rail
13:16:01  <peter1138> eh?
13:16:06  <andythenorth> plus, it's teeny tiny
13:16:09  <Eddi|zuHause> can't include it in the rail sprite, because it would overlap on switches
13:16:11  <andythenorth> plus, does it matter?
13:16:13  <peter1138> pikka's managed pretty well
13:16:17  <planetmaker> drawing catenary separately is done anyway. Thus separating that is at least not a graphical issue
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13:16:18  <andythenorth> plus, eh, what does it do for gameplay?
13:16:25  <Eddi|zuHause> can't include it in the base sprite because that is drawn in places which have no rails
13:16:28  <planetmaker> 3rd-rail... is integrated somehow in the tracks
13:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause> can't make left/right variation [similar to catenary]
13:16:42  <peter1138> 3rd rail is part of the track indeed
13:16:50  <peter1138> so i dunno what eddi is talking about
13:17:29  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: switches are combined by overlapping rail sprites. if the 3rd rail is hardcoded into the track sprite, the 3rd rail would cross a track
13:17:35  <andythenorth> it probably does
13:17:41  <peter1138> *shrug*
13:17:53  <peter1138> it works for pikka's 3rd rail
13:18:13  <andythenorth> hrm, yes, he's figured it out
13:18:42  <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what pikka's rail does, but the one i've seen around was encoded into the trackbase, which occasionally places 3rd rail in places which have no trackbit
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13:19:04  <peter1138> if it's not pikka's i don't really care ;)
13:19:07  <Eddi|zuHause> because on 2-way-switches, the 3rd trackbit is not placed, but has a trackbase underneath it
13:19:48  <peter1138> anyway i think pikka requested that he be allowed to draw points himself, and not have the game combine them
13:19:55  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the point is, it's not enough (tm)
13:21:17  <Eddi|zuHause> that could possibly be a property of the railtype. the spriteset would have to be bigger (2^6 sprites for base and track)
13:21:43  <peter1138> nope
13:21:59  <peter1138> not quite
13:22:14  <Eddi|zuHause> either let the game combine crossings, or provide all crossing sprites manually
13:22:20  <peter1138> (2^6)-1
13:22:21  <peter1138> :p
13:22:26  <Eddi|zuHause> well yes ;)
13:22:35  <planetmaker> :D
13:22:51  <Eddi|zuHause> and then add double tracks on one tile :p
13:22:58  <peter1138> shut up
13:28:17  <andythenorth> urgh
13:28:19  <andythenorth> spec paralysis
13:28:48  <andythenorth> or as I was told once, you can own 100% of a £5m company, or 10% of a £100m company
13:29:10  <andythenorth> [that is a variation on the usual version, which has 100% of £0]
13:29:50  <andythenorth> one of those two options involves a lot more crap than the others
13:30:43  <andythenorth> and really once, you've got £5m, do you care about getting £10m?
13:31:16  <andythenorth> especially given all the crap involved
13:31:35  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently there are people that do
13:31:53  <andythenorth> for those that miss the point of this little homily
13:32:04  <andythenorth> newgrf roadtypes > no newgrf roadtypes
13:33:09  <andythenorth> if you don't like what your newgrf author does with it, fire them :P
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13:56:25  <Flygon> Was Naples a Japanese city?
13:57:28  <Rubidium> why would you think that?
13:58:29  <peter1138> you might if you didn't know it's in italy
13:58:57  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe there's another naples in japan? do you really know all cities in japan? :p
13:59:03  <Rubidium> isn't naples in Florida?
13:59:34  <Rubidium> there's a Napoli in Italy
14:00:33  <peter1138> yeah, it's awkward that we "translate" names :S
14:02:22  <Rubidium> anyhow... they don't really have a L
14:02:33  <Rubidium> so it'd rather be napori
14:02:41  <Flygon> Thanks
14:02:51  <Flygon> Rubidium: I'm playing Civilization II
14:02:58  <Flygon> I suspect I ran out of Japanese city names
14:03:50  <Celestar> after the national cities run out, Civ2 starts with Roman cities (except Rome) :P
14:04:46  <Flygon> ...
14:04:47  <Flygon> Huh
14:04:52  <Flygon> That explains a lot
14:05:08  <Flygon> Yeah, Naples is the second city, isn't it?
14:05:12  <Flygon> Whites are Russians atm
14:05:27  <Celestar> yah it is
14:05:30  <Celestar> never liked II too much
14:05:41  <Flygon> Really?
14:05:44  <Flygon> I love II
14:05:48  <Flygon> SMAC/X is better, though
14:06:54  <Celestar> IV was pretty good
14:06:56  <Celestar> SMAC?
14:07:08  <Flygon> Shame Civ II can't be ported to SMACX
14:07:10  <Flygon> Oh, SMAC
14:07:12  <Flygon> Alpha Centauri
14:07:15  <Celestar> ahh
14:07:17  <Celestar> yeah.
14:07:19  <Flygon> The 'direct' sequel to Civ II
14:07:27  <Celestar> haven't tried CIV 5 yet.
14:07:39  <Flygon> I've not played IV and V yet
14:07:43  <Flygon> Mainly from laziness
14:07:55  <Flygon> Took me years to get addicted to OpenTTD
14:08:04  <Flygon> Now I churn raging profit :P
14:08:40  <Celestar> IV was the first one I found better than CIV. way better, especially with BTS expansion
14:08:44  <Celestar> you got Steam?
14:08:49  <Flygon> I do
14:09:01  <Celestar> Civ IV is currently up for -75% including all Xpacs.
14:09:07  <Flygon> I'm also broke :p
14:09:08  <Flygon> Sorry
14:09:09  <Celestar> 7 EUR or so :P
14:09:18  <Flygon> I can't afford the 7EUR x.x
14:09:19  <Celestar> heh :D
14:09:37  <Flygon> I recommend trying out SMACX :3
14:09:44  <Flygon> Assuming you're familar enough with II
14:09:52  <Flygon> It's basically a turbocharged version of that
14:09:59  <Rubidium> Celestar: CIV, is the Civ (I) or Civ IV?
14:10:02  <Flygon> Heck, it has a few features that future Civs tended to lack
14:10:16  <Flygon> Such as 3D heightmaps (like OpenTTD)
14:10:29  <Flygon> Except it's actually rendered in 3D :D
14:11:00  <Celestar> CIV .. CIV is CIV I
14:11:05  <Flygon> It's sorta hilarious SMACX was 100% 3D, but Civ III was not at all 3D :P
14:11:23  <Celestar> I only played Alpha Centrauri
14:11:27  <Celestar> minus the r
14:12:09  <Flygon> Ah, not with the expansion pack?
14:12:13  <Celestar> nope
14:12:13  <Flygon> The pack adds a lot
14:12:30  <Celestar> I just found a disk image of RRTD :D
14:12:41  <Flygon> Though, the inclusion of a Borg inspired faction rose a few eyebrows :p
14:12:46  <Terkhen> I can recommend Civilization IV too, as long as it is the complete edition and you are not afraid of testing mods :P
14:12:57  <Celestar> Terkhen: or write your own :D
14:13:05  <Celestar> Terkhen: BTS was the last XPac I purchased
14:13:05  <Terkhen> there is even a SMAC mod for CIV
14:13:17  <Celestar> there is a Space Mod for CIV IV :D
14:13:24  <Celestar> which is quite fun, actually
14:13:44  <Terkhen> Celestar: I'm usually happy with downloading existing mods and fiddling with their code a bit :P
14:13:52  <Celestar> Mylon Mod :D
14:13:59  <Flygon> When peeps say 'space mod', I think of Mega-lo-Mania @_@
14:14:04  <Flygon> ...MLM was odd
14:14:09  <Celestar> haha
14:14:17  <Celestar> it was one friggen awesome game
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14:16:08  <Terkhen> I play either a mod that starts with a word that I don't want to mention here or Fall from Heaven 2
14:16:15  <Terkhen> :P
14:16:39  <Flygon> Celestar has played Mega-lo-Mania?
