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00:00:56 <Core_Xii> is there an overview of how NewGRF work? I'm not at all clear how they integrate with the game. they consist of callbacks or something? 00:03:02 <Supercheese> Hmm 00:03:23 <Supercheese> Well, the NewGRF technical discussion has a lot of stuff http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=68 00:03:32 <Supercheese> nothing particularly condensed for easy reading 00:04:04 <Core_Xii> is it like data definition, like a markup language, that OpenTTD reads when it needs to, or more like an interpreted programming language? 00:04:26 <Supercheese> They're like add-ons 00:04:34 <Supercheese> Firefox extensions, I guess are somewhat analogous 00:04:37 <glx> it's a mix of data definition and interpreted language 00:04:48 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:04:52 <Supercheese> Firefox/Chrome/your favorite browser add-ons 00:05:14 <Core_Xii> ok. so OTTD calls some parts of the NGRF when it does stuff, like generates an industry? 00:05:44 <Supercheese> OTTD loads selected NewGRFs on game start, and those become an integral part of that game (.sav game) 00:05:48 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 00:06:02 <Core_Xii> how does currency conversion work? 00:06:20 <glx> fixed rate 00:06:21 <Supercheese> Well, I think the GBP is 2x the USD 00:06:27 <Supercheese> which is not very realistic :P 00:06:37 <glx> and everything is in GBP internally :) 00:06:40 <Supercheese> but yeah, fixed it seems 00:06:52 <Core_Xii> OTTD has an internal currency, right? the same that's exposed to AIs? then the UI converts it for display? 00:07:27 <Core_Xii> I guess you answered those 00:07:29 <Supercheese> as glx said, internal units are the same as the displayed GBP 00:07:53 <Core_Xii> is there any currency with exchange rate less than 1 compared to GBP? 00:07:59 <Supercheese> although I'm taking his word for that, I haven't checked myself :P 00:08:18 <Core_Xii> and if so, how does that currency handle amounts less than 1 GBP? 00:08:20 <glx> only integer 00:09:07 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd 00:14:38 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 00:14:40 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd 00:34:23 <Core_Xii> can industries change appearance based on whether they're subsidized? 00:40:46 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6CA30.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:44:59 <Eddi|zuHause> not that i know of 00:51:21 *** SpComb^_ [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd 00:51:21 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:51:41 <glx> it should be doable by abusing animation frames 00:52:15 <Core_Xii> glx: which thing should be doable? 00:52:19 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: how would an industry learn that it's target of a subsidy? 00:52:33 <Core_Xii> I don't know, callback 00:52:47 <Eddi|zuHause> (unless he meant it's funded by a player) 00:53:05 <Core_Xii> no, meant literal subsidies 00:53:49 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, i don't recall ever seeing this information being exposed to newgrfs 00:54:19 <glx> hmm indeed it's not available 00:55:22 <Core_Xii> how does an industry tile decide on its sprite? I don't think I spotted this info on NML:Industries 00:56:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Core_Xii: all items decide its sprites upon the "default" callback in the gaphics section 00:56:17 <Core_Xii> oh... industry property.... layouts? Tilelayout 00:56:18 <Eddi|zuHause> *their 00:56:49 <Eddi|zuHause> there are "spritelayouts" and such, but i never dealt with those 00:57:23 <Core_Xii> ahh yes I see, default industry tile callback 00:57:40 <Core_Xii> what's the "Sprite layout" return type? 00:57:55 <Eddi|zuHause> a spriteset 00:59:16 <Core_Xii> can an industry tile dynamically compose its appearance from multiple overlapping sprites? 00:59:32 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 00:59:46 <Core_Xii> so e.g. overlay fences depending on adjacent tiles 00:59:53 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 01:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> concerning fences, you might want to check out the "OpenGFX+Landscape" GRF as an example, it has grassland with fences 01:00:52 <Eddi|zuHause> (as objects, but the graphics part should be similar) 01:45:08 <Core_Xii> is there any way to affect cargo payment rate based on which industry it's delivered to? 01:45:32 <Core_Xii> i.e. have two different industries accepting the same cargo, but with differing payment rates 01:45:54 *** SpComb^_ [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:45:56 *** SpComb [terom@zapotek.paivola.fi] has joined #openttd 01:46:12 <Core_Xii> can an industry accept AND produce the SAME cargo? 01:53:53 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-253.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 01:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, e.g. the bank in the default industries 01:57:08 <Core_Xii> oh yea. cargo tracks where it came from, so you can't just transport it right back to its source, correct? 01:58:04 <Eddi|zuHause> depends-ish 01:58:18 <Eddi|zuHause> it only tracks which station it was loaded from 01:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can't unload it at the same station 01:58:54 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-057-001.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 01:58:59 <Core_Xii> so you could have two stations at the same bank, transporting valuables from one to the other? :P 01:59:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember reading something about a minimum distance travelled, or you wouldn't get paid, but i have never tested thaqt 02:00:36 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 02:14:12 *** Core_Xii [~Core_Xii@a88-115-204-171.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has left #openttd [] 02:22:06 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:28:43 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye !] 02:48:37 *** Extrems1 [borgs@24.157.137.219] has joined #openttd 02:52:19 *** Extrems [borgs@24.157.137.219] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:14:34 *** Extrems1 [borgs@24.157.137.219] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 04:47:24 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail] 05:24:25 *** Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 05:26:25 *** Dewin [~Daniel@c-76-28-131-143.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 05:31:57 *** Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-3-118.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 05:44:56 <Supercheese> GRFcrawker borked 05:45:00 <Supercheese> crawler* 05:53:40 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25105 /branches/1.3 (7 files in 5 dirs) (2013-03-18 05:53:35 UTC) 05:53:41 <DorpsGek> [1.3] -Prepare: for 1.3.0-RC3 05:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5D41.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 05:56:19 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:00:19 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25106 tags/1.3.0-RC3/ (2013-03-18 06:00:14 UTC) 06:00:20 <DorpsGek> -Release: 1.3.0-RC3 06:04:11 *** Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-3-118.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:18:11 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25107 /trunk (config.lib findversion.sh) (2013-03-18 06:18:06 UTC) 06:18:12 <DorpsGek> -Change: be slightly more lenient with trying to detect a subversion repository in case someone has a sparse tags checkout. In that case the .svn folder misses from the $ROOT_DIR because it is in the $ROOT_DIR/.. (i.e. tags) folder 06:27:53 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 06:27:56 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 06:29:01 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5ac158d4.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:33:05 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-43-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:40:26 <Terkhen> good morning 06:52:50 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-46-242-13-101.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 06:53:02 *** sla_ro|master [sla_romas@89.137.75.224] has joined #openttd 06:58:53 *** Bonez305 [~kvirc@c-50-150-145-145.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 06:58:57 <Bonez305> Hi 06:59:32 <Bonez305> anyone run a debian server ? 07:04:19 <Bonez305> If having dificulties locating where the openttd file was installed 07:11:08 <Supercheese> good night 07:11:11 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 07:20:08 *** Twofish [~Twofish@0001308f.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 07:21:53 <dihedral> good morning 07:22:34 <Twofish> 'morning 07:22:40 <Twofish> moooonday :/ 07:23:18 <Twofish> Seem to come before I realise that the week end has started... 07:38:12 *** M1zera [~Miranda@ip-78-102-228-126.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 07:41:48 *** mortisha [4f8de4c2@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 07:49:40 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-156-148.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:57:36 *** mortisha [4f8de4c2@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 07:57:36 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-023-042.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 07:57:43 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-156-148.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 07:58:33 *** pachuco [4f8de4c2@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 08:02:58 *** pachuco [4f8de4c2@ircip1.