Log for #openttd on 18th March 2013:
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00:00:56  <Core_Xii> is there an overview of how NewGRF work? I'm not at all clear how they integrate with the game. they consist of callbacks or something?
00:03:02  <Supercheese> Hmm
00:03:23  <Supercheese> Well, the NewGRF technical discussion has a lot of stuff
00:03:32  <Supercheese> nothing particularly condensed for easy reading
00:04:04  <Core_Xii> is it like data definition, like a markup language, that OpenTTD reads when it needs to, or more like an interpreted programming language?
00:04:26  <Supercheese> They're like add-ons
00:04:34  <Supercheese> Firefox extensions, I guess are somewhat analogous
00:04:37  <glx> it's a mix of data definition and interpreted language
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00:04:52  <Supercheese> Firefox/Chrome/your favorite browser add-ons
00:05:14  <Core_Xii> ok. so OTTD calls some parts of the NGRF when it does stuff, like generates an industry?
00:05:44  <Supercheese> OTTD loads selected NewGRFs on game start, and those become an integral part of that game (.sav game)
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00:06:02  <Core_Xii> how does currency conversion work?
00:06:20  <glx> fixed rate
00:06:21  <Supercheese> Well, I think the GBP is 2x the USD
00:06:27  <Supercheese> which is not very realistic :P
00:06:37  <glx> and everything is in GBP internally :)
00:06:40  <Supercheese> but yeah, fixed it seems
00:06:52  <Core_Xii> OTTD has an internal currency, right? the same that's exposed to AIs? then the UI converts it for display?
00:07:27  <Core_Xii> I guess you answered those
00:07:29  <Supercheese> as glx said, internal units are the same as the displayed GBP
00:07:53  <Core_Xii> is there any currency with exchange rate less than 1 compared to GBP?
00:07:59  <Supercheese> although I'm taking his word for that, I haven't checked myself :P
00:08:18  <Core_Xii> and if so, how does that currency handle amounts less than 1 GBP?
00:08:20  <glx> only integer
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00:34:23  <Core_Xii> can industries change appearance based on whether they're subsidized?
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00:44:59  <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of
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00:51:41  <glx> it should be doable by abusing animation frames
00:52:15  <Core_Xii> glx: which thing should be doable?
00:52:19  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: how would an industry learn that it's target of a subsidy?
00:52:33  <Core_Xii> I don't know, callback
00:52:47  <Eddi|zuHause> (unless he meant it's funded by a player)
00:53:05  <Core_Xii> no, meant literal subsidies
00:53:49  <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, i don't recall ever seeing this information being exposed to newgrfs
00:54:19  <glx> hmm indeed it's not available
00:55:22  <Core_Xii> how does an industry tile decide on its sprite? I don't think I spotted this info on NML:Industries
00:56:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Core_Xii: all items decide its sprites upon the "default" callback in the gaphics section
00:56:17  <Core_Xii> oh... industry property.... layouts? Tilelayout
00:56:18  <Eddi|zuHause> *their
00:56:49  <Eddi|zuHause> there are "spritelayouts" and such, but i never dealt with those
00:57:23  <Core_Xii> ahh yes I see, default industry tile callback
00:57:40  <Core_Xii> what's the "Sprite layout" return type?
00:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause> a spriteset
00:59:16  <Core_Xii> can an industry tile dynamically compose its appearance from multiple overlapping sprites?
00:59:32  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
00:59:46  <Core_Xii> so e.g. overlay fences depending on adjacent tiles
00:59:53  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
01:00:33  <Eddi|zuHause> concerning fences, you might want to check out the "OpenGFX+Landscape" GRF as an example, it has grassland with fences
01:00:52  <Eddi|zuHause> (as objects, but the graphics part should be similar)
01:45:08  <Core_Xii> is there any way to affect cargo payment rate based on which industry it's delivered to?
01:45:32  <Core_Xii> i.e. have two different industries accepting the same cargo, but with differing payment rates
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01:46:12  <Core_Xii> can an industry accept AND produce the SAME cargo?
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01:56:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, e.g. the bank in the default industries
01:57:08  <Core_Xii> oh yea. cargo tracks where it came from, so you can't just transport it right back to its source, correct?
01:58:04  <Eddi|zuHause> depends-ish
01:58:18  <Eddi|zuHause> it only tracks which station it was loaded from
01:58:38  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can't unload it at the same station
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01:58:59  <Core_Xii> so you could have two stations at the same bank, transporting valuables from one to the other? :P
01:59:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember reading something about a minimum distance travelled, or you wouldn't get paid, but i have never tested thaqt
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05:44:56  <Supercheese> GRFcrawker borked
05:45:00  <Supercheese> crawler*
05:53:40  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25105 /branches/1.3 (7 files in 5 dirs) (2013-03-18 05:53:35 UTC)
05:53:41  <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Prepare: for 1.3.0-RC3
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06:00:19  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25106 tags/1.3.0-RC3/ (2013-03-18 06:00:14 UTC)
06:00:20  <DorpsGek> -Release: 1.3.0-RC3
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06:18:11  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25107 /trunk (config.lib (2013-03-18 06:18:06 UTC)
06:18:12  <DorpsGek> -Change: be slightly more lenient with trying to detect a subversion repository in case someone has a sparse tags checkout. In that case the .svn folder misses from the $ROOT_DIR because it is in the $ROOT_DIR/.. (i.e. tags) folder
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06:40:26  <Terkhen> good morning
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06:58:57  <Bonez305> Hi
06:59:32  <Bonez305> anyone run a debian server ?
07:04:19  <Bonez305> If having dificulties locating where the openttd file was installed
07:11:08  <Supercheese> good night
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07:21:53  <dihedral> good morning
07:22:34  <Twofish> 'morning
07:22:40  <Twofish> moooonday :/
07:23:18  <Twofish> Seem to come before I realise that the week end has started...
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08:27:26  <SpyroTheDragon> Hello all! Sorrry for my so-so english. I'm learning for compilation OpenTTD in Visual Studio 2010 Express. In Wiki there is a text that I must load open_vs90.sln. But what difference between this and open_vs100.sln?
08:28:14  <TinoDidriksen> vs90 is VS 2008
08:28:34  <TinoDidriksen> I'd expect you should use vs100 since that's the VS 2010 version number.
08:30:27  <SpyroTheDragon> ou, thanks, it's done :)
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08:37:56  <V453000> I broke openttd? :(
08:41:06  <Bonez305> Hey everyone !
08:44:34  <SpyroTheDragon> hey
08:51:10  <SpyroTheDragon> guys! After compilation OpenTTD in VS2010 where I can find my game (.exe)?
08:51:17  <V453000> another strange thing: NUTS adds an universal rail. I have defined that railtype as UNIV with number ID of 15. Now I added "WETRails", I gave them ID 12 and they are put before univrail in the code. When I update from the old newGRF to the new, univ rail is changed to WETRails, even though the IDs should be taking care of that? :(
08:55:41  <V453000> swapping them around in the code solves it, but wtf :o
08:56:08  <V453000> of course that also causes the WETR to be below UNIV in the railtype list, which is ugly :(
08:56:28  <V453000> do the railtype numeric IDs have any effect?
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09:06:44  <V453000> guess I could use the railtype sorting, but still a weird thing
09:13:05  <planetmaker> moin
09:13:23  <V453000> hai pm
09:13:30  <V453000> everything is breaking here :(
09:20:28  <planetmaker> just saw that... not good
09:20:37  <planetmaker> but good that you find it ;-)
09:20:54  <planetmaker> though technically, changing the NewGRF on a running game might have that effect, so that might not be an actual bug
09:20:58  <V453000> :p drawing NINE loading stages makes you investigate :D
09:21:11  <planetmaker> the other one... very strange. But there's some issues i nthat code as of late
09:21:15  <V453000> I guess, but what is the numeric railtype ID for then?
