Log for #openttd on 13th February 2013:
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00:25:26  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:38:51  <Bad_Brett> finally i managed to create a formula that seems to work...
00:39:04  <Supercheese> sprite offsets are blah
00:39:36  <Supercheese> anything that works for you, stick with it
00:40:34  <Bad_Brett> abs(spriteheight-1)*2^5-childspriteposition
00:40:40  <Bad_Brett> who would have guessed?
00:40:48  <Supercheese> @______@
00:40:57  <Bad_Brett> no i mean
00:41:07  <Bad_Brett> abs(z5_spriteheight-1)*2^5-childspriteposition
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00:41:34  <Bad_Brett> i want the past two nights back
00:43:48  <Bad_Brett> but i must admit that it looks quite nice
00:47:02  <Bad_Brett> i refuse to set any offsets manually! :P
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00:50:27  * Supercheese sets all his offsets manually
00:54:31  * Eddi|zuHause scripts all offsets
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01:02:46  * FLHerne randomly picks offsets until they work :-(
01:03:04  <FLHerne> I should really try figuring them out sometime :P
01:12:06  <Eddi|zuHause> the key is having good templates
01:12:32  * Supercheese often doesn't use templates
01:14:45  <Bad_Brett> yep... especially if you're doing complex stuff
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01:16:58  <Bad_Brett> for example, have fun splitting up the sprites in animations such as this one:
01:17:18  <Supercheese> I'd just make that all one big animation
01:17:28  <Supercheese> although it might span multiple tiles, which would be a pain
01:17:44  <Bad_Brett> that might cause glitches though
01:18:15  <Supercheese> if it ended up needing to be a 2x2 object...... blarg, yeah
01:18:28  <Supercheese> I would not look forward to chopping those sprites up @_@
01:19:00  <Bad_Brett> exactly... that's you write a simple script and let the computer do the work instead of you :)
01:19:04  <Bad_Brett> *why
01:20:03  <FLHerne> Bad_Brett: Are you planning to put that in OTTD!? :o
01:20:18  <Bad_Brett> you bet
01:21:08  <Bad_Brett> i got inspired while watching Whale Wars :D
01:21:50  <FLHerne> But it looks ACTUALLY REALISTIC! And not pixelated or at a strange angle! And it's a WHALE!
01:22:18  * FLHerne is quite startled by realistic-looking OTTD
01:24:02  <Bad_Brett> it looks quite nice in-game
01:25:44  <FLHerne> So do all your disturbingly convincing spritey things :-)
01:26:10  <Bad_Brett> :D
01:26:12  <Supercheese> like that conestoga wagon... :D
01:26:28  <Supercheese> good stuff
01:29:07  <Bad_Brett> thanks... i wonder if it will be fun to play with though... i may have to feed the oxen with steroids so they walk a bit faster :P
01:29:39  <Supercheese> 2x 'realistic' speeds should be fine
01:30:00  <Supercheese> some of the eGRVTS horses get a bit silly though, running around approaching 20 mph :P
01:30:43  <Bad_Brett> :D
01:31:57  <Supercheese> the Wells Fargo coach must have been REALLY behind schedule to approach those speeds ;)
01:32:12  <Bad_Brett> haha
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01:34:28  <Supercheese> "A Conestoga wagon, pulled by a team of six draft horses, averaged 15 miles a day."
01:34:44  <Supercheese> 0.625 mph?
01:34:51  <Bad_Brett> heh
01:34:55  <Supercheese> Average ≠ instantaneous, of course
01:35:39  <Bad_Brett> my idea is to make the rivers quite important
01:35:56  <Supercheese> Steamboats galore
01:35:59  <Supercheese> :D
01:36:03  <Bad_Brett> exactly!
01:36:05  <Bad_Brett> :D
01:36:16  <Eddi|zuHause> cross the USA map with that :p
01:36:28  <kormer> I played a US map starting at 1700 once and it was a blast running ships until 1830
01:36:54  <Bad_Brett> that's great to hear
01:37:09  <Supercheese> The only .grf with ships in the 1700s is the sailing ship grf, no?
01:37:13  <kormer> Yes
01:37:22  <Supercheese> Seems kinda of silly using full-rigged ships on rivers
01:37:27  <Bad_Brett> guess i'll have to try it then
01:37:29  <Supercheese> kind of*
01:37:38  <kormer> Yes, that part wasn't too realistic.
01:37:58  <Bad_Brett> i'm going to set a huge speed penalty on those
01:37:58  <Supercheese> I'm not even sure what 18th-century riverboats would look like
01:38:26  <kormer> There really weren't any, it would have mostly been mule-pulled barge traffic
01:39:01  <Supercheese> "Fifteen miles on the Eerie Canal"... ♭
01:39:08  <kormer> And almost all pre-steamboat mississippi river traffic was one way
01:39:29  <Supercheese> or was it years
01:39:39  <Eddi|zuHause> "Noch 20 Minuten bis Buffalo"
01:40:52  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a movie on TV recently of 1920's berlin, and they had river/canal boats that were pushed venice-style with someone with a long pole on the boat
01:41:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i think 1927
01:41:24  <Bad_Brett> cool
01:41:38  <Supercheese> Oh, venice boats
01:41:44  <Supercheese> what are they caleed, gondolas?
01:41:44  <FLHerne> We have nice punts here in Cambridge, but not big :P
01:41:46  <Supercheese> called*
01:41:53  <Eddi|zuHause> they were much larger boats than in venice
01:44:00  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- i think this is the movie
01:45:13  <Supercheese> I love German, the compounding of adjectives onto nouns eliminates some of the ambiguity we have in English with adjectives
01:46:06  <Supercheese> it also leads to some hilariously long words
01:47:38  <Supercheese> just a few weeks ago, "Big gun debate". Is that a debate about big guns, or a big debate about guns?
01:48:01  <Supercheese> You'd probably compound it in German to eliminate that ambiguity
01:54:43  <Eddi|zuHause> there isn't really a lot of text in the movie :p
01:55:12  <Supercheese> Text written on various things, walls/signs/etc
01:55:40  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i'd call it "große Waffendebatte" [big (gun debate)] vs. "Große-Waffen-Debatte" [(big gun) debate]
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01:56:05  <Supercheese> Yep, there's the compounding
01:56:21  <Supercheese> big Gundebate
01:56:34  <Supercheese> big Fruittree
01:57:12  <Supercheese> Hmm, I dunno why we can't theoretically have more compounding in English
01:57:29  <Eddi|zuHause> just do it, let it catch on :)
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01:59:19  <Supercheese> Heh, a tank engine running cab forward
01:59:37  <Supercheese> Tankengine
02:01:30  <Supercheese> Man, lots of men in the film seems to have the stereotypical Hitler-mustache ... :S
02:01:37  <Supercheese> must have been popular
02:01:49  <Supercheese> I dunno if there's a better term for it
02:02:05  <Supercheese> ; it seems
02:04:05  <Supercheese> Wow, so much machinery
02:04:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it was fairly popular, yes. this was before hitlers rise, though
02:06:06  <Supercheese> Horse-drawn garbagetruck?
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02:18:56  <Eddi|zuHause> what i find interesting is the pre-electrification S-Bahn
02:21:11  <Eddi|zuHause> electric at that time was only the tram and the subway, the S-Bahn was electrified during the 30's
02:23:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the boats come somewhen after the lunch break scenes
02:25:23  <Eddi|zuHause> (the movie roughly follows the course of a day: morning commute, industrial shift start, commercial activities, lunch, afternoon shift, afternoon commute, leasure time, theater/culture, night
02:27:52  <Eddi|zuHause> especially night recordings wre a brand new thing back then...
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03:25:21  * Supercheese hates date restrictions on objects/stations
03:25:37  <Supercheese> let me build this station, damnit
03:28:11  <Supercheese> I'd rather have vehicles be the only things date-restricted, let everything else be build whenever
03:28:24  <Supercheese> built*
03:30:32  <Supercheese> rail/roadtypes being tied to vehicles, of course
03:34:08  <Supercheese> Where do I go in the code to turn off the date check for station/object availability...
03:37:18  <Supercheese> *available = false; --> *available = true;
03:37:20  <Supercheese> perhaps
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03:57:47  <Supercheese> Nope, that wasn't it
03:59:28  <Supercheese> Fixed objects
04:04:25  <Supercheese> ah, it's under rail_gui.cpp
04:06:52  <Supercheese> I'm accumulating many personal modifications to the OTTD source :S
04:07:17  <Supercheese> ≈5 distinct mods I'll now apply to all future compiles
04:12:37  <Supercheese> blaaah, still not working
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04:42:10  <Supercheese> Scratch that, more mods
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08:03:14  <peter1138> pff
08:13:08  <Pikka> .pdf
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08:15:43  <planetmaker> png?
08:16:07  <Pikka> .pcx
08:16:14  * Pikka does it oldeschooles
08:17:39  <peter1138> .cgm?
08:18:57  <Pikka> filthy swine
08:20:47  <Pikka> ho ho
08:21:02  <Pikka> I knew as soon as I saw oztrans's "testing" grf on bananas that some drama was afoot.
08:21:08  <Supercheese> decidedly
08:21:17  <Supercheese> Simuscape is 110% drama
08:21:28  <peter1138> hmm?
