Log for #openttd on 7th January 2013:
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08:05:03  <Flygon> Okay, well, according to Civilization II
08:05:13  <Flygon> By 900AD
08:05:32  <Flygon> There'll be Romans with Bronze Steam Trains, because they never discovered Iron Working
08:05:41  <Flygon> GRF plzkthx :P
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08:06:09  <Celestar> mowning
08:06:18  <Flygon> Morning Celestar
08:06:20  <Flygon> It's 900AD
08:06:26  <Flygon> And I've got Bronze Steam Trains
08:06:32  <Flygon> Apperantly the Romans never invented Iron
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08:20:22  <Flygon> Pffthahaha...
08:21:10  <Flygon> Refining... bringing about refining Bronze and Power Plants without discovering Electricity
08:21:22  <Flygon> Is Bronze even a refinable meta?
08:21:23  <Flygon> metal*
08:30:33  <TinoDidriksen> I'd say no, since it's an alloy of two already refined metals.
08:31:25  <Flygon> TinoDidriksen: It's official. Civilization II research makes no sense. Even when following the official tech tree.
08:31:38  <Flygon> Even more baffling, none of the AI have figured out Iron Working
08:33:34  <Flygon> By this point, I'm purposely avoiding it, for laughs
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09:27:26  <Terkhen> good morning
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09:36:53  <Celestar> yo
09:41:08  <planetmaker> moin
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09:54:38  <Flygon> Annnnd
09:54:43  <Flygon> I've finally broken the game
09:55:08  <Flygon> :D
09:56:18  <Flygon> Crud
09:56:25  <Flygon> Great Library FINALLY gives Iron Working
10:19:24  <Pinkbeast> I know that game, but it's not OTTD. :-)
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10:28:23  <dihedral> hello
10:34:26  <Terkhen> hi dihedral
10:39:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i think great library is one of the most imbalanced wonders in that game
10:41:55  <Flygon> Eddi: Nah. Pyramids.
10:42:17  <Flygon> Pyramids + City Sprawl = Ooooooooh yeah
10:51:56  <Pinkbeast> Which Civ are we on?
10:54:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: anyway, refining is about oil, why would you need iron for that? and especially electricity rather needs copper than iron
10:54:42  <Flygon> Eddi: Because it was about refining metal
10:55:21  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: II
10:55:32  <Eddi|zuHause> not entirely sure how the Civ2 techtree worked anyway
10:56:10  <Pinkbeast> I think the tech trees often assume some early tech is implicit - you can build Civ 4 battleships without Rifling, Artillery, or Steel (except I think one of those isn't true)
10:57:24  <Pinkbeast> And most of _Rocket_ is copper and wood, so why not steam railways without Iron Working, anyway?
10:58:06  <Eddi|zuHause> might have durability issues with copper rails ;)
10:58:32  <Eddi|zuHause> (or cost issues :p)
10:58:43  <Pinkbeast> Ahem, fair point. :-)
10:59:36  <Terkhen> what's the point of a battleship without artillery? is it going to wave white flags at the enemy?
11:00:24  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe they put normal cannons in them :p
11:01:55  <Pinkbeast> That would be the largely useless Ironclad that comes out with Steam Power
11:02:50  <Terkhen> oh, I assumed that "artillery" in english referred to both cannons and modern stuff :P
11:08:58  <Flygon> You can make wooden rail railways with Copper/Bronze locomotives
11:09:38  <Flygon> But it requires giant wheels (like a tyre-less car wheel), large logs, and you have a terrible speed and axle loading
11:10:14  <Terkhen> sounds like a fun ride
11:10:54  <Terkhen> are you planning to make a "I did not research iron working in Civilization II" train and railtype NewGRF?
11:11:16  <Flygon> No
11:11:17  <Flygon> :P
11:11:23  <planetmaker> wooden rails only
11:11:38  <Flygon> I do think wooden rails have potential, though
11:12:03  <Flygon> They were in regular use pre-1830s and around the 1880s to 1930s for logging railways, iirc...
11:12:41  * planetmaker ponders high-speed wood rails ;-)
11:13:11  <Flygon> Rubber tyres? :P
11:13:27  <Eddi|zuHause> there are wooden railways in use until today
11:13:43  <Flygon> That wouldn't surprise me
11:14:05  <Flygon> Heck, the Melbourne suburban network is way more wood than steel :B
11:14:35  <Flygon> Where do you park Diesel HST's? Why on 70 year old wooden sleepers, of course! :B
11:14:50  <Flygon> But, yeah, wooden railed railways...
11:15:07  <Flygon> Eddi: There's Diesel versions of wooden railway locomotives manufactured?
11:15:08  <Eddi|zuHause> wooden sleepers have advantages over concrete sleepers
11:15:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: sure, why not?
11:15:26  <Flygon> Easier switch manufacturing?
11:15:26  <planetmaker> yes. they have a bigger young's modulus
11:15:43  <planetmaker> and better temperature response
11:15:48  <Flygon> I'd have thought sleeperless or steel-sleepered track would be most sensible
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11:15:55  <Flygon> ...planetmaker
11:16:10  <Flygon> Wooden sleepers here are responsible for derailings in 40c+ temperatures
11:16:16  <Flygon> They have terrible temperature response
11:16:27  <Flygon> Hence, my comments about sleeperless or steel sleepers
11:16:33  <Flygon> Concrete is cool too :D
11:16:34  <planetmaker> it's the rails which have the bad response :-)
11:16:50  <planetmaker> concrete is harder, thus keeps on higher tension the expanding rails in place
11:17:21  <Flygon> planetmaker: Lemme rephrase that
11:17:22  <planetmaker> while wood would just allow more tension, thus more deformation.
11:17:31  <Flygon> We have very old wooden sleepers here
11:17:36  <planetmaker> s/tension/stress
11:17:41  <Eddi|zuHause> soo... civ2 still crashes in wine :/
11:17:49  <planetmaker> so does civ4, too
11:17:58  <Flygon> A Hitachi train derailed recently, because the weight of it ended up splitting some sleepers apartt
11:18:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never had problems with civ4
11:18:15  <planetmaker> it never worked for me :O
11:18:27  <Flygon> Eddi: I thought it worked?
11:18:28  <planetmaker> you need to walk me through that somewhen, Eddi|zuHause
11:18:39  <Flygon> CivII Classic or Multiplayer?
11:18:51  <Eddi|zuHause> classic i suppose
11:18:58  <Flygon> Hmmmmmm
11:19:07  <Terkhen> I've been playing to CivIV on wine for a month and I did not run into any problems either
11:19:18  <Flygon> Send me your units.gif
11:19:44  <Pinkbeast> Terkhen: It depends on context, could mean either, but in Civ 4 terms "Artillery" the unit is not cannon but more sophisticated rifled guns
11:20:19  <Pinkbeast> (just as there are lots of kinds of infantry, but "Infantry" is the 20-strength unit that replaces Riflemen)
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11:21:09  <Terkhen> I see, it's been too long since I played vanilla civ :P
11:25:40  <peter1138> http://imgur.com/gallery/QQmw9
11:25:42  <peter1138> new rail type!
11:30:02  <Flygon> Real men play Alpha Centauri
11:30:18  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i can't seem to run civ2 in my win3.1 installation (seems to miss some files, but it doesn't tell me which)
11:30:47  <Terkhen> I opened the SMAC mod for CivIV once, I did not understand anything at all about it
11:30:59  <Terkhen> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=32285 <--- that rail type has been suggested, there are patches at the forums :P
11:32:02  <Flygon> Terkhen: I mean actual SMACX
11:32:12  <Flygon> It's a very unique Civ
11:32:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: the civ4 mod misses out the unit designer :/
11:32:39  <Terkhen> and I'm implying that if I did not understand a somewhat modern mod, I cannot hope to understand the old, original game :P
11:33:03  <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: no idea, I got confused about the sheer amount of features that I did not understand and left :P
11:33:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i found it rather good in general :)
11:33:28  <Flygon> All SMACX is is just Civilization II on steriods
11:33:36  <Flygon> It even uses the same engine
11:33:58  <Flygon> Hotkeys take getting used to, though
11:34:10  <Flygon> I keep pressing F in Civ II for Farm... and I end up building a Fortress
11:36:20  <Eddi|zuHause> http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Bildschirmfoto15.png
11:37:31  <Flygon> That isn't SMAC
11:37:36  <Flygon> It lacks 3D isometric heightmaps
11:37:39  <Flygon> D:
11:38:28  <Eddi|zuHause> no, but it's a crazily huge city in the middle of ice :p
11:38:58  <Flygon> That's what game mods are for :B
11:39:45  <Eddi|zuHause> there was some wonder like "+2 food per doctor in this city, +2 food per great doctor in this city, +1 food per doctor in every city" or so
11:40:44  <Flygon> In base SMAC?
11:40:56  <Eddi|zuHause> no, in this Civ4 mod
11:41:04  <Flygon> Oh
11:41:05  <Flygon> I see
11:41:35  <Pinkbeast> What I always remembered about SMAC was that commerce was now "energy", with higher tiles producing more because they are closer to the sun. And half the units are nuclear-powered. Er.
11:41:56  <Flygon> Actually
11:42:13  <Flygon> Units that were fuel powered happened
11:42:17  <Flygon> eg. Needlejets
11:42:33  <Flygon> But they still used reactors too
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11:43:58  <drac_boy> hi
11:44:07  <Flygon> drac_boy
11:44:11  <Flygon> Guess what
11:44:16  <Flygon> Something amazing happened
11:44:29  <Flygon> Something invigorating
11:44:41  <Flygon> My love life with Civilization and SMACX returned
11:44:46  <drac_boy> ?
11:44:49  <Pinkbeast> My point is that if you are routinely installing fusion plants in ordinary infantry you don't really care how close the top of the hill is to the sun
11:45:23  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: When you've first landed on planet, you're very lacking in fuel in a hostile environment
11:45:39  <Flygon> As much electricity as possible consumes as little fuel as  possible
11:45:42  <Pinkbeast> Except that even then every single unit you can build has a fission reactor in
11:45:56  <Pinkbeast> So obviously they are in fact cheap as dirt and this doesn't make a lick of sense
11:46:15  <Flygon> Life support?
11:46:55  <Flygon> Look, there's SOME gameplay-story segregation :P
11:47:18  <Flygon> Let's look at it this way
11:47:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: can you please decide whether you're talking about fusion or fission? they're, like, opposite things, you know.
11:47:40  <Flygon> It's clear that the economy early on works almost entirely with just base resources, no solar panels
11:47:47  <Pinkbeast> Eddi: every time I have used either of those words I have meant the one I used.
11:47:56  <Flygon> To me, this is indicative that they're using in-city Nuclear Reactors
11:48:26  <Pinkbeast> I just remember it because it was such a monstrous failure of suspension of disbelief.
