Log for #openttd on 4th April 2013:
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06:30:49  <__ln__> g o  o   d     m      o      r       n         i         n           g
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08:08:11  <Eddi|zuHause> which crazyperson renamed the page to "Compiling on (GNU/)Linux"? the redirection on the wiki is totally confused...
08:11:48  <TinoDidriksen> History will reveal that, surely.
08:15:35  <__ln__>
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08:17:58  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, two consecutive redirects don't seem to work
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08:18:22  <Eddi|zuHause> the FAQ links to this page:
08:20:13  <Eddi|zuHause> which redirects you to the "GNU/Linux" page, and stops there
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08:23:55  <planetmaker> NG is oberhumer
08:24:00  <Eddi|zuHause> "Disney closes LucasArts"
08:24:15  <planetmaker> good morning
08:24:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i should have known that :)
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08:24:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i just fixed the redirect for now, to remove the intermediate step
08:25:03  <planetmaker> thx
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08:25:11  <Eddi|zuHause> but i find the page title totally awkward
08:25:58  <planetmaker> I'd switch redirect and page, tbh
08:26:20  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but i won't do that now
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12:40:05  <Celestar> morning
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12:43:30  <Sacro> Morning Celestar
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13:04:19  <Ristovski> hmm "view  bounding box structure" shortcut doesnt work
13:04:46  <Ristovski> and yes, I do have "bounding_boxes = CTRL+B"
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13:06:55  <V453000> what do you need that for :d
13:08:10  <Ristovski> V453000: I never actually saw what it does
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13:09:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Ristovski: it only works with developer tools active
13:09:12  <Ristovski> Eddi|zuHause: huh?
13:09:14  <Ristovski> whcih ones
13:09:28  <Eddi|zuHause> the newgrf ones, i suspect
13:09:53  <Ristovski> Eddi|zuHause: hmm, I think I have them
13:10:01  <V453000> I honestly dont even understand what to use that for regarding newgrf development
13:11:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i used that to find out how vehicle movement works
13:12:26  <V453000> but it shows diagonal vehicles as little boxes
13:12:26  <V453000> :s
13:12:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. bounding boxes cannot be rotated
13:13:01  <Ristovski> how do I even enable that?
13:13:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Ristovski: if you don't know that, you don't need it
13:13:31  <Ristovski> lol
13:14:42  <V453000> its true
13:18:06  <Sacro> I hate finding bugs in our software
13:18:08  <Sacro> :\
13:18:25  <Sacro> sleep based throttling causes the tcp buffer to fill
13:21:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you'd rather search for them forever, instead of actually finding them?
13:23:36  <V453000> :)
13:23:55  <V453000> indeed
13:27:10  <Belugas> hello
13:28:56  <V453000> hai
13:29:19  <V453000> dark lord of unrealism? :)
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13:34:17  <oskari89> @seen DanMacK
13:34:17  <DorpsGek> oskari89: DanMacK was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 6 days, 23 hours, 15 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
13:36:18  <Sacro> @seen Bjarni
13:36:18  <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 25 weeks, 5 days, 13 hours, 17 minutes, and 12 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
13:36:28  <Sacro> @seen Eddi|zuHause
13:36:28  <DorpsGek> Sacro: Eddi|zuHause was last seen in #openttd 14 minutes and 57 seconds ago: <Eddi|zuHause> you'd rather search for them forever, instead of actually finding them?
13:36:31  <Sacro> ooh
13:36:41  <V453000> lol
13:36:50  <oskari89> Seems DanMacK has a little break from here :P
13:39:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember DanMacK being here regularly
13:53:20  <V453000> well I guess this thread is now officially dead :D
13:53:22  <V453000>
14:28:20  <Belugas> V453000:  that is just a legend...
14:28:23  <Belugas> i think
14:28:26  <Belugas> am i?
