Log for #openttd on 17th January 2013:
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00:05:35  *** Celestar_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:22:38  <Eddi|zuHause> <Zuu> Supercheese: If GSes are allowed to construct NewObjects and identify specific objects from specific NewGRFs, then *someone* could maintain a GS library which contain code for using specific NewObjects of specific NewGRFs. This library could then expose a public interface that allows "build station eye candy near station X", "build windmills near X,Y" etc. <-- sounds rather like an AI-Callback use
00:26:06  <Superuser> so I'm thinking of buying a higher-end Android phone. How is OpenTTD for Android? I hope it uses a UI that scales a bit better to a touchscreen? (the buttons on the window decoration are a tad small)
00:27:08  <NGC3982> It doesn't.
00:27:15  <NGC3982> Does it really exist in an official version?
00:27:39  <NGC3982> It doesn't work at all on my Galaxy S2, but i can't say if that's the phone or me making trouble.
00:27:51  <Superuser> I don't think it's official, but it exists.
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00:29:08  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no special code to handle UI scaling, just use BigGUI grf and adjust font size
00:30:56  <Superuser> have you tried it on an Android phone though? Maybe it scales better than expected Eddi?
00:31:16  * NGC3982 is trying it out right now.
00:31:22  <NGC3982> It doesn't
00:31:26  <NGC3982> It doesn't scale anything
00:31:45  <NGC3982> Maximum resolution creates a square around the mouse pointer, following you on the screen.
00:31:51  <NGC3982> At least that's what i recon so far.
00:32:25  <NGC3982> Ok, i got it to scale
00:32:37  <NGC3982> 4:3 ratio, and the graphics are flickering like crazy
00:32:42  <NGC3982> And the MIDI music sounds like someone died.
00:33:19  <NGC3982> Hey
00:33:23  <NGC3982> I actually got it to work
00:33:26  * NGC3982 tries network play.
00:33:37  <NGC3982> Superuser: Are you able to try right now?
00:33:45  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i do not have such a phone
00:34:38  <Superuser> I have a fucking shit phone
00:34:50  <Superuser> HTC Wildfire, the original. Cheapest Android phone ever released to my knowledge
00:34:57  <Superuser> Fucking sucks balls
00:35:01  <Superuser> Piece of shit
00:35:09  <NGC3982> My word, it actually works
00:35:11  <NGC3982> I had no idea
00:35:28  <NGC3982> Superuser: Yes, that is not a well built Android phone, id say.
00:36:02  <Superuser> play some, please tell us of your impressions
00:36:37  <NGC3982> OK
00:36:40  <NGC3982> Ok, let's see
00:36:47  <NGC3982> It scales to my full window
00:36:53  <NGC3982> And i have set it to spyglass view
00:37:17  <NGC3982> That is, as soon as i touch the window, it gives a zoomed block around my pointer
00:37:41  <NGC3982> Not an in-game zoom, but a scaled picture (that shows a similar size block compared to a LCD monitor)
00:37:51  <NGC3982> Two finger movements scrolls the map
00:37:59  <NGC3982> Badly, but it seems to be configurable
00:38:20  <NGC3982> Pinching uses the in-game zoom out
00:40:19  <NGC3982> Hm, allright.
00:40:28  <NGC3982> I guess this can be configurable correctly
00:40:46  <NGC3982> But zooming by pinching and moving on the map with two fingers does create some problems.
00:41:39  <NGC3982> Oh, the return button represent the delete button on a keyboard, by default
00:42:03  <NGC3982> Superuser: I would not use this to actually build anything on a screen as small as this
00:42:23  <NGC3982> But with a tab and a bigger GUI, i wouldnt say there are any problems at all
00:46:39  <NGC3982> Conclusion: On smart phones, it's monitorable. On tabs, fully playable with some configuration.
00:52:23  <Superuser> lol
00:52:39  <Superuser> put that on the ottd roadmap ;)
00:53:26  <Superuser> also NGC3982, no sane defaults? It ships with the normal config?
00:54:22  <NGC3982> The config is what i can se sparse
00:54:36  <NGC3982> I cant find hotkeys, for instance.
00:54:50  <NGC3982> You can activate the keyboard
00:55:00  <NGC3982> But i do not understand how to - for instance - ctrl+click.
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00:59:59  <Superuser> oh I play nethack on my android phone occasionally
01:00:07  <Superuser> you need to use ?123
01:00:13  <Superuser> if I recall correctly
01:00:23  <Superuser> wait let me fish it out of the plug NGC3982
01:00:59  <NGC3982> "?123"?
01:04:35  <Superuser> flr
01:04:54  <Superuser> for* some reason Nethack for Android uses a non-standard android keyboard
01:05:09  <NGC3982> Oh, ok
01:05:10  <Superuser> that is not the Sense UI one that comes with the phone
01:08:03  <Superuser> poo, still trying to find how to press Ctrl
01:08:58  <NGC3982> Hehe, yeah
01:09:10  <NGC3982> This feels more like a fun thing then actual gameplay.
01:10:03  <Superuser> do you think it would work on a tablet, perhaps?
01:11:28  <Superuser> oh okay
01:11:45  <Superuser> NetHack adds a Ctrl button, it's just on the right side of the screen and I didn't notice it lol
01:12:37  <Superuser> note that NetHack is probably the most complicated roguelike of all time. Hence, there is actually a difference between uppercase and lowercase letters, and there are also combinations (e.g. Meta[Alt] and d) and Ctrl+something
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01:17:25  <Superuser> who is the OpenTTD for Android man? Is there an issue tracker for it? FlySpray doesn't accept 'Android' as an OS...
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01:21:13  <Superuser> Argh, sorry, but em, peter1138?
01:21:41  <NGC3982> I managed to set hotkey
01:22:07  <NGC3982> One can bind a hotkey to a physical button
01:22:16  <NGC3982> I chose my settings button
01:22:25  <NGC3982> It works, but is barely usable.
01:22:35  <Supercheese> Pelya is the OTTD Android dude
01:22:37  <Superuser> needs more sane defaults, right?
01:22:55  <Supercheese>
01:23:18  <Superuser> okay
01:23:24  <Superuser> I guess I have to sign up for the forum
01:23:46  <Supercheese>
01:23:59  <NGC3982> Superuser: Sane and sane, i wouldn't say it seems possible to make it better than this.
01:24:07  <Superuser> I was unable to log into the forum with my website (e.g. translator) credentials
01:24:18  <Supercheese>
01:24:22  <NGC3982> It's for all i know not a good idea to run a multi-button game in a ..two button phone.
01:24:28  <Superuser> well, if you're going around fixing everything, it's NOT sane
01:24:33  <Supercheese> Android OTTD runs nicely on my 10" Toshiba Thrive tablet
01:24:40  <Superuser> also, I thought Android phones have to have 3 buttons?
01:24:48  <Superuser> used to be 4, like on my old shitty phone
01:25:16  <Supercheese> I dunno, my tablet has on-screen buttons, very few hardware buttons, just for on/off, volume, and screen lock
01:25:23  <NGC3982> Superuser: Well, yeah. But, touch buttons doesn't really work for this, i notice.
01:25:25  <Superuser> who is the integrated for OpenTTD online services Supercheese?
01:25:34  <Supercheese> BaNaNaS ya mean?
01:25:36  <NGC3982> Try holding a touch button while clicking the screen was barely possible
01:25:43  <NGC3982> On the Galaxy S2.
01:25:47  <Superuser> should merge it with the forum
01:25:57  <Supercheese> who should merge which?
01:26:10  <Superuser> forum with BaNaNaS accoutns
01:26:18  <Superuser> a systems administrations expert
01:26:30  <Superuser> administration*
01:26:39  <Supercheese> yes, account merging, been discussed I think
01:26:54  <Supercheese> TrueBrain would be the fellow behind BaNaNaS and the like
01:26:56  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: maybe a "sticky" button would be better? like you click on it, and the next click counts as ctrl being pressed?
01:27:09  <Supercheese> I dunno what the status is on account linking etc.
01:27:14  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Absolutely.
01:27:20  <Superuser> btw, this is fucking cool:
01:27:35  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: And i would prefer that button to be choosable, maybe by holding it down for a second.
01:27:37  <Superuser> want one of these so badly. It was actually well-reviewed, which surprised me
01:28:00  <Supercheese> the camera on my tablet works for my picture-taking needs, which are very few and far between :P
01:28:12  <NGC3982> Galaxy Tab 10.1 <- Would that be sufficient for AOpenTTD?
01:29:17  <Superuser> anyway supercheese, I suppose the Android port is unofficial and you don't accept reports for it in FlySpray?
01:29:38  <Supercheese> A correct assumption as far as I am aware
01:31:39  <Superuser> yeah, Android is not listed under the 'Operating System' field, which is probably intentional
01:31:45  <Supercheese> Eddi, any idea what frosch was saying when he mentioned, "Trying to change vehicle properties depending on current date will cause desyncs"?
