Log for #openttd on 14th May 2013:
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00:56:38  <tilacog> .
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06:47:49  <__ln__> ave
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07:50:53  <planetmaker> juzza1, wrt the railtype thing: could you prepare a minimal grf (nml+lng) which compiles and shows the issue so that I can easily toy a bit?
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08:03:54  <juzza1> ok
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08:42:45  <juzza1> planetmaker:
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11:31:59  <George> How to get the last service day for a train?
11:32:34  <George> or days since last service?
11:33:53  <George> To be exact, I want to check, if the vehicle was serviced after specific date or not to choose a new livery
11:35:53  <juzza1> date_of_last_service
11:35:57  <juzza1>
11:38:05  <planetmaker> juzza1: thanks, I got the test grf's zip
11:39:39  <George> juzza1: thank you
11:41:42  <juzza1> np
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13:22:03  <Ristovski> Hmm, why have I been banned from tt-forums?
13:22:17  <Ristovski> The admin probably banned a ip range D:
13:24:20  <Ristovski> planetmaker: Happen to know who the admin of tt-forums is?
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13:37:40  <juzza1> you must've been very naughty
13:38:50  <alluke> juzza
13:39:03  <alluke> i thing the sm4 roofs need to be grey(er)
13:39:06  <alluke> think*
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13:39:12  <alluke> hold on
13:43:16  <alluke>
13:43:41  <alluke> compare to and
13:44:08  <Ristovski> juzza1: I never posted anything/commented
13:44:26  <Ristovski> so apart from reading posts, I haven't touched anything
13:46:04  <George> when a train comes into depo, only the first engine gets date_of_last_service  updated.
13:46:37  <NGC3982> It does?
13:46:56  <George> when a consist is split into vehicles, the other engines have date_of_last_service not updated
13:47:14  <George> equal to day of build
13:48:24  <George> is it a bug?
13:54:23  <juzza1> alluke: those are ancient sprites... agreed that they could use some improvements
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13:56:50  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
13:57:06  <Eddi|zuHause> so... now i have LED lights which say they last 15 years...
13:58:19  <alluke> i also suggest renaming some cars
13:58:53  <alluke>
13:59:07  <alluke> ive changed the ones marked with red dots
14:02:41  <George> FS#5550
14:05:06  <juzza1> alluke: those seem better than the current ones
14:05:09  <juzza1> ill change later
14:05:17  <alluke> ok
14:05:29  <Eddi|zuHause> George: this probably affects some other values that are "valid for front only"
14:05:53  <George> Eddi|zuHause: And that?
14:06:29  <George> if some properties can't be updated, than only some propertiers should be updated
14:07:01  <George> date_of_last_service does not look like a property that can't be updated
14:09:20  <juzza1> George: maybe use current_year instead
14:09:52  <Eddi|zuHause> juzza1: the idea is that trains don't change livery while running on the track, only in depot.
14:10:00  <George> juzza1: incorrect - vehicles will change the view on the fly instead of after depot
14:10:40  <Eddi|zuHause> do vehicles have animation state or something?
14:10:59  <George> Eddi|zuHause: the one I tested - no
14:11:02  <juzza1> it was more of a response to the problem when vehicles not in front are not updated
14:11:10  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you can use the userbits
14:11:34  <George> Eddi|zuHause: how?
14:11:44  <Eddi|zuHause> set the userbit when the livery changes, and drawing checks only those
14:12:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't really looked into it yet, but likely i need some solution for that as well
14:12:43  <planetmaker> Ristovski, oruge is the person to talk to wrt tt-f
14:12:44  <George> Eddi|zuHause: Incorrect. different engines in consist have different date for a chnge
14:13:08  <Eddi|zuHause> George: well, the bits would be checked only vehicle-local
14:13:09  <Ristovski> planetmaker: is he here on irc?
14:13:19  <Ristovski> I mean, in w/e channel on w/e network
14:13:38  <George> Eddi|zuHause: and how should they be set then?
14:13:40  * planetmaker says nothing and waits for Ristovski to notice :D
14:14:03  <Ristovski> planetmaker: I did notice, wasnt sure if it is him tho
14:14:39  <planetmaker> :-)
14:16:58  <planetmaker> Ristovski, it might be a good idea though to send him an e-mail, though
14:17:11  <Eddi|zuHause> George: i can't seem to find the userbits in the specs :/
14:17:12  <planetmaker> and explain the situation therein
14:17:23  <Ristovski> planetmaker: Yeah, I might if he doesnt reply in query
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14:18:16  <Eddi|zuHause> George: CB36, prop25
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14:19:04  <alluke> is it possible to turn around articulated locos
14:19:10  <planetmaker> no
14:19:10  <alluke> via ctrl-click
14:19:13  <alluke> ok
14:20:05  <Eddi|zuHause> George: not sure whether there's a way to read these bits for only the current vehicle, not the whole chain
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14:22:51  <George> I also do not se a way to read current bit mask for an engine and or it with a new value when the front engine is got serviced
14:23:54  <Eddi|zuHause> the current bits are supposed to be read by var42
14:24:01  <Eddi|zuHause> but that is for the whole consist
14:24:51  <alluke> juzza1: should there be a restriction that forces you to add an aggregate car if youre pulling ic cars with other locos than sr1/2, dr16?
14:26:22  <Eddi|zuHause> George: the "easy" way would be if you could set "generations" that all vehicles will go through, then each bit would mean a different generation, and all vehicles in the chain will switch generation at the same time
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14:27:00  <Eddi|zuHause> the more difficult way would be to introduce a new var that reads the userbits for the current vehicle
14:27:42  <George> Eddi|zuHause: imho a better way be to fix a FS#5550 :)
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14:28:11  <Eddi|zuHause> George: that would fix your symptom, but not the real problem :)
14:28:17  <George> because I do not see any good reason why  the first engine is servised and the second is not
14:28:45  <Eddi|zuHause> George: the vehicle will be serviced on exiting the depot
14:29:22  <George> The problem is the second engine IS not serviced
14:29:52  <Eddi|zuHause> and why should it? the second engine doesn't break down, and has no speed, etc...
14:29:59  <George> regardless entering or leaving depot
14:30:09  <George> It has speed
14:30:19  <Eddi|zuHause> you sure?
