Log for #openttd on 1st May 2013:
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00:35:01  <Salamander> Hey
00:35:56  <Salamander> Could someone please link me to the best place to learn optimal railroad layouts? Something that will explain when to lay single-direction tracks instead of having a train go this way and that on one track, explain best signaling techniques, etc
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03:52:02  <Flygon> Salamander: May be best to try and get someone to help via Multiplayer
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04:46:18  <Salamander> Flygon i saw some guides on the net years ago, but i thought i'd ask here for an officially recommended and up-to-date one
04:47:20  <Flygon> Uuuh...
04:47:26  <Flygon> I'm not really sure how to help there x:
04:47:29  <Flygon> I'm mostly self-taught
04:47:54  <Flygon> It doesn't help that optimal is very situation dependant...
04:48:12  <Flygon> Sometimes a cloverleaf junction for two lines makes sense, but if you have enough spare space?...
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08:33:15  <V453000> planetmaker: where in the ogfx repository could I find RV tunnel sprites please? :)
08:33:22  <V453000> I cant say I orientate in it too well :d
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08:34:10  <V453000> ah roadtunnel
08:34:15  <V453000> hideous name!
08:34:24  <planetmaker> :D so totally unobvious :-)
08:35:54  <V453000> I just got lost in the folders
08:36:37  <V453000> oh right the wider tunnels are a part of the american roads
08:36:48  <planetmaker> yeah
08:36:52  <V453000> it looks really wtf tbh
08:37:16  <V453000> the 2 remaining pixels on the top need to be there to make it look somewhat centered I think
08:37:31  <V453000> or the few pixels on the other side need to be occupied as well
08:39:14  <V453000> road tunnels are defined including the base tile also in newGRFs, not just in base set, right?
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08:42:00  <planetmaker> yes. It's two sprites per tunnel entrance
08:42:19  <planetmaker> One ground including road and grass. The other the top, including grass
08:42:28  <V453000> yep
08:42:41  <planetmaker> were it for road types, you could do it like rail tunnels. But not roads. That's simple base set replacement
08:42:44  <planetmaker> nothing more feasible
08:42:55  <V453000> I actually didnt do rail tunnels :P but I know what you mean
08:43:29  <V453000> I will see what I can do ... might have some contribution to ogfx if you will like it; the current road tunnels are tbh pretty bad
08:44:28  <planetmaker> sweet
08:44:47  <planetmaker> agreed, it could be nicer
08:46:16  <Supercheese> 'night
08:46:23  <planetmaker> g'night Supercheese
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08:47:58  <V453000> morning (:
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09:01:01  <Terkhen> good morning
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09:53:19  <V453000> sup pm :) wip but I am getting something ... the pattern on top/sides is optional of course, but I like it there :>
09:53:47  <V453000> also I would prooobably keep the colour grey, could try some recolouring magix though
09:54:02  <V453000> + climate details + whatever :)
09:56:26  <V453000> ... this is the american version, slimming down will be easy
09:56:42  <V453000> making a version for those as well while at it
10:02:17  <V453000> still nice id say (just changed base set)
10:06:15  <sla_ro|master> nice
10:07:00  <planetmaker> nice indeed. V453000 did you find this file?
10:08:03  <planetmaker> with that climate-stuff is pretty easy. Tunnels of course will remain more difficult, but could be done similarily wrt ground
10:08:52  <V453000> what do I open xcf in? :D
10:08:57  <planetmaker> gimp
10:09:01  <V453000> duh
10:09:51  <V453000> by climate stuff I meant dust in tropic/flower pieces in temp, etc
10:10:01  <V453000> AND UNICORNS IN TOYLAND
10:10:09  <V453000> :D ok maybe not unicorns
10:10:13  <planetmaker> :-)
10:10:18  <V453000> but dont tell frosch
10:10:26  <planetmaker> hehe
10:11:30  <V453000> which of the versions do you like most? I like the one with both roof and side thingies
10:11:44  <V453000> tunolz.png has 3 versions, updated like 2 mins ago
10:12:45  <V453000> the top sprite has 1 px line in its bottom to integrate well into the other sprite... barely noticeable
10:13:08  <V453000> (only applies to the two with the grid on top)
10:14:59  <planetmaker> which versions?
10:15:30  <V453000> right, by the infrastructure file you meant to have a source with layers
10:15:40  <V453000> has 3 of em
10:16:01  <V453000> well I could include the "clean" 4th version but I dont consider that one nice enough :P
10:16:36  <V453000> try F5 in case there is only one set of tunnels :)
10:17:48  <planetmaker> oh, those are different :D
10:18:38  <V453000> !! (:
10:19:16  <Zuu> I like # 2 and #3 from the left (starting to count at 1)
10:19:38  <Zuu> hmm what is the difference between #1 and #3?
10:19:41  <V453000> added 4th version (f5 :P)
10:19:46  <planetmaker> Not sure I see a difference between left (=1) and 3 (from left)
10:20:05  <planetmaker> nor do I see much difference now between 2 and 4 :D
10:20:07  <V453000> the side wall
10:20:09  <Zuu> Ah, the colour of the land wall
10:20:21  <V453000> its not colour :D its shade :P
10:20:23  <planetmaker> ah, the ^^
10:20:39  <V453000> or pattern/whatever you want to call it :)
10:20:42  <planetmaker> left most
10:20:50  <V453000> extra stuff to not make it look empty/flat/too clean
10:20:53  <planetmaker> is my preferred one
10:21:05  <V453000> I agree
10:21:17  <V453000> now to figure out which hand is left
10:21:25  <planetmaker> lol :P
10:21:27  <V453000> :P
10:21:37  <planetmaker> left is there where the thumb is right ;-)
10:21:49  <V453000> but yeah I also think that one is best :)
10:21:56  <V453000> haha :D
10:22:08  <Zuu> Or the hand which isn't used to change gear in your car :-p
10:22:18  <V453000> british? :P
10:22:25  <Zuu> So if you have an automatic, you have two left hands :p
10:22:46  <V453000> well you also use the gearchanging thing in automatic cars
10:22:48  <planetmaker> :D Though the automatic cars I drove also had a gear shift stick :D
10:24:01  <Zuu> 5-10 years ago I'd say the handbrake is always found on the right side, but nowdays the electric hand brake tend to end up on the left side.
