Log for #openttd on 20th January 2013:
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00:00:40  <Supercheese> Hmm, didn't they have armed guards?
00:01:53  <peter1138> will probably have security stepped up a bit now
00:02:11  <Supercheese>
00:02:14  <Supercheese> "gas pistol"?
00:04:48  <FLHerne> Pokka: Multiplayer, with big computers and long games :P
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00:11:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: a "gas pistol" is usually a device that propells its projectiles by gas pressure instead of a small explosion
00:13:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i played a game on 2048x1024 with very few towns once
00:13:43  <Eddi|zuHause> on daylength 4 or 8
00:13:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i managed a line all the way through
00:14:11  <Eddi|zuHause> but probably around half the map i still never touched
00:18:26  <peter1138> hmm
00:18:33  <peter1138> how do water industries even work?
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00:23:50  <Supercheese> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, I looked it up:
00:24:26  <Supercheese> it seems it does use powder explosives from that description, though, as opposed to a compressed air pistol
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00:36:06  <Terkhen> good night
00:36:52  <planetmaker> good night here, too
00:37:09  <Supercheese> Valete, dormituri
00:48:07  <Wolf01> night all
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01:04:06  <peter1138> oh, maybe this is it
01:04:08  <peter1138> in which case... grrr
01:04:32  <peter1138> yes, fixed it.grrr.
01:13:09  <Supercheese> Fixed is good, no?
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01:31:17  <peter1138> yes but i wasted time :p
01:33:34  <peter1138> also it's nasty :(
01:33:47  <Supercheese> Nasty?
01:33:57  <peter1138> yeah, docks are
01:34:10  <Supercheese> Pathfinding weirdness, yeah
01:34:34  <peter1138> for all other types, vehicles stop directly on a station tile
01:34:47  <peter1138> for ships, they stop on a water tile near the station
01:35:24  <peter1138> therefore instead of just checking that the current tile is a station tile it needs to check if the tiles adjacent to the current tile are station tiles
01:36:02  <peter1138> except then there's always 8 to check
01:36:31  <peter1138> so instead it goes through the list of docks for the target station and checks if the tile is the docking tile for that dock
01:37:39  <peter1138> that list will usually be 1 item, so in theory it's only checking 1 instead of 8 tiles
01:37:42  <peter1138> but
01:38:14  <peter1138> it needs to do that for every tile the pathfinder follows :S
01:39:59  <peter1138> possibly way to simplify it is to add a 3rd invisible dock tile at the docking point that allows ships on it
01:41:09  <peter1138> oh and every step the ship takes it has to check too :S
01:41:11  <peter1138> damn
01:42:22  <Supercheese> Ship pathfinding has always seemed ridiculous...
01:42:32  <peter1138> why?
01:42:56  <Supercheese> When you force them into areas with little room to maneuver, they tend to trigger the "ship is lost" message
01:43:07  <Supercheese> but then they magically fix themselves and are not lost
01:43:25  <peter1138> well give them room then :p
01:43:58  <Supercheese> and ships always no-clip through everything
01:44:09  <Supercheese> other ship in the way? just clip right through...
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01:56:48  <drac_boy> hi
01:57:33  <Supercheese> Howdy
01:59:49  <drac_boy> how doing supercheese? and still got any seagulls? :)
01:59:51  <drac_boy> heh
02:00:15  <Supercheese> Yep, my object set now has seagulls, ice / ice floes, a shipwreck, and lots of rocks
02:00:27  <Supercheese> next I'm working in frozen rivers/riverbanks
02:00:30  <Supercheese> on*
02:02:09  <drac_boy> mm.... ice? 0_o
02:02:15  <drac_boy> hope thats only on arctic maps :P
02:02:30  <Supercheese> They're just objects, you can place them or not place them :)
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02:03:53  <Supercheese> If/when I get a GameScript able to place objects, though, then yeah, Ice will probably only be for arctic
02:03:56  <drac_boy> well ice != hot weather = tropical
02:03:58  <drac_boy> ;)
02:04:02  <drac_boy> heh heh
02:04:22  <drac_boy> that aside, how're you Supercheese?
02:04:37  <Supercheese> Hungry, at the moment
02:05:37  <drac_boy> mm
02:06:13  <Supercheese> "Food transported this hour: 0. User needs food to grow." :P
02:06:38  <Supercheese> well, growth may not be as desirable in my case ;)
02:07:04  <Supercheese> horizontal rather than vertical :S
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02:07:43  <drac_boy> :p
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07:32:37  <Hellowin> test
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09:03:40  <planetmaker> moin
09:13:10  <peter1138> hi
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09:13:43  <peter1138> hmmm, i wonder if...
09:16:08  <Alberth> moin
09:27:11  <planetmaker> hm, I should go vote... let's check wahl-o-mat whom to vote for :D
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09:33:21  <Rubidium> planetmaker: if you're conservative, vote for the Fyra. That won't move for a long time ;)
09:33:56  <V453000> if you want to have good fun voting, come to czech republic
09:34:33  <peter1138> hmm, yeah, that works but looks uuuuugly
09:34:57  <planetmaker> fyra? Sounds like a train project in the Netherlands? Not that I really heard much of it... but there's a question about whether the harbours should get better train connectivity here. Which they imho should
09:35:10  <planetmaker> not passenger, but cargo
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09:35:39  <V453000> more beer, less passengers
09:35:44  <planetmaker> ^^
09:35:45  <V453000> sounds good to me
09:36:03  <planetmaker> less passengers by more beer is also feasible :D
09:37:27  <Rubidium> planetmaker: so how's the third track from Zevenaar towards the Ruhr area going?