08:21:53  <Pikka>
08:22:15  <Pikka> he's uploading non-grfs to bananas which say "come and get my grfs at simuscape" in the description
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08:25:25  <planetmaker> when is that guy no drama?
08:25:51  <Supercheese> I say permaban him and be done with it
08:26:21  <Supercheese> but of course that may come off as heavy handed
08:26:33  <planetmaker> not at all, if you want my opinion
08:27:23  <peter1138> if (*name == '!') skip();
08:27:47  <peter1138> the new sorting is awkward for numbered grfs :(
08:28:15  <planetmaker> we have that already, kind of, peter1138. And numbering is better done trailing
08:28:31  <peter1138> i refer to 2cc set
08:28:39  <peter1138> not version numbering
08:28:41  <planetmaker> hm :_)
08:29:06  <Supercheese> Oh damn, can't edit my post at Simuscape
08:29:06  <peter1138> 8/32bpp trains too
08:29:14  <peter1138> Supercheese, lolol
08:29:37  <peter1138> Supercheese, after the furore that oztrans himself caused on tt-forums, that's funny
08:29:55  <planetmaker> hypocrite
08:30:19  <Supercheese> "You cannot edit your posts in this forum"
08:31:10  <Supercheese> Sigh, it's a shame I really enjoy the Canadian/North American grfs, else I would just quit Simuscape entirely and never look back
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08:35:36  <Pikka> of course, it won't even work
08:35:50  <Pikka> people who care about his work will check simuscape for updates anyway
08:36:11  <Pikka> babbies who download everything blindly will just download the dummy grf and not even notice that it doesn't do anything
08:36:16  <Pikka> and no-one else cares
08:36:25  <Supercheese> That is a fairly accurate summary
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08:37:12  <Supercheese> hahaha, there's only one entry for Simuscape at bugmenot:
08:37:23  <Supercheese> but check the comment :>
08:39:38  <Pikka> <peter1138> 8/32bpp trains too <-- 10CC also D;
08:40:13  <peter1138> i was thinking that, but it's not on bananas yet so i forgot when it came to listing it
08:40:23  <Pikka> :)
08:40:48  <Supercheese> Rename it to "Ten Cee Cee"
08:41:03  <peter1138> hmm, who wrote the build framework that chips uses?
08:41:51  <Ammler> yexo
08:41:58  <Supercheese> Or 1e-5 m³
08:42:01  <Ammler> and pm
08:42:11  <__ln__> good fortnightmorning
08:42:18  <peter1138> cos it includes license information, but no copyright information
08:42:23  <peter1138> which is a little odd
08:42:51  <peter1138> anyway, as a tool, its licence doesn't apply to my produced work, right?
08:44:30  <Ammler> you never give up your own rights, if you participate to a gpl project, do you
08:44:45  <peter1138> ?
08:44:48  <Supercheese> Oh good lord, screw this algorithm, took me ten minutes to figure out I was supposed to be iterating backwards and not forwards
08:44:58  <Supercheese> why couldn't it say that up front?
08:45:42  <Ammler> you can still do whatever you like with your own work, the license does just matter for people using your work from chips
08:45:54  <Pikka> that's right, Ammler
08:46:33  <Pikka> unless you've given someone an exclusive licence you can always do whatever you like with your own work
08:47:01  <Pikka> (where "your own work" means "work you own the copyright to", not necessarily "what you've worked on")
08:47:11  <__ln__> Ammler: well... GNU projects often require reassigning your copyright to the FSF.
08:47:18  <peter1138> Ammler, none of it is my work
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08:47:52  <Ammler> "..doesn't apply to my produced work"
08:48:00  <peter1138> Ammler, oh you refer to my chips fixes...
08:48:16  <peter1138> no, i'm talking about something from scratch that uses the the Makefiles
08:48:19  <peter1138> the the the
08:48:32  <Ammler> well, the makefile framework is not seen as tool as it is part of the source
08:48:47  <Ammler> so if you use it you need to use the same license
08:49:08  <Ammler> or ask the author for permission to relicense
08:49:27  <Ammler> (might not be an issue either)
08:49:36  <planetmaker> the makefile framework would need to be applied to each NewGRF individually and is usually part of its source... just like OpenTTD's makefile
08:49:59  <peter1138> right, good that i checked then :p
08:50:08  <peter1138> hmm
08:50:12  <peter1138> i wonder about the waf license
08:50:21  <planetmaker> you need a special license? :D
08:53:09  <peter1138> no
08:53:12  <peter1138> not really
08:53:19  <peter1138> i should code it all first
08:53:21  <Ammler> __ln__: yes that you do but you can still "sell" your part with another license
08:53:22  <planetmaker> honestly, I've been thinking of licensing it as CC-BY. But... meh. I can do that on an individual basis except some additional scripts
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08:54:27  <planetmaker> Ammler, not sure you can do that, if you gave away your copyright
08:54:47  <Ammler> why should you give away your copyrights?
08:54:50  <peter1138> planetmaker, as i'm fed up with licensing bullshit in our little clique, i'd've gone with BSD or something
08:54:59  <__ln__> Ammler: not really, if you have assigned the copyright to someone else. (note that assigning copyright to someone else is not required with GPL in general)
08:55:20  <planetmaker> might be better, yes, peter1138. Especially for a Makefile framework
08:55:23  <DDR_> I've got some stuff dual-licenced. It can work.
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08:55:37  <planetmaker> I might actually change that... couldn't be arsed so far, though
08:55:42  <planetmaker> or the wtf-license
08:55:59  <DDR_> Bless the wtfpl
08:56:03  <peter1138> i mean for stuff i produced. if i ever did.
08:56:12  <DDR_> It's a wonderfully simple licence. :)
08:56:19  <Pikka> I've avoided any kind of makefile so far
08:56:30  <Ammler> imo, gpl is fine, it kinda forces people to use also gpl
08:56:32  <planetmaker> batch files, Pikka ?
08:56:45  <Pikka> but I have to say, doing industries... yuck, I see the attraction of not having one wall o' code :)
08:56:56  <__ln__> Ammler: because some projects -- e.g. the GNU project -- wants to avoid the trouble of having a thousand copyright holders, whose permission is required for any licensing changes or whatever. and because that way the FSF could theoretically defend its (formerly your) copyright in court.
08:57:00  <peter1138> DDR_, not too keen on that
08:57:04  <DDR_> I also like the wtfpl(beer) licence. It's like the wtfpl licence, except that it states that if you found my stuff useful and you're in the area you should consider buying me a beer.
08:57:19  <planetmaker> ^^
08:57:40  <peter1138> Ammler, that's the bit i don't want to do :)
08:58:14  <Ammler> peter1138: publish the source?
08:59:15  <Ammler> as said, pm might make a exception for you, but IMO, it is fine the publishd framework is gpl
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09:00:36  <Supercheese> Ahh, commented out the checks for date restrictions on objects & stations, now I can build them whenever
09:01:29  <peter1138> Ammler, you can't really make an exception to a more-open license for one person
09:01:58  <planetmaker> I can. But sure enough it's then kinda pointless to keep the more restrictive one ;-)
09:02:06  <peter1138> quite
09:02:29  <planetmaker> But if it needs a makefile for one project, it can be cut down quite severely. It's rather versatile right now
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09:02:40  <Ammler> well, "more-open" is also pov issue
09:03:10  <planetmaker> Ammler, less restrictions is surely more open :-) Also open to the permission to close it completely :-)
09:04:10  <Ammler> hehe, so basically you consider closing the source as more open :-)
09:04:52  <planetmaker> Ammler, no. But giving permission for another person to use it in closed-source is definitely more freedom (for that person) than forcing that person to be open-source
09:05:15  <Ammler> as said, I would not call that more open
09:07:36  <planetmaker> actually the only restriction which I want on my makefile is "you need to allow people to make modifications or derivatives of your NewGRF if you use this makefile framework"
09:08:08  <Ammler> where gpl is perfect for
09:08:15  <planetmaker> thus probably CC-SA
09:09:00  <planetmaker> without -BY -NC and -ND
09:09:10  <Ammler> you know someone who would have used your framwork but didn't because of the license?
09:09:59  <planetmaker> not exactly. But then, it's still not 100% easy to use. Needs a linux-like environment... and configuration
09:10:13  <planetmaker> there's no setup script (yet)
09:10:51  <Supercheese> Gotta love some .grf licenses: "Modifications to this graphics file are not permitted, nor is content extraction, without the explicit permission of the author."
09:10:57  <planetmaker> and it needs a version which deals with pure NML. without the fancy gcc / gimp / ... overhead
09:11:06  <Supercheese> grfcodec -d   -- whoops, violated license
09:11:23  <planetmaker> yup
09:11:37  <planetmaker> that's usual for commercial bullshit
09:12:02  <Supercheese> I think I violated the license even before I loaded it in-game :S
09:12:25  <Supercheese> anyway, time to sleep
09:12:30  <planetmaker> sleep well :-)
09:12:40  <peter1138> content extraction eh?
09:13:09  <Supercheese> valete omnes
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09:13:09  <planetmaker> you've the license for any sleep type you want, though ;-) without requiring anyone's permission
09:13:09  <peter1138> does the game opening it count as content extraction?