10:24:49  <Zuu> And I guess there is some car with the gear box on the wrong side. :-)
10:25:56  <V453000> british cars have it on the left hand I believe
10:26:06  <V453000> and racing cars have it on the steering wheel :P so not the best example
10:26:13  <planetmaker> Japanese do, too
10:26:19  <V453000> ah yeah
10:26:28  <V453000> Japanese are weird in everything :P
10:30:56  <V453000> lunch & continue :) cya for now
10:31:46  <V453000> I was also considering different colours but the gray seems to be best to me
10:44:40  <planetmaker> yes, gray likely is best
10:44:49  <planetmaker> in order to not use the banned r-word
10:44:50  <Zuu> Regardin the tunnels. #1 or 3 is possibe a bit nicer looking than #2. However, #2 is a bit more discrete, and the tunnels are not the main feature of the game, so for that reason I would probably go with #2 even if #1 and 3 may look a bit more cool.
10:45:42  <planetmaker> Sorry, I don't get it... what do you mean with "more discrete"?
10:45:53  <Zuu> less eye catching
10:46:01  <planetmaker> ah
10:46:34  <Zuu> Eg. look good, but don't draw all attention to the tunnels.
10:46:55  <planetmaker> you think that will be an issue? Honestly... I don't think it's a good argument :D
10:47:09  <planetmaker> sounds like "don't make it too nice - it's not important enough"
10:47:32  <planetmaker> that argument won't win us improved graphics
10:49:14  <Zuu> planetmaker: would you use pink station entrences if they were very well made?
10:49:22  <Zuu> s/station/tunnel/
10:49:30  <planetmaker> no, I wouldn't. But on reasons "doesn't look good" :-)
10:53:20  <V453000> I WOULD :D
10:55:10  <V453000> ... in toyland :)
10:57:20  <V453000> also what is the status of opengfx snow? because it is awful dark and the even darker bits make it look really, really bad : (
10:57:57  <planetmaker> there's no special status about it
10:58:17  <frosch123> V453000: i watched 5th element earlier this week. now i wonder whether rainbow elephants are more awesome than unicorns
10:58:26  <planetmaker> that doesn't mean things can't be changed if anyone starts bothering about graphics and actually doing something about it
10:58:27  <V453000> :D
10:58:44  <V453000> thats what I thought pm :P
10:59:31  <V453000> was more like asking on how much is the current option popular
10:59:34  <frosch123> <- his name is picasso apparently
11:00:02  <V453000> omfg frosch123
11:00:11  <planetmaker> V453000, I don't know :-)
11:00:35  <planetmaker> it's like different kinds of snow. TTD's is fresher while OpenGFX' snow is on the ground for some time, more icy
11:00:51  <V453000> ok, lets substitute publically popular with "popular in your own eyes :D"
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11:01:22  <V453000> somewhat, I also know that many people are a bitch about "eyes hurting from TTD snow"
11:01:32  <V453000> but the ogfx snow looks so dirty and stuff :s
11:02:19  <V453000> I will see what can be done
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11:02:46  <planetmaker> :-)
11:03:26  <V453000> will probably try to find a compromise between the two
11:04:46  <planetmaker> V453000, it need not be a compromise. Personally I like fesher looking snow, like the kitchy drawings from children's christmas story books better
11:04:59  <planetmaker> not realistic. But... nice :D
11:05:54  <V453000> well, I personally absolutely love the TTD snow, but if it was a tiny little bit darker, it might hurt less eyes and still be nice
11:05:55  <V453000> will see
11:07:04  <planetmaker> yes, please give it a try
11:07:22  <planetmaker> V453000, might be easy if you grab ogfx-landscape newgrf... and simply use it.
11:07:29  <planetmaker> it basically provides a replacement already
11:07:35  <planetmaker> thus you can just exchange sprites
11:07:50  <V453000> right
11:08:10  <planetmaker> grab the compiled NML if you don't want / can use the makefile:
11:08:10  <V453000> I doubt I will compile that on windoze anyway so I might just use mockups for now
11:08:14  <V453000> oh :)
11:09:08  <planetmaker> thus put that NML file in the repo checkout and compile it manually. Should work for you
11:12:11  <V453000> pulling =D
11:12:19  <V453000> k guess not
11:12:28  <V453000> how do I  get the repository? :s
11:12:29  <planetmaker> what not?
11:12:42  <planetmaker> hg clone
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11:13:32  <Wolf01> hello
11:15:59  <V453000> =D got stuff
11:21:03  <V453000> hm, added the NML, added compile.bat buuut I guess I am missing custom_tags as it screams that VERSION from the english.lng {VERSION} is unfriendly
11:23:53  <V453000> apart from it being a bitch and hating me
11:27:20  <planetmaker> right. just create a custom_tags.txt with a {VERSION} tag
11:27:28  <V453000> ok
11:27:29  <V453000> :D
11:27:35  <planetmaker> nmlc ogfx-landscape.nml should then do the trick
11:27:45  <planetmaker> when in the main directory of that newgrf
11:27:50  <V453000> aye
11:28:26  <planetmaker> I didn't think of custom_tags.txt at all tbh :-) And... version is pointless for testing anyway
11:29:15  <V453000> indeed
11:31:38  <V453000> somehow it rejects custom tags too. solved by removing {VERSION} from them language files for now :D
11:32:32  <planetmaker> same effect
11:33:07  <V453000> yes but it just had to be unfriendly to make its point
11:33:37  <planetmaker> custom_tags.txt with a link like VERSION: blah should have done the trick
11:33:41  <planetmaker> do you not use it?
11:33:43  <V453000> someone should write a study if it is possible for computers to hate people, because I think I know the answer
11:33:53  <V453000> I did that :S but didnt work
11:33:59  <V453000> did that
11:34:36  <planetmaker> ok :-)
11:34:58  <planetmaker> question related to that: why put UNIV etc into it? It makes it untranslatable
11:35:23  <planetmaker> rather put that as separate string in the lang file STR_NAME_UNIV: ...