09:37:39  <V453000> anything around more beer is very feasible, especially when improved by less people
09:39:57  <planetmaker> Rubidium: that's outside the authority which is up to vote by me today
09:40:20  <planetmaker> it's just lower Saxony parliament voting time. Not federal government
09:41:17  <planetmaker> (and honestly, I don't know how it's going)
09:41:53  <peter1138> so multistop docks work
09:42:06  <peter1138> but i don't like the amount of searching it needs :(
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09:45:19  <planetmaker> hi andythenorth
09:45:28  <andythenorth> o/
09:45:34  <andythenorth> Pikka
09:45:37  <andythenorth> game?
09:45:51  <andythenorth> peter1138 ^
09:47:03  <peter1138> maybe it would be beneficial to test if the current tile is within the area of the docks
09:49:54  <andythenorth> ro-ro all the things
09:50:00  * andythenorth refers to stations
10:06:19  <Alberth> o/
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10:29:01  <andythenorth> it's FLHerne
10:29:04  <andythenorth> playing MP?
10:29:24  <FLHerne> What's me?
10:29:43  * FLHerne has only just got past 'drink tea' :P
10:30:46  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Not presently. Is an interesting MP game currently in existence?
10:30:59  <andythenorth> FLHerne: it's on peter1138's server
10:31:06  <andythenorth> we're all paused and waiting for you :P
10:31:15  <FLHerne> Oh, really? :-)
10:31:23  <FLHerne> What's the IP/server name?
10:31:35  * FLHerne is a bit asleep still
10:32:50  <andythenorth> peter1138's nightly
10:32:59  <FLHerne> Ah, found it. Now I need different NewStats :-/
10:33:09  <FLHerne> Stupid non-Bananas things...
10:33:24  <FLHerne> Nice grf, irritatating distribution policy :D
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10:43:26  <andythenorth> hrm
10:43:32  * andythenorth needs multi-docks :(
10:43:59  <peter1138> trying to recreate that pbs bug
10:49:33  <andythenorth> herp
10:50:08  * andythenorth has livestock issues
10:51:42  <andythenorth> hmm
10:51:53  <andythenorth> maybe farms should have a lower requirement for supplies than extractive industry
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10:52:00  * peter1138 blames it on andythenorth for deliberately crashing his trains in a station
10:52:06  <andythenorth> 'deliberately' :)
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11:00:18  <peter1138> new favourite way to play: enable colouring of dirty blocks and hold ctrl-B
11:00:58  <andythenorth> it's like 1986
11:01:24  <peter1138> industry tiles update a lot
11:01:51  <planetmaker> hm, no supercheese here
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11:29:14  <andythenorth> hmm
11:29:25  * andythenorth tries to figure out a way to prioritise cargo for some routes
11:29:39  <andythenorth> only loading vehicles for other routes when there's surplus
11:38:10  <Alberth> I was wondering about a distributed approach
11:38:56  <Alberth> each cargo has a destination. A train asks whether it wants to travel along, and the cargo can decide "yeah, you're going in the right direction", and hop on
11:40:08  <Alberth> where the simplest form of 'right direction' is distance to the target from the current location and from the next stop of the train
11:41:01  <Alberth> that might cost virtually no cpu time at all
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11:42:19  <drac_boy> hi
11:43:21  <andythenorth> Alberth: manhattan / pythag distance, or pathfinder?
11:44:27  <Alberth> in the first implementation, manhattan would be fine
11:44:59  <andythenorth> so don't bother building the link graph/
11:45:00  <andythenorth> ?
11:45:13  <Alberth> the tricky bit where I am still stuck is how to decide the cargo won't get any further, so it is time to do final cost calculations
11:45:59  <planetmaker> Alberth, but that might lead to quite bad results, depending on the topology of the network
11:46:00  <Alberth> link graph is a more advanced form of deciding 'right direction'
11:47:22  <Alberth> planetmaker: I know, but we clearly don't yet understand how to do it efficiently enough when doing it centrally, so it needs a different approach
11:48:29  <planetmaker> :-) yup, agreed
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11:50:03  <Alberth> moin Wolf01
11:50:27  <Wolf01> moin
11:52:21  <fonsinchen> Is that approach n+3 to cargo destinations?
11:52:35  <fonsinchen> I'd say distance to destination is too simple.
11:53:13  <andythenorth> I did once figure out the concept
11:53:14  <Alberth> it is, no doubt about it
11:53:22  <andythenorth> but the implementation was beyond me, even a test :P
11:53:53  <Alberth> but if you start from "we need optimal central path finding", you're never going to find a cheaper alternative
11:54:17  <andythenorth> ah
11:54:26  <andythenorth> my concept wasn't guaranteed optimal
11:54:28  <andythenorth> in any form
11:54:38  <andythenorth> it was shown that it could trivially be 'odd'
11:54:48  <andythenorth> but it was simple
11:54:58  <fonsinchen> how did it work?
11:55:37  <andythenorth> key thing was that it didn't need a source-destination-cargo triple
11:55:44  <andythenorth> just a destination-cargo pair
11:56:25  <fonsinchen> Why destination? In my experience the most common pitfall is routing each cargo packet individually
11:56:31  <fonsinchen> that is expensive.
11:56:51  <fonsinchen> Cargodist just saves general directions for each source of cargo at each intermediary hop
11:57:06  <andythenorth> idea was to work back from the destination
11:57:07  <fonsinchen> That avoids routing calculations in the game loop.