14:30:33  <alluke> if the second engine breaks the train shouldnt stop
14:30:44  <alluke> just lose the power and te of the loco
14:30:56  <George> In case front engine is 100kmh and second is 80 km/h the consist goes 80 km/h max
14:31:04  <Eddi|zuHause> George: that is max speed
14:31:09  <Eddi|zuHause> George: i meant current speed
14:31:22  <George> Eddi|zuHause: sorry, misunderstood you
14:31:42  <George> alluke: that would be fine
14:31:44  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want the current speed of the train, you must reference the front engine
14:31:56  <George> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, I know
14:33:56  <alluke> planetmaker: when will we see combined rail- and roadbridges in ottd? :P
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14:51:07  <Eddi|zuHause> George: i do think your issue is an actual issue, but the proposed "solution" only works for your special case. for example i add a random interval to the livery change, but if i then split up a vehicle, it gets different random bits, so the same effect may appear
14:51:41  <Eddi|zuHause> so the idea with using the userbits for permanent storage might be more flexible
14:53:12  <George> I do not use random livery based on head engine yet, only on current engine
14:57:38  <planetmaker> juzza1, what's your username?
15:07:52  <frosch123> what weird posts there are on the forums today
15:08:21  <planetmaker> anything in particular which you mean?
15:09:18  <planetmaker> to me it looked pretty normal. Also the noise level
15:09:53  <frosch123> currently, the one in ttdp and the graphics job inquiry
15:10:27  <planetmaker> ah, graphics job... yes. I wonder(ed) actually whether it's spam. I decided to give it a shot without getting any high hopes
15:12:25  <planetmaker> I laughed quite a bit when I saw "Curse: Finishing Graphic Design". If it's a curse - why does he do it? ;-)
15:13:07  <frosch123> well, i read it as "fishing graphic design" - wtf? :p
15:14:11  <planetmaker> :D
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15:31:22  <Eddi|zuHause> George: i meant, i use the random bits of the front engine, so all vehicles of the chain will use the same livery
15:32:54  <George> and when you move the second engine away from the consist it gets repaineted ;)
15:33:20  <George> Not the thing I want to have in my set :D
15:33:31  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly.
15:34:51  <Eddi|zuHause> and the other problem is that i cannot rerandomize this time, because if the random value is higher than before, it might change the livery back.
15:35:12  <Eddi|zuHause> with the userbits/storage thing i could solve both
15:36:12  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe a 60+ variable that can read any property?
15:36:46  <planetmaker> so... circular CB36? :-P
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15:37:19  <planetmaker> if power == 32 then power = 20 else power = 32 ;-)
15:37:20  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... :)
15:39:17  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but CB36 is usually not called very often, so where is the problem? :)
15:39:36  <planetmaker> in the word "usually" ;-)
15:41:40  <planetmaker> in principle I agree with the idea, Eddi|zuHause. All I try to say is that there might be more or less hidden bear traps
15:42:02  <planetmaker> with circular stuff. and maybe with desyncs if not properly done.
15:42:51  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it is circular already, you can set it by CB36 and read it by var42
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15:46:42  <Eddi|zuHause> "the newspapers' 'please don't use adblock' campaign has resulted in +129% increased downloads of adblock and +167% more donations for adblock"
15:47:04  <planetmaker> :-O
15:47:39  <planetmaker> source, Eddi|zuHause ?
15:47:58  <Eddi|zuHause>
15:49:17  <planetmaker> very nice
15:50:25  <alluke> i have a test railway around the borders of the map
15:50:51  <alluke> btw
15:50:57  <alluke> why is the diesel smoke brown
15:51:33  <Eddi|zuHause> ask simon foster?
15:52:01  <frosch123> why is the adblockplus twitter in german?
15:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause> there's an english tweet as well
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15:57:33  <planetmaker> actually I allowed an exception for them. They have somewhat a point
15:58:09  <frosch123> i am using a white-listing flash blocker
15:58:27  <frosch123> it blocks all of the annoying stuff and uses way less resources than adblock
15:58:57  <Eddi|zuHause> i just turn off flash...
15:59:04  <Eddi|zuHause> and javascript
15:59:09  <frosch123> i am using it too often
15:59:14  <alluke> planetmaker:
15:59:26  <frosch123> for some reason html5 does not seem to be used
15:59:29  <Eddi|zuHause> if i really need those, i open firefox
15:59:37  <frosch123> though my old stable browser would likely not support it anyway
16:00:18  <planetmaker> alluke, ok. And...?
16:00:32  <alluke> in ottd the smoke is brown
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16:02:48  <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: my guess is it was meant to be different from the breakdown smoke
16:03:45  <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: you can replace the sprites by actionA :)
16:04:39  <frosch123> someone should code newsmoke :)
16:04:51  <planetmaker> NewEffectVehicles rather
16:05:06  <planetmaker> NewDisasterVehicles
16:05:23  <planetmaker> oh... how does OpenTTD decide on the shadow's shape?
16:05:24  <frosch123> who uses disasters?
16:05:33  <frosch123> planetmaker: it's just the same?
16:05:42  <frosch123> but with transparancy effect
16:05:44  <planetmaker> same as what? the plane?
16:05:52  <frosch123> yes
16:06:08  <frosch123> it's a flat projection ofc :)
16:06:09  <planetmaker> a pity :-P No disk-shadow from a normal plane ;-)
16:06:10  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: NewEffectVehicle: a tractor roaming the fields of a farm :p
16:06:24  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, that's NewFields
16:06:30  <alluke> tried photohopiing the smoke into greyscale
16:06:42  <alluke>
16:06:51  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: only if you want to go insane from coordinating animation states
16:07:02  <planetmaker> :-)
16:07:29  <planetmaker> alluke, that train only has a *very* slight alignment problem, no?
16:07:29  <Eddi|zuHause> something tells me it would be easier with an effectvehicle
16:07:47  <planetmaker> maybe, yes, Eddi|zuHause
16:07:50  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: or MB's industrial/port railway
16:07:56  <frosch123> i always hated games with pedestrians
16:08:14  <frosch123> first thing which annoyed me about simutrans
16:08:15  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the powerplant smoke is already an effect vehicle
16:08:16  <planetmaker> "vehicle": pedestrian
16:08:24  <planetmaker> true
16:08:29  <planetmaker> and bubbles
16:08:55  <alluke> dont know about that
16:09:19  <alluke> i took it just to test the smoke coloring
16:10:40  <frosch123> [18:06] <planetmaker> a pity :-P No disk-shadow from a normal plane ;-) <- the sun in ttd is a broad laser btw :)
16:10:53  <frosch123> the shadow traces the outline on scale 1:1
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16:11:28  <planetmaker> haha :-) yeah
16:12:50  <Eddi|zuHause> do airplanes at cruising altitude cast a shadow at all?
16:13:22  <planetmaker> yes and no. They don't cover the whole disk of the sun
16:13:25  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the shadow of your fingers vanishes within 1 m distance or so
16:13:27  <planetmaker> thus they only dim light
16:15:03  <frosch123> i would guess a plane stops casting a shadow around 2km altitude
16:15:52  <planetmaker>
16:16:31  <Eddi|zuHause> photoshopped!!!
