Log for #openttd on 10th February 2013:
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00:02:46  <andythenorth> herp
00:02:53  <andythenorth> any need for a big ship pre 1900?
00:02:58  <andythenorth> big means > 800t
00:03:03  <andythenorth> I can't find a use for them
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00:03:31  <Supercheese> I used one before...
00:03:34  <Supercheese> and then he leaves
00:04:47  *** andythenorth [~Andy@2002:4d66:7022:0:9ed:ba44:f41f:9f15] has joined #openttd
00:04:51  <andythenorth> oops :P
00:04:53  <andythenorth> wrong quit
00:05:01  <Supercheese> Yes indeed
00:05:10  <Supercheese> I was saying I used one in the 1890s
00:05:17  <Supercheese> But not really before
00:05:42  <Supercheese> I'm using a single 960t ship
00:05:56  <Supercheese> rest are 540t ships and smaller
00:06:28  <Supercheese> 960t is biggest currently available, though if there was one bigger I wouldn't have a use for it yet
00:06:49  <Supercheese> game year is 1902
00:08:21  <Supercheese> Although a station has just exceeded train capacity
00:08:41  <Supercheese> 2,000t of metal waiting and the trains train throughput is at max
00:08:49  <Supercheese> time to switch to a canal
00:10:04  <andythenorth> I think the 960t ship has no place :)
00:10:10  <andythenorth> it's gone in SQUID
00:10:13  <andythenorth> bed time
00:10:15  <andythenorth> bye
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00:10:17  <Supercheese> night
00:12:08  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:28:48  <Pikka> then who was phone
00:43:55  <Supercheese> I really should stop posting at Simuscape
00:44:03  <Supercheese> it does far more harm than good
00:44:16  <Supercheese> posting/suggesting
00:44:25  <Supercheese> It won't make any difference
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01:23:09  <Supercheese> Oh good grief, my farms are now waaaaaaaay overproducing
01:23:23  <Supercheese> Never going to be able to handle these production levels -_-
01:26:43  <peter1138> what happens at simuscape stays at simuscape
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01:49:13  <Supercheese> I really should stop building terminus stations, ro-ro all the way [gently down the stream]
02:06:57  <Flytgon> Use both
02:07:10  <Flytgon> In my North America scenario, I use both extensively
02:07:25  <Flytgon> Terminuses where multiple lines conjoin
02:07:58  <Flytgon> Ro-Ro for where I want trains to stop into a town (and express through tracks in the middle)
02:08:23  <Flytgon> There is also dead-stop terminuses for end of lines... so, for example
02:09:00  <Flytgon> I end up with some lines ending abruptly, then I build on, and I'll have a very fancy station for a tiny town that trains can short-stop at to handle demand on parts of the route that have more passengers
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02:11:35  <Pikka> peter1138, it's gratifying to see that, so far at least, everyone is ignoring that thread :)
02:11:51  <Guest1252> hello
02:12:15  <Pikka> hello Guest1252
02:12:35  <Guest1252> it was aviation 8 grf?
02:12:53  <Pikka> was it?
02:13:00  <Guest1252> av8 grf version?
02:13:40  <Pikka> try asking the question from the beginning
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02:27:39  <Supercheese> We may never know what he really meant...
02:37:07  <Pikka> oh well
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02:57:55  <Supercheese> too bad the covered carriage truck can't refit to food :(
02:58:45  <Supercheese> was hoping to autorefit to livestock at the farm, autorefit to food at the stockyard, but nope
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03:39:27  <Supercheese> Well, my train line is far exceeded capacity, time to replace it with canals
03:39:33  <Supercheese> and 960t ships
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05:17:05  <Supercheese> Yikes, Pikkawiki is getting the (Beeching?) axe
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05:18:04  <Supercheese> fortunately wikis save old content
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07:31:16  <Supercheese> Well, all the old 4-2-2 Spinners have been retired and replaced by 4-4-0 Edwardians, save for one, the very first loco I purchased, it's gone to the Supercheese Railway Museum
07:58:10  <Flytgon> Nice
07:58:38  <Supercheese> The game I'm playing:
07:58:42  <Supercheese> Year is now 1905
07:59:54  <Flytgon> Niice
08:00:23  <Supercheese> Maybe I should start a screenshot thread...
08:01:47  <Supercheese> Also, you seem to have picked up an extra "t" in your IRC name :P
08:03:01  <Flytgon> Do it
08:03:03  *** Flytgon is now known as Flygon
08:03:07  <Flygon> And, thanks x3
08:03:31  <Supercheese> you're welcome :)
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09:07:01  <andythenorth> Pikka hi beans
09:07:12  <Pikka> beems
09:07:20  <Pikka> what's afoot?
09:07:30  <Supercheese> 12 inches
09:07:41  <andythenorth> designing ship progression is tedious
09:08:00  <Pikka> :D
09:08:01  <Supercheese> I like how FISH does it
09:08:02  <andythenorth> is that NARS 2 generations thing really so bad?
09:08:03  <Supercheese> :)
09:08:11  <Pikka> whatcha got?  doing it in a spreadsheet?
09:08:14  <Pikka> yes, it's awful
09:08:27  <andythenorth> it's easy for the big stuff
09:08:29  <andythenorth> it gets bigger
09:08:31  <andythenorth> and faster
09:08:40  <andythenorth> but around 100t, you never want bigger
09:08:48  <andythenorth> bigger just screws with the routes you have set up
09:08:49  <Pikka> well
09:08:57  <andythenorth> and faster isn't much option with ships
09:09:00  <Pikka> you can do graphical generations, that's no problem
09:09:13  <Pikka> just don't do stat generations on one ID, it's terrible
09:09:16  <andythenorth> yup
09:11:02  <Pikka> gonna do shipspeed parameter? ;)
09:11:09  <Pikka> maybe up to 2x speed?