09:13:21  <planetmaker> haha :-)
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09:26:34  <peter1138> /win 9
09:26:36  <peter1138> werhgewrhgiehg
09:26:44  <__ln__> english only
09:27:13  <planetmaker> time to change a password? :-)
09:27:33  <peter1138> no
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09:54:29  <peter1138> "Is there any chance of making a binary?"
09:54:41  <peter1138> is it wrong to reply with "Yes, apply the patch and compile" ?
09:56:43  <planetmaker> technically correct. socially it would count as trolling
09:57:01  <Pikka> you may be accused of being unhelpful, peter1138
09:57:15  <planetmaker> practically that might even be the right answer despite ^
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10:21:30  <andythenorth> bonsoir
10:21:45  <planetmaker> bon jour
10:23:01  <Pikka> hallo mr andrew dans le nord
10:23:17  <Eddi|zuHause> <Ammler> well, the makefile framework is not seen as tool as it is part of the source <-- i don't think this is true, because what matters is what is part of the _binary_ that you distribute
10:24:46  <andythenorth> can we haz not dramaz?
10:25:47  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, would it be ok to distribute OpenTTD w/o its makefile, config.lib and configure scripts?
10:26:40  <Pikka> that's what I said, andy
10:27:19  <andythenorth> I am +1 to what you said
10:28:33  <andythenorth> I have named all my ships
10:28:38  <andythenorth> fun times
10:28:50  <andythenorth> they all fit a pattern, except one, which is joke no-one will get :(
10:29:03  <Pikka> what is it
10:29:15  * Pikka promises to get it
10:29:29  <andythenorth> Roland Tanker
10:29:30  <andythenorth> has capacity 606 (thousand l)
10:29:36  <andythenorth> used to have 808
10:30:12  <andythenorth> maybe I should give it 303
10:30:47  <Pikka> I probably get it
10:31:15  <andythenorth> it's not actually funny
10:31:17  <andythenorth> at all
10:31:19  <andythenorth> it just amuses me
10:31:59  <Pikka> which is fair enough
10:32:03  <Pikka> your ships, your rules
10:32:55  <andythenorth> maybe I should rename it to fit the pattern
10:33:01  <Pikka> my coal mine just about works :)  then I will have one working industry chain
10:33:05  <andythenorth> I think the joke has outlived its life
10:33:08  <Pikka> coal mine -> powerstation
10:33:12  <andythenorth>  winner
10:33:13  <Pikka> not much of a chain
10:33:19  <andythenorth> nearly as good as original TTD
10:34:06  <andythenorth> this one's nice
10:34:09  <andythenorth> maybe I call it that
10:34:23  <Pikka> star point lighthouse tanker?
10:34:31  <andythenorth> - lighthouse
10:34:47  <Pikka> starpoint?
10:35:05  <Pikka> starp oint
10:36:10  <andythenorth> hah found a better oen
10:36:31  <andythenorth>
10:37:36  <peter1138> god damn evolution sucks these days
10:37:41  <peter1138> (the email client)
10:37:43  <peter1138> it just crashed
10:37:44  <peter1138> fair enough
10:37:59  <peter1138> started it again and it no longer knows about email for this month :S
10:38:45  <andythenorth> mail is over-rated anyway
10:38:55  <peter1138> yers
10:39:04  <andythenorth> you don't miss much
10:39:10  <andythenorth> I have stopped reading email
10:40:36  <SpComb> as a sysadmin maintaing a mail server, I disagree!
10:40:40  <SpComb> it's highly important
10:40:59  <peter1138> my colleagues get annoyed when i don't read email
10:41:12  <SpComb> you wouldn't replace a sysadmin with bits in a google cloud, would you :<
10:43:44  <andythenorth> peter1138: if it's important, they'll phone you, no?
10:43:55  <peter1138> yes
10:44:23  <peter1138> conversation i just had
10:44:42  <andythenorth> conversation yes
10:44:49  <andythenorth> email is not conversation IT IS SHOUTING
10:44:56  * andythenorth digresses
10:45:14  <andythenorth> I should make some ships
10:45:17  <peter1138> no, the phone call was shouting :p
10:45:21  <andythenorth> that's ok
10:45:25  <peter1138> i haven't seen the email
10:45:27  <peter1138> because it crashed
10:45:38  <andythenorth> phone call shouting is perfectly reasonable behaviour
10:45:38  <peter1138> and is redownloading everything for feb
10:45:51  <andythenorth> I *should* do some work
10:45:57  <andythenorth> although it is my birthday
10:46:12  <peter1138> sounds like a day off
10:46:20  <andythenorth> I don't like days off
10:46:24  <peter1138> weirdo
10:46:35  <andythenorth> had a day off yesterday for the kid's birthday
10:46:49  <andythenorth> was ok I guess
10:46:50  <andythenorth> :)
10:47:58  <andythenorth> Pikka: why do Australians make so many fast catamarans?
10:48:12  <andythenorth> you're excessively enthusiastic about it
10:48:53  <peter1138> second pot of coffee brewed
10:51:57  <peter1138> "my milkshake brings all the boys to the yard"
10:51:58  <peter1138> wtf?
10:52:06  <andythenorth> great song
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11:05:25  <Pikka> andythenorth, because we have a lot of water I suppose?  a lot of long thin routes.
11:06:15  *** Devroush [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:06:28  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: a) openttd binaries ARE distributed without these files, and b) openttd's GPL license states (afair) the source code version must include build scripts etc., but it does not say that these buildscripts must be under the same license
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11:08:02  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, b) doesn't add up. Or I license every loc under a different license
11:08:09  <peter1138> who was talking about openttd?
11:08:58  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that honestly depends on how intertwined the two parts are
11:09:30  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: e.g. what if you put the sourcecode of a library that you "link to" into the source repo?
11:10:43  <planetmaker> "For an executable work, complete source code means all the source code for all modules it contains, plus any associated interface definition files, plus the scripts used to control compilation and installation of the executable." from the license
11:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the fact that many projects use the newgrf-makefile independently supports the theory that it's a "tool" that is just "bundled" with the source, so it doesn't have to be the same license
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11:12:04  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, it doesn't. without it you're loosing essential parts which are needed to build the newgrfs
11:12:09  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you failed to quote the exception where you don't need to include the compiler etc.
11:12:12  <planetmaker> of course you could organize it differently
11:12:46  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, the compiler is nmlc. But the makefile surely is no compiler but a build script which contains the config to build that particular NewGRF
11:13:00  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: so where do you draw the line?
11:13:22  <Eddi|zuHause> if i have "makefile bundled with nmlc", that bundle is surely the compiler
11:14:31  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, the line is where information are added which are specific. The newgrf-makefile framework as-is, does NOT work without adapting it to every single newgrf it is used with
11:15:01  <planetmaker> a compiler needs no such configuration. The configuration (parameter, call sequence...) that's part of the build scripts. Which such are part of the source.
11:15:18  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: ao the configfile for the makefile is part of the project source, but not the makefile-framework
11:18:51  <planetmaker> That *might* work. If you could really separate the config file from the rest. Which you can't sensibly do in this case. But it's not practical either as there's no defined interface (yet?)
11:21:06  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but the argument is backwards, you argue with the GPL clause that you have to include the build scripts, but if i release a grf under a separate license which does not make that requirement, i can consider the grf and the makefile separately licensed bundles
11:21:36  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: from a closed-source bundle i can "link to" an open source bundle, just not the other way around
11:22:07  <andythenorth> what was the question?
11:22:26  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: whether using the makefile forces your project to GPL
11:23:09  <andythenorth> there's almost no case law
11:23:14  <andythenorth> so definitive answer hard
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11:23:51  <Eddi|zuHause> which is my point, the initial answer was a "definitive yes", and i find that disputable
11:23:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: CETS python build - clearly e
11:24:00  <andythenorth> yes
11:24:12  <andythenorth> something that uses makefile for convenience
11:24:22  <andythenorth> probably
11:24:26  <andythenorth> but not clear cut
11:25:19  <andythenorth> the makefile framework is a separate project
11:25:24  <andythenorth> the grf is the output from it
11:25:34  <andythenorth> GPL does not attach to output
11:25:43  <Eddi|zuHause> we discussed the CETS build script previously, the answer there was "yes, because significant parts of the script end up in the final grf"
11:26:56  <andythenorth> is the makefile part of the program, or is it a generic tool, from which the program is output?
11:27:04  <Eddi|zuHause> it's similar to glibc ends up in gcc-compiled programs, so they had to attach a special exception clause for that
11:28:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is the question i posed
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11:30:00  <andythenorth> if it's a generic tool, it doesn't matter if it's GPL or not
11:30:09  <andythenorth> except in the specific question of distribution
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11:45:10  <peter1138> and the irony is i wanted to avoid license bullshit
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11:46:03  <Eddi|zuHause> ooooh, he's being so cute when he is naive :)
11:46:20  <peter1138> :P
11:47:06  <peter1138> wasn't there some kerfuffle about the newgrf documentation at some point?
11:50:02  <andythenorth> herfuffle
11:50:38  <andythenorth> herfuffle gets no grfs made :P
11:51:25  <peter1138> herfuffle? what?