16:16:58  <planetmaker> sure. But it's relatively easy to take such picture
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16:18:28  <frosch123> most tricky part should be the light filter?
16:18:44  <planetmaker> light filter? To not over expose?
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16:19:00  <planetmaker> Not really needed if you take in the early morning or late evening hours
16:19:06  <frosch123> well, i don't think you can save it with shorter exposure
16:19:36  <hmmm> hi
16:19:39  <planetmaker> First 30 minutes after sun rise or last 30 minutes usually work
16:20:45  <hmmm> mibbit says it is banned from oftc, couldn't join this chat using
16:21:02  <hmmm> im using
16:21:03  <hmmm>
16:21:10  <hmmm> instad
16:22:13  <planetmaker> @ frosch123 And that's overexposed on the sun on purpose
16:22:53  <Terkhen> hello
16:22:56  <hmmm> hi
16:23:01  <planetmaker> hi
16:24:05  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but it'd be difficult to catch a plane on cruising altitude in front of the sun at this angle :p
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16:24:55  <planetmaker> :-) difficult, yes
16:25:21  <planetmaker> but birds at cruising altitude (though also low sun):
16:25:35  <planetmaker> in a somewhat vain attempt to image Venus
16:26:05  <hmmm> here's what I'm here for: I have gathered enough AI tests and took notes of those which I have considered stable
16:26:11  <hmmm> is anyone interested?
16:26:27  <Eddi|zuHause> venus is probably too small to show up on a photo?
16:26:38  <planetmaker> sure. You're aware of a few such test results in the AI sub-forums, hmm?
16:26:53  <hmmm> i'm banned from the forum
16:27:05  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, it shows at a bit more magnification (which the lens is capable of)
16:27:17  <planetmaker> or in projection:
16:27:42  <hmmm> the list is rather small
16:28:48  <hmmm> so here goes
16:28:55  <planetmaker> is known to you, too?
16:29:26  <hmmm> AdmiralAI (v25), survived 100 years in ten 100 years from 1950-2050
16:29:32  <hmmm> ten out ten
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16:30:16  <hmmm> AroAI (v127) - same
16:30:48  <planetmaker> IMHO feel free to make a page in the wiki about your test results. Especially the landscape and possibly NewGRF settings in order to obtain them can greatly influence the results
16:32:53  <hmmm> Admiral (v25), AroAI (v127), Convoy (v11), DictatorAI (v169), MogulAI (v5900), OtviAI (v415), SimpleAI (v8) and Terron (v208) - they're the most stable AIs currently there, with all default settings
16:33:02  <hmmm> freshly created openttd.cfg that is
16:33:25  <hmmm> the others fail one way or another
16:33:25  <planetmaker> what about AIAI?
16:33:28  <planetmaker> or NoCAB?
16:33:50  <hmmm> AIAI have errors in the script in some tests
16:33:56  <planetmaker> Terron... is something I personally don't have the most stable experience with
16:33:57  <hmmm> I took note
16:34:18  <planetmaker> same with MogulAI actually
16:34:20  <hmmm> - Vehicle (Sampson U52) construction failed with ERR_NOT_ENOUGH_CASH(message from AIAI::BuildVehicle), ERR_PRECONDITION_FAILED (before sign construction), engine: Sampson U52, last error is ERR_NONE, debug.nut error: division by zero
16:34:36  <planetmaker> hm?
16:34:51  <hmmm> that is my listing of AIAI errors
16:35:00  <hmmm> - Too many vehicles on this route!, Empty AIVehicleList_Station, Invalid vehicle, aftercheck4 1314, last error is ERR_NONE debug.nut error: division by zero
16:35:18  <planetmaker> does that make them crash?
16:35:27  <hmmm> and the most common one from AIAI is:
16:35:31  <hmmm> - Builder.nut error: the index "Count" does not exist
16:35:43  <planetmaker> ^^ indeed. I recall seeing that
16:36:13  <hmmm> NoCAB doesn't error out
16:36:30  <hmmm> but it has a severe train management bug very late in the game
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16:36:49  <hmmm> it tries to upgrade rail
16:37:06  <hmmm> even when some trains are not stopped in a depot, they're out
16:37:18  <planetmaker> he :-)
16:37:23  <hmmm> so, it finds itself with old train tracks
16:37:25  <planetmaker> Make it better. It's open source
16:37:30  <planetmaker> :-)
16:37:34  <hmmm> but with partial upgraded rails
16:37:39  <hmmm> so, many trains are lost
16:38:05  <hmmm> then I have no idea why it does this: if massively builds 500 trains
16:38:16  <hmmm> like it was really done a great job at upgrading the rail
16:38:22  <hmmm> and goes bankrupt
16:38:36  <hmmm> that happens by year 2020/2030
16:38:46  <hmmm> it's a monorail to maglev bug
16:38:50  <planetmaker> ah, sad. I had recently a lot of AI playing in my test newgrf test games. I guess it never got that far
16:39:20  <hmmm> it tries to upgrade both monorial and railway to maglev, railways seems done well, but monorail...
16:39:21  <hmmm> not
16:40:22  <hmmm> 5 ouf ot 10 games it went bankrupt
16:40:29  <hmmm> the other 5 games
16:40:43  <hmmm> it is still alive with money, but it's not exactly in top form
16:40:51  <hmmm> it would bankrupt if the game lasted a bit more
16:42:47  <gelignite> what i find awful about NoCAB (i think it is NoCAB) is, that it groups vehicles for a route but doesnt share orders. when you buy this AI (buy 100% shares) later in the game, it is tedious to "fix" the orders.
16:43:28  <gelignite> Q: players can connect stations on not adjacent tiles by holding CTRL. what's the correspondent command for NOAI?
16:43:50  <hmmm> i tested gelignite too
16:44:01  <gelignite> it's broken
16:44:10  <hmmm> it doesn't error out
16:44:20  <gelignite> i'm working on an updated version
16:44:44  <hmmm> it however does great money management in my view, maybe because it's too simple
16:45:33  <hmmm> looking if it had ever bankrupted, brb
16:45:38  <gelignite> the concept was to buy 2-4 vehicles and make some money. don't disturb the players and try not to went bankrupt.
16:46:07  <gelignite> i'm sure it will become bankrupt somewhere beyond 2020
16:46:11  <planetmaker> hmm, you indeed might want to make a table like which gathers some stats on the game. And how the AIs did. Possibly on an AI basis rather.
