Log for #openttd on 15th January 2013:
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01:38:43  <peter1138> hmm
01:38:51  <peter1138> saveload works better when you put it in the right _desc :s
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01:41:30  <Supercheese> Who's that Pokémon? *da na na*
01:41:34  <Supercheese> It's... Flygon!
01:41:40  <Supercheese> :P
01:42:08  <Flygon> 'gon?
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01:44:04  <peter1138> ^_^
01:44:08  <Supercheese> Hmm, there's clearly something in object_cmd.cpp that's misbehaving, but I can't seem to sort out what it is...
01:44:48  * Flygon like, makes Flygon noises all over Supercheese... when finds Supercheese delicious :U
01:45:46  <Supercheese> New Pokémon games, sheesh they just keep making them
01:45:58  <Supercheese> As long as there's money I guess
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01:49:53  <peter1138> yay, separating train routes by speed ;p
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01:50:28  <peter1138> although the displayspeed to speed stuff appears to be wrong
01:50:32  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a patch for that...
01:50:49  <Supercheese> Great, two bugs now I'm trying to find a fix for now and failing... admittedly this is my first muck around in the source
01:51:09  <Supercheese> well, other than applying existing patches
01:51:28  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, is it actually wrong or am i using it wrong?
01:51:34  <peter1138> i never used conditional orders
01:51:50  <peter1138> Supercheese, so what's the bug?
01:51:58  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: no idea what you're trying to do
01:52:00  <Supercheese> One is
01:52:19  <Supercheese> The other is an object's sound effect only plays in Temperate, and not in Arctic or Tropic
01:52:34  <Supercheese> I have no climate-specific code at all
01:53:32  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, conditional orders on max speed
01:53:49  <Supercheese> Maybe MakeWaterKeepingClass is doing something wrong...
01:54:52  <Supercheese> Yeah I think that might be it
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01:56:35  <Eddi|zuHause> ok... something just broke horribly while clicking on that link...
01:56:41  <Supercheese_> which now?
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01:59:36  <Eddi|zuHause> any link it seems...
01:59:47  <Supercheese_> bah, my IRC seems to have freaked out
01:59:53  <Eddi|zuHause> kde-open or xdg-open is seriously broken :/
02:01:40  <Supercheese_> Maybe never having done anything with NickServ was a bad idea...
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02:02:57  <Supercheese_> There we go
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02:19:28  <Flygon> OpenTTD needs a "Dust and Dirt" feature :p
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02:19:41  <Supercheese> that would be provided by grf likely
02:19:52  <Supercheese> change graphics based on days since last service or whatnot
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02:28:01  <Supercheese> What are these 'bitcoins'? Googling...
02:28:23  <Supercheese> PayPal-ish?
02:28:47  <Supercheese> Indepent currency?
02:28:50  <Supercheese> Independent*
02:30:29  <Supercheese> Cut out the middle man, interesting
02:33:09  <Eddi|zuHause> something that was The Hype about a year ago
02:33:20  <Supercheese> died down since then?
02:34:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it "died", but the hype curve certainly slowed down
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02:40:47  <Eddi|zuHause> so is SkiddLow really this unintelligent as he appears or is there just something lost in translation?
02:40:58  <Supercheese> potentially some combination of both
02:41:10  <Supercheese> a shade of grey, so to speak
02:41:13  <Eddi|zuHause> "i create this project. now you guys go ahead and produce content for my project"
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02:53:54  <Flygon> Supercheese: Well, if Australia ever gets a railset... this's happening :p
02:54:04  <Flygon> But it needs to count more than just days...
02:54:09  <Flygon> Should count kilometers travelled too
02:54:15  <Supercheese> do an inventory of available variables
02:54:24  <Supercheese>
02:55:38  <Supercheese> date_of_last_service  is available
02:56:07  <Supercheese> I don't immediately see any method to find distance traveled since last service
02:56:19  <Flygon> Hmm
02:56:21  <Flygon> That's an issue
02:56:29  <Supercheese> depends if registers/temp storage can be (ab)used
02:56:58  <Supercheese> some hack like incrementing a temp_storage whenever motion_counter increases in value could theoretically count distance
02:56:59  <Flygon> Having it just date based has issues such as... for example, a loco in the sidings doing nothing at all getting dusty
02:57:05  <Flygon> Even if it's in the middle of port :p
02:57:13  <Flygon> As in, in the middle of an ocean port
02:57:55  <Supercheese> that could potentially destroy performance by forcing a zillion calculations all the time, though
02:58:19  * Flygon thinks
02:58:20  <Flygon> ...
02:58:28  * Flygon nah, that's impossible too
02:58:44  <Flygon> Was gonna suggest it only happen on Snowy or Desert terrain
02:58:53  <Flygon> But that's also impractical to implement
02:58:55  <Supercheese> don't think there's a way to check that
02:59:01  <Flygon> Indeed
02:59:09  <Supercheese> I could be wrong, though
02:59:15  <Supercheese> that list is non-exhaustive
02:59:37  * Flygon nod
02:59:51  <Flygon> Either way, one thing's more important first anyway
03:00:05  <Flygon> An Aussie railset that isn't just New South Welsh trains actually happening :p
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03:02:38  <Supercheese> Yes, well, minor details ;)
03:04:47  <Supercheese> I'm thinking about adding SkiddLow to my ignore list...
03:05:22  <Supercheese> Lemme check if he has ever contributed anything, that should decide
03:05:56  <Supercheese> anything... outside of off-topic that is
03:06:26  <Supercheese> Gah, just noticed a horrible typo I made back in July
03:07:03  <Supercheese> Hmm, he does have screenshots
03:10:21  <Supercheese> Seems he contributed some sprites:
03:13:26  <Supercheese> Ok, I think the problem detailed in FS#5441 may be with the MakeWaterKeepingClass function in water_cmd.cpp
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03:14:42  <Supercheese> attempting a fix...
03:17:19  <Supercheese> Hmm, the compiler doesn't aggressively notify when compilation is finished :(
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03:33:35  <Supercheese> Yep, problem identified
03:34:24  <Supercheese> This might be a discussion better carried on in ...
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04:10:21  <Supercheese> Dang, I love the comments in OTTD source
04:10:25  <Supercheese> so well documented
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08:11:24  <kamnet> Would a developer be interested in creating a forum post describing the current outstanding issues with porting to MacOS X and what they're looking for in assistance? If one would, I could then post a link to the forum in a couple of Mac & programming forums I know of and can try to fish for some fresh help.
08:13:58  <__ln__> this list gives some hint about it:
08:15:42  <kamnet> I thought of that, but just throwing out bug reports is likely to get somebody to look at it, shrug, mutter "sucks to be them" and go away.
08:20:56  <__ln__> i don't think you can expect much more than the same list from developers either, realistically.
08:22:21  <kamnet> That's why I mentioned more than just list of bugs.
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08:30:15  <kamnet> AH! I thought there was already such a page, I just couldn't locate it earlier:
08:30:39  <kamnet> If a dev doesn't mind making sure that's up-to-date, I can use that. Thank you!
08:30:56  <peter1138> why don't you?
08:32:42  <Supercheese> peter1138: I have some questions about water_cmd.cpp and object_cmd.cpp, do you have some time for a discussion?
08:32:46  <kamnet> Because I know absolutely nothing about the outstanding bugs, or exactly what the developers are looking for when it comes to assistance. Nor can I edit the post since I didn't make it :D
08:34:10  <kamnet> If that information is up to date, however, I can pass that on to people who may be interested in assisting.
08:34:46  <peter1138> Supercheese, not much time
08:34:47  <__ln__> kamnet: i guess the interest must come from those people's own interest in the game.
08:34:59  <Supercheese> ok, some other time or with someone else, then :)
08:37:39  <__ln__> as far as i understand, occassinally there have been "interested" "people" whose skill level is on the level of "i own a mac, installed xcode tools, and i know how to write a hello world program". may not be quite enough.
08:38:28  <peter1138> we aren't looking for assistance
08:38:45  <peter1138> if someone is really interested they'll know what to do
08:38:47  <Supercheese> Mac users can still run OTTD with some windows emulation or whatever, no?
08:39:03  <Supercheese> WINE, IIRC
08:39:07  <peter1138> but nobody is
08:39:15  <peter1138> __ln__ gets it
08:41:03  <kamnet> So I just say, "Hey, bugs!" and knowledgeable individuals will just start flocking?
08:41:17  <peter1138> no
08:41:27  <peter1138> but they're not intereste
08:41:28  <peter1138> +D
08:41:37  <Supercheese> Knowledge is insufficient, motivation is mandatory
08:42:32  <kamnet> How do you know they're not interested?
08:42:37  <__ln__> kamnet: you just say: "yo, this is the best game for macintosh, yo, take a look and get addicted"
08:45:13  <kamnet> Uh-huh.
