Log for #openttd on 13th January 2013:
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00:02:49  <burtybob> xQr: You still here?
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00:15:10  <xQR> lol
00:15:21  <xQR> apparently he couldn't sleep :P
00:17:15  <drac_boy> heh
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00:22:15  <V453000> :) for a start
00:30:44  <drac_boy> heh nice V453000
00:31:06  <V453000> will be nicer, mainly information now :) but thanls
00:31:11  <V453000> ks
00:31:14  <V453000> .. :)
00:33:22  <drac_boy> heh
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00:57:42  <Superuser> hey all just wondering are there any autistic people in here (Asperger's counts as autism too)?
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01:00:06  <Wolf01> 'night all
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01:02:12  <longbyte1> Hi
01:02:32  <longbyte1> How do I upgrade an airport without disrupting airplane traffic?
01:02:54  <longbyte1> And are the planes just going to keep circling and not just crash onto the ground?
01:03:20  <longbyte1> I just don't want the planes' orders to get cleared... >.<
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01:05:17  <Superuser> so are there any autistic people in here??
01:08:09  <longbyte1> don't think so, why do you ask?
01:08:37  <Superuser> my brother said that approximately 40% of the people that play ottd suffer from some form of autism
01:09:14  <FLHerne> Superuser: Seems improbable
01:10:00  <FLHerne> 64% of statistics are arbitrarily invented, including this one ;-)
01:14:49  <longbyte1> How do I automatically rebuy trucks when they are service life
01:14:55  <longbyte1> age*
01:15:04  <longbyte1> over*
01:18:09  <longbyte1> can anyone answer my question?
01:20:01  <planetmaker> there's autorenew (to same model) and autoreplace (to other model)
01:20:13  <planetmaker> obviously autorenew doesn't work when the model is no longer available
01:20:38  <planetmaker> you can prevent vehicle models expiring by setting vehicles never expire in adv. settings
01:21:27  <planetmaker> and
01:30:15  <longbyte1> ok
01:30:26  <longbyte1> second, how do I upgrade a busy airport?
01:30:36  <planetmaker> destroy & rebuild quickly
01:31:06  <planetmaker> be sure to be allowed to build
01:31:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Superuser: besides that nobody in here actually plays the game... studies have shown that "geeks" or "hackers" are not more likely to have aspergers than any other group of people. instead "intense world syndrome", which is practically the opposite of aspergers is more common
01:31:19  <planetmaker> or you'll be left w/o airport, old and new
01:32:13  <FLHerne> Is that 'close airports' patch in trunk yet?
01:32:20  <planetmaker> iirc yes
01:32:22  <V453000> better connect the old airport to a train station or any other station
01:32:31  <V453000> so you dont lose the airport for good just in case something goes wrong >]
01:32:34  <FLHerne> I remember one of those ones was (overbuild or close), but not which :P
01:32:59  <planetmaker> overbuilding is not there
01:33:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Superuser:
01:33:06  <Eddi|zuHause> b
01:33:08  <Eddi|zuHause> brrr
01:33:24  <planetmaker> cttt
01:34:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Superuser: also, tell your brother he's an insensitive prejudicial person...
01:34:28  <planetmaker> :-)
01:36:41  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: weren't you going to bed two hours ago? :p
01:36:54  <planetmaker> yes...
01:37:08  <planetmaker> can't sleep :D
01:39:28  <planetmaker> actually ... I did that. I just do not sleep yet ;-)
01:44:40  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... looks like it snowed a little bit
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01:53:40  <xQR> lol planetmaker that was a short sleeping session :)
01:53:57  <Eddi|zuHause> "this vehicle had to be regauged from 'italian meter gauge' (950mm) to 1000mm"
01:54:12  <Sacro> those crazy italians
01:54:20  <Eddi|zuHause> err... who said we europeans had our gauges "in order"? :p
01:54:53  <planetmaker> lol. "Italian metre" sounds... weired
01:55:29  <planetmaker> 5% "protection fee" :D
01:55:37  <xQR> :D
02:00:53  <Flygon> Eddi: It's more in order than Australia
02:01:11  <Flygon> You only have three major gauges, Spanish, Russian, and Standard
02:01:31  <Flygon> And they're all self-contained
02:04:04  <Flygon> Here... well
02:04:11  <Flygon> Gaugeception isn't unheard of
02:04:42  <Flygon> There's 752mm, 1067mm, 1435mm, 1600mm railways...
02:04:49  <Flygon> Those're the four major ones
02:05:03  <Flygon> 752mm is mostly self-contained, though
02:05:22  <Flygon> 1435 and 1600 overlap a lot... impossible to make good DG lines with them
02:06:26  <Flygon> We've have had triple gauge railways
02:06:34  <Flygon> No quadruple gauge, though
02:08:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: we also have 1000mm, 900mm, 760mm, 750mm, ...
02:09:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: in early railway times there was also a badian gauge 1600mm and a dutch gauge 2000mm
02:09:41  <Flygon> Annnnd I gotta go
02:09:54  <Flygon> Mum's dragging me out, I hate the backyard >_>
02:10:09  <Flygon> Also, 760mm, 752mm, and 750mm are compatible :P
02:10:35  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on how much of a buffer you have
02:11:45  <Eddi|zuHause> if you're already at the low end of the buffer for 750, then you might get in trouble on 760
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02:31:58  <V453000> I suggest worldwide protest against time
02:32:02  <V453000> it cant be 3:33 again
02:32:03  <V453000> ..
02:38:35  <Eddi|zuHause> "worldwide time protesting day: stop time for 15 minutes"... except nobody will know when the 15 minutes are over, since time is stopped :p
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03:38:35  <longbyte1> what's the fastest car in openttd?
03:38:47  <longbyte1> or truck or bus or land vehicle with wheels
03:39:05  <glx> depends on newgrf used
03:40:58  <longbyte1> vanilla
03:41:04  <longbyte1> I believe
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03:42:05  <longbyte1> how do I stimulate the production of an industry
03:43:50  <longbyte1> I have a bunch of trucks demanding lumber, but the production isn't adapted to the demand
03:45:17  <Pinkbeast> Serve it well for some time.
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03:59:06  <Supercheese> You need to increase station rating to get more cargo
03:59:16  <Supercheese>
03:59:34  <longbyte1> gah, turning electric railroad to monorail is not like rail to electric rail
03:59:48  <Supercheese> Correct, unless using special newgrfs
03:59:53  <longbyte1> no diesel monorail trains
03:59:59  <longbyte1> lol
04:00:17  <Pinkbeast> And why not? The whole railtypes thing is a mess.
04:06:44  <Supercheese> Time for more pixel pushing... making graphics takes orders of magnitude longer than coding ><
04:08:21  <longbyte1> how do I reserve a specific truck depot for dropoffs and another for pickup
04:08:36  <Supercheese> truck station you mean?
04:09:03  <Pinkbeast> Make two stations.
04:09:12  <Supercheese> Yes, that
04:12:06  <longbyte1> make two stations, one that transports the goods from station 1 to station 2, the rest of the trucks pick up from station 2
04:12:29  <longbyte1> wouldn't transfer grinding be cheating?
04:14:46  <Pinkbeast> I thought this was an industry; drop off cargo X, pick up cargo Y.
04:15:08  <Pinkbeast> If not; route the dropoff trucks via waypoint X and pickup via waypoint Y.
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07:26:45  <Supercheese> "nmlc ERROR: Using spritesets with different sizes in a single sprite group / layout is not possible"
07:26:46  <Supercheese> huh?
07:28:10  <Supercheese> Different sizes as in pixels, or number of sprites in set?