09:21:27  <planetmaker> that ID defines the sort-order in the GUI
09:21:32  <planetmaker> lower ID is up
09:21:34  <V453000> also without changing newGRFs in game, they still are "15" above "12" if I just swap the code
09:21:46  <V453000> that doesnt work either :s
09:21:52  <planetmaker> or vice versa. I don't recall
09:22:07  <V453000> I had 1 2 3 4 15 12
09:22:20  <V453000> just because I swapped the two last in the code
09:22:41  <V453000> I did make a workaround and use the sort_order thingy, but the numeric ID seems to be doing nothing
09:24:43  <planetmaker> if you use sort order, the ID is pointless
09:24:53  <V453000> nono, without sort order
09:24:55  <planetmaker> then the ID defines the sort order wrt other concurrently loaded sets
09:25:03  <V453000> I used the sort order after I noticed it isnt working
09:25:08  <planetmaker> but... well. I never looked at that code
09:25:36  <V453000> hehe, well it does have a solution, but there is some strange behaviour there
09:26:45  <planetmaker> hm, which ID do you actually mean?
09:27:26  <V453000> item (FEAT_RAILTYPES, WETR, 12){ the 12
09:28:19  <dihedral> TrueBrain, what's the current state for the usage of * ?
09:28:55  <planetmaker> ok... and swapping them has no effect you say (when no sort order is defined)?
09:28:57  <V453000> this is the code of all my railtypes without the sort_order, 12 will show below 15 because they are that way in the code. If I just swap them in the code, it will swap them too - and make the newGRF also break with changing newGRF in game
09:29:08  <V453000> it has some effect
09:29:18  <V453000> it has the effect of which railtype changes how when updating newGRFs
09:29:31  <V453000> but of course it does not change the order in the menu as sort_order defines that
09:30:37  <V453000> so, when NUTS47 had 5 railtypes with the 5th one being UNIV rail, NUTS48 must have 5th UNIV too, but adding the WETR as 6th
09:31:14  <V453000> otherwise the UNIV -> WETR borkdown when changing newGRFs in running game
09:32:44  <V453000> from which I come to a conclusion that the 12 or 15 do not matter at all
09:32:56  <V453000> as only the order in the code seems to
09:34:41  <V453000> does the thing I wrote make any sense? :d
09:36:28  <planetmaker> changing NewGRFs in a running game need not work
09:36:34  <planetmaker> that's not a bug per se
09:37:04  <V453000> well sure I dont say that, but it shows how the ID is not doing much
09:37:08  <planetmaker> what IMHO should work is that the ID defines sort order when it is not given explicitly
09:37:22  <V453000> yeah
09:37:24  <V453000> indeed
09:37:43  <planetmaker> does it do that (for new games)? I understood your report it does not?
09:38:03  <V453000> yeah sure, same behaviour with new games
09:38:38  <V453000> obviously nothing breaks that way, but the order of the railtypes still is swapped (unless I use sort_order)
09:42:44  <V453000> on another note, the loading stages thingy apparently happened since RC2
09:43:02  <V453000> and 25071 already does it
09:44:24  <planetmaker> would be nice to know which version broke it - or at least roughly pinpoint where it breaks :-)
09:46:10  <V453000> wow
09:46:17  <V453000> @25069	 [25069]	13 days	frosch	 -Release 1.3.0-RC2
09:46:23  <V453000> and 25071 breaks
09:46:37  <planetmaker> but RC2 not?
09:46:37  <V453000> the only changes seem to be in the webtranslator
09:46:39  <V453000> how :o
09:46:50  <V453000> yep
09:47:00  <planetmaker> well. nightly is not 1.3 branch. There are some differences already
09:47:43  <V453000> true
09:48:22  <planetmaker> basically RC1 is when branch-off happens
09:48:37  <V453000> 25016-25012 seem to be some changes around that area
09:48:38  <planetmaker> I suspect
09:49:12  <planetmaker> and those others you mention, yes
09:49:13  <V453000> yeah
09:49:42  <planetmaker> cargodist breaks it ;-)
09:49:57  <V453000> cargodist in trunk?
09:50:01  <planetmaker> nope
09:50:13  <V453000> then how can it break it :D
09:50:16  <planetmaker> but those are preparatory parts of it
09:50:27  <V453000> :D
09:50:32  <V453000> breaks stuff before existence
09:51:24  <planetmaker> so trunk is broken, RC is not. That's good :D
09:52:04  <V453000> :)
09:52:36  <planetmaker> r25k is branching of course :D
09:53:03  <V453000> sense :)
09:54:04  <planetmaker> ah, good, you added the rev reference already to the issue
09:54:28  <V453000> yez
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12:40:29  <blathijs> Hmm, is it me or is this snippet from the "Musicdriver" wiki page incorrect: "extmidi: Enables an external midi device, from the sound cards midi/game port"
12:40:55  <blathijs> AFAIU extmidi means an external midi driver, not an external midi port
12:41:10  <blathijs> e.g., external process for midi playback
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13:14:34  * Pikka blames peter1138
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13:26:09  <V453000> whaaat 07 did not win? Unfair!
13:28:35  <peter1138> what
13:28:47  <V453000> teh title gaym
13:29:15  <Eddi|zuHause> so, which one did win?
13:30:18  <V453000> 07
13:41:22  <__ln__> but kimi's number is 7 and he won.
14:05:03  <Bonez305> anyone running a server on linux ?
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14:16:52  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, NML parameter stuffing: would it make sense to make the assignment statement "[<type>] <name> = <value>", with <type> ::= { "bit" | "byte" | "word" | "dword" }, so that NML can fit multiple named parameters into one GRF-parameter?
14:18:42  <Eddi|zuHause> defaults to "dword" for backwards compatibility
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14:45:13  <DorpsGek> Commit by matthijs :: r25108 trunk/ (2013-03-18 14:45:06 UTC)
14:45:14  <DorpsGek> -Fix: Pass $LDFLAGS_BUILD to all endian_check compilations.
14:45:15  <DorpsGek>   - In Makefile.{lang,setting}.in the flags were already passed since r24365.
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15:07:04  <Ristovski> hmm, I might be able to translate to Macedonian
15:07:40  <planetmaker> Ristovski, explains how to apply
15:08:14  <Ristovski> ok
15:08:45  <planetmaker> a macedonian translator would be highly welcome. Much work ahead there ;-)
15:09:21  <Ristovski> I know, I can see ;D
15:09:26  <Ristovski> only 28% done :D
15:09:33  <planetmaker> basically: register with OpenTTD, send the login and desired language to our translator e-mail address and we'll assign you to the macedonian translation
15:09:51  <Ristovski> planetmaker: already all done :D
15:09:55  <planetmaker> and then you can start translating using the web translator. Oh, ok
15:10:30  <planetmaker> then expect a reply later this evening. I don't have openttd e-mail at work
15:10:54  <Ristovski> ok, sure
15:11:11  <Ristovski> planetmaker: why does exist too?
15:11:46  <planetmaker> he, I didn't know it exists :-)
15:12:11  <Ristovski> lol, but nvm, already sent the email :D
15:12:51  <Ristovski> I think I can also try to translate some wiki pages into Macedonian aswell
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15:12:58  <Ristovski> it will take some time tho
15:13:10  <planetmaker> sure. you need no special permission for that. Please go right ahead :-)
15:13:22  <Ristovski> oh, ok :D
15:16:07  <Ristovski> planetmaker: hmm, how can I edit, the caption for the czech lang. is wrong
15:16:16  <Ristovski> am I allowed to edit it?
15:16:55  <planetmaker> wiki is wiki. People may edit it to change / improve / add what they think is wrong or needs adding or clarification
15:17:12  <Ristovski> ok
15:17:59  <planetmaker> though you linked a category page... that's mostly automatically generated by wiki
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15:19:17  <Ristovski> planetmaker: hmm, is this a bug or something, I changed the |cs= tho it didnt change the text in the category
15:19:28  <Ristovski> aka in the [Category:Translation]]
15:20:00  <Ristovski> oh, its the pages name
15:20:03  <planetmaker> yes
15:20:14  <planetmaker> it should stay, I guess ;-)
15:20:58  <Ristovski> hmm, so I cant rename the page?