14:16:44  <Celestar> ofc
14:16:47  <Flygon> I love you
14:16:50  <Celestar> about 20 years ago :P
14:16:59  <Flygon> Amiga or Mega Drive?
14:17:12  <Celestar> Amiga. and PC later on
14:17:15  <Flygon> I got the Mega Drive cart lying around somewhere...
14:17:24  <Flygon> Ah, I tried to use the DOS version...
14:17:27  <Flygon> Went horribly
14:17:34  <Flygon> Ended up just going back to the Mega Drive :p
14:17:48  <Flygon> Nukes are annoying as *$(# when you lack a mouse, though
14:21:16  <Flygon> As well as launching nukes on SDI's... makes you wish you had the ability to launch multiple nukes at once
14:21:49  <Flygon> And that SDI were a passive rather than active defense... a remake of MLM could fix a lot of gameplay detriments @_@
14:22:40  <Celestar> make one
14:23:26  <Flygon> Ehh, it's been done
14:23:42  <Flygon> Could use better art and a lot of improvement, but it's been done
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14:39:15  <Celestar> hm..
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14:40:27  <Celestar> are there trams in the default set meanwhile?
14:40:28  <Flygon> We welcome the new Japanese city of Cunaxa :p
14:40:32  <Celestar> zBase
14:40:38  <Flygon> Don't think so
14:41:46  <Alberth> nope, because they are not in the original base set
14:42:33  <Flygon> It'll never be padded with trams?
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14:44:26  <Alberth> my crystal ball is quite unclear there :)
14:44:35  <Celestar> buy a better one
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14:46:28  <Celestar> do newgrfs support high-resolution 32bpp sprites meanwhile
14:46:47  <Alberth> yes
14:47:08  <Alberth> zBase is a base set  NewGRF :p
14:47:36  <Alberth> but regular NewGRF works too, even for high-resolution 8bpp
14:51:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: NewGRFs support high-res and 32bpp independent of each other
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14:58:40  <andythenorth> hmm
14:58:42  <andythenorth> FIRS time
14:59:25  <andythenorth> what shall I call the dock industry?
14:59:34  <Alberth> harbour?
14:59:49  <andythenorth> port, harbour, dock, import / export terminal
14:59:50  <andythenorth> wharf
14:59:56  <andythenorth> shipping terminal
15:00:01  <Alberth> +1 !
15:00:05  <andythenorth> to all?
15:00:07  <Eddi|zuHause> one of those :)
15:00:16  <Alberth> just the last one, imho
15:00:17  <andythenorth> some might be confusing with existing 'dock' ?
15:00:34  <andythenorth> quay
15:00:35  <andythenorth> mole
15:00:43  <Eddi|zuHause> import/export terminal may work better in a landlocked map
15:01:08  <Alberth> wharf sounds good too :p
15:01:12  <Eddi|zuHause> (and a placement rule "near large body of water, or near map edge")
15:01:23  <Alberth> it probably doesn't mean anything :)
15:01:23  <Eddi|zuHause> wharf is rather where ships are built
15:01:32  <Eddi|zuHause> that has nothing to do with import/export
15:01:38  <Alberth> oh, it does
15:01:40  <andythenorth> not in UK english
15:01:47  <andythenorth> wharf is a quay
15:01:52  <andythenorth> which is where ships berth
15:02:07  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: can you find the newgrf var for 'large body of water'? o_O
15:02:15  <andythenorth> I would like a new pony please :P
15:02:21  <andythenorth> use the pathfinder to count num. tiles
15:02:23  <andythenorth> or something
15:02:51  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "at least 200 square-tiles"?
15:03:16  <andythenorth> you want me to spiral out in a tile var checkw when building?
15:03:22  <andythenorth> or use a lot of magic tile FF?
15:03:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a possibility
15:04:17  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i guess then "wharf" and "Werft" are somewhat false friends
15:04:27  <peter1138> should be an internal function
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15:10:46  <andythenorth> how to get distance to map edge?
15:10:56  <peter1138> who cares?
15:11:08  <peter1138> on a 2048x2048 map? :p
15:11:11  <andythenorth> good point
15:11:30  <Eddi|zuHause> coordinates and map_x/map_y global variables
15:11:31  <andythenorth> fiddly is enemy of done
15:12:27  <peter1138> wah, why can i have gnome 2
15:13:00  <peter1138> gnome 3 is like ripping out all newgrf support in openttd
15:18:23  <andythenorth> sounds...cleansing
15:20:29  <peter1138> sounds like a user experience nightmare
15:20:38  <peter1138> i'm sure it's lovely if you're coming from it as a new user
15:20:52  <peter1138> but so much stuff has changed or simply gone
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15:33:39  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I need to tell the makefile that firs.pnml location is moved, can't see where to do that :)
15:35:18  <andythenorth> solved :)
15:37:38  <andythenorth> herp, what do I call the file that sets up all the cpp #includes ?
15:37:50  <andythenorth> what is it?  Config?  Manifest?
15:37:59  <andythenorth> project definition?
15:39:22  <Alberth> magic?
15:39:38  <andythenorth> magic :P
15:41:25  <Eddi|zuHause> "master control program"
15:45:04  <andythenorth> very doctor who
15:46:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it's actually from tron, but whatever
15:46:35  <Flygon> Y'know what'd be awesome
15:46:36  <Eddi|zuHause>
15:46:44  <Flygon> A Doctor Who-Tron-Star Trek crossover
15:46:57  <Flygon> Where the Ship's computer has gone nut
15:46:57  <Eddi|zuHause> a Doctor Tron Trek?
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15:53:38  <andythenorth>
15:53:43  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ :P
15:54:36  <Eddi|zuHause> ... right
15:55:49  <andythenorth> my python step is getting slow
15:55:52  <andythenorth> 14s
15:56:56  <peter1138> hmm, is it supported for station layouts to use tile layouts >= 8
15:56:57  <peter1138> ?
15:58:07  <peter1138> looks like it's not actually forbidden
15:59:01  <peter1138> only the newgrf spec says the tile must be 0, 2, 4 or 6
15:59:35  <peter1138> but as it's not enforced, you can actually use any value up to 255
15:59:52  <peter1138> which means that CB14 may not really be necessary in most cases
16:00:08  <peter1138> hmm
16:03:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never really understood this part of the specs
16:03:44  <peter1138> which bit?
16:03:53  <Eddi|zuHause> the station tile part
16:04:06  <peter1138> which bit of it? heh
16:05:20  <Stimrol> translation question, what are those --> STR_GOAL_QUESTION_BUTTON go and start and so on?
16:06:45  <Stimrol> and how can I get them to appear?
16:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: Gamescripts/Goalscripts may ask the player a question like "do you accept this task?"
16:10:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: possibly the tutorial script/scenario may use these, not sure
16:11:05  <Stimrol> Okey thanks, had never seen this button in the goal scripts. apperantly it has not been in the ones I have used, thanks :)
16:11:57  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, should BigGUI come with a bigger spritefont?
16:12:29  <peter1138> no
16:12:31  <peter1138> it's not supported
16:12:50  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the problem?
16:13:49  <peter1138> the height is a fixed value, not determined by the height of the sprite font
16:14:06  <Eddi|zuHause> but... why?