11:52:00  <Markk> OpenTTD IRL:
11:52:25  <peter1138> heh
11:52:50  <peter1138> now find a 4-way clover-leaf :S
11:53:39  <peter1138> weird ramp on the carpark
11:54:08  <peter1138> i can't imagine it was taller but partially removed
11:54:43  <Pikka> squeeze a couple more parking spots in on top of the ramp, or something?
11:54:48  <peter1138> possibly
11:55:05  <andythenorth> jump innit
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11:55:22  <SpComb> GTA
11:55:25  <peter1138> heh
11:55:30  <Pikka> modular design somehow
11:55:38  <peter1138> carmageddon!
11:55:45  <andythenorth> stops the snow getting to the ramp below
11:55:52  <andythenorth> snow here
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12:06:40  <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> wasn't there some kerfuffle about the newgrf documentation at some point? <-- yes, it ended up with MB hosting his own private copy, which i'm not sure he keeps in sync with the tt-wiki version
12:07:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Markk: i'm pretty sure that picture was shown here before
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12:13:19  <peter1138> you know what "bugs" me about questionable content?
12:13:42  <peter1138> he doesn't/can't draw aging
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12:14:45  <andythenorth> ?
12:14:58  <andythenorth> url?
12:15:05  <andythenorth> or just the latest one?
12:15:15  <peter1138> any with parental-units
12:15:37  <andythenorth> yeah, don't look old enough
12:15:57  <andythenorth> yeah, the dad character looks like me
12:16:07  <andythenorth> only my kids are knee-high
12:17:39  <andythenorth> and I'm not marrying a boy-toy
12:18:23  <peter1138> dunno who old he is as there's no age :p
12:19:13  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I'm sure of that as well.
12:19:30  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: I've seen that before and could've easily posted it before as well. :D
12:19:38  <peter1138> hmm, and is that a girls-with-slingshots reference today?
12:19:54  <peter1138> yesterday i mean
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12:24:56  <Pinkbeast> Marten's mother used to have lines around her mouth, etc; she's got younger if anything
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12:37:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i got it! we should all nominate OzTrans to the Simuscape Hall of Fame
12:37:52  <andythenorth> TT Hall of Fame
12:37:56  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody has ever caused more drama to the TT community
12:37:56  <peter1138> :-)
12:37:56  <planetmaker> Hell of Fame
12:38:36  <Eddi|zuHause> and we all like drama so much
12:38:38  <peter1138> seems everyone's ignored it so far
12:39:01  <planetmaker> yes, wrong forum section ;-)
12:39:11  <andythenorth> herp, does anyone give a fuck if it's advertising or not?
12:39:19  <Eddi|zuHause> it got more (negative) attention on the german forum
12:39:22  <andythenorth> the thing that I find sad is that it breaks bananas for end user
12:39:34  <andythenorth> 'it' = zero-content grfs
12:39:35  <planetmaker> yes. And that imho makes it require action
12:39:42  <peter1138> we're not talking about that :p
12:39:47  <planetmaker> :-)
12:39:57  <andythenorth> I am now talking abotu that again
12:40:04  <andythenorth> the deal with bananas is that you click 'get content' and you get content
12:40:09  <andythenorth> in game
12:40:09  <andythenorth> no faff
12:40:12  <andythenorth> no need to open a browser
12:40:21  <andythenorth> or learn wtf on your filesystem ottd stores grfs
12:40:27  <andythenorth> or how to rescan
12:40:33  <SpComb> or learn wtf your filesystem is
12:40:39  <andythenorth> or any other crap that users should never have to see, do or think about
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12:40:56  <planetmaker> you summarized it well, andythenorth
12:41:13  <planetmaker> especially as such thing usually won't work, on say, Android or so. While OpenTTD content download does
12:41:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i agree, that this GRF should be removed on "spam/advertising" grounds
12:41:25  <planetmaker> (or so I believe)
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12:42:47  <peter1138> just kick up a load of fuss
12:43:10  <peter1138> or ignore it
12:43:12  <peter1138> i dunno
12:43:26  <peter1138> ignoring seems a good option
12:44:59  <Eddi|zuHause> if they want to advertise, they should pay for it...
12:45:35  <Eddi|zuHause> "normal" bananas users pay for it with the right to publish their contents
12:45:54  <Eddi|zuHause> since they don't publish any content, they should pay through other means
12:46:52  <andythenorth> oops
12:47:00  <andythenorth> I forgot to ignore it
12:48:44  <peter1138> illy atn
12:48:47  <peter1138> illy?
12:48:49  <peter1138> silly
12:49:21  <andythenorth> illy
12:49:25  <andythenorth> make coffee
12:49:30  <andythenorth> I don't
12:49:31  <peter1138> i have
12:49:33  <andythenorth> I drink coffee
12:49:39  <peter1138> drinking it now
12:49:48  <andythenorth> rotgut
12:50:16  <andythenorth> new ship names
12:50:20  <Eddi|zuHause> english only!!
12:50:36  <andythenorth> lots beginning with F it seems
12:52:30  <Eddi|zuHause> the tracking table layout has lots of similarity to my tracking table! i demand copyright! :p
12:52:45  <andythenorth> I'll pay royaltie
12:52:52  <andythenorth> I'm quite generous
12:53:00  <andythenorth> 30% of everything I earn from this grf
12:53:11  <goodger> that seems like a reasonable settlement
12:59:23  <Pikka> andythenorth, argue argue argue :}
12:59:35  <andythenorth> silly me
12:59:39  <andythenorth> dunno wtf I did that
12:59:44  <andythenorth> I should deletey
12:59:49  * andythenorth is making ships
12:59:52  <andythenorth> and having a happy birthday
13:00:02  <Pikka> happy birthday!
13:00:11  <goodger> ^
13:00:49  <peter1138> Pikka, Simutrans-bashing :D
13:00:59  <Pikka> yeah
13:01:02  <Pikka> that's not what I meant, is it?
13:01:05  <peter1138> no
13:01:06  <andythenorth> where is the roll-eyes icon?
13:01:15  <andythenorth> :)
13:01:21  <Pikka> I fix
13:01:22  <andythenorth> Pikka: edity edit
13:01:23  <Pikka> too late!
13:01:38  <welshdragon> :rolleyes:
13:01:54  <Pikka> simuscape, simutrans
13:01:55  <Pikka> same thing!
13:02:01  <andythenorth> pikka pokka
13:03:18  <Pikka> andy wandy
13:03:46  <andythenorth> so anyway
13:03:51  <andythenorth> is Tyloegrund a nice name for a freighter?
13:04:00  * andythenorth is unconvinced
13:04:05  <andythenorth> naming of parts
13:04:25  <Pikka> I dunno
13:04:28  <Pikka> sounds a bit foreign :D
13:04:37  <Pikka> but no umlauts
13:04:53  <andythenorth> dalsfjord ?
13:05:33  <andythenorth> Forsnes
13:05:34  <Pikka> oh
13:05:48  <Pikka> Tylögrund
13:06:04  <Pikka> mit der umlaut, better
13:06:18  <andythenorth> umlaut hurt my brain
13:06:23  <andythenorth> and my unicode handling :P
13:06:32  <andythenorth> Sandholmen Freighter
13:06:41  <peter1138> so naive
13:06:51  <peter1138> naïve even
13:06:55  <peter1138> i'm sure i typed that :S
13:07:27  <__ln__> yes, need to be more coöperative
13:07:34  <peter1138> café?
13:07:41  <peter1138> façade?
13:07:55  <planetmaker> à la carte
13:08:14  <__ln__> nazgûl
13:08:25  <goodger> coöperative is an abomination invented by the new yorker to punish their typesetters
13:08:38  <planetmaker> nazgûl à la carte? sounds... devious ;-)
13:09:27  <andythenorth> Flatholmen Freighter?
13:09:59  <peter1138> Charlotte Brontë
13:10:05  <peter1138> Zoë
13:10:19  <peter1138> yeah, we don't have accents
13:10:34  <andythenorth> Hesnesbregen Freighter :)
13:10:36  <__ln__> btw, why is there a character called Zoë in almost all recent american tv series?
13:10:45  <andythenorth> Hesnesbregen is a nice sound, in my head
13:11:18  <peter1138> jalapeño?
13:11:27  <Pikka> get out
13:12:05  <peter1138> gët õūt
13:12:19  <andythenorth> FÊrder
13:12:28  <andythenorth> do we have the Ê char in game?
13:12:42  <Pikka> ying tong yiddle I po
13:12:49  <__ln__> andythenorth: it's part of latin-1
13:13:53  <Eddi|zuHause> how can you serve a nazgul if you can't kill it?
13:14:25  <Pikka> __ln__, I don't think there is
13:14:38  <Pikka> a character named zoe in almost all recent american tv series
13:14:57  <andythenorth> I don't see one in Dora the Explorer
13:14:59  <Pikka> "almost all" is quite a lot.
13:15:09  <Pikka> and almost certainly includes dora the explorer :)
13:15:19  <__ln__> Pikka: Firefly, House of Cards, others.