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 08:08:41 *** bitter [4f8de4c2@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 08:12:19 *** bitter [4f8de4c2@ircip2.mibbit.com] has quit [] 08:18:27 *** pachuco [4f8de4c2@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 08:20:25 *** pachuco [4f8de4c2@ircip1.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 08:23:04 *** SpyroTheDragon [4f8de4c2@ircip3.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 08:27:26 <SpyroTheDragon> Hello all! Sorrry for my so-so english. I'm learning for compilation OpenTTD in Visual Studio 2010 Express. In Wiki there is a text that I must load open_vs90.sln. But what difference between this and open_vs100.sln? 08:28:14 <TinoDidriksen> vs90 is VS 2008 08:28:34 <TinoDidriksen> I'd expect you should use vs100 since that's the VS 2010 version number. 08:30:27 <SpyroTheDragon> ou, thanks, it's done :) 08:31:05 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-023-042.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:37:56 <V453000> I broke openttd? :( http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5508 08:41:06 <Bonez305> Hey everyone ! 08:44:34 <SpyroTheDragon> hey 08:51:10 <SpyroTheDragon> guys! After compilation OpenTTD in VS2010 where I can find my game (.exe)? 08:51:17 <V453000> another strange thing: NUTS adds an universal rail. I have defined that railtype as UNIV with number ID of 15. Now I added "WETRails", I gave them ID 12 and they are put before univrail in the code. When I update from the old newGRF to the new, univ rail is changed to WETRails, even though the IDs should be taking care of that? :( 08:55:41 <V453000> swapping them around in the code solves it, but wtf :o 08:56:08 <V453000> of course that also causes the WETR to be below UNIV in the railtype list, which is ugly :( 08:56:28 <V453000> do the railtype numeric IDs have any effect? 09:03:05 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-023-042.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 09:06:08 *** SpyroTheDragon [4f8de4c2@ircip3.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 09:06:44 <V453000> guess I could use the railtype sorting, but still a weird thing 09:13:05 <planetmaker> moin 09:13:23 <V453000> hai pm 09:13:30 <V453000> everything is breaking here :( 09:20:28 <planetmaker> just saw that... not good 09:20:37 <planetmaker> but good that you find it ;-) 09:20:54 <planetmaker> though technically, changing the NewGRF on a running game might have that effect, so that might not be an actual bug 09:20:58 <V453000> :p drawing NINE loading stages makes you investigate :D 09:21:11 <planetmaker> the other one... very strange. But there's some issues i nthat code as of late 09:21:15 <V453000> I guess, but what is the numeric railtype ID for then? 09:21:27 <planetmaker> that ID defines the sort-order in the GUI 09:21:32 <planetmaker> lower ID is up 09:21:34 <V453000> also without changing newGRFs in game, they still are "15" above "12" if I just swap the code 09:21:46 <V453000> that doesnt work either :s 09:21:52 <planetmaker> or vice versa. I don't recall 09:22:07 <V453000> I had 1 2 3 4 15 12 09:22:20 <V453000> just because I swapped the two last in the code 09:22:41 <V453000> I did make a workaround and use the sort_order thingy, but the numeric ID seems to be doing nothing 09:24:43 <planetmaker> if you use sort order, the ID is pointless 09:24:53 <V453000> nono, without sort order 09:24:55 <planetmaker> then the ID defines the sort order wrt other concurrently loaded sets 09:25:03 <V453000> I used the sort order after I noticed it isnt working 09:25:08 <planetmaker> but... well. I never looked at that code 09:25:36 <V453000> hehe, well it does have a solution, but there is some strange behaviour there 09:26:45 <planetmaker> hm, which ID do you actually mean? 09:27:26 <V453000> item (FEAT_RAILTYPES, WETR, 12){ the 12 09:28:19 <dihedral> TrueBrain, what's the current state for the usage of *.noaddedsugar.net ? 09:28:55 <planetmaker> ok... and swapping them has no effect you say (when no sort order is defined)? 09:28:57 <V453000> this is the code of all my railtypes http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2161/ without the sort_order, 12 will show below 15 because they are that way in the code. If I just swap them in the code, it will swap them too - and make the newGRF also break with changing newGRF in game 09:29:08 <V453000> it has some effect 09:29:18 <V453000> it has the effect of which railtype changes how when updating newGRFs 09:29:31 <V453000> but of course it does not change the order in the menu as sort_order defines that 09:30:37 <V453000> so, when NUTS47 had 5 railtypes with the 5th one being UNIV rail, NUTS48 must have 5th UNIV too, but adding the WETR as 6th 09:31:14 <V453000> otherwise the UNIV -> WETR borkdown when changing newGRFs in running game 09:32:44 <V453000> from which I come to a conclusion that the 12 or 15 do not matter at all 09:32:56 <V453000> as only the order in the code seems to 09:34:41 <V453000> does the thing I wrote make any sense? :d 09:36:28 <planetmaker> changing NewGRFs in a running game need not work 09:36:34 <planetmaker> that's not a bug per se 09:37:04 <V453000> well sure I dont say that, but it shows how the ID is not doing much 09:37:08 <planetmaker> what IMHO should work is that the ID defines sort order when it is not given explicitly 09:37:22 <V453000> yeah 09:37:24 <V453000> indeed 09:37:43 <planetmaker> does it do that (for new games)? I understood your report it does not? 09:38:03 <V453000> yeah sure, same behaviour with new games 09:38:38 <V453000> obviously nothing breaks that way, but the order of the railtypes still is swapped (unless I use sort_order) 09:42:44 <V453000> on another note, the loading stages thingy apparently happened since RC2 09:43:02 <V453000> and 25071 already does it 09:44:24 <planetmaker> would be nice to know which version broke it - or at least roughly pinpoint where it breaks :-) 09:46:10 <V453000> wow 09:46:17 <V453000> @25069 [25069] 13 days frosch -Release 1.3.0-RC2 09:46:23 <V453000> and 25071 breaks 09:46:37 <planetmaker> but RC2 not? 09:46:37 <V453000> the only changes seem to be in the webtranslator http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/?action=stop_on_copy&mode=stop_on_copy&rev=25071&stop_rev=&limit=100 09:46:39 <V453000> how :o 09:46:50 <V453000> yep 09:47:00 <planetmaker> well. nightly is not 1.3 branch. There are some differences already 09:47:43 <V453000> true 09:48:22 <planetmaker> basically RC1 is when branch-off happens 09:48:37 <V453000> 25016-25012 seem to be some changes around that area 09:48:38 <planetmaker> http://hg.openttd.org/openttd/trunk.hg/rev/bab7c5e9c54e I suspect 09:49:12 <planetmaker> and those others you mention, yes 09:49:13 <V453000> yeah 09:49:42 <planetmaker> cargodist breaks it ;-) 09:49:57 <V453000> cargodist in trunk? 09:50:01 <planetmaker> nope 09:50:13 <V453000> then how can it break it :D 09:50:16 <planetmaker> but those are preparatory parts of it 09:50:27 <V453000> :D 09:50:32 <V453000> breaks stuff before existence 09:51:24 <planetmaker> so trunk is broken, RC is not. That's good :D 09:52:04 <V453000> :) 09:52:36 <planetmaker> r25k is branching of course :D 09:53:03 <V453000> sense :) 09:54:04 <planetmaker> ah, good, you added the rev reference already to the issue 09:54:28 <V453000> yez 10:09:13 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-156-148.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:29:30 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-156-148.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 10:39:25 *** Guilux [~Guilux@chenapan.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:46:31 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-253.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 10:51:14 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-156-148.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:57:32 *** sla_ro|master [sla_romas@89.137.75.224] has quit [Quit: connection reset by myself] 10:59:51 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:00:54 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-11-227.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 11:02:03 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-156-148.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 11:04:55 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 11:06:11 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:11:35 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@212.36.5.170] has joined #openttd 11:21:06 *** Bonez305 [~kvirc@c-50-150-145-145.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:25:00 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-253.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 11:39:47 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has joined #openttd 11:43:44 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 11:49:11 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 11:54:14 *** Bonez305 [~kvirc@c-50-150-145-145.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 11:58:12 *** Pulec [pulec@unaffilated.amunak.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:00:51 *** ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 12:06:08 *** Pulec [pulec@unaffilated.amunak.net] has joined #openttd 12:20:09 *** Pulec [pulec@unaffilated.amunak.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:28:06 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:32:25 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail] 12:40:29 <blathijs> Hmm, is it me or is this snippet from the "Musicdriver" wiki page incorrect: "extmidi: Enables an external midi device, from the sound cards midi/game port" 12:40:55 <blathijs> AFAIU extmidi means an external midi driver, not an external midi port 12:41:10 <blathijs> e.g., external process for midi playback 12:41:11 *** Pulec [pulec@unaffilated.amunak.net] has joined #openttd 12:44:12 *** Ristovski [~rafael@78.157.7.34] has joined #openttd 12:51:10 *** Maedhros_ [~maedhros@46.208.133.220] has joined #openttd 12:56:43 *** Maedhros [~maedhros@87.115.229.71] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:12:16 *** Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-3-118.