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16:16:07  <peter1138> nobody's done it?
16:16:29  <peter1138> interesting news though
16:17:34  <peter1138> remember stbr2.png?
16:18:35  <Rubidium> is that the stone bridge over the part of the railway station without the building?
16:18:42  <peter1138> yeah
16:18:48  <peter1138> well it doesn't glitch anymore
16:19:44  <Eddi|zuHause> spritesorting/boundingbox fix?
16:21:29  <peter1138> oops
16:21:43  <peter1138> i built a bridge through one of mb's glass canopies
16:22:57  <Rubidium> what? didn't he set the right object property right?
16:23:14  <peter1138> the one that doesn't exist? no
16:24:16  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: png or it didn't happen! :p
16:24:17  <peter1138> tell you what though
16:24:26  <peter1138> the gantry on that default waypoint is bloody high
16:26:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i mostly need bridges over tram/bus stations
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16:30:47  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and stations on bridgeheads :p
16:31:30  <Eddi|zuHause> station on bridgehead, signal on bridge, junction on other bridgehead: epicly compact city station!!
16:31:30  <peter1138> well
16:32:05  <peter1138> or should i say
16:32:05  <peter1138> hmm
16:33:51  <Eddi|zuHause> only further improvement beyond that would be: station on bridge/bridgehead, signal inbetween tiles, junction on bridge/bridgehead
16:34:14  <Eddi|zuHause> but signals inbetween tiles is a major savegame conversion headache
16:34:33  <Eddi|zuHause> also waypoints need to be inbetween tiles
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16:35:38  <peter1138> waypoints are full on station tiles these days
16:36:20  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but they occupy a full tile and can't be on diagonals -> they are awkward to place in tight spaces
16:37:05  <peter1138> pfft
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16:37:32  <peter1138> q
16:37:50  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: stations of bridgeheads are 'easy'. Level road crossing on bridge head... that's going to get interesting
16:38:15  <peter1138> interestingly waypoints are stations in the code and spec
16:38:21  <peter1138> but they're built by different routines
16:39:05  <peter1138> notably CBID_STATION_TILE_LAYOUT is't called
16:39:48  <peter1138> *isn't
16:39:54  <peter1138> and availability isn't tested
16:40:16  <Eddi|zuHause> there was something totally awkward with track reservation if you tried to sort trains on platforms via waypoints. the pathfinder would not consider the platform occupancy, so the train was stuck waiting for free path, because it wouldn't consider the empty platform as "shortest" path
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16:44:20  <peter1138> NOT_REACHED() is a noop on release builds, right?
16:44:22  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem was that the pathfinder quit after reaching the waypoint tile, but the track reservation continued until the next signal
16:44:32  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: yes, should be
16:44:52  <peter1138> how can the track reversation continue if the PF quit?
16:45:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the reservation has a special mode where it just randomly continues until it finds a signal
16:45:24  <Stimrol> Is it a error that one ship depot is counted as 4 tiles
16:45:31  <Stimrol> in the infrastructure
16:45:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: no, that's intended
16:46:16  <Stimrol> is it so it costs more then?
16:46:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: like a switch is counted as 4 tiles, and a 3-way switch is more like 9 tiles or so
16:46:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: yes, that's the intention
16:46:36  <Stimrol> ok nice
16:48:09  <Stimrol> thanks
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16:51:48  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: It's not random, it does search for the proper destination, but it will only do that for the best first section, not all possible first sections.
16:53:01  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: right, but the point was, it doesn't do that for the pathfinder, so the train got stuck waiting for free platform when another platform was available
16:54:07  <peter1138> the reservation randomly continues?
16:56:09  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: it tries to figure out what the next stop is
16:56:57  <Eddi|zuHause>,%2027.%20Dez%201930.png <-- this was the situation
16:57:53  <Eddi|zuHause> the train wants to go to the goods waypoint, but it won't choose the third platform, because the occupied-platform penalties are not counted
16:58:44  <supermop> hey eddi
16:59:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i think that was a CargoD_e_st savegame
16:59:17  <supermop> reading you string of posts about double tracks in the dutch stations thread
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16:59:45  <supermop> what would make more sense would be just drastically breaking the scales of everything
17:00:23  <Eddi|zuHause> as if scales aren't already broken enough?
17:00:26  <supermop> draw a track on a tile so that it takes up most of the full tile, etc, making everything bigger, things glitching
17:00:32  <supermop> etc etc
17:00:35  <supermop> hehe
17:00:36  <Eddi|zuHause> and since one does "one post" constitute a "string"?
17:00:49  <Eddi|zuHause> *since when
17:01:05  <supermop> oh whoops
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17:02:49  <peter1138> there was some guy who advocated multiple tracks on a tile a while back
17:03:07  <supermop> well you'd have to ignore any compatibility with other grfs, but if one dedicated soul chose to play with an entire ecosystem of consistently out of scale sprites it could work
17:03:36  <supermop> and have the dedication to make all his bridges two levels off the ground instead of one
17:04:15  <supermop> actually lets say three, be cause that guy probably wants his bridge decks to be 8 pixels thick anyway
17:04:19  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- anyway, i counted 15 trackbits on that tile, plus 1 bit for the orientation, plus one bit for switching the current single-track-layout to this one
17:05:01  <Eddi|zuHause> and then the reservation and movement pattern problems
17:05:13  <Eddi|zuHause> and when you are allowed to place signals where
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17:10:40  <Stimrol> {WHITE}{1:CURRENCY_LONG}/yr ({0:COMMA}) -- does /yr mean per year so I could translate it to per year?
17:13:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
17:13:39  <Eddi|zuHause> but i think the official symbol should be "/a"
17:14:37  <Eddi|zuHause> (a for "anno")
17:16:40  <Stimrol> could be, but I am no english speaker so I could not be sure. I just thougt that it would fit better for my language to say "per year" instead of /yr or the same for my language
17:17:08  <peter1138> as "anno" isn't an english word, that wouldn't make sense
17:17:20  <peter1138> annum, perhaps
17:17:39  <peter1138> but "/a" is just asking for "wtf is /a?"
17:18:25  <Eddi|zuHause> using "per anno" or "p.a." is rather common in german
17:18:36  <peter1138> it's "per annum" in english
17:19:07  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe germans are just failing at latin, anyway :)
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17:21:22  <Stimrol> found this for abbrevations -->
17:21:50  <Stimrol> it is p.a. in english according to this
17:22:26  <Stimrol> so I should maybe file a bug or just leave it be :)
17:22:31  <Pinkbeast> I would not use p.a. other than in a formal context where the meaning could be inferred.
17:22:54  <Pinkbeast>  /yr would be a much more obvious expression to use.
17:23:54  <peter1138> yeah, let's use /yr
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17:25:42  <Eddi|zuHause>
17:25:58  <Eddi|zuHause> gives "a, y or yr"
17:26:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it's on wikipedia, it must be true
17:28:35  <Rubidium> but *only* if someone that is not related to the subject has written that about it
17:31:15  <Stimrol> I would love if my university would consider wikipedia a valid source :)
17:33:19  <Rubidium> Stimrol: those wiki pages are littered with sources, so just use those in your papers instead
17:34:06  <Rubidium> esp. useful if they are archaic books ;)
17:34:12  <Stimrol> true, that is what I would do :)
17:34:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: make sure you rephrase things in your own words, because it's pretty obvios when reading that a paragraph is just copy-pasted from wikipedia
17:34:41  <Stimrol> also true
17:37:56  <Stimrol> ubs I chrashed citybuilder GS while using it along translation, don't know how
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17:51:24  <NGC3982-2> Evening.