11:35:36  <V453000> it isnt there anymore
11:35:41  <planetmaker> and use {STRING} in the strings where it's used... as parameter. *should* work. ah. ok
11:36:04  <oskari89> Seems that there is some odd behaviour after train has enough hp
11:36:06  <V453000> I only have version there atm
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11:37:16  <oskari89> Train with 1993410 hp works well, but 2657873 hp doesn't work anymore :D
11:37:24  <oskari89> It just goes 2 km/h
11:37:39  <V453000> :>
11:38:14  <planetmaker> oskari89, both values likely are too much. But overflow to different values
11:38:32  <planetmaker> way too much
11:38:42  <oskari89> Yes, i think so, the second one
11:38:53  <oskari89> Fortunately 1993410 hp is enough :)
11:39:04  <planetmaker> 16bit, thus
11:39:09  <planetmaker> ~64k is max
11:39:38  <oskari89> Yes, but in trainconsist
11:39:41  <oskari89> *train consist
11:39:44  <planetmaker> @calc 1993410 % (2**16)
11:39:44  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 27330
11:39:48  <planetmaker> ^
11:39:59  <planetmaker> @calc 2657873 % (2**16)
11:40:00  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 36433
11:40:02  <planetmaker> hm
11:41:28  <frosch123> @calc (2**31) / 746
11:41:28  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 2878664.40751
11:41:41  <frosch123> almost :p
11:42:36  <frosch123> @calc (2**31) / 746 / 25
11:42:36  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 115146.5763
11:42:42  <frosch123> so, not maglev
11:42:52  <oskari89> Maglev it is
11:43:29  <frosch123> then that should be your hp limit
11:44:00  <frosch123> hmm, no, for maglev it's the other way around
11:44:10  <frosch123> @calc (2**31) / 746 * 25
11:44:10  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 71966610.1877
11:44:35  <frosch123> hmm, i would guess for maglev 2878664 is the maximum
11:44:48  <oskari89> Ok
11:45:01  <frosch123> for other acceleraton types, also the speed matters
11:45:19  <frosch123> @calc (2**31) / 746 / 18
11:45:19  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 159925.800417
11:45:35  <frosch123> no, speed does not matter, ^^ thats the limit for other acceleration types
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11:58:57  <frosch123> "call $+5" <- damn, i don't know that syntax
12:04:37  <frosch123> google knows :)
12:06:05  <planetmaker> what's the general rule on the height of a sloped tile?
12:06:28  <planetmaker> lowest corner? Or average (steep slopes)?
12:06:43  <frosch123> there is no general rule :p
12:07:03  <frosch123> if you talk about slopes you usually have the height of the lowest corner + slope
12:07:20  <planetmaker> I mean what is being reported as tile height to newgrfs
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12:07:32  <frosch123> when you talk about foundations, you usually have the lowest corner and the slope of a fake-slope on top of the surface
12:07:46  <frosch123> for snow it's all weird
12:07:53  <frosch123> planetmaker: which variable? :p
12:08:08  <frosch123> anyway, maybe grfv8 unified it to lowest corner
12:08:10  <frosch123> not sure :p
12:08:22  <planetmaker> nearby_tile_height(0, 0) in NML :D
12:08:49  <frosch123> that's lowest corner then
12:09:17  <planetmaker> also for steep slopes?
12:09:20  <frosch123> yes
12:09:33  <planetmaker> ok, thanks :-) Makes the answer / code easy
12:09:51  <planetmaker> <-- to that
12:10:35  <planetmaker> or better said, easier
12:11:13  <frosch123> coast check is one of the hardest ones
12:11:29  <frosch123> there is no consistent definition whether coast counts as water tile or not :)
12:12:01  <planetmaker> yes, indeed
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12:24:44  <planetmaker> uhm.. which way did direction wrt nearby tile checks go?
12:25:30  <frosch123> X is SW
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12:25:32  <frosch123> Y is SE
12:25:32  <planetmaker> nvm... NE is -1 in X
12:25:37  <planetmaker> thanks :-)
12:26:07  <frosch123> Z is upwards, and the stuff is positively oriented
12:26:15  <planetmaker> :-)
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13:08:42  <frosch123> <- makes sense?
13:14:45  <planetmaker> makes sense
13:16:28  <V453000>
13:16:41  <V453000> opengfx size :)
13:17:15  <frosch123> are you submitting them to ogfx? or are you doing your own terrain set?
13:17:20  <planetmaker> what's the dirt strip in front of the entry?
13:17:37  <V453000> dirt strip was there originally, considering what to do with it
13:17:43  <V453000> frosch123: not doing my own terrain set :P
13:18:00  <frosch123> i think the "dirt strip" should be a concrete wall
13:18:11  <V453000> I thought it is a shame that the american roads have so ugly tunnels so might do ogfx at the same time
13:18:13  <planetmaker> not sure it makes sense. ^ that or bare land colour. Not sure
13:18:24  <V453000> yeah, something different than that
13:18:28  * Zuu like the lighter dirt strip in this last image compared to the darker one in the previous image.
13:18:29  <V453000> I didnt do anythign with it yet :)
13:18:58  <V453000> I think it should be concrete probably
13:19:04  <Zuu> But you could also try with concrete
13:19:08  <Belugas> hello
13:19:12  <V453000> hel0
13:19:19  <planetmaker> helo Belugas
13:19:37  <Zuu> Dirt will not stay perfectly vertical in the r-world.
13:19:55  <planetmaker> r!!
13:19:58  <planetmaker> :-)
13:20:03  <frosch123> u!!
13:20:20  <Belugas> hehehe
13:20:35  <Zuu> When do we get UTS - Unrealistic Tunnel Set?
13:20:44  <planetmaker> UBS ;-)
13:20:45  <frosch123> Zuu: we already have it
13:20:49  <planetmaker> unrealistic base set :-P
13:21:06  <frosch123> in many sets tunnel entry and exit are not aligned to each other
13:21:24  <frosch123> but maybe that's not what you meant :p
13:21:25  <Zuu> also they allow vehicles taller than the tunnle to enter.