11:48:29  <Flygon> Where Solar Panels/Sea Turbines and Boreholes are supplimental sources of energy
11:49:00  <Flygon> Or: Enough to ease the amount of work in-city plants have to work
11:49:13  <Flygon> The resources saved on those plants are beneficial for the economy
11:49:31  <Flygon> Enough energy and minerals ultimately supplants base power stations for energy supply
11:49:33  <Pinkbeast> Which would make perfect sense... if nuclear power was not so cheap as to routinely install it in all military and civilian units
11:49:58  <Flygon> I'm referring to fuel being expensive
11:50:12  <Pinkbeast> To which fuel specifically?
11:50:24  <Flygon> It's entirely feasable that they use a minimal amount of fuel (individual units, specifically)
11:50:30  <Flygon> Nuclear Fuel
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11:50:41  <Flygon> Y'know, plutonium, thorium
11:51:28  <Pinkbeast> So every unit has a teeny-tiny sliver of the stuff in? Hm.
11:51:41  <Pinkbeast> Neatly rationalised. :-)
11:51:57  <Flygon> Also, keep in mind
11:52:17  <Flygon> Early-game, just churning out units puts a huge load on your city's mineral support resources
11:52:59  <Flygon> Probably why Boreholes are so overpowering... a trivial resource for nuclear (and other... coal? :P) fuels
11:53:22  <Flygon> Also, the heat generated by the boreholes themselves also generate power
11:53:55  <Flygon> The only thing unscientific about Alpha Centauri is Supply Crawlers and the Borg faction (to an extent) :P
11:54:40  <Pinkbeast> Errr well this is a reasonable rationalisation but we are required to believe that all fissibles / fusibles / whatever the next two reactor technologies use is in extremely short supply
11:54:48  <Pinkbeast> ... well, and psi powers etc
11:55:11  <Flygon> Psi Powers is just the human's ability to withstand the terror of physical mindrape
11:55:28  <Flygon> A terrified human won't turn on the flamethrower
11:55:54  <Flygon> A battle-hardened Spartan dude will just stand there with a grin on his face and push the nozzle to full
11:56:09  <Pinkbeast> Again, nicely rationalised
11:56:23  <Flygon> And by the time you achive Fusion power, you generally have a very strong foothold
11:56:33  <Flygon> Or are very good at negotiating with more advanced factions
11:57:08  <Flygon> And by the time anybody achieves Quantum and Singularity reaction, it's very late-game, and you'll generally have planet-sprawling factions
11:57:39  <Flygon> Basically, it's easy to assume that the raw resources required are minable
11:57:43  <Flygon> Also, something to note
11:57:54  <Flygon> Meteorite mining tech is invented by then
11:58:19  <Flygon> Lacking enough, say, Titanium? Whack a mining probe up and launch it to a nearby meteor
11:59:18  <Pinkbeast> You're not helping the case here.
11:59:41  <Pinkbeast> If you can do that, the idea that the difference between the top of the hill and the bottom is significant in terms of solar power generation is clearly laughable.
12:00:05  <Flygon> That bit is story-and-gameplay segregation
12:00:08  <Flygon> Frankly, however
12:00:14  <Flygon> Any good player doesn't bother with solar panels
12:00:25  <Flygon> They have neglible power output, for the effort needed
12:00:34  <Flygon> It's faster to set up sea turbines and plant forests
12:00:55  <Flygon> And forests also = Minnerals
12:01:02  <Pinkbeast> But their output is still significant numbers of energy credits.
12:01:15  <Flygon> On their own? Yes
12:01:24  <Flygon> Compared to Boreholes, Forests, and Sea Turbines? No
12:01:33  <Pinkbeast> You don't build Lumbermills in Civ 4 if you know what you're doing, but we are still required to suppose that they produce meaningful amounts of production.
12:02:35  <Flygon> Hmm
12:02:45  <Pinkbeast> And if I can yoink a meteor down any time I want one 1) clearly that energy output is trivial and 2) I cannot possibly be short of fissibles AND fusibles AND whatever the other two reactor techs run on.
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12:03:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i frequently build lumber mills... why not?
12:03:47  <Flygon> Again, Solar Panels become gradually worse as time goes on anyway
12:03:49  <Pinkbeast> Because you should have chopped those trees earlier.
12:04:15  <Eddi|zuHause> especially in the city that'll get the "1 specialist per forest" national wonder
12:04:50  <Pinkbeast> Which is none, because you should have... now, I know what you're going to say, but no; jam today is worth more than jam tomorrow.
12:04:53  <Flygon> And, again, the last two reactors are Quantum based, and Singularity based... forgot exactly how the Quantum mechanics version worked
12:05:24  <Flygon> But Singularity leads me to believe that they managed to generate power indefinitely in a single reactor
12:06:00  <Flygon> There's a good explanation in the datalinks, but cbf booting other PC that has SMACX on it
12:07:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never really understood what triggered these intermezzos where it talks about talking to the planet or so
12:07:28  <Flygon> Ah
12:07:31  <Flygon> That, is complex
12:07:51  <Flygon> And actually requires some reading of the manual and datalinks
12:08:04  <Eddi|zuHause> they're also not in the civ4 mod, i think
12:08:07  <Flygon> But to put it unscientifically, telepathy
12:08:20  <Flygon> And general storyline explanations
12:08:26  <Pinkbeast> So everything in the game's scientific, hm? :-)
12:08:28  <Flygon> Some are exchanges regarding Planet, some are otherwise
12:08:39  <Flygon> Not everything is scientific
12:09:06  <Flygon> Especially in the expansion, what with the alien factions (that actually flesh out the story nicely)
12:09:21  <Pinkbeast> "The only thing unscientific about Alpha Centauri is Supply Crawlers and the Borg faction" :-P
12:09:59  <Flygon> I should have added an asterisk
12:10:06  <Flygon> Point is
12:10:09  <Flygon> 90% of the time
12:10:15  <Flygon> There's a pretty good justification
12:10:19  <Flygon> The other 10% is Star Trek
12:10:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i only had SMAC, not SMACX, so i don't know anything about "the borg faction"
12:11:04  <Eddi|zuHause> (i'm sure they're not actually called that :p)
12:11:28  <Flygon> http://sidmeiersalphacentauri.wikia.com/wiki/Cybernetic_Consciousness
12:12:08  <Flygon> Basically, based off a late-game tech, but supposedly all citizens have implants at the start of landing on planet
12:12:25  <Flygon> Though, it could be justified in that it's not as sofistocated initially...
12:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, those... the Civ4 mod starts those on the planet if a faction researches <X> technology
12:14:04  <Pinkbeast> Like religions?
12:14:04  <Flygon> Oh
12:14:24  <Flygon> The CivIV mod changed the story?
12:14:25  <Eddi|zuHause> not entirely like religions
12:14:50  <Flygon> And there was only one outright religious faction
12:14:54  <Flygon> http://sidmeiersalphacentauri.wikia.com/wiki/Lord%27s_Believers
12:15:02  <Eddi|zuHause> there are also religions in that mod
12:15:25  <Flygon> Oh, wait
12:15:29  <Flygon> http://sidmeiersalphacentauri.wikia.com/wiki/Cult_of_Planet This is also pretty religious
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12:18:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: like i said, i'm not entirely sure what the SMACX story was, because i never played that game...
12:18:54  <Flygon> Ah, rightyo
12:18:58  <Flygon> There's a novel :P
12:19:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but this mod basically starts with the "original" factions, and the new factions start later depending on how advanced it gets
12:20:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i think they just get a random city somewhere, but with one faction it said "takes over the city where this wonder is built" or so
12:22:34  <Flygon> Hmm...
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12:24:30  <Pinkbeast> That would be a bit of a poisoned chalice even if they started as your vassal
12:26:38  <Flygon> I still think people would prefer Alpha Centauri if 14-21 players at once was possible
12:26:48  <Flygon> It'd make giant maps and the amosphere MUCH better
12:26:58  <Flygon> Lots of different factions on one planet
12:27:04  <Flygon> It's a boiler waiting to explode
12:27:12  <Flygon> Especially when Planet Busters are involved
12:27:42  <Flygon> Miriam got a Planet Buster? Nuke her first for the sake of planet.
12:39:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: i think it said "joins your team", not sure whether that means wonders and stuff is shared as well, but research certainly is
12:40:09  <Flygon> Okay, I can see how that's op
12:40:20  <Flygon> Zakrov + Cyborgs = FUUUUUUUUUUUU-
12:40:42  <Flygon> It's like when the Borg and the Cybermen worked togeter @_@
12:41:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember which faction that was
12:44:48  <Flygon> Borg and Cybermen are Star Trek and Doctor Who races
12:45:15  <Flygon> Zakrov is mad Russian scientist, Cyborgs are the ones I mentioned earlier
12:47:38  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean the one that joins your team
12:50:28  <Flygon> Oh
12:50:29  <Flygon> Sorry
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14:20:33  <Eddi|zuHause> "statistically, every german eats 8 döner per year" <-- i think i beat that easily :p
14:21:19  <Celestar> :P
14:21:25  <Celestar> I am about average I'd say
14:26:53  <drac_boy> whats a doner?
14:27:32  <Belugas> hello
14:28:25  <Terkhen> hi Belugas
14:28:26  <Pinkbeast> Kebab meat in pitta bread, here, with sauce of at best dubious origin and maybe some lettuce or something like that
14:28:32  <drac_boy> oh
14:28:39  <drac_boy> never had any kind of wraps that much here
14:28:58  <Terkhen> I beat that by a big margin too, although I'm not german and therefore I cannot help with that statistic :P
14:29:20  <Pinkbeast> If you eat them they form a nice transition from drinking too much beer to vomiting. # I don't, can you tell?
14:29:35  <Flygon> I don't eat dinner
14:29:35  <Flygon> I eat a lot of sausages
14:29:35  <Flygon> It depends how often I go out
14:35:11  <Belugas> hey Terkhen.  gimme your hot sun, pleeeease!
14:35:22  <Belugas> freezing hard in here
14:36:50  <planetmaker> Hi Belugas freezing? oh oh. On new year I saw the first flowers starting to sprout
14:38:04  <Belugas> i would be tempted to think you're a liar, but after all, you're not on the same planet anyway ;)
14:42:16  <planetmaker> :D Nah, quite honestly, temperatures below 5°C even at night are currently rare. No freezing for weeks really
14:43:34  <Terkhen> Belugas: if I could I would send you some :P
14:44:03  <Belugas> i know you would ;)
14:44:12  <Terkhen> you make me feel guilty for thinking "today is quite cold"
14:44:17  <Terkhen> either guilty or weak :P
14:44:45  <Terkhen> we are at 4C :O
14:44:48  <Belugas> don't be.  after all, it's another climate
14:45:49  <Belugas> -14 this morning.  with wind, -18
14:47:22  <Terkhen> that's truly cold :P
14:47:27  <Eddi|zuHause> it's called the gulf stream :p
14:47:34  <Belugas> we're supposed to have more or less -5 -10 for the rest of the week, so today might be the lowest
14:47:40  <Eddi|zuHause> the sun is not really much different
14:48:13  <Eddi|zuHause> this was probably the warmest new year i've ever seen
14:48:20  <Belugas> and it's called the labrador stream here :S
14:48:53  <Belugas> we've have a record snow fall right after christmas: 50cm
14:49:05  <Belugas> and it keeps on falling almost since then
14:49:43  <Belugas> they say snow is a good isolant.  I don't believe them
14:50:06  <peter1138> hmm, portable structs :S
14:50:30  <peter1138> library with structs, compiled with gcc, to be consumed by msvc
14:50:41  <peter1138> gcc/msvc different on interpretation of struct layout
14:51:02  <Belugas> ho... those structs... i though you meant bridges that i can carry to cross streets...
