Log for #openttd on 9th February 2013:
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00:00:10  <Pikka> goodnight
00:00:16  <andythenorth> ciao
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00:00:18  <Pikka> don't let the bedships bite
00:01:03  <Supercheese> They're not bedbugs, they're bedfeatures
00:03:33  <Eddi|zuHause> somehow a 4-4-0 engine always screams wildwest-style toy engine to me...
00:03:47  <Wolf01> bed... I... must... resist!
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00:06:25  <Supercheese> 4-4-0 American :)
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00:06:40  <Eddi|zuHause> in germany, early engines were 1B (2-4-0) or 1A1 (2-2-2), but the development got rather towards 1'C (2-6-0) rather than 2'B (4-4-0)
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00:08:03  <Eddi|zuHause> there were a few experimental 2'B1' (4-4-2) engines, but it rather quickly resulted in 2'C1' (4-6-2)
00:09:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i imagine the americans rather had problems with axle load early on, hence using 2 axle bogies instead of single leading axles
00:10:13  <Supercheese> Can you ignore entire threads? Have them never trigger "new posts"?
00:10:24  <Eddi|zuHause> no, sadly not
00:10:37  <Supercheese> Darn, I'd love to /ignore the Time Length nonsense thread
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00:27:46  <Wolf01> gah, I can't resist... bed calls
00:27:52  <Wolf01> 'night all
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00:41:34  <Supercheese> "b) hiding "AI Only" vehicles from a human player (for example, street traffic cars)."
00:41:36  <Supercheese> +1
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00:46:05  <Eddi|zuHause> whoever has to point out they know what they're doing probably doesn't know what they're doing :p
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01:12:06  <Supercheese>
01:12:08  <Supercheese> what
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08:05:57  <Supercheese> Blaaaaarg, transfer orders screw everything up
08:06:13  <Supercheese> Transfer and take cargo, whoops, they take back the cargo they just unloaded
08:06:21  <Supercheese> can't leave some coaches empty
08:08:46  <Supercheese> unless I use some ridiculous combination of autorefit orders
08:09:02  <Supercheese> sigh
08:12:07  <Supercheese> Blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarg some more, can't choose 2 fixed cargoes to autorefit consists to
08:12:21  <Supercheese> Autorefit to Coal and Engineering Supplies
08:12:25  <Supercheese> Nope, can't do that
08:17:43  <Supercheese> HAH, I did it anyway
08:19:54  <Supercheese> "Pick up livestock and grain from this farm, transfer them both at another station, autorefit at that station to farm supplies BUT don't take any livestock or grain back."
08:20:09  <Supercheese> takes 5 orders
08:20:30  <Supercheese> Go to transfer (transfer and leave empty).
08:20:56  <Supercheese> Go to transfer (autorefit to Coal)  [there is no coal at this station, this prevents the grain wagons from loading grain again]
08:21:40  <Supercheese> Go to transfer (Transfer and take cargo with autorefit to farm supplies) [this unloads the livestock that were picked back up from the previous order and ensures the train now leaves with only farm supplies]
08:21:50  <Supercheese> Go to farm (autorefit to grain)
08:21:56  <Supercheese> Go to farm (autorefit to livestock)
08:22:38  <Supercheese> I should just use separate trains for livestock and grain, all this wizardry wouldn't be required :S
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08:25:08  <Supercheese> also this method only works if the grain wagons are refittable to something else
08:25:15  <Supercheese> and the livestock wagons too
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08:42:24  <Supercheese> Whoops, can't autorefit from coal to grain
08:42:32  <Supercheese> and no error message to say that
08:43:12  <Flygon> Supercheese: You are a very brave man
08:43:42  <Supercheese> It should work, and damnit if I'm going to surrender
08:44:13  <Supercheese> well, actually I am going to surrender and build separate livestock and grain trains
08:44:17  <Supercheese> >__>
08:44:34  <Flygon> Y'know what'd be nice
08:44:42  <Supercheese> a great many things?
08:44:48  <Flygon> Orders that're programmable to handle only loading and unloading SOME wagons
08:45:32  <Flygon> This'd be great for having BR125 sets in UKRS2 not load mail >____>
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08:46:05  <Supercheese> Can't refit to non-mail, eh?
08:46:18  <Flygon> Nope
08:48:29  <Supercheese> Yeah, transfer orders bollocks everything up
08:48:43  * Supercheese will never transfer stuff again
08:48:53  <peter1138> yacd!
08:48:53  <Supercheese> (not really, but meh :P )
08:49:02  <Supercheese> CargoDist is horribly worse
08:49:18  <Supercheese> I've never played with CargoDest though
08:49:26  <Supercheese> they should be different
08:49:29  <LSky`> random question, i have a patch file combining daylength/infrasharing/cargodist thats compiled against r26442/r24663. in the advanced settings though, the fee options for infrasharing show as (undefined string)
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08:49:53  <LSky`> i think theres something off with the diff file still
08:49:57  <LSky`> but im not sure what
08:50:04  <Supercheese> Strings, obv
08:50:15  <LSky`> so it would appear
08:50:57  <LSky`> just not sure where to look or what to do about it
08:51:06  <Supercheese> Which string is missing?
08:51:13  <Supercheese> The bottom-description or the main one?
08:51:32  <LSky`> the values you can set in the advanced settings, for the actual costs
08:51:46  <peter1138> eh, doesn't new initialise memory?
08:51:49  <LSky`> "daily track toll for trains: (unfdefined string) per 1000 tonnes
08:51:55  <Supercheese> Hmm
08:52:05  <LSky`> and the other 3 as well
08:52:18  <Supercheese> A recent commit changes stuff with string params
08:52:21  <Supercheese> changed*
08:53:17  <LSky`> the client does actually run by the way, though silly enouhg, i cant actually find the in game menu for IS -_-
08:53:45  <Supercheese> Hmm, 246XX was a while ago
08:53:53  <Supercheese> lots of commits since then
08:54:12  <LSky`> true, but the latest IS was even longer ago, i believe
08:54:52  <LSky`> at least, the last 'official' patch was in 2010
08:55:55  <Supercheese> I'm a singleplayer-only guy, I don't have too much use for IS :P
08:56:14  <LSky`> heh
08:56:26  <LSky`> people have been asking for IS on my server for a while now
08:56:37  <Supercheese> It does sound very nice if you're doing multiplayer
08:56:40  <LSky`> but its not particularly easy to get going
08:56:41  <Supercheese> well, a bunch of patches sound nice :D
08:56:52  <LSky`> yeah
08:56:53  <Supercheese> of course they have bugs, etc.