13:16:38  <Pikka> that's two
13:16:40  <Eddi|zuHause> "almost all" means "the measure of the set of exceptions is zero"
13:16:45  <Pikka> one of which isn't terribly recent ;)
13:16:56  <peter1138> "almost all" means "almost all that __ln__ watches"
13:17:01  <Pikka> also americans remaking house of cards, sounds terrible
13:17:46  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> do we have the Ê char in game? <-- you can provide missing glyphs in your grf
13:19:41  <V453000> peter1138: how far did the idea with a spec for custom junctions @railtypes get?
13:19:45  <V453000> also morning
13:19:49  <peter1138> spec?
13:19:53  <peter1138> it was coded
13:19:55  <peter1138> there's a patch
13:20:15  <V453000> is it usable yet?
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13:20:59  <peter1138> if you apply the patch, probably. i never tested it cos there's no grf for it
13:21:33  <V453000> I intend to make a grf for it
13:21:56  <peter1138> ok
13:26:03  <andythenorth> see, MB is right again
13:26:23  <andythenorth> he usually is, except when he's wrong
13:26:33  <Eddi|zuHause> in which context now?
13:26:44  <Eddi|zuHause> there are like 5 different discussions here in parallel
13:26:52  <Pikka> stranger things have happened
13:26:59  <andythenorth> bananas discussion
13:27:19  <peter1138> let's add 3d models to openttd
13:27:20  <andythenorth> I like MB, he has character :)
13:27:22  * __ln__ is right even when he's wrong
13:27:28  <andythenorth> peter1138: ok
13:27:31  <andythenorth> saves drawing
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13:27:33  <peter1138> yes
13:27:40  <peter1138> or maybe voxels
13:27:45  <peter1138> or whatever that word was
13:27:59  <peter1138> cubicles
13:29:10  <V453000> I dont even understand how can any software exist without voxels
13:29:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. cubicles it was :p
13:30:12  <andythenorth> openplans
13:30:59  <planetmaker> it breaks for end users MUCH less, if they use the proper grfID for their "advertizement" iGRFs. If properly done, end users won't see them anymore once they have the "full" grf
13:31:26  <planetmaker> So, as done now, it's quite bad
13:31:50  <planetmaker> but as they "just decide" so we may "just decide". Discussion is nothing anyone ever tried
13:32:04  <planetmaker> nor seems interested in. So whatever. Just drama is the interest
13:32:09  <Pikka> I don't see what's wrong with in planetmaker
13:32:13  <Pikka> it's just a grf like any other
13:32:15  <andythenorth> I wouldn't bother with 'us' and 'them' :)
13:32:23  <andythenorth> it's not very useful, in the long run
13:32:27  <planetmaker> Pikka, it spams the NewGRF list of users with double and tripple entries
13:32:34  <andythenorth> there are some silly users who have made some silly grfs
13:32:36  <andythenorth> that much is not new
13:32:42  <planetmaker> If they use the right grfID, then the downloaded full NewGRF will simply be shown instead of the igrf
13:32:53  <Pikka> I don't think that bothers the users who just download and install everything
13:32:54  <planetmaker> thus it's considered a valid "update" to the bananas entry
13:33:10  <planetmaker> I'm not concerned about those
13:33:30  <Pikka> well which "newgrf list" are you concerned about, then?
13:34:41  <planetmaker> Pikka, ingame. For the users which actually get the NewGRFs
13:35:15  <planetmaker> If you got a newer version, then bananas won't give you its version either. IIRC
13:35:53  <andythenorth> I would file it under 'people do silly things'
13:36:01  <andythenorth> unless it's actually breaking savegames
13:36:01  <Pikka> so would I
13:36:51  <andythenorth> "something must be done" <- except not really
13:37:14  <planetmaker> people complain about spam... to *us*
13:37:31  <andythenorth> by email?
13:37:34  <andythenorth> or publicly?
13:37:45  <andythenorth> or by pm?
13:38:10  <planetmaker> in the bug tracker... in the forums...
13:38:24  <andythenorth> so close them as invalid
13:38:25  <V453000> it is breaking savegames obviously, as it uses different IDs
13:38:30  <andythenorth> hmm
13:38:35  <andythenorth> failure demand :P
13:38:44  <andythenorth>
13:39:22  <peter1138> if they used the real grf's grfid then it would break for people who already have the grf but don't want to upgrade to the latest version
13:40:37  <planetmaker> peter1138, it wouldn't. savegames go by md5sum.
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13:40:46  <Pikka> eh
13:40:50  <peter1138> i wouldn't be able to start a new game with it
13:41:05  <peter1138> because i've gone "upgrade all" which is a fairly common use-case
13:41:19  <planetmaker> peter1138, OpenTTD by default only shows the newgrf with the highest action14 version for a newgrf. So it's easy
13:41:20  <peter1138> and thus the latest is the fake grf, not the real grf
13:41:27  <V453000> the real grf would have to be +1 version
13:41:34  <planetmaker> thus what you describe wouldn't happen
13:41:36  <Eddi|zuHause> <V453000> it is breaking savegames obviously, as it uses different IDs <-- yes, so would you go forward and talk to the GRF author to change it?
13:41:48  <V453000> well yeah you would have to make latest the real one
13:41:53  <peter1138> the real grf doesn't have an action 14 i think
13:42:00  <Pikka> planetmaker, I think part of what oztrans's theory was is that he could use the "informational" grf to tell people when there was a new version of the real grf out
13:42:00  <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: I did actually
13:42:05  <planetmaker> that's the author's fault clearly
13:42:10  <peter1138> planetmaker, it's pre-action 14
13:42:16  <V453000> they dont really care
13:42:36  <V453000> OzTrans I did try the same GRFID initially; but found that having different IDs is better and with less hassles. Even if you have both loaded, they don't bite each other.
13:42:37  <Pikka> the old one was, the one on simutransscape isn't
13:42:45  <planetmaker> that'll be even worse, Pikka ...
13:42:46  <peter1138> yeah, i have the old one
13:42:53  <Pikka> anyway
13:43:04  <peter1138> if they used the same grfid, and i'd done "upgrade all" then it would've removed my choice of the working grf
13:43:31  <V453000> ah that way you mean
13:43:33  <Pikka> all the complaints are like those people who ring up to complain about a tv show that they didn't watch, because their newspaper told them it was filth.
13:43:36  <V453000> well there could be same id for version 1.5
13:43:39  <V453000> not for 1.1
13:43:43  <Pikka> no-one's really bothered, people just like complaining
13:44:12  <andythenorth> Pikka: how dare you.  I am morally offended.
13:45:52  <V453000> I think the content should be removed and a rule added to ToS, because this thing does absolutely nothing related to bananas purposes - content availability and also availability for saves with old versions
13:45:57  <V453000> this is just spam
13:46:41  <Pikka> V453000: it's content
13:46:50  <V453000> not really
13:46:53  <Pikka> the fact that it's content that doesn't interest you is neither here nor there
13:46:58  <V453000> it purposedly cant be used in the game
13:47:15  <V453000> it does interest me
13:47:16  <andythenorth> :roll:
13:47:20  <andythenorth> don't add anything to ToS
13:47:23  <Pikka> it can be used in the game
13:47:25  <andythenorth> it's just a non-issue
13:47:29  <Pikka> it just doesn't do much interesting
13:47:30  <andythenorth> it's a valid grf, complies with the spec
13:47:36  <Pikka> just like almost every other grf out there ;)
13:48:13  <V453000> spam
13:48:32  <Pikka> well what exactly would you add to the ToS?
13:48:35  <planetmaker> Pikka, it defies and sabotages the purpose of bananas. Willfully.
13:49:01  <V453000> ^
13:49:05  <andythenorth> yes, but so what
13:49:10  <andythenorth> what harm is done?
13:49:16  <Pikka> it defies and sabotages the purpose of bananas
13:49:29  <Pikka> in the same way as a small, slightly over-ripe grape blocks a major arterial road
13:49:34  <Eddi|zuHause> the "harm" is that "we" have to discuss it
13:49:46  <andythenorth> even worse if we have to rewrite ToS
13:49:54  <andythenorth> and have all contributors accept new terms
13:49:56  <Pikka> let's ban grapes
13:50:02  <andythenorth> loads of BS for zero real gain
13:50:42  <planetmaker> <Eddi|zuHause> the "harm" is that "we" have to discuss it <-- that
13:50:42  <V453000> well, you dont need to rewrite ToS if there is a gentleman agreement that this shit doesnt get created :P
13:50:56  <Pikka> add it to the ToS, quick
13:51:13  *** mode/#openttd [+m] by peter1138
13:51:15  <peter1138> no you don't have to discuss it
13:51:23  *** mode/#openttd [-m] by peter1138
13:51:25  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
13:51:26  <V453000> I mean seriously, if someone uses a free service like devzone or bananas, they give something back. For devzone open license, for bananas the content. This is only being abused as advertisement space
13:52:09  <V453000> if they so hate bananas to refuse adding real content, let them hate it
13:52:11  <andythenorth> we should modify the WTFPL
13:52:13  <andythenorth>
13:52:20  <Eddi|zuHause> if the ToS already forbids spam, and (some) operators of bananas judge this as spam, then no change of the ToS is needed
13:52:22  <andythenorth> add a second clause.  1) Don't break the law
13:52:24  <V453000> but making such disgusting workarounds like this which dont even technically work well is just wrong to me
13:52:38  <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: :)
13:52:44  <Pikka> what are you going to do about it, V453000?