13:21:35  <V453000> ubs isnt impossible :)
13:21:39  <planetmaker> they weren't for a long time in opengfx either... until I fixed it ;-)
13:22:45  <frosch123> hmm, i should start cooking, i won't get less hungry :p
13:22:48  <V453000> it was in both opengfx and the american roads so I felt like keeping that :P
13:29:47  <Eddi|zuHause>  <planetmaker> uhm.. which way did direction wrt nearby tile checks go? <-- i always use the "right hand rule" for that
13:30:32  <Eddi|zuHause> thumb is X, index finger is Y, middle finger is Z
13:30:50  <Eddi|zuHause> and then turn it into the directions applicable
13:31:31  <Eddi|zuHause> when you know the top corner is the origin, and Z is up, the other fingers need to point to you
13:31:39  <Eddi|zuHause> and then you have the right orientation
13:32:05  <V453000> :D forgot to raise Y
13:33:59  <Eddi|zuHause>  <frosch123> hmm, i should start cooking, i won't get less hungry :p <-- it wears off after like two weeks :p
13:36:03  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, and how does that tell you the orientation of the axes? you can rotate your hand around z-axis just fine
13:36:45  <planetmaker> "fingers need to point to you" is my memory not part of a right hand rule :-)
13:37:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i said the origin is at the top
13:37:52  <Eddi|zuHause> so fingers need to go along the edges from the origin
13:40:49  <Eddi|zuHause> why is this online game thingie still in the openttd section?
13:46:30  <V453000>
13:48:09  <planetmaker> where should it go? Off-topic?
13:48:12  <planetmaker> ^ @ Eddi|zuHause
13:48:44  <planetmaker> general TT?
13:49:51  <Eddi|zuHause> how should i know... i never read the other forums
13:50:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought there was a "other transport games" forum, but seems that is only a section with subforums
13:50:54  <Eddi|zuHause> then off-topic would probably be best
13:51:15  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not real transport, and it's not really TT-related
13:51:44  <planetmaker> there you go
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14:10:39  <Salamander> Hey
14:10:42  <Salamander> Could someone please link me to the best place to learn optimal railroad layouts? Something that will explain when to lay single-direction tracks instead of having a train go this way and that on one track, explain best signaling techniques, etc
14:11:12  <V453000>
14:11:16  <planetmaker> what's your definition of "optimal"? :-)
14:11:29  <Salamander> planetmaker the guide should cover that :D
14:11:44  <planetmaker> then checkout blog and wiki of openttdcoop ;-)
14:11:48  <Salamander> thank you
14:12:05  <Salamander> i've been playing ttd and openttd for years
14:12:08  <Salamander> then one day i tried multiplayer
14:12:10  <Salamander> build my empire
14:12:16  <Salamander> along comes a guy from brazil
14:12:22  <Salamander> starts building the funniest of things
14:12:25  <Salamander> my friend and i laugh
14:12:32  <Salamander> a cyber-year later, he's a billionaire
14:12:43  <Salamander> the laughing was over, back to kindergarten for me.
14:13:03  <Wolf01> sounds like starcraft...
14:14:11  <Salamander> and that was about 4 years ago, which is also the last time i seriously played openttd, so by now things have progressed and i want to learn
14:14:23  <V453000> you usually dont laught in starcraft when the opponent is billionaire :P
14:14:28  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
14:14:39  <Salamander> no you laugh before that when he does things that dont seem to make sense ;]
14:14:51  <planetmaker> many new things added in the last 4 years
14:15:02  <planetmaker> also and especially multiplayer improved a lot IMHO
14:15:12  <Salamander> oh oh OH! Important question!
14:15:15  <Salamander> Does it run on android?
14:15:36  <V453000> mobile phone progaming?
14:15:40  <Salamander> tablet
14:15:48  <V453000> same
14:16:02  <Salamander> was your question an answer?
14:16:31  <planetmaker> there's likely some inofficial port somewhere. But there's no official support for android or iOS
14:16:47  <Salamander> ok
14:16:54  <Wolf01> I resolved with a win 7 tablet :P
14:16:56  <Salamander> maybe in 4 years...
14:17:06  <Salamander> openttd over vnc
14:17:14  <Salamander> ssh -X
14:17:19  <planetmaker> that does work
14:17:28  <V453000> no I was just poking the fact that you want to seriously learn which is kind of not too compatible with tablet :P
14:17:37  <V453000> mouse is mouse
14:17:41  <V453000> hotkeys help too
14:18:18  <Salamander> i wouldnt say that... of all the games, openttd is more touchscreen-compatible than the average
14:18:56  <Salamander> well thanks for the info, have a nice day :)
14:19:03  <Salamander> i'll just lurk here for a while
14:19:03  <frosch123> [16:14] <V453000> you usually dont laught in starcraft when the opponent is billionaire :P <- in starcraft you say: if your are rich, you are probably bad
14:19:36  <V453000> :D alright frosch
14:19:38  <Wolf01> yes, at least all of the basic things are working with simple touch, the ctrl key is a bit tricky
14:20:22  <frosch123> yeah, only pros can do a ctrl+touch :p
14:21:59  <Wolf01> I set up a swipe to toggle the ctrl key, but I would like to design a new gui just to help touch screen use, when I'll have enough willpower to start developing again for OTTD :P
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14:22:29  <V453000> XD
14:24:29  <Salamander> random idea - get terrain from google earth
14:24:44  <planetmaker> and then what?
14:24:57  <Wolf01> roads and tracks too
14:24:58  <planetmaker> and... who pays for the license to use and distribute it?
14:25:30  <Wolf01> I want OTTD for Wii-U :(
14:25:35  <V453000> XD
14:25:52  <V453000> might result in simulating an epileptic collapse Wolf01  :D
14:26:03  <V453000> running around the room moving around with the controller everywhere
14:26:20  <V453000> "building a station"
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14:31:23  <sla_ro|master> :o, stay on toilet and make great transport tycoons ;)
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14:34:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Salamander: there are topics in the forum how to create heightmaps for real-world-locations
14:35:06  <V453000> oh, r word heightmaps :D
14:35:09  <V453000> ×3
14:35:12  <V453000> <3
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14:40:30  <planetmaker> get a decent DEM programme, export map. done ;-)
14:42:26  <planetmaker> frosch123, not posting the sound topic yet?