08:57:47  <LSky`> especially since theyve not been recently updated
08:58:20  <Supercheese> Well, I should sleep
08:58:30  <Supercheese> I need to be awake in 7.5 hours
08:58:36  <LSky`> nn
08:58:49  <Supercheese> scratch that, 7 hours
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09:04:34  <andythenorth> Pikka: new models have big stats changes or incremental improvements?
09:08:50  <Pikka> of ship?
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09:13:55  <andythenorth> Pikka: of any vehicle type
09:14:16  <Pikka> mmh
09:14:19  <Pikka> starting vehicle
09:14:27  <Pikka> final vehicle
09:14:52  <Pikka> stat change size = (difference between start and finish) / (number of generations)? :)
09:14:58  <andythenorth> too linear :)
09:15:03  <andythenorth> I think the answer is 'both'
09:15:08  <Pikka> both, then!
09:15:12  <andythenorth> that
09:15:28  <andythenorth> also a 'trash' icon on each vehicle row of the relevant 'all my vehicles' window
09:15:42  <andythenorth> because 10 small ferries can be replaced by 5 large ferries
09:15:48  <andythenorth> or 5 much faster ferries
09:16:06  <andythenorth> and goto depot, delete, is tedious
09:16:09  <andythenorth> especially for trucks
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09:16:38  <andythenorth> it's garbage collection basically
09:16:45  <andythenorth> mark for deletion, send to depot
09:16:49  <andythenorth> easy patch eh?
09:20:27  <Pikka> mb, what would we do without him?
09:25:45  <andythenorth> precisely
09:26:16  <andythenorth> we've had this discussion before many times apparently
09:26:19  <andythenorth> I wasn't there :P
09:26:30  <andythenorth> and it's moot anyway, for reasons that should be obv.
09:26:44  <andythenorth> but I'm interested what he says anyways
09:27:08  <Pikka> yes, if he was looking for universal agreement on the "right way" to do TTD, he's looking in the wrong place
09:27:20  <Pikka> I was just telling people what I was up to and inviting them to comment :)
09:28:16  <Pikka> but no, I was sighing at mb for the other thread, really ;)
09:29:35  <andythenorth> oh he's missed the point there a bit
09:29:36  <andythenorth> nvm
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09:39:58  <Alberth> moin all
09:40:59  <Pikka> moin Alberth
09:42:03  <andythenorth> log tugs probably belong in HEQS anyway :P
09:42:18  <Pikka> tog lugs
09:42:25  <andythenorth> tug log
09:42:32  <Pikka> stop that at once
09:43:03  <andythenorth> small ferry, big ferry
09:43:18  <andythenorth> meh, steam -> diesel is such a boring transition for ships
09:43:27  <andythenorth> compared to ship -> hydrofoil
09:43:45  <Pikka> well, there's no need to make a big deal of it
09:44:13  <Pikka> you just have one ship that looks like a steam ship, then the next one looks like a diesel ship.  no need really to even tell the player what the propulsion system supposedly is :)
09:44:21  <andythenorth> same stats
09:44:22  <andythenorth> boring
09:44:29  <andythenorth> UKRS 2 manages steam -> diesel well
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09:46:28  <Pikka> ships have fewer properties to differentiate
09:46:50  <andythenorth> yup
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09:47:31  <Pikka> although that said, there's not any "difference" between steam and diesel railway locomotives in TTD per se
09:47:42  <Pikka> they still have all the same features and all the same properties :)
09:48:05  <andythenorth> dieseeisals are cheaper to run
09:48:08  <andythenorth> so you can have more :P
09:48:18  <andythenorth> and they have higher TE, so you can also have fewer :P
09:48:34  <Pikka> yeah, but only because they have those values, if you see what I mean :P
09:49:31  <Pikka> one loco has high costs or low TE or whatever, the other has different, but there's no innate connection between being steam or diesel.  just like there isn't with ships.
09:50:05  <andythenorth> basically, for an 1870 start, I need to drop in 'better' ships around 1900 and 1930
09:50:10  <andythenorth> some happen to be diesel
09:50:18  <andythenorth> but that's non-critical
09:50:23  <andythenorth> so how are they 'better'
09:50:24  <Pikka> yup
09:50:24  <andythenorth> ?
09:50:28  <andythenorth> MOAR
09:50:40  <Pikka> why do they need to be 'better'?
09:50:48  <andythenorth> otherwise why bother?
09:50:54  <andythenorth> except the old model is withdrawn
09:51:04  <Pikka> well, indeed
09:51:15  <Pikka> if the new model is just the same as the old one, don't bother with it
09:51:19  <andythenorth> how does a new vehicle advance the gameplay?
09:51:42  <Pikka> make it bigger or faster or cheaper
09:52:10  <Pikka> if your new (diesel) ship isn't bigger or faster or cheaper than your old (steam) ship, either leave it out or change its stats so that it is.
09:52:22  <andythenorth> not wanting to reach for straws, but passenger comfort?
09:52:30  <andythenorth> [cargo aging]
09:53:19  <Pikka> I dunno, I haven't tried to make cargo aging an interesting mechanic
09:53:30  <Pikka> if you think you can do it, have a go :P
09:55:05  <Pikka> night chaps
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10:15:09  <andythenorth> oh he's gone
10:15:46  <Alberth> :(
10:18:51  <andythenorth> nvm
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10:32:47  <andythenorth> ok so I need an acronym for a new ship set
10:32:52  <andythenorth> SQUID
10:32:58  <andythenorth> needs reversing
10:33:12  <andythenorth> SQUIDS?