09:12:58  <andythenorth> meh
09:12:59  <andythenorth> dunno
09:13:09  <andythenorth> so, 100t puffer-sized ship
09:13:15  <andythenorth> 1 model for 150 years, different graphics?
09:13:23  <Pikka> sure
09:13:29  <andythenorth> or 2 models, switching to diesel at 1940 or so?
09:13:46  <Pikka> any particular reason to change model?
09:14:03  <Pikka> if you're not changing stats, may as well just have one
09:14:10  <andythenorth> might be a bit faster, maybe cheaper
09:14:18  <andythenorth> also building the same ship over and over gets boring
09:14:21  <Pikka> go on then :P
09:14:24  <Pikka> does it?
09:14:37  <andythenorth> 'upgrade' is one of the gameplay activities no?
09:14:43  <andythenorth> upgrading is fun?
09:14:55  <andythenorth> it's like going shopping
09:14:59  <Pikka> hmm
09:15:21  <Supercheese> Research and development!
09:15:26  <Supercheese> I dunno why people always want that :|
09:15:57  <Pikka> also, do I need a container flat?  I suppose I do.
09:16:02  <andythenorth> same reason they like birthday presents
09:16:09  <andythenorth> Pikka: don't stint on wagons :P
09:16:16  <andythenorth> too few wagons is boring
09:16:24  <andythenorth> or just do one 'universal wagon'
09:16:40  <Pikka> if I include a container wagon
09:16:41  <Pikka> I have
09:16:47  <Pikka> eight :]
09:16:48  <Supercheese> Wagon that can autorefit to anything
09:17:39  <Supercheese> Have the 'wagon' just change graphics based on cargo
09:17:49  <Supercheese> Hoppers if coal, tankers if oil
09:18:00  <Pikka> bearing in mind that each of those eight, across half a dozen country sets, all cargos, railtypes and eras from 1900 to 20something
09:18:01  <Supercheese> Just say 'well, I'm simulating shunting/recoupling other wagons'
09:18:12  <Pikka> is going to end up with about 50 graphic variations :)
09:18:20  <andythenorth> do we mind if wagons / barges / truck trailers change appearance totally when autorefitting?
09:18:27  * Supercheese does not mind
09:18:28  <andythenorth> BANDIT has to do it I think
09:18:33  <andythenorth> I could do it in FISH
09:18:36  <andythenorth> for barges
09:18:36  <Supercheese> Esp since it happens like mad in this game
09:18:44  <Pikka> maybe we don't mind if truck trailers change?
09:18:53  <Pikka> we probably mind if ships change
09:18:55  <Supercheese> It simulates changing trailers
09:19:03  <Supercheese> Like the wagons above
09:19:12  <Supercheese> Ships, less analogy, but who cares
09:19:25  <Supercheese> autorefit is boss
09:20:06  <Pikka> we probably also mind if train wagons change, but then we probably already have plans to work around that via prop 25...
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09:20:39  <andythenorth> good old prop 25
09:21:05  <andythenorth> special hax for trains
09:21:11  <Pikka> yes
09:21:15  <andythenorth> just remove the other transport types :|
09:21:40  <Pikka> just get peeter to add it to ships, no worries
09:21:48  <andythenorth> I've been told no before
09:21:51  <andythenorth> "it is wrong"
09:22:00  <Pikka> psh
09:22:23  <andythenorth> or I'm imagining that
09:22:24  <andythenorth> who knows
09:22:38  <andythenorth> certainly we all got bored of discussing it :P
09:22:39  <Pikka> why does your ship look different for different cargos anyway
09:22:45  <andythenorth> tankers innit
09:22:47  <Pikka> make tankers seperate models
09:22:51  <andythenorth> yeah done that
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09:22:59  <Pikka> no worries then :D
09:23:00  <andythenorth> tank barges are the thing in question
09:23:02  <Wolf01> moin
09:23:03  <andythenorth> tug + barges
09:23:09  <andythenorth> why not allow a tank barge swap?
09:23:14  <Pikka> whynotindeed
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09:26:59  <andythenorth> right, family stuff to do
09:27:05  <andythenorth> Pikka 'til next time :P
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09:59:19  <Alberth> moin
10:02:19  <Rubidium> moimoi Albert
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10:42:29  <peter1138> V453000, /win 7
10:42:31  <peter1138> er
10:42:34  <peter1138> what
10:43:03  <Pikka> wat wat
10:43:31  <Pikka> peter why won't you do prop 25 for ships for andy
10:43:33  <Pikka> meany
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10:49:04  <peter1138> what
11:06:47  <__ln__> what's .gs?
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11:08:21  <Eddi|zuHause> ".gs ist die lÀnderspezifische Top-Level-Domain (ccTLD) von SÌdgeorgien und  der SÌdlichen Sandwichinseln."
11:10:04  <__ln__> ach so
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11:15:01  <Terkhen> hello
11:31:49  <Pikka> they don't make SÃŒdlichen Sandwichinseln like they used to.
11:32:21  <stuf> ohai
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11:59:26  <peter1138> wut
12:09:39  <Pikka> what
12:11:54  <peter1138> wot
12:19:16  <peter1138> what the hell is "Transport Tycoon - Hall of Fame..."
12:19:20  <peter1138> posted by "Simuscape Team"
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12:32:25  <Alberth> a way to advertise for simuscape?
12:33:24  <peter1138> This post has already been reported.