15:21:02  <Ristovski> since the title is wrong
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15:21:28  <planetmaker> it's feasible... but it involves changes in a few places
15:21:39  <Core_Xii> what determines the selling price of vehicles?
15:21:50  <planetmaker> and I know it neither by heart nor can I properly explain tha from scratch on IRC
15:22:06  <Ristovski> planetmaker: oh ok, also, lol someone seems to have used google translate to translate it, 40% is wrong
15:22:20  <planetmaker> sounds bad, Ristovski :-)
15:22:24  <Ristovski> indeed
15:22:27  <V453000> im sure there is some cost_multiplier property or something like that Core_Xii
15:22:30  <planetmaker> but there's no way for us to check as non-native speaker
15:22:42  <Ristovski> planetmaker: I am a native speaker :D
15:22:55  <planetmaker> Core_Xii, the purchase cost and then the sale price is the same, but reduced over time
15:23:02  <V453000> cost_factor	 0 ... 255	 Set to 0	 multiplier to the base purchase cost
15:23:05  <planetmaker> probably over the lifetime of the vehicle
15:23:05  <Ristovski> I speak both Macedonian and Czech, I also know Serbian, so I can help in translating there aswell
15:23:30  <Core_Xii> that's purchase cost. but what of selling?
15:23:37  <planetmaker> Ristovski, yes, you do :-) But people who are notnative speakers can't even notice
15:23:46  <Ristovski> planetmaker: I can imagine
15:23:46  <planetmaker> Core_Xii, as I said...
15:23:50  <V453000> why do you want to change selling but not purchase? :D
15:24:27  <Core_Xii> but how is it reduced over time?
15:24:37  <Core_Xii> some factor of vehicle age?
15:24:41  <planetmaker> likely
15:24:51  <__ln__> 17:20 < Ristovski> hmm, so I cant rename the page?  <--- you mean "can't"
15:25:02  <Ristovski> __ln__: *sigh*
15:25:21  <V453000> I havent seen anyone correct that on irc for ages :D
15:25:23  <Ristovski> why do you even bother
15:25:25  <Core_Xii> V453000: I want to change selling ratio to discourage a certain strategy.. of buying vehicles, sending them one-way, selling after unloading (easy for AIs, difficult for humans)
15:25:47  <planetmaker> Core_Xii, that requires changes to openttd's code. Not Newgrf-able
15:25:50  <Core_Xii> that is, to make it more economical to KEEP a train than continue buying and selling them
15:25:52  <V453000> only retards do that ... if they enjoy the game that way, why not
15:25:55  <Core_Xii> that's unfortunate
15:26:07  <V453000> my solution would be to just simply make costs of trains low
15:26:15  <Ristovski> oh my god, if i ever go into translating I will alot of job
15:26:25  <V453000> therefore making the network big quickly with low costs means the selling trick isnt effective
15:26:39  <Core_Xii> not AS effective, yes, but still strictly superior
15:27:03  <V453000> well, high costs are boring anyway
15:27:08  <planetmaker> Core_Xii, that strategy works for maybe the first 5 years (ingame). Then it's ineffective
15:27:18  <Core_Xii> why would it become ineffective?
15:27:22  <planetmaker> thus solving that is solving a problem which practically doesn't exist
15:27:28  <V453000> and if you have a lot of trains quickly, nobody can do that effectively
15:27:34  <Core_Xii> an AI can
15:27:35  <planetmaker> you could make more money by expanding your network instead of micro-managing your trains
15:27:41  <V453000> who cares about an AI ...
15:27:49  <V453000> and why would use an AI which does that
15:27:49  <Core_Xii> since I'm developing one, I sure do
15:27:49  <planetmaker> AIs can, yes. But... don't play with bad AIs.
15:27:58  <Core_Xii> no, that's GOOD AI
15:27:59  <planetmaker> or don't write a bad AI
15:28:06  <Core_Xii> it's a fault in OpenTTD's design
15:28:13  <planetmaker> not really
15:28:14  <Core_Xii> exploiting it is playing well
15:28:18  <V453000> it is a fault in openttds design that your AI does -that- ?
15:28:30  <V453000> OpenTTD is absolutely not about money
15:28:33  <Core_Xii> no, it's a fault in OpenTTD that it's superior and only AI can do it
15:28:38  <Core_Xii> the game part of it is
15:28:39  <planetmaker> Core_Xii, Rondje does (or at least did) do that
15:28:40  <V453000> sooner or later any player can buy anything
15:28:44  <Core_Xii> I'm uninterested in realism simulations
15:29:13  <V453000> how is the R-word related in this context :d
15:29:28  <planetmaker> Core_Xii, if an AI does that for its advantage, it deserves that. It's at a disadvantage wrt players anyway
15:29:32  <V453000> if your AI is doing crap, why code it that way? :D
15:29:45  <Core_Xii> it's not crap, it's good play
15:29:57  <V453000> why is it good playing?
15:29:57  <Core_Xii> but it's an asymmetry between AIs and human players, which I dislike
15:30:03  <Core_Xii> because it makes more profit
15:30:09  <V453000> profit is totally irrelevant
15:30:14  <planetmaker> Core_Xii, purchase = sale price is good design though
15:30:23  <Core_Xii> if you use OpenTTD as a toy, yes, profit is irrelevant
15:30:31  <planetmaker> you can test a train. and sell it w/o loss really if it doesn't fulfill its purpose
15:30:31  <Core_Xii> but if you play it as a game, profit is everything
15:30:33  <V453000> openttd isnt a game?
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15:30:41  <V453000> what
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15:30:49  <planetmaker> it kills fun if a wrong klick kills the game for you in the starting stages
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15:30:56  <V453000> why would you even care about profit after 1 hour of playing
15:31:04  <V453000> as you can buy literally anything at that point
15:31:12  <Core_Xii> your comment demonstrates how badly OpenTTD sucks as a game
15:31:14  <planetmaker> So having a huge penalty there... I'd not advise. And thus I think the current design is more rewarding
15:31:37  <V453000> OpenTTD is imo the best game ever made
15:31:38  <Terkhen> I know that one of you is trolling, but I'm unsure on who
15:31:41  <planetmaker> whose, Core_Xii ?
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15:31:58  <planetmaker> Hi Terkhen :-)
15:32:05  <Core_Xii> OpenTTD is a great toy. like SimCity. but it's not a good game at all. games have goals and challenges
15:32:08  <Pikka> I haven't tried it and I couldn't be less interested in this discussion, but can you alter the value of the vehicle with cb36 after it is bought, or does prop 17 only apply to unbuilt vehicles and/or globally to a vehicle ID?
15:32:15  <Terkhen> :P
15:32:25  <Pikka> hello Terkhen and planetmaker
15:32:29  <planetmaker> hi Pikka :-)
15:32:33  <Terkhen> hi ;)
15:32:54  <V453000> Core_Xii: build 3000 trains on 512x512, not challenging enough?
15:33:08  <Core_Xii> that's an arbitrary, player-defined goal
15:33:11  <Terkhen> Core_Xii: goals are implemented by goal scripts
15:33:15  <planetmaker> Core_Xii, did you play with e.g. the game script "silicon valley"?
15:33:21  <Core_Xii> not yet
15:33:25  <V453000> no, it is set by the game cause we needed that much thorughput for the cargo produced
15:33:31  <planetmaker> try that. Then continue to swear about goal absence
15:33:51  <Core_Xii> I'm not swearing about goal absence
15:34:03  <Core_Xii> I'm trying to figure out how to balance an exploit available to AIs only
15:34:06  <V453000> you said there are no goals or challenges?