10:33:27  <andythenorth> Some Quite Useful Interestingly Designed Ships
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10:36:13  <andythenorth> CRAB
10:36:28  <andythenorth> COD
10:36:50  <Alberth> squids sounds nice
10:40:12  <andythenorth> 150 years
10:40:15  <andythenorth> 10 pax ships
10:40:17  <andythenorth> 10 freight ships
10:40:19  <andythenorth> 10 mixed ships
10:40:23  <andythenorth> not as strict as pikka
10:40:27  <andythenorth> but ships != trains :P
10:42:47  <Alberth> I don't know what pikka does :)
10:52:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say make fewer mixed ships
10:53:35  <V453000> andythenorth: SHI*S
10:53:38  <Eddi|zuHause> 1 small car ferry (40 passengers or 10t cargo)
10:53:45  <V453000> is my name for ships :P
10:53:53  <Eddi|zuHause> 3 large car ferries (1950, 1970, 1990)
10:54:26  <Eddi|zuHause> before that only "dedicated" cargo ships
10:55:11  <Eddi|zuHause> also: cargo holds :p
10:55:41  <Eddi|zuHause> (freight ships have large capacity but few "holds", ferries have smaller capacity but many many holds)
10:56:06  <MNIM> SQUID: Ships Quite Useful and Interestingly Designed?
10:56:33  <MNIM> Eddi: none from a later day?
10:57:23  <MNIM> I often play from 1900 to 2100 (or even longer)
10:57:34  <MNIM> and quite likely I am not the only one.
10:57:42  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: so what? you use the same ships over 100 years
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10:58:10  <MNIM> yeah, but that gets boring without new developments.
10:58:31  <Eddi|zuHause> can't have everything ;)
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11:00:23  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: important developments may be [sail->]steam->diesel and crates->containers
11:00:52  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and you need something that makes the hydrofoils less overpowered
11:01:24  <Eddi|zuHause> there is currently no reason at all to prefer a larger slower ship over a smaller faster one
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11:03:40  <MNIM> I can imagine large solar or wind powered ships in the 2050s
11:12:56  <Eddi|zuHause> wind powered ships, we had those in the 1800s already...
11:18:14  <oskari89> Why the Beta 2 haven't been posted to OpenTTD frontpage O_o
11:18:42  <oskari89> It's there on download testing but still..
11:18:50  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently nobody has time
11:21:18  <Alberth> oskari89: write a nice announcement
11:21:33  <Alberth> (although I have no posting powers)
11:28:55  <V453000> beta2 is out? :)
11:31:02  <oskari89> Seems that there's bug in that version
11:31:26  <MNIM> Eddi|zuHause: and we were idiots to dump them
11:32:05  <oskari89> I have a 64x64 game
11:32:21  <oskari89> With dense ai-generated roads
11:33:11  <oskari89> Placed two stations at oil refinery and metal works
11:34:19  <oskari89> But when i am giving orders to vehicle that serves those, there's a error...
11:34:47  <oskari89> "Can't insert new order, vehicle can't go to that station"
11:35:07  <oskari89> But there's nothing which would block that vehicle?
11:35:11  <Alberth> bus station instead of truck station?
11:35:22  <Alberth> default station for articulated trucks?
11:35:24  <oskari89> Nope, it's truc station
11:35:26  <oskari89> Yes
11:35:45  <oskari89> Articulated trucs can't use default stations?
11:35:50  <Alberth> that won't work indeed
11:35:56  <Alberth> they cannot make the turns
11:35:58  <oskari89> Okay, that was new to me :P
11:36:33  <oskari89> "Can't make road vehicle turn around"
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11:44:07  <andythenorth> HAKE
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11:44:13  <andythenorth> Haul Anchor, Keep East
11:44:22  <andythenorth> COD
11:44:27  <andythenorth> Cruising Over Deeps
11:45:04  <andythenorth> SALT
11:45:10  <andythenorth> Ships A List Tidied
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11:48:33  <Alberth> JABS   just a bunch of ships
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11:53:45  <Eddi|zuHause> what was this word again that sounds like "FISH", but gets spelled completely different?
11:54:55  <andythenorth> PHISH
11:55:06  <Eddi|zuHause> no
11:55:59  <Eddi|zuHause> GHOTI, that i meant
11:56:29  <andythenorth> ?
11:56:36  <Eddi|zuHause>
11:56:53  <andythenorth> uh huh
11:56:57  <andythenorth> interesting
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12:13:48  <Wolf01> hi o/
12:15:03  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
13:06:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it might have been buried in the night, but this is too evil, i have to say it again: :p
13:11:00  <peter1138> what?
13:11:27  <peter1138> i appear to have hit german youtube
13:13:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you should get the gist of it without understanding that much german
13:15:20  <oskari89> Is there currently random founding of towns in OpenTTD?
13:15:30  <oskari89> So town could be randomly founded somewhere?
13:15:37  <Eddi|zuHause> basically, he's working up the crowd at a carneval show, making it reply to common shoutouts
13:16:10  <Eddi|zuHause> "zicke zacke zicke zacke" - "heu heu heu" and "hip hip" - "hurra"
13:16:23  <Eddi|zuHause> and then he says "Sieg!"
13:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and when the obvious reply comes, he tries to sound embarrassed
13:16:57  <Eddi|zuHause> "this can't be true that there are so many 'old comrads' here"
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13:51:47  <andythenorth> PIRATES
13:52:38  <Eddi|zuHause> no, they won't make it this election
13:52:49  <andythenorth> Provides Individually Reasonable Assets To Enable Shipping
13:53:49  <Alberth> obviously that name is reserved for pirate trading ;)
13:55:47  <andythenorth> Pirates Isn't Recursive At The End So
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13:56:36  <Alberth> :)
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14:11:30  <MNIM> Eddi|zuHause: funny. I was zapping recently and encountered a show called 'sieg heil und alaaf' on one of the german channels.
14:11:48  <MNIM> I was pretty much like 'wait, what?'
14:12:13  <MNIM> have germans been getting more relaxed about those themes these years?
14:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: i somehow doubt that
14:12:41  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: and this clip above is from 1973
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14:16:10  <MNIM> I noticed, but I always thought you guys were a bit icky whenever the n-word gets mentioned
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14:17:30  <Rubidium> not only that
14:17:57  <andythenorth> herp
14:18:07  <andythenorth> reverse acronym SEADOGS?
14:18:51  <Alberth> YASS  yet another ship set
14:19:05  <Rubidium> andy's rare rigs
14:19:27  <MNIM> arr!
14:19:58  <andythenorth> Land Ho!
14:20:45  <MNIM> SEAS: Ships? Eek, Another Set!
14:21:01  <andythenorth> need something that goes with CHIPS
14:21:08  <andythenorth> maybe
14:21:10  <andythenorth> dunno why
14:21:17  <andythenorth> CHICKEN!
14:21:21  <andythenorth> SCAMPI
14:21:41  <MNIM> mustard?
14:21:55  <andythenorth> SAUCE
14:22:04  <andythenorth> FISHCAKE
14:22:14  <andythenorth> SMALLFISH
14:23:20  <andythenorth> obviously the name is far more important than what goes in the set :P
14:23:47  <MNIM> More Useless Ships To Anchor 'Round Docks
14:24:07  <MNIM> andy: naturally
14:24:20  <Eddi|zuHause> SSWPA... Ship Set Without Pronouncable Acronym
14:24:43  * MNIM baps Eddi on the head
14:24:45  <MNIM> hush
14:25:04  <MNIM> Acronyms be srz bznz
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14:25:27  <andythenorth> CATS
14:25:43  <andythenorth> Cast Away To Sea
14:25:54  <MNIM> Craptastic Andythenorth Transport Ships?
14:25:59  * MNIM ducks
14:26:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i doubt that cats really go well with chips
14:26:24  <andythenorth> I like SQUID
14:26:44  <andythenorth> I guess that might work
14:26:49  <andythenorth> or does it suck?
14:26:56  <MNIM> squid? what was that again
14:27:07  <andythenorth> Ships Quite Unique Individual Designs
14:27:20  <andythenorth> because there will be limited incremental improvements
14:27:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Now Everybody Wants Ships
14:27:29  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: pretty good :)
14:27:53  <andythenorth> SHARK
14:27:54  <andythenorth> ?
14:27:58  <Eddi|zuHause> call it NEWShips, just to annoy MB :)
14:28:07  <andythenorth> annoying MB is an over-rated sport :)
14:28:12  <MNIM> oh right, I proposed SQUID: Ships Quite Useful and Interestingly Designed myself
14:29:01  <andythenorth> Ships Have Anchors Ropes Knots
14:29:38  <andythenorth> SHARK will do
14:29:43  <andythenorth> de-acronym later
14:29:56  <andythenorth> now to actually figure out what it is :P
14:30:12  <andythenorth> 1. move the log tug to HEQS
14:30:22  <andythenorth> 2. only put necessary ships in SHARK
14:30:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i like the log tug
14:30:55  <Eddi|zuHause> HEQS should stick to road vehicles
14:31:22  <andythenorth> :P
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14:40:28  <Eddi|zuHause> why are you always so eager to remove the one thing that is interesting/not like everything else out there?
14:41:08  <andythenorth> :)
14:43:35  <andythenorth> everything must be uniform!
14:43:53  <andythenorth> also, in a set of 25 ships, how do I justify one that only carries wood?
14:44:03  <andythenorth> or is that exactly precisely upside-down thinking?
14:44:21  <Eddi|zuHause> how do you justify the other 24 ships?
14:44:37  <Eddi|zuHause> a log tug would be the cheapest way to move logs
14:45:39  <andythenorth> this is an interesting way of thinking about it
14:45:46  <andythenorth> start with the log tug
14:45:50  <andythenorth> what else deserves to be in
14:46:08  <andythenorth> my concern with any set is avoiding 'bland'
14:46:15  <andythenorth> 'big' is one way to avoid 'bland'
14:46:34  <andythenorth> but that's too easy
14:48:08  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you think cargo aging is worth bothering with?
14:48:29  <Eddi|zuHause> for ships? yes, slower cargo aging makes it on-par with other transport types
14:48:41  <andythenorth> I am thinking between ships as well
14:48:48  <andythenorth> so old, open-deck passenger ships
14:48:57  <andythenorth> age much faster than ferries with cabins and bars and slot machines
14:49:00  <Eddi|zuHause> low cargo aging for non-perishable goods (coal, ore, etc...)
14:49:57  <andythenorth> ship technology progresses quite slowly I think
14:50:16  <andythenorth> over 150 years, probably not many models needed for each cargo / route niche
14:51:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, 1700: sail ships, 1800: steam ships, 1900: small diesel ships, 1950: large container ships
14:51:16  <Flygon> Only 1700?
14:51:22  <Flygon> What about 1500?
14:51:34  <andythenorth> yeah, not interested
14:51:36  <Flygon> Also, Tiremes
14:51:46  <andythenorth> my games start 1870, never earlier
14:51:59  <andythenorth> making ships for Other People is a nice idea, but my time is short ;)
14:52:20  <Eddi|zuHause> make 3 or 4 ships per each of these eras
14:52:36  <andythenorth> something like this yes
14:52:44  <andythenorth> with rather large capacity difference
14:53:00  <andythenorth> so PAX / mail: 50 pax / 250 pax / 1000 pax
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14:53:24  <Eddi|zuHause> something like that, yes
14:54:12  <andythenorth>  FISH 2 has big gaps in pax ships (not drawn), but works fine in gameplay
14:54:23  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Don't test your sets with "vehicles never expire" switched on, I don't want to end up with The One Ship Set :p
14:54:33  <andythenorth> michi_cc: point :)
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14:55:56  <andythenorth> this Island Trader thing should go
14:56:02  <andythenorth> it's like Universal Ultimate Ship
14:56:13  <andythenorth> fast, right size for many routes, refits anything
14:56:34  <Dakki> hello
14:56:46  <Alberth> hi
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14:57:39  <andythenorth> also michi_cc can I moan about autorefit? :)
14:57:50  <andythenorth> or is the answer 'ignore it' o_O
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14:58:07  <Alberth> don't support it :)
14:58:10  <michi_cc> To your moaning? Yes ;)
14:58:47  <Dakki> what happened to the 'stolen trees' newgrf?