07:30:55  <Supercheese> Bah, timezones; nobody on :(
07:32:10  <Rubidium> well... nobody with the answer is on
07:32:18  <Rubidium> though I doubt it'll be pixels
07:33:09  <Supercheese> I do have a different number of sprites in different spritesets in the same layout
07:33:14  <Supercheese> why is that illegal? :S
07:33:23  <Supercheese> one set has 8, the others 2
07:34:47  <Supercheese> Oh bullshit: "All spritesets used in a layout must have the same number of sprites, due to a restriction in the NFO format."
07:34:57  <Supercheese> I'll just add dummy sprites to the small groups
07:34:59  <Supercheese> :S
07:35:15  <planetmaker> moin
07:35:31  <planetmaker> Supercheese: different sprite number currently is not possible in nml
07:35:38  <planetmaker> will eventually be. after 0.3
07:35:48  <Supercheese> Eh, easy enough to fix
07:35:51  <Supercheese> just seems silly :S
07:36:00  <planetmaker> yes. just add [] dummy sprites
07:37:24  <planetmaker> Supercheese: the other way is to only use one spriteset. And assigne different sprites from the same spriteset to the same layout
07:38:01  <Supercheese> Yeah, but adding dummy sprites is less rewrite at this juncture, I think
07:38:15  <Supercheese> I coded for too long without testing compilation :P
07:39:13  <Supercheese> Bah, GIMP doesn't support math operations when inputting number of pixels
07:39:19  <planetmaker> test after logical steps :-)
07:41:30  <Supercheese> Yay, compiled
07:46:34  <Supercheese> Yay, works as intended
07:48:09  <Supercheese> Now to sprite-align...
07:48:38  * Supercheese hates sprite-aligning
07:53:06  <Supercheese> spritelayouts have weird coordinates
07:57:07  <Supercheese> very weird
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08:16:01  <peter1138> there's a gui for that
08:17:03  <Supercheese> sprite align GUI is less helpful when the alignment is "from NE edge" and such
08:21:32  <peter1138> oh that's easy
08:21:51  <Supercheese> I'm likely mis/not understanding it
08:22:02  <peter1138> visualise the tile top-down
08:22:13  <peter1138> as a 16 x 16 square
08:22:25  <peter1138> north corner is 0, 0
08:24:31  <Supercheese> Hmm
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08:44:49  <peter1138> what sort of tile is it anyway?
08:45:01  <Supercheese> Hmm, my childsprites' spritesets don't seem to be receiving the argument passed to them
08:45:13  <Supercheese> I've got the alignment sorted
08:45:22  <Supercheese> but now the randomization isn't working
08:45:37  <Supercheese> well, I'll just shove the random stuff right in the argument
08:46:33  <Supercheese> Still no :S
08:47:07  <Supercheese> ice_caps_NW_ends_set(nearby_tile_random_bits(0,0) % 2)
08:47:27  <Supercheese> should randomly choose the 0 or 1 indices of that spriteset
08:47:39  <Supercheese> but it only ever chooses 0
08:48:58  <Supercheese> ach, logic fail on my part
08:49:09  <Supercheese> typical
08:50:03  <peter1138> doing objects?
08:50:07  <Supercheese> yep
08:50:13  <Supercheese> Ice tiles
08:50:37  <Supercheese> too bad they can't be traversed by icebreaker ships, and then broken ;)
09:01:34  <Supercheese> Can I access extra_callback_info1 inside of a spritelayout?
09:01:46  <Supercheese> When the random_animation flag is set, that has nice random bits
09:01:59  <Supercheese> Well, let me try...
09:02:51  <Supercheese> Ugh, so much quitting and restarting OTTD
09:03:06  <peter1138> no because it's not a callback
09:03:13  <Supercheese> Yeah, no random bits :(
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09:03:21  <Supercheese> Hmmm
09:03:23  <andythenorth> is it?
09:03:55  <andythenorth> a good morning?
09:03:59  <andythenorth> I ask you
09:04:13  <Supercheese> Well, being 1:05 AM here, I guess it's technically morning
09:04:21  <Supercheese> and I'm being productive in coding my grf, so yes
09:04:23  <Supercheese> a good morning
09:04:37  <andythenorth> ok
09:04:40  <andythenorth> good
09:04:52  <Supercheese> I just need a better way to randomize stuff within a spritelayout
09:05:03  <Supercheese> better/easier
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09:05:11  * andythenorth has authored one lego cement mixer
09:05:16  <andythenorth> authored?
09:05:32  <andythenorth> is that true if I just followed instructions?
09:06:22  <Supercheese> Author, from the Latin auctor, can mean "originator", "doer", etc.
09:06:29  <Supercheese> seems good to me :)
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09:06:45  <Supercheese> "enlarger"
09:07:01  <Supercheese> "grower", even
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09:09:49  <Supercheese> Howdy
09:09:54  <Alberth> hi hi
09:10:35  <Supercheese> Hmm, maybe I can shove random bits into a temp storage and use that
09:11:36  <Supercheese> Wait, what kind of tiles can nearby_tile_random_bits access?
09:11:43  <Supercheese> Only tiles within the object?
09:13:31  <andythenorth> what's the goal?
09:14:00  <Supercheese> I've got some childsprites in a spritelayout I would like to each receive independently random data to select between sprites in their spritesets
09:14:07  <Supercheese> not entirely sure how to best do that
09:14:25  <Supercheese> 4 childsprites to be precise
09:14:55  <andythenorth> random but deterministic?
09:15:03  <andythenorth> erp
09:15:09  <Supercheese> random enough™
09:15:16  <andythenorth> reliably random I should have said
09:15:37  <Supercheese> I'm just trying to avoid stuff looking too homogenous
09:15:46  <peter1138> sprites don't actually do anything, they're just sprites
09:16:00  <Supercheese> I want to pass an argument to the spriteset
09:16:11  <Supercheese> select the index randomly
09:16:12  <peter1138> spritesets don't have arguments
09:16:17  <Supercheese> yes they do
09:16:22  <andythenorth> not really :)
09:16:26  <andythenorth> not at run time
09:16:28  <Supercheese> indices/whatever
09:16:40  <andythenorth> its all magic created for you by nfo :)
09:16:43  <andythenorth> nml :P
09:16:47  <Supercheese> as long as it works
09:16:49  * andythenorth needs to have breakfast
09:16:54  <andythenorth> 50% of what I type is wrong today
09:16:59  <andythenorth> that's 5% more than normal
09:17:04  <Supercheese> :D
09:17:54  <andythenorth> Supercheese: got FIRS checked out?
09:18:08  <Supercheese> Not really, been working a lot on my grfs
09:18:26  <andythenorth> I'm looking for some randomising code there
09:19:09  <Supercheese> Oh, you mean I should be checking the code for inspiration... right
09:19:12  <andythenorth> nah
09:19:19  <andythenorth> it's way too templated :P
09:19:21  <andythenorth> I just checked
09:19:21  <Supercheese> thought you meant like SVN checkout or something
09:19:26  <andythenorth> I did at first
09:19:29  <andythenorth> still no breakfast :P
09:19:46  <Supercheese> oh my, ,py
09:19:49  <Supercheese> .py*
09:20:13  <andythenorth>                     hide_sprite: (terrain_type == TILETYPE_SNOW) || (current_year + 5 * LOAD_TEMP(0) / 0x10000) < 1920 || (current_year + 5 * LOAD_TEMP(0) / 0x10000) >= 1945;
09:20:25  <andythenorth> brb
09:20:27  <andythenorth> eating
09:22:25  <Supercheese> My choir director is going to hate me in ~7 hours when I have to sing, I'll have had no sleep :S
09:23:02  <andythenorth> objects have some random bits somewhere yes?
09:23:37  <Supercheese> nearby_tile_random_bits
09:24:07  <Supercheese> can get random bits from the current tile, doesn't seem to work on adjacent tiles
09:24:12  <andythenorth> and you have registers (temp / storage?)