01:32:09  <Supercheese> (or well, if anyone has further information)
01:32:56  <Eddi|zuHause> he could mean that the power etc. values are cached, so they only change on certain triggers like switching to another railtype, servicing in depot and such
01:33:14  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can't use _current_ date for them, but you could very well use the _service_ date
01:33:29  <Supercheese> Ah, so there would be a difference
01:33:34  <Supercheese> between the two variables
01:34:11  <Supercheese> Then power could be made to decrease as a function of  date_of_last_service
01:34:28  <Supercheese> err wait
01:34:30  <Supercheese> hmm
01:34:50  <Supercheese> how to compare
01:36:01  <Supercheese> I could have sword that variable was *days* since last service, not date
01:36:05  <Supercheese> sworn*
01:37:07  <Superuser> OMFG I AM A GENIUS
01:37:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather think the supposed desync reason should be solved
01:37:11  <Superuser> NFC3982
01:37:16  <Superuser> Just buy a stylus!!!
01:37:33  <Superuser> you will never be bored on the bus again :)))
01:38:27  <Superuser> also holy shit ottd for android has over 100k downloads
01:38:33  <Superuser> not sure if that includes updates to it
01:38:44  <Supercheese> it probably includes updates
01:38:48  <Supercheese> but I dunno
01:38:54  <Superuser> why kill the dreams ;_;
01:39:59  <Eddi|zuHause> so, who'll be uploading to the windows store? ;p
01:40:30  <Superuser> you need to pay 
01:40:44  <Supercheese> windows store? I don't want to know...
01:40:50  <Superuser> also I'm not sure if the GPL is allowed on the Windows store
01:40:55  <Supercheese> probably not
01:40:57  <Superuser> VLC had to relicense to LGPL, for instance
01:41:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: it's the same as the apple store, just for windows...
01:41:47  <Eddi|zuHause> not that i have used either one...
01:41:56  <Supercheese> I will continue to not use it, then
01:42:02  <Supercheese> them*
01:42:18  <APTX> I wonder why people care about the windows store
01:42:23  <Supercheese> Google play store's the only thing of that kind I use
01:42:30  <APTX> it's for metro apps and metro is crap
01:42:31  <Supercheese> and I only ever download free stuff
01:43:03  <Superuser> it's also for games, and games don't have to use Microsoft's proprietary technologies
01:43:09  <Superuser> the app store and games store are separate.
01:43:40  <Superuser> Also VLC successfully crowdfunded a port to Windows 8 Metro which amongst other things created a mingw-64 compiler
01:43:46  <Superuser> a serious one at least
01:44:23  <Superuser> BTW, this is hilarious:
01:44:46  <Superuser> open source is communist and unamerican!! (quote from microsoft man)
01:44:55  <Supercheese> Micro$oft, no surprise there
01:47:09  <Superuser> no wonder oftc's domain ends in .su huehuehue
01:47:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Superuser: that was 12 years ago...
01:47:29  <Superuser> doubt they've changed much
01:48:08  <Eddi|zuHause> that was when linux was The Evil, not apple
01:48:09  <Supercheese> Good lord, strange to realize 2001 was 12 years ago
01:49:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Superuser: the typical counterargument to "opensource is unamerican" is: "yeah, that's why BSD stands for Berkley Software Development"
01:50:02  <Superuser> Distribution. It's distribution.
01:50:34  <Eddi|zuHause> surely that was the point i was trying to make :p
01:52:05  <glx> <Superuser> Also VLC successfully crowdfunded a port to Windows 8 Metro which amongst other things created a mingw-64 compiler <-- mingw-w64 existed way before
01:55:16  <Supercheese> Hmm, I can't seem to find a way to check if a newobject is built at the map edge...
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01:56:45  <MinchinWeb> anyone know how to get a list of just tram depots using NoAI?
01:57:42  <Supercheese> I don't see any map-position variables available
02:00:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: stations and industries certainly have it, but industry tiles or object tiles... no idea
02:00:43  <Supercheese> Industries have it?
02:00:50  <Eddi|zuHause> MinchinWeb: valuate the list of road depots by the roadtype?
02:01:39  <Supercheese> I don't see any absolute-map-position variables anywhere, only positions relative to the top tile of the object/industry
02:04:26  <Eddi|zuHause> ah. for stations it's inaccessible because 80+ variables only start at offset 10
02:04:40  <MinchinWeb> Eddi|zuHause: I'll try it, thanks
02:05:27  <Eddi|zuHause> for industries it's var 80
02:05:40  <Supercheese> What is that in NML? :P
02:07:43  <Supercheese> Oh, right, there's a var() function
02:09:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: also, the map edge consists of VOID tiles, so the land info variable should be able to tell you that
02:09:31  <Supercheese> Ah, yes perhaps
02:13:15  <Superuser> glx: okay, that's just what they said for their Kickstarter campaign
02:13:23  <Superuser> though it may have been 'making it decent' or something like that
02:15:35  <Eddi|zuHause> it wasn't that long ago that mingw64 came with a warning sign like "totally broken, do not use"
02:17:50  <Supercheese> wait, there are only void tiles at the bottom edges of the map?
02:18:20  <glx> I would try it if I wasn't afraid to break my working mingw/msys install
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02:22:39  <MinchinWeb> ok, next (dumb) question, how do you get the location of a depot?
02:25:30  <MinchinWeb> so I think I figured this out... AIDepotList() gives you a list of tiles, rather than DepotID's
02:25:51  <MinchinWeb> so I'm starting with a location rather than a ID... much easier :)
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02:42:26  <Supercheese> Huh, there's no TILE_CLASS_VOID in NML, but a value of 0x07 seems to be just that
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03:26:19  <Supercheese> No, void tiles exist all around the map
03:26:34  <Supercheese> Thanks Eddi, I have the check for void tiletype working :)
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04:25:21  <Supercheese> Hmm, seems I accidentally confused a user whose name begins with trainmaster with a user whose name begins with trainman
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05:30:11  * Supercheese wonders just how random nearby_tile_random_bits(0,0)) % some_number is
05:30:25  <Supercheese> Bah, ignore that extra parenthesis
05:32:55  <Rubidium> at best it's pseudo random
05:33:34  <Supercheese> It works fine, I'm just curious
05:40:16  <Supercheese> Hmm, O hotkey for object placement not global by default
05:40:26  * Supercheese edits hotkeys.cfg
05:43:03  <Supercheese> Man, I cannot figure this out, why are my objects' ambient sound effects only playing in temperate, and not in arctic or tropic? What could possibly be going wrong? :S
05:43:41  <Supercheese> Some weird things in sound effect IDs?
05:48:24  <Supercheese> Perhaps NML is retuning the wrong number(s) in the high bytes
05:49:57  * Supercheese inspects NML source
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06:07:38  <Supercheese> Hmm, I guess it would help if I knew NFO, but meh...
06:11:59  <Supercheese> Or hmm, maybe it's a bug with OTTD
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07:37:04  <Supercheese> Oh dang, the sound effect issue is related to having too many grfs, it seems
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07:40:56  <peter1138> what's the error?
07:42:17  <Supercheese> Well, I have a modified version of OTTD, and when I load a game with a bunch of grfs, the ambient sound effects for my objects set only play in temperate, and they fail to play in tropic and arctic
07:42:36  <Supercheese> probable some strange bug related to having too many grfs loaded, methinks
07:43:07  <Supercheese> nothing to file a bug report over, it seems
07:43:37  <peter1138> sound effect ids are 16 bits, so unless you managed to get 65535 sounds, that's unlikely
07:43:51  <peter1138> enable grf debug messages and see if that says anything
07:44:35  <Supercheese> -d 1 grf ?
07:45:14  <peter1138> -d grf=1
07:45:20  <Supercheese> k
07:46:01  <peter1138> you will get messages about each grf
07:46:44  <Supercheese> FIRS spamming the window with messages
07:46:47  <Supercheese> should remove that
07:47:19  <Supercheese> Jeez, lots of grfs are spamming messages
07:47:36  <Supercheese> scrolling the rest off -_-
07:47:47  <peter1138> yeah that firs message should be disabled
07:47:53  <peter1138> ottd being too verbose
07:48:01  <Supercheese> Long vehicles zillion messages...
07:48:15  <peter1138> wow someone uses long vehicles? :p
07:48:15  <Supercheese> old grf though
07:48:39  <Supercheese> You should know me by now, I use more than 64 grfs
07:49:51  <peter1138> what??/
07:49:53  <peter1138> why?
07:50:00  <Supercheese> Because I like a lot of grfs
07:50:06  <peter1138> i use about a dozen tops :S
07:50:09  <Supercheese> and few people offer all-in-one versions
07:50:54  <Supercheese> As I mentioned earlier, that may be what's causing the error
07:51:05  <peter1138> it shouldn't
07:51:49  <Supercheese> aha
07:51:59  <Supercheese> Object.SetEntitySpec: Too many objects allocated.