11:57:24  <andythenorth> just assign a weight to every node, in reverse, working outwards from destination
11:57:30  <andythenorth> destination gets weight 0
11:57:37  <andythenorth> each next link adds 1
11:57:53  <Alberth> ie hop-count
11:57:56  <andythenorth> when routing a packet, take any valid route to a lower-weighted node
11:58:06  <fonsinchen> what about parallel routes?
11:58:29  <Alberth> the're both valid, I guess
11:58:48  <andythenorth> both valid
11:59:04  <andythenorth> so one direct train, or a ship that goes halfway round the map (slowly) are both valid
11:59:11  <andythenorth> which is sub-optimal
11:59:13  <andythenorth> but who cares eh?
11:59:15  <andythenorth> :)
11:59:32  <andythenorth> the weightings only need recalculating when the topology changes
11:59:41  <fonsinchen> The who cares question is important.
11:59:56  <fonsinchen> Your algorithm does not take route capacities into account, either.
12:00:03  <andythenorth> no
12:00:07  <andythenorth> oh, I think I decided that the graph was made up of vehicle orders
12:00:10  <fonsinchen> So you could run tons of cargo into a bottleneck.
12:00:13  <andythenorth> yes
12:00:20  <andythenorth> so build more vehicles
12:00:38  <andythenorth> or change the route
12:01:00  <andythenorth> it's sub-optimal
12:01:17  <andythenorth> doesn't try to be optimal :)
12:01:31  <fonsinchen> Well, sometimes you want something like a couple of helicopter connections to an oil rig but you don't want everyone traversing the oilrig to get from town A to town B...
12:01:32  <andythenorth> call it StupidDispatcher
12:02:25  <fonsinchen> I know that Cargodist is fairly complex in contrast with the scheme you're proposing. But it also does more.
12:02:32  <andythenorth> another / complementary option: player defines cargo route (is that how simutrans does it?)
12:03:14  <fonsinchen> Simutrans does routing on an individual packet level. That's part of the reason why it's so slow in contrast do openttd.
12:03:33  <fonsinchen> No, the player does not manually define the routes.
12:03:41  <andythenorth> hmm
12:03:44  <fonsinchen> It's more like YACD.
12:04:11  <fonsinchen> Destinations are predetermined independent of links.
12:05:12  <andythenorth> idea: allow player to manipulate the weighting for a cargo-destination pair at a station :P
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12:05:34  <Alberth> haha, a good idea for total disaster :p
12:05:52  <fonsinchen> nasty micromanagement hassle. We have the same problems with timetables. I guess we don't want to repeat that.
12:06:36  <Wolf01> agreed
12:09:54  <andythenorth> yup
12:10:59  <andythenorth> oil rig case is...intriguing
12:11:08  <andythenorth> because it's by no means the common case
12:11:28  <Wolf01> micromanagemente could be good, some people want it, but I think it should be bypassable, at least we can play OTTD also without using timetables :P
12:12:02  <andythenorth> I can't think of a way to handle special cases using generic methods
12:12:05  <fonsinchen> You can also take the example of local bus networks of two towns intersecting at some remote station where once a month a bus arrives.
12:12:32  <andythenorth> so that resolves to link capacity?
12:12:45  <andythenorth> (I think the oil rig case is best ignored, it's the helicopters that matter)
12:13:04  <Wolf01> you should be able to define some stations as hubs and don't let the cargo be transferred in non-hub stations
12:13:09  <drac_boy> Wolf01 I always play 'simple' anyway ... that mean skipping most of the extra features even schedulings too :)
12:13:13  <fonsinchen> Taking link capacity into account avoids sending too much cargo through that station.
12:13:30  <andythenorth> how is link capacity reliably calculated?  Empirically?
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12:13:41  <fonsinchen> Measured as a moving average.
12:13:47  <fonsinchen> Works fairly OK.
12:13:57  <Wolf01> where "transferred" is not the transfer order but the destination handling
12:14:16  <andythenorth> fonsinchen: I can't think of any other viable method ;)
12:14:30  <fonsinchen> Cargodist does it with moving averages.
12:14:31  <andythenorth> trying to predict link capacity from vehicle speed etc is....meh
12:14:43  <fonsinchen> I can think of a better method though.
12:14:58  <andythenorth> ?
12:15:20  <fonsinchen>
12:15:36  <andythenorth> hrm
12:15:45  <andythenorth> do you measure cargo transported, or actual capacity available?
12:15:51  <fonsinchen> both
12:16:05  <andythenorth> and what does auto-refit do to your stats?
12:16:25  <fonsinchen> There is a funny prediction mechanism for that
12:16:51  <fonsinchen> basically, if you do autorefit it does not work so accurately.
12:16:52  <Wolf01> nice, I was looking for how a bus line capacity is calculated and I landed on this: we should really implement this :P
12:22:07  <andythenorth> herp
12:22:12  <andythenorth> my concept is screwed by auto-refit
12:22:27  <andythenorth> there's no way to calculate the cargo-destination pairs using orders
12:23:24  * andythenorth has a totally insane idea
12:23:25  <fonsinchen> Oh, you can get pretty far with orders. Cargodist actually does that when a vehicle does full load or similar.
12:23:41  <andythenorth> 'refit' stations to handle cargos
12:23:53  <andythenorth> station is either on the graph for a cargo, or not
12:24:27  <andythenorth> and vehicles are universal and auto-refit :P
12:24:42  <Terkhen> hello
12:24:44  <andythenorth> so routing is about nodes, and not the links
12:25:58  <fonsinchen> That would piss off quite a few grf authors designing specific vehicles for specific cargo ...