09:24:20  <Supercheese> that is possible, yes
09:24:51  <Supercheese> I'm probably missing a very simple way to do what I want, perhaps I should sleep on it
09:25:04  <andythenorth> do you actually need every sprite to be random?
09:25:09  <andythenorth> or could you just select between combinations?
09:25:45  <Supercheese> Hmm
09:26:22  <andythenorth> I can't be bothered to look up how many bits you have :P
09:26:27  <andythenorth> holding a baby
09:26:32  <Supercheese> Well, each tile will be different, but the combinations will be the same I think
09:26:40  <Supercheese> using nearby_tile_random_bits(0,0) % whatever
09:27:16  <Supercheese> if I get enough random variants that will probably look OK
09:27:28  <andythenorth> just use the tile's own bits to switch combos
09:27:41  <andythenorth> 8 combos is plenty imho
09:27:48  <Supercheese> 8 is what I was shooting for, yeah
09:28:34  <Supercheese> I'll try that
09:28:53  <andythenorth> the clamp thingy is useful in nml, can't remember its name
09:28:56  <andythenorth> modulo?
09:29:07  <Supercheese> % mod, yeah
09:29:28  <andythenorth> I would use hide_sprite to handle this I think
09:29:40  <andythenorth> or use a switch to select entire spritegroups
09:29:52  <Supercheese> Yeah, already using that to hide sprite based on nearby_tile_object_type(0, 1) == same_obj
09:29:57  <andythenorth> all this magic inside layouts is a bit new-school for me :P
09:30:11  <Supercheese> I took inspiration from OGFX+ Landscape and VAST Objects
09:30:12  <andythenorth> I am used to thinking about varaction 2s that select layouts
09:30:14  <Supercheese> intense code
09:30:45  <Supercheese> I should apply for university credit for all this :P
09:31:51  <peter1138> you should use nfo
09:32:01  <peter1138> at least it doesn't try & pretend to be something it's not :p
09:32:03  <Supercheese> O_o
09:32:29  <Supercheese> well, it'd certainly be more difficult, I give you that
09:32:40  <Supercheese> a university-style move :P
09:33:21  <andythenorth> peter1138: nml isn't that evil
09:33:32  <andythenorth> it's just misleading if you confuse what's run time and what's not :P
09:34:00  <andythenorth> and what is really a whole load of magic advanced varaction 2 being hidden from you :P
09:34:15  * Supercheese likes the magic very much
09:34:36  <peter1138> does it have the sense to translate % 2 to & 1?
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09:35:37  <Supercheese> what does & 1 do?
09:35:49  <peter1138> selects the first bit, giving you 0 or 1
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09:43:11  <Supercheese> Oh hmm, maybe stuff like town_euclidean_dist is pseudo-random enough
09:43:40  <peter1138> but how expensive is thata?
09:43:46  <Supercheese> not a good idea?
09:44:27  <andythenorth> not for graphics chain
09:44:28  <andythenorth> overkill
09:44:32  <Supercheese> ok
09:44:34  <andythenorth> just use the random bits
09:44:42  <Supercheese> yeah
09:44:50  <andythenorth> or something with the animation frame
09:44:55  <andythenorth> 8 animation frames?
09:44:56  <Supercheese> was debating that
09:45:03  <andythenorth> each frame selects a combo
09:45:16  <andythenorth> advance the frame to random(8) on construction
09:45:18  <andythenorth> solved
09:45:22  <andythenorth> cheap
09:45:29  <Supercheese> Hmm, yes
09:46:26  <Supercheese> Haha, oops, my objects overhang the map edge if they're built at it
09:46:53  <peter1138> getting distance to closest town requires looping over all towns, not really a good idea
09:47:09  <Supercheese> I'll avoid it then :)
09:47:11  <peter1138> maybe the nml specs should say whether "variables" are costly
09:47:28  <Supercheese> seems like a decent idea
09:47:46  <Supercheese> well, definitely time to sleep
09:47:53  <Supercheese> many thanks for the help & advice :D
09:49:06  <Supercheese> valete omnes
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09:56:32  <Wolf01> hello o/
09:59:20  <Terkhen> good morning
10:04:37  <andythenorth> bonjour
10:08:22  <V453000> elo
10:10:14  <Alberth> mornink
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10:21:22  <burtybob> If anyone sees xQR today tell them burty/burtybob said thank you. It was the socket getting told the wrong packet size, it was reading the buffer size instead of the real size!
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11:23:02  <planetmaker> moin
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11:25:10  <V453000> hai
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11:26:24  <drac_boy> hi
11:30:41  <Flygon> Howdy
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11:35:55  <planetmaker> your NUTS wiki looks very nice, V453000
11:36:14  <drac_boy> how're you flygon?
11:36:23  <V453000> thank you, I hope to make it look a lot nicer by substituting some texts for images :) but so far mainly the info
11:36:31  <Flygon> I'm decent enough
11:36:58  <Flygon> Sitting around, realizing that Victorian Steamrail would have a money printer if they restored H220 :p
11:37:44  <Flygon> Bugger would be more powerful than any locomotive V/Line currently has. Fit in a massive tender and suddenly you can do 500km trips faster than their current N-class locos. And it'd be great for publicity :p
11:37:53  <drac_boy> heh -_-
11:38:00  <drac_boy> V453000 link?
11:38:53  <Flygon> Let's put it this way. N-class struggling up certain hills would barely push 60-80km/hm. Harry was designed to keep an 80km/h minimum on the same slopes (and, in practice... it went faster)
11:39:00  <Flygon> :B
11:39:56  <V453000> drac_boy:
11:41:44  <drac_boy> oh right, didn't know it was the same page you were talking about
11:43:33  <peter1138> V453000, but it's unrealistic!
11:44:33  <peter1138> what is 'extra' ?
11:45:46  <peter1138> and that rainbow thing
11:46:29  <V453000> stuff :)
11:46:49  <V453000> extra are trains which realistic people should not trifle with as they can melt brains
11:47:47  <drac_boy> heh?
11:48:03  <peter1138> ah
11:48:07  <peter1138> mentally disturbed class
11:48:27  <V453000> the rainbow thing specifically is trains which have faces, randomize mood upon station visit or servicing, and change power at the same time
11:48:34  <V453000> yes :)
11:49:15  <drac_boy> :)
11:49:16  <V453000> trains which look like slugs, badass modern steamer, minecraft inspired trains
11:49:31  <V453000> pretty much covers the extra category
11:49:43  <V453000> rest is rather normal
11:59:17  <frosch123> there is still no unicorn class
11:59:49  <Kjetil> isn't unicorns cargo ?
11:59:50  <V453000> sorry :)
11:59:53  <peter1138> robot unicorn attack
12:00:06  <Kjetil> nyankatze-planes
12:00:07  <peter1138> plays erasure as a running sound
12:00:10  <V453000> frosch123: if you tell me the stats and why such a train would be unique, maybe? .p
12:01:01  <frosch123> low capacity, instant acceleration
12:01:04  <Alberth> it is unique in its capability to transport unicorns
12:02:05  <V453000> the slugs pretty much fill that role frosch123
12:02:06  <V453000> next :)
12:02:08  <frosch123> Kjetil: unicorns are more like reindeers
12:02:48  <frosch123> V453000: it does electric sparks?