07:52:21  <Supercheese> see, it is the reason :P
07:52:55  <Supercheese> removing some grfs resolves it
07:53:23  <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r24919 trunk/src/newgrf.cpp (2013-01-17 07:53:17 UTC)
07:53:24  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Remove useless noisy grf debug messages.
07:53:40  <Supercheese> Yep, too many objects in too many grfs
07:54:00  <peter1138> ok so your sounds aren't working because the objects aren't being loaded
07:54:14  <Supercheese> well, the objects at the front are being loaded
07:54:16  <peter1138> unless your sounds are unrelated to objects
07:54:18  <Supercheese> but their sounds aren't working
07:54:32  <Supercheese> lemme double check some stuff
07:56:35  <Supercheese> Yeah, when too many objects try to load, the ones that do successfully load have problems with their sound effects
07:56:49  <Supercheese> probably even in trunk, lemme check that
07:58:46  <Supercheese> Anyway, grfs I use:
07:59:00  <Supercheese> actually, that list is old, I've changed a few
07:59:43  <peter1138> i should never have implemented multiple vehicle set support :S
08:01:22  <Supercheese> :P
08:04:01  <Supercheese> Hmm, no trunk loads the sfx fine
08:04:11  <Supercheese> problem with the modified version, it seems
08:04:31  <Supercheese> good to know basically no one but me will have the problem, then :P
08:10:40  <Supercheese> OBJECT_CLASS_MAX     =   32
08:10:51  <peter1138> unrelated
08:10:56  <Supercheese> is that what determines...
08:10:57  <Supercheese> ok nevermind
08:11:13  <peter1138> number of classes, doesn't limit the number of objects
08:11:54  <peter1138> probably could be increased though
08:12:04  <peter1138> those 32 limits are usually due to dropdownlist sizes originally
08:12:13  <Supercheese> GUI changed since then, yes?
08:12:41  <peter1138> nah, i think dropdownlists were improved before objects
08:12:52  <peter1138> but the limit would've been carried over from station classes which was also 32
08:13:03  <Supercheese> didn't that limit increase though?
08:13:08  <peter1138> yes, after
08:13:18  <peter1138> try changing it, see what happens :p
08:13:21  <Supercheese> STAT_CLASS_MAX = 256
08:13:45  <Supercheese> changed to OBJECT_CLASS_MAX     =  256
08:13:51  <Supercheese> compiling...
08:18:11  <Supercheese> compiled, launching
08:19:00  <Supercheese> no change, same problem
08:19:11  <peter1138> longer list?
08:19:19  <Supercheese> same size list
08:19:37  <Supercheese> so total number, not class number
08:19:54  <Supercheese> where was that defined...
08:20:03  <peter1138> in the map probably
08:22:07  <peter1138> yeah, 256 objects max
08:22:13  <peter1138> cos it's stored in a byte
08:22:19  <peter1138> that includes the default objects
08:22:25  <peter1138> transmitters and whatnot
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08:23:14  <Supercheese> ObjectType NUM_OBJECTS         = 256
08:23:33  <Supercheese> increasing that possible/not?
08:23:48  <Supercheese> uint16 hmm
08:23:56  <peter1138> no
08:25:57  <Supercheese> that shouldn't be the limiting factor
08:26:24  <Supercheese> the uint16 I mean
08:32:53  <Supercheese> Huh, raising that object limit removed the "too many objects loaded" message, but the sfx still don't play
08:33:06  <Supercheese> ah well, like I said, they work in trunk
08:35:07  <peter1138> pretty much none of those objects sets are on bananas. sad.
08:35:35  <Supercheese> yeah, though one is my own
08:35:46  <Supercheese> still developing it, planning for release and bananas
08:36:01  <peter1138> i know that
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08:36:13  <Supercheese> the rest... yeah, unfortunate
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08:42:00  <peter1138> a good proportion of all the grfs on that list aren't
08:42:09  <Supercheese> Yeah, I'm just checking now
08:42:37  <Supercheese> Let's see, mb doesn't use Bananas, Simuscape-folk don't use Bananas...
08:42:54  *** Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:43:11  <peter1138> simuscape-folk don't even want you to know what's there without signing up
08:43:22  <Supercheese> Quast65 could perhaps be convinced to Banana-up
08:43:28  <Supercheese> have to poke him
08:43:38  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i think signing up doesn't even suffice for most stuff
08:43:46  <Supercheese> signing up + post in the welcome thread
08:44:48  <peter1138> crazy
08:44:48  <Supercheese> "It won't be on Bananas (yet), there are still some things I would like to add before I might consider posting it there."
08:44:56  <Supercheese> so he at least is planning on it
08:45:33  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't want to go out there today... :/
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08:46:31  <Supercheese> Quast65 = poked
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08:47:07  <Supercheese> Hmm, wallyweb doesn't banana, does he
08:49:25  <Supercheese> wait, why are VAST objects not on Bananas?
08:56:17  <Supercheese> @seen zero.eight
08:56:17  <DorpsGek> Supercheese: I have not seen zero.eight.
08:56:38  <Supercheese> "Last visited TT-forums: 	Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:44 am"
08:56:42  <Supercheese> that might be why...
08:57:06  <Supercheese> @seen dnicholls
08:57:06  <DorpsGek> Supercheese: dnicholls was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 0 weeks, 3 days, 15 hours, 27 minutes, and 36 seconds ago: <dnicholls> planetmaker: re VAST, better to talk about it in devzone channel?
08:57:14  <Supercheese> 1 year!
08:57:33  <Supercheese> wait, there's a devzone channel?
08:58:30  <Supercheese> he doesn't mean does he?
08:58:51  <Supercheese> #openttdcoop.devzone ah
08:58:54  <peter1138> probably
08:58:59  <peter1138> devzone isn't an openttd thing
09:08:09  <Ammler> 1year back, there was no .dev
09:08:25  <Supercheese> Aye
09:09:55  <Ammler> devzone is quite much a openttd thing, maybe not a thing :-P
09:10:33  <Supercheese> Openttd* thing, just reg expression 'em all together
09:16:46  <Supercheese> Hmmmm, what is the NARS license
09:17:13  <Ammler> some private pikka license, like no license
09:18:33  <Ammler> you need to read it carefully and maybe ask pikka before you reuse parts of his work
09:18:44  <Supercheese> asked
09:18:47  <Supercheese> or rather
09:18:49  * Supercheese asked
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09:28:04  <peter1138> Pikka :D
09:28:22  <Supercheese> Apparently it's DanMacK I need to ask
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09:28:53  <peter1138> hmm
09:28:57  <peter1138> maybe i should reset my nightly server
09:28:57  <Supercheese> I'm a tad too sleepy now to craft a proper private message, so I'll see if he responds to the thread
09:30:05  <Supercheese> Well, time to hit the hay
09:30:25  <Supercheese> Pulsare fenum :D
09:30:45  * Supercheese doubts the Romans used that idiom
09:31:00  <Supercheese> Ceterum, valete omnes
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09:31:28  <peter1138> hurr, i modernised my fleet
09:32:17  <peter1138> making £5m per year instead of £1m
09:32:58  <peter1138> aw look, scuddles network is jammed again
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09:38:56  <joey8> carpe dieum  ãƒ
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10:02:22  <peter1138> anyone up for making a realistic airport newgrf? :p
10:02:29  <peter1138> huge wide long runways!
10:02:30  *** APTX [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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10:04:52  <Nat_aS> ugh. that would be horrible
10:04:58  <peter1138> quite
10:05:05  <Nat_aS> because it would make all the other scale issues in OTTD more oubvious
10:05:22  <Nat_aS> that's my reaction to any sugestion involving realistic scales :p
10:08:26  *** oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
10:34:18  <__ln__>
10:35:02  *** Kurimus [] has joined #openttd
10:35:44  <peter1138> what a mess
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11:06:33  *** Pikka [] has joined #openttd
11:08:19  <Pikka> i'll make an unrealistic one, peter1138
11:13:36  <peter1138> \o/
11:13:42  <peter1138> i'm winning :D
11:13:55  <Pikka> D:
11:13:58  <peter1138> soon to be passing AtN in value
11:15:01  <peter1138> i did a beeching
11:15:14  <Pikka> you filthy swine you
11:17:50  <peter1138> hmm
11:18:12  <peter1138> tai_uk_houses-gamma1/tai_uk.grf defines house 36 with different house size than it's substitute type. Disabling house.
11:18:19  <peter1138> well that's inconsiderate
11:23:12  <Pikka> yes
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11:30:48  <Pikka> I suppose I should fix that or something?
