Log for #openttd on 13th April 2013:
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00:13:25  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:35:35  <frosch123> night
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00:40:17  <Eddi|zuHause> day.
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06:37:58  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:26:53  <planetmaker>  moin
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08:44:23  <andythenorth> moin
08:44:37  <fonsinchen> FS#5508
08:45:00  <fonsinchen> Someone should decide what to do about that ...
08:50:17  <fonsinchen> And besides, I'll be mostly unavailable between April 22nd and May 30th. So, if we want to pursue the cargodist merge any further we should do that either soon or in June.
08:51:34  <Alberth> imho the problem is who should do that
08:52:49  <fonsinchen> I can hardly help with that question. The only thing I can offer is more documentation or doing it myself. For the latter I'd need svn access.
08:52:54  <alandarev> suggest me some vehicles set which is balanced with respect to NUTS?
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08:56:04  <Alberth> nuts is  a vehicle set
08:57:04  <Alberth> why do you need another one?
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09:07:49  <andythenorth> V453000: is nuts balanced against anything?
09:07:58  <andythenorth> afaict no set is balanced against any other
09:08:05  <andythenorth> I tried, but it's pointless
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09:21:11  <Administrator> hi
09:21:22  *** Administrator is now known as Valli
09:21:26  <Valli> hi
09:25:27  <Valli> is it possible to load only 50% or 75% in your vehicle. i use the "conditional jump" to go to recheck the loading but its very ineffective.
09:26:02  <Valli> sorry there should be a question mark behind vehicle
09:28:03  <alandarev> what does the Logic Engine (NUTS) mean?
09:28:30  <Alberth> Valli: by time tabling perhaps, but otherwise, no, just use a shorter train
09:29:20  <Alberth> alandarev: it's an engine for controlling train flow (yeah, control logic can be coded with tracks and trains too)
09:29:58  <alandarev> sounds like i don't get it at all
09:30:03  <alandarev> could you explain a bit?
09:30:21  <Valli> is there a mod for ottd which does the loading checking?
09:35:09  <Alberth> alandarev:
09:35:41  <Alberth> Valli: no idea, if it exists, it's in the openttd development section of tt-forums
09:36:03  <Valli> thank you ^^
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09:36:49  <Alberth> Valli: oh, or perhaps the openttd bug tracker as submitted patch
09:37:40  <Alberth> Valli: but it would be a source code patch, which means you have to compile the program after applying the path
09:37:43  <Alberth> *patch
09:38:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Valli: there used to be, but it would probably be very outdated by now
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10:05:35  <Wolf01> hello
10:07:22  <alandarev> Alberth: tht is way beyound my limits, I'd stay away from it :)
10:07:36  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
10:08:11  <Alberth> alandarev: it's fun to read that you can even do these things :)
10:08:47  <Alberth> and some ideas are quite useful, eg the priority solution
10:09:55  <planetmaker> I wonder whether really the default vehicle behaviour need be set into stone due to NewGRFs... if enough precautions are taken that all NewGRFs will continue to work as before
10:10:21  <Alberth> alandarev: I am sure you could do such things if you wanted to, it just takes time to learn them, but that's with most good things :)
10:11:02  <Alberth> planetmaker: but why change the defaults, if you can also change them easily without risk by NewGRF?
10:11:23  <planetmaker> defaults are what people use to get a first impression of the game
10:11:34  <alandarev> Alberth: I agree, for now I stick to more classical game
10:11:51  <planetmaker> thus awesome defaults make the whole game more awesome
10:12:36  <Eddi|zuHause> there is a thin line, we have already strayed from the "allow people to use TTD behaviour" route in the past, there is no "set in stone" way. it just must be very carefully weighed
10:12:37  <Alberth> true, is another cost model for wagons earth moving?
10:12:50  <planetmaker> certainly not
10:13:02  <Alberth> or one less passenger in an engine? :)
10:13:30  <planetmaker> I'm not saying that I want the suggestion as in the forum seen implemented
10:13:37  <planetmaker> just thinking more generally.
10:13:49  <planetmaker> And generally more elaborate defaults *would* be nice
10:14:00  <planetmaker> like refittable wagons imho
10:14:08  <planetmaker> or non-expiring helicopters
10:14:13  <Eddi|zuHause> well, 2 people on an engine was standard until like the 80s, when automated control systems became more common
10:14:27  <planetmaker> but it would need
10:14:46  <planetmaker> a) a global switch for newgrfs like 'use new default vehicles'
10:15:00  <planetmaker> b) reverting to current vehicles, if that switch is not set
10:15:12  <planetmaker> c) deciding what to do if two newgrfs want opposite things
10:15:25  <alandarev> what is the point of so many rail types in NUTS? If universal is for 'all' types
10:16:06  <Alberth> alandarev: the whole point of almost everything is that you can tailor the game to the way YOU like it
10:16:07  <planetmaker> iirc speed. universal iirc is dead slow
10:16:31  <Alberth> alandarev: a common mistake is to think that everybody plays the game like you do
10:16:41  <planetmaker> :-)
10:17:03  <planetmaker> if there are 10 people, there are 15 ways to play the game ;-)
10:17:47  <alandarev> could someone explain me pros/cons of each rail type in nuts?