12:02:55  <V453000> it isnt just about comparing stats, it needs to have some utility, like for which network you use it, or in which situation
12:02:58  <frosch123> i think unicorns are electric trains
12:03:00  <V453000> lol
12:03:02  <frosch123> the horn is the pantograph
12:04:58  <frosch123> but yeah, i guess unicorns fit better into a rv set
12:05:04  <frosch123> or as helicopter
12:05:32  <V453000> :D
12:05:34  <V453000> helicopter it is
12:06:00  <frosch123> reindeers also work as helicopter
12:06:13  <V453000> you should stop drinking frosch123 :))
12:06:26  <frosch123> though maybe reindeers are more for cargo, and unicorns are for pax
12:06:31  <V453000> take an example of me, I have only normal ideas
12:07:22  <frosch123> maybe you drank to much? :p
12:08:10  <drac_boy> heh ok how about both of you the hell stop drinking and whatever you still have in your glass next to the keyboard...pour it down the sink? >_<
12:08:17  <drac_boy> :P
12:08:33  <V453000> veeery bad idea drac_boy
12:08:39  <drac_boy> why? :)
12:08:43  <frosch123> hmm, ok, my sink is plastic; it might be able to deal with it
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12:27:55  <Pikka> stop that
12:28:11  <__ln__> ok
12:29:04  <Pikka> unihelicornicopters
12:29:27  <Pikka> ridiculous
12:29:30  * V453000 blames frosch
12:29:51  * Pikka blames peter1138
12:31:40  <Pikka> Alberth, you want to make it so I can put rotors on the Skyranger? :D
12:32:30  <Pikka> while you're there :D
12:32:44  <Pikka> newdisastervehicles! \o/
12:33:13  <frosch123> hmm, btw, is the newsmoke spec also of interest to you?
12:33:30  <Alberth> Pikka: OpenGFX+disasters? :)
12:33:33  <peter1138> NewSmoke!
12:33:37  <Pikka> news moke is very interesting!
12:33:45  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: a helicopterus?
12:33:46  <peter1138> wait, blaming me? :S
12:33:58  <Pikka> not for any specific thing, peter, just as general policy
12:34:02  <frosch123> Pikka:
12:34:34  <peter1138> i see
12:36:04  <Pikka> hmm, frosch123
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12:36:39  <peter1138> callback XXX, SAUCY
12:36:58  <Pikka> so, from a quick reading, it can only create one effect at a time?
12:37:21  <Pikka> so for a ship with two funnels, rather than emitting effects constantly from both, you can only alternate between them? :)
12:37:22  <frosch123> no, 16
12:37:25  <Pikka> oh
12:37:29  <Pikka> I did say quick :)
12:37:43  <frosch123> 15 actually
12:37:44  <peter1138> Registers 100+x: Define x-th effect.
12:37:53  <Pikka> yes
12:38:04  <Pikka> Bits 0..3: Number of effects to spawn, I see now
12:38:07  <Pikka> neato :)
12:38:59  <Pikka> sounds good.  aircraft with engines on fire ahoy :D
12:41:25  <Pikka> I suspect andy might want a constant effect model for his ships, though
12:41:56  <Pikka> a steam model without the "Gradually less effects when approaching max speed"
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12:44:13  <peter1138> proportional to amount of power need to sustain velocity
12:44:21  <peter1138> do ships have power?
12:44:26  <Pikka> nope
12:44:30  <Pikka> nor weight nor drag neither
12:44:38  <peter1138> well that needs adding!
12:44:52  <Pikka> do it for planes too
12:45:01  <Pikka> let's turn OpenTTD into a flight simulator!
12:45:13  <peter1138> planes have that acceleration property, heh
12:45:25  <Pikka> yeah
12:46:11  <peter1138> weight in tons... hmm
12:46:39  <Pikka> the acceleration property for aircraft is incredibly unrealsilly
12:47:25  <Pikka> all real aircraft can accelerate to as fast as they can go practically instantaneously, in OpenTTD terms.
12:47:47  <peter1138> and instantly slow down, yes
12:48:06  <Pikka> slowing down is harder
12:48:12  <peter1138> yes
12:49:52  <Pikka> any road up
12:50:19  <Pikka> I should use FIRS sprites and make some airports
12:50:44  <Pikka> if I actually have a full set of newgrfairports ready to code, someone might be inspired to make it happen
12:50:47  <Pikka> it's a theory :)
12:51:15  <peter1138> nah, i'm all out of stuff now that station triggers work even though nothing uses them properly
12:54:11  <Pikka> draw some sailing ships for FISH if you're at a loose end :D
12:54:54  <peter1138> self wagon override
12:54:56  <peter1138> sounds fun
12:55:06  <Pikka> tres
12:55:30  <peter1138> When returning a custom effect from CB XXX, the effect is resolved similar to the rotor sprite of helicopters using an 'self' wagon-override.
12:55:47  <Pikka> mmhm
12:55:54  <peter1138> could be fun
12:56:23  <peter1138> i can't remember why it was done like that
12:56:31  <peter1138> probably cos he could
12:56:33  <Pikka> because patchman, no doubt
12:57:28  <Pikka>
12:57:33  <Pikka> that's a short url
12:57:35  <Pikka>
12:57:50  <Pikka> I have been researching this here ship today, for novel purposes
12:57:50  <__ln__> may be of interest to someone, or not:
12:58:22  <peter1138> Propery YYY
12:58:26  <peter1138> Propery!
12:59:33  <Pikka> Scottish Prince belonged to the Scottish Line of soiling vessels
12:59:37  <Pikka> hooray for OCR
13:01:48  <oskari89> Was there a submarine on TTD?
13:01:57  <peter1138> yes
13:02:06  <oskari89> Is it on OpenTTD?
13:02:11  <Pikka> gurgle gurgle
13:02:20  <peter1138> yes
13:02:27  <oskari89> :D
13:02:28  <oskari89> How nice
13:02:34  <oskari89> I haven't seen that
13:02:52  <oskari89> Has someone else, and has screenshot?
13:02:52  <peter1138> do you play with disasters on?
13:03:05  <oskari89> Yes
13:03:15  <frosch123> peter1138: from the specs: "It also allows changing the look of helicopter rotors, and in the future, the look of train visual effects such as steam and diesel smoke. "
13:03:24  <frosch123> that is written there for like 7 years?
13:03:25  <peter1138> then it should appear rarely later in games
13:03:38  <peter1138> frosch123, nice
13:03:54  <Pikka> there you are oskari89
13:04:07  <oskari89> Yup
13:04:25  <oskari89> That could launch some ICBM:s!
13:05:18  <oskari89> And could destroy nearby ships with torpedoes
13:05:50  <frosch123> you wouldn't see them in that case
13:06:08  <oskari89> Hmm
13:07:56  <oskari89> Just a torpedo wake could be nice with that nearby ship explosion
13:08:25  <oskari89> After that submarine has appeared and again disappeared
13:09:36  <Alberth> you can only destroy tracks and roads with explosions :p
13:09:47  <Alberth> and water!
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13:10:25  <oskari89> Ships should be able to crash.
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13:15:27  <peter1138> yeaH!
13:15:34  <peter1138> let's make them even more useless
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13:16:44  * drac_boy thinks peter1138 is not caring for towns that are stuck with lot of water surrounding them :P
13:16:46  <drac_boy> heh heh
13:17:11  <peter1138> more profitable to bridge it
13:17:17  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24912 /trunk/src (bridge_map.h tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp) (2013-01-13 13:17:12 UTC)
13:17:18  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5389]: Upgrading bridges could steal road types. (adf88)
13:17:27  <peter1138> road types!
13:17:54  <peter1138> i think no. of towns should be scaled by water percentage
13:18:38  <drac_boy> peter1138 actually thats not quite the case.. a simple tug-sized boat costs less than even the wooden bridge
13:18:45  <drac_boy> :)
13:18:59  <peter1138> costs less, yes
13:19:08  <peter1138> but makes near to 0 money
13:20:17  <drac_boy> you're wrong...its only a runcost of 1-3K per year depending on size .. and even only 10 passengers each month is still much more than that (although if you're using reducedpayment grf I dunno then)
13:20:20  <drac_boy> :)
13:20:43  <peter1138> per month?