12:26:02  <andythenorth> currently nodes are transparent wrt cargo; the links specify what's transported :)
12:26:11  <andythenorth> fonsinchen it would turn the game on its head :P
12:26:24  <andythenorth> NUTS would be ideal for it though
12:27:01  <fonsinchen> Well, explain it Ammler and see what he says ...
12:27:29  <andythenorth> he
12:27:44  <fonsinchen> I have to leave. Bye
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12:43:31  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r24923 trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp (2013-01-20 12:43:25 UTC)
12:43:32  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5441]: When an object built on a river is removed, restore the river, if possible also on slopes (based on patch by Supercheese)
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12:51:12  <andythenorth> o_O
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12:57:22  <Wolf01> quak frosch123
12:57:39  <frosch123> moin :)
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13:03:12  <juanjo> hello
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13:11:38  <juanjo> peter1138: is there any way to see how you deal with multidocks? i would like to see how you manage certain details i never could get through.
13:11:59  <peter1138> hmm, which details?
13:14:24  <juanjo> opf was the worse one. oil rigs were also troublesome for my implementation.
13:14:37  <peter1138> i didn't bother for opf
13:14:42  <peter1138> it just targets the first dock built
13:16:29  <juanjo> do ships select an empty dock?
13:16:44  <peter1138> i have not implemented that
13:16:47  <peter1138> they just go to the nearest
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13:19:03  <juanjo> so when they look for next destination, they choose the dock that is nearest, do they?
13:20:14  <peter1138> nope, they go the area the docks cover and find the docks from there
13:20:24  <peter1138> to be honest it's a bit magical for me :p#
13:20:46  <peter1138> i remember road vehicles used to pick a specific slot and then go to it, but that got changed at some point
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13:24:03  <juanjo> so, you don't need to store a pool for docks. nice
13:24:38  <frosch123> rv still pick and reserve a specific stop
13:25:28  <frosch123> the sum of the length of rv having an reservation affects the pathfinder cost, so rv can balance between the stops
13:25:39  <frosch123> though i guess they only reserve when they are somewhat nearby
13:27:14  <juanjo> i'll have to check road vehicles then :-)
13:32:54  <juanjo> bye!
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13:50:16  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r24924 trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp (2013-01-20 13:50:10 UTC)
13:50:17  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r24923): Make sure that autoslope on steep coast tiles cannot not leave invalid canals
13:50:37  <Wolf01> cannot not?
13:51:12  <planetmaker> meh :D
13:51:26  <planetmaker> moar tea needed
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14:00:39  <peter1138> frosch123, afaik they don't reserve
14:00:58  <peter1138> frosch123, if a spot is marked as occupied the pathfinder will prefer a different spot
14:01:09  <andythenorth> diagonal tunnels anyone? :P
14:01:17  <andythenorth> for making tubes :P
14:01:31  <peter1138> the original version of the current version did reserve, but iirc led to some awkward situations
14:01:49  <peter1138> they reserved 16 tiles in advance
14:01:54  <peter1138> which is far for rvs
14:01:56  * FLHerne would love diagonal bridges and tunnels
14:02:09  <frosch123> ah, yeah, maybe it only considers vehicles already stopeed
14:02:46  <FLHerne> Presumably fancier bridgeheads/entrances (at least allowing diagonal track) would be needed for that?
14:03:11  <peter1138> there was an original-original version that was different again but you'd have to go back some revisions to find that
14:04:37  <peter1138> i could make multistop docks occupy slots
14:04:45  <peter1138> but it's rv-centric atm
14:05:05  <peter1138> was thinking of renaming RoadStop to MultiStop, heh
14:05:21  <peter1138> or... VehicleStop? who knows
14:05:51  <peter1138> cos they're off-map it would be possible to reference the fabled state machine in there too :p
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14:36:04  <andythenorth> I would like to subscribe to your VehicleStop newsletter please
14:36:10  <andythenorth> hrm
14:36:13  <andythenorth> anyone ever played FIRS?
14:39:48  <NGC3982> wat.
14:39:49  <NGC3982> :D
14:42:31  <andythenorth> considering reducing the amount of supplies needed to boost farms
14:43:54  <NGC3982> Not that i know how that works, but i have observed that farm production doesnt increase with farm supplies, like mineral industries increases production with
14:44:05  <NGC3982> Or is that just something in my head?
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14:51:56  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24925 /trunk/src (genworld_gui.cpp lang/english.txt) (2013-01-20 14:51:50 UTC)
14:51:57  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5395]: Add a tooltip to the mapsize selection mentioning possible deviations.
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15:00:22  <andythenorth> in your head
15:01:01  <Pikka> new(road)port(types)
15:02:33  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24926 trunk/src/stdafx.h (2013-01-20 15:02:28 UTC)
15:02:34  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5373]: Check integer min/max macros individually, and define them if missing.
15:03:38  <NGC3982> andythenorth: So, that notion is false?
15:06:01  <peter1138> andythenorth's losing!
15:08:26  <__ln__> what's going on here:
15:09:13  <__ln__> and here especially:
15:11:21  <andythenorth> peter1138: baby minding here :(
15:11:24  <andythenorth> can't play :P
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15:15:03  <peter1138> naughty fishing harbour
15:15:12  <peter1138> extends past the tile edge :S
15:15:14  <andythenorth> yes
15:15:17  <andythenorth> I should fix that :P
15:15:20  <andythenorth> flickers
15:16:04  <NGC3982> ..?
15:16:09  <NGC3982> Why did i even try.