17:51:35  <Alberth> evenink
17:51:53  <NGC3982-2> What's up? :)
17:52:11  <Alberth> it's Saturday evening
17:53:19  <NGC3982-2> O'rly.
17:53:43  <NGC3982-2> I took quiet some time, but i think i have actually managed to administrate a >1024^2 ECS game.
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17:57:04  <NGC3982-2> And that's about what i can handle.
17:57:15  <NGC3982-2> It works badly, but it seems to ..not go bancrupt.
17:57:47  <NGC3982-2>
17:57:49  <NGC3982-2> For instance.
17:57:49  <NGC3982-2> :D
17:58:22  <Alberth> oh dear, bidirectional everywhere?
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18:00:49  <NGC3982-2> I don't even have a clue what general direction the trains in that intersection uses
18:01:02  <NGC3982-2> i just put it there whilst in panic.
18:01:43  <peter1138> i use bidi everywhere
18:02:00  <peter1138> not with layouts like that though
18:02:13  <Alberth> and your trains don't go in weird directions constantly? :o
18:02:31  <NGC3982-2> Some trains needs to go both ways in that section
18:02:46  *** dot__ [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
18:02:47  <NGC3982-2> so i used bidirectional. Though, i almost never use that otherwise.
18:03:02  <Alberth> sounds like no signal would be better than :p
18:03:20  <NGC3982-2> There are very few instances where a few extra lines of rail and one-ways doesn't pay off.
18:03:21  <NGC3982-2> Hehe
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18:07:34  <Alberth> especially early in the game I often have a piece one bi-directional track when there is no room for a second track (I try to minimize terraforming and removing houses etc)
18:08:07  <Alberth> or when there are only a few trains running at the tracks
18:10:35  <NGC3982-2> That's why i used it here
18:10:37  <peter1138> oh bah
18:10:55  <peter1138> so allowing to build bridges over stations is easy
18:10:58  <NGC3982-2> Since early ECS and limited resources made terraforming and removing stuff expencive.
18:11:03  <peter1138> allowing to build stations under bridges, not so
18:12:43  <michi_cc> peter1138: Why's that? End result is the same isn't it?
18:15:02  <peter1138> code-wise it's way more complex
18:15:07  <peter1138> but not impossible
18:15:24  <Stimrol> where can you change speed of ocean, there is translation for that?
18:17:22  <Alberth> speed of ocean?
18:18:05  <peter1138> heh
18:18:11  <peter1138> what's the text?
18:19:46  <Stimrol> {BLACK}Speed on ocean: {GOLD}{VELOCITY}
18:20:02  <Stimrol> maybe this is a setting that can be made availible for newgrfs ships
18:20:03  <peter1138> that's the speed of a ship when it's on an ocean tile
18:20:26  <peter1138> yes, default ships don't differentiate iirc
18:20:51  <Stimrol> FISH dont either it seems
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18:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause> at least it was discussed once that FISH should make such distinctions
18:22:58  <peter1138> FISH 2 does
18:29:00  <Stimrol> thanks peter, found it :)
18:46:32  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24887 /trunk/src/lang (13 files) (2013-01-05 18:46:13 UTC)
18:46:33  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:34  <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 1 changes by chenwt0315
18:46:35  <DorpsGek> danish - 13 changes by Elias
18:46:36  <DorpsGek> esperanto - 25 changes by ernie13
18:46:37  <DorpsGek> greek - 1 changes by Rubidium
18:46:38  <DorpsGek> hebrew - 19 changes by naf869
18:46:39  <DorpsGek> icelandic - 109 changes by Stimrol
18:46:40  <DorpsGek> indonesian - 26 changes by H2
18:46:41  <DorpsGek> korean - 6 changes by telk5093
18:46:42  <DorpsGek> luxembourgish - 25 changes by Phreeze
18:46:43  <DorpsGek> polish - 2 changes by wojteks86
18:46:44  <DorpsGek> serbian - 5 changes by voodoo84
18:46:45  <DorpsGek> swedish - 16 changes by spacejens
18:46:46  <DorpsGek> turkish - 17 changes by kutzun
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18:52:11  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24888 trunk/src/lang/icelandic.txt (2013-01-05 18:52:05 UTC)
18:52:12  <DorpsGek> -Fix: broken language file
18:54:10  <Eddi|zuHause> new series of "failure to validate language file"?
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18:56:13  <Stimrol> how can I fix that?
18:56:18  <Stimrol> or find what is broken
18:56:49  <frosch123> -STR_TOWN_VIEW_CARGO_FOR_TOWNGROWTH_DELIVERED_GENERAL            :{ORANGE}{STRING}{GREEN} {G kominn komin komið}
18:57:00  <frosch123> what string would the gender refer to?
18:57:13  <Stimrol> Ahh this was a test with gender, let me fix it back
18:57:16  <frosch123> maybe you would have needed {G 0 kominn komin komið}
18:57:40  <frosch123> as the helptext says, {G} refers to the next string parameter
18:57:43  <frosch123> but here it is at the end
18:59:26  <Stimrol> does it auto change back?
18:59:36  <Stimrol> so the error is gone?
18:59:44  <frosch123> rb changed it
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19:00:20  <Stimrol> is it okay if I try this again with your sugestion {G 0 ...
19:00:32  <frosch123> no idea what you try to do :)
19:01:31  <Stimrol> probably wont work, because I was trying testing if there was a gender on cargo that could be used
19:02:36  <Stimrol> because water and food is not the same gender
19:02:53  <Rubidium> oh... missed the {STRING} in there. Yesterday (or at least this week) there were a couple of :{COLOUR}{G x y z} strings in some language (where cases should've been used). Thought this was one as well
19:04:23  <michi_cc> Stimrol: It should work as long as you also set a gender for the cargo strings.
19:05:52  <Stimrol> how do I set a gender for cargo instead of like change something because the gender is female?
19:06:30  <frosch123> you select it in the dropdown left of the string
19:06:36  <frosch123> (iirc)
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19:07:11  <Eddi|zuHause> you put "{G=f}cargo name", and then "{CARGO} {G bla-m bla-f}" into the other strings
19:07:22  <frosch123> not in wt3 afaik :)
19:07:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i never used wt3 :)
19:08:23  <Stimrol> would be interesting to try this
19:09:06  <Stimrol> so then the other one would be like this {G 0 kominn komin komið}
19:09:29  <Stimrol> I was thinking of water and food in the desert when I did this
19:09:42  <frosch123> yes, if the string with the gender is the first parameter in the string
19:11:01  <peter1138> er. whoops...
19:12:47  <peter1138>
19:12:51  <peter1138> not quite right
19:13:10  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :p
19:13:16  <frosch123> better than in the other direction
19:13:22  <peter1138> hehe
19:13:35  <peter1138> it's cos bridges go higher than the highest tile height. oh well
19:14:30  <Stimrol> the final string is then "Vatn komið" because water in icelandic is non-gender and "Matur kominn" because food is male gender
19:14:40  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: just make 0 mean "no bridge allowed"?
19:15:03  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, then i need to add a load more tests for 0
19:15:09  <frosch123> Stimrol: you need to set the gender in the "Vatn" and "Matur" strings then
19:15:21  <frosch123> using the dropdown on the left of the translation
19:15:31  <frosch123> "All" means no gender for some reason only tb knows
19:15:42  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: also consider more-heightlevels-patch (although i vaguely remember that it put a max bridge height in somewhere)
19:16:01  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, that's precisely why i'm using MAX_TILE_HEIGHT
19:16:14  <peter1138> but + 2 is needed, not + 1
19:16:36  <Stimrol> frosch123, then that would be "{G=m}matur"
19:16:57  <Stimrol> I tryed the dropdown and that always autochanged back for everything
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19:17:14  <frosch123> also when you click on save?