13:52:46  <Pikka> let it go :)
13:52:58  <V453000> me? I cant do much but I will say my opinion which is what I do
13:53:08  <Eddi|zuHause> MB's argument of "it's a valid NewGRF" does not go very far... SPAM mails are valid e-mails
13:53:20  <V453000> ^
13:55:50  <lugo> so what's wrong with treating it like spam which got through the filter (or gentlemens agreement) and just ignore it?
13:56:13  <andythenorth> nothing
13:56:19  <andythenorth> we just can't seem to agree on that
13:57:33  * Pikka can
13:59:18  <Pikka> the alternative is that bananas becomes a moderated service, which I can't see being good for anyone.  and even if it did become that, I don't think this file should be removed. :)
14:00:00  <V453000> not like it wasnt moderated when mistress sac demanded removal of her trees
14:00:09  <Pikka> if we're removing content that doesn't work properly or breaks the game, we can start with "OpenTTD Plus" and then move on to NARS2. ;)
14:00:26  <Pikka> copyright infringements are different
14:01:19  <V453000> she put it there herself?
14:01:32  <V453000> also this isnt breaking the game but spamming bananas
14:01:38  <andythenorth> shrug
14:01:45  * Pikka also
14:01:52  <andythenorth> Pikka pops: 2/3 of Squid Ate FISH
14:02:01  <andythenorth> I need some people who draw next
14:02:03  <V453000> idk how bananas or nars2 breaks the game either but that is off topic :)
14:02:11  <andythenorth> what are they called?  'Artists' or somethign
14:02:15  <Pikka> 2/3 squid can't be wrong
14:02:16  <andythenorth> V453000: draw me some ships?
14:02:32  <andythenorth> Pikka: see what I did?  Not loads of ships all same size
14:02:32  <V453000> im actually drawing my own ships andy
14:02:38  <Pikka> I like it
14:02:46  <Pikka> moar sails though
14:03:03  <andythenorth> hmmm
14:03:05  <andythenorth> I'll certainly consider that
14:03:11  <Pikka> psh, you won't
14:03:52  <andythenorth> I considered it
14:03:57  <V453000> behold
14:04:25  <Pikka> those aren't ships
14:04:33  <V453000> oh they are :D
14:05:05  <Pikka> they're railways disguised as water, but they're not ships
14:05:22  <MNIM> andythenorth: I take it you still need to order ID by intro date?
14:05:28  <V453000> aaand these railways can have ships on them
14:05:31  <V453000> train ships anyway
14:05:44  <andythenorth> MNIM?
14:05:51  <MNIM> in SQUID
14:06:03  <andythenorth> you want order by intro date?  Just order that in the menu
14:06:14  <andythenorth> I am ordering IDs by 'it looks pleasing to andythenorth'
14:06:25  <MNIM> silly andy
14:06:31  <V453000> andythenorth: you could actually draw some ships for me
14:06:36  <V453000> now we are talking
14:06:42  <andythenorth> ho ho no
14:07:03  <V453000> how surprising!!
14:07:07  <V453000> :(
14:07:08  * V453000 sad
14:12:19  <andythenorth> has anyone's favourite ship gone missing in that Squid screenie above? o_O
14:14:04  <V453000> did the tt-forums BK discussion just get removed?
14:14:10  <Pikka> I just split it
14:14:26  <Pikka> if planetmaker wants the discussion, he can have it, it's now in general openttd ;}
14:14:48  <V453000> valid name
14:14:49  <peter1138> no office
14:14:54  <peter1138> no offence
14:15:02  <peter1138> but moving it there was silly
14:15:09  <Pikka> it's a silly discussion
14:15:39  <andythenorth> off topic?
14:15:48  <Pikka> and nothing to do with newgrf development
14:15:49  <Pikka> if the openttd moderators want to rename it, lock it, whatever, they should.
14:15:52  <planetmaker> what, Pikka ?
14:16:09  <planetmaker> the one in Transport Tycoon? Doesn't belong in OpenTTD
14:16:20  <Pikka>
14:17:31  <planetmaker> why did you do that for all the gods and devils out there?
14:17:57  <Pikka> because if I locked it people would whinge at me
14:18:06  <Pikka> instead, I pass the buck :)
14:18:09  <planetmaker> so... and if I just move it back?
14:18:30  <planetmaker> really, what's the point Pikka?
14:18:45  <peter1138> no, not the transport tycoon one
14:18:56  <Pikka> I wanted to split it
14:19:06  <Pikka> and this conversation has nothing to do with newgrf development
14:19:15  <Pikka> if you can think of a better place than general openttd, move it.
14:19:21  <planetmaker> spam bin
14:19:30  <Pikka> go ahead
14:19:45  <planetmaker> and it's all about newgrf development
14:19:55  <Pikka> no it's not, it's about what goes on bananas
14:20:02  <peter1138> technically it's about newgrf releases ;)
14:20:14  <andythenorth> thread tennis
14:20:19  <Pikka> it's an openttd issue, not a newgrf one
14:20:20  * andythenorth goes for lunch
14:20:23  <andythenorth> haz fun
14:20:28  <Pikka> enjoy, andy
14:20:33  <andythenorth> thanks :)
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14:22:50  <planetmaker> this all sucks big time
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14:24:40  <Pikka> did I break planetmaker? D:
14:25:17  <V453000> well you declare ignoring stuff and then you do weird stuff, not too surprising to me
14:26:39  <peter1138> Pikka, first 3 posts are not related
14:26:53  <Pikka> well, context or something
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14:27:42  <peter1138> they're 6 months old
14:27:55  <Pikka> I split from where the conversation stopped being about the newgrf and started being about bananas, I didn't look at the dates
14:28:07  <Pikka> I don't think it matters enough to fix?
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14:28:47  <Pikka> ameecher's link just goes back to the first post of the old thread
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14:35:20  <Eddi|zuHause>
14:41:38  <peter1138> yes
14:48:26  <peter1138>
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14:54:29  <Eddi|zuHause> that comparison isn't exactly new :)
15:06:43  <Flygon> Yknow you're playing Civilization correctly when there's so many cities
15:06:48  <Flygon> It overflows into Australian names
15:28:42  <Flygon> Annnnd I overflowed the name chart completely
15:30:19  * Pinkbeast plays small maps and abhors any game where I don't know which city is which immediately, so, er...
15:31:34  <Flygon> Ah, I keep track easily enough
15:31:50  <Flygon> Trying out this world map that's over 32767 total squares
15:32:17  <peter1138> small then
15:32:24  <peter1138> oh, civ, not ottd
15:33:41  <Flygon> Oh...
15:33:42  <Flygon> Oh no
15:33:42  <kormer> Does anyone here now why I'd get an error "unknown debug level ai=5" when doing openttd.exe -d ai=5?
15:33:51  <Flygon> The AI used the same overflow chart
15:33:56  <Flygon> Now they have cities that share names with mine
15:34:01  <peter1138> uheheh
15:34:47  <Pinkbeast> I raise an eyebrow whenever Istanbul and Constantinople appear on the same map
15:35:00  <peter1138> kormer, kormer because "ai" isn't a valid debug thing
15:35:27  <peter1138> might be script you're looking for, dunno though
15:35:34  <kormer> am I doing it wrong then?  I copied from here:
15:36:28  <peter1138> it's probably out of date
15:37:26  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: Took me a few seconds, hahaha
15:38:04  <kormer> I'm trying to get the ai/gs debug console copied to a file outside of openttd, is there another way of going about that?
15:41:43  <peter1138> script
15:41:49  <peter1138> openttd -d script=5
15:42:29  <kormer> thanks
15:42:38  <kormer> I'll try that and make a note in the wiki
15:44:45  <kormer> IT WORKED!  Thanks.  Multiplayer league tables here we come.
15:45:42  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: On the upside. 7 move Ironclads. These buggers move faster than any ship that could possibly exist in OpenTTD. :B
15:46:06  <peter1138> pfft
15:46:14  <peter1138> fast ships smell in ottd
15:46:21  <peter1138> instant stoppage!
15:46:55  <Flygon> Then use Ironclads.
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15:49:41  <Pinkbeast> I infer you're in crazy-mod land
15:51:49  <peter1138> V453000, lol @ railships
16:00:35  <V453000> :)
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17:04:03  <andythenorth> fast pax ferry 300 pax / non-bulk cargos: hovercraft or cat?
17:04:07  <andythenorth> there are already a few cats
17:04:11  <andythenorth> only one hovercraft
17:04:17  <andythenorth> hovercraft are super awesome, right?
17:05:29  <V453000> definitely cats
17:05:32  <V453000> nothing else but cats
17:06:14  <andythenorth> because..?
17:07:09  <V453000> because cats
17:07:11  <V453000> meow
17:07:12  <V453000> purr
17:07:13  <V453000> fur
17:07:16  <V453000> and stuff
17:07:49  <andythenorth> silly old V453000
17:08:15  <V453000> no fur? :(
17:08:29  <andythenorth> furry ship
17:08:35  <V453000> YES
17:08:49  <V453000> see, you are getting the idea of awesome
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17:12:00  <V453000> like a furball with eyes
17:12:03  <V453000> unmatched awesomeness
17:13:38  <V453000>
17:17:44  * MNIM chases it like an angry klingon
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17:27:31  <__ln__>
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17:56:58  <Terkhen> hello
17:57:05  <andythenorth> hi hi Terkhen
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18:10:59  <peter1138> XeryusTC, what does simutrans have to do with anything?