16:46:35  <hmmm> alright, never bankrupted
16:46:46  <hmmm> 7 out of 10 games profit was negative though
16:47:20  <gelignite> should be 10 out of 10 at its current state :-P
16:47:53  <gelignite> that's why i'm looking for the command to build connected stations on not adjacent tiles
16:48:14  <hmmm> now listing those with script errors:
16:48:40  <hmmm> AIAI iota 14
16:48:49  <hmmm> MailAI-20110726
16:48:57  <hmmm> SynTrans-13
16:49:15  <hmmm> TeshiNet-4.0.2
16:49:23  <hmmm> trAIns-2
16:49:30  <hmmm> WmDOT-11.1
16:49:44  <hmmm> these
16:50:31  <hmmm> MailAI seems to have many diverse errors
16:50:44  <hmmm> error: the index 'bridge_end' does not exist
16:50:51  <hmmm> - Route.nut error: the index 'Begin' does not exist
16:50:57  <hmmm> - RailBuilder.nut error: parameter 1 has an invalid type 'null'; expected: 'integer'
16:51:29  <hmmm> - Train is lost
16:51:34  <hmmm> almost everywhere in the log
16:53:55  <planetmaker> @ gelignite
16:54:03  <planetmaker> look at the StationID parameter of that function
16:54:20  * gelignite is looking
16:54:25  <hmmm> for trAIns-2
16:54:32  <hmmm> only 1 error, always the same
16:54:34  <hmmm> railroad_manager.nut error: inconsistent compare function
16:54:52  <planetmaker> or... does that oly allow really adjacent ones?
16:56:01  <planetmaker> in any case, I'm not familiar with AI programming... maybe ask in AI sub-forums, gelignite
16:56:39  <gelignite> i thought that it only allows really adjacent stations, but i'm gonna try something now ...
16:58:15  <hmmm> Teshinet (v4) errors
16:58:24  <planetmaker> It's always good to accompany feature-requests with a code where the requested feature could be easily tested with (by adding a line or two possibly)
16:58:44  <hmmm> Unable to connect stations. Aborting and removing stations.
16:58:50  <hmmm> Trying to build an airport route. planes.nut error: parameter 1 has an invalid type 'null'; expected: 'integer'
16:59:02  <hmmm> - One or more stations or depots were not built. Aborting.
16:59:11  <hmmm> - Town is NOT valid. Invalid location! error: the index 'station_id' does not exist -
16:59:20  <hmmm> - Selling vehicles with invalid or no orders. error: parameter 1 has an invalid type 'null'; expected: 'integer'
16:59:58  <hmmm> this type 'null' excepted 'integer' happens way too often in many scripts which include aircraft
17:00:32  <hmmm> chopper (v10) error:
17:01:01  <hmmm> checking for airports that need upgrading... error: parameter 1 has an invalid type 'null'; expected: 'integer'
17:01:57  <hmmm> also Syntrans
17:02:00  <hmmm> - airport.nut error: the index 'KABOOOOOM_unknown_airport_type' does not exist
17:02:55  <hmmm> cluelessplus and paxlink seem to do aircraft fine enough
17:03:04  <hmmm> terron too
17:05:46  <gelignite> planetmaker, it works. Instead of AIStation::STATION_JOIN_ADJACENT one can use AIStation.GetStationID( TileIndex ); // TileIndex == TileIndex of the station to connect to.
17:06:31  <gelignite> didn't thought of that earlier. I always thought i can use the macros only. :-/
17:07:28  <planetmaker> :-) good that it works :-)
17:08:12  <hmmm> i think AIAI errors are also related to airport construction, let me check
17:08:41  <hmmm> yup, it is
17:08:42  <hmmm> - Vehicle (Sampson U52) construction failed with ERR_NOT_ENOUGH_CASH(message from AIAI::BuildVehicle), ERR_PRECONDITION_FAILED (before sign construction), engine: Sampson U52, last error is ERR_NONE, debug.nut error: division by zero
17:09:19  <hmmm> if I recall, the AI was trying to build an engine that didn't exist anymore
17:10:07  <hmmm> - Too many vehicles on this route!, Empty AIVehicleList_Station, Invalid vehicle, aftercheck4 1314, last error is ERR_NONE debug.nut error: division by zero
17:10:33  <hmmm> that seemed like the AI was counting the number of attempts it tried to build the non-existant Sampson U52
17:10:51  <hmmm> too many vehicles on this route were actually zero vehicles
17:10:59  <hmmm> odd error
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17:16:29  <hmmm> wmdot
17:16:41  <hmmm> - You can't convert a path while there's a running pathfinder. Dominion.Roads.nut error: the index 'remove' does not exist
17:16:53  <hmmm> - CountBuoys() must be supplied with a valid path. OpHibernia.nut error: arith op * on between 'integer' and 'null'
17:17:17  *** valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
17:18:01  <hmmm> roadai v3:
17:18:02  <hmmm> - network.nut error: the index '0' does not exist
17:18:36  <hmmm> now odd behaviours
17:19:01  <hmmm> SimpleAI (v8)
17:19:13  <hmmm> - May not sell old train with breakdowns enabled
17:19:15  <tycoondemon> spam
17:19:33  <hmmm> it is constantly sending the train to a depot
17:19:38  <hmmm> when it breakdowns
17:19:56  <hmmm> at every attempt it does, the train reverses direction
17:20:04  <hmmm> it never gets anywhere
17:20:43  <hmmm> back and forth without entering a depot
17:21:20  <hmmm> - Continuously attempts to build the same route even though it fails
17:21:47  <hmmm> this one is the soloe reason I get bankrupt warnings
17:21:58  <hmmm> thought it never went bankrupt
17:22:36  <hmmm> - Bankrupt warnings with profitable vehicles
17:22:49  <hmmm> well, yeah, that's exactly what I described
17:25:19  <hmmm> Terron
17:25:27  <hmmm> it is very sensitive to game settings
17:26:09  <hmmm> does seem to have problems with expanding road stations
17:26:23  <hmmm> especially when it's close to a bridge
17:26:32  <hmmm> it destroys the bridge
17:26:49  <hmmm> and while the station is expanded, it broke the route
17:29:22  <hmmm> it is also horrible and dealing with rivers
17:29:33  <hmmm> river tiles are its worst route breaker
17:31:04  <NGC3982> Building signals on rails where trains are present. I guess that is a new thing from 1.3.0?
17:31:36  <hmmm> it survived all 10 games thx to great money management
17:32:05  <FLHerne> NGC3982: And very nice it is too :-)
17:32:55  <NGC3982> FLHerne: Indeed!
17:32:57  <NGC3982> :-)
17:33:30  <hmmm> hmm, i'd like to post my findings on the forum, but then again, I don't want to be put up against devs again
17:33:46  <FLHerne> Is there some way to 'svn add' all files added by patches?
17:35:45  <FLHerne> Running make and then adding all the files that it complains don't exist is very silly
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17:43:21  <George> can someone help me with templates in NML?