11:31:13  <peter1138> i dunno
11:42:25  <Pikka> does it really say "it's substitute type"? tut tut :)
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11:45:26  * Maedhros tries svn blame, hoping that wasn't his fault
11:45:40  <peter1138> Pikka, yes :p
11:45:41  <Maedhros> Can't connect to host '': Network is unreachable
11:45:51  <Maedhros> seems i can live in ignorance for a while longer! ;)
11:46:55  <peter1138> indeed
11:47:13  <peter1138> and web
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11:54:41  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: is that the train the cleaning lady stole?
11:55:20  <__ln__> yep
12:05:05  <Ammler> Maedhros: we run a svn convert here:
12:12:20  <SpComb> peter1138: you\
12:12:30  <Eddi|zuHause> author  yexo  Tue, 24 Aug 2010 16:30:31 +0000 (2010-08-24) (svn r20611) -Fix: disable newgrf houses that have a different size then their substitute type
12:12:31  <SpComb> peter1138: you\re still playing that same game?
12:12:37  <peter1138> hg smells!
12:12:39  <peter1138> yes
12:12:57  <SpComb> have I gone bankrupt yet?
12:13:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the original svn could probably have been restored if hg or git were around back then :p
12:14:37  <peter1138> nah
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12:23:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i suspect frosch123's prospected desync reason would be solved by storing the cached power/speed/etc. in the savegame
12:23:35  <peter1138> yes
12:23:37  <Eddi|zuHause> at least for network games
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13:06:47  <V453000> website down? :d
13:07:06  <V453000> anyway, I have a friend who would like to do some translations, where should I send him? :)
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13:13:23  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: the link that ammler gave contains all the translations
13:13:46  <V453000> svn?
13:13:54  <Eddi|zuHause> so, where is TrueBrain, anyway?
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13:40:25  <Ammler> peter1138: michi_cc has somewhere a git convert too
13:42:02  <michi_cc> I have :) Clone of the offical repo at and clone of the full svn (with all tags/branches) at
13:43:42  <Ammler> V453000: you need to wait until the web is up again, then you should find
13:43:55  <V453000> right :)
13:44:00  <Ammler> or translator
13:44:19  <SpComb> it's broken!
13:44:22  <Ammler> I guess, the frontpage will have a link
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14:17:20  <peter1138> i just sshed to the wrong ip on my home network
14:17:34  <peter1138> to my phone by mistake
14:17:37  <peter1138> it worked :S
14:22:12  <Belugas> hello
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14:32:55  <NGC3982> Ok
14:32:56  <NGC3982> I admit
14:32:58  <NGC3982> NUTS was nice.
14:34:51  <peter1138> but not any more?
14:35:12  <NGC3982> ..
14:37:14  *** pugi [] has quit []
14:38:46  <NGC3982> peter1138: I used to feel a bit relucant on playing with it. The names made it feel childish, or something.
14:38:57  <NGC3982> But after trying it over-night, i notice it's very well built.
14:40:30  <peter1138> i see
14:40:35  *** pugi [] has joined #openttd
14:41:22  * NGC3982 has also soon finished season 1 of Voyager.
14:41:27  <NGC3982> No time wasted here, aight.
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14:42:37  *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
14:44:10  <MNIM> riiiight
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15:12:37  <peter1138> heh
15:12:46  <peter1138> so switch to git and use github ? :p
15:15:14  <blathijs> \o/
15:15:23  <peter1138> ;)
15:15:26  *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:15:50  <peter1138> Pikka, oil-fired powerstations!
15:16:16  <Superuser> you could switch to git, just don't use github ;)
15:16:33  <Superuser> don't you agree it's a bit hypocritical to host open source software on a closed-source service?
15:22:25  <Pokka> TaI has them
15:22:29  <Pokka> in tropic
15:23:14  <Pokka> I think my plan for the economic industries was to have power stations accept either coal or (fuel)oil
15:24:33  <peter1138> bah, pikka's still winning by performance rating
15:25:32  <Pokka> like ein boss
15:26:02  <Pokka> 917 is it
15:26:14  <Pokka> shame the server's down so I can't get it
15:26:17  <peter1138> 864
15:26:25  <peter1138> oh revision
15:26:28  <peter1138> 24917 yes :S
15:26:36  <peter1138> perf rating is 864, heh
15:26:44  <peter1138> mine is a measly 793
15:26:49  <Pokka> hooray
15:27:06  <peter1138> i feel the need to spend some money
15:27:13  <peter1138> £185m is a bit much
15:28:07  <Pokka> there we go, direct mirror link
15:28:22  <peter1138> hmm, would be nice to assign platform priorities
15:28:44  <Superuser> sounds like discrimination
15:28:47  <Pokka> that's what wejpoints are for
15:28:53  <Pokka> or programmable signals hue hue
15:29:04  <peter1138> yes well
15:29:34  <Pokka> doh
15:29:43  <Pokka> can't download av8 because the content server is down :)
15:29:47  <peter1138> :S
15:29:57  <Pokka> no joining the server for me
15:30:06  <peter1138> get it from the mirror!
15:31:02  <Pokka> this would require me to know where on the mirror it is?
15:32:24  <peter1138> hmm
15:32:46  <Pokka> if the bananas files are on this mirror at all :)
15:32:53  <Pokka> oh
15:33:07  <Pokka> of course, I could just unzip it from the file I uploaded to bananas, which is sitting on my desktop :)
15:33:25  <peter1138> yes
15:33:50  <Pokka> but that would be too easy!
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16:00:35  <SpComb> svn: Can't connect to host '': Connection refused
16:00:38  <SpComb> :(
16:00:42  <peter1138> banned
16:00:58  <SpComb> what is this sillyness, my git repo does not contain r24917 either!
16:01:12  <SpComb> I demand that git also contain all future commits
16:06:46  <SpComb> but ugh, cloning an svn nightly from git to join a server is nasty
16:06:48  <SpComb> wrong version string there
16:07:27  <Pokka> spcomb:
16:08:02  <SpComb> true dat
16:08:04  <peter1138> it's up now
16:08:20  <Pokka> is it
16:08:31  <peter1138> yes it is
16:08:40  <Pokka> so it is
16:08:45  <peter1138> time to update my git head :p
16:09:00  <Pokka> filthy swine
16:09:09  <peter1138> Rubidium, thanks :D
16:09:39  <SpComb> can we thundering-herd it back down again?
16:10:10  <peter1138> no, cos git isn't working
16:10:24  <SpComb> nor is svn up
16:10:40  <peter1138> is for me ;)(
16:10:49  <SpComb> hmm
16:10:54  <peter1138> might be something to do with a special url
16:10:54  <planetmaker> hg is up
16:12:53  <SpComb> my svn is just hanging, not even dying on kill
16:14:10  <Superuser> >2013
16:14:12  *** FlyingFoXy [] has joined #openttd
16:14:17  <Superuser> >still using Subversion
16:14:32  <SpComb> Superuser: it's built into the multiplayer protocol, effectively :(
16:15:15  *** FlyingFoX [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:15:18  <peter1138> yeah each command you do is a commitr
16:15:23  <peter1138> -r
16:16:48  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:17:06  <Superuser> no way jose
16:17:14  <peter1138> not quite
16:31:47  <Pokka> I won!
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16:53:45  <ZxBiohazardZx> is it possible to create a set of sprites from a 3d model (for "original ttd" not the 32bpp replacement stuff)
16:54:08  <ZxBiohazardZx> or will it look strange?
16:54:29  <Superuser> it is possible, but they'd suck
16:54:48  <Superuser> basically you're saying you want 8-bit pre-rendered 3d models ZxBiohazardZx?
16:54:58  <Superuser> and you don't need the zs and xs, this is not xbox live boy
16:55:18  <ZxBiohazardZx> i have a 3d model (blender/3dsmax) and im curisous to see if it can become a ingame useable
16:55:25  <ZxBiohazardZx> as everyone uses paint and that i simply suck at :)
16:55:43  <Pokka> plenty of sets, and I suspect plenty of the original graphics, are rendered 3d models
16:56:11  <blathijs> ZxBiohazardZx: Is there any particular reason you want to stick to 8bpp and not just use 32bpp?
16:56:30  <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz
16:56:33  <blathijs> Pokka: The original TTD graphics were created pixel art, IIRC
16:56:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> 32bpp set is wip wip wip?
16:56:45  <ZxBiohazardZx> and most sets i see use pixel-based stuff
16:57:25  <peter1138> av8?
16:57:33  <Pokka> there are plenty of artifacts and general oddness in the original graphics that makes me think at least some of them are 3d-derived, blathijs.
16:57:34  <Markk> FIRS!
16:57:37  <Markk> "Stanley is also home to the Falkland Islands Radio Station (FIRS)"
16:58:13  <Pokka> 3d isn't great for doing trains and RVs because they have an inconsistent scale in different views
16:58:35  <Pokka> for houses/landscapes/industries/whatever, ships and aircraft it should be fine.