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18:15:31  <V453000> mixing up simutrans and simuscape
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18:38:15  <andythenorth> "Endeavour Rig Supply Fast Catamaran"
18:38:21  <andythenorth> Rig Supply Fast Catamaran is a ship type in Squid
18:38:26  <andythenorth> bit long eh?
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18:38:38  <andythenorth> Utlity Catamaran?
18:38:42  <andythenorth> Catamaran Workboat?
18:39:52  <Eddi|zuHause> as long as the ship sprites? :p
18:40:17  <andythenorth> at least
18:43:35  <NGC3982>
18:43:40  <NGC3982> Happy pre-valentines day.
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19:12:41  <Alberth> hi hi
19:13:11  <andythenorth> hi Alberth
19:15:04  <andythenorth> squid
19:15:30  <andythenorth> maybe all good grfs should fit the buy menu into 800x600 screenie o_O
19:15:43  <peter1138> no
19:16:13  <andythenorth> spoilsport
19:17:19  <andythenorth> where's your sense of arbitrary rule making?
19:17:39  <peter1138> i play at 640x480
19:18:00  <__ln__> no you don't
19:18:03  <andythenorth> he might
19:18:06  <andythenorth> I used to
19:18:12  <andythenorth> it's much more pleasant
19:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause> how come your pink placeholder ferries are at totally different offsets?
19:18:26  <andythenorth> hysterical raisins
19:18:43  <andythenorth> to do with copying and pasting in the CMS that drives the set config
19:19:11  <andythenorth> 640x480 makes the GUI way nicer to use
19:19:20  <andythenorth> zoom is good and all, but the GUI doesn't zoom :P
19:20:38  <Eddi|zuHause> use biggui
19:21:25  <Eddi|zuHause> or downgrade to 0.5-ish and use Ctrl+D :p
19:23:05  <andythenorth> I need to downgrade OS X
19:23:13  <andythenorth> this is the usual no mac dev issue :)
19:23:25  <andythenorth> o_O I could run it in virtual box?
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19:24:17  <Eddi|zuHause> so, who tripped over the cable?
19:24:51  <frosch123> a big plug blocked the only left socket for the coffee machine
19:25:41  <andythenorth> can someone unplug Dave W?
19:25:58  <frosch123> oh yeah, i would also be interested in that
19:26:00  <andythenorth> I find him odd
19:26:12  <andythenorth> what is he useful for?
19:26:31  <andythenorth> his mission seems to be somewhat towards being disliked
19:26:34  <andythenorth> which is odd
19:27:27  <Eddi|zuHause> nominate him for the simuscape hall of fame :)
19:28:38  <andythenorth> this is a good call
19:28:42  <andythenorth> TT hall of fame /s
19:28:59  <andythenorth> after a split, my client is insanely slow to render messages
19:29:02  <andythenorth> is that just me?
19:29:12  <peter1138> yes
19:29:22  <andythenorth> stupid client
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19:33:57  <planetmaker> actually Dave W is the first to call the situation by the name ;-)
19:35:30  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24990 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2013-02-13 18:45:20 UTC)
19:35:31  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:35:32  <DorpsGek> czech - 36 changes by greem
19:35:33  <DorpsGek> greek - 24 changes by Evropi
19:35:34  <DorpsGek> japanese - 45 changes by Aknuth
19:35:35  <DorpsGek> vietnamese - 37 changes by myquartz
19:36:36  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you think OzTrans is trolling? :)
19:36:50  <andythenorth> or Kamnet?
19:36:57  <andythenorth> it's quite a funny troll if so
19:37:39  <planetmaker> Oz is definitely trolling
19:37:56  <planetmaker> for as long as I can remember
19:38:15  <andythenorth> he gets good troll points
19:38:27  <andythenorth> it's quite well crafted and executed if so
19:38:43  <andythenorth> wonder if kamnet is in on the gag
19:38:52  <andythenorth> or is a hapless victim? o_O
19:38:57  <andythenorth> biab
19:38:58  <andythenorth> pub
19:39:00  <planetmaker> "on the gag"?
19:39:11  <andythenorth> informed participant
19:39:14  <andythenorth> or fall guy
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19:40:48  <Wolf01> hello o/
19:40:52  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
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19:48:53  <planetmaker> hello Wolf01
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20:07:21  <Alberth> is there a list which newgrf string commands may be used for plural and/or gender?
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20:30:39  <__ln__>
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20:51:26  <andythenorth> Rubidium: nice reply, but I don't get the issue :)  !!BK Tunnels grf works exactly as intended.  Players can install it no problem.
20:55:56  <Rubidium> intended by who?
20:56:37  <andythenorth> well
20:56:44  <Rubidium> imagine someone draws some very nice ships, and then puts a NewGRF with !!<name of set> on bananas which only contains some text
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20:56:47  <andythenorth> or just tell OzTrans he's being a dick and hide the content
20:56:53  <andythenorth> one or the other
20:57:16  <andythenorth> it's not like arguments with OzTrans are a new thing
20:57:18  <Rubidium> now, some users sees a screenshot, asks what GRF it is and it told it is <name of set>
20:57:40  <Rubidium> user goes to bananas, selects !!<name of set> (the only one showing with he filter)
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20:58:00  <Rubidium> downloads it, installs it, and is annoyed that the NewGRF does not work (no new ships)
20:58:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i should put a GRF on bananas: "i have a nice grf, but you cannot have it!"
20:58:11  <andythenorth> [shrug]
20:58:19  <andythenorth> like pikka said, lots of newgrfs don't really work
20:58:26  <andythenorth> it's not new to have crappy content on bananas
20:58:33  <andythenorth> nor is it new to have falling outs with OzTrans
20:58:35  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: make lots of nice screen shots and post them everywhere!!
20:58:50  <Eddi|zuHause> and then "my GRF is better than MBs and Pikkas combined, but you can still not have it"
20:58:54  <Rubidium> andythenorth: crappy content != effectively no content
20:59:21  <andythenorth> did you remove it already then? :)
20:59:48  <Rubidium> I won't remove it, I'll just make it invisible
20:59:52  <Kjetil> oztrans ?
20:59:53  <andythenorth> \o/
21:00:18  <andythenorth> maybe Apple examples aren't the best here, but there *is* a sound effect on the mac called sosumi
21:00:40  <andythenorth> which relates to "Apple Records had an injunction preventing Apple Computer making devices with playback capability"
21:01:58  <andythenorth> arsing about with the ToS is a legal headache, with no purpose, as nothing community related is coming to court anyway
21:02:18  <andythenorth> there might be some forum moaning, then just lock the thread
21:03:39  <Kjetil> just put "This is not a democracy in the ToS"
21:04:03  <SpComb> I doubt ToS is a legal anything much
21:04:59  <SpComb> but I guess the "educate grf authors about how bananas works" angle has already been tried?
21:05:26  <Rubidium> yeah
21:05:52  <Rubidium> issue is that they want to delete the GRF, and if it is up to them, deleting it from bananas triggers deleting it from the user's computer as well
21:07:27  <andythenorth> well that's not how it works
21:07:31  <andythenorth> so the issue can be closed: invalid
21:07:46  <andythenorth> like you said, bananas makes a promise / policy about savegames
21:08:05  <andythenorth> it's not a fucking DRM system
21:08:28  <andythenorth> content I've got doesn't stop working because 'you' decide (unless you - Rubidium decide :P )
21:08:34  <Rubidium> and since they don't want their actual content on it, but they "need" it to be visible in bananas they are trying to do tricks
21:08:42  <andythenorth> I don't mind DRM when I know what I'm getting into, i.e. iTunes
21:09:00  <andythenorth> but that's not OpenTTD
21:09:16  <Kjetil> *mumbles something about Open*
21:09:19  <Rubidium> even so, if we add it to OpenTTD, then the next day someone will post binaries with that (mis)feature removed
21:09:48  <andythenorth> I quite like the hax they've done though.  Creative :)
21:11:01  <andythenorth> still
21:11:07  <andythenorth> just hide it
21:11:11  <Eddi|zuHause> not everything that is creative is a benefit in the long term
21:11:19  <andythenorth> OzTrans doesn't give a fuck about community, he's shown that over and over again
21:11:23  <andythenorth> so bin him
21:11:23  <Alberth> imho there are far better ways to spend your time
21:11:39  <andythenorth> whereas this otherwise escalates into a stupid 'vs. Simuscape issue'
21:11:53  <andythenorth> which makes SAC sad, because blatantly she really wants everyone to get along nicely
21:12:08  <andythenorth> and makes me bored, only not bored enough to ignore it :P
21:12:52  <andythenorth> I wonder if SAC has accidentally landed herself the worst possible people from a community perspective
21:13:16  <frosch123> andythenorth: is the pink ship some kind of dummy/placeholder sprite?
21:13:27  <andythenorth> she wants somewhere nice and safe and friendly, and has at least one person who has managed to alienate nearly everyone
21:13:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: no it's a new style I'm trying :)
21:13:45  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i sure hope so :p
21:14:14  <frosch123> well, you can never be sure about andy :)
21:14:44  <Eddi|zuHause> you have a point there...