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15:29:35  <andythenorth> maybe the FIRS boost is a bit volative
15:29:39  <andythenorth> volatile /s
15:30:18  <Alberth> tolavive :)
15:31:23  <andythenorth> benefit of current method: simple
15:31:39  <andythenorth> disadvantage: production collapses easily if a vehicle jam happens
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15:34:23  <peter1138> bah, renaming roadstops is way too much work :p
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15:38:17  <andythenorth> get NGC3982 to do it
15:40:02  <peter1138> plus they're saved with the chunk tag of "ROAD" :p
15:40:42  <andythenorth> it's all hopeless :P
15:40:54  <peter1138> heh
15:41:01  <andythenorth> there's nothing left to do but
15:41:04  <andythenorth> Jump
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15:41:44  <andythenorth> can't you see what I mean?
15:41:49  <peter1138> go ahead
15:41:50  <andythenorth> might as well jump
15:41:50  <peter1138> jump
15:41:55  <peter1138> do de do do de
15:41:58  <peter1138> do de do do dum
15:43:41  <andythenorth> nobody answered my FIRS question
15:43:46  <andythenorth> nobody cares :(
15:45:19  <V453000> is there any way how to make one vehicle introduce another?
15:45:34  <V453000> Like, I have wagons which fit to a vehicle, is it possible to unify their introduction date?
15:45:50  <V453000> because if I set the same value the game still randomizes it in the span of 2 years or whatnot
15:47:05  <peter1138> no
15:47:31  <V453000> thought so, thanks
15:58:56  <Pokka> there was some talk at one point of a flag to not randomise the vehicle's intro date
15:59:03  <Pokka> for this purpose
15:59:34  <planetmaker> rather like a flag "introduction same as ID XY"
16:00:33  <andythenorth> intro date pool
16:00:39  <V453000> would make some sense to have that I think, though not massively necessary, in my case I just have wagons arrive 2 years earlier. Does not hurt and when you see the vehicle being introduced in the news you know you can use it, so no harm anywhere
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16:17:30  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r24927 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2013-01-20 16:17:24 UTC)
16:17:31  <DorpsGek> -Cleanup [FS#5440]: No need to check a positive value to be larger than 0
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16:28:53  <Hyperion> Good evening
16:29:39  <frosch123> moin
16:31:21  <Hyperion> question from a beginner. How do I know whether I have too many vehicles picking up from a resource?
16:31:43  <Hyperion> I mean, is there an optimal way to do it?
16:32:02  <andythenorth> is there a big queue?
16:32:12  <andythenorth> big queue => too many
16:32:27  <planetmaker> Hyperion, there's too many when the entrance is jammed and vehicles wait on an empty station to pickup cargo
16:34:03  <Hyperion> What if I have 2 trucks in a loading bay, one is creeping up from 50% and the other is waiting at 0%
16:34:20  <andythenorth> sounds ok
16:35:20  <Hyperion> ok, how about the idea of supply/demand - if I have one vehicle making trips and easily filling 100% and always a stockpile at the resource, is this worse than having the situation i just mentioned?
16:35:34  <Hyperion> in terms of the production increasing over time
16:35:45  <andythenorth> get more vehicles in that case
16:35:58  <planetmaker> one vehicle loading, the other already waiting to start loading is best in terms of increasing production on primary industries
16:37:58  <Hyperion> thanks guys. is the spacing between vehicles important, then?
16:38:11  <Hyperion> in terms of where they are on the route relative to eachother
16:38:28  <planetmaker> no. It only matters that you always load cargo
16:38:57  <Hyperion> right. so the resource should always be in the vehicles debt, not the reverse?
16:39:07  <andythenorth> yes
16:39:30  <Hyperion> ok. i was worried about wasting resources by having vehicles waiting at 0%, but that seems ok
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16:39:54  <Hyperion> i mean, wasting money
16:40:31  <Eddi|zuHause> if you have not enough money, you're probably doing something wrong :)
16:40:36  <planetmaker> Hyperion, "ok" is also a very relative thing :-) Depends on your goal. You might make more money, if you do not fulfill the goal to "always load" by a thin margin
16:41:09  <planetmaker> But long-term you get higher output by always fulfilling the condition to load continuously
16:41:19  <planetmaker> so the time horizon matters
16:41:44  <planetmaker> also the amount of micro-management you want to put in:
16:42:09  <planetmaker> like buy 4 vehicles for that station. Initially it will be crowded and unneeded. But it means it takes some time before you have to come back and add more vehicles
16:42:23  <planetmaker> Time which you could better spend on improving your company elsewhere
16:42:37  <peter1138> hmm
16:42:42  <peter1138> is that what i'm meant to be doing?
16:42:45  <planetmaker> As time to build is the limiting factor at a default game after ~10 ingame years worth of playing
16:42:53  <peter1138> i just end up watching trains moving along tracks :p
16:43:00  <planetmaker> haha :-)
16:43:07  <Pokka> choo choo
16:43:20  <Hyperion> will primary resource production move up naturally or does it depend on this situation of "always load" ?
16:43:27  <Pokka> that's why you're losing, peter1138
16:43:43  <planetmaker> Hyperion, it depends on the station rating...
16:44:10  <Hyperion> the % transported stat?
16:44:11  <peter1138> =yeh
16:44:33  <peter1138> Pokka, it's your fault
16:44:46  <Pokka> is it
16:44:53  <michi_cc> peter1138: That's the reason I want a daylength path for. How are you supposed to watch your nice vehicles if there's a new one all the time :p
16:44:55  <planetmaker> @ Hyperion
16:45:03  <peter1138> exactly!