13:20:48  <peter1138> are you playing with day length?
13:20:53  <drac_boy> nope
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14:17:02  <oskari89> How about disaster propability
14:17:15  <oskari89> It could be adjusted?
14:17:43  <oskari89> Nowadays there's too few disasters.
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14:23:20  <jasperthecat1> Occasionally, disasters happen.
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14:49:13  <peter1138> woo, restriction
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16:04:03  <Eddi|zuHause> if i were a moderator, i'd ban andy and dave from the BR-whatever topic
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16:13:23  <drac_boy> eddi hmm I can't even make sense of their weird useless replies indeed :/
16:15:28  <drac_boy> then come to think about it andynorth has been sounding drunk for a while in here too
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16:16:57  <V453000> wtf is the problem there in the first place? Someone discovered that bros is not moving for 7 years or how many?
16:24:45  <drac_boy> V453000 basically andy was "whining" about leadership and useless britishs
16:24:54  <drac_boy> bit too strange...for me -_-
16:25:13  <V453000> cant say he is wrong
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16:45:25  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: andy has been mocking and trolling the BROS development for years
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16:51:04  <Eddi|zuHause> while all that he says may be true, it's still pointless and non-constructive
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16:52:46  <longbyte1> Hi
16:54:13  <drac_boy> hi longbyte1?
16:54:37  <longbyte1> How do I improve my appalling local authority rating
16:54:52  <V453000> oh I didnt know Eddi|zuHause :) hm :)
16:55:47  <drac_boy> longbyte1 do you already have passenger vehicles running to the town or not yet?
16:56:14  <longbyte1> nop
16:56:21  <longbyte1> making a monorail
16:56:30  <drac_boy> longbyte1 oh...let me guess: you plowed over a lot of trees?
16:57:47  <drac_boy> well if you don't have any services running already your only three choices are 1. plant a lot of tree inside the townzone area 2. bribe the mayor (at a risk of being blocked out) or 3. skip that one town
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16:58:09  <TimTh3Enchant3r> when i try to build a station it is blocked off
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17:00:22  <Eddi|zuHause> longbyte1: the rating VERY SLOWLY recovers if you don't build anything in that town, and faster if you have stations that you service frequently
17:00:59  <Eddi|zuHause> longbyte1: for the next town, you should start with a bus service before you prepare the land for your station. and build the station first and then build the tracks
17:03:04  <drac_boy> heh thats one thing I wish some players could learn: when theres a lot of trees, build only station tiles first :->
17:03:59  <drac_boy> anyway need to start some lunch now :-s
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18:04:26  <Eddi|zuHause> "Exercise 10.1: Simple sets are not cylinders." <-- sometimes these things are really funny :p
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18:09:27  <andythenorth> tickety tock
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18:11:19  <Alberth> andy!
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18:11:44  <Alberth> seen my PM ?
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18:12:27  <Alberth> andythenorth:  this one :)
18:13:15  <andythenorth> Alberth: looking now ;)
18:13:22  <andythenorth> bit baby-minding right now
18:15:40  <andythenorth> Alberth: does it use any python framework?
18:15:44  <andythenorth> or raw wsgi?
18:15:51  <Alberth> bottle
18:16:11  <Alberth>
18:16:31  *** oskari892 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:16:34  <Alberth> experimenting with Python 3 ;)
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18:17:50  <andythenorth> it probably has some kind of templating thing
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18:17:55  <andythenorth> I could skin it for you, not today mind
18:19:38  <Alberth>
18:19:58  <Alberth> quite trivial :)
18:22:29  <andythenorth> straightforward :P
18:23:27  <andythenorth> hrm
18:23:52  <andythenorth> take care not to disable escaping on any user-submitted strings ;)
18:24:37  <andythenorth> oh it has a base_template
18:24:37  <andythenorth> good
18:25:07  <andythenorth> bbl
18:25:08  <andythenorth> maybe
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18:32:01  <peter1138>
18:34:27  <__ln__> .... but why?
18:34:46  <peter1138> indeed
18:37:42  <SpComb> must be a paintball arena
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18:45:48  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24913 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-01-13 18:45:36 UTC)
18:45:49  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:50  <DorpsGek> traditional_chinese - 115 changes by siu238X
18:45:51  <DorpsGek> japanese - 36 changes by kokubunzi
18:45:52  <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 33 changes by Stabilitronas
18:45:53  <DorpsGek> polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
18:45:54  <DorpsGek> serbian - 5 changes by voodoo84
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19:26:19  <Supercheese> Man, the word for "airplane" in German is cool
19:26:38  <Supercheese> then again, a lot of German words are cool
19:31:46  <Ammler> German is a kalte language
19:34:08  <peter1138> maybe 90% water was a bit too much
19:42:50  <Wolf01> 'night all
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19:51:02  <Supercheese> How is vehicle power quantized? To the nearest horsepower?
19:51:09  <Supercheese> 10hp?
19:51:25  <peter1138> quantized where?
19:51:38  <Supercheese> Smallest possible variation when defining
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19:51:54  <peter1138> for trains its 1hp
19:51:59  <Supercheese> Ah, road vehicles
19:52:01  <Supercheese> that's what you meant
19:52:08  <peter1138> for rvs it's 10hp
19:52:13  <peter1138> 1 = 10hp
19:52:18  <Supercheese> roger
19:52:24  <peter1138> dodger
19:52:32  <Supercheese> Well, my single horse is going to be a mighty powerful one, then :P
19:52:40  <peter1138> sadly so
19:53:04  <peter1138> it's cos rv power is a single byte, unfortunately
19:53:05  <peter1138> hmm
19:53:11  <Supercheese> He's either Superhorse, or so decrepit he can't even get out of the depot
19:53:54  <peter1138> should've been a word
19:54:03  <peter1138> but... patchman :S
19:54:52  <peter1138> it's in 10hp for cb36 too :-(
19:55:09  <Rubidium> but even then 1 HP is too much for one horse
19:55:20  <peter1138> float powr!
19:55:49  <Supercheese> 1 HP is above average for a single horse, yeah
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19:56:31  <Supercheese> no way to influence cornering speed of road vehicles?
19:56:42  <Supercheese> they always slow by the same ratio?
19:57:03  <Supercheese> to the same fraction of max speed* rather
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20:20:19  <Supercheese> New Eyecandy road vehicles up
20:22:27  <peter1138> iirc the calculations all convert it to KW
20:22:42  <peter1138> it's just the property that is lame
20:22:53  <Supercheese> :|
20:23:31  <frosch123> grfv9!
20:23:36  <frosch123> all 64bit, all si units
20:23:54  <Supercheese> Oh now I know why the horse is 10 hp, it's the same size as an apartment building
20:23:56  <Supercheese> :P
20:24:33  <Supercheese> Though for all its inconsistencies, the OTTD "scale" is very visually pleasing
20:25:31  <frosch123> just make it a unicorn
20:25:43  <peter1138> grfv9! all unicorns
20:25:52  <frosch123> good idea!
20:26:23  <Supercheese> Toyland2Ponyland.grf
20:26:42  <Supercheese> Downloads: 49212771167
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20:37:59  <drac_boy> hi
20:38:09  <Supercheese> Howdy
20:39:48  <drac_boy> how're you?
20:40:31  <Supercheese> Sleepy, didn't get much last night
20:42:04  <drac_boy> ic
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20:49:30  <drac_boy> well I kinda had the same thing...had a hour of nap after lunch tho :)
20:49:47  <drac_boy> been a bit lazy most of the afternoon up to now...working on kernel+tool options now tho :)
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20:55:30  <peter1138> lol @ giant screenshot
20:56:25  *** oskari892 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:59:01  <Supercheese> also the wrong forum
21:00:22  <frosch123> who? what? where? why?