15:34:10  <Terkhen> and having said that, player set goals are very valid in my opinion, in the sense that they provide a challenge and a sensation of success
15:34:15  <Terkhen> depending on the player, of course
15:34:17  <V453000> do not use it for AIs? LOL
15:34:22  * Terkhen reads back to know the exploit
15:34:23  <planetmaker> Core_Xii, it needs no balancing. I beat every AI there is. Whether it uses that trick or not
15:34:36  <Core_Xii> because AI haven't matured yet
15:34:37  <planetmaker> Terkhen, rondje trick: buy, send one-way. sell
15:34:52  <Terkhen> but that was fixed years ago
15:35:00  <Core_Xii> how was it fixed?
15:35:06  <V453000> AIs will never be comparable to human players
15:35:08  <Terkhen> with the unload fix, I doubt that it is as profitable as it ws in rondje times
15:35:12  <Terkhen> was*
15:35:13  <V453000> no matter how much you want
15:35:26  <Core_Xii> that's your opinion
15:35:29  <planetmaker> nah, not that, Terkhen :-) But that it is better to send vehicles one-way
15:35:37  <Terkhen> it may give you a certain edge, but a smart player will still triumph over the AI
15:35:51  <Core_Xii> only until AIs get smart enough
15:35:53  <Terkhen> the AI will waste a lot of computer cycles doing that, and they are limited
15:36:01  <planetmaker> Core_Xii, anyway. I think with the grand scheme you design: this is the least of your worries
15:36:07  <Terkhen> that level of micromanage will force your AI to stay small
15:36:11  * V453000 awaits for the reults of coding GOD-AI by Core_Xii
15:36:20  <Core_Xii> does it really waste a lot of cycles to 1) duplicate some vehicles, 2) start them?
15:36:30  <Terkhen> I don't know, I'm no expert in AI code
15:36:36  <Terkhen> but it wastes more cycles than doing nothing :P
15:36:40  <planetmaker> ^
15:36:55  <Core_Xii> question is, is it more profitable to do it than not
15:37:08  <planetmaker> possibly
15:37:15  <Terkhen> in the short term probably, in the long term it is harmful
15:37:21  <Core_Xii> if your trains run empty, doing nothing, half the time, that seems pretty uneconomical
15:37:35  <Core_Xii> basically doubling your running costs
15:37:38  <V453000> you can refit trains to reach up to 100% theoretical full-load time
15:37:41  <planetmaker> use proper wagons, make them run with different cargos at different ways forth and back
15:37:45  <planetmaker> --> more profit
15:37:53  <Pikka> or even the same cargo
15:37:58  <planetmaker> or even that :-)
15:37:59  <V453000> planetmaker: that still totals 50% empty :P
15:38:00  <Core_Xii> that's true. few industry sets allow such back and forth though
15:38:09  <planetmaker> V453000, how that?
15:38:13  <V453000> yeah, all of them
15:38:26  <Pikka> fine, I'll try it.
15:38:34  <planetmaker> 500 tile journey full. 20 tile to next pickup empty. 500 tiles back full. 20 tiles to original pickup empty
15:38:40  <V453000> pm: well cargo A wagons full on the way back, cargo B wagons on the way there, but still the other half is empty half of the time
15:38:47  <planetmaker> V453000, auto-refit
15:38:48  <Core_Xii> autorefit
15:38:58  <V453000> :D no comment
15:39:00  <planetmaker> or even manual in depot. doesn't matter
15:39:07  <planetmaker> still you got 90% full wagons
15:39:07  <V453000> but lets consider it to be the same as refit for this scenario
15:39:15  <V453000> ye
15:39:25  <planetmaker> manual as in set in orders
15:39:27  <V453000> depending on station rating,mostly around 90%
15:39:31  <planetmaker> doesn't need a click
15:39:37  <V453000> yeah sure
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15:40:32  <planetmaker> the thing which does IMHO need an overhaul are breakdowns
15:40:42  <Pikka> mm newbreakdowns
15:40:43  <V453000> +1
15:40:49  <planetmaker> It needs imho a scheme where there are no breakdowns when you service regularily.
15:40:57  <planetmaker> And like now when you don't service them
15:40:57  <V453000> there should be a reward for the player who services properly
15:41:03  <V453000> ye
15:41:15  <Terkhen> disable breakdowns, done :P
15:41:33  <planetmaker> yes... but it makes the reliability properties totally useless. Frosch is right there ;-)
15:41:46  <planetmaker> of course I do that all the time ;-)
15:41:59  <V453000> Core_Xii: typical refit game with very high % of loaded trains on the network
15:42:33  <Core_Xii> I know I don't need reference
15:43:35  <planetmaker> btw, Core_Xii : you brush away Eddi's well-founded hint that it's more reasonable to do the project piecewise.
15:43:52  <planetmaker> Doing so does not imply - like you suggest - to use different designs for the different NewGRFs
15:44:05  <planetmaker> It just means that it consists of different modules
15:44:17  <Core_Xii> planetmaker: did you read my reply?
15:44:22  <planetmaker> yes, I did.
15:44:29  <planetmaker> it doesn't make sense to me
15:44:55  <Core_Xii> it's not compatible with anything else at the moment, and no part works without the others, so I don't see how it can be split up at all, except for music
15:45:05  <Core_Xii> and maybe UI graphics
15:45:17  <planetmaker> that's not a counter-argument against what eddi said
15:45:38  <planetmaker> you will have houses. you will have trains, ships, rv, planes, industries, stations
15:45:45  <planetmaker> thus that separation into those is kinda natural
15:45:52  <planetmaker> whether you use a common design or not
15:46:12  <Core_Xii> no it's not
15:46:23  <planetmaker> and whether it is graphically compatible with anything existing or not. That doesn't change it either
15:46:25  <Core_Xii> what vehicles there are is determined by industries
15:46:39  <planetmaker> yes, so?
15:47:10  <Core_Xii> so the vehicles, without the industries, don't do anything by themselves
15:47:22  <Core_Xii> and vice versa actually
15:47:23  <V453000> they are vehicles? :D
15:47:42  <V453000> thats all they do
15:47:44  <planetmaker> correctly speaking vehicles depend on cargo. Not industries ;-) And that still is nowhere an argument to see that monolithic
15:47:54  <V453000> why couldnt they do that separately in a separate newGRF
15:48:03  <Core_Xii> well, why should they?
15:48:14  <Core_Xii> why split up what can be one?
15:48:27  <planetmaker> maintainability
15:48:33  <planetmaker> modularity
15:48:45  <planetmaker> configurability
15:48:57  <V453000> ^^^
15:49:04  <planetmaker> motivation to get one thing "done"
15:49:08  <Core_Xii> modularizing makes maintenance and configuration more difficult, not less
15:50:05  <Core_Xii> modularity makes no sense to begin with; there's nothing to add to this whole
15:50:14  <V453000> either way, I think some uber simplified graphical look could be interesting
15:50:15  <Core_Xii> it will contain everything it should, and nothing more
15:50:17  <planetmaker> ah well
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15:50:44  <planetmaker> I guess I have said everything I should. and more ;-)
15:51:03  <Core_Xii> V453000: agreed, this'll be an interesting experiment
15:51:15  <V453000> pretty much pm :d
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15:52:24  <V453000> experiment or not, doing everything at once will be a lot of work
15:52:44  <V453000> making it in smaller parts is a lot better, but up to you
15:52:46  <Core_Xii> I disagree, I think it'll be less work
15:52:52  <planetmaker> as a rough guide: zbase took a few months. And many things were already existing and were just newly rendered
15:53:17  <Core_Xii> zBase is a different project, it aims to modularly replace 8bit graphics
15:53:32  <Core_Xii> my NewGRF won't "fit in" with any other, it's a whole of its own
15:53:32  <planetmaker> and that's a base set which does not touch any gameplay aspect
15:53:44  <planetmaker> and you're wrong there... base sets are not modular
15:53:50  <Core_Xii> (except for music and GUI as mentioned)
15:54:11  <planetmaker> base sets are "everything". And that is abotu 10000 sprites
15:54:36  <Core_Xii> it seems pretty modular to me... zBase has a new, HD church, right? and a NewGRF can replace it with another graphic if it wants
15:55:10  <Core_Xii> a NewGRF can add town houses on top of zBase, no?