16:45:06  <peter1138> yadp!
16:45:17  <andythenorth> peter1138: you losing? o_O
16:45:22  <Hyperion> thanks planetmaker
16:45:26  <peter1138> probably
16:45:27  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: +1 :p
16:45:31  <Pokka> FLHerne is losing
16:45:39  <peter1138> actually yacd first ;)
16:45:42  <Pokka> peter is second loser
16:45:58  <peter1138> pikka and andy are joint third losers
16:46:07  <andythenorth> bah
16:46:17  <Eddi|zuHause> "2nd is just the first loser"?
16:46:21  <peter1138> heh
16:46:29  <peter1138> actually andy's got the most money
16:46:34  <andythenorth> I got bored of the silly FIRS production
16:46:37  <peter1138> but pikka's gonna catch him
16:46:38  <andythenorth> silly FIRS
16:46:50  <andythenorth> is my Toob not printing money?
16:46:51  <peter1138> toyland next time!
16:46:56  <Pokka> oh
16:47:01  <Pokka> andy has zellepins
16:47:03  <Pokka> no wonder he's winning
16:47:10  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but no opengfx allowed :p
16:47:26  <Pokka> supply zellepins
16:47:27  <peter1138> who uses opengfx anyway?
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16:47:37  <Pokka> no-one
16:48:00  <Pokka> which is why it's odd you leave the track building tools for finescale tracks on openttd graphics ;)
16:48:00  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: all the newbies that don't know any better
16:48:05  <Pokka> parameters are a pain
16:48:35  <peter1138> hmm
16:48:38  <peter1138> never noticed
16:48:46  <peter1138> you should label it opengfx not openttd
16:49:07  <peter1138> and make a new release just for that!
16:49:10  <Hyperion> whats wrong with opengfx?
16:49:22  <planetmaker> nothing at all
16:49:27  <andythenorth> my zeps are simply Super!
16:49:35  <Pokka> zuperdooper
16:49:53  <Pokka> they even make a profit
16:51:02  <Pokka> look at this filthy brarnpool to confingford railway
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16:51:38  <Pokka> shamefur dispray
16:51:39  <me> anyone online
16:51:53  <planetmaker> @seen anyone
16:51:53  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: anyone was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 2 weeks, 2 days, 0 hours, 24 minutes, and 22 seconds ago: <anyone> hi
16:51:55  <planetmaker> nope
16:52:13  <peter1138> brarnpool?
16:53:06  <peter1138> oh great brarnpool
16:53:07  <peter1138> hmm
16:55:03  <me> ok well i need info what did they use to develop TTD
16:55:35  <Pokka> a fork and a bag of string
16:55:37  <planetmaker> time, patience and many electrons
16:56:27  <me> seriously
16:56:30  <peter1138> a text editor was probably involved
16:56:30  <planetmaker> seriously
16:56:36  <Pokka> the money and experience from porting Frontier: Elite II to the PC?
16:57:05  <me> do you guy know how games are made
16:57:56  <Alberth> by designing them, and for computer games, followed by implementing them in a computer language
16:58:44  <planetmaker> me, you really want to consider your questions... a question like "how do you write a computer game" simply can't be answered...
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16:58:56  <Alberth> me: You may want to read a bit
16:59:08  <planetmaker> ... except by more or less lengthy articles
16:59:21  <Alberth> s/or less //  :)
16:59:31  <planetmaker> :-)
17:00:13  <planetmaker> nice, Alberth :-)
17:00:32  <Alberth> yeah, isn't it? :D
17:01:19  <me> Alberth nope first get a 3d modeler and the start programming in C++ make a game engine and more. im not DUm i am a game designer myself i thourt you may kome what TTd was made with becuse it's the same UI and land as roller coaster tycoon 2
17:01:26  <Alberth> planetmaker:  for some moving pictures :)
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17:02:02  <peter1138> 3d modeler eh
17:02:06  <planetmaker> hahaha :-)
17:02:10  <Alberth> me: right, that's a far more specific question
17:02:20  <Pokka> getting a 3d modeler is definitely the first stage in making a game...
17:02:34  <Alberth> me: 3d modelers didn't exist at the time TTD was created
17:02:38  <planetmaker> yes. a game. But we're playing THE game here ;-)
17:02:43  <peter1138> Alberth, bet they did :p
17:02:47  <andythenorth> isn't there a wiki page about how OpenTTD was reverse engineered?
17:02:53  <andythenorth> maybe even a wikipedia page
17:02:59  <peter1138> andythenorth, not even the question
17:03:08  <andythenorth> I am taking him at face value :P
17:03:13  <andythenorth> oh no
17:03:15  <andythenorth> I see the point
17:03:20  <peter1138> ttd and rct were hand written assembly
17:03:25  <Alberth> me: Roller Coaster 2 is the TTD engine, 2 generations later
17:04:05  <peter1138> it was made ... by coding assembly instructions o_O
17:04:11  <me> andythenorth thats what im looking for. Alberth i got that one any idea of what it's called
17:04:27  <peter1138> it's called ttd
17:05:20  <andythenorth>
17:05:32  <andythenorth> has background, not much detail
17:05:47  <Ammler> oh, rct has map rotation :-o
17:05:51  <andythenorth> Pikka: you haz a plane?
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17:06:08  <planetmaker> yes, seems like Ammler :-)
17:06:08  <Pokka> two
17:06:39  <Alberth> Ammler: yep, new engine feature in RCT (and quite needed imho)
17:06:59  <peter1138> heh
17:07:06  <peter1138> anyone tried map rotation in ottd?