14:40:07  <Sacro> it disturbs me very sprites
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15:44:30  <Eddi|zuHause> something is very wrong with the forums. the overview tells me there's a reply here from 16:06, but when i click on "go to new posts", nothing is there, only my post from 16:01. and it won't mark the topic as read
15:44:35  <Eddi|zuHause>
15:45:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like a stale reference to a post that was deleted or something
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17:40:16  <frosch123> moin
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17:45:29  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25142 /trunk/src/lang (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-04-04 17:45:19 UTC)
17:45:30  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:31  <DorpsGek> esperanto - 3 changes by potwor
17:45:32  <DorpsGek> faroese - 300 changes by FastNinja
17:45:33  <DorpsGek> galician - 125 changes by Michi
17:45:34  <DorpsGek> indonesian - 22 changes by Yoursnotmine
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18:06:04  <Terkhen> hello
18:08:47  <frosch123> they are all gone
18:08:56  <frosch123> it's just me, you and dorpsgek :)
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18:39:37  <Alberth> hello frosch123 and DorpsGek (and Terkhen)
18:39:54  <frosch123> hi albert :)
18:43:13  <V453000> MOO
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18:43:56  <Wolf01> hello :D
18:44:50  <Alberth> hi hi
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19:01:53  <andythenorth> lo
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19:10:38  <V453000> my
19:10:40  <V453000> mu
19:10:42  <V453000> moo
19:11:25  <frosch123> let's just declare that unicorns do moo
19:11:37  <frosch123> i like moos
19:12:24  <V453000> :D
19:12:38  <Eddi|zuHause> moo3 was totally overhyped, though
19:13:05  <frosch123> when was moo3?
19:14:14  <Eddi|zuHause> before i played OpenTTD, i think
19:14:27  <V453000> wtf is moo3 :d
19:14:44  <frosch123> a space colonisation game
19:14:59  <frosch123> which involves designing your own species
19:15:03  * andythenorth is resisting ksp
19:15:25  <Eddi|zuHause> the alleged successor to moo2
19:15:28  <frosch123> though it's only know that i realise that you cannot give them horns
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19:15:56  <andythenorth> will I or won't I start playing KSP?
19:16:18  <frosch123> isn't arolard already playing that?
19:16:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i'll be playing that
19:19:33  * andythenorth downloads the demo
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19:48:19  <andythenorth> meh
19:48:21  <andythenorth> can't figure out KSP
19:57:38  <Rubidium> evening
19:59:25  <andythenorth> hi
20:01:35  <Alberth> evenink
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20:06:41  <andythenorth> bye
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20:08:57  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25143 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2013-04-04 20:08:52 UTC)
20:08:58  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5496]: several typos/inconsistencies in English strings (Evropi, kazzie)
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20:15:57  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25144 trunk/bin/ai/regression/regression.txt (2013-04-04 20:15:51 UTC)
20:15:58  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r25143): one of the changes strings was used in the regression test, which subsequently failed
20:36:17  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:37:48  <Eddi|zuHause> oh we long had no "forgot to update regression" commits :p
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21:01:05  <Terkhen> good night
21:02:06  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25145 /extra/musa (5 files) (2013-04-04 21:02:00 UTC)
21:02:07  <DorpsGek> [musa] -Add: Support for uploading of AI, AI Library, GS, GS Library, Scenario and Heightmaps using musa
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21:05:26  <Steve^> Hi, I would like some suggestions for `complete` train sets that would be good for a single player game
21:07:30  <Zuu> NUTS
21:07:46  <Zuu> It even have WETRails - ships on rails :-)
21:08:13  <Steve^> oh dear
21:08:33  <frosch123> yeah, if "complete" is your only criterion
21:08:40  <frosch123> nuts might be the best, it has everything :)
21:08:57  <Steve^> Well, I want something with a set of trains, that are released overtime
21:09:01  <Steve^> like the original set.. but new
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21:09:09  <Zuu> NUTS do that
21:09:19  <Steve^> Yea.. but.. look at it.... :P
21:09:23  <Eddi|zuHause> probably no other train set is "complete" in the sense of "it contains everything the author intended to include"
21:09:25  <frosch123> about every trainset does that
21:09:52  <Zuu> I've played with NUTS and I kind of like it.
21:10:03  <frosch123> Steve^: you told us no criterion
21:10:09  <Zuu> Otherwise I used to play a lot with UKRS.
21:10:14  <frosch123> there are about 50 trainsets, which could be considered more or less complete
21:11:43  <Steve^> I have only tried one thus far, 2cc, but it gives you.. everything.. it's not very good for a typical playthrough
21:11:55  <Steve^> I wanted some personal perspective on what works well
21:11:59  <frosch123> 2cc has only pax trains :p
21:12:05  <V453000> NUTS and UKRS are best in my opinion as well
21:12:14  <FLHerne> Steve^: UKRS2 (and UKRS2+) is awesome
21:12:22  <Steve^> Otherwise I can browser forum topics and pick at random
21:12:35  <Steve^> but many forum topics don't have first posts that sell the products
21:12:40  <Steve^> no decent pictures
21:12:41  <FLHerne> I quite like NARS, but it hasn't been worked on for a while and has a few quirks
21:12:55  <FLHerne> Steve^: Have you seen the screenshot subforum?