12:33:25  <peter1138> heh
12:33:33  <peter1138> i wonder what it's reported for
12:35:08  <Alberth> I wondered whether you can have a "team" account at tt-forums :)
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12:43:55  <Flygon> Chinese found Naples
12:44:09  <Flygon> I might have compacted a bit in USA again
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13:16:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: the FOX News version of civilization might have such a thing :p
13:16:44  <Flygon> Fox News version of Civilization: All wars are over Iraqi Oi- er nukes
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13:26:28  <Kjetil> Weapons of mass osama
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13:40:39  <andythenorth> hi hi
13:42:17  <Alberth> hi
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13:49:51  <andythenorth> hmm
13:50:03  * andythenorth wonders who to vote for in TT hall of fame
13:50:14  <andythenorth> maybe...
13:50:40  <andythenorth> Chris Sawyer?
13:53:29  <jonty-comp> who the hell is he?
13:53:30  <jonty-comp> ;)
14:04:29  <Flygon> Vote for Flygon! Most obnoxious Pokemon Ty- I could never ever win that one, actually. :B
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14:13:10  <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: Josef Drexler, of course.
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14:26:25  <andythenorth> herp
14:26:35  <andythenorth> my new ship set has more slots free than I can fill :P
14:26:45  <Alberth> keep it that way!
14:27:44  <andythenorth> it has a specific philosophy I'm working to :)
14:27:49  <andythenorth> I must abide by the rules :P
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14:28:32  <Prof_Frink> Does it have ekranoplans?
14:29:13  <andythenorth> nope
14:33:12  <andythenorth> that stupid Island Trader keeps trying to get back into my set
14:34:38  <frosch123> isn't that the ship which can be clarified as fastest and biggest?
14:36:08  <andythenorth> not biggest
14:36:17  <andythenorth> but fastest and a very convenient size
14:36:30  <andythenorth> big != best for ships I've found
14:36:48  <oskari89> Andythenorth: push-tugboats coming?
14:36:53  <andythenorth> no
14:37:26  <andythenorth> I don't think so anyway
14:40:06  <andythenorth> maybe I could talk myself into it
14:41:22  <andythenorth> maybe I should do a 1900 start
14:41:25  <andythenorth> and only have 20 ships
14:42:11  <andythenorth> instead of 1870 with 30 ships
14:43:06  <andythenorth> nah
14:43:18  <andythenorth> pikka is going a bit extreme with this 10cc, 100 year thing :)
14:54:27  <andythenorth> ha, managed to keep the Island Trader out
14:58:02  <Alberth> expect questions to be raised about it :)
15:01:11  <andythenorth> so long as I ignore realistic ship speeds, all will be well
15:01:18  <andythenorth> realism is too limiting for ships :P
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15:03:15  <Alberth> realism is heavily overrated :)
15:05:49  <oskari89> Andythenorth: F1 boats for small island towns? ;)
15:05:52  <oskari89> 200 kph or so :)
15:06:02  <oskari89> And 2 persons
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15:15:14  <oskari89> And this class of ship would be nice: ;)
15:16:28  <oskari89> Not much clearance there though
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15:17:28  <oskari89> Cost for buying that class of ship could be astronomical in OpenTTD though :)
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15:30:43  <andythenorth> oskari89: what would you do with that ship in game?
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15:36:19  <peter1138> boom shakalaka
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16:07:18  <andythenorth> TTD sea isn't really sea, right?
16:07:23  <andythenorth> more like puget sound or something
16:11:42  <Eddi|zuHause> puwhat?
16:13:05  <andythenorth>
16:15:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you'll have to elaborate on this reasoning
16:16:25  <Eddi|zuHause> "TTD monorail isn't really monorail, more like disneyland or something"
16:18:17  <andythenorth> in short, do I need to draw bow doors on a ro-ro ferry?
16:18:24  <andythenorth> waves tend to sink them
16:19:11  <oskari89> andythenorth: Yes, doors are nice :)
16:19:12  <Eddi|zuHause> canal ferries without doors, sea ferries with doors
16:19:49  <Eddi|zuHause> and animate the doors on loading :)
16:20:41  <frosch123> we need a industry grf providing a salt water cargo
16:20:49  <frosch123> i would love to transport that with ships
16:21:32  <Eddi|zuHause> ballast water, because ships become unstable if they run empty
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16:25:29  <andythenorth> I should have included this in FISH
16:25:54  <andythenorth> too late now :)
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16:44:13  <andythenorth> livestock ship or reefer ship: pick one
16:44:52  <peter1138> general purpose mixed-cargo ship
16:45:08  <andythenorth> got that
16:45:26  <andythenorth> rm livestock ship && rm reefer
16:45:27  <andythenorth> done
17:01:56  <andythenorth> ho ho
17:02:04  <andythenorth> refittable capacity on container ships
17:02:10  <andythenorth> trade speed for capacity
17:02:12  <frosch123> did you find your ship?
17:02:29  <andythenorth> I am short one pax ship
17:02:41  <andythenorth> I have a gap in my table, but no gap in gameplay :P
17:02:55  <frosch123> how can there be a gap between a single ship?
17:03:06  <frosch123> you need two items to have a gap between them
17:03:12  <andythenorth> empty row in the table
17:03:14  <andythenorth> 30 rows
17:03:16  <andythenorth> one not filled :P
17:03:34  <frosch123> oh, you mean if the purchase list has only one item, there are many empty rows
17:03:43  <frosch123> yeah, i agree ottd should not display the list then
17:03:45  <frosch123> and just build the ship
17:03:59  <andythenorth> pax river boat?
17:04:11  <andythenorth> nah
17:04:13  <andythenorth> scrub that
17:04:29  * andythenorth is out of ideas
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17:05:35  <andythenorth> stern wheel paddle steamer?