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14:43:19  <planetmaker> my personal preference is to allow L2 ;-) (i.e. for gradual loading)
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14:51:48  <frosch123> planetmaker:
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14:54:01  <__ln___>
14:55:01  <frosch123> __ln___: you should check whether they are all listed on wikipedia/openttd
14:55:24  <frosch123> wiki lists all ottd-related non-sense papers to prove notability
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15:06:45  <Rubidium> I don't see anything new (to me) there, except one Finnish one
15:13:24  <__ln___> the finnish one's abstract (in finnish) claims "... openttd is an open source game project, in which the author has been for seven years"
15:13:59  <planetmaker> aha. Depends probably on the definition of "in the project"
15:14:10  <planetmaker> I've a rough idea who is it, though
15:14:42  <planetmaker> I guess with a certain justification many in this channel can claim that :-)
15:15:59  <Rubidium> "I set this goal in 2010 and was reached on Christmas Eve 2011"
15:16:24  <frosch123> yeah, some of the idlers in this channel have been here way longer than me
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15:17:10  <Rubidium> anyhow, googling the name of the author gives you a pretty clear picture I guess
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15:33:12  <Eddi|zuHause> haha... updating an old patch, 5 trivial one-line-hunks, every single one failed to apply :p
15:35:07  <Eddi|zuHause> it's "only" r19xxx
15:35:44  <michi_cc> I had a similar experience recently, and each and every failure was because someone finally fixed some comment typos (so the diff context didn't match anymore :)
15:38:55  * V453000 plays card SpriteStrike at pm. planetmaker takes heavy damage. Awaiting retaliation...
15:38:57  <V453000> card:
15:39:58  <planetmaker> you definitely played too much magic ;-)
15:40:12  <V453000> I actually never played that :D
15:40:28  <V453000> or any similar card game
15:41:02  <V453000> either way, the sprites should be complete
15:41:11  <V453000> I did not touch snowy thingies yet, that will take time
15:42:03  <planetmaker> snowy... the snowy version should be more snowed on top of the tunnel, yes :-)
15:42:30  <V453000> the original has no snow
15:42:50  <V453000> thus I would take this as current version, with mind to add snow when it is redone
15:42:58  <V453000> which might happen soon
15:43:19  <planetmaker> what is original? Original is what we make it
15:43:35  <V453000> I mean original/previous version :)
15:44:56  <V453000> no snow on snowy tunnels :P I would keep that for now, and correct it after I have an idea how snow looks
15:45:24  <planetmaker> ah, that you mean
15:45:29  <planetmaker> fair enough
15:45:50  <V453000> yes :))
15:46:34  <V453000> I hope it fits perfectly, I did edit a few pixels in layout
15:46:51  <V453000> but according to mockup tests it should work
15:47:04  <planetmaker> you didn't test with ogfx-landscape? :-)
15:47:41  <V453000> o
15:47:47  <V453000> cheating!
15:47:50  <planetmaker> hm... definitely it will become a parameter in ogfx-landscape :)
15:48:41  <V453000> uhmmmm
15:48:54  <V453000> in which image are tunnel sprites in ogfx-landscape
15:49:01  <planetmaker> I mean the tunnel type. Will make these the default
15:49:15  <planetmaker> some replace, I'm sure
15:49:27  <planetmaker> if not... it will need adding
15:49:34  <planetmaker> as it then is an omission
15:49:38  <V453000> got it
15:50:32  <planetmaker> <-- looking at this it might currently not be included
15:51:19  <V453000> infrastructure_grid.png does have them
15:52:25  <Wolf01> time to do some hard hand work... excavating a long tunnel in minecraft
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15:53:32  <planetmaker> that's a copy straight from opengfx... from before the time I re-arranged sprites. Though I have a separate file with them in ogfx-landscape
15:54:26  <V453000> hm
15:54:49  <planetmaker> which you obviously used as templates as I now realize :-)
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15:55:52  <V453000> I used roadtunnel.png as template yes :)
15:56:51  <FLHerne> Wolf01: Get a tunnel bore :P
15:58:15  <V453000> uhmmm
15:59:17  <V453000> ok replaced road tunnels in infrastructure_grid.png but that does not seem to change them
15:59:24  <V453000> and yes I have nogrid off :)
16:01:04  <Wolf01> I was thinking about using buildcraft, but I don't like when heavy technology is mixed with a medieval-ish world, at least, have you ever see anyone building a nuclear reactor or a laser with a wooden workbench and his bare hands?
16:01:23  <V453000> oh
16:01:34  <V453000> does the ogfx landscape do anything at all if I turn nogrid off? :D
16:02:02  <V453000> hm
16:02:06  <V453000> wtf
16:02:18  <planetmaker> not much. It allows arctic climat then
16:02:40  <V453000> ogfx-landscape does not define tunnels at all?
16:03:44  <V453000>
16:03:56  <planetmaker> yes, might be. It's not really finished yet. And need to find out how much I got :D
16:04:15  <planetmaker> there are rough edges... tunnels might be one
16:04:23  <V453000> owell :)
16:04:38  <V453000> now you have new tunnels to implement :P
16:04:46  <planetmaker> hm, the screenshot you just gave looks... ugly
16:04:57  <planetmaker> I should do something about it :-)
16:05:02  <V453000> yes, ttd tunnel in ogfx landscape when I used ttd base set
16:05:26  <planetmaker> indeed. <3
16:05:42  <planetmaker> <3 @ new tunnels
16:05:55  <V453000> :)
16:06:09  <V453000> well they are definitely some progress in compare to the old ones :P
16:06:26  *** valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
16:07:44  <planetmaker> hm, I *think* one of the reasons was: normal ground tiles contain the grid. Thus the gridded tunnels also look fugly in the non-grid version
16:08:19  <V453000> I guess :)
16:08:38  <V453000> either way I included tunnel-only sprites in the png
16:08:42  <V453000> so they can be easily adapted
16:08:46  <planetmaker> the tile borders need be differently shaded for the non-grid versions. But... with the white replacement for the ground you provided... that can possibly be scripted
16:08:51  <planetmaker> yeah
16:08:56  <V453000> yep
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16:21:03  <planetmaker> hm, yeah... road tunnels don't even have a sprite template yet. anywhere. or so it seems
16:21:41  <Eddi|zuHause> ups, i just mistyped -j12 as -j23...