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 13:12:41 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-156-148.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:14:24 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d173-183-156-148.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 13:14:34 * Pikka blames peter1138 13:15:11 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:15:33 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:26:09 <V453000> whaaat 07 did not win? Unfair! 13:28:35 <peter1138> what 13:28:47 <V453000> teh title gaym 13:29:15 <Eddi|zuHause> so, which one did win? 13:30:18 <V453000> 07 13:41:22 <__ln__> but kimi's number is 7 and he won. 14:05:03 <Bonez305> anyone running a server on linux ? 14:10:47 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has joined #openttd 14:16:52 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, NML parameter stuffing: would it make sense to make the assignment statement "[<type>] <name> = <value>", with <type> ::= { "bit" | "byte" | "word" | "dword" }, so that NML can fit multiple named parameters into one GRF-parameter? 14:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause> defaults to "dword" for backwards compatibility 14:29:34 *** oskari892 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 14:34:59 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:45:13 <DorpsGek> Commit by matthijs :: r25108 trunk/Makefile.src.in (2013-03-18 14:45:06 UTC) 14:45:14 <DorpsGek> -Fix: Pass $LDFLAGS_BUILD to all endian_check compilations. 14:45:15 <DorpsGek> - In Makefile.{lang,setting}.in the flags were already passed since r24365. 14:46:46 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:57:23 *** oskari892 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:57:51 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 15:07:04 <Ristovski> hmm, I might be able to translate to Macedonian 15:07:40 <planetmaker> Ristovski, http://translator.openttd.org/en/faq explains how to apply 15:08:14 <Ristovski> ok 15:08:45 <planetmaker> a macedonian translator would be highly welcome. Much work ahead there ;-) 15:09:21 <Ristovski> I know, I can see ;D 15:09:26 <Ristovski> only 28% done :D 15:09:33 <planetmaker> basically: register with OpenTTD, send the login and desired language to our translator e-mail address and we'll assign you to the macedonian translation 15:09:51 <Ristovski> planetmaker: already all done :D 15:09:55 <planetmaker> and then you can start translating using the web translator. Oh, ok 15:10:30 <planetmaker> then expect a reply later this evening. I don't have openttd e-mail at work 15:10:54 <Ristovski> ok, sure 15:11:11 <Ristovski> planetmaker: why does http://translator.openttd.org/en/signup/ exist too? 15:11:46 <planetmaker> he, I didn't know it exists :-) 15:12:11 <Ristovski> lol, but nvm, already sent the email :D 15:12:51 <Ristovski> I think I can also try to translate some wiki pages into Macedonian aswell 15:12:57 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:12:57 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 15:12:58 <Ristovski> it will take some time tho 15:13:10 <planetmaker> sure. you need no special permission for that. Please go right ahead :-) 15:13:22 <Ristovski> oh, ok :D 15:16:07 <Ristovski> planetmaker: hmm, how can I edit http://wiki.openttd.org/Category:Articles_in_other_languages, the caption for the czech lang. is wrong 15:16:16 <Ristovski> am I allowed to edit it? 15:16:55 <planetmaker> wiki is wiki. People may edit it to change / improve / add what they think is wrong or needs adding or clarification 15:17:12 <Ristovski> ok 15:17:59 <planetmaker> though you linked a category page... that's mostly automatically generated by wiki 15:18:24 *** Twofish [~Twofish@0001308f.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:19:17 <Ristovski> planetmaker: hmm, is this a bug or something, I changed the |cs= tho it didnt change the text in the category 15:19:28 <Ristovski> aka in the [Category:Translation]] 15:20:00 <Ristovski> oh, its the pages name 15:20:03 <planetmaker> yes 15:20:14 <planetmaker> it should stay, I guess ;-) 15:20:58 <Ristovski> hmm, so I cant rename the page? 15:21:02 <Ristovski> since the title is wrong 15:21:14 *** Core_Xii [~Core_Xii@a88-115-204-171.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 15:21:28 <planetmaker> it's feasible... but it involves changes in a few places 15:21:39 <Core_Xii> what determines the selling price of vehicles? 15:21:50 <planetmaker> and I know it neither by heart nor can I properly explain tha from scratch on IRC 15:22:06 <Ristovski> planetmaker: oh ok, also, lol someone seems to have used google translate to translate it, 40% is wrong 15:22:20 <planetmaker> sounds bad, Ristovski :-) 15:22:24 <Ristovski> indeed 15:22:27 <V453000> im sure there is some cost_multiplier property or something like that Core_Xii 15:22:30 <planetmaker> but there's no way for us to check as non-native speaker 15:22:42 <Ristovski> planetmaker: I am a native speaker :D 15:22:55 <planetmaker> Core_Xii, the purchase cost and then the sale price is the same, but reduced over time 15:23:02 <V453000> cost_factor 0 ... 255 Set to 0 multiplier to the base purchase cost 15:23:05 <planetmaker> probably over the lifetime of the vehicle 15:23:05 <Ristovski> I speak both Macedonian and Czech, I also know Serbian, so I can help in translating there aswell 15:23:30 <Core_Xii> that's purchase cost. but what of selling? 15:23:37 <planetmaker> Ristovski, yes, you do :-) But people who are notnative speakers can't even notice 15:23:46 <Ristovski> planetmaker: I can imagine 15:23:46 <planetmaker> Core_Xii, as I said... 15:23:50 <V453000> why do you want to change selling but not purchase? :D 15:24:27 <Core_Xii> but how is it reduced over time? 15:24:37 <Core_Xii> some factor of vehicle age? 15:24:41 <planetmaker> likely 15:24:51 <__ln__> 17:20 < Ristovski> hmm, so I cant rename the page? <--- you mean "can't" 15:25:02 <Ristovski> __ln__: *sigh* 15:25:21 <V453000> I havent seen anyone correct that on irc for ages :D 15:25:23 <Ristovski> why do you even bother 15:25:25 <Core_Xii> V453000: I want to change selling ratio to discourage a certain strategy.. of buying vehicles, sending them one-way, selling after unloading (easy for AIs, difficult for humans) 15:25:47 <planetmaker> Core_Xii, that requires changes to openttd's code. Not Newgrf-able 15:25:50 <Core_Xii> that is, to make it more economical to KEEP a train than continue buying and selling them 15:25:52 <V453000> only retards do that ... if they enjoy the game that way, why not 15:25:55 <Core_Xii> that's unfortunate 15:26:07 <V453000> my solution would be to just simply make costs of trains low 15:26:15 <Ristovski> oh my god, if i ever go into translating I will alot of job 15:26:25 <V453000> therefore making the network big quickly with low costs means the selling trick isnt effective 15:26:39 <Core_Xii> not AS effective, yes, but still strictly superior 15:27:03 <V453000> well, high costs are boring anyway 15:27:08 <planetmaker> Core_Xii, that strategy works for maybe the first 5 years (ingame). Then it's ineffective 15:27:18 <Core_Xii> why would it become ineffective? 15:27:22 <planetmaker> thus solving that is solving a problem which practically doesn't exist 15:27:28 <V453000> and if you have a lot of trains quickly, nobody can do that effectively 15:27:34 <Core_Xii> an AI can 15:27:35 <planetmaker> you could make more money by expanding your network instead of micro-managing your trains 15:27:41 <V453000> who cares about an AI ... 15:27:49 <V453000> and why would use an AI which does that 15:27:49 <Core_Xii> since I'm developing one, I sure do 15:27:49 <planetmaker> AIs can, yes. But... don't play with bad AIs. 15:27:58 <Core_Xii> no, that's GOOD AI 15:27:59 <planetmaker> or don't write a bad AI 15:28:06 <Core_Xii> it's a fault in OpenTTD's design 15:28:13 <planetmaker> not really 15:28:14 <Core_Xii> exploiting it is playing well 15:28:18 <V453000> it is a fault in openttds design that your AI does -that- ? 15:28:30 <V453000> OpenTTD is absolutely not about money 15:28:33 <Core_Xii> no, it's a fault in OpenTTD that it's superior and only AI can do it 15:28:38 <Core_Xii> the game part of it is 15:28:39 <planetmaker> Core_Xii, Rondje does (or at least did) do that 15:28:40 <V453000> sooner or later any player can buy anything 15:28:44 <Core_Xii> I'm uninterested in realism simulations 15:29:13 <V453000> how is the R-word related in this context :d 15:29:28 <planetmaker> Core_Xii, if an AI does that for its advantage, it deserves that. It's at a disadvantage wrt players anyway 15:29:32 <V453000> if your AI is doing crap, why code it that way? :D 15:29:45 <Core_Xii> it's not crap, it's good play 15:29:57 <V453000> why is it good playing? 15:29:57 <Core_Xii> but it's an asymmetry between AIs and human players, which I dislike 15:30:03 <Core_Xii> because it makes more profit 15:30:09 <V453000> profit is totally irrelevant 15:30:14 <planetmaker> Core_Xii, purchase = sale price is good design though 15:30:23 <Core_Xii> if you use OpenTTD as a toy, yes, profit is irrelevant 15:30:31 <planetmaker> you can test a train. and sell it w/o loss really if it doesn't fulfill its purpose 15:30:31 <Core_Xii> but if you play it as a game, profit is everything 15:30:33 <V453000> openttd isnt a game? 15:30:36 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 15:30:41 <V453000> what 15:30:47 *** goodger [~ben@host86-143-75-37.