10:18:00  <Alberth> planetmaker: at first people are just completely lost. Adding more stuff doesn't help then perhaps
10:18:05  <Alberth> alandarev: the readme?
10:18:14  <planetmaker> Alberth, or trams...
10:18:27  <planetmaker> Or earlier vehicles
10:18:43  <Alberth> in mt view, having a more organized fruit store would help much more
10:18:50  <Alberth> *my
10:19:30  <Alberth> ie I am here for many years, and I still don't know most of what bananas has :)
10:19:33  <planetmaker> that would help as well, yes
10:20:07  <planetmaker> but I think it's two places which can both be improved. The banana thing is probably easier :D
10:20:35  <Alberth> only two places???  that's easy :)
10:20:38  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i do agree that refittable wagons by default would be good, but "earlier vehicles" don't help much. just throw an error when stating too early, and the user can then look around for NewGRFs
10:20:39  <planetmaker> as other defaults likely imply at least parts of the so-called newgrf utopia
10:21:14  <planetmaker> no "only" in my sentence, Alberth ;-)
10:21:35  <Alberth> extend the install procedure to ship some newgrfs?
10:22:08  <Alberth> hmm, that implies some fixing of the broken newgame UI
10:22:14  <planetmaker> ^^
10:22:26  <planetmaker> the work flow for creating a new game is awkward at best
10:22:49  <Alberth> I was thinking of "confusing at best" :)
10:24:04  <planetmaker> :-)
10:24:31  <Alberth> what stops refactoring that stuff?
10:25:14  <Alberth> you and andy had a go, hackalittlebit had a go, but it never seems to reach code level
10:26:42  <planetmaker> good question. I'd say it's lack of courage
10:26:51  <planetmaker> and it's not a small endeavour
10:27:07  <planetmaker> courage to re-design the main menu and new game menu completely anew
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10:28:34  <Alberth> the design of hackalittlebit looked quite good
10:29:09  <planetmaker> hehe... I was just looking for shots from the old GUI experiments for new game. And found something else:
10:29:09  <Alberth> hi Zuu
10:29:12  <planetmaker> hi Zuu
10:29:18  <Zuu> Hello
10:30:27  <Alberth> planetmaker: QED    :)
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10:38:35  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker is buying a new home? :)
10:38:58  <planetmaker> nope. Not planning to
10:39:12  <planetmaker> I didn't want to use a car parabola ;-)
10:39:34  <planetmaker> but I recently helped friends move :D
10:42:21  <alandarev> that rail uses the lowest curve length speeds of all railtypes.  < Which means??
10:42:36  <alandarev> sharp edges cause larger speed loss compared to other railtypes?
10:45:12  <ZxBiohazardZx> alandarev for NUTS see the readme or ask in the openttdcoop
10:45:16  <planetmaker> curve length is the straight path between two curves in the same direction
10:45:20  <ZxBiohazardZx> as the creator of the set is usually found there
10:45:28  <ZxBiohazardZx> Curve Lenght info can be found on Openttdcoop as well
10:45:35  <planetmaker> V is currently offline
10:45:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> by railtype, speed it shows you the curve lenght
10:45:45  <ZxBiohazardZx>
10:45:46  <planetmaker> if he's online, he's here as well
10:45:59  <Alberth> alandarev: just try it, it's easy enough to test
10:47:16  <ZxBiohazardZx> that cl diagram is accurate
10:47:40  <ZxBiohazardZx> if you need more info on cl's for specific rails or vehicles (slugs for example have insane speeds and insane short CL)
10:47:50  <ZxBiohazardZx> see the readme or simply try
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11:09:15  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, is there a diff mode that ignores "moved" lines?
11:11:13  <ZxBiohazardZx>
11:11:43  <ZxBiohazardZx>
11:11:54  <ZxBiohazardZx> 2 suggests that popped from tc caht :P
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11:58:46  <alandarev> wtf are WETRails? (NUTS)
11:58:50  <alandarev> can't find anything about them in wiki
11:59:20  <alandarev> what, it's ships 0.o
12:00:23  <Wolf01> eh, maybe it rained too much
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12:00:47  <Alberth> it looks like ships :)
12:00:50  <alandarev> is there any way to disable WETRails?
12:00:53  <Alberth> ie it's nuts :)
12:01:05  <Alberth> quak frosch123
12:01:27  <frosch123> moin
12:02:05  <Zuu> alandarev: Just don't use it?
12:02:06  <Alberth> alandarev: if there is, it would be a newgrf parameter
12:02:27  <Zuu> alandarev: Or does AIs in your game use it?