16:21:46  <planetmaker> :-)
16:21:53  <Eddi|zuHause> it's going to explode now!!!
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16:26:08  <Eddi|zuHause> it's always funny... the lightbulbs bought at the same time always die within two weeks from each other
16:28:33  <frosch123> yeah, my last bulb also died 2 days after the second to last one
16:28:37  <frosch123> ... except ...
16:28:44  <frosch123> i used them in the same lamp :p
16:28:59  <frosch123> and i used the last one to replace the second to last one
16:29:08  <Eddi|zuHause> haha :p
16:29:51  <Eddi|zuHause> there are 4 (halogen) lightbulbs in my lamp, and 3 of them are now broken
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16:44:26  <LordAro> evenings
16:45:18  <planetmaker> oh... V453000 ... something to mind: roads differ among climates. Thus desert roads and toyland roads in your png are not appropriate
16:45:30  <planetmaker> just noticed :-)
16:48:46  <V453000> o
16:49:06  <V453000> will do
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16:50:06  <planetmaker> I didn't check toyland yet... but iirc it has the same roads as desert
16:50:26  <planetmaker> at least not the temperate road :-)
16:50:39  <xata> Hello. how do i make two trains stop on same one track station? i mean one in the end of staion, other in start of station
16:51:32  <planetmaker> you can't
16:51:44  <planetmaker> only subsequently
16:51:48  <xata> planetmaker: then why trains have this option?
16:52:41  <LordAro> xata: thats just the positioning of the train in the station, it's just asthetics rather than anything else
16:52:42  <planetmaker> no need to drive through the station when you leave in the same direction you came from
16:52:56  <xata> i see. only ignoring the signals
16:53:00  <planetmaker> it's mostly cosmetics though as LordAro says
16:53:04  <V453000> no toyland road is unique
16:53:05  <xata> ok. thanks
16:53:09  <V453000> it has something wtf in the middle
16:53:15  <planetmaker> :-)
16:53:17  <planetmaker> thought so
16:53:26  <V453000> will fix
16:57:27  <planetmaker> as test version
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17:00:50  <V453000>
17:01:01  <planetmaker> ah, V453000 all tropical roads, not only desert...
17:01:04  <V453000> with them roads
17:01:16  <V453000> I know dont worry :)
17:01:17  <planetmaker> ßo/
17:01:40  <V453000> they are cloned from the original sprites
17:02:53  <planetmaker> bah... Roads also need a rework, the tropical ones
17:02:58  <planetmaker> the shading sucks...
17:03:05  <planetmaker> from slope vs. level
17:03:27  <V453000> nice :)
17:04:21  <planetmaker>
17:04:23  <V453000> almost everything could use rework :)
17:04:33  <V453000> lol
17:05:15  <V453000> just brighten by 1 level
17:05:39  *** TheMask96 [] has joined #openttd
17:05:42  <planetmaker> well. I certainly can be convinced in parts. And slowly probably in large parts to rework stuff :-)
17:06:31  <planetmaker> please be invited to be that person to push it that direction :D
17:06:56  <V453000> will see, the snow will probably not remain the same way as it is for long
17:07:02  <planetmaker> what graphics programme do you use actually?
17:07:23  <V453000> photoshop what else :P
17:07:51  <planetmaker> if you use photoshop... I also accept the psd files... afaik gimp allows to read and script-extract layers from them, too
17:08:14  <V453000> I dont draw in layers 99% of the time
17:08:31  <planetmaker> which especially and in particular with landscape files and the infrastructure placed on them is *imensly* advantegous
17:08:41  <V453000> I can imagine that
17:08:41  <planetmaker> as all infrastructure tiles are then updated, if the landscape changes
17:08:48  <V453000> ye
17:08:52  <planetmaker> without pushing one additional pixel :-)
17:09:10  <V453000> I will definitely do that
17:09:26  <V453000> for trains you usually do not need layers really :)
17:09:33  <planetmaker> if you plan to do so... get gimp. And import the single layers in psd or so
17:09:38  <planetmaker> it's all there then
17:09:48  <planetmaker> indeed, for vehicles it makes little sense
17:09:59  <V453000> I installed gimp today when you linked me to the xcf :D
17:10:02  <planetmaker> except maybe for cargo
17:10:21  <planetmaker> flatbed wagon with cargo overlay. Easier then to modify the vehicle, too
17:10:29  <V453000> well yes ... but I usually store the cargo in separate sprites
17:10:41  <planetmaker> yes. Exactly. That's what layers are for :D
17:10:45  <V453000> and in separate sprites I store clean flatbed
17:10:57  <planetmaker> but... openttd can't combine sprites for vehicles?