14:59:05  <Eddi|zuHause> it's still around, somewhere
14:59:09  <Alberth> that was by SAC wasn't it?
14:59:30  <Eddi|zuHause> but search for the updated "treesw.grf" with snowy versions as well
15:00:35  <andythenorth> ho ho
15:00:40  <andythenorth> small, medium, very large
15:00:41  <andythenorth> no large
15:00:57  <andythenorth> if you want large ships, use a few medium ones
15:01:03  <michi_cc> Just pick three or four cargo groups (all liquid cargoes, all bulk cargoes, all piece goods etc) and allow unlimited autorefit in each group and none at all between groups. Prevents stuck cargo types, and ignore anybody who wants to autorefit between groups.
15:01:21  <andythenorth> michi_cc: that's what I've done for FISH 2
15:01:29  <andythenorth> only differently
15:01:36  <andythenorth> tankers refit any liquid
15:01:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, and the "very large" category grows with each era, the "small" and "medium" ships stay the same size
15:01:43  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: precisely that
15:02:05  <andythenorth> there is always a niche for small
15:02:13  <andythenorth> but otherwise the game tends to 'bigger'
15:02:29  <andythenorth> industry production++ and town population++
15:03:03  <Eddi|zuHause> "speedboat": 1t, high speed :)
15:03:20  <andythenorth> :P
15:04:23  <Eddi|zuHause> and have them make really annoying sounds so people won't use 1000 of them to serve a route :p
15:05:11  <Eddi|zuHause> (i think the game just drops sounds if there are too many simultaneously)
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15:06:43  <andythenorth> lo frosch123
15:08:19  <frosch123> moin :)
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15:08:34  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: should I kill the freight barges? :P
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15:08:49  <andythenorth> they're slow
15:08:52  <Eddi|zuHause> which ones are those?
15:09:18  <andythenorth>
15:09:27  <andythenorth> rhs
15:09:57  <andythenorth> ach, wrong way of thinking about it
15:10:14  <andythenorth> what ships are fun to have?  what ships are different to other ships?
15:10:28  <Eddi|zuHause> barges: fastest ship on canals
15:11:06  <Eddi|zuHause> keep the paddle steamers, make them the only choice in the steam era
15:11:10  <andythenorth> yes
15:11:11  <andythenorth> and yes
15:11:16  <andythenorth> I agree
15:11:23  <andythenorth> but I'm trying to start from clean sheet
15:11:26  <andythenorth> I keep forgetting that :P
15:11:28  <Eddi|zuHause> make the hydrofoils future-ish
15:11:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i think they're heavily overpowered
15:12:09  <andythenorth> what gameplay reason is there to provide inland and sea vessels?
15:12:18  <andythenorth> I can vary speed, but then I need to provide a range of capacities
15:12:37  <andythenorth> because industries and towns don't produce differently depending on inland / near sea
15:12:39  <Eddi|zuHause> keep the barges small/medium only
15:13:03  <andythenorth> big ones look bad in canals anyway
15:14:11  <Eddi|zuHause> inland barges are more a thing of opportunity, you need to have a river flowing in the right direction to make decent use of them
15:14:25  <Eddi|zuHause> or you have really high costs for canals
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15:14:58  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise it's usually easier to just serve the industries by train/truck
15:15:32  <andythenorth> ugh, ships with refittable capacity would shake this up :P
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15:15:42  <Eddi|zuHause> don't
15:15:55  <andythenorth> I mean properly, specified as 'holds'
15:16:01  <andythenorth> multiple thereof
15:16:12  <Eddi|zuHause> don't
15:16:33  <andythenorth> well I'm unlikely to succeed at patching ottd for it :P
15:16:35  <andythenorth> so moot point
15:18:21  <Eddi|zuHause> even if there were "holds", they would have fixed sizes and just be handled by refit/autorefit to different cargos
15:18:32  <Eddi|zuHause> nothing the newgrf should worry about
15:18:56  <andythenorth> newgrf would specify the number of holds and size?
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15:19:22  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:19:51  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly in a form similar to the articulated callback
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15:35:40  * andythenorth experiments
15:37:42  * Alberth throws in a stick of dynamite for extra fun
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15:40:17  <andythenorth> I just can't do this thing pikka is doing for trains
15:40:44  <Alberth> why would you? you're a different person afaik
15:41:01  <Eddi|zuHause> do you really know? :p
15:41:18  <Eddi|zuHause> have you ever met both in the same room at the same time?
15:41:21  <andythenorth> herp
15:41:30  <Alberth> all the evidence found so far points in that direction :p
15:41:59  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: yes, I have seen them talk to each other in #openttd :)
15:42:31  <andythenorth> could be fake
15:42:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i have seen TB and DorpsGek talk to each other. that doesn't prove anything :p
15:42:35  <andythenorth> anyway trains can be composed into consists
15:42:41  <andythenorth> so capacity varies trivially
15:42:43  <andythenorth> ships can't
15:43:06  <andythenorth> and just saying 'build 10 of size xyz' is unsatisfactory
15:43:37  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: you claim that TB and DorpsGek are the same entity?  you're crazy :)
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15:49:20  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, but having 10 different refits per cargo type is un-handleable
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15:49:31  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ?
15:49:40  <andythenorth> wrt...?
15:49:52  <Eddi|zuHause> wrt refitable ship sizes
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15:50:53  <andythenorth> ah
15:50:55  <andythenorth> yes
15:51:00  <andythenorth> I kind of gave up on that argument
15:51:11  <andythenorth> doesn't go anywhere useful ;)
15:51:39  <andythenorth> in the absence of old style FIRS supplies, is there *any* point to teeny ships (<20t / 30 pax)
15:51:41  <andythenorth> ?