12:03:08  <alandarev> Universal Rail in wiki is described as uber-cool fitting all rails, and slope setting is based on the locomotive property. The only issue it costs more.. But in game Uniersal Rail costs as much as normal rail :(
12:03:40  <ZxBiohazardZx> any tt-forums mod online
12:03:44  <ZxBiohazardZx> we have a spambot posting
12:03:49  <ZxBiohazardZx> in high pace :p
12:03:59  <ZxBiohazardZx> Malcolm298
12:04:10  <alandarev> Zuu: no, but I just find it unreasaonble to have on my server :)
12:05:57  <ZxBiohazardZx> its the latest addition to NUTS
12:06:17  <ZxBiohazardZx> its like ships, its mostly a graphical joke, but they do serve a purpose slow & big capacity
12:09:46  <frosch123> ZxBiohazardZx: afaik only orudge can remove a whole user and all the posts
12:10:00  <frosch123> so, actualy it does not matter how much the bot spams
12:10:40  <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz k i didnt know :P
12:10:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> some forums allow mods to add a user to banlist so he cant create more
12:11:04  <Eddi|zuHause> but every forum admin should be able to move a user into a group where he cannot post anymore
12:11:12  <ZxBiohazardZx> ^^
12:11:15  <frosch123> yeah, might be true :)
12:11:48  <ZxBiohazardZx> last new messages all botspam
12:12:04  <frosch123> well, just return in 12 hours :)
12:12:40  <ZxBiohazardZx> 3 pages worth of topics :P
12:12:41  <ZxBiohazardZx> epic
12:19:09  <frosch123> ZxBiohazardZx: see, compare 3 pages from a spamboit, with 713 pages from davew
12:20:49  <Eddi|zuHause> who?
12:21:03  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, right
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12:22:01  <frosch123> we just need to train the spambots to only post in offtopic :)
12:22:06  <frosch123> noone wil notice
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12:39:26  <Eddi|zuHause> put a checkbox in the signup dialog "are you a spambot?" which will default to on, and humans who read the instructions will be able to turn it off
12:39:46  <Eddi|zuHause> and if it is not turned off, then posting will be disabled :)
12:44:39  <frosch123> yeah, or ask them about the the characters at the end of a word
12:45:56  <Zuu> Or name the author of TTD :-)
12:46:20  <frosch123> oh, yeah, or name the person who contributed most
12:47:20  <Eddi|zuHause> name the current project leader
12:48:02  <Wolf01> why not attach a patch for a bugfix?
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12:49:08  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25179 /extra/musa (3 files) (2013-04-13 12:49:02 UTC)
12:49:09  <DorpsGek> [musa] -Fix(r25162): add missing parameter to parse_file_args
12:50:20  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25180 extra/musa/ (2013-04-13 12:50:14 UTC)
12:50:21  <DorpsGek> [musa] -Fix: The same variable name was used twice for different things when parsing recursive paths
12:54:04  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25181 /extra/musa ( (2013-04-13 12:53:58 UTC)
12:54:05  <DorpsGek> [musa] -Fix: add license.txt to tar with POSIX path separator also on windows, so that can find it
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12:58:14  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25182 /extra/musa (3 files) (2013-04-13 12:58:09 UTC)
12:58:15  <DorpsGek> [musa] -Fix(r25145): Forgot to add a .id and .title file for scenarios and hegihtmaps
12:58:53  <Wolf01> hegiht!
13:00:00  <Zuu> Sorry for the inconvinece that that spelling error has caused you. :-)
13:01:47  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25183 extra/musa/ (2013-04-13 13:01:41 UTC)
13:01:48  <DorpsGek> [musa] -Fix(r25145): retain folders within script content
13:08:11  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25184 extra/musa/ (2013-04-13 13:08:05 UTC)
13:08:12  <DorpsGek> [musa] -Codechange: Remove magic argument type of find_file_in_list
13:09:20  <Zuu> Now my patch queue is empty :-)
13:09:29  <Wolf01> lucky you
13:10:49  <Eddi|zuHause> how dare you
13:10:53  <Wolf01> I have about 5 new features and a full load of bugfixes to commit on our cms
13:11:18  <fonsinchen> What is musa anyway?
13:12:58  <Eddi|zuHause> some automatted bananas upload thingie
13:12:59  <Wolf01> poor boy
13:13:15  <Zuu> fonsinchen: a command line tool for uploading content to bananas
13:14:00  <Zuu> It supports larger file sizes and more dependencies than the web UI.
13:14:09  <fonsinchen> I see.
13:14:34  <Zuu> Eg. for most users, the Web UI is still easiest. For some rare cases, musa will allow doing things not possible via web UI.
13:15:49  <Zuu> For example, for Beginner Tutorial, I want to make the scenario depend on the NewGRF it uses. Also, it should depend on the AI and Game Scirpt used in the scenario. None of this is possible via the bananas web UI.
13:17:56  <fonsinchen> I've noticed the scenario<->newgrf thing before. It's not really impossible to do that in the web UI, is it?
13:18:58  <Zuu> I haven't seen it when updating a scenario.
13:19:24  <Zuu> If you download my Split scenario, you will get a Split GS too, but that is basically a dB hack.