17:05:38  <andythenorth> for novelty :P
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17:07:18  <Eddi|zuHause> remind me that i won't ever let andythenorth touch any of my tracking tables
17:07:28  <andythenorth> don't let pikka either
17:07:38  <andythenorth> he's doing the same, only more quietly
17:08:19  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: there are still hopes that andy decides different in a week or so :p
17:09:36  <andythenorth> all of FISH is still there
17:09:41  <andythenorth> I'm not going to rm the repo :P
17:09:58  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think that's actually the worse part of it all
17:11:49  <andythenorth> maybe I should try for 20 ships
17:11:53  <andythenorth> that would really force the issue
17:12:16  <andythenorth> currently there a few 'nice to have' ships left
17:13:07  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: well, it actually ensures that there is a grf for everyone at some point
17:13:18  <frosch123> you just need to fetch when yours shows up
17:13:33  <andythenorth> this silly rig supply ship isn't needed
17:13:50  <andythenorth> also should I kill one of the hydrofoils?  Eddi said they're too unbalanced for the game
17:15:37  <frosch123> just give them proper intro dates
17:15:42  <frosch123> do not introduce them in 1870
17:15:56  <andythenorth> they're 1960 and 1975 or so currently :P
17:22:11  <Eddi|zuHause> 2050
17:23:00  <Eddi|zuHause> or 2020
17:34:30  <andythenorth> I don't play past 2020 :P
17:34:36  <andythenorth> design goal is 1870-2020 :)
17:35:13  <andythenorth> but I do wonder about 1900-2000 to match pikka
17:35:23  <andythenorth> do same for HEQS, BANDIT, FIRS
17:35:36  <frosch123> if you restrict to a single year and a single cargo, you can get away with a single ship
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17:45:22  <andythenorth> frosch123: so what design goals would you set for a vehicle newgrf? o_O
17:47:14  <frosch123> provide a variety of balanced vehicles which give the player an interesting choice at any point of time
17:47:53  <frosch123> don't try to solve secondary gui issues by limiting the engine selection
17:48:12  <frosch123> except by providing decent retire early values
17:48:23  <frosch123> and by all means play without engines-never-expire
17:49:00  <frosch123> if you play with engines-never-expire and think there are too many choices, then you cannot be helped
17:49:24  <andythenorth> I think buy menu spam is a symptom - smell of a bad pattern
17:49:34  <andythenorth> not a problem in itself
17:49:42  <andythenorth> buy menu spam can be worked around
17:49:55  <andythenorth> but what does buy menu spam say about gameplay balance?
17:49:56  <frosch123> [17:57] <frosch123> don't try to solve secondary gui issues by limiting the engine selection <- this also means to give the player better filter functions in the gui, like that fs task providing company-specific manual retirement
17:50:32  <andythenorth> exactly
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18:06:31  <Eddi|zuHause> assuming 4 generations of ships (1870, 1920, 1960, 2000), 4 categories (small-river, medium-river, medium-sea, large-sea) and passenger/freight, you get 4*4*2=32 ships
18:06:44  <Eddi|zuHause> without any "buy menu spam"
18:08:05  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said to Pikka, over-minimization may be bad
18:09:25  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I have 30 ships ;)
18:09:36  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
18:09:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm saying you're trying to solve a problem that is no problem
18:10:01  <Eddi|zuHause> because you're already near the optimal solution
18:10:34  <andythenorth> but as mr. bird has said, TTD managed with 7 ships
18:10:38  <andythenorth> so why so many?
18:10:42  <andythenorth> is a question
18:10:57  <andythenorth> one answer would be: TTD ships were totally lame
18:11:00  <Eddi|zuHause> but as mister bird failed to see, TTD ships were horribly useless
18:11:10  <peter1138> ttd also started in 1950ish
18:11:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure if TTD already had refitting, but TTO had only ships for passengers/mail/coal/oil, and two generations
18:12:16  *** ntoskrnl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:14:05  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't really play any TTD at all, when i found TTD, there was already TTDPatch 1.7 or so
18:14:36  <frosch123> ttd ships could refit to anything except pax and mail
18:14:44  * peter1138 deletes his copies of BK tunnels on priniciple
18:15:00  <Eddi|zuHause> what does BK stand for, actually?
18:15:08  <peter1138> ben_k ?
18:15:09  <frosch123> ben k
18:16:11  <peter1138> hmm, 2cc set & 8/32bpp trains are all hidden away :p
18:16:26  <NGC3982> Burger King.
18:18:24  <__ln__> Burger King is good, but Jack in the Box is even better.
18:19:28  <NGC3982> Is that a hamburger franchise?
18:19:42  <__ln__> Yeah.
18:20:23  <NGC3982> Neat. Never heard of it.
18:20:43  <NGC3982> Sweden is represented with McDonalds, Burger King, Max and Frasses.
18:20:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i heard the name, but i've never actually seen one
18:21:21  * NGC3982 devoured double-cheeseburgers today.
18:21:42  <NGC3982> Ordering only the burgers are great, but not that economical
18:22:09  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if OpenTTD ever allows "enhanced tunnel heads", then they should come with builtin sprites that change the tunnel head appearance when something is above it
18:22:17  <NGC3982> Five double-cheeseburgers are like 100SEK (or 15 dollars).
18:22:50  <Eddi|zuHause> you spend 15$ on food?
18:22:53  <Eddi|zuHause> for one person?
18:23:01  <NGC3982> Yes.
18:23:02  <Eddi|zuHause> for one meal?
18:23:12  <NGC3982> Indeedly-doodly.
18:23:24  <Eddi|zuHause> for one fast-food meal?
18:23:42  <NGC3982> Yes. Fast food is not cheap in Sweden.
18:24:00  <NGC3982> A normal menu meal is around 70-80SEK.