17:07:15  <peter1138> obviously ignoring the sprite issues
17:07:19  <planetmaker> with sprites all new, you can do that. As long as people here are like "TTD" it won't happen
17:07:35  <Ammler> planetmaker: you don't need that many new sprites, do you?
17:07:42  <peter1138> Ammler, loads
17:07:58  <Pokka> if not more
17:07:59  <planetmaker> depends. Not that many. Of the order of 1k ... 2k
17:08:18  <planetmaker> no new road/rail/bridge/landscape/vehicle sprites needed
17:08:19  <Ammler> many things you can rotate already
17:08:22  <planetmaker> only houses + industries
17:08:30  <Ammler> only non square houses
17:08:42  <planetmaker> well. All houses. Would look funky otherwise
17:08:46  <Ammler> many industries are also made with square support
17:09:03  <Ammler> you don't need to rotate a square house
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17:09:09  <frosch123> planetmaker: depends whether you ignore light direction for landscape :p
17:09:09  <planetmaker> But most of base sets are landscape, vehicles + gui
17:09:21  <planetmaker> :-) yes, I do, frosch123
17:09:37  <Alberth> throw in some zbase render time? :p
17:09:58  <peter1138> no comment
17:10:20  <peter1138> planetmaker, anyway, i said ignoring the sprites
17:10:31  <Alberth> not sure whether it actually works, maybe Z didn't completely model all sides
17:10:33  <peter1138> planetmaker, i.e. actually done code changes to rotate it all
17:10:34  <planetmaker> that's a pointless pre-condition peter1138
17:11:03  <Ammler> but not reason not to try
17:11:26  <Ammler> a*
17:11:47  <me> i see but also if you look at simcity 2000  and te sims 1 and simcity 3000 te terrain was te same
17:12:16  <peter1138> no it's not
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17:23:14  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24928 trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqcompiler.cpp (2013-01-20 17:23:08 UTC)
17:23:15  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5408]: [Squirrel] Update line information before processing 'while' token of 'do'-'while' statement.
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17:51:41  <andythenorth> hmm
17:51:47  * andythenorth is boondoggled
17:51:51  <andythenorth> by FIRS supplies still
17:52:43  <andythenorth> production is 1x, 2x (boost), 4x (extra boost)
17:52:48  <andythenorth> at primaries
17:53:01  <andythenorth> this leads to wild fluctuations in available cargo
17:53:15  <andythenorth> which is useful in a cargo-goal challenge
17:53:19  <andythenorth> but not otherwise
17:53:24  <planetmaker> depends on the integration time really
17:53:41  <andythenorth> if you want a nice steady game, the 2x then 4x boost is a PITA
17:53:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: mimic the behaviour of smooth economy :)
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17:54:11  <andythenorth> it's very hard to tune
17:54:23  <andythenorth> the needs of a collaborative MP game with 7 year cargo goal
17:54:26  <andythenorth> are very different
17:54:28  <planetmaker> like 10% increases and 10% decreases
17:54:31  <andythenorth> to playing SP for 100 years
17:55:11  <planetmaker> so not 3 levels but... 10. With like every level requiring 3 supplies more or so
17:55:15  <andythenorth> the easy way is a parameter
17:55:24  <andythenorth> but that's Yet Another Fricking Parameter To Forget
17:55:28  <andythenorth> when setting up an MP game
17:55:50  <planetmaker> not as parameter. As change to existing
17:56:11  <planetmaker> i.e. make levels not *2 but +10 or so
17:56:19  <planetmaker> in production
17:56:37  <planetmaker> and needed supplies not *2 but +5. Or whatever
17:56:49  <andythenorth> biab
17:56:52  <andythenorth> bath time ;)
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17:56:56  <planetmaker> :-)
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18:16:53  <peter1138> hmm
18:23:34  <oskari89> Oh why there's no sorting of different types of locomotives and other rolling stock stuff in the rail vehicle replacement window?
18:24:09  <oskari89> I would like to arrange them by speed but can't
18:24:23  <oskari89> Those seem to be arranged by vehicle ID's
18:24:50  <planetmaker> unless the sorting is re-arranged by the NewGRF(s) :-)
18:24:52  <peter1138> write a patch :p
18:25:05  <peter1138> planetmaker, internal detail ;)
18:25:31  <frosch123> i am quite sure that item is on the todo list :p
18:25:56  <Wolf01> I must go, bye
18:25:58  <peter1138> i think i saw it too
18:26:02  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
18:26:05  <planetmaker> bye, wolf...
18:29:06  <Eddi|zuHause> oskari89: it shouldn't be too hard to copy the behaviour of the purchase window
18:29:37  <frosch123> "it shouldn't be too hard"... can we ban this sentence?
18:30:24  <Alberth> ask the bot that kicks !commands :p
18:31:27  <peter1138> "i'm not a programmer but this shouldn't be too hard"
18:32:42  <frosch123> yeah, just rotate the sprite
18:32:53  <frosch123> every graphics program can rotate sprites in 90° steps
18:33:08  <peter1138> :D
18:34:14  <Zuu> Can't we just rotate the view 90 degreen as most graphics cards have a setting (to use when showing on a vertical monitor)
18:34:58  <Zuu> Then we can put a check for "can rotate the view" and everyone will be happy that we have "rotatable view" in the feature list?
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18:43:55  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24929 trunk/src/ai/ai_gui.cpp (2013-01-20 18:43:49 UTC)
18:43:56  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5415]: Don't try to pause or unpause crashed scripts.