21:12:58  <V453000> nobody needs to sell any product here Steve^  :)
21:13:12  <frosch123> V453000: esp. not you :p
21:13:19  <FLHerne> That tends to have good examples of most grfs in use ;-)
21:13:33  <V453000> why not me? :d
21:13:47  <Steve^> The Japan Railways set looks well constructed
21:14:48  <V453000> japan is fun but is really passenger only ... cargo trains are nice but slow which tends to be boring
21:15:11  <V453000> if you wanted to see what NUTS contains, see
21:15:12  <Steve^> hmm, I was thinking going cargo - this is exactly the info I'm looking for! :)
21:15:47  <FLHerne> V453000: Cargo is *meant* to be slow! :P
21:16:01  <Steve^> suggests it is very balanced
21:16:01  <V453000> that is realistic bullshit
21:16:02  <FLHerne> If you want fast cargo, send it by helicopter :P
21:16:12  <V453000> it is very balanced. :)
21:16:25  <Steve^> balanced is unrealistic, I suppose :)
21:16:36  <FLHerne> V453000: Realism =/= bullshit
21:16:41  <V453000> that is what the U stands for
21:16:45  <V453000> NUTS Unrealistic Train Set
21:16:52  <Steve^> yea I got that
21:16:56  <V453000> FLHerne: realism == bullshit ^ 2
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21:17:12  <FLHerne> V453000: You're a little bit biased there :P
21:17:17  <V453000> nope
21:17:33  <V453000> if you say that cargo trains are meant to be slow because reason 0, it is b.s.
21:17:43  <Steve^> but but toyland
21:17:47  <Steve^> I just can't do it!
21:17:47  <V453000> because variety of speeds and faster trains are more entertaining in the game
21:18:00  <V453000> you dont have to do toyland? :d it is just an option
21:18:06  <frosch123> Steve^: toyland is very nice with a non-default landscape set
21:18:18  <FLHerne> V453000: Cargo should be slow because it's fun to watch trains overtake other trains :-)
21:18:27  <frosch123> toyland is way underrated
21:18:29  <V453000> frosch123: toyland without ttd baseset isnt toyland but temperate :s
21:18:44  <V453000> FLHerne: mixing train speeds is quite stupid
21:18:44  <Steve^> times have changed
21:18:59  <frosch123> V453000: toyland with ttd baseset is only playable if you are colorblind
21:19:05  <V453000> but if you hate toyland landscape and colours and stuff, use toyland to mars conversion :)
21:19:19  <V453000> frosch123: I play that rather often and I am not colourblind (yet) :))
21:19:31  <frosch123> the terrain is way too checked to look at it without tearing eyes
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21:19:55  * FLHerne loves having Fast and Slow lines, and then agonising over how to arrange fast freight and stopping pax
21:20:09  <frosch123> V453000: i love the toy factory way too much
21:20:21  <frosch123> note that the ogfx toyshop is way better than the ttd one
21:20:29  <FLHerne> V453000: Stupid from ultimate-throughput-at-all-costs perspective, but not all ;-)
21:20:30  <frosch123> yellow ducks are way cuter than grey robots
21:20:39  <V453000> the robots are red
21:20:55  <frosch123> are they? maybe they are company coloured then
21:21:02  <V453000> who was talking about ultimate throughput, if your stuff jams it just jams
21:21:08  <V453000> no, red. :)
21:21:15  <V453000> you are colourblind
21:21:26  * frosch123 starts ottd to check
21:22:10  <FLHerne> V453000: Speed differentials don't cause jamming. If you timetable it properly, they don't even cause excessive stop/starting
21:22:12  <V453000> I even drew those as a cargo... :)
21:22:27  <FLHerne> Just poor throughput, which is rarely an issue
21:22:44  <V453000> if you timetable it properly it means you are timetabling a speed limit, meaning it is not mixing speeds. timetabling by a time fails sooner or later
21:23:58  * Zuu sees a red robot
21:24:23  <Zuu> or human looking plastic toy
21:24:55  <V453000> something red with yellow decoration and pink eye. :)
21:25:24  <Steve^> they look so ridiculous
21:25:28  <Steve^> you all went mad
21:25:56  <V453000> nuttah?