15:55:22  <Core_Xii> same for industries, vehicles, etc....
15:55:22  <planetmaker> it's a base set... of course every newgrf can do so
15:55:26  <Core_Xii> exactly
15:55:31  <planetmaker> as can newgrfs add to your newgrf
15:55:39  <planetmaker> same thing, just different colour
15:55:43  <Core_Xii> technically, yes, but there's no point in doing so
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15:55:54  <Core_Xii> because everything is reduced and/or redesigned
15:55:56  <planetmaker> is there a point in adding anything to vanilla openttd?
15:56:19  <Core_Xii> well that depends.. as a toy, or a game?
15:57:17  <Pikka> Core_Xii, your base set will also include a new church. A NewGRF can remove the church, replace it, or leave it alone.
15:57:39  <Core_Xii> and mine removes it, yes
15:57:42  <V453000> from what I understand I dont think he wants to make a base set
15:57:55  <Core_Xii> my NewGRF removes absolutely everything that doesn't serve a purpose in it
15:58:14  <planetmaker> you can't remove rivers ;-)
15:58:19  <Pikka> :)
15:58:22  <planetmaker> the concept is hard-coded
15:58:22  <V453000> XD
15:58:26  <Pikka> you're not making a base set?
15:58:26  <Core_Xii> ...everything it cans :P
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15:58:37  <Pikka> I'm making a base set.  it seems to be the right way to go. :)
15:58:39  <Core_Xii> well, define "base set"?
15:58:47  <Core_Xii> I'd say it's a "core set"
15:58:50  <V453000> opengfx, zbase
15:58:57  <V453000> visual only
15:58:59  <planetmaker> base set is well-defined
15:59:09  <Core_Xii> this is not a visual-only base set
15:59:14  <planetmaker> it's the essential set of graphics openttd needs
15:59:17  <Core_Xii> I'm changing gameplay a lot
15:59:27  <V453000> Pikka: you making a base set would probably make jaws drop
15:59:29  <planetmaker> a base set cannot modify game play
15:59:45  <Pikka> V453000, everyone will hate it, especially mb
15:59:49  <Core_Xii> so, define "base set"
15:59:52  <planetmaker> hehe, Pikka :-)
15:59:54  <V453000> :D
16:00:02  <Core_Xii> my set will modify gameplay, so I guess it's not a base set then?
16:00:11  <planetmaker> indeed, it cannot be
16:00:19  <V453000> im not sure where base set is defined
16:00:22  <Pikka>
16:00:24  <planetmaker> it's simply then yet another newgrf ;-)
16:00:28  <V453000> ah
16:00:43  <V453000> what they said ^^
16:01:08  <planetmaker> that page is soooo ancient, Pikka :-)
16:01:15  <Core_Xii> well yeah, it was a NewGRF from the very start. what else would it be? I'm not patching the engine or anything
16:01:20  <Pikka> yes planetmaker
16:01:26  <Pikka> but it makes it clear what a base set is ;)
16:01:34  <planetmaker> yep
16:02:01  <planetmaker> not criticising giving that link. It just ... showed that not all wiki pages are well-maintained ;-)
16:02:06  <V453000> ignore what se said Core_Xii , you are just making a newGRF which changes everything
16:02:18  <Core_Xii> pretty much
16:02:46  <V453000> im quite curious what will come out of your efforts
16:02:48  <Core_Xii> I don't know yet what changing UI graphics and music requires though. can NewGRFs do that?
16:03:05  <planetmaker> music = music base set
16:03:10  <planetmaker> sound: yes
16:03:17  <V453000> how is music relevant to gameplay? XD
16:03:22  <Core_Xii> haha, it's not :D
16:03:23  <planetmaker> UI: limited
16:03:51  <planetmaker> limited as in you can give everything a new symbol. But you cannot re-arrange anything
16:04:19  <Core_Xii> can you have different colors, borders on buttons, etc.?
16:04:23  <planetmaker> no
16:04:26  <Core_Xii> aw
16:04:39  <Core_Xii> I guess I'm eventually making a new base set then too
16:04:45  <planetmaker> they can't do that either
16:04:57  <Core_Xii> bummer
16:05:32  <planetmaker> everything a base set does can be done by newgrf (with marginal exceptions)
16:05:36  <Pikka> changing the recolour maps used to change some of the window colours, at least :)
16:05:48  <planetmaker> it still does, Pikka
16:06:07  <planetmaker> I lied. Somewhat ;-)
16:06:15  <V453000> :D
16:06:27  <V453000> yeah, mauve to black does that :)
16:06:55  <planetmaker> but it allows for none of the effects Core_Xii really asked for
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16:07:05  <V453000> soo something like gray to wtfcolour would do the same?
16:07:19  <V453000> wwell yeah :)
16:07:24  <Core_Xii> well, GUI and music are pretty orthogonal, so it's not a crisis or anything
16:07:49  <Core_Xii> OpenTTD can play real audio besides just midi, though, right?
16:08:01  <Eddi|zuHause> no
16:08:04  <planetmaker> nope
16:08:09  <Core_Xii> oh lord
16:08:24  <Ristovski> is anybody else experiencing this bug? when I play a song (OpenMFX) it just cycles through them very quickly
16:08:31  <Eddi|zuHause> Core_Xii: and i think you missed several points i was making
16:08:42  <Ristovski> it doesnt even play any, it just infinity loops at displaying the tittle of every one
16:08:57  <Ristovski> title*
16:08:57  <planetmaker> Ristovski, that sounds like OpenTTD does not find an audio device
16:09:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Ristovski: usually means your midi drivers is configured the wrong way
16:09:06  <Ristovski> planetmaker: I can hear sounds tho
16:09:19  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds are different
16:09:31  <Ristovski> oh, Eddi|zuHause: then how can I fix it?
16:09:45  <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on your OS
16:09:57  <Ristovski> Linux
16:10:07  <Eddi|zuHause> then install timidity
16:10:09  <Ristovski> Debian to be specific, I also compile OpenTTD
16:10:55  <Ristovski> Eddi|zuHause: "the game music should now play." I can already hear them tho
16:11:01  <Ristovski> oh, read sounds
16:11:03  <Ristovski> sorry!
16:13:54  <planetmaker> Core_Xii, what would IMHO work well is an approach like we try with OpenGFX/OpenGFX+: a base set which provides the fundamental graphics. And then NewGRFs which modify the gameplay in the individual areas to the desired effect
16:14:37  <Core_Xii> why go through the trouble of modularizing the base graphics when they clash with all others?
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16:15:08  <Eddi|zuHause> they might look different, but it does not necessarily mean they "clash"
16:15:26  <Core_Xii> it really does. you guys don't even grasp how different my set looks
16:15:34  <planetmaker> reason again is 'maintainability'. Especially also for you
16:15:44  <Ristovski> Eddi|zuHause: that worked, thanks!
16:15:45  <Eddi|zuHause> also what i tried to say: what is when in 5 years someone does a NewGRF in your graphics styles?
16:15:55  <planetmaker> ^^
16:16:06  <Core_Xii> what about it
16:16:17  <Core_Xii> ignoring that there shouldn't be any reason to
16:16:22  <Eddi|zuHause> people can't use it, because they can't turn off the part in your grf
16:16:34  <planetmaker> *sigh*
16:16:43  <Eddi|zuHause> there might not be a reason NOW
16:16:50  <Eddi|zuHause> but maybe in 5 years there is a reason?