15:13:00  <planetmaker> I sometimes wonder whether people really checked what they claim they did :D http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=63881
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15:18:22  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i presume he just was expecting an action14-style menu
15:19:12  <drac_boy> heh
15:19:15  <planetmaker> that might be the case. Which actually led me to create a long answer :-)
15:19:18  <drac_boy> planetmaker how about RTFM? :)
15:19:43  <planetmaker> drac_boy, nope. He - rightfully - expects action14 support and a GUI to set parameters nicely with each of them described
15:20:15  <planetmaker> that technique is supported for more than two years already. So it can reasonably be expected by anything not antique
15:20:59  <planetmaker> adding random numbers in random positions is... quite 1990. But we got 2012 :D
15:22:18  <planetmaker> luckily adding action14 is usually a piece of cake
15:23:34  <planetmaker> (tbh, I'm waiting for the question how he can add those :D )
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15:25:29  <planetmaker> the annoyance with the numbered parameters and my love for those houses was the only reason I ever updated ttrs :-)
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15:52:49  <kamnet> Has anybody ever considered setting up shop on CNet? http://download.cnet.com/windows/openttd/3260-20_4-10099327.html?tag=rb_content;contentBody
15:55:49  <Terkhen> if we would, we would have written the game name correctly :)
15:56:05  <Terkhen> I don't get all those pages that mirror everything they can
15:56:54  <peter1138> badly at that
15:56:58  <kamnet> Advertising/subscription revenue.
15:57:30  <kamnet> But, think of it more as a free advertising opportunity that exposes the game to many people who might otherwise be ignorant of it.
15:57:59  <peter1138> don't think that's important to us
15:58:22  <peter1138> gnome became concerned about brand, and look where that led
15:58:28  <kamnet> If somebody representing OpenTTD were able to control such pages, the quality of information being distributed about the game would be much better.
16:00:02  <Eddi|zuHause> kamnet: so, and who of us do you propose should waste time on this?
16:02:00  <kamnet> I wouldn't mind doing it, if there was no objection from the community.
16:09:17  <peter1138> i dunno, your record on information quality is lackign :p
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16:11:01  <kamnet> Oh, is it now?  :-)
16:15:18  <planetmaker> the problem I see is indeed the maintenance. It's a question of manpower. IMHO feel free to request access and maintain it
16:17:27  <planetmaker> the same issues arise with all these kind of platform. Also like android market, steam, and similar services
16:17:33  <kamnet> If we don't evangelize a little, we won't get new people who will come into the community, play and plant roots of their own.
16:18:57  <planetmaker> it's one of those tasks where everyone thinks that someone should do what anyone could do - but noone actually does ;-)
16:19:31  <Belugas> responsibilites...
16:19:32  <Belugas> yurk
16:23:38  <drac_boy> heh
16:24:09  <planetmaker> same thing with responsibilities: http://www.facebook.com/pages/OpenTTD/13607694555
16:25:04  <planetmaker> https://plus.google.com/113758069950805798160/posts as well. Why do we re-post simutrans releases?
16:25:31  <planetmaker> but google+ seems much better maintained
16:27:24  <planetmaker> hm. Nice. Zeph uses it as openttd / graphics blog :)
16:27:40  <Eddi|zuHause> is that a timestamp at the end of that url?
16:27:54  <Terkhen> :P
16:28:36  <planetmaker> Zeph's blog post is from today. 5 parts on making zbase
16:29:33  <Terkhen> do you mean in google+?
16:29:39  <Terkhen> I saw those in twitter
16:29:43  <planetmaker> yes. google+
16:30:03  <planetmaker> which is... actually linked there. it's on another website, but yes :-)
16:30:26  <Terkhen> :)
16:35:08  <peter1138> hhaha
16:35:14  <peter1138> slight bug with my stations/bridges patch
16:35:21  <peter1138> it doesn't bump the savegame version
16:35:29  <peter1138> looks a bit weird :p
16:35:30  <kamnet> I believe Jupex was actually operating an up-to-date OpenTTD Facebook page.
16:36:02  <andythenorth> hrm
16:36:10  <andythenorth> I'm getting pms about how to get grfs and crap
16:36:29  <andythenorth> can't decide if that's just annoying, or a good sign that in-game content is not obvious enough how to use
16:36:30  * planetmaker hugs andythenorth. I got two today already, too
16:36:56  <andythenorth> like, the link to release thread I gave was clearly not enough
16:37:03  <andythenorth> so either too hard, or we have a new crop of lazy users
16:37:08  <andythenorth> or both
16:37:17  <planetmaker> not banana-fied?
16:37:40  <kamnet> I think it's new crop of lazy users
16:37:43  <Rubidium> andythenorth: braindead users
16:37:56  <Rubidium> they can only do a particular trick without thinking
16:38:22  <Rubidium> *if* you add an item to a list they are using, they have no clue anymore how to do it
16:38:25  * drac_boy prefers to download from source website alone
16:38:57  * planetmaker doesn't use such grfs
16:39:26  <kamnet> Ah, I believe this is Jupex's page: https://www.facebook.com/pages/OpenTTD/285594021519741
16:39:38  <planetmaker> it's a pain. Mostly as *I* then have to give support to users who don't understand why they don't find stuff where it could be conveniently found
16:40:39  <drac_boy> its the same thing as if I wanted a particular painter's picture I go to his open house
16:40:44  <drac_boy> but to our own ways there :)
16:41:01  <planetmaker> yes. it's easy for you. You don't get all those complaints :-( Sadly
16:41:20  <kamnet> Perhaps we re-direct the complaints to drac_boy frmo now on? ;-)
16:41:44  <planetmaker> *random person not uploading releases to bananas*, I'd say
16:42:46  <planetmaker> but that's *also* work for me.
16:42:58  <planetmaker> virtually unnecessary one.
16:43:20  <drac_boy> kamnet nope...not my fault they can't bother understanding the meaning of the word 'arthor' :)
16:43:23  <planetmaker> especially as online content can URL-link ingame to the website, offer ingame readme, license info, etc
16:44:54  <andythenorth> drac_boy: what does "arthor" mean?
16:45:24  <Pinkbeast> One who writes about Arthur. Mallory is an arthor.
16:45:34  <andythenorth> I have looked in a dictionary
16:46:11  <drac_boy> 'the maker of anything; creator; originator'
16:47:10  <kamnet> I am Arthur the Originator, the Maker of Anything! (TM)
16:47:13  <andythenorth> sounds a bit tree-related to me
16:47:28  <drac_boy> andythenorth nope its to do with anything thats a creation
16:47:40  <andythenorth> or is it compression of art-whore?
16:48:05  <drac_boy> funny thing is the computer era defintion additional mentions 'writer of a software'
16:48:06  <kamnet> drac_boy: you mean "author", not "arthor".
16:48:14  <Pinkbeast> No, it's a sort of pirate-y Norse god. "Arrr, Thor!"
16:48:25  <andythenorth> Pinkbeast: google agrees about arthur
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16:50:36  <andythenorth> drac_boy: I think you meant Arthur, the children's character
16:50:43  <andythenorth> or at least that's google's suggestion for your word
16:50:51  <andythenorth> but what does that have to do with newgrfs?
16:51:32  <kamnet> They're drawn by DW?
16:53:47  <drac_boy> andythenorth grf would be a new creation when drawn .. so it fits with the 'creator' definition :)
16:55:11  <andythenorth> herp
16:55:30  <andythenorth> but why is this not in my dictionary?
16:58:51  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe we should disallow loading grfs that are not on bananas :p
16:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and then add some developer option that we only give cryptic hints on when people ask about it :p
17:00:12  <drac_boy> eddi that would basically block any forum thread downloaded betas
17:00:33  <drac_boy> basically you'll then have to shut off the forum storage just as well
17:00:46  <Pinkbeast> It's easy enough to find out the other option they only give cryptic hints about
17:02:19  <andythenorth> bananas should handle betas better anyway
17:02:31  <andythenorth> biab
17:02:32  <drac_boy> andythenorth except that who's going to keep scanning forums to keep the list updated?
17:02:39  <andythenorth> nobody
17:02:43  <andythenorth> none issue
17:02:46  <drac_boy> thn why do you think its 'better' silly
17:02:51  <andythenorth> ?
17:03:06  <andythenorth> what's the problem you're solving?
17:03:15  <andythenorth> or what problem do you think I'm solving?
17:03:19  <andythenorth> before we waste time :)
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17:03:21  <drac_boy> andythenorth yours..you say it'll be better on bananas...i asked who is going to keep that list updated?
17:03:30  <andythenorth> who keeps bananas updated now?
17:05:48  <andythenorth> I reckon it will be ok ;)
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17:18:48  <drac_boy> lunch now :p
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17:23:31  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... maybe railtypes should provide shiny/rusty/grassy/abandoned graphics for their rails?
17:24:16  * Pinkbeast mutters that getting away from the limit of 16 (and yes I know bits in the map data structure, not easy) would be nicer :-/
17:24:23  <dihedral> grassy = shiny + grass, abandond = rusyt + grass ?
17:24:42  <andythenorth> funny chap drac boy
17:24:45  <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: no, i meant that as 4 levels of usage frequency
17:25:08  <andythenorth> he's having lunch rather late for one thing :P
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17:26:29  <Eddi|zuHause> like here: the front to right line is "rusty" (occasionally used) and the left one is "grassy" (used a rather long time ago): http://www.lichtpower.de/Drehscheibe/Diverse_6665k.jpg
17:26:51  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I am +1 to some pointless eye candy :)
17:26:55  <andythenorth> how hard can it be? :P
17:27:21  <Pinkbeast> Getting it right so all lines in $player's game don't end up shiny / abandoned
17:27:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: he's canadian, what do you expect :p
17:27:30  <dihedral> i'd already consider the left part abandond :-D
17:27:40  <andythenorth> also Railroad Tycoon had usage graphs for infrastructure (coloured by frequency / congestion)
17:28:01  <andythenorth> which would seem to be implied as possible by whatever makes rusty rails possible :P
17:28:04  <dihedral> remake the map array :-P
17:28:10  <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: well, maybe the borders are fuzzy :p
17:28:17  <andythenorth> dihedral: oh that quick little task
17:28:23  <andythenorth> ok, I'll be done by tomorrow :P
17:28:47  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: "he's canadian, what do you expect" <- can we use that as a general commentary?
17:28:55  <andythenorth> maybe on the topic?