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: goodger] 15:30:49 <planetmaker> it kills fun if a wrong klick kills the game for you in the starting stages 15:30:53 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has joined #openttd 15:30:56 <V453000> why would you even care about profit after 1 hour of playing 15:31:04 <V453000> as you can buy literally anything at that point 15:31:12 <Core_Xii> your comment demonstrates how badly OpenTTD sucks as a game 15:31:14 <planetmaker> So having a huge penalty there... I'd not advise. And thus I think the current design is more rewarding 15:31:37 <V453000> OpenTTD is imo the best game ever made 15:31:38 <Terkhen> I know that one of you is trolling, but I'm unsure on who 15:31:41 <planetmaker> whose, Core_Xii ? 15:31:47 *** goodger [~ben@host86-143-75-37.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 15:31:58 <planetmaker> Hi Terkhen :-) 15:32:05 <Core_Xii> OpenTTD is a great toy. like SimCity. but it's not a good game at all. games have goals and challenges 15:32:08 <Pikka> I haven't tried it and I couldn't be less interested in this discussion, but can you alter the value of the vehicle with cb36 after it is bought, or does prop 17 only apply to unbuilt vehicles and/or globally to a vehicle ID? 15:32:15 <Terkhen> :P 15:32:25 <Pikka> hello Terkhen and planetmaker 15:32:29 <planetmaker> hi Pikka :-) 15:32:33 <Terkhen> hi ;) 15:32:54 <V453000> Core_Xii: build 3000 trains on 512x512, not challenging enough? 15:33:08 <Core_Xii> that's an arbitrary, player-defined goal 15:33:11 <Terkhen> Core_Xii: goals are implemented by goal scripts 15:33:15 <planetmaker> Core_Xii, did you play with e.g. the game script "silicon valley"? 15:33:21 <Core_Xii> not yet 15:33:25 <V453000> no, it is set by the game cause we needed that much thorughput for the cargo produced 15:33:31 <planetmaker> try that. Then continue to swear about goal absence 15:33:51 <Core_Xii> I'm not swearing about goal absence 15:34:03 <Core_Xii> I'm trying to figure out how to balance an exploit available to AIs only 15:34:06 <V453000> you said there are no goals or challenges? 15:34:10 <Terkhen> and having said that, player set goals are very valid in my opinion, in the sense that they provide a challenge and a sensation of success 15:34:15 <Terkhen> depending on the player, of course 15:34:17 <V453000> do not use it for AIs? LOL 15:34:22 * Terkhen reads back to know the exploit 15:34:23 <planetmaker> Core_Xii, it needs no balancing. I beat every AI there is. Whether it uses that trick or not 15:34:36 <Core_Xii> because AI haven't matured yet 15:34:37 <planetmaker> Terkhen, rondje trick: buy, send one-way. sell 15:34:52 <Terkhen> but that was fixed years ago 15:35:00 <Core_Xii> how was it fixed? 15:35:06 <V453000> AIs will never be comparable to human players 15:35:08 <Terkhen> with the unload fix, I doubt that it is as profitable as it ws in rondje times 15:35:12 <Terkhen> was* 15:35:13 <V453000> no matter how much you want 15:35:26 <Core_Xii> that's your opinion 15:35:29 <planetmaker> nah, not that, Terkhen :-) But that it is better to send vehicles one-way 15:35:37 <Terkhen> it may give you a certain edge, but a smart player will still triumph over the AI 15:35:51 <Core_Xii> only until AIs get smart enough 15:35:53 <Terkhen> the AI will waste a lot of computer cycles doing that, and they are limited 15:36:01 <planetmaker> Core_Xii, anyway. I think with the grand scheme you design: this is the least of your worries 15:36:07 <Terkhen> that level of micromanage will force your AI to stay small 15:36:11 * V453000 awaits for the reults of coding GOD-AI by Core_Xii 15:36:20 <Core_Xii> does it really waste a lot of cycles to 1) duplicate some vehicles, 2) start them? 15:36:30 <Terkhen> I don't know, I'm no expert in AI code 15:36:36 <Terkhen> but it wastes more cycles than doing nothing :P 15:36:40 <planetmaker> ^ 15:36:55 <Core_Xii> question is, is it more profitable to do it than not 15:37:08 <planetmaker> possibly 15:37:15 <Terkhen> in the short term probably, in the long term it is harmful 15:37:21 <Core_Xii> if your trains run empty, doing nothing, half the time, that seems pretty uneconomical 15:37:35 <Core_Xii> basically doubling your running costs 15:37:38 <V453000> you can refit trains to reach up to 100% theoretical full-load time 15:37:41 <planetmaker> use proper wagons, make them run with different cargos at different ways forth and back 15:37:45 <planetmaker> --> more profit 15:37:53 <Pikka> or even the same cargo 15:37:58 <planetmaker> or even that :-) 15:37:59 <V453000> planetmaker: that still totals 50% empty :P 15:38:00 <Core_Xii> that's true. few industry sets allow such back and forth though 15:38:09 <planetmaker> V453000, how that? 15:38:13 <V453000> yeah, all of them 15:38:26 <Pikka> fine, I'll try it. 15:38:34 <planetmaker> 500 tile journey full. 20 tile to next pickup empty. 500 tiles back full. 20 tiles to original pickup empty 15:38:40 <V453000> pm: well cargo A wagons full on the way back, cargo B wagons on the way there, but still the other half is empty half of the time 15:38:47 <planetmaker> V453000, auto-refit 15:38:48 <Core_Xii> autorefit 15:38:58 <V453000> :D no comment 15:39:00 <planetmaker> or even manual in depot. doesn't matter 15:39:07 <planetmaker> still you got 90% full wagons 15:39:07 <V453000> but lets consider it to be the same as refit for this scenario 15:39:15 <V453000> ye 15:39:25 <planetmaker> manual as in set in orders 15:39:27 <V453000> depending on station rating,mostly around 90% 15:39:31 <planetmaker> doesn't need a click 15:39:37 <V453000> yeah sure 15:40:31 *** Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 15:40:32 <planetmaker> the thing which does IMHO need an overhaul are breakdowns 15:40:42 <Pikka> mm newbreakdowns 15:40:43 <V453000> +1 15:40:49 <planetmaker> It needs imho a scheme where there are no breakdowns when you service regularily. 15:40:57 <planetmaker> And like now when you don't service them 15:40:57 <V453000> there should be a reward for the player who services properly 15:41:03 <V453000> ye 15:41:15 <Terkhen> disable breakdowns, done :P 15:41:33 <planetmaker> yes... but it makes the reliability properties totally useless. Frosch is right there ;-) 15:41:46 <planetmaker> of course I do that all the time ;-) 15:41:59 <V453000> Core_Xii: http://www.openttdcoop.org/files/publicserver_archive/PublicServerGame_234_Final.sav typical refit game with very high % of loaded trains on the network 15:42:33 <Core_Xii> I know I don't need reference 15:43:35 <planetmaker> btw, Core_Xii : you brush away Eddi's well-founded hint that it's more reasonable to do the project piecewise. 15:43:52 <planetmaker> Doing so does not imply - like you suggest - to use different designs for the different NewGRFs 15:44:05 <planetmaker> It just means that it consists of different modules 15:44:17 <Core_Xii> planetmaker: did you read my reply? 15:44:22 <planetmaker> yes, I did. 15:44:29 <planetmaker> it doesn't make sense to me 15:44:55 <Core_Xii> it's not compatible with anything else at the moment, and no part works without the others, so I don't see how it can be split up at all, except for music 15:45:05 <Core_Xii> and maybe UI graphics 15:45:17 <planetmaker> that's not a counter-argument against what eddi said 15:45:38 <planetmaker> you will have houses. you will have trains, ships, rv, planes, industries, stations 15:45:45 <planetmaker> thus that separation into those is kinda natural 15:45:52 <planetmaker> whether you use a common design or not 15:46:12 <Core_Xii> no it's not 15:46:23 <planetmaker> and whether it is graphically compatible with anything existing or not. That doesn't change it either 15:46:25 <Core_Xii> what vehicles there are is determined by industries 15:46:39 <planetmaker> yes, so? 15:47:10 <Core_Xii> so the vehicles, without the industries, don't do anything by themselves 15:47:22 <Core_Xii> and vice versa actually 15:47:23 <V453000> they are vehicles? :D 15:47:42 <V453000> thats all they do 15:47:44 <planetmaker> correctly speaking vehicles depend on cargo. Not industries ;-) And that still is nowhere an argument to see that monolithic 15:47:54 <V453000> why couldnt they do that separately in a separate newGRF 15:48:03 <Core_Xii> well, why should they? 15:48:14 <Core_Xii> why split up what can be one? 15:48:27 <planetmaker> maintainability 15:48:33 <planetmaker> modularity 15:48:45 <planetmaker> configurability 15:48:57 <V453000> ^^^ 15:49:04 <planetmaker> motivation to get one thing "done" 15:49:08 <Core_Xii> modularizing makes maintenance and configuration more difficult, not less 15:50:05 <Core_Xii> modularity makes no sense to begin with; there's nothing to add to this whole 15:50:14 <V453000> either way, I think some uber simplified graphical look could be interesting 15:50:15 <Core_Xii> it will contain everything it should, and nothing more 15:50:17 <planetmaker> ah well 15:50:41 *** cyph3r [~Miranda@ip-213-220-193-253.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 15:50:44 <planetmaker> I guess I have said everything I should. and more ;-) 15:51:03 <Core_Xii> V453000: agreed, this'll be an interesting experiment 15:51:15 <V453000> pretty much pm :d 15:51:34 *** sla_ro|master [~slamaster@89.137.75.224] has joined #openttd 15:52:24 <V453000> experiment or not, doing everything at once will be a lot of work 15:52:44 <V453000> making it in smaller parts is a lot better, but up to you 15:52:46 <Core_Xii> I disagree, I think it'll be less work 15:52:52 <planetmaker> as a rough guide: zbase took a few months. And many things were already existing and were just newly rendered 15:53:17 <Core_Xii> zBase is a different project, it aims to modularly replace 8bit graphics 15:53:32 <Core_Xii> my NewGRF won't "fit in" with any other, it's a whole of its own 15:53:32 <planetmaker> and that's a base set which does not touch any gameplay aspect 15:53:44 <planetmaker> and you're wrong there... base sets are not modular 15:53:50 <Core_Xii> (except for music and GUI as mentioned) 15:54:11 <planetmaker> base sets are "everything". And that is abotu 10000 sprites 15:54:36 <Core_Xii> it seems pretty modular to me... zBase has a new, HD church, right? and a NewGRF can replace it with another graphic if it wants 15:55:10 <Core_Xii> a NewGRF can add town houses on top of zBase, no? 15:55:22 <Core_Xii> same for industries, vehicles, etc.... 15:55:22 <planetmaker> it's a base set... of course every newgrf can do so 15:55:26 <Core_Xii> exactly 15:55:31 <planetmaker> as can newgrfs add to your newgrf 15:55:39 <planetmaker> same thing, just different colour 15:55:43 <Core_Xii> technically, yes, but there's no point in doing so 15:55:53 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@212.36.5.170] has quit [Quit: Tvel] 15:55:54 <Core_Xii> because everything is reduced and/or redesigned 15:55:56 <planetmaker> is there a point in adding anything to vanilla openttd? 