16:16:52  <Pikka> planetmaker: let him do what he wants to do, why do you care? :)
16:16:55  <Core_Xii> if a reason is found, then I've failed in my design
16:17:01  <planetmaker> "I know how it must work, and no-one can possibly be at any time find reasons to see it differently" :-)
16:17:17  <Core_Xii> but... I'm willing to listen to good arguments
16:17:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot predict the future
16:17:21  <planetmaker> Core_Xii, yes. And the approach of monolithic makes sure the failure cannot be recovered
16:17:38  <Core_Xii> how so?
16:17:59  <Core_Xii> changing a monolithic set should, as far as I can see, be easier than a modular one
16:18:05  <Ristovski> I like how the "Music volume" slider doesnt even work
16:18:06  <Ristovski> lol
16:18:08  <planetmaker> it's a matter whether a fix needs time of the order of o(N) or o(dN)
16:18:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Ristovski: yeah, it does that :)
16:18:31  <Ristovski> Eddi|zuHause: hmm, Ill try to look at the source later
16:18:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Ristovski: i was told it's not possible
16:18:45  <Ristovski> actually, its taunting me, I must do it now!
16:18:49  <Ristovski> Eddi|zuHause: how so?
16:19:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i never looked into it, really
16:19:40  <Ristovski> its sound->volume right?
16:19:56  <Eddi|zuHause> no
16:19:59  <Eddi|zuHause> sound != music
16:20:12  <Eddi|zuHause> completely separate things
16:20:28  <Ristovski> oh
16:20:38  <goodger> timidity is somewhat difficult to control
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16:21:06  <goodger> it's a strange beast, I think it was designed from the beginning for CLI use and the daemon mode is a bit of an afterthought
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16:22:01  <Eddi|zuHause> [Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2013] [19:55:51] <Eddi|zuHause>   hmm... "dbg: [driver] extmidi: set volume not implemented"
16:22:03  <Eddi|zuHause> [Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2013] [19:57:15] <peter1138>      it's not
16:22:04  <Eddi|zuHause> [Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2013] [19:57:22] <peter1138>      and never will be
16:22:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that was basically the entire discussion :)
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16:23:49  <SpComb> I have a USB sound card with no volume control
16:23:52  <goodger> I wonder if someone with a high-end digital orchestra program could make a wavetable render of the MIDIs, for use as FLACs
16:24:09  <SpComb> and >100dB SPL speakers with only +-6dB input trim
16:24:09  <goodger> should be no copyright problems
16:24:13  <SpComb> setting it up was fun
16:24:33  <SpComb> goodger: there are, somewhere on the forums
16:24:44  <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: what? this is full of copyright problems
16:26:10  <planetmaker> goodger, that's surely a derivative. And... that's not allowed unless explicitly granted in the license
16:26:36  <goodger> I meant openMSX... is openMSX not GPL-compatible?
16:26:50  <planetmaker> OpenMSX is licensed under GPL v2, yes
16:27:13  <Eddi|zuHause> MSX, yes. but your soundfont must be as well
16:27:31  <Ristovski> Eddi|zuHause: does it happen in Winderz too?
16:27:33  <Ristovski> i mean windows*
16:27:40  <planetmaker> there once was a patch to add sound font support to OpenTTD
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16:27:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Ristovski: i have no idea. probably works completely different
16:27:55  <Ristovski> Eddi|zuHause: hmm.. weird
16:28:21  <goodger> commercial "soundfonts" (not that soundfont technology is commonly used now) don't restrict the user's ability to copyright the music they render with it
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16:29:14  <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: but you make a derivative work of a GPLv2 project, so the GPLv2 requires you to include the "sources"
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16:29:27  <Eddi|zuHause> which means the soundfont must be GPLv2-able
16:29:34  <SpComb> really?
16:29:43  <goodger> right; the source is the MIDI file, the soundfont is just part of the compiler
16:29:47  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: does compiling a binary from GPL sources require you to provider the sources for the compiler?
16:30:31  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: depends on how far you can argue that something is "typically part of the compiler"
16:30:53  <goodger> or how far you can argue that a piece of music has source code
16:31:00  <SpComb> hmm, does the GPL require that compiled binaries are distributable without restrictions
16:31:08  <goodger> it does not
16:31:29  <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: MIDI is perfectly well a programming language
16:31:52  <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: okay, so the digital orchestra software is a compiler
16:31:55  <SpComb> what about a compiler with curious built-in behavior for generating a main() function for a program linking against gpl libraries..
16:32:42  <goodger> that said, the MIDI files would only be imported into the DO program
16:32:54  <SpComb> but yeah, I'd certainly say that an audio file rendered from midi files is a derived work of the midi files
16:34:00  <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: ok, the program is a compiler, but as soon as it can handle more than one exchangable soundfont, that soundfont is not anymore "typical part of the compiler", but some add-on-product
16:34:35  <goodger> wait, where did you get the word "typical" from?
16:35:01  <goodger> this debate is somewhat immaterial since we could just be asking the people who wrote the MIDI files in question
16:35:37  <Eddi|zuHause> "However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable."
16:35:41  <Core_Xii> this "compiler" takes two source files, the MIDI instructions that tell which notes to play, and a SoundFont that tells how each note should sound, and produces an output file of an audio waveform. that, is derivative of both input files
16:36:23  <Eddi|zuHause> (from GPLv2 license)
16:36:44  <Core_Xii> not that I care about copyright
16:36:56  <goodger> from this I gather two things
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16:37:15  <Ristovski> the volume seems to be set, but it doesnt change it for some reason
16:37:54  <planetmaker> not that it comes to haunt you, the lack of care about copyright
16:39:06  <goodger> firstly, the GPL is almost comically unsuitable for music distribution; secondly, this clause is so ambiguous in this case that no clear resolution is likely ever to happen
16:40:03  <SpComb> yeah, not entirely convinced GPL is a sensible choice for midi files
16:40:33  <SpComb> on the other hand, how common is distribution of midi files in audio form..
16:40:45  <goodger> not very common since MIDI became obsolete
16:41:53  <planetmaker> SpComb, maybe not the most sensible. But I wanted something which goes easily with OpenTTD. Thus GPL was chosen
16:43:16  <planetmaker> earlier versions were dual-licensed under gpl2 and ccsp1+
16:43:23  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe CC-BY-SA dual-license would be a better choice?
16:43:42  <planetmaker> what about commercial usage there?
16:43:53  <planetmaker> gpl does not restrict that really
16:44:01  <Eddi|zuHause> that would be -NC
16:44:12  <goodger> or planetmaker could just allow the compositions to be rendered as FLACs
16:44:22  <planetmaker> goodger, no, I can't
16:44:31  <goodger> you're not the sole copyright holder?
16:44:45  <planetmaker> I'm not the author of any of the pieces. I specifically made sure I got license agreement from each composer / musician
16:44:54  <planetmaker> for both licenses
16:44:57  <goodger> I see
16:45:20  <goodger> how many of the compositions are licensed under CC?
16:45:40  <planetmaker> My contribution is making all those pieces into a music set openttd understands. Technically the bundling or how you migth call that
16:45:45  <planetmaker> I don't know
16:45:59  <planetmaker> but the documentation might know :-)
16:46:01  <Eddi|zuHause> simplified: CC-BY-SA adds the requirement "must mention name" and drops the requirement "must distribute source code" relative to GPLv2
16:46:04  <planetmaker> it's years ago I wrote it
16:46:10  <goodger> well, fair enough
16:46:35  <goodger> if many of them are already licensed under CC then we could have them rendered nicely
16:46:45  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it keeps the requirement "must be released under similar license"
16:47:43  <goodger> anyway, I have to go to the pharmacy
16:48:24  <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: discussing licenses with authors often turns to a point where they want either "-ND" or "-NC" applied
16:48:37  <goodger> NC is fine
16:48:38  <planetmaker> my main motivation back then was to get a set going. I was always hoping that there'll be some person who is much more musical and a much bigger music lover than myself who would give love to some music set
16:48:41  <Eddi|zuHause> which both are unsuitible for open source projects
16:48:42  <goodger> no ND exists for CC
16:49:02  <planetmaker> or even that set, continuing it to something beautiful
16:49:03  <goodger> or does it...