17:29:04  <andythenorth> ;)
17:29:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean there's abandoned, and then there's abandoned: http://www.lichtpower.de/Drehscheibe/Diverse_6427k.jpg :p
17:29:15  <Pinkbeast> Hockey, Kraft Dinner, Timmies, and eating bacon with maple syrup
17:29:52  <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.lichtpower.de/Drehscheibe/Diverse_6425k.jpg
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17:30:28  <andythenorth> hmm, baby duties
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17:30:42  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, LOL
17:31:00  <dihedral> trees on rails - that'll make the devs happy :-D
17:32:12  <Eddi|zuHause> this was in the middle of berlin, btw
17:32:58  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: also, over here http://www.nbl.fi/~nbl3392/kuvat/DSC_0085.JPG
17:33:35  <Eddi|zuHause> more specifically, the railyard of the "Anhalter Bahnhof"
17:36:01  <V453000> how does one make a town name newgrf?
17:36:09  <V453000> I need some list of words and?
17:36:49  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: there are examples somewhere
17:37:00  <V453000> havent found those :d
17:37:03  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: list of complete words is easiest, but you can also compose it of word-parts
17:37:15  <V453000> word parts sound more fun
17:37:22  <V453000> the resulting words can be wtf
17:38:25  <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: around here i think: https://maps.google.de/?ll=52.498015,13.377882
17:38:39  <V453000> hm is action F in nml?
17:39:07  <V453000> ah found it
17:40:05  <frosch123> V453000: there are about 2 dozen town name grf on the devzone
17:40:33  <V453000> ah it is under town names project
17:40:48  <frosch123> yeah, because there were so many :p
17:42:05  <planetmaker> V453000, look at the zillion examples on the DevZone ;-)
17:42:16  * planetmaker should be quicker
17:42:33  <V453000> yeah :) I just havent found them formerly
17:44:32  * Zuu hugs planetmaker. Beeing at the bottom of the developer list have some benefits :-)
17:44:52  <frosch123> pm got some spam? :p
17:45:05  <Zuu> I got my first email some days ago. Someone writing mostly in non-English asking for something.
17:45:12  <planetmaker> hehe, Zuu :-)
17:45:18  <frosch123> yeah, i guess that guy wrote to all
17:45:30  <frosch123> easy to tell, whenever i get something it goes to all
17:45:35  <planetmaker> that... 1.1.0-32bpp-ez stuff?
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17:45:52  <frosch123> no, copy&paste
17:46:37  <Zuu> Mine was something else. AI or GS related.
17:46:58  <frosch123> oh, so only i got crap again :/
17:47:22  <Eddi|zuHause> hmm... i'm torn between "funny" and "boring" watching these political game waves after the newest airport failure...
17:47:51  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: maybe you should take the job opportunity
17:48:15  <Eddi|zuHause> because i have such a record producing results on time :p
17:49:02  <frosch123> if you become prominent you might also take over some other prost*
17:49:12  <frosch123> she is also just became available again
17:49:18  <frosch123> thought might be a bit old for you
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17:49:31  <Eddi|zuHause> pfft :p
17:49:57  <Eddi|zuHause> those things i immediately skip over...
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18:16:45  * frosch123 just ate all christmas-leftover cookies :o
18:17:52  <jasperthecat1> Hello, I'm really sorry for that highways spam.
18:18:21  <frosch123> lol, i even remember you :)
18:19:01  <jasperthecat1> Well, I'll talk about highways less.
18:19:27  <jasperthecat1> And start talking about OpenTTD :D
18:20:55  <jasperthecat1> I'm going on multiplayer. Anyone can join my server.
18:21:28  <frosch123> i think noone in this channel plays the game
18:21:40  <jasperthecat1> Oh.
18:22:57  <jasperthecat1> You mean multiplayer, right?
18:24:16  <planetmaker> :D
18:24:24  <planetmaker> we play the meta-game ;-)
18:24:37  <jasperthecat1> Wow, he's happy that i stopped spamming the forums.
18:26:04  <jasperthecat1> I love the new features in the beta version.
18:26:18  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the "spammed with implicit orders" thing can be prevented if duplicates are not allowed between two explicit orders?
18:26:45  <jasperthecat1> :P
18:26:50  <Eddi|zuHause> or did we solve that already and it's just not in 1.2.x?
18:27:06  <frosch123> several things were improved
18:27:08  <frosch123> no idea when
18:27:28  <jasperthecat1> Already solved the problem.
18:28:03  <jasperthecat1> Nvm.
18:31:38  *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd
18:33:58  <jasperthecat1> Bored... (Server is: Jasper's server)
18:38:27  <Zuu> jasperthecat1: Enable AIs in multiplayer and throw some AIs in :-)
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18:39:05  <Zuu> If you add CluelessPlus then you'll play with an AI that I've written. If you throw in Admiral AI you get an AI from another OpenTTD dev.
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18:39:21  <jasperthecat1> What AI?
18:39:35  <jasperthecat1> Oh.
18:40:36  <jasperthecat1> Oh and I type really fast.
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18:42:14  <Zuu> Not that all other AIs are bad. Quite the contradiction. Many of the AIs are good but are mostly developed by different people with somewhat different ideas on how to solve things and how an AI should behaviour.
18:42:40  *** Jasperthecat1 [63304048@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd
18:42:54  <Zuu> Jasperthecat1: Not that all other AIs are bad. Quite the contradiction. Many of the AIs are good but are mostly developed by different people with somewhat different ideas on how to solve things and how an AI should behaviour.
18:45:38  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24893 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-01-07 18:45:27 UTC)
18:45:39  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:40  <DorpsGek> bulgarian - 38 changes by pdedinski
18:45:41  <DorpsGek> traditional_chinese - 30 changes by elleryq
18:45:42  <DorpsGek> hungarian - 67 changes by valaky
18:45:43  <DorpsGek> luxembourgish - 38 changes by Phreeze
18:45:44  <DorpsGek> turkish - 18 changes by niw3
18:46:54  <Jasperthecat1> I like to play with human players.
18:49:44  <NGC3982> There we are.
18:51:08  <Zuu> All AIs were created by humans thinking about good strategies and then wrote code that carried out those strategies instead of having to play the game.
18:52:03  <Jasperthecat1> Ok, I'll add AIs to my server.
18:53:19  <Pinkbeast> Try and avoid the ones that build 30000000 RVs
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18:54:01  <Jasperthecat1> You mean StreetTraffic?
18:56:00  <Jasperthecat1> Which AI is the best?
18:56:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: there are usually a few friction losses between the human's idea of the strategy and the code that resulted from it :p
18:57:25  <Pinkbeast> No, I mean most AIs that build RVs.
18:57:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Jasperthecat1: there are some "AI battles" which you can probably find in the forum
18:58:11  <Jasperthecat1> I know...
18:58:35  <Eddi|zuHause> then why ask?
18:58:54  <Jasperthecat1> Oh.
18:59:28  <Jasperthecat1> But I'd like to have people join my server and play.
18:59:37  <Eddi|zuHause> most (sensible) AIs will probably outperform you in the first decades, but once you have a decent network, you reach them again
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19:00:07  <Jasperthecat1> Right.
19:00:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and avoid having two of the same AIs in one game, they constantly block each other trying to build the same routes
19:00:48  <V453000> why do you even tell him all the shit about AIs when he wants live people? :D
19:00:48  <Jasperthecat1> Well, no one is joining me.
19:01:32  <Zuu> While CluelessPlus build RVs it also monitor all stations for jams and reduce the fleet size if it is unable to resolve the jam by expanding the stations.
19:02:00  <Zuu> One reason why RVs are popular among AIs are that there was a competition to make the best RV AI some years ago.
19:03:08  <Zuu> Another is that you can make good profit with it without it being as complex as rail. Yet it is not as simple as aircraft. (althrough, writing a decent air AI that is able to function also in hilly terrain is non-trivial)
19:03:10  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: because if you tell people often enough they don't need anyone else to be happy, they start to believe it :p
19:03:46  <Jasperthecat1> Yes, RV AIs are the best.
19:04:05  <frosch123> V453000: people write ais because noone plays with them?
19:04:40  <frosch123> sounds like a dominant strategy
19:04:49  <V453000> frosch123: that cant be true :D
19:05:40  <Jasperthecat1> :P
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19:07:04  <Jasperthecat1> I'm going to check and see if my server is registered.
19:07:20  <Zuu> Look at the servers page at www.openttd.org
19:07:35  <Zuu> If it is there, then it it is registred
19:07:56  *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd
19:07:57  *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
19:07:57  <Jasperthecat1> It's there.
19:08:27  <Jasperthecat1> I already forwarded my ports.
19:08:31  <floffe> i'm on debian unstable with the suggested packages installed a la wiki, used svn to check out r24884, but compiling fails
19:08:46  <Alberth> got an error?
19:09:15  <Kjetil> make error 1: PEBKAC :P
19:09:33  <floffe> several times: cc fails with "no such file or directory"
19:09:58  <floffe> Kjetil: yes definitely, it was a long time since i did this and not on debian (or derivatives) then
19:10:03  <Zuu> Jasperthecat1: If you compare the client/server rate for 1.3 beta 1 and version 1.2.3, you'll notice that you'll statistically will get more players if you run a 1.3 beta server.
19:10:04  <Jasperthecat1> I wonder why the AIs are not creating a new company yet.
19:10:27  <floffe> perhaps i should just delete the dir and check out, and try again?
19:10:28  <Alberth> floffe: ./configure output sane?
19:10:32  <Zuu> For 1.3 beta there is 19 clients on 10 servers. (almost 2 per server). For all servers the figure is close to one client per server.
19:10:33  <Jasperthecat1> I did set the 'give or take' option...
19:10:36  <Kjetil> floffe: maybe you should put the make log in a pastebin ?
19:10:48  <floffe> Alberth: ./configure: 170: ./configure: generate_settings: not found
19:10:48  <floffe> ./configure: 171: ./configure: generate_grf: not found
19:10:58  <Zuu> Jasperthecat1: Did you enable the advanced setting "allow AIs in multiplayer"?
19:10:59  <frosch123> floffe: use paste.openttdcoop.org to post some more
19:11:13  <floffe> are the only two issues i can find
19:11:49  <Jasperthecat1> Aha, I disallowed AI's in multiplayer. That's the reason.
19:11:52  <Alberth> floffe: can you paste ./configure stuff  at http://paste.openttdcoop.org/   ?
19:11:56  <floffe> sure
19:12:19  <Zuu> Jasperthecat1: If you want to force an AI to start directly, issue the command "start_ai" in the console.
19:12:21  <floffe> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2041/
19:12:42  <Zuu> You can specify the name of an AI or it will use the next slot in the configuration.
19:12:45  <Jasperthecat1> @Zuu, I already know it.
19:13:22  <Alberth> nice :p
19:14:13  <Jasperthecat1> Lol, WmDOT is not building bridges in both slanted roads.
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19:15:35  <floffe> Alberth: anything weird in there?
19:15:54  <Wolf01> hello o/
19:16:15  <Alberth> no idea, it's the first time I see that line :)  looking for where it finds those commands
19:16:19  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
19:16:20  <Alberth> hellow Wolf01
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19:19:08  <Alberth> seems it comes from config.lib     config.lib:generate_settings() {
19:19:25  <frosch123> yeah, but the other commands also come from there
19:19:35  <frosch123> e.g. generate_lang
19:19:40  <floffe> Alberth: hmm, there's a Makefile.grf.in referenced in .configure that doesn't exist in the directory
19:20:01  <Alberth> imported at line 44
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19:21:31  <Alberth> what shell do you use?  "." may not work with your system?