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18:24:43  <Eddi|zuHause> the most expensive mcdoof meal i've seen was like 7€, the normal menus more like 5€
18:24:57  <Eddi|zuHause> and a Döner costs around 3€
18:25:04  <andythenorth> still can't fill one ship slot :P
18:25:09  <andythenorth> maybe I just do a squid
18:25:13  <andythenorth> or something else silly
18:25:22  <frosch123> ecranoplane
18:25:26  <Eddi|zuHause> (the latter one heavily depends on which city you are in, though)
18:25:33  <NGC3982> Correction: Fast food is not as cheap in relative to other foods in Sweden, as in most other countries.
18:25:47  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: I see.
18:26:05  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: A Döner is a little roll of kebab-ish food, right?
18:26:35  <NGC3982> Or does it only define the meat?
18:26:40  <Zuu> NGC3982: I hope you don't call a "kebabrulle" a little roll :-)
18:27:05  <Eddi|zuHause> a "Döner Kebab" means "rotating meat"
18:27:10  <NGC3982> Zuu: My experience tells me that the Swedish Kebabrulle is a bit larger then most similar courses around Europe.
18:27:19  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Ah, i see.
18:27:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not rolled
18:27:57  <Zuu> NGC3982: Ok, I never had a Kebabrulle elsewhere. Actually it is several yeas since the last time I had one at all.
18:28:16  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: But yes, to return to subject, 100SEK and five double cheeseburgers is a lot of money and a lot of food for a fast food meal.
18:28:35  <NGC3982> Though, that is something i can enjoy myself with, during my training.
18:28:42  <NGC3982> Zuu: Oh.
18:28:46  <NGC3982> Zuu: Well.. Good!
18:28:51  <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: for 15€ you could go to a decent restaurant and get real food
18:29:00  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, i could. Didn't feel like it, though.
18:29:54  <NGC3982> A good meal of sushi usually ends up at 13-17€
18:30:12  <Eddi|zuHause> and a normal sized Döner may cost between 1,50€ in some parts of berlin to 6€ in munich or so
18:30:20  <NGC3982> At least around here. We don't really have fast food (as in 'lower quality') sushi in Kronoberg county.
18:30:48  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: 1,50€ is a big city price.
18:31:07  <NGC3982> For most places in Sweden, cheap fast foods are limited to the biggest cities.
18:31:18  <NGC3982> Like the Malmö kebab/falaffel.
18:31:25  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: I really don't want to know what I am eating with a 1,50€ Döner though. Ignorance is bliss ;)
18:31:34  <NGC3982> falafel*
18:32:29  <NGC3982> Not comparing what a € is worth, a "good" kebab/döner-ish meal in Sweden ends up around 6-9€.
18:32:42  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i think horsemeat would be the least of the problems :p
18:33:00  <frosch123> isn't horsemeat actually more expensive than cow?
18:33:19  <frosch123> horse butchers always appeared like something special to me
18:33:20  <NGC3982> Real horsemeat, made for horsemeat, yes.
18:33:25  <NGC3982> Much, much more expencive.
18:33:48  <frosch123> and horse sausages are usually quite small
18:34:00  <NGC3982> Though, horsemeat as in "that dead horse we want to get rid off" can work out economic wise.
18:34:19  <frosch123> how many dead horses could there be?
18:34:20  <NGC3982> Yes, real horse meat feels like a speciality for me.
18:35:13  <NGC3982> frosch123: Well, the current investigation shows that some Swedish frozen foods contained Romanian horse meat. Maybe they made a deal and bought your-random-local-dead-animal and made meat with it.
18:35:17  <NGC3982> Heh, "made meat".
18:35:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that's only because there are fewer "horse herds" than "cow herds"
18:35:47  <NGC3982> It's really kind of scary.
18:36:00  <andythenorth> is it going to weird you all out if the appearance of a ship model changes over time?  Stats are same
18:36:00  <frosch123> i think some years ago there was some kabab guy discovered, who breeded rats in a room below his restaurant
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18:36:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes.
18:36:17  <andythenorth> figures
18:36:18  <frosch123> like in demolition man :)
18:36:18  <NGC3982> andythenorth: I think so.
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18:36:42  <frosch123> NGC3982: how did they discover that the horse was romanian? :o
18:36:44  <andythenorth> the alternative is a tedious, replace-like-for-like autoreplace, simply because the funnel and hull are slightly different
18:36:54  <NGC3982> frosch123: The meat is imported from Romania.
18:36:57  <NGC3982> frosch123: All of it.
18:38:07  <NGC3982> Seriosly, Stem cell meat.
18:38:11  <andythenorth> +1
18:38:13  <NGC3982> The world needs it.
18:38:23  <Eddi|zuHause> that always puzzled me... there is no sane reason why meat for frozen products needs to be shipped all through europe to be processed
18:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause> so why is it done?
18:38:48  <frosch123> shipping is just too cheap :p
18:38:51  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: because someone put too many refrigerated trucks in a newgrf, and now a purpose must be found :P
18:39:07  <Eddi|zuHause> freeze the meat on site, then ship the frozen products...
18:39:11  <andythenorth> shall I include a dredger for stupidity?
18:39:15  <NGC3982> Shipping within EU is almost for free.
18:39:27  <NGC3982> And Romaian laws (i guess) allow cheaper production.
18:40:11  <NGC3982> Swedish meat production is extremely costly.
18:40:12  <Alberth> and european politicians make weird laws about subsidizing
18:40:23  <NGC3982> OpenTTD developers*
18:40:24  <NGC3982> ;)
18:40:44  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: also, it is better to process the stuff in countries where you can ensure the workers that the product is sold somewhere else :p
18:40:44  <__ln__> NGC3982: I don't think Jack in the Box is international, it's western US only.
18:40:47  * Alberth always ignores the subsidies
18:41:00  <NGC3982> __ln__: Oh, i see.