13:19:53  <fonsinchen> I mean, you can state the dependencies but the UI will barf at you then. I think it should be possible to support that, though.
13:21:02  <planetmaker> you can't state with the web interface the proper deps. And yes.
13:21:31  <Zuu> Oh, and while at it, musa support adding dependencies on old content. Eg. libraries older than the last version. However, to declare a dependency is a bit more work than just pick it from a list.
13:23:13  <Zuu> For a musa dependency, you need the md5sum, uniqueid and type of the content to set up a dependency. Note that for scripts, it is not the md5sum of the tar-ball but only of the .nut files inside the tar. For my own use and possible others, I've created which is included now in musa repository. It accepts a .tar from bananas and produces the musa dependency string for that content item.
13:23:23  <frosch123> <- pasting that again :p bananas should autodetect scenario dependencies and reject scnearios with stuff not on bananas :)
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13:27:42  <fonsinchen> I see. Maybe you should turn the "dependencies" thing in the web UI off for scenarios then.
13:29:00  <planetmaker> fonsinchen, there's no doubt that the web UI should be improved
13:29:34  <Zuu> fonsinchen: When you upload new, it will show a list of all possible dependencies as you has not yet selected the type to upload. (and it doesn't use javascript) When you update a scenario, the list of dependencies is empty.
13:29:35  <planetmaker> The difficulty to mess with that is high, though... non-public code, not documented
13:30:09  <planetmaker> due to passwords etc meddled in the code for DB access
13:30:21  <planetmaker> (or was that WT3?)
13:31:15  <Zuu> planetmaker: bananas is in our vcs, however I've been told that the code in the vcs is not up to date compared to the one that is used on the live server.
13:31:17  <fonsinchen> Oh, how lovely.
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13:33:06  <planetmaker> that way then. Doesn't help either :-)
13:34:22  <fonsinchen> It just triggers some not so sweet memories of the job I've finally quit last month ...
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13:42:14  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25185 /trunk/src (20 files in 3 dirs) (2013-04-13 13:42:08 UTC)
13:42:15  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5508]: Remove ambivalent functions CargoList::Empty() and Count(), and replace them with VehicleCargoList::StoredCount(), TotalCount(), StationCargoList::AvailableCount() and TotalCount(). (fonsinchen)
14:06:22  <Eddi|zuHause> in how many ways can you count cargos?
14:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and maybe you didn't mean "ambivalent" but "ambiguous"?
14:08:53  <Eddi|zuHause> or were the functions sometimes good and sometimes evil? :p
14:09:27  <frosch123> maybe :)
14:11:49  <fonsinchen> You can either count the cargo reserved for some vehicle as part of the vehicle's or as part of the station's cargo.
14:14:40  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you know, wrt. counting there are 3 groups of people
14:14:57  <frosch123> those who can count, and those who cannot :)
14:15:12  <planetmaker> no, no. 10 groups of people
14:15:57  <ZxBiohazardZx> Count in this ways is an ammount
14:16:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Count Dracula
14:17:34  <ZxBiohazardZx> :P
14:17:48  <ZxBiohazardZx> you can Count on me
14:17:49  <Eddi|zuHause> or possibly Count Dooku
14:18:02  <ZxBiohazardZx> ^^
14:18:52  <ZxBiohazardZx> Graaf Tel! (Count von Count)
14:19:17  <ZxBiohazardZx> In the Dutch version of the series, Sesamstraat, the Count's name is Graaf Tel (literally, "Count Count").
14:19:32  <frosch123> oi, never knew there was an untranslatable pun in sesame street
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14:21:23  <ZxBiohazardZx> count count is fun, but his name varies from country to country, making a similar joke
14:21:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> count of counting in france, count of numbers in germany
14:22:17  <frosch123> well, it works if you translate it back :p
14:22:28  <frosch123> but there is no joke in "Graaf Tel" or "Graf Zahl"
14:22:59  <ZxBiohazardZx> :P
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14:23:06  <ZxBiohazardZx> true
14:34:08  <alandarev> Help me with finding right Trains set. 2cc is cool but TOO large (though i like its balance), NUTS is good at choice but is too unrealistic, and economically easy
14:34:20  <alandarev> suggest me some other trainset explaining it's pros and cons?
14:35:07  <frosch123> you can adjust any "economically easy" via either a bastcost newgrf, or via freight multiplier
14:35:57  <alandarev> frosch123: true, though with freight multiplier NUTS might become disbalanced, fast and weak trains will no longer be usable
14:36:18  <frosch123> why? just attach multiple of them
14:36:21  <ZxBiohazardZx> try the aus-set
14:36:23  <ZxBiohazardZx> its a nice set
14:36:35  <ZxBiohazardZx> canset is quite cheap
14:36:40  <ZxBiohazardZx> but fun if you like steam/diesels
14:36:52  <ZxBiohazardZx> you can try UKRS, NARS for more  sets
14:37:00  <Zuu> Or play with a Game Script that add some additional challenges to the game.