19:17:29  *** Superuser [] has quit []
19:17:31  <Stimrol> yes did that when I was trying this for delivered
19:21:00  <frosch123> Stimrol: works for me, i changed STR_QUANTITY_FOOD to karlkyn
19:21:08  <frosch123> selected in dropdown, pressed save
19:21:56  <frosch123> ah, while it displays a dropdown for editing, the history at the bottom does indeed say "{G=karlkyn}"
19:22:12  <Stimrol> ok now I understand, I used it like save for each, of course
19:22:48  <Stimrol> but should be {G=m}
19:23:01  <frosch123> no idea which of those is m :)
19:23:16  <frosch123> "karlkyn" "kvenkyn" "hvorugkyn" are my chioces :)
19:23:28  <Stimrol> that meand m, f, n
19:23:47  <Eddi|zuHause> "##gender karlkyn kvenkyn hvorugkyn" <-- so no "m f n" available
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19:25:04  <dadymax> Hello all. I just want to post link to tt-forums and ask what you (great all :) ) think about
19:25:04  <dadymax>
19:25:08  <Stimrol> but will it have an error in the file, because there is nothing the openttd only know what m,f,n means, not karlkyn,kvenkyn,hvorugkyn
19:25:35  <Eddi|zuHause> openttd will know whatever is in the ##gender line, nothing else
19:26:21  <frosch123> <- so Eddi knows what we talk about :)
19:26:27  <Stimrol> because {G=karlkyn} makes no sense for openttd while {G=m} does
19:26:40  <dadymax> and another question: what IRC client is good novadays? I use mirc 10 years ago but maybe something better created? )
19:27:04  <frosch123> Stimrol: no, ottd does not know about "m", "f" or "n"
19:27:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: i think you have a misunderstanding of how it works internally
19:27:18  <frosch123> ottd knows about 0, 1, 2, 3 and such :)
19:27:45  <peter1138> what about strgen?
19:27:57  <Stimrol> then it wil know that both {g=m} and g=karlkyn both are 0
19:28:06  <frosch123> there is no "m"
19:28:17  <frosch123> every language has a number of genders
19:28:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: no it will not, because there's no "m" in "##genders" for icelandig
19:28:24  <frosch123> it does not matter what they are called to ottd
19:29:27  <peter1138> has someone translated male/female/neuter?
19:30:00  <frosch123> also various languages use gender for non-gendery stuff :)
19:30:09  <Eddi|zuHause>
19:30:11  <frosch123> i believe german and french have a plural gender or so
19:30:16  <Stimrol> I am talking about the way you write it, the history show {G=karlkyn} if I was writing english the history would show {G=m}, just was a little worried that it would make error
19:30:19  <peter1138> catalan.txt:##gender Masculin Femenin
19:30:21  <peter1138> croatian.txt:##gender male female middle
19:30:23  <peter1138> norwegian_bokmal.txt:##gender masculine feminine neuter
19:30:25  <peter1138> serbian.txt:##gender muški şenski srednji
19:30:28  <peter1138> dear oh dear!
19:30:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: no, that is correct
19:30:59  <peter1138> icelandic.txt:##gender karlkyn kvenkyn hvorugkyn
19:31:01  <peter1138> but yeah
19:31:10  <peter1138> because that line has those labels, you need to use them
19:31:33  <Eddi|zuHause> src/lang/czech.txt:##gender m f n map mnp fp np <-- not sure how many genders you can have in total :p
19:31:58  <Stimrol> I think some language have more than 3 :)
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19:32:13  <Stimrol> but thanks folks, I am going to try this
19:32:17  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, czech apparently has 7 :)
19:33:19  <Eddi|zuHause> and afrikaans has only "male" gender? how does that work :)
19:33:31  <peter1138> most of the time i only see these genders set up in the header
19:33:40  <peter1138> never actually in any translation
19:34:17  <Stimrol> one side track, I see that the translation is r24887, but download on openttd is r24886 why is that?
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19:34:40  <peter1138> czech only uses f, fp, m and n
19:34:52  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i added the "plural" gender to german, and genders in general to the FIRS translation, because the malformed industry creation messages drove me crazy
19:35:23  <peter1138> Stimrol, try again, you'll get 24888
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19:36:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: it takes some time until the nightly compilation run finished
19:36:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: it doesn't compile for every version
19:37:27  <Stimrol> thanks again, worked
19:37:52  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone reviewed the german translation for TaI yet?
19:38:40  <Stimrol> and while I am at it, I am still missing Ubuntu 12.10 for the stable one in the download menu :)
19:39:02  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody uses that :p
19:39:11  <frosch123> Stimrol: is it available for the beta?
19:39:51  <frosch123> oh, i guess the 12.x will do
19:39:52  <Stimrol> no
19:40:08  <frosch123> you mean 12.10 is more like 13.x ? :p
19:40:44  <Stimrol> I always get an error while installing the deb file for 12.4 so I have to use the .tar one
19:40:46  <Stimrol> :)
19:43:03  <andythenorth> herp
19:43:04  <andythenorth> so
19:43:13  <andythenorth> no pokka
19:43:54  <Stimrol> call the ambulance andythenorth north is gone crazy
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19:46:48  <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe a bit early :)
19:47:32  <andythenorth> good point
19:48:09  <andythenorth> frosch123: got any new specs to read?
19:48:23  <frosch123> not yet
19:58:33  * andythenorth works on a port in that case
20:01:14  *** Pensacola [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:01:40  <NGC3982-2> Jazz and ECS goes together like lesbians and beer.
20:05:15  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:15:07  *** drac_boy [] has joined #openttd
20:15:10  <drac_boy> hi
20:20:20  <andythenorth> ho
20:20:26  * andythenorth plays with peter1138's server
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20:23:19  <drac_boy> is the lumber mill's tree removal behaviour fixed or can you vary its radius and clearcutting speed?
20:25:02  *** valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
20:25:34  <frosch123> you can slow the cutting speed
20:25:37  <frosch123> rest is fixed
20:26:11  <frosch123> you can make it cut trees only in october and such :p
20:27:46  <drac_boy> heh seasonal cutting? hmm interesting
20:28:03  <drac_boy> thanks
20:28:33  <frosch123> well, usually seasonal stuff is crappy for gameplay :p
20:30:25  <drac_boy> depends how you make it I guess
20:30:37  <andythenorth> rails have a clearance value, tram tracks don't :P
20:30:50  <Stimrol> in translation, when is CARGO_SINGULAR used?
20:30:53  <drac_boy> if its an indstry that still goes on a slow scale (eg logging still happens during wet spring but only very close by) thats still ok for gameplay...
20:31:06  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think either of these do
20:31:14  <drac_boy> but for something like wheat crops it indeed would not work because you only get a lot of it one or two months per year!
20:31:15  <Stimrol> acceptes, and require both use CARGO_PLURAL
20:31:17  <andythenorth> rals do
20:31:20  <andythenorth> rails *
20:31:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: where?
20:31:33  <andythenorth> whenever removing track
20:31:37  <andythenorth> it's a source of income
20:31:38  <drac_boy> I never liked some of the custom (even FIRS) vectors for this exact reason
20:31:47  <andythenorth> useful when losing by some small amount
20:31:48  <drac_boy> what you think of what I said frosch123?
20:31:54  <andythenorth> drac_boy: wtf are you talking about?