19:21:33  <Zuu> Jasperthecat1: If you found something that seems like a bug in wmDot, please report it to the form thread of wmDot with a screenshot or more clear explanation of what you think it should have done and what the script did instead.
19:22:17  <Alberth> $ROOT_DIR is the path to the directory with the ./configure
19:22:21  <floffe> bash afaik (unless debian has something else by default?)
19:22:32  <frosch123> dash used the be the default
19:22:44  <floffe> dash seems right
19:22:46  <Alberth> echo $SHELL tells you
19:23:00  <Alberth> try   bash ./configure?
19:23:03  <floffe> $ ls -lh /bin/sh
19:23:03  <floffe> lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 4 Mar  1  2012 /bin/sh -> dash
19:23:03  <floffe> floffe@norstaurar:~/devstuff/openttdcoop$ echo $SHELL
19:23:03  <floffe> /bin/bash
19:23:35  <Alberth> right, and it has #!/bin/sh at the top
19:23:40  <floffe> configure output looks the same
19:24:41  <Alberth> and /bin/bash is the real bash ?
19:25:16  <Alberth> I use zsh, but that is not a usual shell at Linux
19:25:30  <Zuu> zsh is my usual shell in Linux :-p
19:25:58  <floffe> cheanged that to yeah, /bin/bash ir genuine bash
19:26:14  <Zuu> One of the first aliases I add to bash is: alias ..="cd .."
19:26:29  <frosch123> same here :)
19:26:42  <floffe> i tried changing the line at the top of configure to #!/bin/bash but no change
19:26:51  <floffe> so the shell is not ths issue
19:26:59  <Zuu> the second is probably: alias vi=vim; if that is not fixed at system level already.
19:27:52  <Zuu> Ending up with vi when being too lazy to type the full name of vim is not very nice. :-)
19:28:10  <frosch123> ending up with vim isn't any nicer
19:28:18  <floffe> i'll try a clean checkout, on this one i tried compiling before all deps were installed properly
19:28:39  <Zuu> frosch123: I dissagree :-p
19:28:55  <floffe> configure output looks better now, those lines aren't there
19:29:14  <Zuu> How can one not like vim? :-p
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19:29:55  <Alberth> Zuu: some people haven't run into stupid limitations with their editor yet :p
19:33:48  <floffe> looks like it's compiling now... le'ts see if it runs
19:34:29  <planetmaker> floffe... I faintly remember that nick. Have you played on #openttdcoop like ages ago?
19:35:07  <floffe> planetmaker: yup, looked backed at the archives a few days ago, played for about a year back in 2007-08
19:36:26  <Jasperthecat1> Any road vehicle servers available?
19:36:46  <Jasperthecat1> Most of them are empty.
19:39:50  <floffe> well, i got it up and running now
19:39:59  <Alberth> ok
19:40:23  <Alberth> not sure what went wrong there
19:40:36  <floffe> messy failed first compile?
19:41:10  <floffe> also i'm pretty sure i had a version from ca 2008 there before, but that shouldn't have made it fail?
19:41:33  <Alberth> perhaps, but compile shouldn't touch the configure code
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19:46:13  <planetmaker> cool. Welcome back then, floffe :-)
19:46:18  <Eddi|zuHause> <Zuu> One of the first aliases I add to bash is: alias ..="cd .." <-- luckily suse adds some DOS-isms by default, so things like "cd.." and "md" work out of the box
19:46:38  <Eddi|zuHause> it always annoys me when other linuxes don't do that
19:46:39  <planetmaker> Alberth, except when make triggers re-configure :-)
19:46:51  <planetmaker> like it did yesterday
19:47:15  <Alberth> hmm, could be a problem indeed
19:47:36  <peter1138> luckily debian is sensible and doesn't add any of those dodgy aliases
19:47:57  <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: I tend to write "mkdir" on windows instead of using the shorter md command. :-p
19:48:50  <Eddi|zuHause> one of the coolest aliases i encountered in suse: it maps "zast" to "yast" :)
19:49:32  <Zuu> so that you can type yast on a qwertz keyboard with the same finger motion?
19:49:58  <Eddi|zuHause> no, so when something fails before loading the right keyboard layout, and you mistype...
19:50:26  <Zuu> eh ok :-)
19:50:45  <Eddi|zuHause> so the reverse of your thought, basically :)
19:51:54  <Alberth> perhaps you should use (t)csh with spell correction :)
19:53:21  <Zuu> I always have fun using US dvorak when installing stuff as you usually can only select between commonly used layouts in the setup menu.
19:53:38  <Zuu> s/stuff/new OSes/
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20:16:16  <andythenorth> so what kind of primary industry is a port?
20:16:21  <andythenorth> extractive?  organic? :P
20:16:38  <Belugas> a port?  isn't it just a transit?
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20:17:00  <andythenorth> well...
20:17:03  <andythenorth> this one produces
20:17:07  <andythenorth> even if you deliver nothing
20:17:22  <Belugas> seagulls?
20:17:26  <Belugas> guano?
20:18:13  <andythenorth> hrm
20:18:23  <andythenorth> I actually have graphics now for a guano mine ;)
20:18:28  <andythenorth> different industry though
20:18:43  <bolli> hmm
20:18:48  <bolli> Whats a typical cargo price_factor ?
20:19:18  <frosch123> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/CargoDefaultProps
20:19:55  <bolli> thanks :p
20:20:04  * bolli tries to make head or tail of it
20:22:04  <andythenorth> bolli: just put some numbers in and look at the curve in game
20:23:11  <andythenorth> ;)
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20:23:58  <andythenorth> the actual profit outcome of any cargo delivery is so dependent on things like map size, play style, running costs, newgrf vehicle design etc
20:24:06  <bolli> Thanks andy :p
20:24:08  <andythenorth> I wouldn't worry much about cargo payments ;)
20:24:24  <andythenorth> in FIRS, it's the relative differences between cargos that matter
20:24:32  <bolli> Is there any sort of rules  on what can be put on bananas? :P
20:24:38  <andythenorth> yes
20:24:48  <frosch123> yeah, i guess you have no chance that V writes a detailed article about it
20:24:59  <bolli> I'm trying to make  some sort of drug-running type game...
20:25:07  <andythenorth> dope wars!
20:25:10  <bolli> Mostly through boredom...
20:25:25  <andythenorth> do you want to (b) buy (s) sell (j) jet
20:25:31  <bolli> So low amounts for lots of cash + armoured...
20:27:02  <andythenorth> hmm
20:27:12  <andythenorth> submarines might be useful
20:27:19  <andythenorth> and stealth airplanes :P
20:27:23  <andythenorth> need a new disaster
20:27:42  <andythenorth> *if* we had a train robbery disaster, you could invert it to a drug enforcement raid
20:27:43  <frosch123> yeah, invisible disasters might be easy to draw
20:27:46  <andythenorth> but we don't :P
20:28:03  <andythenorth> train robberies are probably not in scope?
20:28:03  <andythenorth> :P
20:28:05  <bolli> Well, code on then :p
20:28:07  <bolli> *one
20:28:29  * andythenorth has been playing games with pikka, and was reminded that the game could use a bit more lol
20:28:53  <andythenorth> maybe balancing out the 'it must all be real' foamer and 'it must be insanely capable network' coop aspects
20:29:16  <bolli> hmm
20:29:46  <bolli> So do I make a port sprite that looks like a house and a not very large sprite for a submarine? :p
20:29:55  <Belugas> disaster: Closure of Lego Factory
20:30:01  <andythenorth> erp
20:30:14  <andythenorth> Belugas: got any Horizon Express yet?
20:30:29  <andythenorth> http://www.eurobricks.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=74722
20:30:46  <bolli> When I said "I" there, I actually meant "Somebody I find to counter my lack of drawing ability"
20:30:50  * bolli goes to pester people
20:31:41  *** St3f [~Anonymous@53577204.cm-6-8b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:31:54  <andythenorth> bolli: just lift some from FIRS or ogfx or swedish houses or such
20:33:46  *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable105.141-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd
20:33:49  <drac_boy> hi
20:34:01  <bolli> :p
20:34:05  <bolli> Good plan andy
20:34:16  <drac_boy> any of you recall of a website for industrial trains?  I thought I had something hosted from uk domain but I can't find it now apparently
20:34:30  <bolli> industrial trains?
20:34:36  <bolli> freight? ;p
20:34:45  <andythenorth> steel works and crap?
20:34:48  <andythenorth> or narrow gauge ?
20:34:52  <andythenorth> or?
20:35:20  <drac_boy> andythenorth either
20:35:29  <drac_boy> although 2ft gauge is ok too :)
20:35:40  <V453000> frosch123: the likeliness that I start giving a single piece of fecal matter about profit is close to zero :P
20:35:46  <Belugas> andythenorth, not at all.. this set is a reap off
20:35:46  <bolli> So you want info on TRains, locos, wagons or what? :p
20:35:48  <andythenorth> http://www.irsociety.co.uk
20:36:02  <andythenorth> Belugas: it's for collectors :P
20:36:04  <Belugas> you need two sets to have a decent one :S
20:36:05  <andythenorth> "AFOLS"
20:36:14  <andythenorth> or as we now call them "AHOLS"
20:36:16  <frosch123> V453000: thought that :)
20:36:17  <Belugas> yeah well... i'm on playing...
20:36:20  <Belugas> no... we are...
20:36:21  <bolli> http://wnxx.com/ ?
20:36:36  <bolli> Thats a site I frequent, and has a lot of info on current trains :p
20:36:59  <andythenorth> Belugas: I'm going to buy one, then I'm going to let my toddler crash it over and over again
20:37:07  <andythenorth> I might post video for the AHOLS
20:37:10  <andythenorth> they'll be sad :)
20:37:32  <bolli> Anybody want to buy a class 20? :P http://www.wnxx.com/forsale/pictures/hnrc141212.htm
20:37:35  <andythenorth> "oh my golly gosh you might break it"
20:37:35  <Belugas> hehehe
20:37:47  <andythenorth> "Lego is for collecting, not crashing"
20:37:49  <andythenorth> blearch
20:38:19  <bolli> Another noobish question...
20:38:32  <andythenorth> bolli: spend openttd donations on it?
20:38:32  <bolli> How do I get rid of this error: "nmlc: "lang\english.lng", line 30: Using {P} without a ##plural pragma"
20:38:36  <andythenorth> first we made a game
20:38:39  <andythenorth> then we bought a train...
20:38:48  <bolli> What a good use of the donation pot :)
20:38:54  <Belugas> my son had his share of models, for christmas. but he went into the Monster Fighters
20:39:02  <andythenorth> :)
20:39:28  <andythenorth> rent the train out for money to haul freight...