15:51:44  * andythenorth thinks not
15:53:54  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:54:03  <Eddi|zuHause> small village on a remote-ish island
15:54:13  <Eddi|zuHause> which you'd normaly cover by a bus service
15:54:30  <andythenorth> why not just run a bigger boat, with timetable instead of full load?
15:54:34  <andythenorth> 60 pax or so?
15:55:07  <Eddi|zuHause> as i mentioned earlier: "small ferry" - 40pax or 10t cargo
15:55:42  <andythenorth> currently there is one at 30 pax / 12t
15:55:50  <andythenorth> which gets used a bit
15:56:18  <Eddi|zuHause> you certainly don't need both 30pax and 60pax ships
15:56:29  <andythenorth> no
15:56:32  <Eddi|zuHause> 30-300-3000
15:56:41  <andythenorth> something like that
15:57:56  <andythenorth> ship speeds
15:58:00  <andythenorth> realistic, or cheated?
15:58:08  <andythenorth> [they're already cheated somewhat in FISH]
15:59:44  <Eddi|zuHause> not too cheated, balance the decay rate instead
16:00:10  <Eddi|zuHause> so a 40km/h ship earns the same as a 120km/h train
16:15:13  <andythenorth> hmm
16:15:14  <andythenorth> idea
16:15:31  <andythenorth> only one model for a class of ship
16:15:33  <andythenorth> over 150 years
16:15:50  <andythenorth> no progression of type 1 -> type 2 filling same niche
16:16:23  <Alberth> makes "class" somewhat non-useful :)   (or "model" of course)
16:18:51  <andythenorth> you just build 'small coaster' or whatever
16:19:00  <andythenorth> you don't worry about picking type 1 or type 2
16:19:50  <andythenorth> no date changes either
16:20:45  <V453000> fish aint enough ? :D
16:21:59  <andythenorth> I'm canning FISH 2
16:22:53  <andythenorth> starting a new ships project
16:23:09  <V453000> why? :d
16:24:24  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Progression is vital if you play with inflation enabled. The TTD inflation mechanics let the costs increase faster than the revenue, which means vehicles must get more efficient as time goes by.
16:25:01  <andythenorth> that's cos inflation is broken ;)
16:27:18  <michi_cc> Too many vehicles to buy is solved in a big part by playing with inflation, expiring vehicles and breakdowns (reliability is randomized by the game, which means there will always be a random subset of vehicles that are not usable for there low reliability).
16:27:39  <V453000> not like too many vehicles to buy is a problem ;)
16:27:41  <michi_cc> s/there/their/
16:28:09  <V453000> if there are too many equal vehicles to choose from, it is fault of the train set
16:29:12  <andythenorth> I think too many vehicles is boring
16:29:25  <andythenorth> I'm deleting most of them from FISH
16:29:38  <andythenorth> and probably won't bother with progression over time much
16:29:47  <andythenorth> canal boats didn't change much in 150 years
16:30:18  <andythenorth> I don't think I can get a ship set down to 10 vehicles though
16:30:24  <andythenorth> MB succeeded at that
16:34:16  <V453000> well if ship sprites change upon refit, you need like just a few for cargo
16:34:48  <V453000> "large universal cargo ship", medium, and what not
16:36:33  <andythenorth> they don't change on refit
16:36:40  <andythenorth> but otherwise I agree
16:36:44  <V453000> dont /cant?
16:36:49  <andythenorth> looks dumb ;)
16:36:55  <andythenorth> really really dumb
16:36:56  <Eddi|zuHause> "shouldn't"
16:37:00  <andythenorth> I could drop autorefit
16:37:08  <Eddi|zuHause> don't
16:37:16  <andythenorth> I'll keep it :P
16:37:35  <andythenorth> means I have to have tankers
16:37:36  <andythenorth> hmm
16:37:38  <andythenorth> could not have tankers
16:37:40  <V453000> uhm that doesnt change sprites?
16:37:47  <andythenorth> hmm
16:37:54  <andythenorth> the cargo ships carry liquids in barrels anyway
16:38:06  <andythenorth> but tankers have always been in the game :P
16:38:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: have huge tankers only in the "container ship" era (1950+)
16:38:52  <andythenorth> yes
16:38:54  <Eddi|zuHause> before that, handle liquids in barrels
16:39:04  <andythenorth> I am +1 to that, except there's a really nice sprite for a 'large' tanker :)
16:39:11  <andythenorth> set design influenced by available sprites :P
16:39:13  <andythenorth> bad
16:39:32  <V453000> good
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16:44:42  <andythenorth> hmm
16:44:48  <andythenorth> maybe I should delete the FIRS economy
16:44:53  <andythenorth> and remove some industries from FIRS
16:45:05  <andythenorth> it would compile faster, amongst other things
16:45:12  <andythenorth> the smaller Basic economies are better
16:45:12  <Eddi|zuHause> you certainly have the focus of... oh a butterly
16:45:27  <andythenorth> it all runs in the same direction :P
16:46:19  <andythenorth> I noticed FISH compile got faster due to being smaller
16:46:26  <andythenorth> faster FIRS compile would be welcome
16:54:54  <andythenorth> down to 5 tankers, 8 cargo ships
16:55:12  <andythenorth> 8 pax ships
16:55:16  <andythenorth> a few randoms
16:55:24  <andythenorth> that's about 50% removed
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17:26:55  <andythenorth> hmm
17:27:03  <andythenorth> what happened to the wider buy menu for ships?
17:27:25  <andythenorth> reverted?
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17:49:41  <frosch123> not that i know of
17:49:53  <frosch123> maybe you downgraded :p
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17:53:59  <andythenorth> maybe I broke FISH :P
17:54:10  <andythenorth> nml says the buy menu sprites are 138px wide
17:54:15  <andythenorth> but they're not rendered that wide
17:54:28  <andythenorth> maybe I screwed up offsets
17:54:37  <andythenorth> EAndythenorth
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18:13:30  <andythenorth> ho ho
18:13:37  <andythenorth> maybe I should remove *all* the sea ships
18:13:47  <andythenorth> just do inland vessels
18:13:56  <andythenorth> that's got to be better?