14:37:03  <ZxBiohazardZx> UKRS is quite balanced set
14:37:39  <planetmaker> alandarev, "right" depends heavily on what you define as "right" or "nice"
14:37:40  <alandarev> Zuu: playing CityBuilder
14:37:45  <planetmaker> there's no answer to it
14:38:35  <alandarev> planetmaker: I tried to define the set I am looking for: balance similar to 2cc but around 5 times less trains and I really hate those monorails, maglev, trams and other stuff
14:38:58  <ZxBiohazardZx> alandarev UKRS
14:39:02  <ZxBiohazardZx> maybe even Dutch Trainset
14:39:02  <planetmaker> similar to 2cc is... a bad definition. What do you want from a trainset?
14:39:08  <planetmaker> what is balance?
14:39:10  <alandarev> ZxBiohazardZx: ok will try UKRS today :)
14:39:25  <planetmaker> 2ccTS is just a HUGE pile of trains thrown together. With rather high running costs by default
14:39:36  <ZxBiohazardZx> he is looking for a set with similar costs/capacities and just less options/choices for engines
14:39:44  <ZxBiohazardZx> try UKRS, aus-set, dutch set
14:39:45  <alandarev> planetmaker: trains are quite expensive at running cost, so the profit is around 2-4 times larger than running cost
14:39:58  <ZxBiohazardZx> they all have good and bad sides
14:40:00  <planetmaker> alandarev, then you simply want to use a base cost set which modifies those
14:40:16  <planetmaker> and then use the trainset which suits you otherwise
14:40:30  <alandarev> planetmaker: :)) you are right. I just realized I would rather want a train set like NUTS but realistic
14:40:42  <alandarev> by like NUTS I mean the balance between prices/runnig cost and types
14:40:57  <planetmaker> use UKRS or NARS. Or Dutchtrains.
14:41:08  <alandarev> okay, thank you, I will try them
14:42:59  <planetmaker> for your own long-term joy stay away from generally unavailable trainsets :) You might otherwise find yourself in the position to not find the needed version at one stage.
14:43:52  <ZxBiohazardZx> planet define generally unavailable trainsets?:P
14:44:03  <planetmaker> not-on-bananas
14:44:22  <alandarev> ok
14:44:43  <ZxBiohazardZx> ah good point
14:45:02  <planetmaker> I just compiled the other day 300+ nightly versions of a NewGRF to find the proper one
14:45:49  <planetmaker> and that was a NewGRF where I *do* have access to sources, thus best preconditions to find unavailable stuff
14:46:59  <planetmaker> <-- if you want to see a case of what might happen otherwise :-)
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14:57:38  <planetmaker> <-- there, Eddi|zuHause, you got your car analogy ;-)
14:59:02  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like i have the monopoly on car references...
14:59:09  <planetmaker> :-)
14:59:22  <planetmaker> I didn't mean to imply that. No, you indeed don't ;-)
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15:17:32  <ZxBiohazardZx> lol
15:17:53  <ZxBiohazardZx> if you cannot handle compiling/building then dont complain and use the provided game?
15:18:35  <ZxBiohazardZx> if only :P
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15:53:59  <Alberth> cmake will not solve the problems, only replace them with several other ones
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15:57:57  <ZxBiohazardZx> partially true
15:58:56  <ZxBiohazardZx> just the interface is somewhat friendlier when you pre-configured it the right way for your personal system/compiler etc
15:59:08  <juzza1> this page doesn't load at all for me, just shows a blank page
15:59:17  <ZxBiohazardZx> loads for me
15:59:24  <Eddi|zuHause> situation: "we need 7 tools to compile a program" - "what? we should make one tool that combines all this" - result: "you now need 8 tools to compile a program"
15:59:50  <juzza1> ok, adding "s" to the end of the address fixed it
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16:00:24  <ZxBiohazardZx> strange Juzza1 it works for me without stuff
16:00:32  <ZxBiohazardZx> Eddi hmmz 7 tools? dafuq?
16:00:41  <ZxBiohazardZx> for trinitycore c++ sources i need 2
16:00:52  <ZxBiohazardZx> i need cmake to generate sln and i need vs to generate .exe
16:01:06  <Eddi|zuHause> well that was the complaint in the forum
16:01:20  <ZxBiohazardZx> Eddi now for ottd, dafuq, 7 programs cant be right :P
16:01:34  <ZxBiohazardZx> i recall 1 or 2
16:01:46  <juzza1> working fine for me now too, don't know what that was
16:01:58  <ZxBiohazardZx> k juzza1 :)
16:02:13  <Eddi|zuHause> you need gcc, you need make, you need several libraries installed, you need patch, you need svn, ...
16:02:21  <ZxBiohazardZx> hmmz
16:02:27  <ZxBiohazardZx> cmake can help then
16:02:37  <ZxBiohazardZx> it merges the make and librairies :P
16:02:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> but yeah
16:02:47  <ZxBiohazardZx> in the end you need all the shit
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16:03:00  <Alberth> just install Linux :p
16:03:01  <Eddi|zuHause> how does cmake help me install libpng-devel?