17:10:59  <V453000> I know, but it is a lot more comfortable to draw without them for me :)
17:11:03  <planetmaker> thus you need to combine it eventually
17:11:09  <V453000> I mean in the same image
17:11:16  <V453000> clean sprite, cargo sprite, combined sprite
17:11:24  <V453000> will find an example
17:12:48  <V453000>
17:13:04  <V453000> works for me :)
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17:16:54  <V453000> good example of flatbeds
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17:18:04  <planetmaker> hm, maybe easier. Dunno. I'd try an approach of wagon. cargo sprite layers. wagon forground part. But... :-)
17:18:21  <planetmaker> anyway. ogfx-landscape.tar updated with new sprites
17:18:37  <V453000> yes, that system is great but I hate to have to search which layer am I working in
17:18:44  <V453000> :)
17:18:59  <planetmaker> yes-ish. I know what you mean
17:19:18  <planetmaker> happens to me time and again to edit the wrong layer
17:19:58  <V453000> idk, I just got used to the non-layers when drawing trains, it works very well but probably takes some getting used to
17:20:12  <V453000> i definitely see the effectiveness of layered files though, and will use them for landscape thingz
17:20:23  <V453000> or infrastructure, and stuff
17:21:10  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- one of those "model or real" moments
17:21:24  <planetmaker> tilt-shift image
17:21:29  <planetmaker> quite clear :-)
17:21:33  <V453000> hmm ... the visible "wall" of the tunnel looks like inside of the road
17:22:13  <planetmaker> unless it's a photoshopped image. dunno
17:22:31  <V453000>
17:22:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think it's really "tilt-shift", it's more like drawn along with the train, so the engine is sharp, and the background is not
17:23:50  <Eddi|zuHause> it says photographed in 1985 (150 years railway jubilee)
17:24:22  <V453000> I am assuming this glitch is the reason why the american roads tried to used wider tunnels
17:25:06  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: i think this glitch is why the original tunnels are not centered
17:25:27  <Eddi|zuHause> (which makes them look odd with 0-length-tunnels)
17:29:35  <V453000> true
17:29:40  <V453000> good point
17:31:12  <planetmaker> hm, screw it. I guess OpenGFX will feature the new tunnels as of tomorrow :D
17:31:37  <V453000> :)
17:32:16  <V453000> wtflol The Elder Scrolls Town Names
17:32:51  <V453000> well where there could be Duke NUT'em train, I guess I should be silent
17:39:56  <planetmaker> hm, that you used the exact same template makes it nicely easy to replace tunnels, V453000 :-)
17:40:23  <planetmaker> most work is changing credits :D
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17:41:17  <planetmaker> V453000, you want your real name in the credits?
17:41:23  <planetmaker> or nickname? Or both?
17:42:32  * Wolf01 is trying to go out for dinner
17:42:42  <planetmaker> bon chance ;-)
17:45:31  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25215 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-05-01 17:45:23 UTC)
17:45:32  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:33  <DorpsGek> galician - 185 changes by Michi
17:45:34  <DorpsGek> gaelic - 1 changes by GunChleoc
17:45:35  <DorpsGek> vietnamese - 4 changes by nglekhoi
17:46:06  *** Alberth [] has joined #openttd
17:46:09  *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
17:46:14  <Wolf01> ok, nothing to do, my head+stomach don't want to collaborate
17:46:18  <Wolf01> hello Alberth
17:46:44  <Alberth> moin Wolf01
17:46:57  <Alberth> having an internal fight? :(
17:47:16  <V453000> dno, what is normal?
17:47:21  <Wolf01> nah, just ate rotten flesh on minecraft
17:47:27  <V453000> as you want really, I dont mind how am I mentioned
17:47:31  <V453000> like others
17:47:47  <V453000> if you want put here full name, if not, just nickname ... not really important to me
17:48:40  <LordAro> Wolf01: i'm currently sitting at my xp farm, waiting for blazes to build up
17:49:01  <planetmaker> most are mentioned by both in opengfx
17:49:04  <LordAro> it's quite boring
17:50:02  <Wolf01> I know, I always do it when I find a skeleton spawner just to pile up arrows and bones
17:50:24  <LordAro> i always forget where spawners are
17:51:12  <LordAro> but generally, yes, i make xp farms for them, especially if they're skel spawners
17:52:03  <Alberth> can you play Openttd  in minecraft?
17:52:31  <Wolf01> I usually try to build complex track layouts, switches and stuff
17:52:58  <LordAro> i made a fairly complex 3-way junction once
17:53:20  <LordAro> over a 18 months ago now, back in the heady days of Beta1.7
17:54:20  <LordAro> and you could concevibly (or whatever the spelling is) have a currency, using gold or iron or something
17:54:36  <Wolf01> just use emeralds
17:54:47  <LordAro> i never have enough of them
17:54:48  <Alberth> gems!
17:54:55  <Alberth> Brot likes them too
17:55:12  <LordAro> in fact, i don't think i have any in my main singleplayer world
17:55:34  <Wolf01> build a train station near the emerald mine... herr.. I bet I confuset 2 games
17:55:39  <LordAro> it predates emeralds, and i don't explore enough to find any
17:55:47  <Wolf01> s/t/d
17:56:24  <Alberth> it happens when you play games in a game, I guess :)
17:56:36  <planetmaker> heya Alberth
17:56:55  <Alberth> hoye planetmaker
17:58:03  <Wolf01> I usually find a village, then I sell stuff to villagers until they get mad and won't accept anything, at that point I'll have at least one hundred of emeralds
17:58:23  <LordAro> never found a village on my main world either :L
17:58:34  <Alberth> fund one :p
17:58:47  <LordAro> ..well, actually, there was half a house, and a road - world generation glitch :L
17:58:54  <LordAro> did get 2 villagers though :)
17:59:02  <LordAro> safely stored them in a cobblestone box
17:59:36  <Wolf01> today I "finished" my long tunnel, when I put my head out to see where I was, I spotted a village at about 30 cubes of distance
17:59:39  <LordAro> Alberth: that's actually possible :)
17:59:49  <LordAro> lucky
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18:00:15  <LordAro> i made a huge long tunnel to my conquered stronghold
18:00:18  <LordAro> that was fun
18:00:43  <Alberth> :)
18:00:50  <Wolf01> and when I'll feel better, I'll start to build a railway linking my house basement with that village
18:01:26  <LordAro> Alberth: much harder than in OTTD, but still possible - have to breed the villagers yourself
18:01:31  <LordAro> that sounds wrong :L
18:03:14  * LordAro -> dinner
18:03:33  <Alberth> enjoy :)
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18:10:49  <MNIM> well, you don't breed villagers like you breed cows.
18:11:06  <MNIM> you just build houses (with doors) for 'em.
18:11:21  <planetmaker> and you feed them (by giving them work)
18:11:24  <planetmaker> not much difference :D
18:11:32  <MNIM> Or, as I like to do, 'breed-houses'
18:11:41  <MNIM> basically, lots of doors with a roof over it :P
18:11:43  <Alberth> sounds like the sims :)
18:11:49  <Wolf01> one day you'll need diamond rings to breed villagers
18:12:05  <MNIM> I sure hope not
18:12:17  <MNIM> my diamond mining skills aren't too great :P
18:13:48  <Wolf01> mine neither, I only found 2 diamonds in this world and one fell in the lava
18:14:57  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i don't get this. how can a setting be 0 at that point when i specified min = 1 and def = 1 in settings.ini?