17:43:26  <George> #define engine_direction_template(name)                      \
17:43:27  <George> switch (FEAT_TRAINS, PARENT, t_##name##_get_spriteset,       \
17:43:27  <George> [                                                            \
17:43:27  <George>   STORE_TEMP(count_veh_id(##name##), 0),                     \
17:43:27  <George>   STORE_TEMP(current_speed, 1),                              \
17:43:28  <George>   STORE_TEMP(date_of_last_service, 2)                        \
17:43:28  <George> ])                                                           \
17:43:30  <George> {                                                            \
17:43:30  <George>   t_##name##_get_spriteset_2;                                \
17:43:32  <George> }                                                            \
17:43:32  <George>
17:43:33  <George> engine_direction_template(vl80s)
17:43:47  <Eddi|zuHause> George: please use a paste site
17:44:03  <George> but I get src/electric/vl80s.pnml:68:1: error: pasting "(" and "vl80s" does not give a valid preprocessing token
17:44:03  <George> src/electric/vl80s.pnml:68:1: error: pasting "vl80s" and "\" does not give a valid preprocessing token
17:44:25  *** DarkAceZ [~BillyMays@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:44:27  <Eddi|zuHause> George: like
17:44:43  <George>
17:45:58  <George>
17:46:15  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25244 /trunk/src/lang (italian.txt spanish.txt) (2013-05-14 17:46:07 UTC)
17:46:16  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:17  <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
17:46:18  <DorpsGek> spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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17:46:43  <Eddi|zuHause> George: sounds like the preprocessor disagrees with you about the semantics of the ## operator
17:47:08  <Eddi|zuHause> George: try veh_id(name) without the ##
17:47:57  <George> Shouldn't it count name instead of vl80s then?
17:48:33  <Eddi|zuHause> vl80s is what you gave as parameter to the macro
17:48:53  <George> yes, it is the vehicle ID name
17:49:11  <hmmm> I'd like to share my set of ideas for some stuff in the game, but part of me already knows I'm gonna be criticized
17:49:54  <Eddi|zuHause> George: use ## if you want to combine the name with another word, leave ## out if you want to just use the name
17:51:12  <Eddi|zuHause> George: not entirely sure where the "\" comes from, though.
17:52:26  <hmmm> rail/road crossings - I had an idea to penalize the train owner in a more "reasonable" way when a road vehicle is destroyed - charge the current road vehicle value as a penalty for the train owner
17:52:46  <hmmm> like some indemnization
17:53:30  <Eddi|zuHause> hmmm: so you bankrupt a company by throwing busses at it?
17:53:59  <hmmm> so it's a bad idea
17:54:23  <George> Eddi|zuHause: Thank you! It works!
17:54:23  <hmmm> but it's a lose lose situation
17:54:41  <FLHerne> A better one would be fixing LCs to stop stuff blowing up so often :P
17:55:22  <FLHerne> Things like 'one bus got hit, so vehicles queue up behind it and get hit by the next train on the other line' are just silly
17:55:42  <FLHerne> What's wrong with the adjacent-crossings patch?
17:56:08  <Eddi|zuHause> it misses a setting for converting old savegames
17:56:24  <hmmm> another idea was to make the road/rail tile to act as a secondary route, only if no other route is found in the vicinity
17:56:31  <Eddi|zuHause> and someone who can write code for drawing diagonal crossings
17:57:31  <Eddi|zuHause> hmmm: it already does that
17:58:00  <hmmm> how does it work exactly? vicinity?
17:58:03  <Eddi|zuHause> both road vehicles and trains get a pathfinder penalty for level crossings
17:58:15  <hmmm> ah
17:58:27  <Eddi|zuHause> so if there's a penalty of 800, it will consider a detour of 8 tiles
17:58:49  <Eddi|zuHause> to avoid this obstacle
17:59:10  <hmmm> it means it needs a road 8 tiles away from the rail/road cross?
17:59:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the road penalty is a bit higher, afaik
18:00:12  <hmmm> does it consider tunnels?
18:00:39  <hmmm> I saw some buses in some game that could get away if it had picked a tunnel
18:00:48  <Eddi|zuHause> why wouldn't it?
18:00:53  <hmmm> instead of going the shortest way via a rail/road cross
18:01:16  <hmmm> the distance, for human, was almost the same between the 2 stations
18:01:20  <hmmm> in either route
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18:02:16  <hmmm> it picked the road/rail cross more often
18:02:34  <hmmm> it depended only if it had to do a service at a depot more closer to the tunnel
18:02:50  <hmmm> that were the only times those buses went via tunnel
18:05:04  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i don't find the right setting in the config
18:06:12  <Eddi|zuHause> might be this one: yapf.road_crossing_penalty = 300
18:06:18  <hmmm> there is yet another idea
18:06:20  <Eddi|zuHause> but the value seems a bit low
18:06:29  <hmmm> ah
18:07:39  <hmmm> there is a train signal that makes the crossing turn red for road vehicles even when the train is way further away from that
18:08:00  <hmmm> I saw it happen a few times
18:08:05  *** Alberth [] has joined #openttd
18:08:08  *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
18:08:25  <FLHerne> hmmm: Path signals (both types)
18:08:46  <FLHerne> If there's a path reserved across the crossing, the barriers go down
18:08:59  <hmmm> interesting
18:09:31  <hmmm> the idea was based on this behaviour
18:10:23  <hmmm> to have some 'invisible' signals on the rail route that would only affect the crossing
18:10:57  <hmmm> only affect road vehicle
18:11:39  <hmmm> it wouldn't be fool proof, but would drasticaly reduce the number of accidents
18:12:13  <Alberth> a bridge is much safer :p
18:12:25  <hmmm> yeah, tell that to the train owner
18:14:44  <Eddi|zuHause> hmmm: traditionally, what these signals did was turn doubletracks into a death trap
18:15:03  <gelignite> i like hitting vehicles with my trains. especially competitors' vehicles. :-) that's my favorite turn to reduce their fleets :)
18:15:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the adjacent crossings patch solves that somewhat
18:15:51  <hmmm> ah, those queuing
18:15:58  <hmmm> yeah, that's a problem
18:18:38  <hmmm> well, my least elegant idea was
18:19:00  <hmmm> a chance that the train is also destroyed when colliding with road vehicle
18:19:43  <Eddi|zuHause> that'll go really well with players :p
18:20:15  <hmmm> can't say how much of a chance
18:20:26  <hmmm> 5%?
18:20:31  <hmmm> 1%?
18:21:05  <hmmm> there's always those abusers who will do it on purpose
18:21:27  <hmmm> the train is never destroyed, but now it would have a chance to happen
18:22:18  <hmmm> or then, the exact opposite
18:22:24  <hmmm> neither is destroyed
18:22:43  <Eddi|zuHause> the only case i know where that happened was when the RV had dangerous cargo like fuel
18:22:43  <hmmm> sort of like ghost mode, go-through each other
18:24:42  *** goodger [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:24:45  <hmmm> now I want to talk about rivers
18:25:05  <hmmm> nice addition
18:25:14  <hmmm> screws up many AIs
18:25:40  <hmmm> but it's rather expensive
18:25:43  <hmmm> to build canals
18:25:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but you can use a base cost mod
18:26:46  <hmmm> no one likes NewGRFs. erm, ok, nearly no one
18:26:54  <hmmm> at least those I've been playing with
18:27:15  <hmmm> it is unattractive
18:27:39  <FLHerne> hmmm: No-one likes NewGRFs in general!?
18:27:50  <hmmm> yes, the most populated servers
18:28:02  <hmmm> are those without any NewGRF requirement
18:28:03  <Alberth> that's a VERY small sample
18:28:05  <FLHerne> hmmm: Ah, servers are different
18:28:17  <FLHerne> But they're a tiny proportion of total players
18:28:38  <Alberth> ever looked at the screenshots forum?  Please find a screenshot without newgrfs
18:28:43  <FLHerne> Trouble is, it's difficult to find a bunch of people who like the *same* combination of grfs :P
18:29:14  <hmmm> if something is "official", then everyone will expect the same settings
18:29:18  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and then get all the GRFs to those people
18:29:23  <hmmm> same costs, same kind of mechanic
18:29:27  <FLHerne> So you run a server with a bunch of grfs you like, and no-one joins because they think 'Oh, I like those grfs, but I hate that other one. Shame' :-(
18:29:31  <Alberth> FLHerne: just like finding agreement on which settings are obsolete  :)
18:29:37  <FLHerne> Been there, done that...
18:29:51  <FLHerne> Not with the settings, servers :P
18:30:09  <Alberth> :)
18:30:34  <hmmm> settings come next
18:30:42  <Alberth> haha :)
18:30:51  <FLHerne> Similarly, I'd love to play Cargodist MP
18:30:54  <hmmm> first thing I do when joining a server is to find one without NewGRF requirements
18:31:09  <hmmm> then to find one with settings I see fair
18:31:10  <FLHerne> but there aren't enough other people who want to, especially with the grfs I want to play with
18:31:53  <hmmm> tendency for the most populated servers are usually small maps
18:32:02  <hmmm> 256x512 or 512x512
18:32:17  <hmmm> larger than this and it becomes least attractive
18:32:20  <V453000> Alberth: that is the biggest sample
18:32:40  <V453000> try having a server without newGRFs, you get enormous amount of players
18:32:44  <hmmm> aircraft also seem to attract players
18:32:48  <V453000> literally Players
18:32:51  <hmmm> even if there's a cap
18:33:00  <Alberth> V: :D
18:33:25  <Alberth> hmmm: set the cap to 0 :p
18:34:14  <V453000> but, to not make it seem like I agree with hmm, server without newGRFs is often full of idiots and trolls, but yes, they are in large quantity
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18:34:45  <Eddi|zuHause> ok, since when does 512^2 qualify as a "small" map?
18:34:48  <hmmm> in fact, the better the number of possible transportation types, the better it helps to get a populated server
18:35:05  <Alberth> V453000: I was thinking  "new users", but fair enough :)
18:35:23  <hmmm> 512x512, if the settings and map layout are attractive enough, will have ppl stay and play for longer
18:35:34  <Alberth> hmmm: what are you getting at? Explaining to us how to attract players?
18:35:49  <hmmm> yes, kinda
18:35:57  <Alberth> tbh, I don't care at all
18:36:01  <V453000> hmmm: I use newGRFs in Every game and our server is always with around 10 companies or more
18:36:01  <hmmm> ok
18:36:21  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Since someone invented 2048^2 ones :P
18:36:45  <Eddi|zuHause> hmmm: huge maps are not popular in MP because they get unplayable after a while
18:36:45  <Alberth> FLHerne: and they still complain it's not big enough :p
18:37:09  <hmmm> I don't have that impression
18:37:10  <Eddi|zuHause> because they slow down computers rather early, and then half the people can't play anymore
18:37:32  <hmmm> big maps are usually for ppl who come in, build a gigantic route then go afk forever
18:37:43  <hmmm> that's not great imo
18:38:01  <hmmm> it feels like a "lone" server
18:38:05  <hmmm> like there's no one there
18:38:11  <hmmm> even with companies in it
18:38:42  <hmmm> there's less interaction
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18:39:10  <hmmm> it also detracts ppl who want to start anew
18:39:32  <FLHerne> Alberth: It isn't :P
18:39:35  <hmmm> "oh that guy already have 9999999999 money, I'm out for another server"
18:39:49  <V453000> I am not sure what are you trying to achieve hmmm, but if you want to read how to actually make a really really good server,
18:39:52  * FLHerne is a large_maps user :D
18:40:22  <Alberth> FLHerne: I just get very much lost on those maps :)
18:40:40  <V453000> more than 512x512 is pointless
18:40:44  <FLHerne> Alberth: Play them between four people, on and off for a few months :P
18:40:59  <V453000> you can put more than 3000 trains on 512x512, which demolishes any cpu for multiplayer playing
18:41:02  <FLHerne> It slowly fills up a bit, and we don't like overly busy-looking maps
18:41:23  <V453000> oh yeah, busy would be terrible
18:41:27  <FLHerne> V453000: You *can*, but then your entire world is made of tracks :P
18:41:30  <Alberth> FLHerne: I never play a game for more than a few days in total
18:41:42  <FLHerne> V453000: We had this argument already :D
18:41:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i've tried large maps like 2048x1024 before. i usually connect half the towns, and after 50 game years the network gets so complex that i have to improve stuff here and there and i don't get to connect anything anymore
18:42:04  <Eddi|zuHause> that was with low number of towns
18:42:09  <Alberth> FLHerne: everything full of tracks is very natural endpoint of the game :p
18:42:34  <FLHerne> Alberth: It's a horrible-looking endpoint though, so larger maps are useful to avoid reaching t :D
18:42:42  <Alberth> :)
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18:43:12  <FLHerne> A better endpoint is 'all the towns and industries are connected by a semi-realistic UK-style rail and road network' :P
18:43:26  <Alberth> I do play weirdly sized maps, like 128x1024 or so
18:43:47  <Alberth> realistic?  can you do that with NUTS?
18:43:47  <Eddi|zuHause> "Endpoint" of a 128x256 map:,%2013.%20Apr%202027.png (12MB)
18:44:07  <FLHerne> Alberth: Nah, who'd want to use something as ugly as NUTS? :D
18:44:21  <V453000> bitch :D
18:44:24  * FLHerne is aware of its creator's presence :P
18:44:58  <V453000> strike back: empty map:
18:46:40  <hmmm> All pathfinders should be YAPF, with forbidden 90deg turns and allowed RV queueing being basically
18:46:43  <Alberth> FLHerne: I do, a very easy to use vehicle set
18:46:44  <hmmm> im reading that guide
18:46:51  <hmmm> that's something I disagree
18:47:03  <hmmm> well I agree with YAPF for everything
18:47:04  <FLHerne> Alberth: I was joking :P
18:47:13  * FLHerne personally wouldn't, though
18:47:15  <hmmm> but not with 90 degrees and rv queue
18:47:43  <hmmm> YAPF hates 90 degrees with ships
18:47:53  <hmmm> "ship is lost" no it's not
18:48:27  <hmmm> rv queue will make lorry stations to clog
18:48:30  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: I have about the first 20 tiles height, then my browser thought it to be enough :)
18:48:34  <hmmm> better to have them constantly moving
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18:49:45  <hmmm> bus stops with full loads
18:49:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: must be a server issue, i can't get the picture either
18:50:06  <hmmm> I try to prevent that when I set a game
18:50:28  <hmmm> those two.way bus stops are still a problem
18:50:54  <Alberth> hmmm: it's no doubt all very interesting, but you are aware that everybody plays a different OpenTTD game?
18:51:24  <Alberth> that's why you have so many settings and newgrfs, everybody can tweak it to his/her own liking
18:51:27  <hmmm> for road networks I find rv queue a problem
18:52:00  * Alberth prefers the word "challenge"
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18:52:17  <Alberth> hi, phone of LordAro
18:52:20  <hmmm> ok, a challenge if I'm playing alone
18:52:30  <hmmm> but a problem with multiple companies using road vehicles
18:52:54  <hmmm> if one inudstry or so dies
18:53:00  <hmmm> full loading
18:53:07  <hmmm> with queue
18:53:20  <LordAro|Phone> hi, irc client of Alberth :-)
18:53:22  <hmmm> is really hmm... hard to cope with
18:53:35  <hmmm> especially if the other player is not there anymore
18:54:07  <hmmm> it is using my road
18:54:15  <hmmm> i can't remove that road
18:54:23  <hmmm> there's his trucks on it
18:54:34  <hmmm> I could adjust my route
18:54:48  <hmmm> but sometimes that route isn't 100% mine
18:55:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i don't know what kind of hiccups the server had, but it seems to work better now
18:55:48  <hmmm> sometimes I depend on his route, and he depends on mine
18:56:10  <hmmm> well, it's just my view of it
18:56:23  <Alberth> indeed, goes much better now
18:56:43  <Eddi|zuHause> of course, my "full" map has way less tracks than V's "empty" map :p
18:57:52  <hmmm> ah, this setting Deliver cargo to a station only when there is a demand: On
18:58:03  <hmmm> think I must be the only one who prefers it Off
18:58:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and it's people like you that prevents us from removing this setting :p
18:58:29  <hmmm> no one has complained about it when Off yet
18:58:43  <hmmm> feels more natural to me
18:58:53  <hmmm> i build a station, and i get cargo there
18:58:57  <hmmm> already waiting
18:59:05  <hmmm> now i just end up building the rest of the route
18:59:15  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not when you have dedicated stations for delivery and for pickup
18:59:47  <Eddi|zuHause> means half the cargo is going to the pickup station and wasted
19:00:27  <hmmm> that is something I disagree
19:00:34  <hmmm> it's true what you say
19:01:01  <hmmm> but I find that it actually makes me see what I can do
19:01:06  <hmmm> what more I can do
19:01:12  <hmmm> sometimes I'm really bored
19:01:32  <hmmm> and i end up seeing what's waiting on my stations and surprise myself... wow I could transport all that cargo
19:01:40  <hmmm> didn't even notice
19:01:45  <hmmm> a good pretext to continue building
19:02:04  <hmmm> so, somewhat I think it keeps ppl doing more stuff
19:02:17  * Alberth has enough problems to move all the cargo he asks for already
19:03:06  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: it's a nice map, tracks can still be followed and admired :)
19:03:28  <Alberth> what's that grey track at the middle of south-east?
19:03:33  <hmmm> sort of a new "motivation"
19:04:14  <Alberth> near the bottom border
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19:05:38  <Eddi|zuHause> one of the NuTracks high speed thingies
19:05:46  <Eddi|zuHause> (older version of NuTracks)
19:06:21  <Alberth> I should try nutracks one time
19:07:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really like the newer NuTracks
19:07:27  <hmmm> oh, about industries and multiple of the same type
19:07:31  <hmmm> banks
19:07:34  <Eddi|zuHause> too noisy and too little difference between tracktypes
19:07:40  <hmmm> multiple banks from temperate
19:07:44  <hmmm> is a problem
19:08:06  <hmmm> they should be considered a primary industry
19:08:08  <Eddi|zuHause> hmmm: yes, that has been mentioned before. also water towers
19:08:22  <hmmm> water towers are secondary
19:08:35  <hmmm> there's not much of an issue in that one imo
19:08:40  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: it's difficult to stop more things to a set
19:08:43  <hmmm> but banks produce both
19:08:44  <Eddi|zuHause> hmmm: but it looks silly if every second house is a water tower
19:08:45  <Alberth> +adding
19:09:16  <hmmm> a player could just build massive number of banks and transport valuables to each other
19:09:20  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i mean the graphics
19:09:50  <hmmm> even when the setting forbids to fund primary industries
19:09:51  <Alberth> ah, not the track types?
19:09:57  <hmmm> why's that?
19:10:03  <Alberth> how do those differ then?  just speed?
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19:10:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the track types haven't changed much. yes, they only differ in speed, but afair you can set the speeds for each
19:10:31  <Alberth> hmmm: a bank is not a primary industry
19:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: and construction price, of course
19:11:04  <hmmm> it is, I could build multiple banks with that setting off
19:11:08  <hmmm> on temperate
19:11:53  <hmmm> it accepts valuables, but also produces valuables
19:12:11  <Alberth> right, I am not sure I want to worry much about speed of tracks, my trains are usually slow enough :p
19:12:38  <Alberth> hmmm: it accepts cargo means it's not a primary industry in the default set
19:13:13  <hmmm> should be an exception then?