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16:03:08  <ZxBiohazardZx> only question i wonder is why libs arent in sources / svn as "externals"
16:03:18  <Flygon> I hate chopping off a long tail D:
16:03:37  <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: why would you load this maintenance effort onto the developers?
16:03:37  <ZxBiohazardZx> put libpng-devel in the sources and let cmake build the os/platform correct libs for the solution
16:04:01  <ZxBiohazardZx> "maintenance effort" is not true, you just add them as "externals" folder
16:04:18  <ZxBiohazardZx> we did so for tc, we added them once and its extremely rare they change
16:04:30  <ZxBiohazardZx> thus sit and rot to prevent alot of cry-baby whining helps :P
16:04:45  <frosch123> ZxBiohazardZx: you need all this shit only for windows
16:04:49  <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: and what if several OSes have different versions installed, you need to keep around the sources for every version?
16:04:59  <frosch123> albert is actually correct. if you want a single tool to compile ottd, use linux
16:05:01  <ZxBiohazardZx> frosch true, but then again im wintendo
16:05:25  <ZxBiohazardZx> Eddi you can, all libs are in source, the make-params define what gets used :P
16:05:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> oh well
16:05:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> the gain is none for this proj
16:05:54  <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: i still fail to see how that is helping anybody
16:06:23  <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: there is no reason why a user should re-compile libpng when his repo contains the devel files
16:06:54  <Eddi|zuHause> or the other half dozen libs that openttd depends on
16:07:18  <ZxBiohazardZx> eddi im not suggesting to implement it
16:07:25  <ZxBiohazardZx> dont get me wrong :P
16:07:31  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you did
16:07:35  <ZxBiohazardZx> i dont give a shit if anyone (including myself) cant compile :P
16:07:46  <ZxBiohazardZx> i just cant recall i got externals on tc
16:07:58  <ZxBiohazardZx> we put them in dep
16:08:11  <Eddi|zuHause> even if the initial suggestion was a "joke", does not change the philosophy behind it
16:08:19  <ZxBiohazardZx> ace, bzip2, g3dlite, gsoap, jemalloc, libmpq,mysqllite,zlib etc
16:08:47  <ZxBiohazardZx> CMake configures all shit based on unix/windows/whatever platform you are on
16:09:08  <ZxBiohazardZx> but yes, that does put all dependancies on the plate of devs
16:09:10  <ZxBiohazardZx> choices
16:09:59  <Eddi|zuHause> we already have a perfectly functional configure tool
16:10:47  <ZxBiohazardZx> again dont change it :p
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16:11:29  <ZxBiohazardZx> i just pointed out that there is a way to make those ppl have less programs clicks to compile
16:11:30  <ZxBiohazardZx> :P
16:16:19  <planetmaker> nice, Eddi|zuHause. You wrote exactly on the lines which I was going to reply to, too :-)
16:17:29  <ZxBiohazardZx> ?
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16:23:47  <Alberth> ZxBiohazardZx: but configuration is covered already, we don't need yet another program for that
16:24:12  <Alberth> ie cmake does not solve that you don't have a compiler or all the required libraries
16:24:26  <planetmaker> yeah... configuration won't be easier with cmake. Not a single bit.
16:24:38  <planetmaker> as it's not a tool to install deps
16:24:39  <Alberth> also, cmake sucks big time for development
16:24:44  <planetmaker> ^^ :D
16:25:25  <Alberth> it utterly fails to understand what a makefile is for
16:28:04  <Alberth> it also fails to understand non-standard setups, which is much worse
16:28:54  <planetmaker> I once tried to get cmake make OpenTTD. It was... annoying.
16:29:31  <planetmaker> That was before I properly learnt about how makefiles work :-) Once I knew how they work, OpenTTD seemed very clean and nice in that respect
16:33:09  <Alberth> hmm, those oil wells and forest keep producing more than I can move :)
16:33:38  <Eddi|zuHause> how dare they!
16:33:42  <planetmaker> you keep building less capacity than the industries can ship :-P
16:34:59  <Alberth> upgrading to maglev downstream also takes its time :)
16:35:16  <Alberth> but you do get new pretty nuts pictures!
16:35:23  <planetmaker> :-)
16:35:28  <planetmaker> totally nuts :-P
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17:05:24  <ZxBiohazardZx> i side with planet on the you building under capacity :)
17:06:40  <Eddi|zuHause> "(pretty nuts) pictures" or "pretty (nuts pictures)" :)
17:07:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> share pictures or didnt happen
17:11:54  <Alberth>
17:14:29  <Eddi|zuHause> the landscape looks imho really dull :/
17:14:46  <Eddi|zuHause> not to speak of the ugly maglev tracks
17:15:08  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should try SMITS
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17:34:12  <ZxBiohazardZx> Alberth your issue is throughput
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17:35:15  <ZxBiohazardZx> also why use path signals there?