16:58:53  <peter1138> that's why the original vehicles are 28 pixels long, probably
16:58:58  <ZxBiohazardZx> meh i hate the new blender btw
16:59:00  <Pokka> yes
16:59:06  <ZxBiohazardZx> i am too used to the older version:P
16:59:16  <Pokka> use the older version then, ZxBiohazardZx
16:59:21  <ZxBiohazardZx> 2.65 vs 0.49 is a huge step haha
16:59:22  <peter1138> imho we should've moved the parts closer together instead of stretching the graphics to 32px
16:59:35  <ZxBiohazardZx> nah just have to get used to it again:P
16:59:43  <ZxBiohazardZx> i found some nice building tutorials im trying
16:59:47  <ZxBiohazardZx> the first one works out damn nice
16:59:55  <Pokka> peter1138, it's not too late? :)
17:00:04  <peter1138> Pokka, i think it is
17:00:41  <Pokka> :)
17:01:04  <Pokka> you'd have to make them "closer together" only in the _ and | views, of course
17:01:07  <blathijs> Pokka: Perhaps rendered and then hand-edited, dunno :-)
17:01:16  <peter1138> it would, perhaps, get rid of that weird issue with the length of trains on corners
17:02:04  <Pokka> and you'd need to adjust the relative speeds of vehicles in \ and - views...
17:02:28  <peter1138> it's already adjusted in - & | views
17:02:33  <peter1138> just needs to be adjusted differently
17:03:12  <Pokka> :)
17:03:21  <Pokka> well, if we had proper perspective train lengths
17:03:23  <peter1138> and also break every single newgrf!
17:03:27  <Pokka> yes
17:03:32  <peter1138> except dbsetxl
17:03:32  <Pokka> wot larks
17:04:20  <Pokka> well
17:04:32  <Pokka> I'd have thought we'd stick with 32px as standard 8/8 length :P
17:04:39  <peter1138> return (this->direction & 1) ? 192 : 256;
17:04:56  <peter1138> hmm
17:04:59  <Pokka> so every set will end up with gaps between vehicles in the \ views
17:05:13  <peter1138> stretch that way? hmm
17:05:43  <Pokka> if you're keeping the /8 train length measurements
17:06:11  <Pokka> and 1/8 = 4px in the horizontal views
17:06:21  <Pokka> otherwise, 1/8 becomes 3px in the horizontal view :D
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17:08:45  <Pokka> although perhaps that's a better idea after all
17:08:58  <Pokka> if it allows keeping 1/8 2px in the diagonals
17:09:08  <Pokka> otherwise it ends up being some odd fraction in the diagonals :)
17:10:10  *** TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:10:24  <Pokka> and also of course it means a standard-length vehicle still fits 2 to a station tile
17:10:34  <Pokka> yeah, squashing the _ views is definitely better
17:11:09  *** LordAro [] has joined #openttd
17:11:14  <LordAro> hey all
17:12:34  <LordAro> heads up Truebrain/Rubidium: download pages are still broken
17:12:54  <LordAro> e.g.
17:13:11  *** TheMask96 [] has joined #openttd
17:13:30  <LordAro> balancer is not started?
17:18:14  <peter1138> LordAro, thanks. we're aware it's not all up & running. just waiting for TrueBrain to become available to resolve it
17:19:47  *** ZxBiohazardZx [] has left #openttd []
17:20:33  <glx> LordAro:
17:21:00  <peter1138> Pokka, way too much work to bother with :p
17:21:14  <LordAro> I'm aware that you're aware of it, i've been following the logs, and i noticed the whole lot was broken earlier :)
17:21:40  <LordAro> i didn't see anything about anything still being broken in the logs, so i came and notified you :)
17:22:00  <LordAro> glx: ta, but it was just an example, i don't actually need it :L
17:22:43  <glx> luckily we have mirrors for downloads, but of course the redirection is broken for now
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17:29:32  <Terkhen> hello
17:31:15  <hanshoi> hi
17:32:43  *** Superuser [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
17:33:22  <hanshoi> I'm thinking of adding some addons or spicing up my server. Now having a non-stop server with hard settings. It kinda gets boring after a player have gotten upperhand, and aeroplanes are bit too simple and high profit for my liking.
17:33:46  <hanshoi> So do you have any suggestions or server setups you have found to work well?
17:33:54  *** |Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
17:38:33  <hanshoi> I was thinking of adding nightly restarts, taking difficulty up a notch, downgrading aeroplane profits somehow (?), adding some statistics to a web site (?).
17:39:50  <Terkhen> for somewhat fixing the aircraft issue I like to enable infrastructure costs
17:40:03  <Terkhen> I can't help you much with the others, I usually play single player and I never hosted a server
17:41:27  <hanshoi> how does infastructure costs work?
17:44:54  <Pokka> probably, peter1138
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17:52:36  <m4as> Hi guys! i'd like to know if having a "502 Bad Gateway" is normal when i want to download thanks!
17:53:26  <V453000> it is just some temp issue m4as I think
17:53:51  <m4as> ok, i'll try again later! ty
17:54:56  <glx> m4as:
17:55:22  <Terkhen> hanshoi: <--- it is a patch thread but the patch has been included for some time
17:57:08  <hanshoi> looks hc
17:57:10  <m4as> thanks glx :)
17:58:53  <hanshoi> that affects everything else as well. Doesn't it mean that everything goes down in proportion. That aeroplanes are as good as before compared to the rest?
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18:03:12  <peter1138> it's not linear
18:04:00  <peter1138> although my infrastructure costs are minimal :S
18:04:01  <hanshoi> meaning that airports get "taxed" harder that roads?
18:05:12  <peter1138> yeah
18:05:15  <peter1138> hmm, snowing :S
18:12:50  <Terkhen> yes, they are
18:12:57  <Terkhen> check the thread, IIRC it is explained there
18:13:12  <Terkhen> I don't know the details :P
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18:14:42  <iconstil> anyone here?
18:14:57  <iconstil> i cant download the latest version
18:15:15  <iconstil> nginx server bad gateway problem
18:16:27  <iconstil> can anyone send me the binary? :D
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18:19:26  <Maedhros> iconstil: depends on what you mean by "latest", but there seems to be a mirror here:
18:19:40  <iconstil> thanks
18:19:55  <iconstil> i mean the 'normal' latest , not the nightly or such
18:20:08  <iconstil> does it works for you ?
18:20:14  <iconstil> i mean the download
18:20:20  <glx> use the mirror
18:20:31  <iconstil>
18:20:38  <iconstil> but is it just me or ...?
18:20:44  <Maedhros> no, it's everyone
18:20:48  <iconstil> thanks
18:21:19  <glx> stable is in releases/1.2.3
18:22:27  <iconstil> found it thanks again for the help
18:22:33  *** iconstil [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
18:22:57  *** Devroush [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:31:29  <dihedral> oi
18:31:36  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
18:36:27  <Eddi|zuHause> <Pokka> so every set will end up with gaps between vehicles in the \ views <-- that totally breaks trains fitting in stations and stuff
18:38:37  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
18:48:09  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, it's okay, nothing is going to change
18:48:31  <peter1138> not while the tile resolution is 16 units
18:52:10  <Eddi|zuHause> CETS would certainly break horribly if anything is changed, though :)
18:52:27  *** DorpsGek [] has joined #openttd
18:52:30  *** mode/#openttd [+o DorpsGek] by ChanServ
18:52:37  * TrueBrain hugs DorpsGek
18:52:39  <TrueBrain> silly boy
18:52:42  <TrueBrain> don't go hide now
18:52:44  <TrueBrain> it is not needed
18:52:45  <TrueBrain> you can play with us
18:52:48  <TrueBrain> like the rest o us
18:52:51  <TrueBrain> we won't bite
18:52:52  <TrueBrain> mostly
18:52:59  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes :p
18:53:10  <TrueBrain> @whoami
18:53:10  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: TrueBrain
18:53:15  <TrueBrain> @reload openttd
18:53:15  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Error: There was no plugin openttd.
18:53:18  <TrueBrain> @reload XMLRPC
18:53:18  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
18:53:37  <TrueBrain> @load openttd
18:53:37  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
18:53:41  <TrueBrain> @reload XMLRPC
18:53:41  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: The operation succeeded.
18:53:44  <TrueBrain> now whos a good boy
18:53:46  <TrueBrain> you want a cookie?
18:53:58  <DorpsGek> purrs
18:54:09  <TrueBrain> any other services not online?
18:54:26  <Eddi|zuHause> my grub is still broken :p
18:54:42  <TrueBrain> any othe related services not online?
18:56:59  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
18:57:00  *** glx [] has quit [Quit: Bye !]
18:57:03  *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:9029:b64e:2a7d:d20d] has joined #openttd
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18:58:12  <peter1138> <3 TrueBrain
18:58:37  <Eddi|zuHause> group hug for our favourite sysadmin!