21:26:23  <FLHerne> V453000: Have you actually tried? :P
21:27:04  * FLHerne gets very few serious network issues caused by trains catching each other up
21:27:25  <V453000> about 4 years ago, perhaps once, yes. Logically there are so many randomizers in openttd that timetabling is just dumb
21:27:41  <V453000> sooner or later the line will be full anyway
21:27:46  <V453000> if not, you are doing something wrong
21:28:23  <frosch123> hmm, they look nothing like i remembered them
21:28:30  <FLHerne> Make sure there's a big gap timetabled between a slow train and the following fast one, such that the fast one doesn't overtake the slow before the next loop :P
21:28:54  <FLHerne> Breakdowns off, of course, else the timetable is meaningless :-/
21:29:05  <V453000> you cant afford a big gap if you want to have more than just a few trains
21:29:12  <FLHerne> Also, define "Wrong"
21:29:14  <V453000> which is what just a handful of industries requires
21:29:19  <V453000> so idk if you are playing without traffic or how
21:29:47  <V453000> or even a single grown industry
21:30:06  <V453000> not even talking about whole towns
21:31:31  <FLHerne> Really? I don't shift OTTDcoop levels of cargo (or even close), but certainly not just a few dozen crates wobbling about...
21:31:44  <V453000> this isnt about openttdcoop at all
21:31:56  <V453000> industries behave everywhere the same
21:32:07  <V453000> everybody gets high producing industries
21:32:50  <frosch123> nope
21:32:57  <frosch123> not when you play on 256x128 maps
21:32:57  <V453000> if you have, say, 5 mines and each of them produces average of 500 (still relatively low but enough to illustrate), you definitely cannot get away with gaps on a single line
21:33:03  <FLHerne> V453000: Simile. They have a reputation for insane transport quantities :D
21:33:05  <frosch123> the game is over before they reach higher levels
21:33:06  <V453000> presumably you do not play with 5 but 50 mines
21:33:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never had high-producing industries unless they randomly started out that way
21:33:27  <V453000> you can say you instead of they :)
21:33:42  <V453000> how can the game be over ... :z
21:33:46  <FLHerne> V453000: Nah, my mines produce about 200 each, and I serve a couple of dozen :P
21:33:56  <frosch123> V453000: when you have everything connected
21:33:58  <Eddi|zuHause> "you can say you to me" (common joke in german)
21:34:00  <FLHerne> (FIRS btw)
21:34:09  <frosch123> which is possible on 256x128
21:34:24  <V453000> firs grows a lot faster than original actually if you supply correctly
21:34:39  <V453000> when you have everything connected it isnt game over at all :(
21:34:51  <V453000> jams should appear pretty soon at that point
21:34:54  <FLHerne> Mostly I end up serving a couple of secondaries of each type, and FIRS being FIRS normally end up with an inter-secondary network too
21:35:21  <FLHerne> V453000: I supply as many supplies as needed to get the highest production rate my line will support ;-)
21:35:51  <V453000> and after the one line isnt enough?
21:35:52  <FLHerne> If I feel like building a new line, I can always do that and then supply a few more supplies...
21:36:04  <frosch123> V453000: i think you underestimate how little there is on small maps
21:36:16  <V453000> frosch123: dont want me to show you some small maps
21:36:21  <V453000> :P
21:36:22  <FLHerne> V453000: If the one line isn't enough and I don't feel like building another right then, I supply less supplies
21:36:44  <V453000> well yeah but what do you do in the game then if you just reduce amount of supplies
21:36:50  <FLHerne> There isn't an obligation to ALWAYS SHUFFLE MOAR CARGO! :P
21:36:53  <V453000> if you dont want to build you might as well go outside
21:36:57  <Eddi|zuHause> on the last small map i played, i got exactly one of each FIRS industry
21:37:13  <FLHerne> V453000: I like to build realistic, aesthetically pleasing networks
21:37:26  <FLHerne> Not necessarily high-throughput ones
21:37:32  <Eddi|zuHause> but i always end up spending 90% of the time transporting passengers :/
21:37:46  <V453000> what does realistic mean, how does it define the network
21:37:54  <V453000> building it poorly?
21:38:23  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: not abusing infrastructure for logic, for example.
21:38:31  <FLHerne> If I say "that's a nice mountain pass, more track through there would look unrealistic", I'm not obliged to accept extra traffic and so need to build more...
21:39:09  <frosch123> V453000: the hall of fame only lists 256x256 games
21:39:41  <V453000> that isnt a requirement to do Eddi
21:39:51  <FLHerne> I *like* looking at squiggly lines up the side of mountains. I don't care that demolishing the whole thing to build a 20-line inter-hub ML with sideline prio-mergers would be more efficient, because the amount of cargo I move is irrelevant
21:40:06  <FLHerne> s/thing/mountain range/
21:40:22  <V453000> well, we define limits for where to build and where not to build as well, just go around the mountain then?