18:41:15  <NGC3982> Alberth: Took me three years to get the energy to even google the term.
18:42:05  <Eddi|zuHause> 50% of EU funds go to farm subsidies
18:42:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the largest part of that to france, actually
18:42:43  <NGC3982> And we have a lot of food from France.
18:43:06  <andythenorth> hmm how about a bigger fishing boat?
18:43:12  <NGC3982> andythenorth: Yes!
18:43:17  <andythenorth> what's that grf with fishing grounds in?
18:43:23  <NGC3982> andythenorth: Also: A transformer ninja turtle robot.
18:43:36  <NGC3982> andythenorth: FIRS?
18:44:29  <andythenorth> so that standard fishing boat is 35t
18:44:57  <andythenorth> but fishing grounds can produce in a range up to 64t / month
18:45:07  <andythenorth> so big trawler...refittable to certain other cargos
18:45:14  <andythenorth> done
18:45:22  <andythenorth> think I've rebalanced everything :)
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19:23:48  <oskari89> :)
19:29:46  * Alberth feels very balanced
19:30:19  * NGC3982 hangs a weight on the left hand.
19:31:56  <Alberth> you don't want balance?
19:32:14  *** Snail [] has quit [Quit: Snail]
19:32:46  * NGC3982 does feel a bit devilish.
19:33:26  * Alberth fixes gravity
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19:36:49  <oskari89> Someone should write patch for historic statistics on graphical form, such as town population
19:37:20  <peter1138> Someone™
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19:38:15  <oskari89> Yes :P
19:38:17  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24985 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-02-10 18:48:04 UTC)
19:38:18  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:38:19  <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
19:38:20  <DorpsGek> turkish - 21 changes by magnum06
19:38:21  <DorpsGek> ukrainian - 43 changes by Strategy
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19:46:39  <LordAro> heyo
19:48:33  *** Progman_ [] has joined #openttd
19:52:36  *** chester_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:54:06  *** Progman [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:54:18  *** Progman_ is now known as Progman
19:55:01  <NGC3982> Hey, you guys are fantabulous on logic
19:55:02  <NGC3982>
19:55:21  <NGC3982> By judging the description; Does the package contain one or two stands?
19:55:21  <NGC3982> :D
19:58:01  * andythenorth didn't rebalance *everything*
19:58:02  <andythenorth> just
19:58:05  <andythenorth> a ship newgrf
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20:00:48  <Zuu> Hello LordAro
20:00:56  <LordAro> hi Zuu
20:03:01  *** Biolunar [] has joined #openttd
20:03:14  <frosch123> NGC3982: it says "set of 2"
20:03:28  <frosch123> so, unless you need two for one monitor, it should be two
20:04:02  <NGC3982> (Y)
20:04:48  <frosch123> ah, it is for speakers, not for displays
20:05:01  <frosch123> so, yeah, then it is a set of two stand for 2 boxes
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20:08:57  <NGC3982> That site is lethal
20:09:04  * NGC3982 cart is so big right now.
20:09:04  <NGC3982> :(
20:10:03  <Alberth> hi LordAro
20:10:12  <LordAro> hai Alberth
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20:39:09  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r24986 /trunk/src (6 files in 2 dirs) (2013-02-10 19:49:04 UTC)
20:39:10  <DorpsGek> -Change: Cleanup goals and cargo monitors of companies when they go bankrupt or are taken over.
20:54:43  *** chester_ [] has joined #openttd
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21:30:59  <andythenorth> so shall I call it FISH 2, SQUID, or 30CC FISH?
21:31:55  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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21:33:42  <Supercheese> PISCES
21:33:49  <andythenorth> herp
21:33:50  <andythenorth> not bad
21:33:53  <andythenorth> reverse it?
21:34:13  <Supercheese> eh?
21:39:39  <andythenorth> reverse-acronym
21:39:54  <andythenorth> Purchase Indvidual Ships blah blah blah
21:40:25  <Supercheese> Bah, why are recursive acronyms mandatory?
21:40:35  <Supercheese> Oh wait not recursive
21:40:45  <Supercheese> at least not necessarily :P
21:40:56  <andythenorth> just acronym
21:40:57  <Supercheese> Let's see...
21:41:06  <andythenorth> Heavy Equipment Set is not recursive ;)
21:41:15  <Supercheese> Yeah, realized that :P
21:42:25  <Supercheese> Pelagic & Inland Ships for Every Situation
21:42:29  <andythenorth> FISH Is Ships
21:42:34  <Supercheese> PISCES
21:42:44  <Supercheese> sound good?
21:42:45  <andythenorth> Pisces Is Ships Cut Eviscerated Shortened
21:42:50  <Supercheese> haha
21:44:44  <andythenorth> I still prefer SQUID
21:44:54  <andythenorth> SQUID eat FISH
21:44:59  <andythenorth> FISH has been digested :P
21:45:02  <Supercheese> Lots of things eat fish :P
21:45:06  * Supercheese eats fish
21:45:32  <Supercheese> What on Earth would SQUID acronym be, though
21:46:03  <andythenorth> Ships Quite Useful Individual Designs
21:46:36  <Supercheese> Eh :S
21:46:59  <Supercheese> I think the Cut, Eviscerated, and Shortened more accurately describes the set ;)
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21:52:20  <andythenorth>
21:53:55  * Supercheese never really played DOOM
21:55:29  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r24987 trunk/src/train_gui.cpp (2013-02-10 21:05:24 UTC)
21:55:30  <DorpsGek> -Fix: When choosing a train in a depot to attach a newly purchased wagon to, do not consider trains currently moving in and out of the depot.
21:55:32  <Supercheese> What what, no drag&drop Newobject placement yet?