20:39:34  <andythenorth> use the income to buy another train
20:39:45  <andythenorth> after all this practice, we might actually make it work? o_O
20:39:57  <DDR> heh
20:40:13  <bolli> ¬¬ a plan.
20:40:16  <andythenorth> imagine, trains running around the EU with OpenTTD icon on the sides...
20:40:19  <DDR> The number of companies I've driven to bankruptcy...
20:41:17  <andythenorth> we'd get awesome PR
20:41:24  <andythenorth> "Virtual Tycoons go Real"
20:41:40  <NGC3982> Seriosly.
20:41:42  <bolli> We hire cowboy drivers, like DCR do :)
20:41:42  <NGC3982> I love this game
20:41:47  <NGC3982> I'm still not tired of it
20:42:06  <DDR> The OpenTTDCoop people wouldn't help us. "Breakdowns are on. Sorry, not interested, they mess everything up."
20:42:17  <DDR> I can't find any good servers. :(
20:42:25  <NGC3982> You can always play on mine
20:42:28  <NGC3982> my*
20:42:33  <andythenorth> define "good"
20:42:41  <DDR> I want something with a bunch of mods, because I like mods. Mods are good.
20:42:45  <NGC3982> Mods?
20:42:49  <andythenorth> mods?
20:42:51  <NGC3982> OpenTTD has mods?
20:42:56  <DDR> Expansions.
20:43:02  <DDR> I forget what they're called. :P
20:43:06  <NGC3982> Oh
20:43:09  <bolli> There are plenty of good servers around :P
20:43:10  <NGC3982> NewGRF's
20:43:11  <DDR> THE THING THAT ADDS MORE THINGS.
20:43:19  <DDR> Yes, NewGRFs. Thanks. :P
20:43:24  <kamnet> You don't want more things.
20:43:31  * bolli removes DDRs caps lock key
20:43:34  <drac_boy> andythenorth that website wasn't quite much help but the links did have some interesting things tho, thanks anyway
20:43:35  <NGC3982> kamnet: Of course we want more things!
20:43:37  <DDR> I like the industrial expansion packs. :)
20:43:38  <kamnet> More things = more trouble.
20:43:45  <DDR> I like the trouble.
20:43:47  <NGC3982> DDR: I can set my server to your specifications.
20:43:52  <NGC3982> DDR: What would you like to play?
20:44:02  <bolli> Why not start your own server? :P
20:44:04  <DDR> Hm, it's been a while now. Let me have a look...
20:44:16  <DDR> My internet provider blocks those ports for me. I checked.
20:44:52  * drac_boy still would like to know about these india steam locomotives
20:44:58  <drac_boy> but thats better left for another day perhaps
20:45:02  <NGC3982> I would suggest a FIRS+CHIPS+FISH+UKRS2+ 1832 temperate game.
20:45:19  <andythenorth> FISH+CHIPS
20:45:25  <NGC3982> Indeed.
20:45:28  <andythenorth> FISH 2!
20:45:32  <andythenorth> is a bit better
20:45:34  <NGC3982> Wait what
20:45:35  <peter1138> why did i just build a lego wall?
20:45:39  <NGC3982> There is a FISH2?
20:45:42  <NGC3982> peter1138: :O
20:45:45  <andythenorth> peter1138: you've gone insane?
20:45:48  <NGC3982> LEGO is fantastic
20:45:52  <NGC3982> I use it all the time
20:46:02  <andythenorth> I use it to entertain people
20:46:02  <peter1138> i seem to have far less than i remember having
20:46:02  <NGC3982> And it's ok since im a grown up
20:46:07  <NGC3982> :P
20:46:11  <andythenorth> peter1138: that problem is easily solved
20:46:31  <DDR> peter1138: You need some of those electric motors.
20:46:34  <andythenorth> using only the royal mail, I could, in one move, clear some of my loft and solve your problem
20:46:42  <andythenorth> my loft is lego-encumbered
20:46:48  <NGC3982> LEGO cannot be a problem
20:46:55  <bolli> Your internet provider blocks those ports for you? :|
20:46:58  <NGC3982> It's the most educational toy you could ever give a child.
20:46:59  <DDR> No shit.
20:47:22  <DDR> I *can't* host *any* server unless I pay another .00/month I don't have.
20:47:28  <bolli> :|
20:47:46  <NGC3982> What, are you american or something?
20:47:48  <bolli> What provider?]
20:47:51  *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:47:56  <bolli> Thats a crazy rule...
20:48:06  <DDR> Canadian. Telus. Yes.
20:48:10  <NGC3982> ISP bandwith and port capping is the work of the baelzebub
20:48:12  <bolli> Just learn to use telnet?
20:48:14  <NGC3982> It's not even logical
20:48:17  <NGC3982> Or usable
20:48:20  <bolli> I agree...
20:48:29  <DDR> No. No.
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20:48:36  <DDR> I envy europeans on a regular basis. :(
20:48:49  <bolli> One of the offices we're in has a godawful ISP.
20:48:55  <drac_boy> ddr try a more local isp and you'll have much less problem :-s
20:49:01  <DDR> I've got four servers in my server closet. And I upload stuff forty times faster than you download.
20:49:04  <bolli> Just incompetent at eeryhting
20:49:14  <DDR> None exists, as far as I know.
20:49:18  <bolli> Wanna  bet DDR? :p
20:49:37  <bolli> Gigabit line into our works server farm :)
20:49:49  <NGC3982> DDR: I'm sorry, you are on a 4Gbit upload connection and you have port 3979 blocked?
20:49:54  <NGC3982> That sounds very unlikely.
20:50:01  <DDR> I may have guessed at the speeds.
20:50:06  <NGC3982> :)
20:50:19  <bolli> http://speedtest.net ? :p
20:50:35  <NGC3982> Seriosly, having a local fibre connection with random ports like 3979 blocked sounds odd and stupid.
20:50:45  <NGC3982> 3G or something - sure!
20:50:47  <NGC3982> But not that.
20:50:54  <NGC3982> No, no *watery eyes*
20:51:56  <DDR> http://www.speedtest.net/result/2420342558.png
20:52:03  <andythenorth> untidy is loft http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3467/IMG_0823.JPG
20:52:10  <andythenorth> also this things http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3470/IMG_0822.JPG
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20:52:19  <andythenorth> oops, big jpegs :P
20:52:29  <NGC3982> andythenorth: I love you.
20:52:35  <NGC3982> I want that so badly.
20:52:38  *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-103.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd
20:52:49  <NGC3982> DDR: :(
20:52:50  <andythenorth> all of that crap?
20:52:57  <NGC3982> CRAP.
20:52:58  <andythenorth> the 1 year old has a cheeky habit of eating it
20:53:03  <NGC3982> oh.
20:53:08  <andythenorth> mostly without harm so far
20:53:21  <DDR> Oh, nice, trains. Those have always been in the 'several hundred dollar' range here.
20:53:29  <NGC3982> I'm twenty six in a few days, and im still in love with that shit.
20:53:35  <DDR> And thus firmly out of my price range.
20:53:53  <NGC3982> DDR: Same for us Swedes. LEGO is by far the most expensive toys.
20:54:00  <andythenorth> when you get your own kids it's ok
20:54:06  <andythenorth> no expense must be spared on toys :P
20:54:09  <DDR> NGC3982: A week ago, I built something based off RCX 1 tech that was suppose to take Deep Snow.
20:54:17  <DDR> Version 1, 2, and 3 failed.
20:54:22  <DDR> Version 4 also failed.
20:54:28  <DDR> Then I gave up.
20:54:30  <NGC3982> My parents still hold the giant 50-60kg stash of mixed LEGO from my youth.
20:54:42  <NGC3982> DDR: A what that was supposed to be a what?
20:54:54  <NGC3982> andythenorth: Hehe.
20:55:07  <bolli> hmm
20:55:14  <DDR> First thing, RCX: It's a programmable brick with sensors, centerpiece of the Mindstorms kit.
20:55:21  <NGC3982> Oh, i see.
20:55:21  <bolli> Can anybody help me to understand Lang file plursls? :p
20:55:27  <DDR> Big thing is that it can drive a couple motors.
20:55:28  <NGC3982> I'm to old for mindstorms, i guess.
20:55:37  <DDR> Nah, mindstorms is where it's at. :)
20:55:43  <bolli> "A plural or gender choice list {P} or {G} has to be followed by another string code or provide an offset"
20:55:51  <bolli> Like wth that means^
20:55:51  <NGC3982> DDR: But yeah, i know that. We used it in high school when trying to create Rubick solvers.
20:56:14  <DDR> But get the python dev kit for it or something, because the thing it comes with is reeeeally shitty.
20:56:25  <NGC3982> Oh, ok.
20:56:46  <DDR> Not only is it a graphical language, it's a graphical language with a /mean/ framerate after two pages or so of code. :|
20:56:52  <DDR> Anyway.
20:57:03  <DDR> The next thing. Deep Snow, because I'm in Canada.
20:57:12  <NGC3982> Ah
20:57:15  <NGC3982> I think i get it.
20:57:27  <NGC3982> Hey, i'm in Sweden and we have -no- snow.
20:57:28  <NGC3982> :(
20:57:44  <DDR> Unfortunately, the 8 AA batteries the mindstorms takes mean that it's too heavy, and whatever wheels I put on the thing just sink down into the snow.
20:58:45  <DDR> NGC3982: btw, are there any players on your server?
20:58:51  <NGC3982> DDR: ME! :)
20:58:51  <drac_boy> ddr its four actually...and theres a reason one of the box for it came with wide tracks
20:59:06  <DDR> I used those tracks.
20:59:16  <DDR> Third and fourth editions, both.
20:59:21  <Belugas> DDR: http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/5/SportsRec/ToysGames/RemoteRadioControlVehicles/PRDOVR~0501281P/Radio+Control+Skidoo+Snowmobile.jsp?locale=en
20:59:35  <Belugas> it is indeed working very nicely
20:59:41  <Zuu> bolli: Do you work with OpenTTD translations or script translations?
21:00:11  <andythenorth> he's canadian
21:00:13  <andythenorth> that explains it
21:00:37  <andythenorth> :)
21:00:46  <andythenorth> also...solve THIS ;) http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/3473/P5280222.JPG
21:00:48  <bolli> neither, I'm trying to Make a cargo newGRF in NML :p
21:00:49  <Belugas> me too me too!
21:01:05  <andythenorth> herp @ Belugas
21:01:19  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause concluded earlier that all canadians are weird
21:01:21  <DDR> NGC3982: OK, the FIRS+CHIPS+FISH+UKRS2+ 1832 temperate game sounds good, but I was wondering if you had any reason for FIRS over ECS.
21:01:27  <andythenorth> and eddi is usually correct
21:01:34  <DDR> Eddi would be correct, yes.
21:01:36  <NGC3982> DDR: ECS is impossible.
21:01:39  <NGC3982> DDR: That's why.
21:01:39  <drac_boy> nope andythenorth :P
21:01:40  <NGC3982> :)
21:01:54  * drac_boy thinks NGC3982 forgot about the thing called: read the vector table
21:02:12  <NGC3982> Doesn't matter. It's hard as poop.
21:02:19  <DDR> I distinctly remember winning it, until I build a huge maglev-engine-most-advanced #3 route.
21:02:26  <drac_boy> NGC3982 because you didn't follow the lines thats why
21:02:28  <DDR> That bankrupted me, and didn't make me any profit.
21:02:34  <Belugas> andythenorth, you did this one? that's a Technic or a pure creation?
21:02:37  <drac_boy> ddr heh
21:02:38  <NGC3982> drac_boy: Of course i didn't.
21:02:48  <DDR> FIRS is good, then.
21:02:53  <andythenorth> mostly Technic, but I got busy with a soldering iron to do the LEDs
21:02:53  <NGC3982> DDR: You can try joining ttd.dndr.se
21:02:57  <andythenorth> don't solder Lego btw
21:03:03  <NGC3982> andythenorth: Eeh.
21:03:07  <Supercheese> Melty melty
21:03:11  <drac_boy> NGC3982 if you didn't follow the lines then you're not really in a position to complain ;)
21:03:12  <Belugas> indeed not
21:03:16  <DDR> Can we drop the n from the name, there?
21:03:43  <NGC3982> drac_boy: I'm not.
21:03:53  <NGC3982> DDR: :D
21:04:10  <Supercheese> Dance Dance Revolution?
21:04:12  * NGC3982 needs to investigate why we ttd.dndr.se doesn't link up correctly.
21:04:22  <DDR> DDR is not dance dance revolution. DDR is just my initials.
21:04:36  <Supercheese> Well, it's both, and also related to RAM etc. ;)
21:05:15  <NGC3982> drac_boy: "Impossible" was not really talking about ECS, but how good i am at playing it.
21:05:23  <NGC3982> DDR: Does it work?
21:05:29  <DDR> NGC3982: The closest I can get by name is ttdistas.es
21:05:37  <andythenorth> canadians should know what this is http://www.flickr.com/photos/andythenorth/4826895221/in/set-72157624454166047/
21:05:41  <andythenorth> made in Calgarys
21:05:42  <DDR> Got an ip address?
21:06:07  <DDR> andythenorth: An umbrella?
21:06:11  <andythenorth> well done
21:06:17  <DDR> I've never seen the toy behind it.
21:07:12  <NGC3982> DDR: ttd.dndr.se is the address you should connect to.
21:07:50  <andythenorth> http://foremost.ca/products/vehicles
21:07:55  <DDR> Sez server offline.
21:08:01  <NGC3982> I see
21:08:05  <NGC3982> Let me investigate.
21:08:19  <DDR> ttd.dndr.se:3979 (IPv4)
21:08:56  <NGC3982> Correct
21:09:01  <NGC3982> Hold on, it's a local problem.
21:09:59  * Supercheese adds Garbage Trucks to Eyecandy Road Vehicles
21:10:08  <drac_boy> heh
21:10:09  *** Celestar_ [~vici@dslb-092-075-044-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
21:11:34  <NGC3982> DDR: I apparently have a new IP address. Hold on, ill send you IP by PM
21:12:01  <Supercheese> My code is so untidy :S
21:12:09  <Supercheese> but it works
21:12:28  <drac_boy> mm found an interesting locomotive .. the TU2
21:15:29  <Supercheese> I have two models of garbage truck, a "classic" Dempster-esque model and a more "modern" model, the question is what year should the transition be
21:15:39  <Supercheese> 1960s? 70s? 80s?
21:16:07  <Celestar_> hm...
21:16:18  <drac_boy> supercheese it always varied, theres some cities still running rather old side-cangrab garbage trucks
21:16:26  * Celestar_ is wondering whether to code a new DBSet for OpenTTD in 32bbp high-res
21:16:40  <Supercheese> Indeed, which can be simulated by continually running older trucks into the later years
21:16:49  <drac_boy> they're a bit amusing to watch ... arm folds down..grab can .. dumps can in ... drops can back down .. and fold up to then continue to next can
21:16:51  <Supercheese> still, I must pick a year
21:17:00  <andythenorth> 1978
21:17:11  <drac_boy> can't tell you sorry Celestar, I'm rather a 8bbp person :->
21:17:28  <Celestar_> :D
21:17:38  <frosch123> Celestar_: did you check cets?
21:20:10  <peter1138> good to see all the progress on 32bpp zoomed artwork now it's official
21:22:23  <bolli> bah. Sodding nagios
21:22:30  * bolli goes to fix whatever has broken
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21:25:44  <Celestar_> frosch123: cetwhats?
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21:26:10  <Supercheese> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/cets
21:26:12  <Supercheese> I believe
21:27:48  <frosch123> eddi might be able to tell you more
21:28:44  <frosch123> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=993809#p993809 <- found a screenshot
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21:34:20  <drac_boy> btw any of you think doubledeck would still had been likely on metre/cape gauge, just probably limited in top speed in porpotional to track ballast condition?
21:34:33  <andythenorth> very likely
21:34:59  <drac_boy> thanks
21:36:40  *** Celestar_ [~vici@dslb-092-075-044-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:36:59  <andythenorth> http://www.christopheharbour.com/blog/view/st.-kitts-scenic-railway
21:38:05  <drac_boy> heh mm ok
21:38:20  <drac_boy> probably could put that thing in as a 40-50kph train using nutrack narrow gauge tracks :)
21:41:13  <NGC3982> We are playing a 1832 UKRS2+/FIRS game on ttd.dndr.se. Join if you want to.
21:41:25  <Supercheese> Oh hmm
21:41:29  <Supercheese> OTTD version?
21:44:02  * andythenorth -> bed
21:44:04  <Supercheese> Nevermind, don't have time right now anyway
21:44:08  *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
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21:48:13  <peter1138> frosch123, oh, it stumbled on licensing again
21:50:03  <planetmaker> hm?
21:51:35  <frosch123> exactly
21:51:38  <frosch123> hm?
21:53:25  <NGC3982> Supercheese: The latest.
21:54:47  <planetmaker> cool. That can be r24893, 1.3.0-beta1 and 1.2.3. Thus it has a 2/3 chance to fail
21:54:56  <Terkhen> @get 4
21:54:56  <DorpsGek> Terkhen: 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither
21:54:59  <Terkhen> :P
21:55:02  <drac_boy> heh heh
21:55:08  <drac_boy> I was wondering when someone would notice that too
21:55:32  <planetmaker> when? "und aus dem Keller ertönt das eintönige GerÀusch der Bartwickelmaschine" :D
21:55:55  <NGC3982> planetmaker: ;).
21:56:12  <NGC3982> Supercheese: 1.2.3. :)
21:56:45  <__ln__> NGC3982: how did you succeed with your german songs?
21:57:09  <Supercheese> Oh poo, the new version of my grf doesn't like 1.2.3
21:57:17  <NGC3982> __ln__: https://soundcloud.com/sibirish_musik/appe-robotnik-sex
21:57:22  <Supercheese> Must have a fit trying to access nonexistant variables or some such
21:57:24  <NGC3982> __ln__: No german, but some bad english.
22:00:40  <Supercheese> Oh that wasn't it, apparently a road vehicle with no refittable cargoes just doesn't show up
22:00:56  <planetmaker> that's right
22:01:14  <drac_boy> Supercheese do what I have tried, provide an empty priceless cargo id
22:01:33  <peter1138> or make it refittable to something
22:01:34  <Supercheese> Well blarg, what else should a garbage truck refit to, currently only the FIRS cargoes of Scrap Metal and Recyclables make sense
22:01:45  <Supercheese> and scrap metal barely
22:01:46  <planetmaker> Supercheese, you can "work around": provide a capacity and set it to 0 via CB36 (capacity callback)
22:02:01  <Supercheese> Well, I want it to have a capacity if FIRS is loaded
22:02:08  <planetmaker> but why do you want it in other games?
22:02:37  <planetmaker> Supercheese, that's easy. Provide a capacity. Set the transported cargos to only those two cargos. No cargo classes
22:02:47  <planetmaker> and it will only become available when those two cargos are present
22:03:09  <Supercheese> Well, the intention is mostly for eyecandy, the cargo is a secondary concern
22:03:24  <Supercheese> I'll just throw in a switch based on current cargo
22:03:25  <planetmaker> nml: default_cargo_type : "SCPM"
22:03:28  <Supercheese> or somethin
22:03:33  <planetmaker> cargo_capacity: 20 ton;
22:04:16  <planetmaker> refittable_cargo_classes: NO_CARGO_CLASS
22:04:27  <Supercheese> I like the idea of setting capacity to zero if an FIRS cargo isn't found
22:04:36  <planetmaker> non_refittable_cargo_classes: ALL_CARGOS
22:04:50  <planetmaker> Supercheese, not needed. It won't show, if it can't transport anything
22:05:06  <planetmaker> but yes, if you still need it then...
22:05:09  <Supercheese> But I'd LIKE it to always show
22:05:12  <planetmaker> then you need to "hack" :D
22:07:13  <Supercheese> Oh, I just realized that since I used bitmask(CC_PASSENGERS); then Police Cars and Ambulances and the like can theoretically carry ECS Tourists
22:07:25  <planetmaker> :D
22:07:30  <Supercheese> Poor sods on holiday, getting arrested or injured
22:07:32  <Supercheese> ;)
22:08:32  <Zuu> So you get injured automagically if you go by an ambulance?
22:08:55  <planetmaker> re-animation, even if not needed, can crack ribs ;-)
22:08:55  <Jasperthecat1> O_O
22:10:56  * Supercheese wonders what other eyecandy vehicles would be neat
22:14:32  <Jasperthecat1> I have an LED sign that is programmable.
22:15:12  <Jasperthecat1> Nvm, that's off topic.
22:15:55  *** Jasperthecat1 [63304048@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client]
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22:17:21  <Alberth> Supercheese: hot rods, drag racers, or the car holding the world speed record
22:17:36  <Supercheese> There's already KITT and a Formula One car
22:17:47  <Supercheese> isn't there a Bugati as well?
22:17:50  <Alberth> could be fun to use the latter as transport service :p
22:17:51  <Rubidium> ugh... what could be causes of (timing) jitter in a MS DOS program when interrupts are disabled (asm: cli) on a Centrino laptop?
22:18:23  <Supercheese> or Bugatti*
22:18:58  <Supercheese> LRVS has it
22:19:13  <Rubidium> or, in reverse: how can I code something that runs at constant intervals up to 50 kHz?
22:20:09  <Supercheese> also has a UPS van apparently
22:20:12  * Supercheese has not used LRVS
22:20:51  <Alberth> I am somewhat wondering how much interrupt control you get nowadays, would a DOS program get emulated in some way?
22:21:11  * Supercheese ponders coding a DeLorean that disappears when it hits 88 mph
22:21:36  <Alberth> Rubidium: a real time linux kernel task?
22:22:04  <Kjetil> Rubidium: speedstep ?
22:22:10  <__ln__> emulated by what?
22:22:20  <Rubidium> Kjetil: speedstep is disabled
22:22:50  <Rubidium> Alberth: that still have the OS's overhead, and any hardware crap (which I think I'm looking at now)
22:22:53  <Alberth> __ln__: all the old DOS calls are still available?