16:49:14  <Core_Xii> sure it does
16:49:28  <Core_Xii> at least there was a special music license
16:49:36  <planetmaker> CCSP1+ ;-)
16:49:37  <Core_Xii> that allowed sharing, but not derivative works
16:49:51  <goodger> o hell
16:50:11  <planetmaker> though... ccsp1+ allows derivatives. but not commercially, iirc
16:50:53  <Core_Xii> nope, ND is part of the standard deal
16:51:01  <goodger> so it is
16:51:08  <Core_Xii> for instance I released some music under BY-ND-NC
16:52:53  <planetmaker> easiest licenses are CC-BY and CC-SA
16:53:05  <planetmaker> it saved the TTRS basically
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16:57:16  <Terkhen> ah, licensing
16:58:17  <Core_Xii> the wiki is a bit inconsistent about what features are/aren't implemented in NML. could someone clarify?
16:59:16  <Terkhen> with regard to which features is it inconsistent?
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16:59:47  <Core_Xii> someone said only bridges aren't implemented, some page said stations aren't, some page said town houses aren't
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17:00:25  <Core_Xii> the thread first post says basically nothing is implemented yet
17:00:31  <Core_Xii> so some of this info must be outdated
17:01:04  <Terkhen> are we talking about the forum thread or the wiki?
17:01:09  <Core_Xii> both
17:02:10  <Terkhen> the wiki should be updated
17:02:22  <Terkhen> the bridges page does not exist, though
17:02:40  <Terkhen> and the forum thread should just link to the wiki :P
17:04:44  <Core_Xii> so.. stations and bridges are unimplemented?
17:05:13  <MNIM> yes.
17:05:24  <MNIM> openttd does not have stations or bridges.
17:05:37  <Core_Xii> ...?
17:06:16  <Core_Xii> talking about NML here
17:07:19  <Terkhen> Core_Xii: the station page explicitly says that it is not possible to code a station because the implementation is a work in progress
17:07:28  <Terkhen> and now the bridge page says the same too
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17:13:50  <planetmaker> Ristovski, check your e-mail
17:14:08  <Ristovski> ok
17:14:19  <planetmaker> well. or don't ;-) you can now re-login and start translating
17:14:55  <Ristovski> oh, ok, tho my god my connection is slow
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17:16:14  <Ristovski> planetmaker: btw, thanks!
17:16:56  <planetmaker> np
17:18:18  <Sacro> @seen Bjarni
17:18:18  <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 23 weeks, 2 days, 16 hours, 59 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
17:22:27  <Ristovski> planetmaker: hmm, seems like gotta wait some more
17:23:01  <planetmaker> why?
17:23:09  <Ristovski> planetmaker: still says im not a translator
17:23:25  <Ristovski> I did relog
17:23:28  <planetmaker> did you logout?
17:23:39  <Ristovski> yes
17:23:46  <Ristovski> planetmaker: I can see "Macedonian trunk"
17:23:59  <Ristovski> tho, when I press edit, I get "In order to view this section, you need to be a translator."
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17:26:05  <Ristovski> planetmaker: maybe I need to use
17:26:20  <Ristovski> seems like the db doesnt recognize me as a translator, tho I am assigned to macedonian
17:27:12  <planetmaker> try again. first press the logout link which is tiny at the bottom of the page
17:27:23  <Ristovski> I did, but okay, let me try again
17:27:39  <Ristovski> nope, still
17:28:01  <Ristovski> I am assigned to macedonian, tho it says im not a translator
17:28:21  <planetmaker> how do you know that you're assigned to macedonian, if you're not a translator?
17:28:36  <Ristovski> planetmaker: it says "macedonian/trunk" in the dropdown menu
17:28:44  <Ristovski> tho it says "In order to view this section, you need to be a translator. Please sign up here to become one."
17:30:11  <Terkhen> Ristovski: in the dropbox, does it say "read only"?
17:30:27  <Ristovski> Terkhen: nope
17:30:36  <planetmaker> uh, where, Terkhen ?
17:30:36  <Ristovski> only "Macedonian/trunk"
17:31:12  <Terkhen> planetmaker: in the dropbox you can check all languages, but for those you don't have permissions it adds "(Read only)" at the end
17:31:13  <Ristovski> planetmaker: heres a screenshot:
17:31:58  <Ristovski> planetmaker: is the db case-sensitive? since my name starts with an capital
17:32:04  <Ristovski> a*
17:32:12  <Terkhen> Ristovski: did you log out and log in again?
17:32:23  <Ristovski> Terkhen: like 5 times, yes
17:32:26  <Terkhen> strange
17:32:35  <__ln__> Ristovski: you mean "here's"
17:32:38  <planetmaker> Ristovski, and you really logged out via the thing in the middle bottom?
17:32:45  <Ristovski> planetmaker: yup
17:32:47  <planetmaker> hm
17:33:00  <planetmaker> the user name is case sensitive, afaik, yes
17:33:13  <planetmaker> and yours is without captital "r"
17:33:23  <Ristovski> it is
17:33:34  <Ristovski> planetmaker: its "Ristovski"
17:33:37  <planetmaker> hm... maybe not case sensitive :-)
17:33:41  <Ristovski> lol
17:34:06  <Ristovski> logged out again, still doesnt work
17:35:13  <__ln__> Ristovski: you mean "it's"
17:35:36  <Ristovski> ...
17:35:51  <planetmaker> hm. give it some time... dunno. Maybe it needs a few minutes to sync
17:36:07  <Ristovski> planetmaker: Yeah, I was thinking that too
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18:28:30  <Ristovski> planetmaker: lol, still nothing
18:32:01  <planetmaker> re-start your browser?
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18:42:02  <Eddi|zuHause> Ctrl+F5 if you suspect caching
18:43:07  <planetmaker> I can only go by what I see and set in phpldapadmin... there it's set
18:45:00  <planetmaker> totally different, I recently discovered that there's already syntax highlighting definitions for Geany and Notepad++, I added now one for kate as well ;-)
18:45:32  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25109 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2013-03-18 18:45:23 UTC)
18:45:33  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:34  <DorpsGek> german - 1 changes by planetmaker
18:45:35  <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:36  <DorpsGek> polish - 1 changes by xaxa
18:45:38  <DorpsGek> swedish - 3 changes by Joel_A
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18:54:09  <andythenorth> lolwut
18:54:14  <andythenorth> andythenorth in #openttd?
18:54:16  <andythenorth> shameful
18:54:21  <Supercheese> :O
18:55:26  * CornishPasty bans andythenorth
18:55:40  <planetmaker> pfft
18:55:46  <planetmaker> @voice andythenorth
18:55:52  <planetmaker> @whoami
18:55:52  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: I don't recognize you.
18:55:54  <planetmaker> ui
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18:56:51  <planetmaker> @op andythenorth
18:56:54  *** mode/#openttd [+o andythenorth] by DorpsGek
18:56:56  <planetmaker> try again, CornishPasty ;-)
18:57:03  <frosch123> @op CornishPasty
18:57:04  *** mode/#openttd [+o CornishPasty] by DorpsGek
18:57:04  <andythenorth> don't give me op :P
18:57:08  <frosch123> let's make it fair :p
18:57:11  <frosch123> @deop CornishPasty
18:57:11  *** mode/#openttd [-o CornishPasty] by DorpsGek
18:57:11  <andythenorth> imagine what would happen
18:57:19  <andythenorth> same reason I don't want mod on forums :P
18:57:33  <planetmaker> :D
18:58:26  <CornishPasty> I miss my @ :(
18:58:35  * CornishPasty changes nick to @CornishPasty
18:58:38  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I need your help in testing eints... I somehow fail to understand how to setup users
18:59:12  <andythenorth> ho
18:59:14  <andythenorth> me too :)
18:59:17  <andythenorth> no alberth?