18:15:59  <Eddi|zuHause> or does that not work with "global" settings?
18:17:08  <frosch123> the min/max is only applied if the setting is actually assigned
18:17:15  <frosch123> if it is 0, it is probably unassigned
18:18:01  <Eddi|zuHause> this is on startup
18:18:07  <Eddi|zuHause> before loading the intro game
18:18:42  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll try converting it to a "normal" setting instead of "global"
18:19:03  <frosch123> only the misc settings are loaded before intro game
18:19:10  <frosch123> the other settings are loaded after grf scan
18:19:16  <frosch123> i.e. also after intro game
18:21:28  <Wolf01> with the right tools on OTTD I could be the same
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18:23:28  <Eddi|zuHause> so then how do i make sure that all settings are set to default values at that stage?
18:24:02  <frosch123> if you add settings you might have to initialise them during AfterLoad
18:24:16  <frosch123> the default settings value is troublesome for that anyway
18:24:41  <frosch123> the default value is the default value for new games (and is sometimes changed, if different settings are considered more useful as default)
18:24:46  <Eddi|zuHause> why?
18:24:48  <frosch123> but that should not happen for savegames
18:25:04  <frosch123> so, the default value is not exactly useful for stuff which affects savegames
18:25:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't care about savegames
18:25:45  <Eddi|zuHause> this is the initial empty map before the intro game is loaded. the value must be valid at this point
18:25:59  <frosch123> ah, then you have to put it in the misc setting
18:26:05  <frosch123> but what weird setting did you add?
18:26:08  <frosch123> which is needed at mapgen?
18:26:23  <Eddi|zuHause> this is a daylength patch which i updated
18:26:54  <Eddi|zuHause> which fails at this assert because daylength is set to 0, which is invalid
18:27:00  <frosch123> LoadFromConfig has a minimal parameter
18:27:13  <frosch123> make sure your setting is loaded or at least initialised for minmal = true
18:27:30  <Eddi|zuHause> er what?
18:28:03  <frosch123> s/minimal/"minimal"/
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18:28:29  <Eddi|zuHause> again, the value in the config is irrelevant. just the default value should be sufficient
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18:29:28  <frosch123> i told you, the default is only applied when the setting is actually processed
18:29:54  <frosch123> else it's just uninitialised
18:30:00  <frosch123> which for global vars usually means zero
18:30:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i think that behaviour is weird
18:31:02  <frosch123> startup is complicated :)
18:31:08  <frosch123> it's full of chickens and eggs
18:31:23  <Wolf01> and creepers
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18:34:16  <LordAro> ^^
18:42:32  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, this is totally awkward, but i just put "if (_date_daylength_factor == 0) _date_daylength_factor = 1;" into "MakeNewgameSettingsLive()" now
18:44:03  <Wolf01> my old patch should have cared for that, I just don't remember
18:44:32  <Eddi|zuHause> nothing like this was in SpComb's patch
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18:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm missing at least one further zoom out level :/
18:48:56  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it was probably before bootstrap gui
18:49:26  <frosch123> only since we load the introgame before grfscan there is this minimal / complete settings thingie
18:49:49  <peter1139> hmm
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18:57:43  <Eddi|zuHause> uh, cargodist kicks in, and immediately 90% of the links are overloaded :p
19:01:07  <planetmaker> :-)
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21:12:40  <frosch123> night
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21:13:00  * NGC3982 has fallen in to old tracks of laserdance.
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22:05:14  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, another trap i apparently stepped into: something is wrong with the display of the settings in the gui
22:05:27  <Eddi|zuHause> "daylength factor: <undefined text>"
22:05:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and even a crash when i tried to view the town cargo setting
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22:07:22  <Wolf01> and you didn't save?
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22:12:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't play, i'm still testing
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22:20:01  <Wolf01> actually my last approach with daylength works really well, everything is scaled to fit the new daylength and  it doesn't break anything, in fact you could even play with different daylengths in multiplayer, the only problem is the introduction date of vehicles :P
22:21:18  <Wolf01> too bad it's only on the paper (with an old half featured patch) because there is really too much to change
22:24:53  <planetmaker> would be nice to see that worked out. kinda
22:25:01  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i got it to work with the daylength factor
22:25:08  <Eddi|zuHause> but the town cargo factor is weird
22:25:11  <Eddi|zuHause> it shows no value
22:25:19  <planetmaker> Wolf01, possibly using an internal game date and a display game date?
22:25:37  <Wolf01> yeah, that one
22:25:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i turned the {STRING} into {STRING2} and added "strval   = STR_JUST_INT" to the setting
22:26:48  <Wolf01> search for "not another daylength patch" or something alike
22:28:30  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, a typo
22:29:23  <Eddi|zuHause> STRING12 is unlikely to work :p
22:31:27  <Eddi|zuHause> seems to be correct now
22:32:02  <Eddi|zuHause> although a x2, x1/2 etc. variant should be more appropriate for the town cargo factor
22:33:10  <Eddi|zuHause> since it's actually an exponent
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22:43:22  <Eddi|zuHause> is there a git variant of hg rollback?
22:43:53  <DDR> Yeah.
22:43:58  <DDR> No clue what it is, though. :P
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22:45:59  <planetmaker> use hggit. Then the question becomes obsolete, Eddi|zuHause ;-)
22:47:04  <Eddi|zuHause> and how can git merge tell me merge conflicts on files i did not touch locally?
22:50:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Auto-merging src/linkgraph/linkgraphjob.cpp
22:50:49  <Eddi|zuHause> CONFLICT (add/add): Merge conflict in src/linkgraph/linkgraphjob.cpp
22:55:53  <Eddi|zuHause> 3 out of 4 "conflicts" are totally bogus
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23:00:03  <DDR> Never seen that one before.
23:00:49  <glx> line endings ?
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23:02:58  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i once had a patch that set trains to middle stop for loading old savegames... where did that go?
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23:48:18  <Wolf01> 'night all
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