21:56:02  <Supercheese> There should be A Patch For That™
21:56:11  * Supercheese searches
22:03:44  <Supercheese> No? How odd
22:06:13  <Eddi|zuHause> $somebody decided that it wouldn't be necessary/useful
22:06:15  *** Ashik [Ashik@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:12:43  <Supercheese> Dutch Road Furniture set needs drag&drop
22:12:56  <Supercheese> Trying to make a motorway is a massive pain without it
22:33:58  <Eddi|zuHause> code it then :)
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22:34:33  <Eddi|zuHause> a newgrf flag to allow dragging in X or Y (or both) directions
22:35:25  <Eddi|zuHause> or recode the newgrf to include longer stretches as single object
22:35:46  <Supercheese> why does it need to be a grf flag?
22:36:05  <Supercheese> then all existing object grfs would have to be updated to set the flag
22:42:11  <andythenorth> so random graphic variation is nice for vehicles
22:42:17  <andythenorth> but how much is too much?
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22:51:46  <Pikka> look out, it's andythenorth
22:52:10  <andythenorth> omg
22:52:13  <andythenorth> it's pikka chops
22:52:16  <andythenorth> what a to do
22:52:27  <Pikka> werd
23:03:00  <Wolf01> 'night all
23:03:04  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
23:04:17  <frosch123> night
23:04:20  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
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23:11:20  <andythenorth> Pikka: 30 ships, done it.  Couple that smell bad
23:11:37  <Pikka> rotten FISH
23:11:42  <andythenorth> yeah
23:11:43  <andythenorth> that
23:11:51  <andythenorth> very little model progression
23:11:59  <Pikka> spoken to dan yet
23:12:00  <Pikka> ?
23:12:07  <andythenorth> nerp
23:12:14  <andythenorth> nor coxx
23:12:37  <andythenorth> I'm mostly binning my own sprites though :P
23:12:44  <andythenorth> which might ease the pain
23:13:25  * Pikka nod
23:13:44  <andythenorth> I considered 20, 1900-2000
23:14:04  <andythenorth> but that's a bit overly militant, with the greatest respect to you and all that sail in you :P
23:14:34  <Pikka> :]
23:14:36  <Pikka> speaking of which
23:14:52  <LordAro> huh. i seem to have lost 4GB of memory...
23:14:54  <andythenorth> no sails
23:14:56  <Pikka> is fine right?  No-one needs anything more? :)
23:15:05  <Pikka> sails are funky though
23:15:36  <andythenorth> Pikka: 'needs' is a strong word
23:16:01  <andythenorth> I would have added an open box wagon, to mix things up a bit
23:16:02  <Pikka> well
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23:16:13  <andythenorth> express car handles mail?
23:16:25  <Pikka> yes, it is the mail/valuables car
23:16:44  <Pikka> goods/food too if you like
23:16:57  <andythenorth> no fridge, right?
23:17:03  <andythenorth> fridges are over-rated
23:17:06  <Pikka> yes
23:17:12  <Pikka> yes, no fridge
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23:17:34  <Pikka> covered will probably look like a fridge if fitted to food, depending on set/era.
23:17:41  <andythenorth> you don't need an open box wagon, but meh
23:17:49  <Pikka> well
23:18:01  <andythenorth> dropside :P
23:18:05  <Pikka> I've said "hopper", it might be boxy depending, again, on graphics :P
23:18:22  <andythenorth> I was thinking gondola / 5 plank
23:18:26  <andythenorth> but there's really no need
23:18:37  <Pikka> there is indeed really no need :]
23:18:58  <andythenorth> bricks :P
23:19:32  <Pikka> also, things like "realistically slow" early freight wagons would disadvantage those sets which have speed as their thing.
23:19:58  <andythenorth> you have 8?
23:20:01  <andythenorth> 8 is a nice number
23:20:19  <andythenorth> 30CC FISH is on this weird 8 + 2 thing
23:20:29  <Pikka> squiddy
23:20:52  <andythenorth> 3 x 10CC SQUID EAT FISH
23:20:55  <andythenorth> is my working title
23:21:03  <andythenorth> catchy?
23:21:16  <andythenorth> I need some drawers
23:21:22  <Pikka> fabulous
23:21:33  <Pikka> I still need to do my ship set some time
23:21:38  <Pikka> just so I can use the name
23:21:46  <andythenorth> I haz spare graphics now
23:21:48  <andythenorth> totally unused
23:21:52  <andythenorth> what's the name?
23:21:53  <Pikka> eh
23:21:55  <Pikka> but I want sails :P
23:21:58  <andythenorth> lame
23:21:58  <Pikka> fission
23:22:03  <andythenorth> :P
23:22:11  <andythenorth> sails are gone by 1900 in my view
23:22:19  <andythenorth> at least for all progressive transport empires
23:22:38  <Pikka> eh
23:22:46  <Pikka> even if they were, cool > realistic :P
23:22:52  <andythenorth> so BANDIT....has a few trucks until 1945, then everything after that is a Pete 379 forever more
23:22:52  <Terkhen> good night
23:22:58  <Pikka> sounds good
23:23:01  <Pikka> goodnight Terkhen
23:23:04  <andythenorth> bye Terkhen
23:23:26  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: if you want really minimalistic, you could get away with a "packaged wagon" a "bulk wagon" and a "liquid wagon"
23:23:47  <Pikka> any futuriztik trukz or can the 21st century bugger off?
23:23:52  <andythenorth> yes
23:24:00  <Eddi|zuHause> (for the respective cargo classes)
23:24:10  <andythenorth> I see a lot of futuristic concept trucks
23:24:26  <Pikka> if I wanted to be really minimalistic, eddi, I could have one wagon that carries everything
23:24:26  <andythenorth> and then they turn up with a diesel engine, looking like last year's volvo, with new lights
23:24:27  <Pikka> but I don't
23:24:36  <andythenorth> so what should I use for VERY LARGE FERRY (1600 PAX)
23:24:37  <andythenorth> ?