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18:21:13  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24983 /trunk/src (5 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-09 17:31:07 UTC)
18:21:14  <DorpsGek> -Change: Apply the same name sorting rules to content and NewGRF list as for the server list.
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18:34:38  <andythenorth> ok, so I can't do the pikka 10 vehicle thing
18:34:51  <andythenorth> but I can do 40 ships for 150 years, without being stupid about it
18:34:59  <andythenorth> that's quite enough imho
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19:15:50  <LordAro> \o all
19:16:53  <Alberth> evenink
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19:26:01  *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
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19:35:30  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24984 /trunk/src/lang (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-09 18:45:20 UTC)
19:35:31  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:35:32  <DorpsGek> esperanto - 1 changes by LaPingvino
19:35:33  <DorpsGek> greek - 5 changes by Evropi
19:35:34  <DorpsGek> thai - 38 changes by khao9999
19:35:35  <DorpsGek> ukrainian - 23 changes by Strategy
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19:53:32  <Alberth> andythenorth:  <-- possible FIRS problem
19:53:43  <andythenorth> have loaded the save
19:53:55  <Supercheese> I also posted the updated english.lngs
19:54:08  <Supercheese> you might have seen those already
19:54:13  <Alberth> were they out of date?
19:54:37  <Supercheese> Capitalization was made "proper", and the US english had zillions of needless duplicate strings
19:54:49  <Supercheese> I didn't realize you could only include the strings that were different
19:55:12  <Alberth> oh :)
19:55:49  <Alberth> so more fallback to the base language now :)
19:55:54  <Supercheese> yeh
19:56:04  <Supercheese> Au English has, like, only 2 entries :P
19:56:27  <Supercheese>
19:57:39  <Supercheese> Man, Voyager One is really good at pixel-pushing, he just churns out more trains for the Dutch set all the time
19:57:58  <Supercheese> dozens and dozens
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20:05:10  <Alberth> andythenorth: I just committed the english changes of Supercheese, the US english changes removes all duplicates, is that wanted in a language file?
20:05:36  <Alberth> ie other languages tend to copy unchanged strings
20:05:38  <Supercheese> AU English as linked doesn't duplicate either
20:05:47  <Supercheese> but I dunno if that was intentional
20:05:52  <Supercheese> or just a lazy translator :P
20:06:11  <Alberth> the point is that other languages do copy those strings
20:06:24  <Supercheese> well, other languages have to change every string
20:06:28  <Supercheese> Englishes often don't
20:07:14  <Eddi|zuHause> what's missing is that other languages could define an explicit base lenguage
20:07:34  <Supercheese> Yeah
20:07:49  <Eddi|zuHause> like "german (switzerland)" could define german as base language, and only change the numbering etc.
20:07:57  <Supercheese> A Spanish-variant could define Spanish base and then not include duplicate strings
20:08:03  <Supercheese> Same of German-variants and so on
20:08:04  <Alberth> there is more missing in the current file format :)
20:08:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. "'" as thousand separator instead of "."
20:08:32  <Supercheese> Thousands not separated by commas break my brain @_@
20:08:52  <Supercheese> 3.796,51 is ridiculous
20:09:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the point :p
20:09:31  <andythenorth> Alberth: removing unchanged strings is desirable, but not usually practical :P
20:09:42  <andythenorth> it reduces maintenance, but takes work to maintain :P
20:10:03  <Alberth> Supercheese: your call :)
20:10:42  <Supercheese> Well I am a sucker for consistency, so both AU and US english should either include all duplicate strings, or none of them
20:11:07  <Supercheese> currently I'm leaning towards no duplicates
20:11:36  <Alberth> ok, no duplicates it is :)
20:12:15  <Supercheese> I don't speak Aussie, so I can't maintain the AU English file :P
20:13:02  <andythenorth> hmm
20:13:51  <andythenorth> the brewery accepts fruit, the tiles accept fruit, the station thinks fruit is accepted, but the cargo isn't moved to the industry :P
20:15:46  <Supercheese> Produce block issues?
20:16:02  <Supercheese> Produce won't produce with produce :D
20:16:35  <andythenorth> could be
20:17:50  <andythenorth> seems to be widespread for secondary industry
20:24:30  <andythenorth> herp
20:24:31  <andythenorth> so
20:24:46  <andythenorth> I have a station that's claiming to accept scrap metal
20:24:47  <andythenorth> but doesn't
20:28:25  <Eddi|zuHause> you sure you didn't set any weird transfer orders?
20:28:54  <andythenorth> I was using one station which overlapped source and destination
20:28:59  <andythenorth> with unload and take cargo
20:29:10  <andythenorth> that has issues
20:29:12  <Eddi|zuHause> ah yes, that is an explanation :)
20:29:18  <Eddi|zuHause> don't do that :)
20:29:26  <andythenorth> however I can't replicate the situation hyronymous has in his save
20:29:39  <andythenorth> it's broken in his save, but I can't figure out why :P
20:29:39  <Eddi|zuHause> what save?
20:29:46  <andythenorth>
20:29:56  <andythenorth> the save involves insanely slow trains
20:30:07  <andythenorth> so I tested to see if I could replicate with any version of recent FIRS
20:30:18  <andythenorth> the only way I can do so is with the weird single station setup
20:30:33  <Eddi|zuHause> the industry closest to the station sign will get all cargo
20:31:15  <andythenorth> allegedly that was tested already
20:31:21  <andythenorth> I didn't due to very slow trains :P
20:31:45  <Eddi|zuHause> just destroy the industry in question (magic bulldozer) and see if that solves it
20:32:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't look at the actual savegame at the moment
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20:41:36  <andythenorth> yeah, it was the other industry taking the cargo
20:41:49  <andythenorth> never trust someone else's report :P
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20:48:45  <Alberth> which other industry?
20:49:33  <andythenorth> food market
20:50:27  <Alberth> hmm, didn't see that one
20:50:43  <Alberth> your industry buildings blend in very well :)
20:51:23  <andythenorth> :P
20:53:18  <frosch123> colour code them, just make them pink and blue
20:53:29  <frosch123> no shading, just unicolor :p
20:55:15  <andythenorth> :)
20:55:34  <andythenorth> frosch123: you didn't happen to implement vehicle views whilst I wasn't looking?