15:56:19 <Core_Xii> well that depends.. as a toy, or a game? 15:57:17 <Pikka> Core_Xii, your base set will also include a new church. A NewGRF can remove the church, replace it, or leave it alone. 15:57:39 <Core_Xii> and mine removes it, yes 15:57:42 <V453000> from what I understand I dont think he wants to make a base set 15:57:55 <Core_Xii> my NewGRF removes absolutely everything that doesn't serve a purpose in it 15:58:14 <planetmaker> you can't remove rivers ;-) 15:58:19 <Pikka> :) 15:58:22 <planetmaker> the concept is hard-coded 15:58:22 <V453000> XD 15:58:26 <Pikka> you're not making a base set? 15:58:26 <Core_Xii> ...everything it cans :P 15:58:36 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6C1ED.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 15:58:37 <Pikka> I'm making a base set. it seems to be the right way to go. :) 15:58:39 <Core_Xii> well, define "base set"? 15:58:47 <Core_Xii> I'd say it's a "core set" 15:58:50 <V453000> opengfx, zbase 15:58:57 <V453000> visual only 15:58:59 <planetmaker> base set is well-defined 15:59:09 <Core_Xii> this is not a visual-only base set 15:59:14 <planetmaker> it's the essential set of graphics openttd needs 15:59:17 <Core_Xii> I'm changing gameplay a lot 15:59:27 <V453000> Pikka: you making a base set would probably make jaws drop 15:59:29 <planetmaker> a base set cannot modify game play 15:59:45 <Pikka> V453000, everyone will hate it, especially mb 15:59:49 <Core_Xii> so, define "base set" 15:59:52 <planetmaker> hehe, Pikka :-) 15:59:54 <V453000> :D 16:00:02 <Core_Xii> my set will modify gameplay, so I guess it's not a base set then? 16:00:11 <planetmaker> indeed, it cannot be 16:00:19 <V453000> im not sure where base set is defined 16:00:22 <Pikka> http://wiki.openttd.org/Base_graphics 16:00:24 <planetmaker> it's simply then yet another newgrf ;-) 16:00:28 <V453000> ah 16:00:43 <V453000> what they said ^^ 16:01:08 <planetmaker> that page is soooo ancient, Pikka :-) 16:01:15 <Core_Xii> well yeah, it was a NewGRF from the very start. what else would it be? I'm not patching the engine or anything 16:01:20 <Pikka> yes planetmaker 16:01:26 <Pikka> but it makes it clear what a base set is ;) 16:01:34 <planetmaker> yep 16:02:01 <planetmaker> not criticising giving that link. It just ... showed that not all wiki pages are well-maintained ;-) 16:02:06 <V453000> ignore what se said Core_Xii , you are just making a newGRF which changes everything 16:02:18 <Core_Xii> pretty much 16:02:46 <V453000> im quite curious what will come out of your efforts 16:02:48 <Core_Xii> I don't know yet what changing UI graphics and music requires though. can NewGRFs do that? 16:03:05 <planetmaker> music = music base set 16:03:10 <planetmaker> sound: yes 16:03:17 <V453000> how is music relevant to gameplay? XD 16:03:22 <Core_Xii> haha, it's not :D 16:03:23 <planetmaker> UI: limited 16:03:51 <planetmaker> limited as in you can give everything a new symbol. But you cannot re-arrange anything 16:04:19 <Core_Xii> can you have different colors, borders on buttons, etc.? 16:04:23 <planetmaker> no 16:04:26 <Core_Xii> aw 16:04:39 <Core_Xii> I guess I'm eventually making a new base set then too 16:04:45 <planetmaker> they can't do that either 16:04:57 <Core_Xii> bummer 16:05:32 <planetmaker> everything a base set does can be done by newgrf (with marginal exceptions) 16:05:36 <Pikka> changing the recolour maps used to change some of the window colours, at least :) 16:05:48 <planetmaker> it still does, Pikka 16:06:07 <planetmaker> I lied. Somewhat ;-) 16:06:15 <V453000> :D 16:06:27 <V453000> yeah, mauve to black does that :) 16:06:55 <planetmaker> but it allows for none of the effects Core_Xii really asked for 16:07:01 *** ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:07:05 <V453000> soo something like gray to wtfcolour would do the same? 16:07:19 <V453000> wwell yeah :) 16:07:24 <Core_Xii> well, GUI and music are pretty orthogonal, so it's not a crisis or anything 16:07:49 <Core_Xii> OpenTTD can play real audio besides just midi, though, right? 16:08:01 <Eddi|zuHause> no 16:08:04 <planetmaker> nope 16:08:09 <Core_Xii> oh lord 16:08:24 <Ristovski> is anybody else experiencing this bug? when I play a song (OpenMFX) it just cycles through them very quickly 16:08:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Core_Xii: and i think you missed several points i was making 16:08:42 <Ristovski> it doesnt even play any, it just infinity loops at displaying the tittle of every one 16:08:57 <Ristovski> title* 16:08:57 <planetmaker> Ristovski, that sounds like OpenTTD does not find an audio device 16:09:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Ristovski: usually means your midi drivers is configured the wrong way 16:09:06 <Ristovski> planetmaker: I can hear sounds tho 16:09:19 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds are different 16:09:31 <Ristovski> oh, Eddi|zuHause: then how can I fix it? 16:09:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that depends on your OS 16:09:57 <Ristovski> Linux 16:10:07 <Eddi|zuHause> then install timidity 16:10:09 <Ristovski> Debian to be specific, I also compile OpenTTD 16:10:55 <Ristovski> Eddi|zuHause: "the game music should now play." I can already hear them tho 16:11:01 <Ristovski> oh, read sounds 16:11:03 <Ristovski> sorry! 16:13:54 <planetmaker> Core_Xii, what would IMHO work well is an approach like we try with OpenGFX/OpenGFX+: a base set which provides the fundamental graphics. And then NewGRFs which modify the gameplay in the individual areas to the desired effect 16:14:37 <Core_Xii> why go through the trouble of modularizing the base graphics when they clash with all others? 16:14:39 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:14:56 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has joined #openttd 16:15:08 <Eddi|zuHause> they might look different, but it does not necessarily mean they "clash" 16:15:26 <Core_Xii> it really does. you guys don't even grasp how different my set looks 16:15:34 <planetmaker> reason again is 'maintainability'. Especially also for you 16:15:44 <Ristovski> Eddi|zuHause: that worked, thanks! 16:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> also what i tried to say: what is when in 5 years someone does a NewGRF in your graphics styles? 16:15:55 <planetmaker> ^^ 16:16:06 <Core_Xii> what about it 16:16:17 <Core_Xii> ignoring that there shouldn't be any reason to 16:16:22 <Eddi|zuHause> people can't use it, because they can't turn off the part in your grf 16:16:34 <planetmaker> *sigh* 16:16:43 <Eddi|zuHause> there might not be a reason NOW 16:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but maybe in 5 years there is a reason? 16:16:52 <Pikka> planetmaker: let him do what he wants to do, why do you care? :) 16:16:55 <Core_Xii> if a reason is found, then I've failed in my design 16:17:01 <planetmaker> "I know how it must work, and no-one can possibly be at any time find reasons to see it differently" :-) 16:17:17 <Core_Xii> but... I'm willing to listen to good arguments 16:17:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot predict the future 16:17:21 <planetmaker> Core_Xii, yes. And the approach of monolithic makes sure the failure cannot be recovered 16:17:38 <Core_Xii> how so? 16:17:59 <Core_Xii> changing a monolithic set should, as far as I can see, be easier than a modular one 16:18:05 <Ristovski> I like how the "Music volume" slider doesnt even work 16:18:06 <Ristovski> lol 16:18:08 <planetmaker> it's a matter whether a fix needs time of the order of o(N) or o(dN) 16:18:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Ristovski: yeah, it does that :) 16:18:31 <Ristovski> Eddi|zuHause: hmm, Ill try to look at the source later 16:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Ristovski: i was told it's not possible 16:18:45 <Ristovski> actually, its taunting me, I must do it now! 16:18:49 <Ristovski> Eddi|zuHause: how so? 16:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i never looked into it, really 16:19:40 <Ristovski> its sound->volume right? 16:19:56 <Eddi|zuHause> no 16:19:59 <Eddi|zuHause> sound != music 16:20:12 <Eddi|zuHause> completely separate things 16:20:28 <Ristovski> oh 16:20:38 <goodger> timidity is somewhat difficult to control 16:20:48 *** Bonez305 [~kvirc@c-50-150-145-145.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:21:06 <goodger> it's a strange beast, I think it was designed from the beginning for CLI use and the daemon mode is a bit of an afterthought 16:21:17 *** Bonez305 [~kvirc@c-50-150-145-145.