20:31:55  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, i misunderstood your word "clearance" then
20:32:31  <andythenorth> clearance / removal /s
20:32:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, because trams are treated internally as roads, and nobody bothered to allow making the cost negative or so
20:32:35  <andythenorth> sorry
20:32:43  <andythenorth> funny that :)
20:32:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i understood "clearance" as "height restriction"
20:33:11  <andythenorth> silly language I was born with
20:33:14  <andythenorth> born into
20:33:28  <andythenorth> drac_boy: are you reporting a FIRS bug?
20:33:48  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe "clearing value" might have been a more correct word, but i don't think i understand your language better than you do :p
20:33:52  <drac_boy> no..just talking to frosch :p
20:35:09  <Alberth> probably 1 diamond  versus  more diamonds
20:35:23  <andythenorth> drac_boy: sounded like a bug to me
20:35:26  <andythenorth> broken production
20:35:36  <drac_boy> andythenorth actually its standard
20:35:37  <andythenorth> can you reproduce it ?
20:35:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: "1 Passenger" vs "2 Passengers"
20:36:03  <drac_boy> industry produces zero dring winter and spring .. produce some during summer then goes dead again... but that seem to be alike to the real industry counterpart after all
20:36:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: "1 crate of goods" vs "2 crates of goods"
20:36:10  <drac_boy> dring=during*
20:36:10  <Stimrol> Alberth, then they would just use {P "" s} not a whole string for it
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20:36:37  <andythenorth> drac_boy: that is definitely a bug
20:36:38  <peter1138> Stimrol, there's no number
20:36:46  <drac_boy> but anyway that was only part of the actual topic
20:36:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: no, because the order of evaluation is backwards
20:36:50  <andythenorth> would you mind posting a savegame in the FIRS development thread?
20:36:56  <andythenorth> that's a serious bug
20:37:00  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: that's not it I fear
20:37:02  <drac_boy> andythenorth what did I said? I'm only talking to frosch
20:37:15  <Rubidium> singular seems to be only used in the subsidy window
20:37:16  <andythenorth> yes but it would be helpful to fix this
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20:37:51  <drac_boy> you also fix ecs and pbi too?  :P
20:37:53  <drac_boy> heh
20:38:09  <andythenorth> no
20:38:14  <andythenorth> but I can fix FIRS
20:38:34  <peter1138> Rubidium, got to love hysterical raisins
20:40:02  <Rubidium> the singular form seems to be used in subsidy news only
20:40:36  <Rubidium> (award and creation only)
20:41:09  <drac_boy> btw stimrol how're you anyway?
20:41:16  <Stimrol> I am fine of course
20:41:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i think i remember the wording of these things completely wrong then
20:41:40  <peter1138> First {passenger} service from ...
20:42:00  <peter1138> it's because it uses the word "service"
20:42:02  <drac_boy> nice
20:43:00  <Stimrol> thanks Eddi|zuHause and Rubidium
20:44:04  <andythenorth> peter1138: you're recently beating pikka and scuddles in this game you're not playing ;)
20:44:22  <peter1138> cool
20:44:46  <peter1138> hmm, so
20:44:49  <drac_boy> heh
20:44:52  <peter1138> TILE_AREA_LOOP
20:46:02  <andythenorth> drac_boy: any joy reproducing that bug? :(
20:46:37  <drac_boy> andythenorth no idea will have to check a random singleplayer game on other computer when I feel like it
20:46:50  <andythenorth> ok thanks
20:48:02  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: trying to implement a 60+ variable for "number of water tiles in <radius>?
20:48:28  <peter1138> no
20:55:32  <Rubidium> peter1138: I'd implement it in the T-Ford colour selection method ;)
20:56:01  <Rubidium> it can be any radius, as long as the radius is 0!
20:56:12  <peter1138> would you?
20:56:15  <peter1138> go on then
20:56:20  <peter1138> cos i'm not doing anything liek that :)
20:57:30  <peter1138> might be easier to loop through the station layout separately :S
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20:59:42  <andythenorth> pinky ponk!
21:01:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i wanted to ask you about TaI and german translation
21:01:33  <Pikka> the industries, eddi?
21:01:49  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, mostly those
21:02:12  <Eddi|zuHause> because back in PBI times, the "industry opens" messages annoyed me really badly
21:02:32  <Eddi|zuHause> because all the genders were wrong
21:02:45  <Pikka> the whole grf is being redone from scratch, I'll send you the texts when I have some and you can translate them for me :)
21:02:49  <Eddi|zuHause> and nowadays, NewGRF translations support genders
21:03:17  <Eddi|zuHause> it needs some magical gender translation table and stuff
21:03:44  *** aaa [] has joined #openttd
21:04:02  <aaa> 1
21:04:13  <Eddi|zuHause> 42
21:04:50  <aaa> I need flash version of this game
21:04:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: you're still on nfo?
21:04:56  <drac_boy> why aaa?
21:04:59  <__ln__> no you don't
21:05:02  <aaa> :)
21:05:21  <Pikka> yes eddi
21:05:29  <aaa> To run it on my web
21:05:43  <drac_boy> aaa what makes you think a *desktop* game with libs can suddenly run online silly
21:05:45  <drac_boy> :)
21:06:09  <Zuu> There is a javascript version, but it is quite slow.
21:06:17  *** aaa [] has quit []
21:06:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess that settles that :p
21:08:00  *** Flygon [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:09:12  <andythenorth> Pikka: TaI looks good on that server game we had with peterer
21:09:23  <andythenorth> after 100 years or whatever
21:09:43  <Pikka> the towns?  yes, I think they're notbad
21:10:00  <Pikka> pubbegone needs to be even more aggressive though :)  and/or have more variants
21:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: here's some of the magic that later got into FIRS to support genders:
21:10:55  <andythenorth> Pikka: a lot of the roadtype combinatorial graphics crap could be composited at compile time btw
21:11:10  <andythenorth> a standardised spritesheet would be useful...
21:11:14  <Pikka> sure, if you're into that sort of thing
21:11:27  <Pikka> like I said, it's iterative... it sounds like a lot of sprites but it really isn't
21:11:51  <andythenorth> I drew trails once, it's not a lot
21:12:10  <andythenorth> if spritegroups could be used for the drawing, combinatorial crap could be done at run time
21:13:18  <andythenorth> hrm trails is 18 sprites, including turny-roundy-loop nonsenses
21:13:28  <St3f> i installed the debian squeeze openttd but i can't find the openttd.cfg, do i have to make it manually?
21:13:49  * andythenorth needs to put the Paper cargo back into FIRS
21:13:53  <andythenorth> what larks
21:13:59  <drac_boy> st3f..they moved it out of the folder for some reason I don't afaik yes you do have to make one yourself
21:14:07  <St3f> ok tnx :p
21:14:12  <Sacro>
21:14:15  <Rubidium> drac_boy: what makes you think that?
21:14:16  <Eddi|zuHause> St3f: openttd.cfg will be created once you exit normally
21:14:20  <Sacro> gpl violation?
21:14:43  <andythenorth> debatable
21:14:52  <drac_boy> Rubidium the fact that its not even anywhere to be found without having created it yourself
21:14:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: please, do go ahead and discuss copyright with a russian :)
21:15:05  <peter1138> drac_boy, that's not a fact
21:15:13  <peter1138> drac_boy, that's a "you didn't look in the right place"
21:15:19  <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: yeeeeeeeeah
21:15:24  <Sacro> good point
21:15:29  <drac_boy> peter1138 no? so why did I install openttd through the package thing then?