21:00:48  <Rubidium> when?
21:00:52  <Supercheese>
21:00:57  <Supercheese> Warning: giant inline image
21:01:01  <frosch123> thanks, i knew i was missing something
21:01:29  <Supercheese> Oh, user is currently editing that post
21:02:07  <Supercheese> Guess my report is no longer valid :S
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21:20:14  <frosch123> night
21:20:17  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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21:46:12  * peter1138 smirks at the existence of a 2.0 thread
21:48:14  <peter1138> whatever happened to the bridge pool?
21:49:54  <Supercheese> the 2.0 thread is filled with empty wishes; people should work on something if they want to see it happen
21:50:31  <Supercheese> Before I started making grfs, I was guilty of wishing for stuff, but I got fed up of that feeling and learned NML :P
21:53:16  <__ln__> steam underground
21:53:46  <Supercheese> nice
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21:55:36  <Supercheese> poor HVAC system must've had a fit with the exhausts
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22:01:54  <Snail> 2.0 thread?
22:02:13  <Supercheese>
22:03:30  <peter1138> Supercheese, secret about the london underground: it's not all underground
22:07:21  <drac_boy> peter1138 indeed..nothing like watching tube trains running on ground level or even elevated lines :)
22:07:36  <peter1138> yeah
22:07:43  <drac_boy> actually...I think I have to rib stimrol a bit about this... running ukrs2 tube trains on ground level :P
22:08:06  <Stimrol> what?
22:09:06  <drac_boy> mm didn't think you'll be around know..these little red/white or all-white trains running at slow speed on the 3rd rail tracks? :)
22:09:31  <drac_boy> if not then you hadn't been watching enough games :p
22:09:39  <peter1138> london underground uses 4th rail!
22:10:05  <Stimrol> I pretend I understand you :)
22:10:34  <Supercheese> Did I get a refit on fake subways to above ground yet? *checks code*
22:10:53  <Supercheese> Can't even remember what I have and have not done yet :P
22:11:58  <drac_boy> peter1138 I agree but nutracks probably didn't want to introduce something parallel to 3rd rail tracks that would have little function outside uk grfs
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22:14:28  <Snail> peter1138: right now, one of OTTD's options enable us to either allow or disallow 90-degree curves from the game
22:14:41  <peter1138> yes
22:14:53  <Snail> could it be possible to add an option for each railtype to always allow 90-degrees curves, regardless of the player's choice?
22:15:04  <peter1138> why?
22:15:14  <Snail> NG has tighter curve radiuses in RL, and this could be a way to mimic this in a game
22:15:16  <drac_boy> snail if player didn't want it why should grf force it?
22:15:31  <drac_boy> theres a reason its a manual option
22:15:40  <Supercheese> GRF parameter...?
22:15:46  * Supercheese likes parameters
22:15:48  <Snail> because if we did that, NG could have an advantage over SG in the game too (same advantage that it has in RL)
22:16:17  * jasperthecat1 is right with Supercheese.
22:16:26  <peter1138> 90° bends just cause issues with routing
22:17:02  <Snail> even when it's allowed by the player?
22:17:19  <peter1138> only then
22:17:55  <Snail> so you mean that, currently, if I play OTTD allowing 90-degrees curves, I will have issued with routing?
22:18:00  <Terkhen> good night
22:18:03  <Snail> *issues not issued
22:18:57  <peter1138> dunno, may have been resolved now
22:20:36  <Snail> if it's resolved, then adding such an option wouldn't hurt...?
22:23:09  <planetmaker> it only makes sense to allow different curve speeds imho. Implementing different PF for different rails is... bad. It breaks many things
22:23:16  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... random suggestion: the (climate) availability flags currently have 4 bits free, so add these flags: 7) do not ask for prototype offer (wagons have this by default) 6) do not randomise introduction date 5) make introduction date depend on another vehicle (list of vehicle-ids in another property, minimum of all these vehicles is taken) 4) make retirement date depend on another vehicle (list like in 5, but maximum is taken)
22:23:57  <peter1138> there's compatible railtypes to consider
22:24:10  <planetmaker> e.g. the network suddently is broken, if you convert railtypes. The user has no way to check which RT has which rules.
22:26:01  <planetmaker> And I really also see little gameplay advantage over the existing different curve speed limits which you can already implement
22:26:33  <Supercheese> Yeah, you can give lots of benefits to 45° NG rails over normal rails
22:26:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm with Snail here, NG having 90° turns would be a unique advantage that brings "sense" into NG. only problem would be how to tell the user
22:27:15  <Snail> planetmaker: it wouldn't be about speed limits, since NG is about slow trains anyway
22:27:47  <Snail> it would be about tighter curves that would allow the construction of an NG network on mountainous areas, or areas that are more difficult to reach (as it is in RL)
22:28:26  <Eddi|zuHause> well you could make SG trains have like 5km/h speed limits, but you can't currently control the speed limits that fine grained (yet)
22:28:56  <peter1138> the only time i ever need 90° bends is when i misplace a depot
22:28:57  <peter1138> hmm
22:29:15  <planetmaker> ^^
22:29:49  <planetmaker> I would actually have removed that option ;-) But it breaks backward savegame capability
22:30:21  <Eddi|zuHause> it breaks ships, the setting should be split...
22:30:45  <Snail> we should have one setting per transport type (one for trains, one for ships)
22:31:39  <Snail> and this would be about adding an option to the railtype definition to "ignore the user's 90-degrees curve setting", nothing else
22:31:51  <planetmaker> that'd be very bad. -1
22:32:02  <planetmaker> "ignore user settings" is a bug implemented
22:33:21  <Snail> but even having the option of "not allowing 90-degrees curves" for all railtypes sounds fishy to me
22:33:39  <Snail> this would allow more flexibility across the railtypes
22:33:48  <planetmaker> yes. 90° should always be forbidden. Looks ugly ;-)
22:34:21  <planetmaker> And using different routing for different railtypes is not desirable. There's no control for the user I can envision to see that
22:35:14  <planetmaker> And I, as user, want to forbid trains on *every* railtype 90° turns.
22:35:27  <planetmaker> that's what the setting is for.
22:35:33  <planetmaker> And that's what I use it for.
22:36:10  <planetmaker> why would a newgrf silently break that? And send me wondering?
22:36:15  <planetmaker> (no, not readme!)