08:46:12  <Supercheese> Best game period, not just for Mac ;)
08:48:26  <kamnet> I'll just ask Rubidium directly.
08:49:24  <__ln__> kamnet: umm... don't.
08:49:57  <kamnet> And, praytell, why not?
08:55:10  <Flygon> __ln__: Most addictive Macintosh game is Ragnarok Online under Wine... or: How to shut your teenage son up for 18 months
08:55:21  <Flygon> At the risk of never seeing him againn
08:55:35  <Flygon> OpenTTD is 0.01% less addictive :B
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09:10:58  <__ln__> kamnet: because mr. R doesn't actually want to get Mac things fixed, he wants to have the issues so he can keep telling how much OS X sucks.
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09:33:06  <Flygon> Does OpenTTD work in WINE?
09:33:14  <Supercheese> dunno
09:33:30  <Flygon> Well, time to find out :p
09:34:31  <Flygon> I actually once looked into using WINE on Windows to use the 16-bit Civilization II
09:34:58  <Flygon> Ended up giving up and just using a lot of .exe patches to achieve the end result (no pretty getinfo.exe stuff, though :( )
09:47:37  <kamnet> I don't see why it woudn't run under wine
09:47:52  <Supercheese> try champagne instead :P
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10:16:42  <peter1138>
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10:37:09  <Supercheese> so, Google translate seems to indicate the train was stolen?
10:37:27  <Supercheese> via Google translate, the article does anyway
10:38:51  <__ln__> stolen by a cleaner female person
10:39:22  <Supercheese> "She has been arrested on suspicion of devastation endangering the public."
10:39:48  <Supercheese> devastation endangering, hehe
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10:52:22  <V453000> I have talked a lot about stuff like this with devs on irc, and I can tell you for sure that they have strong thoughts about doing it.  Can't wait for v2.0. <<<----  MADE MY DAY :DDDD
10:52:23  <V453000> :DD
10:52:49  <V453000>
10:53:02  <V453000> did you troll that guy hardcore or did he just talk in some other channel ? :D
10:54:08  <V453000> oh wait that is what andy wrote
10:54:15  <V453000> wrong quotes .. :)
10:54:40  <Pinkbeast> Or "dev" == anyone who ever looked at the source code
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10:55:41  <V453000> nah this was just from andy so it was more like nobody :)
10:55:49  <V453000> still, amazing thread :D
10:55:53  <peter1138> and then they talk about bitcoins
10:56:00  <peter1138> worthless crap
10:56:37  <blathijs> Amazing indeed: "removal of other transport modes which are not trains. The things like ships are just a nasty hack, because the game was made for trains, and the other types are kind of just a perversion of the codebase"
10:56:57  <blathijs> Even better, followed by "(noobs won't understand this, but I have read at least 9,000 lines of the actual codez so I know wot I discourse about)."
10:57:06  <blathijs> This guy has the skillz! :-)
10:58:04  <peter1138> it's misquoted from andy's post on the previous page
10:58:13  <peter1138> andythetroll
10:59:58  <V453000> yeah :)
11:00:21  <V453000> honestly, that thread is deemed to be worthless from the beginning
11:00:27  <V453000> where else to troll :D
11:00:30  <peter1138> of course
11:00:47  <peter1138> i do wonder how the new map array is going
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11:02:24  <peter1138> it's blathijs' fault
11:05:21  <peter1138>
11:05:33  <peter1138> probably the best post ever about the new map array
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11:07:30  <V453000> no clue what that is (I am hopefully safe)
11:07:46  <V453000> I guess some -array- of values like heights, x, y, stuff
11:08:08  <peter1138> it's a long running "joke" now
11:08:22  <peter1138> the map array is where tile data is kept
11:09:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the "new map array" is the holy grail for every missing unimplementable feature :p
11:10:29  <blathijs> We actually had a big part of a new map array designed at some point
11:10:31  <Eddi|zuHause> custom bridge heads? "needs new map array". underground railway? "needs new map array". programmable signals? "needs new map array"
11:10:55  <peter1138> signals under bridges? needs a new map array
11:10:58  <peter1138> (except it didn't)
11:11:11  <blathijs> but during implementation we ended up spending way too much time on all kinds of cleanups (I remember rewriting the different coordinate conversions to make more sense) :-)
11:11:19  <Eddi|zuHause> we've had several smaller redesigns/extensions of "the map array"
11:11:32  <peter1138> how long will it take to warm 120m³ of air from 14°C to 18°C with a 2000W heater?
11:11:33  <V453000> :)
11:13:00  <Eddi|zuHause> pV=nRT?
11:13:22  <peter1138>
11:13:23  <peter1138> :D
11:13:28  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, does it?
11:13:53  <peter1138> sad that that work was 4 years ago
11:14:22  <peter1138> custom bridge heads? screw that :D
11:14:53  <V453000> I know SmatZ even had a video somewhere
11:15:00  <Eddi|zuHause> the last attempt of custom bridge heads actually came to the conclusion that we need to switch to C++ :p
11:15:08  <peter1138> V453000, same directory
11:15:14  <V453000> oh right :)
11:15:33  <blathijs> peter1138: (4K * 12 m3 * 1297  J/m3/K) / 2000W = 311 seconds
11:15:34  <Eddi|zuHause> then we actually did that, but we didn't get any closer to custom bridge heads
11:16:00  <peter1138> blathijs, uhhh
11:16:14  <peter1138> 120 :)
11:16:14  <blathijs> peter1138: (That's actually from 0° C to 4°, but 14-18 is probably similar)
11:16:15  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: have you checked that "rewrite of tunnelbridgeenterproc [or so]" by hackalittlekid? it may be preliminary work for actual custom bridge heads
11:16:24  <blathijs> peter1138: Oh, the result is with 120, I mistyped in IRC only
11:16:35  <peter1138> 311 seconds seems a bit short
11:16:38  <Eddi|zuHause> *hackalittlebit"
11:16:47  <peter1138> pretty sure more than 5 minutes
11:16:47  <blathijs> peter1138: Yeah, to me as well :-)
11:16:57  <Eddi|zuHause> mixed in some hackykid in there, big mistake :p
11:17:08  <blathijs> peter1138: I got the 1297 value from
11:18:08  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, Celestar_ was the last person dealing with CBH
11:18:14  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, mine was YEARSSSSSSSSSSS ago
11:18:20  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: yes
11:18:22  <peter1138> and i think it's too hacky :p
11:19:31  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: hackalittlebit is the guy who made the silly/hacky "signals on bridges" patch, but he also published this rewrite, which may be useful for The Real Thing (TM)
11:20:39  <peter1138> we already have a tile that handles everything people want from CBH
11:20:57  <peter1138> we just need a way to end bridges
11:21:06  <peter1138> without needing a bridge tile
11:21:40  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and the tunnelbridgeenterproc may be a step towards that
11:22:02  <peter1138> if you get rid of bridge end tiles then there is no tunnelbridgeenterproc :p
11:22:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it controls the "step" for the vehicle into the wormhole
11:22:35  <Eddi|zuHause> you still need that if you don't have bridgeheads ;)
11:23:21  <peter1138> pfft, no worm holes ;p
11:23:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't looked at it in-depth, but from what i remember the issue was that this step was done still on the bridgehead tile, while this rewrite moves it to the step off the bridgehead tile
11:24:56  <peter1138> in my original bridges-over-crap patch (before wormholes) i added z-pos to the pathfinder, heh
11:25:22  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: well the next step could be renaming "wormhole mode" to "non-surface-mode" and then you could have a special vehicle-enter-tile which handles movement in rollercoasters :p
11:25:37  <V453000> :DD
11:27:38  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, gtg
11:30:46  <peter1138> blathijs, been about an hour so far and not much difference :p
11:32:54  <blathijs> peter1138: I wonder where the error in the calculation is, then
11:33:53  <blathijs> peter1138: I could imagine the energy not being evenly spread (the heater itself is probably > 50° and the air around the heater already > 18°), but that wouldn't explain a difference from 5 minutes to > 1 hours I think
11:34:27  <peter1138> something about J and W
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11:35:31  <drac_boy> hi
11:38:58  <blathijs> peter1138: W = J/s, right?
11:40:11  <blathijs> Perhaps the room is loosing heat at a rate close to 2000W as well?
11:40:25  <peter1138> possibly
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12:01:16  <dihedral> oi
12:01:52  <Pinkbeast> Also, you're trying to warm up the walls.
12:03:51  <blathijs> Pinkbeast: Ah, indeed (which might very well be even colder than 14°, especially near the outside
12:03:55  <blathijs> )
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12:06:31  <peter1138> i miscalced, it's about 180m³
12:06:41  <peter1138> but yeah, losses make up the difference
12:08:24  <peter1138> it'll be warming up the cold radiators too :p
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12:22:36  <peter1138> i guess i won't be upgrading this machine to wheezy
12:47:35  <NGC3982> 04:13 < Supercheese> Ok, I think the problem detailed in FS#5441 may be with the MakeWaterKeepingClass function in water_cmd.cpp
12:47:41  <NGC3982> That hilighted me.