18:45:45  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24930 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2013-01-20 18:45:34 UTC)
18:45:46  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:47  <DorpsGek> english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
18:45:48  <DorpsGek> french - 2 changes by glx
18:45:49  <DorpsGek> german - 3 changes by planetmaker
18:45:50  <DorpsGek> irish - 11 changes by ioo5
18:45:51  <DorpsGek> brazilian_portuguese - 110 changes by Tucalipe
18:45:52  <DorpsGek> spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
18:47:00  <frosch123> he, translators managed to get below 30k missing strings!
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18:48:40  <planetmaker> nice. The call for translators really seems to work. We're still getting a somewhat steady stream of people who apply as new translators
18:49:00  <oskari89> :)
18:49:33  <frosch123> i remember somewhat like a year ago, when i asked whether translators would first reach 25k or ottd would first reach r25k... but rb laughed me off like we would never reach r25 so fast :p
18:49:34  <oskari89> Someone could update that on the front page, which are already done, remove them completely from list
18:50:38  <planetmaker> well... I don't see hitting < 25k strings (if that was the direction the statement was intended)
18:51:17  <frosch123> yes, it was. translators slowed down just like the commits
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18:52:03  <planetmaker> oskari89, the front page is up to date
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18:56:56  <planetmaker> but we got in the last 7 days new translators for Urdu, Esperanto, Turkish, Irish, Hebrew, Simplified Chinese... half of those languages need a translator urgently
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18:58:27  <frosch123> well, if ottd would be as popular in asia as in europe, it would be no issue at all to find an urdu translator :p
18:58:50  <planetmaker> :-)
18:59:13  <planetmaker> I should bully my Pakistan collegue to translate ;-)
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19:00:49  <joey8> can anyone tell me why when i buy a plane with a high percentage reliability crashes within one flight
19:01:35  <planetmaker> crashes are not related to reliability. But happen any case with low chance. Or high chance, if the aircraft is large and the airport small
19:01:36  <Zuu> reliability have nothing to do with the chance of crashes
19:01:48  <planetmaker> All on the condition that aircraft crashes are not switched off in the adv. settings
19:02:30  <joey8> planetmaker➀ Oh ok thanx mate
19:02:32  <Zuu> reliability only affect the chance of the aircraft to "break down" in the air. A broken down aircraft will emit smoke and fly slower than usual but not crash.
19:03:03  <joey8> Zuu➀  oh ok thank you
19:03:13  <joey8> i am very unlucky - they keep crashing
19:03:27  <planetmaker> large planes on small airport... :-)
19:03:54  <joey8> planetmaker➀ ok thanx i will build a bigger airport
19:04:08  <planetmaker>
19:04:16  <joey8> ãƒ
19:04:16  <Zuu> Isn't the chance 1 in 5 or something like that for large planes or small airport. (with original chances)
19:04:16  <planetmaker> lists small and big planes
19:04:23  <planetmaker> yes, I think so, Zuu
19:05:14  <Zuu> The other probability with a large enough airport for the plane is something like 1 in 30. IIRC
19:05:44  <planetmaker> hm... the UI doesn't tell whether an aircraft is large or small?
19:06:06  <Zuu> No, only with certain plane sets
19:06:16  <planetmaker> bad :-)
19:06:26  <Zuu> Eg. av8 have some GUI element that show this.
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19:06:54  <planetmaker> yes. as newgrf extra string. Thus you have to go a cetrain way as author to supply it.
19:06:54  <Zuu> For default aircraft, you will need to set a custom company colour for small or large aircraft to see which ones that are large/small in the buy menu.
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19:07:55  <Zuu> Or you are an AI, and use the available API method. :-)
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19:09:17  <planetmaker> :D
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19:30:52  <Rubidium> frosch123: so quickly dump something big into trunk so we are getting way about 30k again?
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19:33:43  <peter1138> newmaparray!
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19:35:57  <frosch123> new(maparray) or (newmap)array?
19:36:35  <Supercheese> Yes.
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19:39:35  <andythenorth> Pikka: game on?
19:39:45  <andythenorth> 1937 already :o
19:40:28  <andythenorth> peter1138: FLHerne ^^
19:40:32  <peter1138> wur
19:40:41  <FLHerne> Ploing!
19:41:23  <FLHerne> Is there a question?
19:41:55  <andythenorth> herm
19:41:59  <andythenorth> conditional orders
19:42:03  <andythenorth> do people actually do that ?
19:42:15  <planetmaker> sure
19:42:45  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Muchly. Handy with autorefit
19:43:05  <FLHerne> Not yet in this game though
19:49:48  <peter1138> no, it's not used
19:59:41  <planetmaker> you should like open your own server channel...
20:01:13  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah. because we very much hate it when people talk about playing the game in here
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20:16:53  <Rubidium> yeah, we should talk about colobot again ;)
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20:26:51  <peter1138> hmm
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21:50:23  <andythenorth> peter1138: end of game?
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21:50:30  <peter1138> for now for me
21:50:33  <peter1138> carry on if you wish
21:50:34  <andythenorth> +1
21:50:36  <andythenorth> bed
21:50:45  <andythenorth> worky worky tomorrow
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22:46:06  <__ln__> why isn't there a translation in occitan?
22:48:02  <Supercheese> arctan only goes from -π/2 to π/2... oh wait-
22:48:06  <Supercheese> :P
22:49:05  <__ln__> no, no, other kind of tan
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23:50:09  <Terkhen> good night
23:54:10  <planetmaker> night
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