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 16:22:01 <Eddi|zuHause> [Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2013] [19:55:51] <Eddi|zuHause> hmm... "dbg: [driver] extmidi: set volume not implemented" 16:22:03 <Eddi|zuHause> [Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2013] [19:57:15] <peter1138> it's not 16:22:04 <Eddi|zuHause> [Mittwoch, 23. Januar 2013] [19:57:22] <peter1138> and never will be 16:22:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that was basically the entire discussion :) 16:22:35 *** RavingManiac_ [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has joined #openttd 16:23:49 <SpComb> I have a USB sound card with no volume control 16:23:52 <goodger> I wonder if someone with a high-end digital orchestra program could make a wavetable render of the MIDIs, for use as FLACs 16:24:09 <SpComb> and >100dB SPL speakers with only +-6dB input trim 16:24:09 <goodger> should be no copyright problems 16:24:13 <SpComb> setting it up was fun 16:24:33 <SpComb> goodger: there are, somewhere on the forums 16:24:44 <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: what? this is full of copyright problems 16:26:10 <planetmaker> goodger, that's surely a derivative. And... that's not allowed unless explicitly granted in the license 16:26:36 <goodger> I meant openMSX... is openMSX not GPL-compatible? 16:26:50 <planetmaker> OpenMSX is licensed under GPL v2, yes 16:27:13 <Eddi|zuHause> MSX, yes. but your soundfont must be as well 16:27:31 <Ristovski> Eddi|zuHause: does it happen in Winderz too? 16:27:33 <Ristovski> i mean windows* 16:27:40 <planetmaker> there once was a patch to add sound font support to OpenTTD 16:27:47 *** Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-3-118.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 16:27:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Ristovski: i have no idea. probably works completely different 16:27:55 <Ristovski> Eddi|zuHause: hmm.. weird 16:28:21 <goodger> commercial "soundfonts" (not that soundfont technology is commonly used now) don't restrict the user's ability to copyright the music they render with it 16:28:51 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5ac158d4.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:29:14 <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: but you make a derivative work of a GPLv2 project, so the GPLv2 requires you to include the "sources" 16:29:21 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause> which means the soundfont must be GPLv2-able 16:29:34 <SpComb> really? 16:29:43 <goodger> right; the source is the MIDI file, the soundfont is just part of the compiler 16:29:47 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: does compiling a binary from GPL sources require you to provider the sources for the compiler? 16:30:31 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: depends on how far you can argue that something is "typically part of the compiler" 16:30:53 <goodger> or how far you can argue that a piece of music has source code 16:31:00 <SpComb> hmm, does the GPL require that compiled binaries are distributable without restrictions 16:31:08 <goodger> it does not 16:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: MIDI is perfectly well a programming language 16:31:52 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: okay, so the digital orchestra software is a compiler 16:31:55 <SpComb> what about a compiler with curious built-in behavior for generating a main() function for a program linking against gpl libraries.. 16:32:42 <goodger> that said, the MIDI files would only be imported into the DO program 16:32:54 <SpComb> but yeah, I'd certainly say that an audio file rendered from midi files is a derived work of the midi files 16:34:00 <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: ok, the program is a compiler, but as soon as it can handle more than one exchangable soundfont, that soundfont is not anymore "typical part of the compiler", but some add-on-product 16:34:35 <goodger> wait, where did you get the word "typical" from? 16:35:01 <goodger> this debate is somewhat immaterial since we could just be asking the people who wrote the MIDI files in question 16:35:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "However, as a special exception, the source code distributed need not include anything that is normally distributed (in either source or binary form) with the major components (compiler, kernel, and so on) of the operating system on which the executable runs, unless that component itself accompanies the executable." 16:35:41 <Core_Xii> this "compiler" takes two source files, the MIDI instructions that tell which notes to play, and a SoundFont that tells how each note should sound, and produces an output file of an audio waveform. that, is derivative of both input files 16:36:23 <Eddi|zuHause> (from GPLv2 license) 16:36:44 <Core_Xii> not that I care about copyright 16:36:56 <goodger> from this I gather two things 16:37:10 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 16:37:15 <Ristovski> the volume seems to be set, but it doesnt change it for some reason 16:37:54 <planetmaker> not that it comes to haunt you, the lack of care about copyright 16:39:06 <goodger> firstly, the GPL is almost comically unsuitable for music distribution; secondly, this clause is so ambiguous in this case that no clear resolution is likely ever to happen 16:40:03 <SpComb> yeah, not entirely convinced GPL is a sensible choice for midi files 16:40:33 <SpComb> on the other hand, how common is distribution of midi files in audio form.. 16:40:45 <goodger> not very common since MIDI became obsolete 16:41:53 <planetmaker> SpComb, maybe not the most sensible. But I wanted something which goes easily with OpenTTD. Thus GPL was chosen 16:43:16 <planetmaker> earlier versions were dual-licensed under gpl2 and ccsp1+ 16:43:23 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe CC-BY-SA dual-license would be a better choice? 16:43:42 <planetmaker> what about commercial usage there? 16:43:53 <planetmaker> gpl does not restrict that really 16:44:01 <Eddi|zuHause> that would be -NC 16:44:12 <goodger> or planetmaker could just allow the compositions to be rendered as FLACs 16:44:22 <planetmaker> goodger, no, I can't 16:44:31 <goodger> you're not the sole copyright holder? 16:44:45 <planetmaker> I'm not the author of any of the pieces. I specifically made sure I got license agreement from each composer / musician 16:44:54 <planetmaker> for both licenses 16:44:57 <goodger> I see 16:45:20 <goodger> how many of the compositions are licensed under CC? 16:45:40 <planetmaker> My contribution is making all those pieces into a music set openttd understands. Technically the bundling or how you migth call that 16:45:45 <planetmaker> I don't know 16:45:59 <planetmaker> but the documentation might know :-) 16:46:01 <Eddi|zuHause> simplified: CC-BY-SA adds the requirement "must mention name" and drops the requirement "must distribute source code" relative to GPLv2 16:46:04 <planetmaker> it's years ago I wrote it 16:46:10 <goodger> well, fair enough 16:46:35 <goodger> if many of them are already licensed under CC then we could have them rendered nicely 16:46:45 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it keeps the requirement "must be released under similar license" 16:47:43 <goodger> anyway, I have to go to the pharmacy 16:48:24 <Eddi|zuHause> goodger: discussing licenses with authors often turns to a point where they want either "-ND" or "-NC" applied 16:48:37 <goodger> NC is fine 16:48:38 <planetmaker> my main motivation back then was to get a set going. I was always hoping that there'll be some person who is much more musical and a much bigger music lover than myself who would give love to some music set 16:48:41 <Eddi|zuHause> which both are unsuitible for open source projects 16:48:42 <goodger> no ND exists for CC 16:49:02 <planetmaker> or even that set, continuing it to something beautiful 16:49:03 <goodger> or does it... 16:49:14 <Core_Xii> sure it does 16:49:28 <Core_Xii> at least there was a special music license 16:49:36 <planetmaker> CCSP1+ ;-) 16:49:37 <Core_Xii> that allowed sharing, but not derivative works 16:49:51 <goodger> o hell 16:50:11 <planetmaker> though... ccsp1+ allows derivatives. but not commercially, iirc 16:50:53 <Core_Xii> nope, ND is part of the standard deal 16:51:01 <goodger> so it is 16:51:08 <Core_Xii> for instance I released some music under BY-ND-NC 16:52:53 <planetmaker> easiest licenses are CC-BY and CC-SA 16:53:05 <planetmaker> it saved the TTRS basically 16:54:46 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:55:09 *** tycoondemon [tycoondemo@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 16:57:16 <Terkhen> ah, licensing 16:58:17 <Core_Xii> the wiki is a bit inconsistent about what features are/aren't implemented in NML. could someone clarify? 16:59:16 <Terkhen> with regard to which features is it inconsistent? 16:59:20 *** tycoondemon [tycoondemo@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 16:59:27 *** tycoondemon [tycoondemo@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 16:59:47 <Core_Xii> someone said only bridges aren't implemented, some page said stations aren't, some page said town houses aren't 17:00:18 *** TheMask96 [martijn@polaris.ne2000.nl] has joined #openttd 17:00:25 <Core_Xii> the thread first post says basically nothing is implemented yet 17:00:31 <Core_Xii> so some of this info must be outdated 17:01:04 <Terkhen> are we talking about the forum thread or the wiki? 17:01:09 <Core_Xii> both 17:02:10 <Terkhen> the wiki should be updated 17:02:22 <Terkhen> the bridges page does not exist, though 17:02:40 <Terkhen> and the forum thread should just link to the wiki :P 17:04:44 <Core_Xii> so.. stations and bridges are unimplemented? 17:05:13 <MNIM> yes. 17:05:24 <MNIM> openttd does not have stations or bridges. 17:05:37 <Core_Xii> ...? 17:06:16 <Core_Xii> talking about NML here 17:07:19 <Terkhen> Core_Xii: the station page explicitly says that it is not possible to code a station because the implementation is a work in progress 17:07:28 <Terkhen> and now the bridge page says the same too 17:09:06 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 17:13:50 <planetmaker> Ristovski, check your e-mail 17:14:08 <Ristovski> ok 17:14:19 <planetmaker> well. or don't ;-) you can now re-login and start translating 17:14:55 <Ristovski> oh, ok, tho my god my connection is slow 17:15:51 *** TrueBrain [~truebrain@ip82-139-82-247.