12:48:00  <NGC3982> And i have no idea why :3
12:55:27  <drac_boy> heh?
12:58:20  <peter1138> this restrictions patch touches so many files :-(
13:01:11  <peter1138> and it's not complete :p
13:05:31  <NGC3982> So, it's a good train day here in Sweden
13:05:57  <NGC3982> A cleaning lady took control over a C10/C11 regional wagon and drove it into a house.
13:06:00  <NGC3982> ..
13:07:16  <peter1138> yeah we know
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13:33:30  <Celestar> yahoo
13:37:07  <dihedral> o/
13:44:02  <heffer> any nml maintainer here?
13:44:44  <heffer> i'd love to have this patch applied:
13:45:20  <heffer> background: Fedora is switching from PIL to pillow for the Fedora 19 release cycle. this patch makes nml compatible with both PIL and pillow
13:45:31  <heffer> see:
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13:52:34  <planetmaker> heffer: can you open an issue at the NML tracker?
13:53:08  <planetmaker> making it compatible with other image libraries than the badly maintained PIL is a very nice step though :-)
13:54:40  <planetmaker> hm, and thanks for making me aware of pillow :D
13:54:49  <planetmaker> something I think I might have searched for before in vain
13:55:23  <heffer>
13:56:12  <heffer> i didn't know anything about it until this bug was opened against my nml package as well
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14:09:34  <NGC3982> Secondary industries doesn't have a production limit, right?
14:09:39  <NGC3982> In the latest FIRS.
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14:34:14  <Belugas> hello
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14:40:14  <Bad_Brett>
14:49:27  <NGC3982> Yeah, i know.
14:49:37  <NGC3982> The Swedish Trafikverket has a really bad day.
14:49:46  <Bad_Brett> Yeah...
14:54:06  <peter1138> well that's not good
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15:10:51  <peter1138> hmm
15:10:57  <peter1138> it's okay to reuse strings from one window in another, right?
15:11:06  <peter1138> same context
15:12:40  <planetmaker> depends on which kind of string :-)
15:12:57  <planetmaker> as you may know, it may be the same in English, but not in other languages
15:13:05  <planetmaker> So.. rather introduce a new string, if in doubt
15:13:24  <planetmaker> Exceptions rather IMHO are buttons like 'ok', 'cancel' etc
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15:15:09  <peter1138> same context, as i said ;)
15:15:35  <peter1138> conditional stuff, so some of the order window strings are appropriate
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16:07:26  <peter1138> hi
16:14:07  <kamnet> Hola
16:14:26  <peter1138> hi
16:14:34  <peter1138> moo moo
16:14:39  <peter1138> justified ancients of
16:21:27  <kamnet> KLF. Uh-huh, uh-huh.
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16:54:59  <SimKill> Hello all!
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17:49:37  <Terkhen> hello
17:49:55  <kamnet> HEEEELOOOOOO WORLD!
17:50:29  <NGC3982> This has not been a good day.
17:51:00  <NGC3982> Huge traffic accident, huge absurd train accident, and a good friend of mine has been shot to death.
17:51:18  <NGC3982> 0 points to Sweden.
17:51:31  <kamnet> I'm very sorry to hear. :-(
17:52:01  <Pinkbeast> Er but wasn't the accident in Egypt?
17:52:09  <NGC3982> Egypt?
17:52:31  <Pinkbeast>
17:52:53  <NGC3982> My god
17:52:55  <NGC3982> That too?
17:53:10  <Pinkbeast> As well as what?
17:53:32  <Pinkbeast> I mean, what is the train accident to which you allude?
17:53:40  <NGC3982> "President Mohammed Morsi named a new transportation minister on 6 January in an effort to improve railway safety. The post had been left vacant in the aftermath of an accident that killed 49 kindgergarten pupils in November 2012 when a speeding train hit their school bus."
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17:53:44  <NGC3982> I did not even know that.
17:54:24  <NGC3982> Pinkbeast: Nothing as gruesome as the one you just showed me. A Swedish cleaning lady stole a regional train and derailed.
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18:09:50  <SimKill> Guys, why does my coal mine load only one train even though there are two in the station?
18:10:19  <Nat_aS> because there is only enough coal for one?
18:10:38  <SimKill> oh
18:11:37  <SimKill> well, the mine has 106 ores per month
18:11:57  <SimKill> scratch that 117 ores per month
18:12:19  <SimKill> yet my 5 wagon train does only serial loading
18:13:12  <kamnet> It should only load one train at a time. Once the first train leaves, it should be loading the next train that came in.
18:13:26  <SimKill> yes that's what it does
18:13:41  <SimKill> so basically there's no point in having more than 2 stations for coalmines
18:14:08  <SimKill> so, do all stations load serially?
18:14:47  <kamnet> Do you have two distinct/separate stations at this mine?
18:15:05  <kamnet> Or one station with separated platforms?
18:15:23  <SimKill> one station two platforms, and directional rails
18:15:43  <SimKill> (i.e. one to, and one from the plant)
18:16:20  <kamnet> Then yes, that station is going to load serially.
18:16:32  <SimKill> ok
18:16:51  <SimKill> but if I place two one track stations side by side? will that make a difference?
18:16:52  <kamnet> Now, if you had two separate stations, then when the mine distributes, it would distribute to both stations, but most likely not equally.
18:17:46  <kamnet> by separate stations, I mean "Station A" and "Station B", two distinct and different destinations.
18:18:04  <SimKill> ah I see
18:20:23  <kamnet> In that scenario which train gets how much depends on which industry set you're playing with (stock, ecs, pikkabird, or firs), station ratings, how close the final destination is, train age, etc.
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18:20:55  <SimKill> oh wow
18:21:04  <SimKill> I just picked this game up 3 days ago
18:21:09  <SimKill> no idea it was so deep
18:21:47  <kamnet> The economic calculations are fairly sophisticated. I typically don't worry much about any of it though.
18:22:31  <SimKill> okay
18:22:40  <kamnet> Unless I just want to see cargo separated by final destination, I'll only use one station and have multiple vehicles queue. This helps to keep your station rating higher, since there's likely to be a vehicle always waiting to take delivery.
18:23:12  <NGC3982> There is no way to change station loading from serial to pararell?
18:23:25  <kamnet> No.
18:23:26  <hanshoi> hello. Is there some knowledge here what could be wrong with my dedicated server? I have the required ports open for game, master server and admin. It can't advertise. I can see it locally. But people can't connect to it.
18:23:48  <NGC3982> kamnet: Dag nabbit.
18:24:19  <NGC3982> I think it's time i fix that advertise thingy for my server.
18:24:21  <SimKill> so then why do so many tutorials have HUGE multi platform layouts
18:24:34  <SimKill> isn't 2 platform layout the most efficient then?
18:24:43  <Maedhros> can't you make trains load in parallel by turning off 'Improved loading'?
18:24:52  <Maedhros> i don't really know why you'd want to though...
18:24:55  <kamnet> NGC2982: You can simulate parallel it by building separate stations next to each other (ctrl-click).
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18:25:27  <NGC3982> kamnet: What? You mean simply building the same station with empty tiles between them?
18:25:33  <NGC3982> I did not know that.
18:26:07  <NGC3982>
18:26:16  <NGC3982> As far as i know, that does not affect the way the trains load?
18:26:20  <kamnet> No, they have to be distinctly separate stations. But with ctrl-click you can place to separate stations directly next to each other, w/o spaces between them.
18:26:57  <NGC3982> Ah, as i thought.
18:27:00  <NGC3982> Well
18:27:09  <kamnet> From your screenshot, you can build Cadham Forest and Cadham South next to each other. If you do that, the mine will distribute ore to both of them at the same time.
18:27:56  <kamnet> However, if you have only Cadham Smith (two platforms of the same station separated by grass) and two trains on them, only one train will be loaded at a time.
18:38:13  <kamnet> Oh, wait... I just read Maedhros' comment. Yes! *sighs* I've played with "improved loading" on for so long I forgot about it.
18:39:16  <kamnet> If you go into advanced settings -> Stations-> Cargo Handling and turn off "Improved Loading", two trains will load in parallel. But, not equally.
18:40:58  <NGC3982> I see
18:41:02  <NGC3982> But will it load "more"?
18:43:22  <Terkhen> hanshoi: try to see if your opened ports can actually be seen from outside your lan
18:44:02  <kamnet> What do you mean by "more"?
18:44:45  <NGC3982> kamnet: If i have four equal trains on a four track station loading with or without the setting on, will i notice a change in production?