21:15:35  <Sacro> could be zodttd again
21:15:42  <drac_boy> so..the folder is actually right there
21:15:54  <andythenorth> can't tell how much of the game gets distributed to my hangs my web dev tools :P
21:16:02  <drac_boy> heh
21:16:18  <andythenorth> I assume the entire JS runtime and the graphics are distributed, so...yeah GPL violation
21:16:24  *** Zeknurn [] has joined #openttd
21:17:12  <Sacro> though if it's js...
21:17:17  <Sacro> then surely you do get the code
21:17:24  <Sacro> or it doesn't violate as its not agpl
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21:17:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: that's not actually true, because the js-code is autogenerated, you need to distribute the code that it is autogenerated from
21:17:54  <andythenorth> I think it violates GPL
21:18:13  <andythenorth> code's on github though
21:18:19  <andythenorth> he could do it right, if he was interested
21:18:29  <peter1138> on windows, if you used the installer, it'll be under C:\Users\<username>\Documents\OpenTTD\
21:18:37  <peter1138> (or whereever your user folder is)
21:18:49  <andythenorth>
21:19:06  <andythenorth>
21:19:23  <drac_boy> why is a game installed to a document folder? 0_o
21:19:54  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: it is not.
21:20:06  <peter1138> drac_boy, that game isn't
21:20:07  <drac_boy> then how come he pretty much mentioned it btw?
21:20:11  <peter1138> drac_boy, your USERDATA is
21:21:09  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: pretty much every game in the last 15 years puts its savegame and config files into Documents\blah
21:21:39  <drac_boy> sounds like a field day for backup softwares when they can't find the full app from its own folder -_-
21:21:46  <drac_boy> but whatever
21:22:11  <peter1138> user data should never with stored with the program itself
21:22:26  <andythenorth> this is hardly controversial
21:22:31  <peter1138> that's what causes issues with permissions
21:22:57  <andythenorth> sounds like bad backup software
21:22:58  <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: a backup software that doesn't back up your documents folder you should throw into the garbage bin
21:23:01  <andythenorth> mine handles it fine
21:23:05  <peter1138> yeah
21:23:08  <drac_boy> andythenorth its a popular one actually...on both win+linux
21:23:17  <andythenorth> [shrug]
21:23:26  <andythenorth> proof that the world is not short of idiots?
21:23:45  <peter1138> what backup software is that?
21:24:03  <drac_boy> firefox perhaps is idiots if that was the case then? heh. mind you I never liked it much mainly for its instable resource management
21:24:31  <Eddi|zuHause> ECoherencyAlert
21:25:01  <peter1138> indeed, in other words, what?
21:25:21  <andythenorth> or eh?
21:25:24  <andythenorth> for brevity
21:26:01  <peter1138> of course, there is the split between Documents and Application\ Data
21:26:14  <peter1138> but they're still in the user dictory
21:26:15  <peter1138> er
21:26:16  <peter1138> directory
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21:29:12  <andythenorth> hmm
21:29:21  <andythenorth> where paper is?
21:29:25  * andythenorth -> newgrf wiki :P
21:29:58  <planetmaker> evening everyone
21:29:59  <planetmaker> @logs
21:29:59  <DorpsGek> planetmaker:
21:30:02  <andythenorth> lo planetmaker
21:30:52  <andythenorth> hmm, I haven't coded cargos since 2008 :P
21:30:58  <andythenorth> I have forgotten a lot
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21:32:02  <Pikka> peter's not beating me, andy :)
21:32:40  <andythenorth> ah
21:33:04  <andythenorth> few of his charts were overlapping yours when I checked :P
21:33:48  * andythenorth needs a fright toob
21:33:50  <andythenorth> for mail
21:34:29  <peter1138> yeah
21:34:44  <Supercheese> whoah, neat
21:34:49  <andythenorth> woah
21:34:50  <andythenorth> etc
21:34:54  <drac_boy> know how that is -_-
21:35:36  <peter1138> < well that was kind of a bug
21:35:40  <drac_boy> heh peter1138 thats nice, crossing large stations in busy areas would be more interesting in multiplayer
21:35:41  <__ln__> yes, you press the green button and talk to the phone
21:35:53  <drac_boy> __ln__ button needed
21:37:08  <drac_boy> hmm peter1138 I guess that indeed is a bug. many planes have wings larger than the runaway width. ramming into the piers could be interesting
21:37:16  <drac_boy> heh
21:38:37  <Supercheese> Allow it anyway, maximum sandbox!  :P
21:38:41  <drac_boy> __ln__ do you have one? :)
21:39:24  <Supercheese> How many bridge slots are there anyway? To the wiki...
21:39:33  <drac_boy> supercheese as long as theres a parameter to disable it for the sake of players that don't want to see town bridges over their airport
21:39:57  * Supercheese was only half-serious
21:40:05  <Supercheese> oh pooh, can't do bridges in NML
21:40:07  <Supercheese> nevermind then
21:41:15  <andythenorth> peter1138: good pilots can handle bridges
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21:48:58  <planetmaker> hm, seems that ISR is going to be re-vived :)
21:51:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: 13 slots... obviously
21:51:05  <peter1138> ooh
21:51:10  <peter1138> with bridges over it ?
21:52:52  <drac_boy> planetmaker really?
21:53:31  <planetmaker> rumors, rumors. Voices in the wind ;-)
21:55:40  <drac_boy> heh
21:55:54  <drac_boy> well it could use some more specific industry tiles that has been missing for too long
21:56:07  <planetmaker> andythenorth, you solved your makefile issue?
21:56:12  <andythenorth> yes thanks
21:56:17  <andythenorth> search is my friend
21:56:20  <planetmaker> things work (again) as you need? And CF, too :-)
21:56:22  <planetmaker> good :D
21:56:22  <drac_boy> not to mention the lack of a platform to match wood unloading
21:56:34  <Eddi|zuHause> it could use showing cargo piles on average throughput, not current waiting
21:56:36  <drac_boy> and the generic empty raised platform tile doesn't seem right
21:56:39  <planetmaker> I heard rumors that FIRS compatibility is one of the first goals ;-)
21:56:47  <andythenorth> mart3p?
21:57:10  <peter1138> planetmaker's doing it himself
21:57:14  <drac_boy> eddi I rather prefer the latter, if the platforms seem full and theres no trains nearby I know I'm under-trafficed (for lack of word)
21:57:23  <peter1138> cos he has nothing better to do than mess with stations for years
21:57:26  <Eddi|zuHause> (my biggest feature request for ISR)
21:57:27  <drac_boy> no need to have to keep opening many station windows all the times
21:57:45  <Eddi|zuHause> (because there are all these neat cargo graphics, but they're never shown)
21:58:10  <peter1138> yeah you only see the stockpiled stuff
21:58:31  <andythenorth> the animations run ;)
21:58:31  <drac_boy> or...I guess it could be left to a parameter for either 0 (as default) original behaviour or 1 the other behaviour you wanted
21:58:39  <drac_boy> I don't know tbh :)
21:58:42  <andythenorth> some of those animations took a whole weekend to setup ;)
21:58:58  <planetmaker> eddi's right with the way to show cargo graphis :-)
21:59:34  <peter1138> that's easy to fix for every station
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21:59:41  <peter1138> the code is in ResolveStation()
22:00:03  <andythenorth> I only want to see cargo graphics when there's a problem
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22:00:12  <andythenorth> or at least, that's there gameplay purpose for me ;)
22:00:21  <andythenorth> FISH 2 needs a big fast catamarran
22:00:24  <peter1138> although in fact it appears to only show the first waiting cargo
22:00:27  <andythenorth> 600 PAX or so
22:00:47  <peter1138> so i guess the grf could be overriding that
22:01:30  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the tiles need some randomisation to represent mixed cargo stations better
22:01:52  <andythenorth> or build per cargo
22:01:55  <drac_boy> isn't it already randomized anyway?