22:36:30  <Snail> readme is there to be read :p
22:37:00  <Snail> we've also got an in-game version of the readme now
22:37:19  <planetmaker> that's of no importance here really
22:37:43  <Snail> if you don't want 90-degrees turns, you would just not build them. But other users might want to exploit this feature, which comes from RL btw, so they should have the chance to
22:38:06  <Snail> otherwise NG's advantages really boil down to lower prices and eye-candy
22:38:08  <planetmaker> Snail: that assumption of yours is wrong: not building != not trains using them
22:38:19  <planetmaker> I build them for impossible ways to not be taken. Like X
22:38:34  <peter1138> simple X crossings, yeah
22:38:47  <peter1138> anyway, i don't think the pathfinder can switch mid-pathfinding
22:39:27  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: it would be a property of the vehicle's railtype, not the railtype the vehicle is on
22:39:35  <planetmaker> No, really. Pathfinder should be uniform for transport type
22:40:10  <Eddi|zuHause> so a NG vehicle on dual-gauge track can do 90°, but a SG vehicle on the same dual-gauge track can't
22:40:12  <planetmaker> And tbh, I'm quite fine with NG being low-priced eye candy. Nothing wrong with that
22:40:51  <Snail> I agree with Eddi here if this can be implemented
22:40:55  <peter1138> i think you should just allow 90° bends if you want 90° bends
22:40:56  <Supercheese> Also offer them as trams? There's yer 90° turns :P
22:41:02  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that's even worse to explain IMHO
22:41:27  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: just put it in the purchase menu "this vehicle can do 90° turns"
22:41:31  <planetmaker> yeah. Just enable 90° turns and don't build them where you don't need them ;-)
22:41:41  <Snail> why? the explanation could be, "NG trains can do 90-degrees turns"
22:41:55  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: and if I've disabled them it does them nontheless? Nah
22:42:00  <Snail> like we have tilting trains
22:42:46  <Snail> planetmaker: yes, because this would only apply to special trains. Tilting trains can do curves at a higher speed, now certain trains could do sharper bends
22:43:06  <planetmaker> Snail: NG is just a track. Nothing special. Next one allows them on funky rail. Or so. Or funky trains. Wherever (vehicle or rail) that's added. And still render the setting void. And lead to pointless wonder and bug reports
22:43:30  <planetmaker> Snail: slower doesn't change the way they can go. 90° changes *where* they go
22:43:51  <planetmaker> so that's something completely different
22:44:19  <Snail> yes, but players would know if it's written in the purchase menu, so there wouldn't be any bug reports
22:44:36  <planetmaker> no-one guarantees that it's written there
22:45:14  <Snail> well it'd be up to the newGRF developer. If he sets this specific type of trains to do 90-degree curves, he will also code the text in the purchase menu
22:45:20  <planetmaker> what stops you to just play with 90° turns enabled?
22:45:27  <planetmaker> what's wrong with that? you obviously want that
22:45:30  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the purchase menu should display more things anyway... currently it's up to the NewGRF to tell the user about tilt or railtype or...
22:45:33  <planetmaker> use it. it's there
22:45:38  <planetmaker> for you. for this purpose
22:45:56  <Snail> planetmaker: because if I put 90-degree turns, it applies to *all* railtypes and *all* trains
22:45:57  <Eddi|zuHause> and the worst thing is: NewGRF-text isn't displayed in the prototype offer
22:46:06  <Snail> while my point is to give an advantage to NG
22:46:19  <planetmaker> Snail: don't build 90° on the one where you don't want it...
22:46:28  <planetmaker> then you got the advantage there
22:46:49  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's a completely stupid argument
22:46:56  <Snail> no because of the "X" crossings
22:47:12  <Snail> the same argument you had against my idea btw :p
22:47:15  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: like "don't build fast trains, now you have an advantage for slow trains"
22:48:02  <Snail> this is why such a switch would be useful
22:48:18  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: and what's now wrong with giving a curve speed of approx 1km/h for non-NG trains and 90° and 100 km/h for NG?
22:48:25  <NGC3982> Evening, animals.
22:48:25  <planetmaker> existing concept. problem solved
22:48:36  <Snail> that wouldn't be realistic
22:48:48  <planetmaker> realism is no argument
22:48:52  <planetmaker> gameplay is.
22:48:54  <Snail> well, indeed it is
22:49:03  <planetmaker> and that is in the curve speed's favour
22:49:10  <Snail> my whole point was realism (NG has tighter curves than SG)
22:49:20  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: because you can't prevent trains from taking a X crossing, you would block it for AAAAAGES
22:49:55  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and 1km/h curve speed limit is currently NOT an existing feature
22:50:17  <Snail> planetmaker: so for the gameplay point of view, it's not advisable to put such a limit
22:50:20  <Eddi|zuHause> you can currently not define slower limits than the default railtype, only faster
22:50:20  * NGC3982 doesn't like 90 degree turns.
22:50:41  <peter1138> but 90° turns are realistic!
22:50:43  <peter1138> (what?)
22:51:09  <planetmaker> Snail: from gameplay POV different PF is the worst - you don't see the PF for single vehicles on the map overview
22:51:18  <planetmaker> and that's where you actually analyse your network
22:51:46  <Snail> peter1138: what I'm saying is that NG would have tighter radius than SG, and this is the only way to implement this in OTTD
22:54:11  <Supercheese> other than trams
22:54:33  <Supercheese> which can't do diagonals, so are bad™
22:56:41  <Eddi|zuHause> there are SG trams as well :p
22:56:49  <Snail> there are BG trams too :p
22:57:04  <Snail> toronto's trams are broad gauge for instance
22:57:10  <Eddi|zuHause> (although those always look weird to me)
22:57:55  <planetmaker> iff there should be a setting ,the sane way would be a min_curve_radius setting. with a default of 0. And you could define larger min_curve_radius for other railtypes
22:58:15  <planetmaker> it would at the same time be more versatile
22:58:29  <Snail> but it would have 2 settings
22:58:39  <Snail> allow / disallow 90-degrees curves
22:58:41  <planetmaker> (so, the "allow 90°) is by far not "the only possibility".
22:59:05  * NGC3982 could use that.
22:59:08  <planetmaker> I meant railtype property
22:59:20  <Snail> why? you mean disallowing continuous curves? such as two back-to-back 45-degrees curves?
22:59:36  <planetmaker> that's not a curve
22:59:41  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but curve radius > 1 would be difficult to check in the pathfinder
22:59:44  <peter1138> \_/
22:59:51  <planetmaker> ^^ curve
23:00:02  <peter1138> \__/
23:00:42  <Snail> \_/ would be built with 2 45-degrees curves... from diagonal to horizontal then to the other diagonal... on multiple squares
23:01:04  <planetmaker> yes. if you meant that, I didn't get it as that
23:01:06  <michi_cc> Personally I wouldn't want different 90° settings all over the place as they are not discoverable enough (== stuff you can only figure out by reading the manual or by watching your trains suddenly break because you changed railtypes).
23:01:25  <planetmaker> +1 @ michi_cc
23:01:50  <Eddi|zuHause> -0.5 @ michi_cc
23:02:00  <Snail> michi_cc:  my idea was to change nothing in the current way things are set... only to add an option for new railtypes
23:02:19  <Snail> that one, connected to the text in the purchase menu, should give the users all info they need
23:02:23  <planetmaker> haha :-) that's the point, Snail. That exactly would add them "everywhere"
23:02:24  <peter1138> +∞ @ michi_cc
23:02:31  <michi_cc> An improved curve speed property makes much more sense as the current one is basically useless (lowest value much too high).
23:02:41  <planetmaker> +1 there, too
23:02:59  <Snail> planetmaker: why everywhere? the newGRF developer should specifically set this
23:03:04  <peter1138> does curve speed even work properly yet?
23:03:13  <Snail> and no one would unless they have a specific reason (such as NG)
23:03:21  <peter1138> with regards to shorter vehicles
23:03:26  <Eddi|zuHause> 66666 posts in openttd general...
23:03:27  <planetmaker> Snail: yes. And every railtype does its own thing. Thus you need to check everywhere
23:03:36  <planetmaker> and also possibly every vehicle
23:03:39  <michi_cc> peter1138: Not really.
23:03:51  <planetmaker> Snail: "no one would"... you bet they would!
23:03:52  <peter1138> it's still done on number of parts rather than actual length then
23:04:05  <Snail> you'd only have to check in the purchase menu, nowhere else
23:04:21  <planetmaker> and check the tile's railtype etc
23:04:39  <planetmaker> everywhere
23:05:02  <Snail> not if it applies to the vehicles set on a certain railtype, instead of the railtype itself
23:05:05  <Supercheese> Crap, childsprites don't have their own bounding boxes
23:05:12  <michi_cc> It's especially only done for the part the train is on, so e.g. for a two tile train the limits is basically non-existent.
23:05:16  <planetmaker> and vehicles with compatible railtypes etc?
23:05:20  <peter1138> Supercheese, that's the whole purpose of childsprites
23:05:29  <planetmaker> which run on 14 of the 16 ones? Or which run on the "universal" railtype?