18:45:02  <NGC3982> Does it affect how much is transported, that is.
18:45:11  <NGC3982> Or is that acounted for.
18:45:38  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24916 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-01-15 18:45:27 UTC)
18:45:39  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:40  <DorpsGek> catalan - 49 changes by Bassals
18:45:41  <DorpsGek> traditional_chinese - 150 changes by siu238X
18:45:42  <DorpsGek> hebrew - 134 changes by taleinat
18:45:43  <DorpsGek> korean - 16 changes by telk5093
18:45:44  <DorpsGek> serbian - 49 changes by ivan_mile
18:47:00  <kamnet> NGC2982: there are several variables that affect production changes. Station rating will likely be your biggest influence, and in that case it is probably best to leave "Improved loading" on. It fills one train at a time, which means that train is leaving faster and making delivery faster, while at the same time leaving other vehicles at the station queued
18:47:31  <kamnet> If there were no vehicles waiting at the station and cargo starts to build up, your station rating will drop. If it drops below 50% ,then you will have cargo start to disappear. .
18:47:34  <NGC3982> Yeah, i guess so.
18:48:21  <kamnet> More delivery & more demand from destinations, your production may start to increase.
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18:49:50  <kamnet> Whether or not this is the most beneficial for you, though, entirely depends on your own individual game play and goals.
18:51:48  <kamnet> If you're playing the game as originally intended, which is to make the most money as you can by 2050, it's probably best to stick with improved loading and one station.
18:54:23  <NGC3982> I see.
18:54:29  <NGC3982> Thank you.
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19:10:24  <hanshoi> Terkhen: that online tool doesn't find it. However nmap says they are open. Then again that's local network.
19:11:05  * peter1138 flollops in
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19:27:55  <planetmaker> peter1138, despite similar context, I'd advise against re-use of strings except trivial strings
19:28:05  <planetmaker> anything involving two words isn't trivial ;-)
19:28:25  <planetmaker> strings also got a name for a reason ;-)
19:28:43  <Supercheese> Salvete
19:28:46  <peter1138> STR_ORDER_CONDITIONAL_*
19:28:55  <peter1138> context is exactly the same
19:32:37  <Terkhen> hanshoi: if the online tool does not find the ports as opened, OpenTTD master server and your players won't see it either
19:33:26  <Terkhen> did you forward those ports in your router?
19:33:31  <hanshoi> Terkhen: I solved the problem just a moment ago.
19:33:39  <Terkhen> ok, good to hear that :)
19:34:15  <hanshoi> problem was that I'm inside a university network which apparently blocks some trafic. So finding a "common" port worked.
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19:34:38  <hanshoi> finally can the games begin ;)
19:36:28  <Supercheese> I've got some questions about water_cmd.cpp and object_cmd.cpp that would probably be best asked in -- I was given voice there once but I was silly and hadn't registered with Nickserv, so I guess I have to ask again...
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19:36:40  <peter1138> ask here
19:36:48  * Supercheese asks
19:36:48  <peter1138> is pointless hand waving
19:37:23  <Supercheese> Ok, regarding
19:38:00  <Supercheese> Newobjects on river slopes, when they are cleared with the dynamite tool, the river beneath is destroyed, unlike with all other water tiles where the water is preserved
19:38:19  <Supercheese> As in my comment, it seems to be the fault of the  MakeWaterKeepingClass function in water_cmd.cpp
19:38:46  <Supercheese> the question is, why does line 173 always set wc = WATER_CLASS_INVALID;
19:38:53  <Supercheese>  if (GetTileSlope(tile, &z) != SLOPE_FLAT)
19:38:57  <NGC3982> That hilight again.
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19:40:14  * Alberth waves hi
19:40:27  <Supercheese> Hmm, you just missed my question
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19:40:54  <peter1138> did you check the svn log?
19:41:04  <Supercheese> not since 1:30 last night
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19:42:14  <Supercheese> ah, you mean earlier commits
19:42:20  * Alberth wonders how you can miss a question that you don't need :p
19:43:14  <Alberth> but yeah, look in the history how and why that line was added
19:44:36  <Supercheese> diving through logs...
19:45:12  <Supercheese> comment mentions autoslope
19:46:45  <peter1138> r13838
19:46:58  <frosch123> Supercheese: riverslopes are only valid on 4 of 15 slopes
19:47:11  <frosch123> converting other slopes into riverslopes will likely crash ottd
19:47:30  <frosch123> mind that you can autoslope under objects and thus turn previously valid water slopes into invalid water slopes
19:48:17  <Supercheese> Yes indeed
19:48:27  <Supercheese> although it doest crash, just glitches
19:48:30  <Supercheese> doesn't*
19:48:30  <peter1138> would it suffice to add a check that the current slope is valid?
19:48:39  <michi_cc> I guess it could check for those valid slopes.
19:48:56  <peter1138> it's possible then to abuse an object to change the slope
19:49:04  <Supercheese> Hmm, trunk behavior allows autoslope under objects on river slopes
19:49:08  <peter1138> is that actually a problem though :)
19:49:10  <Supercheese> and a glitch
19:49:45  <peter1138> or am i missing what autoslopes are again
19:49:50  <Supercheese> Yeah, that's another bug
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19:50:11  <Supercheese> Build object on river slope, raise/lower land around it, glitch
19:50:17  <Supercheese> r24916
19:50:37  <frosch123> if it's the object that glitches, then it's a bug of the newgrf
19:50:49  <Supercheese> yes, potentially
19:51:35  <andythenorth> I vote that it's your fault Supercheese
19:51:52  <Supercheese> for the autoslope, probably :)
19:52:45  <Supercheese> still thinking the clearing problem is a OTTD issue
19:53:27  <frosch123> hmm, might be an issue of ottd nevertheless
19:53:41  <frosch123> seems like ottd enables autoslope by default unless the object disables it
19:53:47  <frosch123> i would expect the reverse
19:54:08  <Supercheese> Yes, disallowing autoslope prevents the glitching
19:54:53  <Supercheese> Huh, the build-cost problem seems to have been resolved as well
19:55:06  <Supercheese> again, likely a grf bug
19:55:49  <frosch123> hmm, looks like allow-autoslope by default is in fact intentional
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19:55:55  <frosch123> industries do the same :)
19:56:37  <Supercheese> well, it's related to drawing foundations or not
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19:56:55  <Supercheese> no foundations but no good ground-tile check + autoslope tends to be glitchy
19:57:35  <Supercheese> more grf fault than OTTD
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20:00:51  <frosch123> Supercheese: are you playing with invisible trees?
20:00:59  <frosch123> maybe your cost comes from clearing trees
20:01:09  <Supercheese> All cost issues were faults of the grf
20:01:31  <Supercheese> only remaining issue is river being destroyed when object above is dynamited
20:02:41  *** drac_boy [] has joined #openttd
20:02:45  <drac_boy> hi
20:03:34  <Supercheese> Perhaps objects were never intended to be placed on river slopes :P
20:04:27  <frosch123> the code originates from industries
20:05:02  <frosch123> building industries at coast was considered, but building industries on rivers slopes was forgotten
20:06:13  <Supercheese> well the object code just calls MakeWaterKeepingClass on demolition, expecting that function to take care of all watery stuff
20:06:31  <frosch123> well, that is fine :)
20:06:36  <Supercheese> yeah
20:06:36  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
20:06:44  <frosch123> it just needs to know that rivers can exist on 4 slopes, while other water classes cannot
20:06:47  <Wolf01> hello o/
20:06:56  <drac_boy> hi Wolf01
20:06:57  <frosch123> (well, technically sea can exist also on 4 slopes)
20:07:15  <Supercheese> coast qualifies as "sloped water"?
20:07:29  <frosch123> coast are sloped sea
20:07:33  <frosch123> but they do not flood
20:07:36  <Supercheese> interesting
20:08:25  <frosch123> the 4 slopes with on corner raised are actually real water, which also floods
20:08:31  <frosch123> *one
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20:12:32  <Supercheese> I've added an else if check for river water class and stuck the invalid assignment in an else at the end
20:12:48  <Supercheese> lemme see if that stops the issue (although it may introduce others...)
20:16:57  <Supercheese> Yes, that does seem to stop the river destruction
20:17:28  <Supercheese> what else to test for unwanted side effects, hmm
20:18:25  <Supercheese> sea slopes I guess
20:23:19  *** Flygon [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:24:11  <Supercheese> hmm, best way to make a diff
20:25:29  <peter1138> anyone for horse burgers?
20:27:13  <andythenorth> not today
20:27:21  <andythenorth> I've had zebra
20:27:30  <andythenorth> also not today
20:27:42  <andythenorth> you got a novelty burger place nearby?
20:28:11  <peter1138>
20:28:48  <Supercheese>
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20:32:37  <SimKill> is there a quick way to convert rail to electrified?
20:32:47  <Supercheese> hotkey C when electric rail menu open
20:32:50  <Supercheese> Convert tool
20:32:57  <SimKill> awesome
20:32:59  <SimKill> ty
20:33:01  <Supercheese> yw
20:33:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it even works with trains underneath :)
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20:45:30  <Alberth> trains under the tracks? :o
20:46:13  <Supercheese> Fake Subways are now trains and not RVs? :O
20:52:08  <Eddi|zuHause> trains under the conversion tool, obviously...
20:52:26  <peter1138> heh
20:57:52  <NGC3982> peter1138: I doubt that the processing plants actually killed horses.
20:58:14  <NGC3982> Although, they might have fed the cows with stuff that contaigned horse, i guess.
20:59:09  <Supercheese> I prefer buffalo burgers myself
20:59:15  <Supercheese> leaner meat
20:59:52  <peter1138> NGC3982, i think i saw something about 20% of the meat
21:00:18  <NGC3982> But that was a frozen Tesco burger, right?
21:00:22  <NGC3982> Or was that from the same place?
21:00:30  <peter1138> dunno
21:00:35  <NGC3982> I guess i didn't read properly.
21:03:13  <drac_boy> Supercheese I thankfully have three choices of locally raised+prepared burgers :p  talk about healthy and inexpensive altogether :)
21:03:42  <Supercheese> There's an elk farm nearby, but I've never gotten any elk meat from them. They'd probably make good burgers...
21:03:47  <Supercheese> and steaks
21:04:42  <Eddi|zuHause> milk? cheese?
21:04:43  <Supercheese>
21:04:56  <Supercheese> interesting that's on Wikipedia
21:05:16  <peter1138> yeah i get local beef
21:05:30  <Supercheese> Looks like no elk in Europe
21:05:34  <Supercheese> or Australia
21:05:55  <NGC3982> Supercheese: Canada?
21:06:16  <Supercheese> should be lots in Canada, I'm only a few hours from the border and there's loads here and north of me
21:06:47  <peter1138> Supercheese, FS#5441, what if the slope is now invalid?
21:06:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese:
21:06:59  <Supercheese> That I don't entirely know
21:07:56  <Supercheese> Yeah, I'm right at the southern and western end of that moose distribution it seems, but I've had moose visit my hunting cabin :)
21:07:59  *** cyph3r [] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
21:09:17  <peter1138> well you gotta test these things when submitting a patch :p
21:09:38  <Supercheese> I tested a lot of stuff, but I can't be 100% exhaustive
21:11:13  <Supercheese> it hasn't crashed or anything :P
21:11:22  <NGC3982> Supercheese: So.. You are not Canadian?
21:11:29  <NGC3982> (That was the intention of my question). :P
21:11:33  <Supercheese> Nope
21:11:36  <Supercheese> Idaho, USA
21:11:45  <Supercheese> ah, ok here we go
21:11:50  <Supercheese> slops issues indeed
21:11:52  <Supercheese> slope*
21:12:02  <frosch123> night
21:12:04  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:12:17  <Supercheese> could be grf bug though
21:12:53  <NGC3982> Ah, i see.
21:13:25  <Eddi|zuHause> "NRA blames video games for high school shootings" ... "NRA releases 'learn shooting' computer game"
21:14:28  <Supercheese> NRA blamed gun-free zone more than video games, IIRC
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21:14:45  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: the second is, ofcourse, to train people to defend themselves and their children
21:14:54  <NGC3982> As a Swede, the American NRA feels like an extremist organisation.
21:15:16  <glx> it is ;)
21:15:23  * Supercheese is an NRA member...
21:15:30  <Rubidium> NGC3982: I think it might be classified as a terrorist organisation
21:15:40  <Supercheese> :S
21:15:54  <NGC3982> I can't say it Is a extremist organisation, but it sure feels like it from our perspective.
21:16:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: we should certainly try to get that through a european court or legislative  ;)
21:16:45  <Supercheese> Well, if protecting the right to self-defense and the defense of fellow citizens is extreme, then so be it
21:17:18  <glx> we have the police for that
21:17:27  <Supercheese> police can't be everywhere all the time
21:17:30  <Rubidium> Supercheese: "terrorism is the systematic use of terror as a means of coercion"
21:17:50  <Supercheese> yes?
21:18:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: well, everyone outside the USA is convinced that "world where only police [and gangsters] have weapons is favourible to "world where everyone has weapons [and gangsters have more of them]"
21:18:30  <glx> and I think there would be less problems with less guns
21:19:00  <Rubidium> NRA coerces the government to not regulate guns at all, mostly by telling that not having guns kills your children (= a cause of anxiety => terror)
21:19:45  <Supercheese> In that case, the people that want to ban firearms do the same thing
21:19:59  <Rubidium> likewise, the pope is a religious fundamentalist
21:20:09  <glx> I really don't see the need to own a military weapon
21:20:57  <Supercheese> The point is to be able to protect yourself and your countrymen against any threat, especially that of a tyrannical government
21:21:08  <peter1138> lol
21:21:22  <Supercheese> y'all might not agree, but there it is
21:21:38  <Rubidium> Supercheese: so, why may you not have guns *in* government buildings?
21:21:44  <Supercheese> excellent question
21:21:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: "In the entire year 2011, the german police fired 86 bullets. the new york police fires 89 bullets to hunt one single maniac, killing several innocent bystanders"
21:21:50  <NGC3982> Supercheese: The problem with most peoples opinions about the NRA is not that we don't want you to defend yourselfs. The problem for me personally is that i feel that weapons don't stay in the right hands, and that weapons can be used to do other things than defending. That said, i have no idea how it really works.
21:22:02  <Supercheese> NYPD is terrible, agreed
21:22:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: of course "terrible" are always the other guys :p
21:22:49  <peter1138> isn't it about a well-armed millitia?
21:22:52  <Supercheese> yep
21:23:01  <NGC3982> Funny this is talked about, since i lost a good friend due to gunfight yesterday.
21:23:09  <peter1138> which isn't the same as well-armed random people
21:23:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: it's like "how do you view the work of the congress" vs. "how do you view the work of your congress representative"
21:23:13  <NGC3982> With a stolen gun.
21:24:28  <Supercheese> "I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
21:24:30  <Supercheese> -George Mason, Co-author of the Second Amendment
21:25:11  <Supercheese> "Among the many misdeeds of British rule in India, history will look upon the Act depriving a whole nation of arms as the blackest."  -- Mohandas Gandhi
21:25:15  <glx> the context was highly different at that time
21:25:39  <Rubidium> Supercheese: again... fine line between a 17th century gun and todays assault rifles. Also, you may not have tanks or fighter planes
21:26:03  <Rubidium> to be honest, to be able to do ANYTHING against your government you need those
21:26:23  <Supercheese> I would disagree
21:26:58  <Rubidium> what would you get done with a gun?
21:27:14  <Rubidium> before you pass the metal detector you'll be shot dead twenty times
21:27:35  <Supercheese> why would I be anywhere near a metal detector?
21:28:06  <Rubidium> to go to your government to "secure a free State"
21:28:20  <NGC3982> Wait, are we seriosly talking about people having their own guns to protect themselves from ..the government?
21:28:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: like in syria they don't have tanks against "the government"?
21:28:36  <Supercheese> The government would first have to deprive the citizens of their liberties
21:28:49  <Supercheese> self-defense, not aggression
21:29:11  <Rubidium> Supercheese: they already deprive citizen of their liberties
21:29:19  <Supercheese> TELL me about it...
21:29:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: you can defend yourself with bare hands if you can reasonably well expect that the attacker has only his bare hands either
21:29:59  <Supercheese> I can be completely assured that the government would have much more than bare hands
21:30:44  <Rubidium> Supercheese: Bradley Manning
21:30:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i can completely assure you that "the government" has already lost when it has to take actual weapons against its own people
21:31:21  <Rubidium> Supercheese: although, maybe you do not believe his birth certificate and he was born in Kenya
21:31:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and at that point, you can _organize_ weapons
21:32:14  <Supercheese> Then Eddi, you can view the armed American populace as a deterrent to that happening; whether or not it will completely work, time will tell
21:33:49  <Rubidium> Supercheese: Jacob Appelbaum (was not allowed to make his phone call)
21:33:50  <peter1138>
21:33:53  <peter1138> uh oh
21:34:00  <peter1138> not that nokia is particularly relevant now
21:34:38  <Rubidium> Supercheese: I'd also say that not being able to carry firearms into a plane is against the second amendment
21:35:01  <kamnet> NGC3982: Yes, we seriously talk about people having their own guns to protect themselves from the government. It's a concept that has worked for the entire history of the United States since 1791.
21:35:05  <Supercheese> When you board a plane, you sign a contract with the airline
21:35:13  <Supercheese> that contract can stipulate no firearms allowed
21:35:18  <Supercheese> you don't like it, don't fly commercial
21:35:22  <Supercheese> I see no problem there
21:35:32  <Rubidium> Supercheese: DMCA/PIPA/SOPA is also a nice example
21:35:51  <Supercheese> kamnet :)
21:35:59  <NGC3982> kamnet: Uhm.
21:36:04  <Supercheese> Rubidium: yes, terrible stuff
21:36:31  <NGC3982> That was a very strange argument.
21:36:49  <Supercheese> It's the extremely short version
21:37:01  <Rubidium> Supercheese: I have never had to sign anything when boarding a plane
21:37:23  <Supercheese> Yes you have, when you buy a ticket
21:37:29  <Supercheese> either via an Internet checkbox or in person
21:37:31  <kamnet> No, you don't sign, but when you buy the ticket you do agree to rules and there is a contract involved.
21:37:37  <Rubidium> and more often than not, flights are booked by someone else so I never agreed with anything either
21:37:51  <Supercheese> someone agreed with something with the airline, I assure you
21:37:56  <kamnet> If somebody else booked it for you, then you authroized them as your agent.
21:38:03  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: you don't seriously expect other providers to do it different?
21:38:39  <peter1138> yes :S
21:38:41  <Rubidium> kamnet: I doubt that holds in court in all cases, e.g. when your boss orders someone to book flights for you
21:38:50  <NGC3982> kamnet: And ..uhm, you beleive in a concept where everyone has a gun at home, so they can defend themselves if the government does ..something horrible to you?
21:39:01  <NGC3982> I just want to make sure i got that properly.
21:39:06  <Supercheese> If anyone, not just the government
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21:39:38  <NGC3982> And the guns that get's stolen and then used
21:39:40  <NGC3982> What about them?
21:39:47  <kamnet> NGC3982: In concept, yes. I personally do not have one nor see the need to.
21:39:56  <Supercheese> They are guns that are stolen and used...
21:39:56  <Rubidium> Supercheese: exactly the reason I should be able to take my massive assault rifle onto planes. If there is a terrorist, I can shoot them!
21:39:57  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: how could they block skype if they wouldn't decrypt encrypted connections?
21:40:10  <kamnet> By my own personal state of security is quite secure, I don't feel any need to own one.
21:40:33  <NGC3982> kamnet: This might be due to cultural differences, but i feel that the problems that comes with weapons outweight that concept in googolplexes.
21:40:43  <kamnet> Americans, by and large, do not own assault rifles. Those that do have an explicit license from the government to do so.
21:40:45  <peter1138> i don't think mine does
21:40:55  <Rubidium> oh yes... the "it's not the guns that kill, it's the people that use them". So... why is drinking and driving disallowed?
21:41:10  <Supercheese> Rubidium: that responsibility is delegated to air marshals by contractual agreement
21:41:32  <Rubidium> after all, it's the drunk driver that kills, not the car
21:41:58  <Rubidium> and as long as you feel threathened you can shoot anyone (in at least Florida)
21:42:02  <peter1138> that was a nice steak
21:42:02  <kamnet> NGC3982: It is a cultural difference. Ours is rooted in the fact that a government did, at one time, send hordes of soldiers to live in peoples houses, at the people's own expense, who then went from town to town to remove weapons so that the people could not oppose the government.
21:42:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i'm sure drunk shooting is not forbidden :p
21:42:16  <Supercheese> Rubidium: yes, as long as you're prepared for the legal cases that will likely ensue
21:42:33  <NGC3982> kamnet: And that government is your current government?
21:43:05  <Rubidium> oh... did you know that firing a shot straight in the air gives you more jail time than actually killing someone? (in Florida)
21:43:11  <NGC3982> kamnet: You know, we once had a king that wanted to kill every single Swede. That does not really mean i can blame our current (nutcase). :)
21:43:17  <NGC3982> Rubidium: That sounds highly unlikely.
21:43:25  <kamnet> No, but the politicians who set up the next government wrote in a clause to ensure that if such a government, whether it be theirs or a future one, ever thought about it, they would know that they would be opposed.
21:43:26  <Supercheese> firing a shot in the air has easily the potential to kill someone
21:43:39  <Supercheese> reckless endangerment
21:43:50  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: legal court rulings are a totally different topic :p
21:44:09  <Supercheese> the point is to deter any government from becoming that tyrannical
21:44:38  <Supercheese> "When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. " -- Thomas Jefferson
21:44:56  <NGC3982> Yes, we know you can quote people
21:45:08  <NGC3982> Poetry does not make American guns go less bang
21:45:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: certainly no amount of weapons makes "the government" "fear" anyone...
21:45:30  <Supercheese> does it not?
21:45:41  <Eddi|zuHause> most certainly not.
21:46:15  <NGC3982> I'm with Eddi here. It doesn't really matter if you have a Glock under your bed if your government starts turning on you.
21:46:24  <NGC3982> Specially not in the US.
21:46:36  <Supercheese> As I said earlier, you may think that way, that's fine.
21:46:44  <kamnet> It actually does. You may not win that fight, but at least you have a better chance.
21:46:52  <Supercheese> We would disagree, of course
21:47:16  <NGC3982> And you don't feel like it's a better deal to simply make sure the government can't turn on you?
21:47:20  <Supercheese> Countries are different :O
21:47:22  <kamnet> And because of that guaranteed right, America has had a stable government for 231 years. There aren't many countries who can say that.
21:47:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: germany has had "tyrannical" governments, but certainly that was not because it had soldiers standing everywhere to "enforce" it
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21:47:38  <NGC3982> Yes, countries are different, but that does not mean you must turn into North Korea.
21:47:48  <Supercheese> North Korea?
21:48:07  <kamnet> Woot, GF calling be back in a bit
21:48:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: syria? libya?
21:48:14  <Supercheese> kamnet, stability not the best argument
21:48:40  <NGC3982> Supercheese: Yes, you should not have to count on your government turning evil on their own people.
21:48:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: it's not like ghaddhafi said "oh they have weapons, i give up!"
21:48:49  <NGC3982> That means you have a bigger problem then gun control.
21:49:00  <Eddi|zuHause> weapons do not solve the problem that is stated
21:49:02  <Supercheese> Indeed we do, the Human Condition
21:49:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you can overthrow a government without any weapons at all (india)
21:49:43  <Supercheese> I refer you to the Gandhi quote earlier
21:49:50  <peter1138> the real problem is that americans want to have guns, and that is solved by letting them have guns
21:50:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: you mean the totally-out-of-context-forged-for-my-own-argument quote?
21:50:15  <__ln__> is a foreign tourist allowed to carry a gun in the US?
21:50:15  <NGC3982> peter1138: True.
21:50:24  <peter1138> anything else like protection or whatever is just an excuse
21:50:33  <Supercheese> I can grab context if you wish
21:50:58  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: there was a swiss soldier who travelled to germany fully armed and equipped
21:51:13  <NGC3982> __ln__: I guess Sweden and Suomi have quite similar gun laws.
21:51:19  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: neither the german customs/police nor the swiss supervisors liked that :p
21:51:54  <Rubidium> peter1138: I don't think it is "Americans", but NRA. The majority of Americans are not opposed to regulating assault rifles
21:52:05  <Supercheese>
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21:52:19  <Rubidium> however, pushing such a law would mean you will lose the next election
21:52:49  <__ln__> NGC3982: i guess...
21:52:50  <NGC3982> Nobody answers what happends when guns are being stolen from people.
21:53:08  <Supercheese> What happens is that guns are stolen
21:53:23  <Rubidium> NGC3982: nothing; the cops need to solve the murders made with the stolen guns
21:53:26  <NGC3982> __ln__: You fins only use knife anyway *pulls out the ol' book of cliches*
21:53:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: guns would be less likely to get stolen if people wouldn't have guns in the first place
21:54:07  <NGC3982> That was my point, i guess.
21:54:18  <Supercheese> Let's replace guns with cars
21:54:23  <NGC3982> Are there statistics on how many of the murders are made with stolen weapons?
21:54:31  <Supercheese> People would be less likely to have their cars stolen if there were less cars
21:54:40  <NGC3982> Supercheese: Yes, that is true.
21:55:14  <NGC3982> The purpose of a stolen car is to either drive or sell. I wouldn't steal a gun to drive it, ill say.
21:55:32  <Supercheese> I'd expect people steal guns to sell as well
21:55:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: speaking of cars:
21:55:39  <Supercheese> I have no statistics available, though
21:55:56  <Supercheese> Deaths caused by firearms include criminals being shot
21:56:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: so why should criminals being shot be tolerated?
21:56:44  <Eddi|zuHause> criminals are to be put before a court of law
21:56:57  <Eddi|zuHause> they better be alive for that
21:57:01  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Seriosly, it's that bad?
21:57:12  <Supercheese> Would you rather the criminal kill his victim, rather than the victim being armed and killing the criminal in self defense?
21:57:46  <NGC3982> That's a circular argument. If none of them had a gun in the first place, you wouldn't have this problem.
21:57:51  <glx> and what if the criminal is using the victim weapon to kill it ?
21:57:51  <Supercheese> I can't say, but I expect a large portion of those firearms deaths to be criminals shot by their armed would-be victims
21:57:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: so how likely is a (non-organized-crime) criminal to be armed in a world where "nobody" has arms?
21:57:57  <NGC3982> As we don't here in Sweden, for instance.
21:57:57  <NGC3982> ..
21:58:05  <Rubidium> or C) killing a non-criminal in "self defense" even though there was no threat
21:58:19  <Supercheese> keep in mind "arms" can be more than firearms
21:58:40  <Supercheese> Rubidium: another number I don't know, but would be surely far less
21:58:59  <Rubidium> I wouldn't know with "stand my ground" type of laws
21:59:04  <Supercheese> glx: 	and what if the criminal is using the victim weapon to kill it ? then the victim failed in his obligation as a firearms owner
21:59:33  <Rubidium> "I'm a little scared of that guy that walks there, oh I can just shoot him and say it was self defense"
21:59:51  <Supercheese> "and then get dragged to court and convicted of multiple crimes"
21:59:58  <Rubidium> really, do you want a civilian to be playing judge and executioner?
21:59:59  <__ln__> wouldn't it be good for citizens to stock some nuclear weapons at home, to have a credible defense against the government?
22:00:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: allegedly a person once was found 'not guilty' on a "he had it coming" defence
22:00:17  <NGC3982> __ln__: :D
22:00:24  <NGC3982> __ln__: Or a tank, or an F18.
22:00:31  <NGC3982> I want an F18.
22:00:32  <NGC3982> :(
22:00:36  <Supercheese> Rifles have toppled far, far more governments than nuclear weapons
22:00:37  <Rubidium> Supercheese: actually, with "stand your ground" you can request to drop the case before it goes to court (and often it is dropped)
22:00:47  <NGC3982> And a machine gun prepared MagLev.
22:00:51  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: get a MIG, they're cheaper :p
22:01:03  *** Alberth [] has left #openttd []
22:01:04  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: And easier to repair!
22:01:18  <Supercheese> and besides, nuclear weapons are mentioned nowhere in the Constitution
22:01:18  <__ln__> NGC3982: your lucky day, F18 was released today:
22:01:30  <Rubidium> Supercheese: mostly because the mess of nuclear weapons is much bigger, i.e. the civilian casualties of "decent" governments
22:01:46  <NGC3982> __ln__: Harr.
22:02:17  <NGC3982> I love how Americans worships the constitution.
22:02:35  <NGC3982> Even making a really bad movie about stealing it.
22:02:42  <NGC3982> Seriosly, that was barely a movie.
22:02:43  <Rubidium> Supercheese: you should stock some mustard gas (after all, it's an arm)
22:02:44  * NGC3982 is so bored.
22:02:50  <Supercheese> I think it comes down to different philosophies, those that believe an armed populace and the proper laws/responsibilities that go with it is more desirable, and those that believe a disarmed populace with the laws/regulations is more desirable
22:02:52  <__ln__> Supercheese: does the constitution explicitly say what kind of weapons it refers to?
22:02:52  <Eddi|zuHause> fun fact: german law punishes "causing a nuclear explosion" less than actually killing someone :p
22:03:35  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: :D
22:03:46  <peter1138> has it ever happened? :p
22:03:50  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: I do hope that law was passed before 1945.
22:03:57  <Supercheese> Mustard gas and the like are not weapons of war, they are weapons of terror
22:04:16  <NGC3982> Agent Orange?
22:04:23  <Rubidium> Supercheese: so are nuclear weapons
22:04:28  <Supercheese> indeed
22:04:29  <NGC3982> Mixed with hydrazine and U238.
22:04:36  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: you wouldn't want to have most laws passed before 1945 in germany :p
22:04:41  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Hehe
22:05:34  <NGC3982> By the way
22:05:57  <NGC3982> We are safe on Apophis
22:05:58  <peter1138> shared route restrictions: good idea or not?
22:06:03  <peter1138> (like shared orders i suppose)
22:06:27  <NGC3982> Recent trajectory calculations does not show that it's bound to run nearby any keyhole area.
22:06:28  <Supercheese> "only trains with speed greater than blah through here"?
22:06:42  <NGC3982> Supercheese: I would like that.
22:07:05  <Supercheese> is that what "route restrictions" mean?
22:07:08  <peter1138> if you want
22:07:12  <Supercheese> :)
22:07:17  <NGC3982> Feels like a good word for it, yes.
22:07:18  <Rubidium> also, the question is: why does the US have so many criminals?
22:07:35  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: "only members of group X,Y,Z" maybe
22:07:40  <NGC3982> I could definetly use that, since i often build hub stations
22:08:00  <Supercheese> Is that the GUI you've been writing?
22:08:34  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: attached to waypons, stations, signals, arbitrary tiles, ... ?
22:08:53  <peter1138> just waypoints at the moment
22:08:59  <Supercheese> Waypoints, ok
22:09:07  <peter1138> although technically any station (but not per-tile)
22:09:10  *** Voratius [] has joined #openttd
22:09:12  <peter1138> (waypoints are stations)
22:09:12  <Eddi|zuHause> platforms would be best for my purposes
22:09:14  <Voratius> Heey.
22:09:22  <Voratius> Do we have any server specialists here?
22:09:33  <Eddi|zuHause> espesially road stations
22:09:39  <NGC3982> A scenario where i would use that is when i use non-stop orders trough existing stations
22:09:49  <Supercheese> brb
22:09:50  <Eddi|zuHause> (if next stop = X, use this loading bay, if next stop = Y, use that)
22:10:00  <Voratius> So, I set up a server, port forwarded on my cisco(can provide pics), and yet, my friends get "Network: Game Connection Lost"
22:10:04  <NGC3982> It would be neat to make that work without waypoints
22:10:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Voratius: increase the timeouts for joining=
22:10:42  <Voratius> they're at 50,000 right now
22:10:44  <Voratius> max_join_time
22:11:09  <Voratius> lemme take a pic of the forward
22:11:45  <Voratius>
22:11:50  *** Maedhros [~maedhros@] has quit [Quit: leaving]
22:11:58  <Rubidium> connection lost implies there has been a connection, so the forwarding is likely not broken
22:12:25  <Voratius> Oh wait! It works now. Thanks for the help.
22:12:44  <glx> very big map ?
22:12:54  <Rubidium> also, if the timeout is the issue I think that is mentioned to the user and server owner
22:13:16  <Voratius> Don't know if the map is big, where can I change the size of the server map
22:13:28  <Rubidium> so it sounds like an unreliable connection to me (bad wireless?)
22:13:29  <Eddi|zuHause> could be lossy WLAN or stuff
22:13:37  <Voratius> i get Closed client connection on my side, in the logs
22:13:39  <Voratius> but it works now
22:13:59  <NGC3982> Seriosly, after what happend my friend today, i feel a bit disgusted while reading the gunlaw conversation today.
22:14:03  <NGC3982> I shouldn't, though.
22:14:18  <Voratius> So, how do I change the map size?
22:14:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Voratius: map_x and map_y
22:14:30  <NGC3982> Voratius: rcon or config?
22:14:46  <Voratius> config, I believe. I ran it from my openTTD -D shortcut
22:14:51  <Voratius> found it.
22:14:59  <Voratius> it says 10 and 10, how much are they multiplied by?
22:15:15  <glx> so 1024*1024
22:15:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Voratius: that's 2^10x2^10 so 1024x1024
22:15:25  <Voratius> holy shit
22:15:26  <glx> that's a big map
22:15:28  <Voratius> that's big
22:15:58  <Voratius> so i have to put it at 5 and 5 for 512x512
22:16:04  <Eddi|zuHause> range is 6 to 11
22:16:15  <Eddi|zuHause> 512 would be 9
22:16:18  <glx> 9 and 9
22:16:23  <Voratius> Oooh
22:16:28  <Voratius> Thanks.
22:16:34  <Eddi|zuHause> it doubles with every step
22:16:52  <peter1138> powers of 2 woo
22:17:49  <Voratius> how can I change actual landscape, like hilly, and stuff like that
22:18:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Voratius: easiest way would be to prepare the game in single player and upload it to the server, then load it there with the -g option
22:18:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Voratius: but all these settings are in the .cfg somewhere
22:19:08  <Voratius> Yeah, I need a terrain one. I think they'll get sick of the same old map
22:19:33  <Voratius> found it
22:19:40  <Voratius> they wanted hilly, so Terrain_Type should be 2
22:20:06  <Eddi|zuHause> 2 sounds very medium-ish
22:20:14  <Voratius> That's what it says here
22:20:21  <Voratius> 2 is hilly, 3 is mountain
22:22:56  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: did they do something about that law about non-EU PhDs getting arrested for calling themselves doktors?
22:23:32  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: not entirely sure
22:23:38  <Wolf01> 'night all
22:23:41  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
22:24:09  * Zuu makes a note to himself to pick a better window to test things on than the content download window which takes a quater of an infinity to load in debug mode. :-p
22:24:15  <__ln__> that law is/was from the 1930s as far as i understand
22:24:28  <Voratius> They want full water borders. Which value is best for them?
22:25:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Voratius: i expect that to be a bitmask
22:25:27  <glx> or some value set to false
22:25:42  <Voratius> says bitset here
22:26:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, so it's either all 1 (15) or all 0 (0)
22:26:20  <Voratius> I set it to 1, well, that was the default
22:27:01  <Voratius> so
22:27:12  <Voratius> every time my world resets(reaches reset year)
22:27:18  <Voratius> do I manually have to reset it?
22:27:25  <Voratius> as in, restart
22:27:31  <Eddi|zuHause> reset year is automatic
22:28:03  <Voratius> So I don't need to stay up all night to reset the world once it reachees 2050, for example?
22:28:37  <Eddi|zuHause> you could test it with some low value (1 year only takes <15 minutes)
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22:30:47  <Voratius> Closing my laptop's lid makes the server die if i open it again :c
22:30:59  <glx> just checked the source about water_border, it's a bitset so 15 for all (there's also a special value for random : 16)
22:31:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Voratius: possibly some powersave feature that shuts down the network device?
22:31:36  <Voratius> Yeep
22:31:42  <Voratius> Is there any way to disable it?
22:31:54  <Voratius> Ripping the key off will obviously not work
22:31:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Voratius: i have no clue about your laptop
22:32:00  <Voratius> HP 655
22:32:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't really help
22:32:37  <Voratius> Gosh darn it
22:32:54  <glx> maybe it goes into suspend to ram or suspend to drive mode
22:33:07  <Voratius> It disables wireless
22:34:37  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like a total misfeature
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22:35:05  <Voratius> Heh.
22:35:41  <Terkhen> good night
22:36:04  <Voratius> Night
22:37:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll do some functional analysis, so good bye as well :)
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22:45:21  <__ln__> supermop: you missed the big gun debate
22:48:14  <Voratius> Thanks for your help guys. I better head to sleep
22:48:19  *** Voratius [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
22:55:29  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: only a small part of the discussion was about big guns
22:58:12  <__ln__> let me rephrase: "you missed the {big} {gun debate}"
22:58:31  <__ln__> that's what happens when a language doesn't have proper compound nouns
22:59:49  <NGC3982> __ln__: A compound noun is a "ihopskrivning", right?
23:00:17  <NGC3982> Ah, yes it was.
23:00:21  <NGC3982> And that's true.
23:02:16  <NGC3982> I can't say how the Fins do it, but i usually enjoy when Swedes miss out on proper compund nouns.
23:02:33  * Zuu feels excited. He can now close his content download window by clicking on the total download size. (note clicking on the rest of the string other than the string parameter does not close the window)
23:02:34  <__ln__> it's *Finns
23:02:50  <NGC3982> __ln__: Oh, really?
23:02:59  <peter1138> hmm, my dvb tuner appears not to work :S
23:03:01  <__ln__> really.
23:03:14  <NGC3982> "I'm going to visit a sick sister", or "Have a drunk shrimp sandwich".
23:03:29  <NGC3982> __ln__: I see.
23:03:29  <peter1138> or the antenna i suppose
23:03:33  <NGC3982> __ln__: Why is that, by the way.
23:04:10  <NGC3982> Oh, i just realized it's my birthday.
23:04:23  <Supercheese> Felix die natalis tibi!
23:04:34  <__ln__> NGC3982: Finnish rules for compound nouns are very similar to those of Swedish; and yes, a lot of people are doing it wrong.
23:05:06  <__ln__> NGC3982: Can't tell why.
23:05:33  <NGC3982> I hate that.
23:05:54  <NGC3982> I had a discussion about the word "skjuta" (to shoot) yesterday
23:06:06  <NGC3982> And why one would remove the j when bending it.
23:06:36  <__ln__> Me too. I also hate when people are doing it wrong in Swedish or even Danish. (I'm assuming Danish has similar rules, does it?)
23:06:47  <NGC3982> "to shoot": skjuta. "did shoot": sköt.
23:07:02  <__ln__> And why would one remove the "s" when pronouncing it....
23:07:09  <NGC3982> __ln__: Yes, they do. All the Scandinavian languages.
23:07:44  <NGC3982> __ln__: Well, i can understand the s-part. It's a modern take on the original word, and is used on all the forms of the word.
23:07:48  <Markk> __ln__: Because Swedish have the "sje"-sound.
23:08:18  <__ln__> Markk: which sounds like "h"?
23:08:19  <Markk> __ln__:
23:08:33  <Markk> __ln__: Somewhat like the English H, yes.
23:08:41  <Markk> __ln__: Not like the Swedish H.
23:08:56  <Markk> __ln__: Like the Dutch soft G.
23:09:09  <NGC3982> Markk: Do we really use the sj-sound for skjuta, though?
23:09:33  *** Supercheese [~Password4@] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.89 [Firefox 18.0/20130104151925]]
23:09:39  <Markk> NGC3982: yes.
23:09:43  <Markk> NGC3982:
23:09:48  <Markk> NGC3982: See "skjorta".
23:09:55  <__ln__> The Finland-Swedish pronunciation makes more sense.
23:09:59  <NGC3982> Ah, "7" made me understand
23:10:14  <NGC3982> "Sj" (just by looking at it) != "skj"uta..
23:10:17  <Markk> __ln__: Like the Dutch town "Groeningen" is pronounced Schröningen.
23:10:55  <Markk> That sound is just a bit further down the throat from our "sj-sound".
23:11:17  <NGC3982> A jewish shhh.
23:11:18  <NGC3982> :D
23:11:27  <__ln__> when i become the king of europe, there will be certain changes to pronunciation in various languages.
23:11:48  <NGC3982> That's not encouraging coming from a Finn.
23:12:08  <kamnet> You'll have to pry the sj-sound from my cold, dead throat!  ;-)
23:12:09  * NGC3982 introduces lingual racism.
23:12:15  <NGC3982> Hehe
23:12:28  <Markk> __ln__: Hm, you don't have a king in Finland, mate.
23:12:51  <Markk> Our sj-sound is a voiceless retroflex sibilant.
23:12:54  <NGC3982> Markk: Speaking of, you might help us here. You went to a Swedish school as a kid, right?
23:13:04  <Markk> NGC3982: Uhm, yes.
23:13:07  <Markk> NGC3982: Didn't you?
23:13:24  <NGC3982> Markk: We had a small discussion regarding Swedes not being taught enough about Finland in school.
23:13:25  <Markk> Would I be so fucked up otherwise?
23:13:43  <Markk> I did not learn that much from school really.
23:13:53  <NGC3982> And i agreed, since i - and most people i know - have very little knowledge of Finnish culture.
23:13:54  <Markk> I've just learned what I wanted otherwise.
23:14:08  <Markk> I have some knowledge because I'm part finnish.
23:14:16  <Markk> And just wanted to know how big the difference is.
23:14:26  <Markk> (It's not too big, exept for the language)
23:14:27  <NGC3982> I see.
23:15:23  <__ln__> Markk: currently not, true.
23:15:42  <NGC3982> Crap.
23:15:46  <NGC3982> I put my foot in the poop.
23:16:01  <NGC3982> I started saying thank you to the first congratulation messages on Facebook
23:16:05  <NGC3982> Now i have to do it to all of them.
23:16:11  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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23:17:16  <NGC3982> Now i have to kill all of them.*
23:19:38  <__ln__>
23:20:08  <NGC3982> The king of finland is of course an ice bear.
23:20:12  <NGC3982> Or santa.
23:20:19  <NGC3982> I would prefer santa.
23:21:20  <__ln__> (how does one even manage to take such a crappy photo of something that isn't even moving)
23:21:41  <NGC3982> I was just about to point that out. It's a horrible Wiki picture.
23:21:51  <NGC3982> Actually, you should submit for someone changing it.
23:22:01  <peter1138> probably zoomed in
23:22:09  <peter1138> taken with a phone camera
23:22:22  <NGC3982> Shouldn't be too hard finding a new public domain picture.
23:23:38  *** fonsinchen [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:27:09  <peter1138> it's a wiki
23:27:11  <peter1138> go for it :p
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