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Quit: reboot] 17:16:14 <Ristovski> planetmaker: btw, thanks! 17:16:56 <planetmaker> np 17:18:18 <Sacro> @seen Bjarni 17:18:18 <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 23 weeks, 2 days, 16 hours, 59 minutes, and 11 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh 17:22:27 <Ristovski> planetmaker: hmm, seems like gotta wait some more 17:23:01 <planetmaker> why? 17:23:09 <Ristovski> planetmaker: still says im not a translator 17:23:25 <Ristovski> I did relog 17:23:28 <planetmaker> did you logout? 17:23:39 <Ristovski> yes 17:23:46 <Ristovski> planetmaker: I can see "Macedonian trunk" 17:23:59 <Ristovski> tho, when I press edit, I get "In order to view this section, you need to be a translator." 17:24:21 *** TrueBrain [~truebrain@ip82-139-82-247.lijbrandt.net] has joined #openttd 17:26:05 <Ristovski> planetmaker: maybe I need to use http://translator.openttd.org/en/signup/? 17:26:20 <Ristovski> seems like the db doesnt recognize me as a translator, tho I am assigned to macedonian 17:27:12 <planetmaker> try again. first press the logout link which is tiny at the bottom of the page 17:27:23 <Ristovski> I did, but okay, let me try again 17:27:39 <Ristovski> nope, still 17:28:01 <Ristovski> I am assigned to macedonian, tho it says im not a translator 17:28:21 <planetmaker> how do you know that you're assigned to macedonian, if you're not a translator? 17:28:36 <Ristovski> planetmaker: it says "macedonian/trunk" in the dropdown menu 17:28:44 <Ristovski> tho it says "In order to view this section, you need to be a translator. Please sign up here to become one." 17:30:11 <Terkhen> Ristovski: in the dropbox, does it say "read only"? 17:30:27 <Ristovski> Terkhen: nope 17:30:36 <planetmaker> uh, where, Terkhen ? 17:30:36 <Ristovski> only "Macedonian/trunk" 17:31:12 <Terkhen> planetmaker: in the dropbox you can check all languages, but for those you don't have permissions it adds "(Read only)" at the end 17:31:13 <Ristovski> planetmaker: heres a screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/CBqNz5a.png 17:31:58 <Ristovski> planetmaker: is the db case-sensitive? since my name starts with an capital 17:32:04 <Ristovski> a* 17:32:12 <Terkhen> Ristovski: did you log out and log in again? 17:32:23 <Ristovski> Terkhen: like 5 times, yes 17:32:26 <Terkhen> strange 17:32:35 <__ln__> Ristovski: you mean "here's" 17:32:38 <planetmaker> Ristovski, and you really logged out via the thing in the middle bottom? 17:32:45 <Ristovski> planetmaker: yup 17:32:47 <planetmaker> hm 17:33:00 <planetmaker> the user name is case sensitive, afaik, yes 17:33:13 <planetmaker> and yours is without captital "r" 17:33:23 <Ristovski> it is 17:33:34 <Ristovski> planetmaker: its "Ristovski" 17:33:37 <planetmaker> hm... maybe not case sensitive :-) 17:33:41 <Ristovski> lol 17:34:06 <Ristovski> logged out again, still doesnt work 17:35:13 <__ln__> Ristovski: you mean "it's" 17:35:36 <Ristovski> ... 17:35:51 <planetmaker> hm. give it some time... dunno. Maybe it needs a few minutes to sync 17:36:07 <Ristovski> planetmaker: Yeah, I was thinking that too 17:39:31 *** RavingManiac_ [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 17:39:52 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 17:42:52 *** Guilux [~Guilux@chenapan.net] has joined #openttd 18:07:28 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Not that there is anything wrong with that] 18:28:30 <Ristovski> planetmaker: lol, still nothing 18:32:01 <planetmaker> re-start your browser? 18:32:35 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590d5460.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:32:59 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 18:33:02 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 18:34:18 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 18:42:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Ctrl+F5 if you suspect caching 18:43:07 <planetmaker> I can only go by what I see and set in phpldapadmin... there it's set 18:45:00 <planetmaker> totally different, I recently discovered that there's already syntax highlighting definitions for Geany and Notepad++, I added now one for kate as well ;-) http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Getting_started#Syntax_highlighting 18:45:32 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25109 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2013-03-18 18:45:23 UTC) 18:45:33 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:45:34 <DorpsGek> german - 1 changes by planetmaker 18:45:35 <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv 18:45:36 <DorpsGek> polish - 1 changes by xaxa 18:45:38 <DorpsGek> swedish - 3 changes by Joel_A 18:47:25 *** goodger [~ben@host86-143-75-37.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: goodger] 18:48:08 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19252.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 18:53:44 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 18:54:01 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 18:54:09 <andythenorth> lolwut 18:54:14 <andythenorth> andythenorth in #openttd? 18:54:16 <andythenorth> shameful 18:54:21 <Supercheese> :O 18:55:26 * CornishPasty bans andythenorth 18:55:40 <planetmaker> pfft 18:55:46 <planetmaker> @voice andythenorth 18:55:52 <planetmaker> @whoami 18:55:52 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: I don't recognize you. 18:55:54 <planetmaker> ui 18:56:01 *** goodger [~ben@host86-143-75-37.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 18:56:26 *** goodger [~ben@host86-143-75-37.range86-143.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 18:56:51 <planetmaker> @op andythenorth 18:56:54 *** mode/#openttd [+o andythenorth] by DorpsGek 18:56:56 <planetmaker> try again, CornishPasty ;-) 18:57:03 <frosch123> @op CornishPasty 18:57:04 *** mode/#openttd [+o CornishPasty] by DorpsGek 18:57:04 <andythenorth> don't give me op :P 18:57:08 <frosch123> let's make it fair :p 18:57:11 <frosch123> @deop CornishPasty 18:57:11 *** mode/#openttd [-o CornishPasty] by DorpsGek 18:57:11 <andythenorth> imagine what would happen 18:57:19 <andythenorth> same reason I don't want mod on forums :P 18:57:33 <planetmaker> :D 18:58:26 <CornishPasty> I miss my @ :( 18:58:35 * CornishPasty changes nick to @CornishPasty 18:58:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I need your help in testing eints... I somehow fail to understand how to setup users 18:59:12 <andythenorth> ho 18:59:14 <andythenorth> me too :) 18:59:17 <andythenorth> no alberth? 18:59:36 <andythenorth> do you have an admin user? 18:59:54 <planetmaker> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/eints/ is what alberth gave me. But... 19:00:10 <planetmaker> ... no single user defined 19:02:03 <planetmaker> anyway, going by the pngs which alberth gave me there: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/eints/language_overview.png IMHO uses too much vertical space 19:02:18 <planetmaker> the same info could be put on much less, thus less scrolling for small updates 19:02:42 <planetmaker> or maybe reverse order: then most important issues are top 19:02:46 <andythenorth> planetmaker: ./editsilly admin 19:03:13 <andythenorth> should get you a login 19:03:28 <planetmaker> how easy :-) 19:04:01 <andythenorth> if you know :P 19:08:54 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 19:13:03 <V453000> oh my god look who is on the top of the list 19:13:05 <V453000> not him 19:14:44 <andythenorth> ? 19:15:51 <V453000> :P 19:19:36 *** Core_Xii [~Core_Xii@a88-115-204-171.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has left #openttd [] 19:30:25 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:32:06 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 19:40:24 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 19:43:56 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 19:44:09 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:47:20 *** KritiK [~Maxim@0001264a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 19:48:35 <andythenorth> I should add this to HEQS, it's about 200t http://www.heavyequipmentforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=100586&stc=1&d=1363547064 19:48:43 <andythenorth> biggest log truck right now is 140t :P 19:52:17 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 19:52:21 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 19:53:17 <MNIM> hah 19:53:49 <MNIM> that thing eats long distance haulers for breakfast 19:58:10 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 19:58:48 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:08:21 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 20:08:37 <Ristovski> planetmaker: restarted chrome, ctrl+f5'ed aswell, nothing 20:08:40 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:08:41 <Ristovski> I blame sql 20:11:20 <Ristovski> planetmaker: shall I try the http://translator.openttd.org/en/signup/ ? 20:14:07 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 20:14:11 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:14:27 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 20:15:25 <planetmaker> I have the feeling that the result will be an e-mail, Ristovski ;-) 20:15:34 <Ristovski> planetmaker: lol 20:15:46 <Ristovski> then idunno, the db hates me seems like 20:16:47 <Ristovski> planetmaker: hmm, btw, are you the head dev, I dont like when I speak to someone now knowing who he is, you seem like the head admin too 20:16:59 <planetmaker> neither 20:17:11 <__ln__> Ristovski: you mean "don't" 20:17:14 <Ristovski> ... 