22:01:57  <andythenorth> bit fiddly :P
22:02:14  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can't have "per cargo" if you have flexible amouts of cargos
22:02:37  <andythenorth> good point
22:02:40  <andythenorth> and it's a PITA
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22:02:49  <andythenorth> although there are cargo-specific tiles in ISR
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22:03:30  <peter1138> cargo specific tiles should be able to represent the cargo type, stockpile wise
22:03:41  <Eddi|zuHause> but you can have a "bulk pile" tile that displays "black pile", "orange pile", "grey pile" and randomly decides which one it's prefering over all others
22:03:49  <Pikka> the cargo specific tiles in ISR just go off the first cargo waiting
22:04:09  <Pikka> so if 3 bags of mail turn up at your station with 500 crates of goods, all the goods disappear off the platforms
22:04:22  <peter1138> you can make it go by total cargo waiting if you're doing something generic
22:04:57  <peter1138> Pikka, in that case the function i pointed out can "fix" that to pick the most waiting
22:05:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure it's just that somebody didn't bother implementing a more sophisticated check
22:05:11  <Pikka> yes
22:05:28  <Pikka> I'm saying that's a problem with ISR, not stations in general :)
22:05:57  <peter1138> not really, it's not ISRs fault that that is how openttd picks it
22:06:13  <peter1138> Do not skip an Action2 using Action9 (unless it skips the whole file). Action2 must not be skipped by Action9 or TTDPatch will most likely crash. Skip or modify Action3 instead. Skipping an Action2 with an Action7 has no effect.
22:06:17  <peter1138> hehe
22:06:20  <peter1138> i'm pretty sure that's all lies in openttd btw
22:06:44  <Pikka> still sounds like bad practice to me :P
22:07:03  <Pikka> if you're mucking with action 2 chains, do it with a var2, don't start sticking action 9s in
22:08:04  <peter1138> For vehicles (features 00 .. 03) and stations (feature 04)
22:08:05  <andythenorth> I found an exciting warning earlier that attempting to access 80+ vars from an industry tile will crash openttd
22:08:05  <peter1138> The cargo-type for which the set-ID applies.  If the item is built to use this type of cargo, or if it is refitted for it, the given set-ID is used as its graphics.
22:08:06  <andythenorth> :P
22:08:09  <peter1138> yeah
22:08:11  <peter1138> cos i always refit my stations...
22:08:32  <andythenorth> stations are in no way batshit crazy
22:08:42  <peter1138> crash?
22:08:47  <andythenorth> allegedly
22:08:56  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: NML makes sure you can't skip action2's anyway
22:08:57  <peter1138> according to whom?
22:09:12  <andythenorth> crash *TTD* ....misread
22:09:18  <andythenorth>
22:09:21  <peter1138> oh, that's likely
22:09:36  <peter1138> you'll just get an "errrrrr that's not supported" result in ottd
22:09:57  <andythenorth> one day the rest of the newgrf spec will be rewritten to be compliant with stations
22:10:02  <andythenorth> so that it all makes sense
22:10:11  <peter1138> it does make sense
22:10:16  <peter1138> to me
22:10:26  <peter1138> after spending about 3 years working on it, if not more
22:11:10  <peter1138> the early pre-me implementation of newgrf stations
22:11:11  <peter1138> what a laugh
22:12:05  <andythenorth> I want cargo little and cargo lots for my vehicles too
22:12:17  <andythenorth> much more fun
22:13:12  <frosch123> andythenorth: already present; it's called "road vehicle" and "ship"
22:13:35  <andythenorth> :)
22:13:53  <andythenorth> big ships are really hard to use
22:14:10  <andythenorth> try them with TaI, the industries all close before the ship has delivered :P
22:14:14  <andythenorth> FIRS outputs are too low
22:14:31  <peter1138> andythenorth, pfft
22:14:34  <andythenorth> and with cargo goal GS, they just take too long to deliver
22:15:00  <peter1138> andythenorth, consider station property 10 to be the thing that distinguishes between loading and loaded
22:15:07  <peter1138> they're exactly the same after that
22:15:40  * andythenorth grumbles at peter1138 being all reasonable
22:15:42  <peter1138> loading and moving, sorry
22:15:51  <peter1138> stations don't move, heh
22:16:49  <andythenorth> time for bed iggle piggle
22:16:55  <andythenorth> oops
22:16:58  <andythenorth> forgot to finish FIRS
22:17:00  <andythenorth> nvm
22:18:10  <andythenorth> bye
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22:22:26  <peter1138> ooh it crashed
22:30:11  <__ln__> anyone been to paris airshow?
22:30:48  <peter1138>
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22:35:27  <frosch123> +				return GetBridgeHeight(GetNorthernBridgeEnd(tile)) - GetTileMaxZ(tile); <- that's the same as GetBridgeHeightAboveGround, innit?
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22:38:20  <peter1138> oh, yes
22:40:20  <frosch123> hmm, don't you disallow construction of stations below bridges?
22:40:35  <frosch123> CheckBuildableTile seems to reject all bridges now
22:41:21  <peter1138> i removed the check from there
22:41:43  <peter1138> the check's moved to CheckFlatLand()
22:41:53  <frosch123> ah, the other hunk is already in another function
22:42:01  <peter1138> but as it's an svn diff you don't see the function in the hunk data
22:43:28  <peter1138> most of the changes are due to building station tiles under bridges :(
22:43:33  <frosch123> +				statspec->heights = (uint8 *)malloc(tiles) <- i guess ottd uses MAllocT or something like that
22:43:34  <peter1138> building bridges over station tiles was easy peasy
22:43:39  <peter1138> oh yeah
22:43:46  <peter1138> old style coding :p
22:43:47  <frosch123> :p
22:44:40  <frosch123> hmm... why do we still disallow trees :p
22:45:37  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: trees don't usually grow under bridges :p
22:46:01  <frosch123> trees even grow inside houses
22:46:43  <frosch123> peter1138: looks nice, but lacks a lot of doxygen :)
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22:58:16  <frosch123> night
22:58:19  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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23:08:39  <Terkhen> good night
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23:17:06  <drac_boy> hmm is one unit of wool supposed to weight the same as one passenger? I would had thought it would be lighter but apparently I guess you can't specify eg 0.4 or any decmical placement...or can you?
23:18:39  <peter1138> so how much wool is a unit of wool?
23:21:10  <__ln__> how much wool would a woolchuck chuck?
23:21:10  <drac_boy> good question, I haven't figured out yet how much amount of tightly packed wool would make up a hay bale package. I do know that its too easy to carry too much loose wool in your arms if you had wanted to heh heh
23:21:45  <drac_boy> __ln__ I believe that was actually wood as in woodchuck :) heh
23:23:08  <peter1138> well if it's wool
23:23:13  <peter1138> isn't not gonna be a hay bale
23:24:18  <Pikka>
23:24:26  <Pikka> these are 330kg each, apparently
23:25:02  <Pikka> but more traditional bales would only be about half as dense
23:25:09  <drac_boy> mm thats quite some thicker wool
23:25:52  <peter1138> no, it's just compacted to save space
23:27:38  <drac_boy> and apparently they don't always wrap it before pressing
23:29:22  <peter1138>
23:29:25  <peter1138> quite a lot on there
23:30:06  <drac_boy> indeed
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