23:05:33  <Supercheese> I was just using them because they're way easier to align @_@
23:05:35  <Snail> you buy a vehicle and you check in the purchase menu. Compatible vehicles wouldn't benefit from this
23:05:46  <peter1138> do you need them to have their own bounding boxes?
23:05:47  <Supercheese> friggin a
23:05:49  <Supercheese> Yes
23:05:53  <Snail> planetmaker: it's the same example of the dual-gauge railtype Eddi gave us
23:05:55  <Supercheese> Sigh, time to re-re-realign
23:05:58  <peter1138> you're doing objects aren't you?
23:06:00  <Supercheese> yep
23:06:01  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: ONLY the railtype the vehicle is defined for
23:06:07  <peter1138> so... it doesn't really matter, surely?
23:06:09  <peter1138> wq
23:06:14  <Supercheese> I will switch to building
23:06:20  <Supercheese> just... alignment, blegh
23:06:23  <Snail> NG trains would do the curves, SG wouldn't. So, no need to check the railtype. Just the train
23:06:28  <peter1138> vehicles can't use object tiles, can they?
23:06:30  <Snail> and that's written in the purchase menu
23:06:36  <Supercheese> nope
23:06:44  <peter1138> so there's not really much sorting needed
23:06:50  <Supercheese> Oh, adjacent stuff looks strange
23:06:53  <peter1138> therefore the bounding box doesn't matter hugely
23:06:54  <planetmaker> Snail: and how do I know which of all my black steam engines now ... can do that?
23:06:57  <Supercheese> should overlap but doesn't
23:07:00  <planetmaker> when I just look at the map?
23:07:14  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: unless you add objects with statemachines (onramps, drawbridges, ...) :p
23:07:36  <Supercheese> these childsprites are a pixel or two overlapping the tile adjacent
23:07:43  <peter1138> norty
23:07:54  <Supercheese> and if you build a ship depot on the adjacent tile, they should be hidden by it, but aren't
23:07:58  <Snail> you knew when you built them. They're most likely running on networks of their own, such as NG. This would be the key of the feature
23:08:06  <Supercheese> I figure bounding boxes would sort that... no?
23:08:15  <peter1138> well a ship depot is at the back of the tile
23:08:21  <planetmaker> Snail: with 1000 vehicles I don't know... also not in a MP game. Or a game I got from s/o else
23:08:47  <Supercheese> Oh god, FISH ships are huge
23:09:03  <planetmaker> and don't assume separate networks... one network with... different branches and different RT on the branches maybe
23:09:06  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you don't know each vehicle's speedlimit or railtype or tilt flag either...
23:09:12  <Supercheese> they have way more overlap issues
23:09:27  <peter1138> none of that stops it routing
23:09:30  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: yes. But I know they all can go every tile, if I use compatible RTs
23:09:31  <peter1138> Supercheese, yes
23:09:51  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: thus I can verify my network without looking at vehicles at all
23:10:00  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: it affects routing if it's electric or battery powered
23:10:02  <Snail> planetmaker: but you don't know which railtypes they're compatible with
23:10:27  <Eddi|zuHause> or "hybrid" or "DC" or ...
23:10:28  <planetmaker> Snail: you always have to assume that there's one RT which is compatible with *every* other RT
23:10:30  <Snail> so you don't know if certain engines can go on non-electrified tracks too, if they're now running on electrified
23:10:51  <peter1138> change the advanced setting from permit/deny to permit/deny/newgrfdecides
23:10:55  <planetmaker> you don't use it. I don't. But it exists
23:11:03  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i told you already that it doesn't matter
23:11:16  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the vehicle defines which railtype it's built for
23:11:18  <peter1138> change all occurances of checking for the setting to test the railtype (which also tests the setting)
23:11:21  <peter1138> provide patch
23:11:25  <peter1138> then talk ;)
23:11:51  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: so a NG vehicle can do 90° turns on universal (multi-gauge) track, the SG vehicle can't
23:11:55  <peter1138> shouldn't be too hard
23:11:57  <Eddi|zuHause> no magic involved
23:12:37  <peter1138> i want magic :-(
23:13:13  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: then still: introduce a setting for vehicles with the min_curve_radius. And not a "allow 90°"
23:13:22  * Supercheese likes magic
23:13:44  <Snail> planetmaker: how to define min_curve_radius?
23:13:45  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's an ugly workaround, not a solution (and i also told you why)
23:15:54  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, that's not a workaround, that's extending it
23:16:19  <Eddi|zuHause> sorry, i misread, i thought i read speed limit
23:16:29  <Snail> ok... so how to define min_curve_radius?
23:16:31  <planetmaker> Snail: curve_radius is defined already... same as for curve_speed_limit
23:16:45  <peter1138> min_curve_radius would be a lot more work
23:16:52  <planetmaker> it would indeed
23:17:05  <peter1138> i don't think curve radius is a pathfinder penalty, is it?
23:17:23  <Eddi|zuHause> no
23:17:29  <planetmaker> not sure...  guess not
23:19:41  <planetmaker> Snail:
23:20:05  <Snail> yes I was looking at it now...
23:20:27  <Snail> but this obviously doesn't include 90-degrees turns, does it?
23:20:39  <peter1138> so?
23:20:46  <peter1138> why not?
23:21:17  <planetmaker> the author there simply didn't care. Of course it applies
23:21:29  <peter1138> curve length in tiles = 0
23:23:15  <Snail> you mean this?
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23:26:46  * Supercheese wishes sprites would magically align themselves
23:27:25  <planetmaker> write a script, Supercheese. I'm sure it's feasible. For some cases ;-)
23:27:33  <Supercheese> @_@
23:28:32  <Supercheese> Perhaps I'm being somewhat of a perfectionist...
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23:33:59  <peter1138> Snail, related to that, yes
23:34:22  <Snail> then I think it would be an interesting feature
23:34:40  <Snail> but harder to implement than just a switch to allow 90-degrees curves, I presume?
23:35:26  <peter1138> yup
23:39:05  <Snail> any pathfinding issues with this one (i.e. setting a min curve radius)?
23:41:37  <planetmaker> same as with the other one. or even more. But the "better" setting as more general
23:43:01  <Snail> this one would be even harder to explain for a newGRF author
23:43:16  <Snail> just allowing 90-degrees curves could be explained through some text in the purchase window
23:43:45  <Snail> this one instead would require more... such as "This vehicle can do 90-degrees turns", "This vehicle can't do two consecutive 45-degrees turns" etc
23:45:40  <Snail> but my guess is that curve_length=1 should always be allowed, otherwise trains couldn't enter a depot that's perpendicular to a stretch of track
23:46:06  <Snail> we should build longer tracks going into the depot if we disallowed curve_length=1
23:48:12  <drac_boy> snail both first-time human and many AI always build depot right by the track dunno what to say about that :->
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23:48:38  <drac_boy> neverminding the ones that build depot in front of the 2-platform station junction too (although I guess that was in TT tutorials too)
23:48:39  <Snail> exactly, that's what I was thinking about
23:49:00  <Snail> it would be a nice extension, but how useful?
23:49:05  <drac_boy> mm
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23:51:29  <NGC3982> I think i, for the first time, almost burned my girl friends house down today
23:52:13  <Supercheese> I hope you're not planning for a second time :O
23:53:26  <NGC3982> Due to a faulty light bulb in her bathroom, i put a live candle in there
23:53:39  <NGC3982> Right under the bathroom mirror cabinette
23:53:44  <NGC3982> Not the best thing ive ever done.
23:54:51  <peter1138> oh dear
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23:57:03  <NGC3982> We luckily found it before anything catched fire
23:57:21  <NGC3982> But the cabinette was ruined, and i have spent the day reparing it
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