20:17:26 <Ristovski> planetmaker: well, didnt find your nick on dev list 20:17:36 <planetmaker> __ln__, he does mean that... but... it's a bit annoying ;-) 20:18:10 <Ristovski> planetmaker: "MacOSX / Support" 20:18:14 <planetmaker> look again, Ristovski ^ 20:18:16 <Ristovski> youre more than that 20:18:20 <planetmaker> nope 20:18:31 <planetmaker> I'm 4 bits ;-) 20:18:42 <Ristovski> wat 20:18:49 <planetmaker> :D just trolling you 20:18:56 <Zuu> andythenorth: They are evaluating log trucks with extra trailers in sweden: http://www.skogforsk.se/sv/Pressrum/ETT---Modulsystem-for-skogstransporter/Pressbilder-ETT-fordonet/ 20:19:08 <Ristovski> planetmaker: in the wiki, it says "planetmaker MacOSX / Support" 20:19:18 <planetmaker> so it says also on the dev page 20:19:32 <planetmaker> though osx... meh 20:19:36 <Ristovski> is that true, you seem more than just support 20:19:38 <planetmaker> should delete that 20:19:40 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:19:49 <V453000> :D 20:19:58 <V453000> :P 20:20:21 <V453000> pm is like your first aid, sometimes also the last aid 20:20:37 <planetmaker> Ristovski, it#s all a rough guide. Everyone does what he can and wants to do. Within the agreed "limits" 20:20:53 <Ristovski> ah 20:21:14 <planetmaker> though I really think that caring about translations goes under "support" :-) 20:21:32 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 20:21:43 <andythenorth> Zuu: loads of trees on those trucks :) 20:23:30 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 20:23:31 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:25:35 <planetmaker> holy cow. can it be that the images are huge, Zuu? :D 20:25:55 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 20:27:07 <andythenorth> pretty big yes 20:28:43 <Zuu> planetmaker: Those images are in the press section and possible they though press people want large images. 20:29:00 <planetmaker> well, they might even be right there :-) 20:29:21 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:29:44 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:30:05 <Zuu> There are some data here: http://www.skogforsk.se/sv/forskning/Logistik/ETT-Modulsystem-for-Skogstransporter/ETT-En-Trave-Till/ 20:30:08 *** Maedhros [~maedhros@31.185.163.241] has joined #openttd 20:30:11 <Zuu> But only in Swedish. 20:31:03 <Zuu> Basically it says that they allow 90 tonnes instead of 60 for the total weight of the vehicle. Load weight is 64 instead of 38-42. 20:31:56 * andythenorth wonders where the boundary between HEQS and BANDIT is 20:32:01 <andythenorth> these are on-highway trucks 20:32:04 <andythenorth> that's BANDIT 20:32:04 *** Maedhros_ [~maedhros@46.208.133.220] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:32:28 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:32:30 <andythenorth> @calc 1.5 * 64 20:32:30 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 96 20:33:21 <Zuu> There is also some test cases where they keep the standard 24 m length but testing with total weights above 60 tonnes. 20:33:56 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:36:39 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:37:20 *** zeknurn [~sup@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 20:38:22 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 20:42:46 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90 [Firefox 19.0.2/20130307023931]] 20:49:10 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 20:50:25 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 20:52:02 *** Bonez305 [~kvirc@c-50-150-145-145.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 4.0.4 Insomnia http://www.kvirc.net/] 20:59:10 *** oskari892 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 21:05:20 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:19:28 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 21:22:40 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 21:22:40 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:23:07 <frosch123> night 21:23:10 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590d5460.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:24:57 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:27:16 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:29:14 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@84.40.82.221] has joined #openttd 21:32:34 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 21:34:05 <andythenorth> should the buy menu report auto-refittability? 21:35:34 <planetmaker> yes 21:37:49 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:39:25 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:39:34 <andythenorth> as a newgrf thing, or ottd should do it? 21:40:00 *** sla_ro|master [~slamaster@89.137.75.224] has quit [Quit: connection reset by myself] 21:40:15 <planetmaker> hm :-) good question 21:40:20 <planetmaker> I think NewGRF must do it 21:40:22 <andythenorth> '(autorefittable)' | '(refittable)' in capacity string? 21:40:33 <planetmaker> as openttd cannot decide whether autorefit between to cargos works 21:40:36 <andythenorth> it's already there, just switch the string according to the property 21:40:39 <planetmaker> it's in newgrf hands 21:40:49 <andythenorth> but yes, the ability of newgrf to break autorefit is very bad 21:41:02 <andythenorth> that should be removed imho 21:41:15 <andythenorth> cue wailing 21:41:45 <andythenorth> 'nothing must be removed ever, even bad things' :P 21:42:28 <planetmaker> :-) 21:42:47 <Eddi|zuHause> something broke civ4 :/ 21:42:59 <andythenorth> remove it :P 21:43:00 <Eddi|zuHause> (or civ4col as well) 21:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> getting lots of "GL_INVALID_FRAMEBUFFER_OPERATION (0x506)" and a black screen 21:44:10 <andythenorth> cb 15E should stop checking bit 14, and assume it's always set http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Refit_cost_factor_.2815E.29 21:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i just tried my backup from before the system update, and there it worked :/ 21:44:22 <andythenorth> anyone who complains we broke their newgrf is wrong :P 21:44:36 <andythenorth> they are breaking orders currently for players 21:45:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you're not making any sense 21:45:15 <andythenorth> for why? 21:45:36 <andythenorth> ENoContext? ENoSense? 21:46:00 <Eddi|zuHause> cb 15E does not check anything that the newgrf author did not explicitly specify 21:46:15 <andythenorth> yes 21:46:19 <andythenorth> that is the problem 21:46:37 <andythenorth> author can disallow autorefit according to arbitrary conditions 21:46:50 <Eddi|zuHause> so? 21:46:52 <andythenorth> which provably breaks vehicle orders, with no feedback 21:47:07 <andythenorth> it's a dumb feature in retrospect 21:47:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you're arguing some non-issue, but i can't be sure 21:47:29 <andythenorth> I suppose I could also set vehicle speed to 0 according to atrbitrary conditions 21:47:33 <andythenorth> so same difference 21:47:36 <andythenorth> maybe non-issue 21:48:45 <andythenorth> what is the utility of being able to prevent auto-refit in a cb? 21:49:35 <Eddi|zuHause> that graphics don't change mid-transportation, of course... :p 21:50:12 <andythenorth> and that is more important than having valid orders, of course... :) 21:50:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it's up to the grf coder to make this a "all or none" thing 21:51:13 <Eddi|zuHause> you might want to have custom refit cost without allowing autorefit at all 21:51:25 <Eddi|zuHause> like, adding/removing articulated parts 21:51:51 <andythenorth> I honestly think this specific case is too fragile for grf coders 21:51:58 <andythenorth> I don't think they do it right 21:52:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't seen anybody do it at all... 21:52:19 <andythenorth> pikka does it 21:52:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and? 21:52:29 <andythenorth> I think ogfx+ does it 21:52:31 <andythenorth> broken orders 21:52:51 <andythenorth> FISH 2 did it until I discovered the issue 21:53:09 <andythenorth> but anyway 21:53:29 * andythenorth leaves it alone 21:55:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll play around with backups some more :/ 21:55:14 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 21:55:20 *** Ristovski [~rafael@78.157.7.34] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:56:53 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:59:01 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 21:59:29 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 22:05:40 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 22:06:22 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 22:21:51 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 22:22:11 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:23:01 *** Progman [~progman@p57A19252.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:30:50 *** Flygon_ [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:31:30 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 22:36:16 <Terkhen> good night 22:40:34 *** oskari892 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 22:48:18 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Read error: Connection timed out] 22:52:51 *** Tvel [~Thunderbi@84.40.82.221] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:54:00 *** Flygon [~Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has joined #openttd 23:12:12 *** i4c [~i4c@2.81.152.148] has joined #openttd 23:26:30 *** i4c [~i4c@2.81.152.148] has quit [Quit: Saindo] 23:35:02 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6C1ED.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:46:08 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:54:26 *** ZxBiohazardZx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: IceChat - Keeping PC's cool since 2000] 23:55:17 *** KritiK [~Maxim@0001264a.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:56:31 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 23:58:17 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5CAD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd