Log for #openttd on 6th May 2013:
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00:08:08  <maravilla> Hey
00:08:19  <Supercheese> salve
00:09:50  <maravilla> OpenTTD rules!
00:10:11  <Supercheese> it does indeed
00:11:31  <maravilla> I don't play it for the efficiency or the whole railroad engineering, I just like the competition
00:12:14  <maravilla> sadly that's a game killer, because it gets easy to be #1 in little time in single player
00:12:57  <Supercheese> people often use various newgrfs to make things harder, or play multiplayer for interpersonal competetion
00:13:00  <maravilla> or to amass a fortune that just feeds in itself
00:13:31  <Supercheese> of course, making things harder for you also makes things harder for the AI
00:13:35  <Supercheese> if you use AIs
00:13:44  <maravilla> Oh yeah, multiplayer is a great feature. It's long too D:
00:14:40  <maravilla> Yeah some AIs that very self sustainable
00:16:05  <maravilla> -that
00:18:01  <maravilla> sometimes I wish the game had more of the bad-roots-of-capitalism side of things
00:18:25  <maravilla> like Pizza Tycoon did. Ever played that game?
00:18:43  <Supercheese> Hah, I never played it but I saw it a lot back in the day
00:19:20  <Supercheese> OTTD goal scripts are nice I hear
00:19:24  <Supercheese> I really should try one some time
00:20:29  <maravilla> goal scripts?
00:20:53  <Supercheese> yeah, like "transport certain amounts of stuff in certain timeframes"
00:21:02  <Supercheese> or "feed towns with cargo so they can grow"
00:21:10  <Supercheese> oversimplified descriptions but still
00:21:14  <maravilla> Aha
00:21:31  <Supercheese>
00:21:35  <Supercheese> for example that
00:21:35  <maravilla> Like more complex subsidies?
00:21:58  <Supercheese> without any rewards other than "you win", essentially yeah
00:23:25  <Supercheese> Also
00:24:30  <maravilla> Hmm, cool
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00:38:58  <maravilla> Has anyone ever experimented with a politics system for OpenTTD? Having borders (therefore countries), states (as in governments of those countries), taxes, multiple economies, etc. Kinda like in Railroad Tycoon
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01:39:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i once had a somewhat working prototype of making borders with a voronoi partition of the cities
01:40:27  <Eddi|zuHause> the idea was that you have (depending on map size/amount of cities) several administrative layers (country, province, ...) which each have their own local economy
01:40:50  <Eddi|zuHause> but i didn't get that far
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09:10:58  <juzza1> someone wanna give me some feedback? as bluntly as possible please
09:11:09  <juzza1> is supposed to look like|Taimn|
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12:49:09  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25220 trunk/src/water_cmd.cpp (2013-05-06 12:49:04 UTC)
12:49:10  <DorpsGek> -Change [FS#Eddi]: Consider map border as water wrt. river/canal continuation.
12:49:38  <planetmaker> oh :-)
12:50:04  <planetmaker> water patches indeed suit you well, frosch123 ;-)
12:50:13  <frosch123> :p
12:50:15  <planetmaker> especially if it means more water ;-)
12:54:51  <planetmaker> still needs testing. I don't yet have sprites to check properly
12:55:01  <frosch123> compile farm burped
12:55:07  <frosch123> i bet because of the translation
12:55:13  <planetmaker> gaelic is broken
12:55:31  <frosch123> yeah, but wt3 has already modifications, so i do not dare to fix it via svn :)
12:55:32  <planetmaker> trunk/src/lang/gaelic.txt:5074: FATAL: Command 'DATE_TINY' can't have a case
12:55:41  <planetmaker> oh, ok
12:57:04  <planetmaker> hm, the linked patch definitely misses a return ;-)
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13:05:09  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25221 /trunk/src (newgrf_station.cpp station_map.h) (2013-05-06 13:05:04 UTC)
13:05:10  <DorpsGek> -Fix: IsCompatibleTrainStationTile() is not a symmetric function. Clarify the parameters and fix the cases were they were swapped.
13:07:14  <planetmaker> fs#5542?
13:07:30  <frosch123> not quite
13:07:53  <frosch123> rather something i noted to look at, but likely related :p
13:08:18  <frosch123> your TILE_ADDXY order seems to match the one of ttdp :)
13:08:37  <planetmaker> it matches your quote from yesterday :-P
13:09:01  <frosch123> well, but if you translate in one direction, and then back, you might compare begin and end :)
13:09:38  <frosch123>
13:11:03  <planetmaker> not sure I get what you try to tell me :-)
13:11:26  <frosch123> there are a number of -1 and +1 in the ttdp source and in your diff :)
13:11:49  <planetmaker> yes. Though the numbers in my patch come from OpenTTD source really
13:12:01  <frosch123> i translated them to directions, and you translated the directions back to -1/+1 :)
13:12:14  <planetmaker> yes, that I did :-)
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13:23:55  <planetmaker> maybe nice to add the documentation as found there... (updated diff)
13:25:00  <frosch123> not sure about that :p
13:25:28  <frosch123> i have no idea how to read that comment without reading the source
13:25:36  <frosch123> it has weird numbering and a weird orientation
13:25:52  <planetmaker> yes... orientation will need adoption. As will numbering
13:26:30  <frosch123> not sure how useful the line number is, you could name the function "getdikemap"
13:26:36  <frosch123> unless you consider ttdp source stable :p
13:26:48  <planetmaker> I do, yes
13:27:49  <planetmaker> but I'll quote a specific version. That's feasible
13:28:16  <planetmaker>
13:29:04  <planetmaker> Though with up = North, and proper bit numbering (starting at 0), it has no similarity anymore :-P
13:29:24  <frosch123> <- feels easiest to me
13:30:03  <planetmaker> good suggestion. I'll use it
13:32:28  <frosch123> <- or if you want something more fancy :p
13:32:36  <__ln___>
13:32:36  <frosch123> but does not necessarily improve readability :p
13:32:45  <planetmaker> indeed not. Diff updated
13:32:53  <planetmaker> I'll try to test it tonight by creating a test grf
13:37:23  <Eddi|zuHause> that does not look healthy at all
13:40:03  <planetmaker> with respect to map borders?
13:40:07  <planetmaker> possibly
13:40:36  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i meant __ln___'s picture
13:43:57  <planetmaker> ah. Yes. Operation outside the specs, I assume ;-)
13:46:04  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25222 trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp (2013-05-06 13:45:58 UTC)
13:46:05  <DorpsGek> -Change: Unify the behaviour of Vehicle::tick_counter between RV and trains by incrementing it also for articulated RV parts.
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13:59:17  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25223 trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp (2013-05-06 13:59:11 UTC)
13:59:18  <DorpsGek> -Change: [NewGRF] Unify the behaviour of Aircraft::tick_counter with other vehicle types and increment it once per tick. (instead of twice like before, or six times like in r0)
13:59:32  <planetmaker> lol
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14:04:26  <Eddi|zuHause> but you break aircraft animation!! :p
14:04:49  <planetmaker> occasionally one must be evil. Or the fame will decay
14:04:56  <frosch123> nope
14:05:11  <frosch123> aircraft smoke is broken as much as before
14:05:33  <frosch123> and vehicle sound effects are as well, but not they are a bit more sane :)
14:07:05  <planetmaker> :-)
14:07:23  <oskari892> Eddi|zuhause: Maybe someone could implement breaking train when level crossing accident happens in OpenTTD? :P
14:07:51  <planetmaker> oskari892, that'll introduce griefing the other way around, too ;-)
14:08:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely rember a patch like this
14:08:12  <planetmaker> (for really little benefit, imho)
14:08:14  <oskari892> Result of that __ln___:ns news seems that of OpenTTD's train crash, locomotive gone grey
14:08:32  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25224 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2013-05-06 14:08:27 UTC)
14:08:33  <DorpsGek> -Fix [part of FS#5534]: cur_speed is only valid for the front engine, so make other engines in the consist use the speed of the front.
14:09:01  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: ttdp allowed trains to break down in such cases
14:09:11  <frosch123> rv crashes, trains breaks down
14:09:26  <oskari892> :)
14:09:38  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and around the time of MiniIN it was discussed to include that as well
14:10:27  <oskari892> The fireball doesn't burn train in current behaviour :P
14:12:33  <frosch123> are vehicles supposed to play the "idle" sound, when they are stopped?
14:12:54  <oskari892> Yes
14:13:04  <frosch123> also when stopped in depot?
14:13:13  <planetmaker> uh.. hm...
14:13:22  <frosch123> you build 10 new engines, and the depot is making noise like hell? :p
14:13:24  <planetmaker> I'd think not
14:13:38  <planetmaker> depots are houses. Sound-proof houses ;-)
14:13:44  <frosch123> oskari892: i mean stopped as in red flag, not stopped as in waiting
14:14:14  <oskari892> I think yes, unless in a depot
14:14:44  <oskari892> Finnish Trainset uses code to disable effect 08 in a depot
14:15:23  <oskari892> Otherwise, it's effect 08 always, when consist is standing still
14:15:55  <oskari892> Regardless of stopped by flag, PBS or block signal
14:16:04  <oskari892> Or waiting for load
14:16:22  <planetmaker> for that there's reason to play different sounds
14:16:55  <frosch123> ttdp says, no sound 7 and 8 when stopped or inside tunnel
14:17:12  <frosch123> err, confusing numbers :s
14:17:25  <oskari892> Yes they are
14:17:32  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: "idle" should be "running at speed 0", so "stopped" should not make any sound
14:17:48  <oskari892> It should be effect 08 on that case
14:17:57  <frosch123> the montion effect 4 is not called inside tunnels
14:18:02  <frosch123> the others are :s
14:18:04  <frosch123> how weird
14:18:14  <frosch123> let's ignore ttdp in that case :)
14:18:20  <oskari892> Yes :P
14:18:36  <frosch123> so, what to do in ottd, and what to blame no the grf?
14:18:53  <planetmaker> inside tunnels: no sound
14:19:00  <planetmaker> inside depot: no sound
14:19:09  <oskari892> Yep
14:19:21  <frosch123> we have special cases: crashed, stopped in depot, stopped with red flag, braking, running at speed 0, running at speed > 0
14:19:33  <oskari892> Crashed: no sound at all
14:20:02  <planetmaker> it should remain allowed to play sound
14:20:23  <planetmaker> frosch123, I'm missing "loading / unloading" as separate item
14:21:01  <oskari892> Loading/unloading should play together with 08
14:21:28  <oskari892> Stopped in a depot: no sound at all
14:21:31  <planetmaker> the sound numbers don#t tell me anything
14:21:53  <oskari892> see newgrfspecs
14:22:14  <oskari892> or thread:
14:22:25  <planetmaker> ty
14:22:30  <oskari892> Whoops, this
14:22:33  <planetmaker> right, those numbers
14:23:11  <oskari892> Stopped with red flag should return 08
14:23:51  <oskari892> Braking hasn't got any effect yet, current behaviour is 07
14:24:03  <oskari892> (should it be changed to 08?)
14:24:16  <frosch123> yeah, we considered that the other day :)
14:24:19  <frosch123> thus why i am asking
14:24:54  <oskari892> Running at speed 0 is easy case: 08, since it's basically stopped
14:25:18  <oskari892> Running at speed >0 is easy case too, 07
14:25:29  <planetmaker> why not 04?
14:25:50  <frosch123> 04 is independent from 07 an d08
14:25:50  <oskari892> Because then sound effects will break
14:26:18  <frosch123> the only thing to decide about 04 is to skip it inside tunnels
14:26:23  <frosch123> it does not happen in the other cases anyway
14:26:31  <planetmaker> ok
14:26:55  <frosch123> 07/08 is about tunnels/depots/redflag
14:27:12  <frosch123> well, only 08 actually :)
14:27:36  <frosch123> i think it should be silent when redflag
14:27:41  <frosch123> redflag is powered off
14:28:02  <oskari892> But then locomotives aren't idling
14:28:17  <frosch123> redflag != redsignal
14:28:19  <planetmaker> yes. But I feel also that red flag = power off
14:28:29  <planetmaker> signal stop or speed 0 w/o red flag = idle
14:29:11  <oskari892> But then locomotives could also have "power on"/"power off" sounds
14:29:30  <oskari892> I think red flag is 08, easiest way
14:30:00  <oskari892> It's current way and i'm happy with it
14:30:07  <planetmaker> why would a powered-off engine make sound?
14:30:17  <oskari892> Because of idling engine? :)
14:30:31  <planetmaker> or an engine parked in a train yard? It's after all NOT idling. It's standing. No power
14:30:52  <planetmaker> Idling is what you do in a station, at a signal etc.
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14:31:18  <planetmaker> or does your car idle all night while you sleep? I don't think so
14:31:24  <oskari892> Could that be a switch so one could decide him/herself?
14:31:35  <planetmaker> tmwftlb
14:31:47  <oskari892> Red flag sound behaviour: 08/no sound?
14:31:56  <planetmaker> oskari892, how often do you use the red flag?
14:32:12  <planetmaker> outside depots
14:32:16  <oskari892> To stop something from happening? :P
14:32:30  <planetmaker> yes. And how relevant is that wrt total trains?
14:32:48  <planetmaker> it's like 1 / 500 in numbers. And 15 minutes / 10 hours. Or so
14:33:08  <planetmaker> and it's power off. Thus illogical to call it 'idle'
14:34:02  <oskari892> Could it also have "powered up/powered down sounds" then, if power off=no sound? :)
14:34:12  <planetmaker> yes. red flag = powered down.
14:34:12  <oskari892> Such as locomotive engine starting
14:34:16  <planetmaker> that's the definition really
14:34:35  <planetmaker> and a rock makes no sound except in earth quakes ;-)
14:34:54  <planetmaker> it could have those sounds. But ... that's a feature :-P
14:35:48  <oskari892> :P
14:35:56  <oskari892> Braking could be 08?
14:36:00  <planetmaker> but please convince me: why do you want to treat idling at a signal the same as powered off in a train yard?
14:36:45  <planetmaker> and as I understand it, you can't re-define the meaning of the existing numbers really. Unless it's not used anywhere
14:36:53  <oskari892> Well, at least here some years ago, those locomotives were _idling_ and standing there
14:37:02  <planetmaker> which of course is frosch's question ;-)
14:37:31  <oskari892> (speaking of locomotives sitting on yard)
14:37:46  <oskari892> Putting off smoke :P
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14:38:10  <planetmaker> hmpf... focus with mouse over has sometimes disadvanteges :-P
14:38:40  <frosch123> everything has disadvantages :)
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14:38:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i have more problems when the window with the mouse in it does not have focus
14:39:03  <Eddi|zuHause> like after drag&drop happens a lot
14:39:11  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes, I have then more problems, too ;-)
14:40:39  <frosch123> <- that's what i have now
14:40:49  <frosch123> depot, tunnel, crashed: no sound no matter what
14:41:08  <frosch123> braking: effect 08  instead of 07
14:41:16  <frosch123> redflag: 08, up to the grf to not play it
14:41:26  <oskari892> Yes,
14:41:36  <oskari892> good behaviour that way :)
14:42:02  <planetmaker> I maintain the argument that sound while power off makes no sense :-)
14:42:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i agree with planetmaker
14:42:16  <oskari892> Planetmaker: Think about this case:
14:42:27  <oskari892> Train is stopped on line using red flag
14:43:07  <planetmaker> good. thought about it. I keep up my argument :-)
14:43:11  <oskari892> After you press green flag AND it has free way to go, it's straight jump to running sound
14:43:13  <Eddi|zuHause> people use "red flag" stopping for simulated railway museums and stuff
14:43:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it should not play sounds
14:43:45  <oskari892> Grf could disable it if wanted
14:43:53  <oskari892> Or enable it if wanted? :P
14:44:06  <oskari892> Could it be that way, everyone is happy?
14:44:22  <planetmaker> rather they should get the chance to play a powering-on or powering-off sound.
14:44:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see any use-case where stopped trains making sounds would be useful
14:44:36  <planetmaker> but I only use red flag i nthe way eddi describes
14:44:47  <planetmaker> thus it makes no sense to have sound for stopped available by default at all
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14:45:07  <oskari892> Stopped= red flag
14:45:15  <oskari892> Not the idle
14:45:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
14:45:26  <planetmaker> yes
14:45:54  <Eddi|zuHause> well, people use stopping to rebuild junctions and stuff as well :)
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14:46:21  <planetmaker> there it suffices to stop one train. And the queue of 100 trains waiting will create sufficient idle sounds ;-)
14:46:37  <oskari892> :P
14:47:12  <planetmaker> yes. think about it
14:47:46  <planetmaker> thus this case where a stopped train blocks the line, has virtually no sound impact due to jam
14:47:56  <planetmaker> while it's not sensible in all other use cases I can come up with
14:48:37  <oskari892> Usually there are single locomotives waiting for train, in "idle" state here
14:48:46  <oskari892> Not powered off
14:49:04  <Eddi|zuHause> but those are timetabled wait times, not "stopped"
14:49:33  <oskari892> Could it be best compromice to redflag = no sound, up to grf to enable it if wanted?
14:49:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
14:50:39  <planetmaker> oskari892, that really goes on a tangent and does not address the question
14:52:00  <oskari892> You could have a timetabled wait for "long time" and have a idle sound without stopped state?
14:52:37  <oskari892> I meant on order list
14:52:39  <planetmaker> you can timetable your wait for as long as you want...
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14:53:31  <Eddi|zuHause> max timetable time is 65535 ticks (around 2 game years)
14:53:48  <planetmaker> :-)
14:54:22  <oskari892> And you could have just one station on a orders list :P
14:54:37  <planetmaker> could? sometimes do.
14:54:57  <planetmaker> if you know how to play the path finder, it allows self-regulating networks
14:55:05  <planetmaker> with always the right amount of trains at a station
14:55:14  <planetmaker> and a nice amount of buffer trains
14:55:21  <planetmaker> in a depot
14:55:48  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: unless daylenth is in effect, then it might be like one day ;)
14:56:51  <Eddi|zuHause> at least one person wanted to timetable a longer wait time :p
14:57:22  <oskari892> But let's continue at the sfx discussion
14:57:48  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25225 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2013-05-06 14:57:42 UTC)
14:57:49  <DorpsGek> -Fix: [NewGRF] Play vehicle sound effect also for planes.
14:57:49  <oskari892> Waiting on any signal, regardless of signal type, should be effect 08
14:58:04  <planetmaker> every speed = 0 when not red flag ;-)
14:58:50  <Eddi|zuHause> oskari892: you haven't really paid attention?
14:59:31  <planetmaker> biab
14:59:55  <oskari892> Eddi|zuhause: i have :P
15:02:13  <oskari892> But forgot that it was already discussed.
15:02:22  <frosch123> well, i guess. playing a sound when stopped and not intentional is more annoying, than missing sound when stopped but desired
15:04:30  <oskari892> :(
15:04:39  <oskari892> I'll miss that :P
15:08:08  <oskari892> frosch123: And the second thing, "running sound to be called from all vehicles in the consist, including wagons, articulated parts and rear-heads."
15:08:12  <Eddi|zuHause> well you can patch your game :p
15:08:37  <frosch123> oskari892: i hope to get hold of pikka wrt. that first
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15:09:29  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25226 trunk/src/vehicle.cpp (2013-05-06 15:09:21 UTC)
15:09:29  <oskari892> Current behaviour (only for front) leads to not so nice situations
15:09:30  <DorpsGek> -Fix/Change [FS#5538]: [NewGRF] Revise when vehicle running sound effects 04, 07 and 08 are played.
15:09:31  <DorpsGek>   In depot or tunnel, or when crashed or stopped: No sound.
15:09:32  <DorpsGek>   Braking: Effect 08 instead of 07.
15:11:19  <planetmaker> back
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15:12:20  <oskari892> frosch123: PM him?
15:15:49  <alluke> @oskari892
15:16:29  <alluke> make all midcab locos able to turn around via ctrl-click
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15:16:50  <oskari892> They do?
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15:17:09  <oskari892> Or which don't?
15:17:11  <juzza1> i only have it on dv12 and pr1 atm
15:17:24  <alluke> yep
15:17:44  <alluke> i also thing the series refit is too much hassle
15:17:51  <oskari892> Nope
15:17:56  <alluke> series by random would be better imho
15:18:00  <oskari892> You can ignore it if wanted
15:18:02  <oskari892> :P
15:18:10  <alluke> you can buy three 1700-series and sell the rest
15:18:19  <alluke> 2700*
15:18:31  <juzza1> i dont see the problem when the default behaviour is like IRL
15:18:45  <oskari892> It will be implemented current way
15:19:30  <oskari892> If one doesn't want to use refits, (s)he doesn't
15:21:23  <alluke> why do sm1 and 2 have different windows?
15:21:46  <alluke> they are pretty similar irl
15:21:47  <alluke>
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15:23:29  <oskari892> alluke: ask purno, he did those :P
15:23:37  <alluke> doh
15:28:10  <oskari892> Seems that ones with smaller windows do have right amount of windows... which don't look good, since the 32px limit
15:28:36  <oskari892> Could be tricked to 40px, but not in near future
15:29:04  <Eddi|zuHause> *hÃŒstel*
15:29:06  <oskari892> That would also cover everything else too then...
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15:29:24  <alluke> i dont think the number of windows is important
15:29:30  <alluke> most of the vehicles are shortened anyway
15:29:56  <alluke> bigger ones look more correct
15:31:15  <alluke> costs loading speeds and lifes need to be done too
15:32:31  <oskari892> Yes, not so fast....
15:32:56  <oskari892> (Will be done at some point of time)
15:33:01  <alluke> sorry :P
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15:41:09  <juzza1> its good that you tell what you would like to be improved, but ofc we have to prioritize stuff
15:41:40  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25227 trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp (2013-05-06 15:41:34 UTC)
15:41:41  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5541]: Give bridges owned by noone (from bankrupt companies) to the first company which replaces the bridge. Everyone could have removed/rebuild the bridge anyway.
15:41:58  <juzza1> the flipping thing is an easy one, so should be available soon
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16:01:07  <frosch123> hmm, is railtype compatibility a symmetric relation?
16:01:39  <planetmaker> no
16:01:50  <planetmaker> elrail is compatible with rail. But not vice versa
16:01:59  <frosch123> compatible, not powered
16:02:29  <frosch123> both rail and elrail vehicle can drive both on rail and elrail
16:02:34  <planetmaker> uhm... then... possibly yes
16:02:44  <frosch123> so, that default case is symmetric
16:02:51  <frosch123> i just wonder whether we enforce that :)
16:03:12  <frosch123> otherwise we are completely screwed with station reservations and such
16:04:05  <frosch123> hmm, maybe the asymmetric poweredness already breaks it
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16:14:11  <frosch123> no, we do not enforce any symmetry :s
16:14:13  <oskari892> frosch123: You can put electric locomotive behind diesel
16:14:31  <oskari892> And it still runs on normal unelectrified track
16:15:02  <frosch123> that much i know :)
16:15:15  <oskari892> It's good behaviour
16:15:19  <frosch123> but if you build a rail and maglev station in a row
16:15:22  <planetmaker> frosch123, I guess we could enforce symmetry though w/o breaking anything
16:15:36  <frosch123> shall pbs reservations from the rail station extend over the maglev platform? :p
16:16:12  <frosch123> planetmaker: i guess unversal rail totally breaks it
16:16:31  <planetmaker> the symmetry?
16:16:34  <frosch123> yes
16:16:41  <planetmaker> uhm... why?
16:16:53  <planetmaker> it's compatible with everything. everything compatible with it.
16:16:54  <frosch123> if rail and universal rail are compatible, and universal rail and maglev are compatible
16:17:00  <frosch123> that implies that rail and maglev are compatible
16:17:18  <planetmaker> uh... how does that follow from those two and symmetry?
16:17:28  <frosch123> well, i also implied transitivity :)
16:17:41  <planetmaker> that's an additional requirement :-P
16:17:48  <oskari892> If isn't broken, don't fix it
16:17:58  <frosch123> oskari892: it's completely broken
16:18:06  <frosch123> we have two fs issues about it
16:18:58  <frosch123> well, i guess we have to put the vehicle itself into the equation then
16:19:15  <frosch123> universal rail vehicle would then reserve both the rail and maglev platform
16:19:26  <frosch123> while a maglev vehicle would not reserve the rail platform
16:20:05  <Eddi|zuHause> transitivity is totally broken with railtypes
16:20:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i've stumbled across this problem before
16:20:26  <frosch123> well, i guess the compatiblity is only meant as relation from engines to rails
16:20:28  <frosch123> not between rails
16:20:51  <Eddi|zuHause> when trying to resolve compatible railtypes when dragging one railtype over another
16:20:51  <planetmaker> that's how it was interpreted so far (and also how I understood it, yes)
16:20:52  <frosch123> every codepart whcih uses rail to rail relations is broken thus
16:21:40  <Eddi|zuHause> which there is no good heuristics for
16:22:21  <frosch123> ok, overbuilding one piece of track with another one is unsolvable
16:22:28  <Eddi|zuHause> if you consider e.g. a "3rd rail" and a "catenary" railtype, dragging one over the other will produce "wrong" results
16:32:17  <alluke> are roadtypes coming some day
16:34:21  <Eddi|zuHause> no. openttd is dying, you know.
16:34:30  <frosch123> hmm, or should pbs ignore railtypes completely?
16:34:37  <frosch123> and always reserve the whole platform :s
16:35:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably the safest
16:35:22  <planetmaker> hm... that's difficult
16:35:36  <planetmaker> deciding upon the engine is too troublesome, I guess
16:35:39  <Eddi|zuHause> as long as movement along the reservation will not blindly follow it, without checking railtype
16:35:40  <planetmaker> MUCH too troublesome
16:36:13  <frosch123> well, it would also affect station animation and such, but i guess noone cares Ö:p
16:36:31  <frosch123> let's see what block signals do
16:36:45  <frosch123> oh, wait, i know that from coop
16:36:50  <frosch123> they also ignore railtypes
16:37:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they always have been
16:37:11  <frosch123> well, then it's decided
16:37:12  <frosch123> same for pbs
16:37:15  <planetmaker> yes. So... safe assumption is to make it uniform
16:38:44  <alluke> dying?
16:40:17  <frosch123> alluke: we have more players than ever, but less devs than ever
16:40:37  <alluke> yeah
16:41:03  <peter1139> it's dead already
16:41:08  <alluke> drawing is dying skill since everythings 3d
16:41:11  <ToBeFree> both is a good sign, depending on the interpretation
16:41:38  <ToBeFree> it might become Thunderbird-like one day. ;-D
16:42:36  <frosch123> oh, how many devs does thunderbird have? :p
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16:44:48  <planetmaker> there he goes ;-)
16:45:38  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:47:17  <frosch123> omg...
16:47:29  <frosch123> can we somehow forbid mixing railtypes inside stations? :p
16:48:33  <oskari892> I think that's impossible, if different railtypes are paraller
16:48:37  <oskari892> On same station
16:49:27  <oskari892> And people might have saves which contain stations not properly converted to electric rail
16:49:54  <oskari892> 1 of rails left out of conversion or so...
16:52:36  <Eddi|zuHause> well original did that. they only allowed pure monorail or pure rail stations
16:52:38  <Eddi|zuHause> not mixed
16:53:34  <Eddi|zuHause> then someone came along and implemented joining new platforms to existing stations. and non-uniform stations. and more railtypes. and ...
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16:59:36  <Terkhen> hello
17:02:32  *** roadt [~roadt@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:21:38  <planetmaker> hi Terkhen
17:22:07  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, do you still remember the meaning of the four parameters to NML's var[0xXX, a, b, c] ?
17:22:17  <planetmaker> especially a, b and c?
17:23:19  <Eddi|zuHause> one is the shift, one is the mask, and the other one is the var60+ parameter
17:23:39  <planetmaker> ty
17:23:50  <Eddi|zuHause>
17:24:30  <planetmaker> there it is... :-) didn't exactly find it
17:24:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it's somewhat hidden, yes :)
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17:48:31  * frosch123 kicks wt3
17:49:02  <planetmaker> uh
17:50:20  <frosch123> well, 5 minutes is kind of long for 19 changed strings :p
17:50:40  <planetmaker> :-) yeah
17:51:46  <V453000> unicorns causing a blockade
17:58:07  <frosch123> yeah, as unicorn running into a wall is similar to putting your tongue on frozen metal
17:58:51  <planetmaker> outch
18:01:34  <frosch123> hmm, an even more inappropiate analogy comes to mind...
18:02:02  *** Zuu [] has joined #openttd
18:06:44  <frosch123> TrueBrain: so, why is wt3 whining?
18:06:57  *** Alberth [] has joined #openttd
18:06:58  *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
18:06:58  <frosch123> it should have committed gaelic
18:07:24  <Alberth> evenink
18:07:45  <TrueBrain> well, if you know better, I suggest you write a WT yourself ;)
18:07:53  *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@] has joined #openttd
18:08:16  <Wolf01> hello
18:08:44  <frosch123> TrueBrain: well, i hoped you know it well enough, so you can kick it where it hurts
18:08:48  <frosch123> or something like that :p
18:09:01  <TrueBrain> WT said you were too abusive towards him, so he stopped working ;)
18:09:35  <TrueBrain> it did write Gaelic, but it appears it didnt trigger any change in the output file
18:10:11  <TrueBrain> I wonder how the strings got marked as changed
18:10:12  <TrueBrain> as they are not
18:10:23  <frosch123> hmm, changed and reverted?
18:10:33  <frosch123> or only unmarked for validation?
18:10:47  <TrueBrain> neither should put them in this state
18:10:55  <TrueBrain> it happened, I believe, if cases changed in some odd way
18:11:00  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
18:11:09  <Alberth> and frosch123 and TrueBrain
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18:11:15  <frosch123> well, gaelic currently has a compile failure
18:11:26  <frosch123> due to invalid gender usage
18:11:32  <frosch123> but i don't think wt3 would notice that
18:11:56  <TrueBrain> hmm, I cannot see the files via the VCS
18:11:58  <TrueBrain> how annoying
18:12:40  <TrueBrain> ah, I am right; cases got removed
18:13:03  <TrueBrain> and reverted, it seems
18:13:07  <TrueBrain> so let me just reload the language
18:14:39  <frosch123> STR_JUST_DATE_TINY.dat                                          :{DATE_TINY.dat} <- dativ date :s
18:15:31  <TrueBrain> ah, I remembed, WT always barked if you fiddled with cases, and then ended up with the original statement
18:15:37  <TrueBrain> it has a hard time tracking cases
18:15:43  <TrueBrain> so it loses the ability to detect it didnt change
18:15:47  <TrueBrain> inr esult ... it always keeps pending :)
18:16:16  <frosch123> <- is it a good idea to commit that via svn then? :)
18:17:00  *** Superuser [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:17:04  <TrueBrain> reload is done, go for it
18:17:48  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25228 trunk/src/lang/gaelic.txt (2013-05-06 18:17:42 UTC)
18:17:49  <DorpsGek> -Fix: Dates have no cases.
18:18:04  <frosch123> TrueBrain: thanks a lot :)
18:18:57  <TrueBrain> no worries
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18:32:27  <George> Does var 61 work wile CB 1D?
18:34:27  <frosch123> likely
18:34:36  <planetmaker> code says 'yes'
18:34:58  <planetmaker> newgrf_engine.cpp:646 following
18:35:24  <George> But I can't make it work
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18:35:41  <George> It always returns 0 (outside the consist)
18:36:06  <George> the same code applied while defining graphics works correctly
18:36:36  <George> looks like the waggon is not attached yet while CB 1D
18:36:42  <frosch123> hmm, which vehicle was which again with cb1d ? :)
18:36:50  <frosch123> it was the other way around or something like that
18:37:01  <frosch123> George: yes, that is correct
18:37:06  <frosch123> the wagon is not attached during cb 1d
18:37:44  <George> How can I check the previous wagon props (F2) durinng CB 1D?
18:38:05  <frosch123> you have the engine
18:38:12  <frosch123> and the length of the consist of the engine
18:38:39  <frosch123> cb 1d is called for the consist of the engine up to the wagon before the to be attache done
18:38:43  <frosch123> and the attached wagon
18:39:14  <George> So instead checking -2 I should check +10?
18:39:17  <George> I'll try
18:39:29  <frosch123> well, and the other scope
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18:45:16  <George> Thank you! it works!
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18:49:31  <planetmaker> great :-)
18:50:03  <planetmaker> so we'll see a release of the xussr set soon? :-)
18:52:56  <alluke> why aint the xussr in bananas anymore
18:53:07  <alluke> i thought the policy was nothing will be deleted
18:53:19  <alluke> couldnt find the stolen and test trees either
18:53:36  <LordAro> nothing is deleted, but stuff may be 'hidden'
18:53:57  <alluke> lol why
18:54:04  <frosch123> xussr is on bananas just fine
18:54:07  <alluke> whats the difference
18:54:18  <frosch123> the trees were removed because the uploaded was banned
18:54:44  <LordAro> it's still there for people that specifically request it (i.e. server newgrf list (?)), but hidden in the main list
18:55:00  <frosch123> LordAro: xussr isn't even hidden
18:55:11  <LordAro> i didn't bother looking ;)
18:55:41  <alluke> then i must be blind or something
18:55:42  <planetmaker> maybe it has a min version requirement
18:55:43  <alluke>
18:56:38  <LordAro> alluke: which version are you running?
18:56:42  <frosch123> 1.2.3 is quite old
18:57:06  <alluke> the latest stable
18:57:16  <frosch123> that's 1.3.0
18:57:19  <LordAro> "latest" ?
18:57:22  <alluke> oops
18:57:29  <alluke> it used to be latest
18:57:37  <LordAro> ;)
18:57:46  <frosch123> 1.2.3 is over 6 months old
18:57:53  <alluke> only
18:57:57  <planetmaker> already
18:57:58  <frosch123> ancient, my mother used that
18:58:17  <alluke> why are there so many updates when i cant find any difference
18:58:29  <frosch123> see, you found one :p
18:58:33  <alluke> except the background game
18:58:44  <planetmaker> did you bother to look at the changelog?
18:58:44  <frosch123> xussr is not available for 1.2.3 apparently
18:58:57  <LordAro>
19:00:16  <alluke> ok there are some changes
19:00:50  <Rubidium> oh, so you rather have that we change the "theme" every release, so you think something changes when it's just eye cancer you want to turn off
19:01:23  <alluke> no, dont get it wrong
19:01:48  <alluke> but i havent seen any difference in gameplay
19:01:59  <alluke> all the changes work in the background
19:02:47  <planetmaker> except, for instance, the changes to newgrf support which you experienced ;-)
19:02:51  <Rubidium> many of them are minor improvements
19:03:05  <V453000> Randomised death counts! XD
19:03:06  <alluke> yeah that too
19:04:33  <alluke> ive always wondered one thing
19:04:38  <Rubidium> 42
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19:05:02  <alluke> why do mac apps have so much bigger filesize than their windows variants
19:05:07  *** lofejndif [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:05:13  <planetmaker> it's two in one
19:05:21  <frosch123> three?
19:05:23  <Rubidium> s/two/three/
19:05:27  <MNIM> Because lolmacs
19:05:29  <planetmaker> three even. indeed
19:05:34  <planetmaker> ppc, 32bit and 64bit
19:05:42  <Rubidium> planetmaker: wrong
19:05:47  <planetmaker> no need to decide and know which bit version you need
19:05:54  <planetmaker> nor which OS you have
19:06:06  <planetmaker> no ppc?
19:06:26  <alluke> you could ditch ppc support
19:06:31  <frosch123> alluke: in summary, there are versions for win9x, win 32bit, win 64bit. but the osx build has them in one
19:06:38  <alluke> yeah
19:06:38  <peter1139> ppc has 32 & 64 bit variants too
19:06:49  <alluke> sucks
19:06:52  <planetmaker> yes... but not in our universal binary, no?
19:07:14  <Rubidium> planetmaker: well... just checks, only 2 are left (ppc + i386)
19:07:17  <__ln___> alluke: why would anyone want to ditch ppc support?
19:07:25  <Rubidium> we used to have ppc, ppc 'G5' and i386
19:07:34  <planetmaker> good. That's what I recalled... so two binaries in one
19:07:48  <planetmaker> rather: I recalled two only
19:07:56  <planetmaker> I guess I ditched ppc :-P
19:08:07  <Rubidium> and the ppc 'G5' is just like the ppc, but with some special compilation flag for faster math stuff
19:08:09  <planetmaker> *guessed
19:08:28  <Rubidium> then you could also have x86_64 and ppc_64
19:08:52  <planetmaker> yes. But... no need really
19:09:36  <Rubidium> ah, the g5 one is called ppc970
19:09:50  <Rubidium> planetmaker: only ppc is enough, the rest can run via Rosetta
19:09:52  <frosch123> [21:07] <planetmaker> I guess I ditched ppc :-P <- i thought we ditched all of them :p
19:10:04  <planetmaker> Rubidium, that's wrong. Rosetta only works till OSX 10.6
19:10:17  <frosch123> that's two releases more than ottd :p
19:10:29  <planetmaker> ottd supports till 10.5
19:10:54  <planetmaker> there's some code for 10.6... but no VM for that in the CF
19:11:27  <Rubidium> planetmaker: so what, 10.6+ isn't supported anyway ;)
19:11:47  <planetmaker> yes... maybe I should get myself a new laptop :-P
19:11:58  <__ln___> ditching already-existing ppc support for the sake of ditching ppc support would be silly.
19:12:07  <planetmaker> it would
19:12:11  <alluke> whats the sprite_cache_size 64
19:12:12  <alluke> kb?
19:12:15  <alluke> mb?
19:12:19  <planetmaker> terrabyte
19:12:22  <frosch123> mega pixels
19:12:25  <alluke> harhar
19:12:40  <peter1139> unused
19:12:52  <frosch123> ah, true
19:13:11  <frosch123> it's called sprite_cache_size_px nowadays
19:13:54  <alluke> i have three caches in my .cfg :P
19:14:14  <frosch123> two of them are deprecated names of the same thing, but different units
19:14:31  <peter1139> damn it, i always forget my ilo login :(
19:14:33  <alluke> damn those pbi quarries
19:14:44  <alluke> i always think i lost my trucks when i hear a bang
19:14:58  <peter1139> and it has a login delay of about 30 seconds
19:15:07  <peter1139> retrying different combinations takes an age
19:17:32  <__ln___> afaik ppc macs are the only relatively easily available big endian platform to test openttd on.
19:17:45  <planetmaker> that's right
19:17:57  <planetmaker> whereas "easy" starts to become "difficult", too
19:18:29  <planetmaker> PPC is deprecated on OSX for 3 releases of the OS and 6 or 7 years out of production
19:18:40  <planetmaker> s/deprectated/removed/
19:19:39  <Rubidium> planetmaker: why remove support for something that works better than the stuff that came after it?
19:20:04  <planetmaker> what did I advocate to remove?
19:20:55  <Rubidium> you kinda implied it by telling it's "removed" from OSX
19:21:14  <planetmaker> OSX the operating system. Not OpenTTD
19:21:37  <planetmaker> 10.6 did not shop anymore with anything which runs on PPC. Nor 10.7 or 10.8
19:22:01  <alluke> shame that you cant get rosetta onto lion
19:22:04  <planetmaker> 10.6 still did ship with a ppc emulator - which needed separate install and was off by default
19:22:16  <alluke> i have some ppc apps i need
19:22:26  <alluke> cant update from 10.6
19:22:32  <alluke> unless i get second mac
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19:57:02  <planetmaker>
19:57:39  <frosch123> it lacks some grid lines :p
19:57:59  <planetmaker> :-D yeah... ogfx-landscape is my test grf
19:58:03  <frosch123> the north corner looks nice
19:58:09  <frosch123> the east one is a bit weird
19:58:10  <planetmaker> next feature there: rivers w/o gridlines
19:58:14  <planetmaker> seems I had it. But uncommitted
19:58:23  <planetmaker> the lonley one?
19:58:46  <LordAro> is this for ogfx landscape or (eventually) trunk?
19:58:47  <planetmaker> that single lake is by intention. It's a separate sprite
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19:58:49  <Terkhen> good night
19:58:54  <planetmaker> good night, Terkhen
19:58:54  <frosch123> i mean the east corner
19:59:12  <planetmaker> frosch123, there's only two new sprites currently which use the feature:
19:59:24  <planetmaker> the SW river end on the top. And the single lake
19:59:25  <frosch123> ah, ok :)
19:59:30  <planetmaker> the rest is as-is sprites
20:00:15  <planetmaker> LordAro, variable 0x82 for canals / rivers
20:00:57  <LordAro> ah, scary grf stuff :)
20:00:58  <planetmaker>
20:01:12  <planetmaker> not so scary really
20:01:29  <planetmaker> frosch123, and now we need that for rail :-P
20:01:35  <planetmaker> And eddi will be happy :-P
20:02:21  <planetmaker> but that ultimately would allow curved tracks when applied to rail
20:02:30  <frosch123> planetmaker: i wondered... are you using bits 4 to 7?
20:02:46  <frosch123> i wondered whether only bits 0 to 3 make sense :)
20:02:55  <planetmaker> the var returns all. In the grf I only test currently for values 0x00, 0x01 and other
20:03:06  <planetmaker> I wondered the same. But all make sense
20:03:18  <planetmaker> For rivers which flow upwards. or horizontal
20:03:21  <planetmaker> separate sprites for the
20:03:23  <planetmaker> them
20:03:25  <frosch123> well, they won't hurt :p
20:03:41  <frosch123> maybe you need them if you do even more smooth river corners
20:03:45  <frosch123> like you intent for rails :p
20:03:46  <planetmaker> yes
20:03:55  <planetmaker> no :-P
20:04:28  <planetmaker> but knowledge about the tiles on the edges allows for more smoothness, I think
20:04:44  <planetmaker> And I see a BIG explosion in sprites in river grfs... :S
20:04:52  <frosch123> they allow you to look "around" the corner
20:04:56  <planetmaker> yeah
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20:19:28  <planetmaker> frosch123, like the updated screenshot
20:20:46  <planetmaker> what will definitely look strange though is how boats drive on that river
20:20:55  <planetmaker> they'll zig-zag while the river is straight :-P
20:21:04  <MNIM> uhhh.
20:21:14  <MNIM> Last time I checked they don't zigzag
20:21:24  <planetmaker> hm... I need to check
20:21:40  <frosch123> s/straight/curvy/
20:22:18  <frosch123> planetmaker: ships move like trains
20:22:19  <frosch123> not like rv
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20:23:38  <planetmaker> hm... SE misses the "play now" button
20:27:17  <planetmaker> looks good even :-)
20:27:34  <planetmaker> so... no objection against patch?
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20:29:01  <frosch123> hmm, let me check whether the var is the same as in ttdp :p
20:29:34  <planetmaker> there it's for interal use only :-P
20:29:52  <planetmaker> I wonder actually... do we have other direction variables?
20:30:27  <frosch123> what?
20:31:11  <planetmaker> other newgrf variables where the adjacent tiles are bit-numbered like here (or unlike here)
20:31:39  <frosch123> planetmaker: i think the var is inverted
20:31:45  <frosch123> bits should be set if land
20:31:47  <frosch123> not if water
20:32:09  <planetmaker> that's an easy change :-)
20:34:34  <frosch123> planetmaker: GetRailContinuationInfo
20:34:50  <frosch123> station var 46
20:34:58  <frosch123> *45
20:36:26  <planetmaker> seems same order
20:36:40  <planetmaker> hm... that's two
20:36:55  <frosch123> it's completely different
20:37:00  <frosch123> but that's fine, it's stations :p
20:37:01  <planetmaker> yeah
20:37:04  <planetmaker> :-P
20:37:39  <frosch123> the first four match DiagDirection
20:37:41  <frosch123> so, that is fine
20:38:44  <planetmaker> patch updated with eight !
20:38:58  <frosch123> :)
20:39:07  <frosch123> only underaged people use so many ! :p
20:39:07  <planetmaker> alternatively I could invert the result... but I guess that's the same really
20:39:14  <planetmaker> :D
20:39:21  <frosch123> no, it's fine
20:39:33  <frosch123> the upper bits 8..31 should be cleared
20:40:12  <planetmaker> the variable is assigned as that value. So... does it need explicit clearing? It's uint32 anyway
20:40:43  <frosch123> you would have if you would invert the complete result
20:40:51  <planetmaker> ah, yes
20:41:08  <planetmaker> connectivity = !connectivity & 0x000000FF
20:41:21  <planetmaker> sure I would have forgotten that :-)
20:41:27  <frosch123> ~ instead of ! :)
20:41:38  <planetmaker> ups. yeah
20:41:54  <frosch123> but yeah, keep it as it is
20:41:57  <frosch123> easier to read
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20:48:24  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r25229 /trunk/src (3 files) (2013-05-06 20:48:18 UTC)
20:48:25  <DorpsGek> -Feature: [NewGRF] Variable 0x82 for canals and rivers (dike map)
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21:30:48  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:10:58  <frosch123> night
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22:26:53  <planetmaker> gute Nacht
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