18:58:40  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
18:59:41  <TrueBrain> :D:D
19:00:49  <Terkhen> :)
19:04:04  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
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19:22:35  <Wolf01> hello
19:24:25  <peter1138> hmm, openttd -g loads the intro game these days :S
19:25:28  <SmatZ> peter1138: strange, it starts a new game for me
19:25:45  <peter1138> it starts a new game after loading the intro game
19:26:24  <SmatZ> ah, yes
19:26:52  <Eddi|zuHause> hasn't it always done that?
19:27:08  <SmatZ> I think one has to first load the intro game so the newgrf scan can be shown
19:28:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, previously it probably also loaded the game, but hasn't shown anything
19:29:16  <Eddi|zuHause> "22 months without probation for using a megaphone"
19:29:34  <Eddi|zuHause> democracy is going to hell these days :/
19:29:44  <peter1138> no, before the newgrf scan window, it didn't load the intro game with -g
19:30:28  <Maedhros> does downloading newgrfs within openttd work for anyone else at the moment? or is that still known to be down?
19:30:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Maedhros: talk to TrueBrain :)
19:33:28  <peter1138> hmm, where's my multimeter... just got a shock from a usb connector
19:33:33  *** Pokka [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
19:34:08  <peter1138> the shielding part
19:44:42  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
19:47:21  <__ln__> now they're saying the cleaning lady possibly accidentally caused the train to move, not with the intention of stealing it
19:50:10  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: how do I hire a sysadmin? :P
19:50:16  <andythenorth> what makes sysadmins tick?
19:50:23  <andythenorth> developers I understand :P
19:51:58  <Terkhen> when you want to hire someone, offers of money usually work
19:52:00  <NGC3982> Carrots and kernel bugs.
19:55:00  <andythenorth> money I have
19:55:12  <andythenorth> but in the UK, hiring is very hard
19:55:22  <andythenorth> we have many more open tech jobs than people to fill them
19:55:43  <andythenorth> assuming you want good people that is :P
19:55:49  *** ntoskrnl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:57:26  <NGC3982> I thought it was the exact opposite?
19:57:31  <NGC3982> Ah
19:57:47  <NGC3982> That last part might explain it.
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20:02:23  <bassals> excuse me andythenorth
20:02:38  <bassals> I feel as I am always late
20:02:55  <bassals> but would you accept an updated translation file for FIRS?
20:03:02  <andythenorth> yup
20:03:04  <Maedhros> heh, well i'm hardly TrueBrain, but i'm open to any offers of employment going...
20:03:05  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
20:03:10  <frosch123> andythenorth: make sure there are enough power sockets for both the servers and the coffee machine
20:03:33  <andythenorth> what are servers? o_O
20:03:59  <andythenorth> we're trying to make servers go away
20:04:07  <andythenorth> :P
20:04:28  <frosch123> good strategy, makes more room for coffee machines
20:04:35  <andythenorth> exactly
20:04:42  <andythenorth> spending money owning servers is a waste
20:04:47  <andythenorth> that could be spent on good coffee
20:05:11  <andythenorth> 'use the cloud, drink more coffee'
20:05:13  <bassals> andythenorth: is this okay?
20:05:14  <bassals>
20:05:15  <andythenorth> sounds like devops borat :P
20:06:13  <andythenorth> hmm
20:06:19  <andythenorth> FIRS needs a translations manager :P
20:06:26  * andythenorth has constant unicode 'oops'
20:06:43  <bassals> yes, I did not want to mess with the encodings (-_-)
20:09:13  <Eddi|zuHause> <__ln__> now they're saying the cleaning lady possibly accidentally caused the train to move, not with the intention of stealing it <-- obviously that is way more likely, the "stealing" was invented by some overnight journalist and the whole worldwide press just copied that without checking any facts
20:10:01  <__ln__> facts are boring
20:12:01  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> andythenorth: make sure there are enough power sockets for both the servers and the coffee machine <-- vacuum cleaners are important also :p
20:12:08  <andythenorth> ?
20:12:16  <Pikka> andythenorth: pick me, I can drink coffee :D
20:12:24  <andythenorth> Pikka: are you in an australian timezone?
20:12:44  <Pikka> only one of them
20:12:47  <Eddi|zuHause> s/timezone/sleeping pattern/ :p
20:12:59  <andythenorth> Pikka: you have funny timezones
20:13:09  <andythenorth> setting servers up their for daylight savings is a fun game
20:13:13  <andythenorth> their / there /s
20:13:35  <Pikka> Eh
20:13:40  <Eddi|zuHause> make servers UTC, handle timezones client-side :)
20:13:57  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: still has to be done right :P
20:14:07  <Pikka> we're used to everyone assuming we all live in NSW or Victoria
20:14:16  <andythenorth> yeah doesn't go so well in WA
20:14:31  <andythenorth> and not if you're running apps which have to do statutory compliance stff wrt time :P
20:15:02  <Pikka> silly WA
20:15:22  <andythenorth> :)
20:15:43  <andythenorth> Pikka: which are you better at, sysadmin or coffee?
20:16:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i hate coffee. but i'd probably not make a good sysadmin either
20:16:27  <SpComb> andythenorth: you just switch over and recruit for a devops position, not a sysadmin
20:16:48  <andythenorth> SpComb: the downside of that is lots of people think devops is a silly buzzword
20:16:57  <andythenorth> which creates hiring problems
20:16:59  <Pikka> the latter would help with the former
20:17:25  <Pikka> the latte, too. hoho.
20:17:33  <andythenorth> ho ho
20:18:49  <andythenorth> omg
20:18:54  <andythenorth> look what lego did here
20:18:58  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: lots of failed mathematicans become sysadmins
20:19:01  <andythenorth> original
20:19:07  <andythenorth> new fangled
20:19:07  <frosch123> and even if they are bad, they are still average
20:19:11  <andythenorth> they introduced doors!
20:19:19  <andythenorth> I tell you, lego is going downhill
20:19:28  <andythenorth> kids of 1984 have no need of imagination
20:19:45  <andythenorth> lego have ruined themselves and are surely going out of business
20:20:00  <Pikka> meh
20:20:00  <andythenorth> doors are a specialist part with limited reusability elsewhere
20:20:12  <Pikka> rubber tyres and minifigs
20:20:44  <Pikka> lego was better when it was all 2x4 blocks
20:21:03  <Pikka> in 5 colours
20:24:55  <peter1138> yes
20:26:07  <peter1138> sorry but it is all themed crap now
20:29:10  <Pikka> harry potter and the temple of dosh
20:30:38  <Eddi|zuHause> you guys had 5 colours? my eastern lego-knockoff had two colours: red and slightly faded red
20:30:58  <Pikka> andythenorth: I've read a couple of job ads in my time
20:31:32  <Pikka> you're definitely in the minority if you believe silly buzzwords are to be avoided when hiring
20:31:38  <Eddi|zuHause> (well not entirely true, the long 2x8 ones came in yellow, and later there were also white ones)
20:32:27  <andythenorth> Pikka:
20:32:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and we had to carry the bricks uphill! both ways!!
20:34:40  <SpComb> andythenorth: exactly! And then you secretly hire the guys that think your devops thing is silly
20:34:45  <Pikka> interesting, andy :)
20:35:30  <andythenorth> SpComb: everyone thinks devops is silly
20:36:59  <Pikka> seems to be a lot of potentially not sucking going on in your workplace
20:37:03  <Pikka> and lego
20:38:26  <andythenorth> lies
20:38:28  <andythenorth> oh no truth
20:38:31  <andythenorth> dunno
20:38:46  <andythenorth> I got bored of writing job ad titles :P
20:38:57  <andythenorth> these ones get tweeeetered
20:39:01  <Pikka> fair enough
20:39:10  <andythenorth> Wanted: Writer of Job Ad Titles
20:39:13  <andythenorth> Won't Suck :P
20:40:29  <Pikka> yarp
20:42:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure there are consulting firms that you can throw money at to do that :p
20:42:18  <andythenorth> is TaI done yet? :P
20:42:31  <andythenorth> herp
20:42:32  <andythenorth> throwing money
20:42:35  * andythenorth shudders
20:42:42  *** valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
20:44:11  <Pikka> TaI is not done yet, no
20:44:32  <Eddi|zuHause>
20:44:50  *** Devroush [] has joined #openttd
20:44:59  <Pikka> I'm supposedly working on money making stuff instead :)
20:46:05  <andythenorth> o_O
20:46:14  <andythenorth> TaI for €3 per download? :P
20:46:43  <Pikka> haven't we had this conversation? :p
20:46:55  <andythenorth> about 72 times
20:47:08  * andythenorth is avoiding doing a tax return, but has no new topics :P
20:47:12  <Pikka> iono, maybe I should put it on kickstarter or something
20:47:18  <andythenorth> fair point
20:47:27  <Pikka> tax avoidance!
20:47:51  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not tax avoidance if it's less than 400€ a month
20:48:26  <andythenorth> it's not tax avoidance if you actuall do the form and pay up :P
20:48:31  <andythenorth> hmm
20:48:43  <andythenorth> 995k downloads of 'grfs wot andy has worked on'
20:49:11  <andythenorth> what shall we say is in v2.0?