21:14:55  <frosch123> the little cumbrae freighter looks nice
21:15:03  <andythenorth> I am proud of that one
21:15:18  <andythenorth> it's efficient on pixel use
21:15:19  <frosch123> it's really "little" :)
21:15:23  <andythenorth> reduces CPU time
21:24:07  <peter1138> hmm
21:24:16  <peter1138> cucumber freighter
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21:25:37  <Superuser> hello again
21:26:14  <__ln__> you again
21:26:29  <Superuser> STR_TIMETABLE_EXPECTED_TOOLTIP: '{BLACK}Switch between expected and schedule'
21:26:39  <Superuser> hmm... shouldn't it be scheduled? ;)
21:26:49  <Superuser> (note the past tense)
21:28:47  <andythenorth> peter1138:
21:29:00  <Superuser> can 'v' (version) be longer by, ooh... 5 characters? :)
21:30:14  <Superuser> ^ THAT IS A SERIOUS QUESTION BY THE WAY ^
21:30:25  <frosch123> and i don't understand it
21:31:49  <Superuser> Where does this show up? is it okay to make the string a bit longer
21:32:08  <Superuser> also, STR_TIMETABLE_EXPECTED_TOOLTIP should have the English string corrected
21:32:47  <Superuser> frosch123??
21:32:53  <frosch123> <- i believe it is the text on the left panel
21:34:23  <Superuser> dang, where might that be
21:34:34  <frosch123> you need to enable the ai developer tools
21:34:37  <Superuser> I don't indulge much in AI debugging...
21:34:49  <Superuser> well, to save time - do YOU think there is enough space?
21:35:13  <frosch123> there is even the ai name, and windows generally resize
21:35:25  <Alberth>  <-- example, Superuser
21:35:45  <Superuser> egg-celent
21:35:46  <Alberth> ie AIAI(v87)
21:35:53  <andythenorth> peter1138: can't do a cucumber freighter, there is no lighthouse of that name :P
21:35:59  <andythenorth> I could do a cucumber cargo
21:36:06  <andythenorth> then it would be a cucumber freighter
21:36:16  <andythenorth> it could go to a cucumber sandwich factory
21:36:26  <Alberth> make a FARM newgrf :)
21:36:27  <andythenorth> which could be delivered to 'posh houses'
21:36:36  <andythenorth> hmm
21:36:50  <andythenorth> openttd does not sufficiently reflect our modern class-based society
21:38:55  <Kjetil> Also the world is not flat...
21:40:09  <Superuser> openttd has hills :)
21:40:14  <Superuser> and the sea
21:40:31  <Kjetil> the sea at the edge of the world ? :P
21:42:17  <Alberth> otherwise my expensive trains would drive off the world!!
21:44:48  <MNIM> actually
21:45:10  <MNIM> what does OTTD do when you force a train to the end of the world?
21:45:12  * MNIM tests
21:45:36  <V453000> is the !! WTF hidden yet? I can still see it
21:47:07  <frosch123> MNIM: the train is cloned; the real train is send to a train heaven, while a fake one remains in your game
21:47:24  <frosch123> don't let the fake train fool you
21:48:07  <MNIM> awww. it just stops and returns
21:48:09  <MNIM> shame.
21:48:24  <MNIM> it would have been fun to have it as some freaky easter egg disaster or something like that
21:48:50  <frosch123> that happens only on some tiles
21:48:52  <frosch123> try harder
21:53:56  <Kjetil> easter egg disaster like: "You discovered america ?"
22:00:44  <frosch123> there are easter egg vehicles advertising games of which the successor game has already been released
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22:31:30  <Supercheese> andy, rather than purely axing all the previous FISH ships, perhaps a parameter to enable "extended version"? Or are the new ship stats too conflict-ish?
22:31:39  <Supercheese> all/most/some
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22:32:18  <LordAro> heyo all
22:32:28  <LordAro> simuscape being annoying again?
22:32:36  <Supercheese> it's never not
22:33:02  <Alberth> hi LordAro
22:33:08  <Alberth> and good night :)
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22:35:36  <LordAro> lol
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22:37:55  <planetmaker> hi LordAro :-)
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22:39:27  <LordAro> hey planetmaker
22:43:37  <andythenorth> Supercheese: mostly I'm not doing that for the same reason pikka isn't
22:43:50  <andythenorth> it requires work by me :P
22:43:57  <andythenorth> for questionable benefit
22:44:11  <andythenorth> which reduces my ability to release nice newgrfs
22:47:59  <Supercheese> Well, I predict I'll like newfish very much, so it should be good :)
22:50:26  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:52:42  <frosch123> LordAro: i explained the feature now in detail on the forums
22:52:47  <frosch123> so, you can give it another try :p
22:56:19  <Supercheese> Ooooh
22:56:24  <Supercheese> Push-pull :D
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22:58:25  <frosch123> yeah, the NewGRF made the livestock go totally NUTS and acquire driving licenses
22:58:39  <frosch123> i blame V453000 for that
22:58:47  <Supercheese> :D
22:59:00  <frosch123> V453000: see what happens with livestock if they go at higher speeds
22:59:02  <V453000> wat
22:59:03  <Supercheese> Surely you've heard of cattle driving ;)
22:59:43  <V453000> nothing but I wanted to make their eyes get larger with higher speed
22:59:54  <Terkhen> good night
23:00:13  <andythenorth> hmm
23:00:21  <andythenorth> nah
23:00:28  <andythenorth> some posts are better not written :)
23:01:13  <andythenorth> frosch123: that is a nice looking patch :)
23:01:21  <andythenorth> should I do a train grf?
23:01:25  <frosch123> i did not post any patch?
23:01:31  <frosch123> :p
23:02:24  <andythenorth> there is a png
23:02:32  <andythenorth> I would read code? :P
23:02:38  <andythenorth> nah, pictures are better
23:03:04  <Supercheese> .pngs of code?
23:03:48  <andythenorth> "output"
23:04:02  <andythenorth> I did plan to implement HEQS as trains
23:04:04  <andythenorth> with a new railtype
23:04:25  <andythenorth> 'plan' is a word not to interpret too literally
23:08:52  <Supercheese> "think about briefly" perhaps
23:09:33  <andythenorth> "amuse myself with"
23:09:40  <andythenorth> Squid might get cargo sprites
23:09:59  <andythenorth> if I cab
23:10:02  <andythenorth> cab?
23:10:03  <andythenorth> cba
23:10:18  <NGC3982>
23:10:29  <andythenorth> is it worth showing cargo in ships if it's only seen whilst loading?
23:10:46  <Supercheese> Freight barges are uncovered
23:10:49  <Supercheese> worth showing cargo there
23:11:07  <Supercheese> Most other cases, not as much
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23:27:33  <Superuser>
23:27:35  <Superuser> I lol'd
23:27:47  <Superuser> isn't this always going to print the 'empty translations' message by the way?
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23:29:51  <andythenorth> ho ho
23:29:55  <andythenorth> "Fast Ferry"
23:29:59  <andythenorth> "Fast Supply Vessel"
23:30:09  <andythenorth> but "Hovercraft" instead of "Fast Hovercraft"
23:30:14  <andythenorth> words
23:30:21  <Supercheese> methinks "Hovercraft" implies "fast"
23:30:32  <andythenorth> maybe
23:30:34  <andythenorth> anyway, bedtime
23:30:37  <andythenorth> bye
23:30:38  <Supercheese> I'm sure there are slow hovercraft, but less frequent than the fast variety
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23:30:58  <peter1138> mmm push-pull
23:31:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. please.
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23:39:13  <Superuser> : '{WHITE}{STRING} readme of {STRING}'
23:39:26  <Superuser> are you intentionally trying to make strings untranslatable
23:41:17  <planetmaker> we're intentionally trying to keep the amount of needed strings low. Thus of required repetitive translations
23:42:03  <Superuser> talking of which, where is this actually printed?
23:42:13  <Superuser> it's in a whole series of strings I can't find
23:43:26  <Superuser> Anyone?
23:43:29  <planetmaker> whereever readmes need displaying...
23:43:36  <Zuu> I suspect this one is printed in the window caption of the window that displays the readme of Ais GSs NewGrfs etc.
23:44:40  <Zuu> Whenever I wonder where a string is used and I cannot understand that from the string name, I copy the full STR_.. name and make a global search for that in the entire source code.
23:44:49  <planetmaker> piece of advice, Superuser : your tone makes me hesitant to reply...
23:45:06  <Superuser> That being?
23:45:31  <Superuser> I like to append 'Anyone?' and similar things to my queries so it is made clear that I'm asking questions I expect answered.
23:45:50  <Superuser> That is an unfortunate part of the culture of idling on IRC :(
23:46:34  <Zuu> Allow a bit more than a minute for someone to type an answer.
23:48:43  <planetmaker> are you intentionally trying to make strings untranslatable <-- also sets the entry tone for the conversation. besides the impatience shown in "requesting" answers
23:49:46  <Superuser> Of course. The work has to be done by someone.
23:52:17  <planetmaker> and the default assumption is that it's a pack of evil sadists who just invented the system to annoy you?
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