23:24:58  <Pikka> ew
23:25:04  <Pikka> I dunno, do you need one?
23:25:12  <andythenorth> think so
23:25:13  <andythenorth> might smell
23:25:26  <andythenorth> I think they ought to be fun in big cities
23:25:28  <Pikka> you had a big ferry, didn't you?
23:25:37  <andythenorth> yes, this one replaces it
23:25:44  <andythenorth> after 45 years or something
23:25:55  <andythenorth> I always use hydrofoils personally
23:26:01  <andythenorth> faster > bigger
23:26:04  <Pikka> yes
23:26:05  <Eddi|zuHause> haven't you removed like 5 ferries, just put one back?
23:26:19  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: most of the ferries survived
23:26:26  <andythenorth> they're mostly quite different
23:26:35  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, ok
23:26:39  <Pikka> I got about as far as planning the ferries for fission
23:26:40  <Zuu> andythenorth: a futuristic ferry that resizes passengers to a 10th of their usual size when on the ferry :-)
23:26:50  <andythenorth> could do a supercat
23:26:52  <andythenorth> fast
23:26:54  <Pikka> the first one is actually the largest D:
23:27:17  <Pikka> I should probably swap its capacity with the second one...
23:27:35  <Pikka> that looks a bit better
23:27:48  <Pikka> anyway, the largest ferry I had was 320 pax
23:28:16  <Pikka> which admittedly might be a bit small, especially if people aren't playing with TaI-like towns and small maps :o
23:28:50  <Eddi|zuHause> old fish probably had too many in-between steps
23:29:12  <Eddi|zuHause> there's not much point in having a ship twice the size, just use two ships
23:29:12  <Pikka> it's all about the min/max
23:29:20  <Eddi|zuHause> but 10 times makes a serious difference
23:29:37  <andythenorth> yeah, but 10k pax is rather a lot :P
23:29:45  <Eddi|zuHause> especially if you consider running costs
23:30:42  <andythenorth> Pikka: even TaI can turn out a lot of pax
23:30:54  <andythenorth> big cat
23:31:07  <andythenorth> won't fit canals :P
23:31:24  <Supercheese> Big cat -- Lion?
23:31:27  <Supercheese> Tiger?
23:31:36  <Pikka> too big for me
23:31:45  <Pikka> this one's the fast ferry for fission
23:32:04  <andythenorth> shiny
23:32:19  *** zeknurn [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:32:32  <Pikka> 45mph, 160 pax...
23:33:01  <andythenorth> teeny tiny
23:33:02  *** zeknurn [] has joined #openttd
23:33:06  <andythenorth>
23:33:18  <andythenorth> 1500 pax, sam speed
23:33:20  <andythenorth> same *
23:33:25  <Pikka> yes
23:33:33  <Pikka> but I like tiny :P
23:33:44  <Pikka> and not realistic capacity anyway
23:35:06  <andythenorth> 600t, 45knots
23:35:09  <andythenorth> 'vomit comet'
23:35:18  <andythenorth> I'll put that in for fast freight :P
23:35:45  <Pikka> D:
23:41:01  <andythenorth> or not
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23:50:19  <andythenorth> Pikka: how much faster would you have ships go?  1.5x ?  2x?
23:50:55  <Pikka> a parameter for up to 2x
23:51:02  <Pikka> so yes, perhaps both 1.5 and 2 as options
23:51:06  <andythenorth> the game should just do it, and lie
23:51:12  <Pikka> eeh
23:51:14  <Pikka> maybe
23:51:23  <andythenorth> it's going to bug me seeing '36mph' for coasters
23:51:40  <oskari89> !seen as
23:51:46  <oskari89> Blah, wrong
23:51:49  <oskari89> @seen as
23:51:49  <DorpsGek> oskari89: I have not seen as.
23:52:50  <andythenorth> Pikka: according to 10CC rules, you get two more 'wagons' :P
23:52:58  <andythenorth> you have to fill those slots o_O
23:53:12  <Pikka> there are no rules
23:53:26  <Pikka> also what about the 2 monos and 2 maglevs?
23:53:27  <andythenorth> meh
23:53:44  <andythenorth> what do they get?  'maglev car'?
23:53:52  <Pikka> they get the same wagons as trains
23:54:45  <Pikka> there might be a parameter to limit them to passengers and express, but there might not.
23:55:07  *** Superuser [] has joined #openttd
23:55:21  <Supercheese> Vacuum tube trains were pax/mail/goods only, and users demanded freight wagons...
23:55:36  <Supercheese> "must ... transport ... coal... at Mach 19
23:55:38  <Supercheese> "
23:55:49  <Superuser> oh boy
23:55:57  <Superuser> {LTBLUE}- {CARGO_LONG} ({CARGO_SHORT}) (x{NUM})
23:56:04  <Supercheese> Although with a vacuum no speed of sound...
23:56:09  <Superuser> (yes, I'm at it again, hopefull I can finish the last 1k string before ottd 1.3)
23:56:28  <Superuser> × is the multiplication sign in Unicode, not x (that's an x)
23:57:02  <Superuser> change it? :D
23:57:11  <Superuser> this is not the only string affected
23:57:18  <Superuser> there's maybe 10, 20
23:57:35  <Superuser> Anyone?
23:58:35  <Zuu> Superuser: What is the name of that string?
23:58:43  <Zuu> STR_...
23:58:57  <Superuser> ah I forgot
23:59:11  <Superuser> there's quite a few of them, I'd grep for x{NUM}
23:59:22  <Superuser> dunno if grep can search multiple files though :(

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