22:23:31  <planetmaker> Rubidium, fpga :-)
22:23:35  <Rubidium> __ln__: it's MS DOS 6.22
22:23:52  <planetmaker> you need dedicated aquisition hardware which runs faster than system ticks
22:23:53  <__ln__> Alberth: i would assume DOS is still DOS
22:24:00  <Kjetil> Rubidium: maybe you should use a timer interrupt
22:24:11  <Rubidium> planetmaker: yeah... too bad the FPGA is already used to read/sample that data ;)
22:24:35  <planetmaker> 2x fpga :D
22:24:47  <Kjetil> just fit both in the fpga ? :P
22:24:51  <Alberth> 2x laptop :p
22:25:42  <Rubidium> Kjetil: we want to send pulses into the FPGA through the physical input/output
22:25:56  *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:26:15  <Alberth> Rubidium: some simple processor card, eg a Raspberry PI ?
22:26:16  <Rubidium> creating the pulses on the FPGA is useless, as we can just test that without running it in the FPGA
22:26:43  <Rubidium> Alberth: got a small ARM board as well... same issue, even worse (under Linux)
22:26:52  * __ln__ is not sure if RPi qualifies as simple processor card
22:26:55  <Alberth> hmm :(
22:27:00  <Rubidium> planetmaker: too bad NI didn't want to loan 2 systems :(
22:27:54  <Kjetil> If you want to do it under linux I guess you have to replace the kernel scheduler
22:28:25  <Rubidium> point is, the "hardware" is doing something
22:28:31  <Rubidium> can't figure out what it is though
22:28:33  <Alberth> Kjetil: theoretically, that's MSDOS
22:28:54  <Wolf01> 'night
22:28:56  <Kjetil> Rubidium: are you doing any system calls ?
22:28:59  *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
22:29:10  <Rubidium> Kjetil: nope
22:29:32  <Alberth> sorry no ideas any more
22:29:37  <Rubidium> just mov, jz, jmp, dec and outb
22:29:38  <Alberth> good night
22:29:42  <Rubidium> night Alberth
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22:30:19  <Kjetil> I guess it could be bus related if your are doing outb to a hardware device
22:30:32  <Rubidium> to the LPT
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22:30:46  <Rubidium> 0x378 to be precise
22:31:10  <Kjetil> that's probably connected to "xbus" somewhere which might be superslow I guess
22:31:44  <Rubidium> hmm... good point
22:31:52  <Rubidium> stupid busses
22:31:56  <Rubidium> they should take the train ;)
22:31:57  <__ln__> yes, use the train
22:33:01  <__ln__> this is pure speculation, but is the LPT nowadays perhaps somehow emulated on the chipset rather than being completely implemented in hardware like in good old days?
22:34:39  <Kjetil> how much jitter are you experiencing ? Might it be instruction cache misses ?
22:34:50  <Rubidium> planetmaker: and yes, getting a second FPGA is the idea... only shipping is more than half a month and we rather have something somewhat decent "soon-ish"
22:35:02  <Rubidium> Kjetil: doubtful
22:36:08  <Rubidium> the program loop is about 30 lines of assembler
22:36:45  <Supercheese> Oh I wonder if I should ask for translations before I update this grf...
22:37:41  <planetmaker> hm, that sucks, Rubidium :S
22:38:06  <planetmaker> Supercheese, do both: release the grf. And ask for translations. Provide a small translation update in 4 weeks
22:38:24  <Supercheese> Interesting idea
22:38:26  <planetmaker> nothing bad with having two versions which follow up eachother
22:38:36  <Supercheese> :)
22:38:56  <planetmaker> works surprisingly well actually
22:39:17  <Kjetil> still not sure why you would want to generate that kind of signal with a cpu
22:40:28  <Rubidium> because it should emulate a tacho, including acceleration, and with a pulse generator that's not really working well
22:42:22  <Rubidium> hmm... maybe a sound card could do the trick
22:43:34  <Jasperthecat1> Supercheese, what are you working on at the moment?
22:52:07  <Kjetil> can you just connect a fan with tach out ? :P
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22:53:00  <Rubidium> night
22:53:28  <planetmaker> night Rubidium
22:53:34  <Kjetil> good night
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22:54:57  <jasperthecat1> I found out that Rondje is the best AI in OpenTTD.
22:55:37  <planetmaker> best, "best" or 'best'?
22:55:48  <planetmaker> or just "one"?
22:55:58  <jasperthecat1> It's one of them.
23:00:03  <Supercheese> Jasperthecat1: Eyecandy Road Vehicles http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=56780#p972473
23:00:15  <Supercheese> version 0.3
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23:13:35  * Zuu feel jumpy as he probably made his smallest fix - a change of a single character
23:14:10  <__ln__> how many bits?
23:14:25  <Zuu> I changed a 'X' to a 'i'.
23:14:44  <Zuu> According to the spec, I can trade the 'i' for a 'd' too.
23:15:07  <Supercheese> loop counter var?
23:15:31  <__ln__> X to i is three bits, i think.
23:15:31  <Zuu> No, seprintf format argument
23:17:12  <planetmaker> @commit 13481
23:17:13  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Commit by smatz :: r13481 trunk/src/dock_gui.cpp (2008-06-11 21:37:36 UTC)
23:17:14  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: -Codechange: add 'B' keyboard shortcut to build aqueduct (planetmaker)
23:17:38  <Zuu> The actual patch: http://devs.openttd.org/~zuu/fs-5419.patch
23:18:17  <planetmaker> hm, looks smaller than ^^ quoted patch ;-)
23:18:24  <Zuu> (I used -U 15, to give full context, so the patch is quite long)
23:19:37  <jasperthecat1> Supercheese, I already have that mod.
23:19:43  <Zuu> planetmaker: Isn't your change a 'Change' or 'Feature'. At least not a 'Codechange'. ;-)
23:19:50  <jasperthecat1> But I don't see 0.3.
23:19:51  <Supercheese> Yes, you have version 0.2 ;)
23:19:52  <Zuu> Maybe an 'Add'
23:20:03  <Supercheese> I'm in the process of posting 0.3 as we speak (/type)
23:20:09  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: X to i changes 7 bits as far as i can see
23:20:13  <jasperthecat1> What does it include?
23:20:22  <Eddi|zuHause> X is 00111010
23:20:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i is 01000101
23:20:39  <planetmaker> I guess so, Zuu.
23:20:41  <jasperthecat1> I bet you added new vehicles?
23:20:44  <Supercheese> Hang on a sec, I'm posting the changelog in a bit
23:20:50  <planetmaker> Sma4z' modesty :D
23:21:03  <Supercheese> one last test
23:21:17  <jasperthecat1> Okay.
23:21:21  <jasperthecat1> Thanks.
23:21:29  <Eddi|zuHause> (or i'm possibly reading this wrong)
23:21:55  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i'm completely wrong
23:22:49  <Eddi|zuHause> X is 01011000
23:22:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i is 01101001
23:23:05  <Eddi|zuHause> so indeed it's 3 bits
23:23:19  * jasperthecat1 waits until Supercheese uploads 0.3 on OpenTTD content menu.
23:23:22  <__ln__> yes, that's the kind of ASCII my wikipedia knows too.
23:23:26  <planetmaker> wow. simpleAI and NoCAB don't do badly on a 64^2 map
23:23:34  <Supercheese> aye, there'll be a changelog there too
23:24:02  <jasperthecat1> Yep, just got the update.
23:24:16  <jasperthecat1> Wait, nvm.
23:24:18  <Supercheese> ?
23:24:26  <Supercheese> still workin' on it ;)
23:24:33  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: unless you're encoding in EBCDIC or something ;)
23:25:27  <__ln__> yes, i was about to mention Zuu didn't say it's ascii.
23:25:27  <planetmaker> fun, fun. Just testing a grf. And they make a competition of it: http://imagebin.org/242051 :D
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23:25:59  <Supercheese> Uploaded; not sure what the lag time is before it officially shows up in content download
23:26:21  <Zuu> planetmaker: nice
23:27:19  <Zuu> Usually it show up in-game rather quick. The download link on the site usually take longer. Though things might have changed as more and more things get mirrored.
23:27:38  <jasperthecat1> Nice, you now have a garbage truck.
23:28:00  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: some biggui icons are missing?
23:28:09  <planetmaker> obviously
23:28:16  <planetmaker> but it's zbase
23:28:30  <planetmaker> and I should revert it to normal size. I don't dare though
23:28:32  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and wwhy are the rails not the same colour? :)
23:28:54  <planetmaker> ask Zephyris :-)
23:29:15  <planetmaker> different angle of incident
23:29:38  <planetmaker> Supercheese, what do I search for?
23:30:12  <Eddi|zuHause> and why does the guy in the icon look so much like Bernhard? :) http://www.tt-ms.de/forum/uploads/avatars/avatar_27.gif?dateline=1340476421
23:30:17  <Supercheese> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=56780 or Bananas for "Eyecandy" should do it
23:30:23  <planetmaker> ty
23:30:40  <Supercheese> for translation see the thread ther
23:30:42  <Supercheese> there*
23:30:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: maybe these are horribly oversized?
23:30:59  <Supercheese> ?
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23:31:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: the vehicles in the first post you showed
23:31:45  <Supercheese> Err... no?
23:33:40  <Supercheese> Garbage truck is same size as baseset trucks, ±1 px
23:34:31  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the baseset trucks are horribly oversized? :p
23:34:38  <jasperthecat1> Did I lose connection?
23:34:54  <Supercheese> OTTD "scale" -- isn't ;)
23:34:59  <Eddi|zuHause> jasperthecat1: where have you seen it last?
23:35:00  <jasperthecat1> The chat reconnected...
23:35:27  <Eddi|zuHause> jasperthecat1: no, must have been something on your end, because here you just quit normally
23:36:03  <planetmaker> woah, Supercheese, I just noticed the sea gulls. Fantastic
23:36:17  <jasperthecat1> Oh, I guess I accidentally pressed a button.
23:36:32  <Supercheese> Inspired by existing sprites, I didn't draw them from scratch
23:36:44  <Supercheese> would that I could
23:38:09  <Supercheese> The large ones still have clipping issues, unfortuantely
23:38:17  <Supercheese> unfortunately*
23:38:46  <jasperthecat1> Anyone have time to play multiplayer with me?
23:41:49  <jasperthecat1> I'll use basecost mods, to make it more challenging.
23:41:59  <Terkhen> good night
23:43:41  <Supercheese> http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/video/8135540-unique-airship-designed-for-massive-cargo-is-almost-ready-for-first-test-flight/
23:43:43  <Supercheese> Looks like a prototype of Av8's "Skylift 150" :P
23:44:06  <jasperthecat1> Woah...
23:44:27  <jasperthecat1> It's huge...
23:44:30  <Supercheese> "Final model will carry 500t of cargo"
23:44:37  <Supercheese> Yikes O_o
23:44:54  <Supercheese> maybe they mean "500t of fuel+cargo"
23:45:26  * Supercheese leaves to walk the dog
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