17:36:28  <Alberth> yeah, I  I was working on that :)
17:36:29  <Eddi|zuHause> use path signals everywhere, unless absolutely necessary
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17:36:51  <Alberth> indeed, I only use path signals
17:39:22  <ZxBiohazardZx>
17:39:24  <ZxBiohazardZx> sexy :P
17:39:35  <ZxBiohazardZx> anyway dont the path signals have longer calc-times
17:39:53  <ZxBiohazardZx> i noticed in some coop games that the path signals where way slower on handling then pre-exit setup
17:40:10  <ZxBiohazardZx> oh well
17:40:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> would it not be easier to move the railyard up and add another platform?;)
17:40:30  <Eddi|zuHause> "slower" in which metric?
17:40:43  <ZxBiohazardZx> time a train waits before it turns green
17:41:15  <ZxBiohazardZx> aka pre-end takes 1tick, pathfinder takes 2-5 ticks while multiple tracks are empty
17:41:26  <ZxBiohazardZx> could be due to pathfinding or i dunno
17:41:32  <Eddi|zuHause> that may be possible, because pre/exit signals do not listen on "path backoff" time
17:42:12  <Eddi|zuHause> which is there to keep the performance heavy pathfinder calculations down
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17:42:37  <Eddi|zuHause> you can set it to 1 (tick), but the game may or may not be playable anymore after this
17:44:25  <ZxBiohazardZx> not risking it and its not up to me
17:44:28  <ZxBiohazardZx> coop servers :P
17:44:43  <ZxBiohazardZx> i started playing there like a while ago (cant remember) but i did get used to it quite fast
17:44:46  <Alberth> I just added two platforms :p
17:44:50  <ZxBiohazardZx> ah ok
17:45:22  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25186 /trunk/src/lang (danish.txt korean.txt) (2013-04-13 17:45:14 UTC)
17:45:23  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:24  <DorpsGek> danish - 1 changes by frosch
17:45:25  <DorpsGek> korean - 2 changes by telk5093
17:45:41  <Alberth> we have a new danish translator :P
17:49:43  <frosch123> Sacro did not wanted to become one
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18:18:31  <HellTiger>
18:19:13  <MNIM-zZz> eww 9gag
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18:20:28  <ZxBiohazardZx>
18:22:27  <Sacro> frosch123: Hej!
18:23:06  <Eddi|zuHause> looks like pretty much every openttd screenshot on the forums :p
18:23:20  <Eddi|zuHause> huge junction without any vehicles :)
18:25:57  <MNIM-zZz> hahaha
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18:44:06  <Eddi|zuHause> so, what happened to java applications being "portable"?
18:44:09  <Eddi|zuHause> /home/johannes/.minecraft/bin/natives/ wrong ELF class: ELFCLASS32 (Possible cause: architecture word width mismatch)
18:45:35  <frosch123> what's the problem? do they not fit on a portable usb stick?
18:45:37  <Alberth> they use non-java libraries?
18:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm just saying...
18:46:23  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, next game then...
18:46:39  <ZxBiohazardZx>
18:46:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> nice
18:49:39  <Eddi|zuHause> what is "nice"?
18:51:54  <__ln__> a city in southern france
18:51:59  <ZxBiohazardZx> ^^
18:52:06  <ZxBiohazardZx> that road in st petersburg is not bad
18:52:11  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that would be "Nice"
18:53:09  <Wolf01> ZxBiohazardZx, give it 5 years with snow and bad maintenance
18:54:51  <Eddi|zuHause> how can a steam update be 100MB?
18:55:08  <Eddi|zuHause> how much can there possibly be in steam??
18:55:23  <glx> flash;)
18:56:36  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, there was something about steam not showing texts in wine
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19:04:24  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, "converting existing installation" - from what to what? - and a "progress bar" that stays completely empty
19:04:58  <Eddi|zuHause> obviously i'm not going to play anything tonight :/
19:08:25  <ZxBiohazardZx> Wolf01 snow underneath nah
19:08:37  <ZxBiohazardZx> but yeah wet and cold
19:08:50  <ZxBiohazardZx> most likely they will use salts or chlorides to fuck it up :)
19:08:59  <Eddi|zuHause> yeehah, and a "timeout" error...
19:09:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and a "this article does not exist" error on clicking the link
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19:10:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you know, chloride is the main component of salt...
19:10:34  <ZxBiohazardZx> yes but not all salts are chlorides :P
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19:11:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Natrium Chloride for your kitchen salts. on roads you'll probably meed Calcium Chloride or Magnesium Chloride
19:11:11  <ZxBiohazardZx> ow it is actuallyXD
19:11:14  <ZxBiohazardZx> NaCL :)
19:11:29  <Eddi|zuHause> *meet
19:12:15  <ZxBiohazardZx> ureum or calcium-magnesium-acetate are safe for steel
19:12:21  <ZxBiohazardZx> or metal
19:12:47  <ZxBiohazardZx> meh it will rot
19:12:52  <ZxBiohazardZx> care less, its awesome for now
19:13:39  <V453000> unicorns
19:14:25  <Eddi|zuHause> you'll probably find chloride in unicorns as well
19:14:43  <ZxBiohazardZx> nah
19:14:53  <ZxBiohazardZx> unicorns are made of rainbows and ponytails
19:15:27  <ZxBiohazardZx> ow no sorry
19:15:27  <Eddi|zuHause> and who says there is no chloride in rainbows?