18:59:36  <andythenorth> do you have an admin user?
18:59:54  <planetmaker> is what alberth gave me. But...
19:00:10  <planetmaker> ... no single user defined
19:02:03  <planetmaker> anyway, going by the pngs which alberth gave me there: IMHO uses too much vertical space
19:02:18  <planetmaker> the same info could be put on much less, thus less scrolling for small updates
19:02:42  <planetmaker> or maybe reverse order: then most important issues are top
19:02:46  <andythenorth> planetmaker: ./editsilly admin
19:03:13  <andythenorth> should get you a login
19:03:28  <planetmaker> how easy :-)
19:04:01  <andythenorth> if you know :P
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19:13:03  <V453000> oh my god look who is on the top of the list
19:13:05  <V453000> not him
19:14:44  <andythenorth> ?
19:15:51  <V453000> :P
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19:48:35  <andythenorth> I should add this to HEQS, it's about 200t
19:48:43  <andythenorth> biggest log truck right now is 140t :P
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19:53:17  <MNIM> hah
19:53:49  <MNIM> that thing eats long distance haulers for breakfast
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20:08:37  <Ristovski> planetmaker: restarted chrome, ctrl+f5'ed aswell, nothing
20:08:40  *** Flygon_ [] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
20:08:41  <Ristovski> I blame sql
20:11:20  <Ristovski> planetmaker: shall I try the ?
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20:15:25  <planetmaker> I have the feeling that the result will be an e-mail, Ristovski ;-)
20:15:34  <Ristovski> planetmaker: lol
20:15:46  <Ristovski> then idunno, the db hates me seems like
20:16:47  <Ristovski> planetmaker: hmm, btw, are you the head dev, I dont like when I speak to someone now knowing who he is, you seem like the head admin too
20:16:59  <planetmaker> neither
20:17:11  <__ln__> Ristovski: you mean "don't"
20:17:14  <Ristovski> ...
20:17:26  <Ristovski> planetmaker: well, didnt find your nick on dev list
20:17:36  <planetmaker> __ln__, he does mean that... but... it's a bit annoying ;-)
20:18:10  <Ristovski> planetmaker: "MacOSX / Support"
20:18:14  <planetmaker> look again, Ristovski ^
20:18:16  <Ristovski> youre more than that
20:18:20  <planetmaker> nope
20:18:31  <planetmaker> I'm 4 bits ;-)
20:18:42  <Ristovski> wat
20:18:49  <planetmaker> :D just trolling you
20:18:56  <Zuu> andythenorth: They are evaluating log trucks with extra trailers in sweden:
20:19:08  <Ristovski> planetmaker: in the wiki, it says "planetmaker	 MacOSX / Support"
20:19:18  <planetmaker> so it says also on the dev page
20:19:32  <planetmaker> though osx... meh
20:19:36  <Ristovski> is that true, you seem more than just support
20:19:38  <planetmaker> should delete that
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20:19:49  <V453000> :D
20:19:58  <V453000> :P
20:20:21  <V453000> pm is like your first aid, sometimes also the last aid
20:20:37  <planetmaker> Ristovski, it#s all a rough guide. Everyone does what he can and wants to do. Within the agreed "limits"
20:20:53  <Ristovski> ah
20:21:14  <planetmaker> though I really think that caring about translations goes under "support" :-)
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20:21:43  <andythenorth> Zuu: loads of trees on those trucks :)
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20:25:35  <planetmaker> holy cow. can it be that the images are huge, Zuu? :D
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20:27:07  <andythenorth> pretty big yes
20:28:43  <Zuu> planetmaker: Those images are in the press section and possible they though press people want large images.
20:29:00  <planetmaker> well, they might even be right there :-)
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20:30:05  <Zuu> There are some data here:
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20:30:11  <Zuu> But only in Swedish.
20:31:03  <Zuu> Basically it says that they allow 90 tonnes instead of 60 for the total weight of the vehicle. Load weight is 64 instead of 38-42.
20:31:56  * andythenorth wonders where the boundary between HEQS and BANDIT is
20:32:01  <andythenorth> these are on-highway trucks
20:32:04  <andythenorth> that's BANDIT
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20:32:30  <andythenorth> @calc 1.5 * 64
20:32:30  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 96
20:33:21  <Zuu> There is also some test cases where they keep the standard 24 m length but testing with total weights above 60 tonnes.
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21:23:07  <frosch123> night
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21:34:05  <andythenorth> should the buy menu report auto-refittability?
21:35:34  <planetmaker> yes
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21:39:34  <andythenorth> as a newgrf thing, or ottd should do it?
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21:40:15  <planetmaker> hm :-) good question
21:40:20  <planetmaker> I think NewGRF must do it
21:40:22  <andythenorth> '(autorefittable)' | '(refittable)' in capacity string?
21:40:33  <planetmaker> as openttd cannot decide whether autorefit between to cargos works
21:40:36  <andythenorth> it's already there, just switch the string according to the property
21:40:39  <planetmaker> it's in newgrf hands
21:40:49  <andythenorth> but yes, the ability of newgrf to break autorefit is very bad
21:41:02  <andythenorth> that should be removed imho
21:41:15  <andythenorth> cue wailing
21:41:45  <andythenorth> 'nothing must be removed ever, even bad things' :P
21:42:28  <planetmaker> :-)
21:42:47  <Eddi|zuHause> something broke civ4 :/
21:42:59  <andythenorth> remove it :P
21:43:00  <Eddi|zuHause> (or civ4col as well)
21:43:59  <Eddi|zuHause> getting lots of "GL_INVALID_FRAMEBUFFER_OPERATION (0x506)" and a black screen
21:44:10  <andythenorth> cb 15E should stop checking bit 14, and assume it's always set
21:44:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i just tried my backup from before the system update, and there it worked :/
21:44:22  <andythenorth> anyone who complains we broke their newgrf is wrong :P
21:44:36  <andythenorth> they are breaking orders currently for players
21:45:03  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you're not making any sense
21:45:15  <andythenorth> for why?
21:45:36  <andythenorth> ENoContext?  ENoSense?
21:46:00  <Eddi|zuHause> cb 15E does not check anything that the newgrf author did not explicitly specify
21:46:15  <andythenorth> yes
21:46:19  <andythenorth> that is the problem
21:46:37  <andythenorth> author can disallow autorefit according to arbitrary conditions
21:46:50  <Eddi|zuHause> so?
21:46:52  <andythenorth> which provably breaks vehicle orders, with no feedback
21:47:07  <andythenorth> it's a dumb feature in retrospect
21:47:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you're arguing some non-issue, but i can't be sure
21:47:29  <andythenorth> I suppose I could also set vehicle speed to 0 according to atrbitrary conditions
21:47:33  <andythenorth> so same difference
21:47:36  <andythenorth> maybe non-issue
21:48:45  <andythenorth> what is the utility of being able to prevent auto-refit in a cb?
21:49:35  <Eddi|zuHause> that graphics don't change mid-transportation, of course... :p
21:50:12  <andythenorth> and that is more important than having valid orders, of course... :)
21:50:57  <Eddi|zuHause> it's up to the grf coder to make this a "all or none" thing
21:51:13  <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to have custom refit cost without allowing autorefit at all
21:51:25  <Eddi|zuHause> like, adding/removing articulated parts
21:51:51  <andythenorth> I honestly think this specific case is too fragile for grf coders
21:51:58  <andythenorth> I don't think they do it right
21:52:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't seen anybody do it at all...
21:52:19  <andythenorth> pikka does it
21:52:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and?
21:52:29  <andythenorth> I think ogfx+ does it
21:52:31  <andythenorth> broken orders
21:52:51  <andythenorth> FISH 2 did it until I discovered the issue
21:53:09  <andythenorth> but anyway
21:53:29  * andythenorth leaves it alone
21:55:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll play around with backups some more :/
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22:36:16  <Terkhen> good night
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