20:55:37  <andythenorth> o_O
20:55:49  <frosch123> i did not even wrote a spec :p
20:56:25  <peter1138> rgb colour maps!
21:10:46  <andythenorth> what is the point of these giant tankers in FISH 2?
21:12:08  <andythenorth> no sensible industry set produces this much oil
21:12:26  <andythenorth> (1,800,000 litres capacity)
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21:13:19  <andythenorth> then they look stupid going up the river to the refinery
21:14:09  <frosch123> maybe they are meant for transfers
21:14:28  <andythenorth> dunno
21:14:34  <frosch123> aren't ships usually used when trains cannot handle the amount anymore
21:14:39  <andythenorth> I've never used them in my games
21:14:42  <andythenorth> they're too big
21:14:47  <frosch123> without flatting all mountains and placing 32 tracks in parallel?
21:15:04  <frosch123> but yes, usually i build many ships rather than big ships
21:15:15  <andythenorth> better to deliver small amounts frequently
21:15:35  <frosch123> i also rarely build the long trams
21:15:41  <frosch123> usually medium only
21:15:47  <frosch123> sometimes short
21:16:15  <andythenorth> or I adjust the capacity down significantly
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21:27:50  <andythenorth> ho ho
21:27:56  <andythenorth> I'm accidentally making NewShips
21:28:03  <andythenorth> Michael got here a long time ago :)
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21:28:55  <andythenorth> lo Pikka
21:29:00  <Pikka> lo andy
21:29:00  <andythenorth> curse you
21:29:09  <Pikka> did I?
21:29:15  <andythenorth> I am deleting ships left and right
21:29:17  <andythenorth> and center
21:29:20  <andythenorth> Dan will hate me :(
21:29:23  <Pikka> oops :)
21:29:34  <frosch123> luckily fish 1 is still available :)
21:29:38  <Pikka> and fish 2
21:30:12  <andythenorth> FISH 2 is not getting any more work
21:30:17  <andythenorth> SQUID has killed it
21:31:19  <frosch123> is squid an oversized cargo?
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21:32:07  <frosch123> do 1 800 000 litres suit a squid?
21:32:16  <andythenorth> probly :P
21:33:05  * Pikka berb
21:33:38  <peter1138> keberb
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21:53:23  <Pikka> lo berb
21:53:32  <Pikka> you have pie?
21:56:39  <andythenorth> mmm pie
21:57:08  <Pikka> pie pie pie pie pie pie pie
21:57:19  <Pikka> or at least coffee
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22:16:10  <andythenorth> herp
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22:33:06  <Pikka> not sure which side you're on, Alberth :)
22:33:24  <Alberth> :)
22:33:39  <Pikka> are you saying GS's shouldn't try to manage the economy, or are you saying that industry GRFs shouldn't exist?
22:34:14  <Pikka> "complex" industry GRFs shouldn't exist
22:34:16  <Pikka> ?
22:40:16  <Pikka> any road up
22:40:21  * Pikka back in an hour or two
22:43:38  <Alberth> I am saying that even the game engine cannot manage current industry newgrfs (due to not having enough influence)
22:43:52  <Alberth> as such GS cannot do it either
22:44:13  * Alberth is asleep in an hour of two :)
22:44:39  <frosch123> at least you hope to :)
22:46:05  <Alberth> from past experience, I am confident that will work :)
22:46:14  <Alberth> good night :)
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22:47:32  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i said, right? NewGRFs already have too much influence, you can't cut back on it to try to balance it
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23:03:07  <andythenorth> for any given feature (trains / RVs / industry etc), there are things that could be delegated, if we were prepared to do the arguing
23:03:16  <andythenorth> so that newgrf is less influential
23:03:53  <Supercheese> Well, I am most proficient at coding newgrfs, so more power to them, say I
23:03:55  <Supercheese> :P
23:05:38  <frosch123> sometimes i wonder what happens when i lock in a newgrf author with an ai author like krinn into a room
23:06:14  <frosch123> would only one of them survive? or would they team up and kill me instead :p
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23:22:31  <LordAro> krinn wouldn't
23:22:41  <LordAro> everyone else would team up :)
23:23:03  <LordAro> with the possible exception of the Rondje authors :L
23:29:44  <andythenorth> new ship set has 29 ships, with 1 slot free for 'inspiration'
23:29:54  <andythenorth> it's a bit less logical than FISH :P
23:31:01  <Supercheese> Which were axed/which kept?
23:31:40  <Supercheese> Also: are they permanently gone or hidden behind a new parameter [Normal\Extended]?
23:31:43  <andythenorth> gone
23:31:46  <andythenorth> it's a new set
23:31:48  <andythenorth> SQUID
23:31:52  <andythenorth> FISH is dead
23:32:08  <Supercheese> And no one can take it over because of your 10 layers of abstraction O_o
23:32:09  <frosch123> use the last slot for a squid then
23:32:40  <andythenorth> Supercheese: I think you misunderstand abstraction :)
23:32:43  <Supercheese> Although I could just pinch the graphics
23:33:08  <andythenorth> if you limit your changes to those the framework allows, you can keep the set running just by editing the .cfg file
23:33:11  <andythenorth> which is plain text
23:33:41  <andythenorth> rename it LOSTFISH
23:34:05  <Supercheese> Well, you've a .cfg file building Python building NML building NFO building a .grf, no?
23:34:15  <Supercheese> or well, NML can go straight to grf I guess
23:34:20  <andythenorth> python builds nml from the .cfg file
23:34:21  <Supercheese> kind of
23:34:42  <andythenorth> nml -> grf
23:34:57  <andythenorth> hmm, I've done an evil
23:35:01  <Supercheese> so one more layer over NML then
23:35:13  <Supercheese> NML really is just higher-level NFO though
23:35:29  <Supercheese> with some automatic code generation wizardry
23:35:43  <Supercheese> i.e. Spritelayout 'arguments'
23:39:17  <frosch123> night
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