19:15:34  <ZxBiohazardZx> Moonlight and Magic :)
19:15:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> One popular opinion is that unicorns are made from moonlight and magic.
19:15:55  <ZxBiohazardZx> thus it is true
19:15:58  <Eddi|zuHause> where is that popular?
19:16:06  <ZxBiohazardZx> your argument is invalid, cause.
19:18:55  <goodger> "natrium chloride" what the hell, Eddi|zuHause
19:19:10  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, right, i forgot
19:19:20  <Eddi|zuHause> it's stubidly called "sodium" in weird language
19:19:45  <Eddi|zuHause> because, why would you call the "Na" element something that doesn't start with NA ;)
19:20:52  <goodger> hey, just because it's a stupid name doesn't mean it's right
19:21:23  <goodger> we use words like "gold", "silver", "lead", "copper", "iron" and so forth, as well
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19:21:58  <frosch123> you should all talk latin
19:22:26  <Eddi|zuHause> not all element symbols are derived from their latin name :)
19:22:37  <goodger> all of those are
19:22:45  <frosch123> but they are all made to look latin
19:23:09  <goodger> some are named so recently that they have latin-like names that match their elemental symbols
19:23:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure no ancient roman knew the word "Aluminium"
19:23:32  <frosch123> nor Americum :p
19:23:48  <frosch123> or Copernicum
19:23:57  <frosch123> or Tycoonium
19:24:09  <goodger> next you'll be saying "milliards", tsk
19:24:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i've been saying milliards for years
19:25:43  <Eddi|zuHause> [Sa Apr 26 2008] [01:12:52] <Eddi|zuHause2>     ben_goodger: good luck feeding 6 milliard people with a neolithic society ;)
19:25:55  <goodger> *shudder*
19:26:33  <frosch123> should we say "mille" when we mean 1000 ?
19:26:51  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the french do that
19:26:56  <goodger> revert directly to latin numerals
19:27:17  <ZxBiohazardZx> there is no element with the letter J :(
19:27:18  <goodger> in fact, I think this whole electricity thing is dangerously modern
19:27:21  <frosch123> yeah, let's play ottd I.IV
19:27:42  <ZxBiohazardZx> the only missing ones are J and Q
19:27:44  <frosch123> ZxBiohazardZx: I and J are essentially the same letter
19:27:59  <Eddi|zuHause> allegedly, the subtraction rule (IV) is actually a modern-time-y invention
19:28:49  <Eddi|zuHause> ZxBiohazardZx: latin doesn't really have a J
19:28:51  <frosch123> is it? i have seen many IIII for 4, but 9 has always been IX
19:28:53  <goodger> so, twelfth century?
19:29:28  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think i've seen some examples for VIIII
19:32:38  <frosch123> hmm, medieval established K for 151 :s
19:33:53  <goodger> wat
19:40:33  <frosch123> <- a table of nonsense :)
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20:04:24  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i somehow doubt those were widespread, though
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20:08:30  <frosch123> yeah, given the amount it looks more like regional dialects
20:14:59  <glx> <goodger> "natrium chloride" what the hell, Eddi|zuHause <-- I just call it salt
20:15:31  <glx> or "chlorure de sodium"
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20:31:21  <andythenorth> shading a coal mine Dan drew....
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21:03:34  <V453000> the buildings look excellent andythenorth
21:03:49  <andythenorth> :)
21:03:50  <V453000> the left silo or whatever it is might use some improvements id say
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21:04:10  <andythenorth> winding gear?
21:04:14  <andythenorth> totally redrawing that :)
21:04:31  <V453000> id say the construction legs could use some bright pixels and the gray thing on the top could use some more shades to make it more recognizable what it is
21:04:44  <andythenorth> I can haz not shaded it yet :)
21:04:53  <V453000> rite :)
21:05:01  <andythenorth> supposed to be these
21:05:02  <V453000> but the 2 buildings are absolutely awesome
21:05:05  <andythenorth>
21:05:12  <V453000> mhm
21:05:20  <andythenorth> replace the opengfx coal mine? :P
21:05:46  <V453000> totally different style but you have to start improving from somewhere :
21:05:47  <V453000> :P
21:06:42  <V453000> I am not sure about the heaps tho
21:07:10  <V453000> the brighter gray could imo use one/two more brighter levels for more highlight, now it is completely random seemingly
21:07:22  <V453000> but honestly drawing heaps is wtf-hard
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22:18:04  <Wolf01> good night
22:18:14  <__ln__> gn Wolf01
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23:28:42  <Eddi|zuHause> why does oberhÃŒmer feel the need to include a spy-image in his signature?
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