21:40:47  <FLHerne> V453000: But then I wouldn't get to look at the squiggly line going up and over it :D
21:41:05  <V453000> you would, you can keep that line :)
21:41:10  <V453000> I mean go around with the rest
21:41:24  <V453000> (the extra tracks which do not fit there :P)
21:41:50  <FLHerne> V453000: But why bother building them at all?
21:42:22  <V453000> cause the game is about building stuff? :D
21:42:52  <FLHerne> V453000: But with the time I spent building that, I could build more squiggly, unproductive branchlines :D
21:43:09  <V453000> XD alright
21:44:08  <FLHerne>
21:44:53  <FLHerne> And yes, those are 45mph Tube trains sharing a short bit of track with 125mph HSTs :P
21:44:54  <V453000> the second one is cute, but when I see the first screenshot I really think "how retarded can you be by screenshotting literally 1 track with 1 train"
21:45:09  <FLHerne> V453000: Fair enough. But I liked that train.
21:45:19  <Steve^> I remember when TT didn't have a D, or signals
21:45:21  <V453000> what do you like on that? :D
21:45:25  <frosch123> psg#229 is 64x256, but it is a rv game
21:45:39  <V453000> 256x256 is smallest train game you will find frosch
21:46:08  <FLHerne> Dunno really, watching two saddle tanks struggle up a hill at 5mph is just funny :-)
21:46:47  <V453000> I understand that it is funny for once or twice, but watching it for 5 years would make me mildly bored
21:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> TT had signals, but only the most simple ones
21:47:32  <V453000> ^
21:47:32  <FLHerne> V453000: I'd go off and build something a bit more useful, and then they'd be a nice contrast :-)
21:47:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i actually built very efficient one-way tracks with those signals
21:48:10  <Eddi|zuHause> but the system was pretty fragile
21:48:26  <V453000> what do you mean by that? :d
21:48:29  <V453000> haha Eddi :)
21:48:40  <V453000> been there did that :>
21:48:47  <FLHerne> V453000: Was that at me, or Eddi?
21:49:45  <V453000> first at you, what do you mean by contrast
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21:51:57  <frosch123> night
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21:52:31  <FLHerne> V453000: I can look at (say) Garratts trundling on 9-tile coal trains, and those little things pootling about, and think "Ah, those trains look so small and inefficient next to that other one" :-)
21:52:50  <V453000> :d
21:53:37  <FLHerne> And then build some A4s to zip around the place at relatively stupid speeds, and compare 'heavy and slow' with 'lightweight and fast, but low capacity'
21:53:54  <V453000> well, whatever ... but I will give you one thing. Even though I do not understand how is it possible that you enjoy watching that for years, you are the first person who was able to describe it sensibly to me
21:54:11  <FLHerne> And then have a lot of fun figuring out how to avoid the expresses stopping behind coal trains constantly
21:54:57  <Eddi|zuHause> because of the ridiculous amounts of passengers generated by the game, that never works out for me
21:55:01  <FLHerne> ...and then semi-fast pax trains, which have to be kept out of the way of the expresses but still overtake the coal...
21:55:18  <V453000> indeed Eddi ... but yeah :)
21:55:23  <FLHerne> ...and stopping pax, which have to be timed to meet branch trains at junctions...
21:55:39  <FLHerne> ...and fast containerised freight, and fish trains etc
21:56:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and timetables miss some important macromanagement functions
21:56:26  <FLHerne> Just keeping them all runing in an interlinked way while preventing the whole mess from collapsing is one of the most enjoyable things
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21:56:44  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: True. Better macro-timetabling would be awesome
21:57:37  <Eddi|zuHause> the most obvious ones are "fill this timetable with sanely guessed default values" and "move this vehicle forward or backward X ticks/days/minutes"
22:00:08  <FLHerne> I really liked that patch that added "Send one train of this group out from x station every x days". Saved a bit of hassle with start dates
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22:04:45  <V453000> any discoveries Steve^ ? :)
22:06:33  <Steve^> NUTS in temperate
22:06:46  <V453000> nuts works everywhere :)
22:07:00  <Steve^> but then since I don't feel much for the trains, I might use the same variety forever
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22:08:49  <V453000> well, you cant do everything at first immediately :P
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