20:49:17  <andythenorth> nope, did that already :P
20:49:30  <Pikka> party at a million?
20:49:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: now comes a musicmafia-style calculation that if you sue every downloader for 800€ compensation, the downloads are worth 800.000€? :p
20:50:36  <andythenorth> might be a hard case to sustain ;)
20:50:39  *** pjpe [] has joined #openttd
20:50:58  <Eddi|zuHause> if you repeat it often enough, people start to believe you
20:51:15  *** pjpe [] has left #openttd []
20:51:36  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:55:06  <Pikka> now, sprechen of coffee...
20:55:13  <peter1138> dbsetxl 0.9? oh you jester
20:55:37  <andythenorth> bassals: I added that update
20:55:51  <Rubidium> these new trains aren't that reliable yet...
20:56:02  <Rubidium> they don't reliably work (or reliably fail)
20:56:27  <Rubidium> e.g. today only 17 of the 20 trains were broken/not in service
20:57:17  <Pikka> better ground them
20:57:18  <Rubidium> also interesting that the average delay of a train can be more than 1 hour when it's an hourly service
20:58:24  <peter1138> how does one go about using a goalscript on a dedicated server?
20:59:07  <Pikka> uhoh
21:01:48  <Eddi|zuHause> like everything else: prepare game on client, upload to server...
21:02:29  *** Supercheese [~Password4@] has joined #openttd
21:02:53  <peter1138> boring
21:04:39  * andythenorth wants a 'make my game' feature
21:04:46  <andythenorth> setting up games is really really really boring
21:04:48  <andythenorth> and error prone
21:04:56  <Supercheese> Ctrl+Newgame?
21:05:11  <Supercheese> Presuming you have a grf list you like anyway
21:05:54  <andythenorth> piff paff
21:06:01  <andythenorth> all those crappy parameters and scuh
21:06:09  <andythenorth> blah
21:06:16  <Supercheese> Set parameters once, save config
21:06:38  <Supercheese> although hmm, do parameter setting reset when the grf updates
21:06:49  <andythenorth> my grf list changes a lot
21:06:55  <andythenorth> for fairly obvious reasons :P
21:06:56  <peter1138> presets need to take account of updates
21:06:58  <Supercheese> Yeah, if you have to remove/readd to the list
21:07:08  <Supercheese> that would destroy parameter choices
21:07:18  <peter1138> but presets are done by filename, not grfid/hash
21:07:25  <Supercheese> problem
21:07:25  <peter1138> could be arranged
21:07:33  * Supercheese requests grfid rather than filename
21:07:47  <Supercheese> that would help preserve parameter choices
21:07:59  <peter1138> well
21:08:11  <Supercheese> when grfs  update
21:08:44  <Eddi|zuHause> parameters could change inbetween updates...
21:08:58  <Eddi|zuHause> -in
21:09:08  <Supercheese> yep
21:13:10  <peter1138> with action 14 you could probably check they're valid
21:13:28  <peter1138> but removing then adding the grf also changes the parameters
21:15:23  <Eddi|zuHause> what annoys me most is that the "compatible version" is currently totally useless, because for "normal" user _any_ change is forbidden, and for "developers", the check is practically ignored
21:15:50  <peter1138> nowt to do with me
21:16:12  <Supercheese> non-developer users can't load a savegame if the exact grfs aren't found, but a compatible grf is?
21:16:27  <Supercheese> compatible grfs are*
21:16:52  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea, but "missing grf" is a rare case anyway
21:17:17  <Eddi|zuHause> more common is that you have both grfs, and want to use the newer one
21:17:18  <Supercheese> Haha, not with Simuscape-folk, they have caused many such cases
21:17:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i've chosen to totally ignore simuscape
21:17:42  <Supercheese> Although it's more "can't join server with old version grf"
21:18:00  <Eddi|zuHause> joining servers is a totally different case
21:18:02  <peter1138> simuscape clearly don't want people to use with grfs
21:18:05  <Supercheese> yep
21:18:07  <Supercheese> :S
21:18:17  <peter1138> not that sac ever released anything
21:18:24  <Supercheese> They pick a Creative Commons license and say "don't upload this anywhere else"
21:18:29  <Supercheese> is that... even legal?
21:19:05  <peter1138> which CC?
21:19:09  <Supercheese> checking
21:19:22  <Rubidium> Supercheese: first amendment?
21:19:37  <Supercheese> enforceable*, not legal
21:19:47  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
21:20:03  <Supercheese> (CC BY-NC-ND 3.0)
21:20:05  <Rubidium> depends on the actuall CC license
21:20:18  <Supercheese>
21:20:30  <Supercheese> "You are free: to Share — to copy, distribute and transmit the work "
21:21:01  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has joined #openttd
21:21:12  <Eddi|zuHause> of course it's not enforceable
21:21:20  <Eddi|zuHause> but if nobody does it, there's nothing to enforce
21:21:22  <peter1138> well
21:21:28  <peter1138> if they say you can't share
21:21:32  <Supercheese> They're going for a "gentlemen's agreement" I guess
21:21:35  <peter1138> then it's not cc by-nc-nd
21:21:44  *** valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
21:21:49  <peter1138> therefore none of the rest of the license applies
21:22:10  <peter1138> therefore default copyright
21:22:12  <Supercheese> "Please don't upload anywhere else, even though the license allows you to do so" more or less
21:22:15  <peter1138> therefore you can't have it
21:22:37  <Supercheese> Probably with an implicit "if people do start uploading this elsewhere, we'll never release any more grfs" :S
21:22:39  <peter1138> "Waiver — Any of the above conditions can be waived if you get permission from the copyright holder."
21:22:47  <peter1138> maybe they've misinterpreted that?
21:23:45  <Pikka> licence agreements are fun :D
21:24:10  <Rubidium> ... especially custom ones
21:24:22  <peter1138> pikka's license is fine
21:24:24  <bassals> thanks andythenorth :-)
21:24:24  <Supercheese> heh
21:24:36  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
21:24:37  <Rubidium> and the one discussed here is a custom one (due to the extra clause)
21:24:38  <Supercheese> Pikka uses Bananas, all's good
21:24:44  <andythenorth> bassals: it hasn't compiled on the compile farm yet :P
21:25:27  <peter1138> is the extra clause added to a local copy of the license?
21:26:00  <bassals> what does that mean?
21:26:27  *** m4as [] has quit []
21:26:29  <peter1138> of course, i've broken pikka's license by disassembling ukrs2, but never mind :p
21:26:44  <andythenorth> he should sue you
21:26:48  <peter1138> he should
21:26:54  <peter1138> he lost a lot of money when i did that
21:26:59  <Pikka> peter: I don't think anyone is ever going to sue over a grf
21:27:01  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: german copyright says any terms that forbid decompiling/etc. are void
21:27:02  <andythenorth> that would provide him with the money to shirk work
21:27:04  <andythenorth> and make grfs
21:27:10  <andythenorth> Pikka: sue him!
21:27:12  <andythenorth> quick
21:27:14  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, i modified it
21:27:19  <andythenorth> the easy life awaits
21:27:23  <andythenorth> see, he's admitted it
21:27:27  <andythenorth> bang to rights eh
21:27:34  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that's included in that
21:27:41  <Pikka> so a legal interpretation of sac or whoever's licence is immaterial
21:27:48  <peter1138> anyway
21:27:53  <peter1138> neither pikka nor i am german
21:28:00  <Supercheese> Hmm, the Simuscape grf in question isn't bundled with a  license
21:28:07  <Supercheese> just raw grf download
21:28:09  <Pikka> aren't I?
21:28:18  <peter1138> afaik
21:28:20  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: there may be similar laws in your jurisdiction :)
21:28:28  <Pikka> geblungen mitteraus corblimey
21:28:29  <bassals> who is wiling to testify agains peter1138 ?
21:29:11  <peter1138> mind you, some of those pixels look a bit like ttd original pixels
21:29:12  <peter1138> gosh!
21:29:37  <peter1138> yup, same palette and everything
21:29:52  <peter1138> hmm, can you copyright a palette? heh
21:30:15  <Pikka> if sac says "don't distribute this" and then bundles it with a ccby licence, you probably shouldn't distribute it.  she's made her position clear
21:30:28  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: a german court recently ruled that few measures of sampled music may already constitute a copyright violation, so certainly few pixels work as well :p
21:30:34  <Pikka> some have noted the similarities, peter :)
21:32:38  <Pikka> does my licence say you can't dissassemble, anyway? :)
21:32:45  <peter1138> no, just not modify
21:33:13  <andythenorth> I'll testify
21:33:13  <Pikka> eh
21:33:23  <andythenorth> Pikka: slip me £20, and I'll say whatever you want against him
21:33:29  <Pikka> it probably shouldn't say that
21:33:42  <andythenorth> hmm, wikipedia tells me that we used to impale people often
21:33:46  <andythenorth> and not just in Doom sprites
21:33:51  <Pikka> I don't have 20, andy
21:33:58  <andythenorth> IOU?
21:34:05  <Pikka> who's we?
21:34:12  <andythenorth> yewmans
21:34:24  <andythenorth> I wouldn't read the page about it
21:34:26  <andythenorth> icky
21:34:28  <Pikka> oh, them
21:34:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Jew men?
21:34:50  <Pikka> everyone's got to have a hobby I suppose
21:34:52  <Supercheese> €20 then?
21:35:15  <peter1138> hmm, passenger stations
21:35:20  <Eddi|zuHause> btw, why is it "human"->"humans" but not "man"->"mans"?
21:35:27  <Supercheese> humen
21:35:55  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it is
21:36:05  <Supercheese> and if you're asking about plurals being inconsistent... you'll be asking about nearly every English plural ever
21:36:09  <peter1138> oh, no content server. hmm.
21:36:15  <Eddi|zuHause> *this reply has been censored by brain*
21:36:17  <andythenorth> it has gone away
21:36:22  <peter1138> *brian*
21:36:26  <andythenorth> no bananas left
21:36:32  <peter1138> too many monkeys
21:36:34  <Supercheese> et them all
21:37:29  <Pikka> also, eddi: cease that blood libel, naughty german. :)
21:38:03  <peter1138> my aim is to draw some bloody awesome stations
21:38:08  <peter1138> code them bloody awesomely
21:38:09  <andythenorth> orly?
21:38:18  <peter1138> then release it with a BSD license
21:38:22  <andythenorth> he codes, he draws, he scores
21:38:22  <Pikka> sounds plausible
21:38:39  <peter1138> first, learn to draw... DAMN
21:39:01  <peter1138> hmm, extra zoom, that would be fun
21:39:11  <frosch123> BSD sound like bloody station drawings
21:39:21  <peter1138> frosch123, you are awesome
21:39:33  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: first, implement station support in nmlc :p
21:39:40  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, i know nothing about nmlc
21:39:59  <peter1138> what i've seen on nml is an obfuscating layer
21:40:04  <frosch123> sorry, missed the point probably :)
21:41:51  <andythenorth> peter1138: obfuscating layer with a slower compiler
21:41:55  <andythenorth> but eh, I prefer it :P
21:43:16  <Pikka> weirdo
21:43:55  <Supercheese> I still can't really read NFO
21:44:31  <xQR> that's a long downtime, you're migrating or something?
21:44:35  <Supercheese> I'd probably have learned it if NML didn't exist
21:45:44  <Supercheese> servers still on holiday?
21:45:49  <xQR> hehe yes
21:46:10  <xQR> worst thing is that the internal server browser in multiplayer is affected too this time
21:46:12  <Supercheese> have to get their work visas in order :P
21:46:17  <xQR> i guess :P
21:46:56  <xQR> it was down from 11:30 to 16:00, then up until 20:40 and since then is down again (times in UTC)
21:47:12  <xQR> so it rather seems to be several trips to different places :P
21:52:30  <bassals> bananas
21:53:03  <Supercheese> been eaten :(
21:55:00  <Eddi|zuHause> xQR: no migrating, just server hiccups, i believe.
21:56:02  <Eddi|zuHause> who you gonna call? TrueBrain!
21:56:29  <xQR> eheh
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21:56:52  <xQR> if i ever have a 4 hours long hiccup bring me to a doctor please
21:57:09  <xQR> can't be healthy ^^
22:00:19  <peter1138> hmm, how do we deal with the extra 3 pixels of 4x zoom?
22:04:14  <frosch123> two choices
22:04:35  <frosch123> 1) make it compatible with non-zoom sprites and make it look weird forever
22:04:52  <frosch123> 2) make it incompatible with non-zoom sprites and make it look fine with other zoom sprites
22:04:57  <frosch123> i prefer the second :)
22:05:04  <peter1138> me too
22:05:20  <peter1138> i know there was a big argument against it mind you
22:05:23  <frosch123> who cares about the transition between non-zoom and zoom if the non-zoom are blocky
22:05:36  <peter1138> quite
22:05:51  <peter1138> although i notice that zbase doesn't get its zoomed out sizes right
22:06:06  <peter1138> or maybe the in-game scaling does that and gets it awkward
22:07:31  <andythenorth> herm.  not snowing here
22:07:35  <andythenorth> sposed to be
22:09:02  <Eddi|zuHause> how dare it not listen to the weather forecast!!
22:11:35  <andythenorth> time for bed
22:11:38  <andythenorth> said zebedee
22:11:40  <andythenorth> bye
22:11:41  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
22:16:50  *** bassals [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
22:28:25  <frosch123> night
22:28:28  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:31:06  <Wolf01> 'night
22:31:10  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
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22:41:56  <Pikka> what 3 pixels, peter?
22:44:52  <Terkhen> good night
22:48:32  <Supercheese> Hmm, trying to find the thread about it Pikka
22:50:36  <TrueBrain> ugh, freaking MySQL Archive tables
22:50:37  <TrueBrain> they are the worst
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22:52:49  <Supercheese> Jeez, where was that thread :S
22:52:50  *** oskari89 [] has quit []
22:53:44  <Supercheese> finally
22:53:50  <Supercheese>
22:54:35  <Supercheese> Starting at more specifically
22:55:22  <Supercheese> and
22:55:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood what that discussion was actually about
22:56:09  <Supercheese> "jagged edges" mostly
22:56:47  <TrueBrain> our wiki database is 396 MiB ....
22:56:49  <TrueBrain> wow
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23:06:44  <peter1138> Pikka, the magic 3 pixels!
23:07:27  <peter1138> Pikka, 64 x 31 -> 256 x 124
23:07:39  <peter1138> Pikka, but the native 4x tile size is 256 x 127
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23:08:13  <Eddi|zuHause> why is it 31 in the first place?
23:08:25  <Supercheese> thought it was 32...
23:09:33  <peter1138> so the tiles interlock
23:12:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't get it
23:12:39  <Eddi|zuHause> between the tile (X,Y) and (X+1,Y+1) there are 32 pixels
23:12:58  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise the whole 16 steps per tile deal wouldn't work
23:13:22  <Eddi|zuHause> why are the sprites 1 pixel smaller?
23:17:18  <peter1138> because the west and east corners are only 1 pixel high
23:17:56  <peter1138> so that's 16+16-1
23:21:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't get it...
23:23:37  <peter1138> never mind eh
23:28:00  <peter1138> if you use the highlight tool on a tile, you can see the outline of it
23:28:14  *** Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:28:27  <peter1138> if you move around, you'll see tiles next to each other horizontally touch
23:28:44  <peter1138> but there's a gap of 1 pixel for tiles vertically
23:29:27  <peter1138> easier to see with 4x, heh
23:29:52  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, so the pixels are on the wrong sprite, and should be moved?
23:30:02  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:30:14  <Eddi|zuHause> or actually, they should be duplicated?
23:30:40  <Eddi|zuHause> (otherwise you just reverse the problem to horizontal instead of vertical)
23:30:52  <peter1138> there is no problem
23:30:56  <peter1138> at least, not within a tile size
23:31:32  <Eddi|zuHause> so, the problem is??
23:31:46  <peter1138> none really
23:31:51  <peter1138> it's just weird
23:31:55  <Eddi|zuHause> ah forget it...
23:32:02  <peter1138> how 4x normal graphics is 256x124
23:32:07  <peter1138> but 4x native graphics are 256x127
23:33:03  <Eddi|zuHause> so an upscaled sprite will overlap a native sprite?
23:33:37  <peter1138> ever so slightly
23:33:57  <peter1138> who came up with this shit eh? :S
23:35:51  <Eddi|zuHause> so... when only using upscaled sprites, everything is fine, when only using native sprites, everything is fine, when using mixed sprites, everything is fine, just some pixels on the border are weird?
23:36:01  <peter1138> yup
23:36:12  <peter1138> well, either overlapping or worse... missing
23:36:19  <peter1138> but never mind
23:36:29  <peter1138> it's only pixels :)
23:36:46  <Eddi|zuHause> how can they be missing if the "native" sprites are "bigger"?
23:37:03  <Supercheese> "jagged edges" again
23:37:24  <peter1138> Supercheese, yes
23:37:30  <Supercheese>
23:37:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess other than actually seeing it, i won't get it...
23:37:40  <Supercheese> attachment to illustrate
23:37:49  <peter1138> but i'm ignoring that, it's just the the 3 extra pixels amuse me, cos i'm easily amused
23:38:27  <peter1138> (it's because on the blocky version the pixels come from the sides instead of the extra 3 rows)
23:40:15  <Eddi|zuHause> "solution": just put the grid lines in these pixels, then it doesn't matter whether they overlap
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