19:13:24  <Alberth> make a newgrf for it
19:13:28  <hmmm> :(
19:14:51  <Eddi|zuHause> lmao :p
19:15:04  <Eddi|zuHause> nice turn to the beginning of the discussion :p
19:15:44  <hmmm> yeah I got lost again
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19:18:20  <Alberth> the default set is what it is, and is not going to change since changing it would break all old save games
19:18:49  <Alberth> the way to tweak the game to what you prefer is by game scripts and newgrfs
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19:20:01  <hmmm> ok, :(
19:20:19  <Alberth> if you prefer to ignore that big part of the game, I'd say it's your loss
19:20:27  <hmmm> I wont bother arguing
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19:22:21  <hmmm> ah, wanted to also talk about terraforming, this is something difficult to explain because it also involves autoslope and bridges
19:23:06  <hmmm> ships can get totally blocked by a town owned bridge when autoslope is on
19:23:45  * Alberth ponders creating #openttd.suggestions
19:24:11  <hmmm> I wanted an option that prevents towns to build autosloped bridges
19:24:32  <hmmm> there's an option that completely disables towns from building bridges, which I find excessive
19:24:44  <V453000> Alberth: ultimately useless channel? :D
19:24:48  <hmmm> :(
19:25:02  <hmmm> the bridge starting tile
19:25:25  <hmmm> it's large enough to cover all that tile with water
19:25:40  <hmmm> if a ship was depending on that piece of water to get by
19:25:41  <Alberth> V453000: redirecting people to the right channel is always useful ;)
19:25:51  <hmmm> it will be blocked
19:26:21  <V453000> :P
19:26:25  <hmmm> bad for AIs that use ships, they're not too smart to deal with this
19:28:21  <hmmm> now terraforming, I really would like to have a feature that is not a NewGRF that would prevent leveling down to water level or up from water level, all those other levels would be possible
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19:28:50  <hmmm> too much to ask.?
19:28:53  <hmmm> :(
19:30:45  <Alberth> depends on your expectations who will do the actual work
19:31:10  <hmmm> essentially no terraforming below a certain level
19:31:38  <hmmm> yeh, i know I ask too much
19:33:18  <hmmm> could be applied to autoslope as well
19:33:28  <hmmm> no autosloping below that same certain level
19:33:43  <hmmm> meh... I talk too much
19:34:53  <V453000> code ie
19:34:56  <V453000> it*
19:35:19  <frosch123> just use a basecost newgrf and increase clear water cost by factor 1024
19:35:43  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should prevent towns from clearing (half-) water tiles?
19:36:41  <hmmm> "cannot raise land.... water in the way"
19:36:43  <hmmm> :)
19:37:07  <LordAro|Phone> V453000: you scared me for a little bit there - why would anyone want to code Internet Explorer?? :3
19:37:14  <V453000> raise clear water cost factor by 64000
19:37:38  <Alberth> LordAro|Phone: improving it is easy? :)
19:37:48  <hmmm> problem is.... water above that level could be terraformed
19:37:56  <hmmm> I thought about this
19:38:04  <hmmm> rivers
19:38:26  <hmmm> they're kind of ruining my suggestion
19:39:27  <hmmm> if only river tiles were set to be permanent objects
19:40:11  <frosch123> increase clear river cost by factor 1024
19:40:30  <hmmm> takes a NewGRF for that
19:41:08  <frosch123> hmm, i believe clear water and clear river is the same :p
19:41:16  <frosch123> only clear canal is separate
19:41:43  <hmmm> couldn't river tiles be treated the same way those lighthouses are?
19:42:59  <hmmm> canal is different, that is company owned stuff
19:43:10  <hmmm> can be destroyed
19:43:38  <frosch123> make no sense for lakes
19:43:45  <V453000> raise the cost so it cannot be demolished
19:43:47  <frosch123> you would also have to forbit leveling sea
19:43:59  <V453000> oh wait you hate newGRFs
19:44:00  <V453000> too bad
19:44:48  <hmmm> what I hate about newgrf is that it's considered "non-default"
19:44:55  <hmmm> like some mod
19:45:10  <hmmm> something extra for the original game, but not the original game
19:45:38  <LordAro|Phone> In fairness, using "use a newgrf" to fix a games balancing issues is a pretty poor excuse
19:45:44  <hmmm> like i'm playing something unofficial
19:46:28  <Eddi|zuHause> hmmm: and AIs are not?
19:46:39  <hmmm> AIs are
19:46:49  <hmmm> they dont' require the player who joins the server
19:46:58  <hmmm> to download any extra
19:47:06  <hmmm> it's "transparent"
19:47:45  <Eddi|zuHause> so what you're really saying is to make transferring the NewGRFs on join transparent for the user=
19:47:47  <Eddi|zuHause> ?
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19:48:15  <hmmm> hmmm if it's really happening
19:48:21  <hmmm> but not locally stored forever, yes
19:48:25  <hmmm> like an AI
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19:49:23  <hmmm> when someone joins one of my games with an AI running, he's not downloading the AI
19:49:35  <hmmm> but there's an AI running
19:49:57  <hmmm> when he leaves the game, he doesn't get the AI
19:50:21  <hmmm> it is host dependant
19:50:26  <hmmm> not client
19:51:29  <V453000> your suggestions are amazing
19:51:32  <LordAro|Phone> That would require a massive change to the client-server set up
19:52:52  <hmmm> er...?
19:53:20  <hmmm> hope it is
19:55:01  <LordAro|Phone> V453000: don't be mean to newbies - you were one once ;)
19:55:44  <V453000> yes but I didnt suggest things which are already solvable, it just "doesnt feel default"
19:56:53  <hmmm> I had one succesful game set on arctic tileset with an AI running
19:57:06  <hmmm> I say successful becase there were other players
19:57:17  <hmmm> not those who join and leave
19:57:38  <hmmm> lasted well over 50 years
19:57:54  <hmmm> it was AroAI i think
19:58:07  * LordAro|Phone woops
19:58:38  <LordAro|Phone> As in, woot woot
19:58:43  <LordAro|Phone> Yay :)
19:58:45  <hmmm> they made aircraft, AroAI however had many old buses though
19:59:08  <hmmm> still, it was working out fine for 2 other guys
19:59:35  <hmmm> I was the one who went mass trucks though and those buses kinda slowed me
20:00:15  <LordAro|Phone> I haven't done any development on AroAI in over a year - I never did get around to implementing more 'advanced' features :L
20:01:34  <hmmm> I saw helicopters, airplanes, trains and ships
20:01:48  <hmmm> diverse enough for my tasting, hence I say succesful
20:02:20  <hmmm> trains were hard really
20:02:26  <hmmm> 'cus im biased against them
20:02:48  <hmmm> but they managed to deal with it with a bit of my help
20:04:52  <hmmm> was toying with the realistic acceleration settings
20:05:02  <hmmm> 10% for steepness
20:05:12  <hmmm> weigth x3
20:05:56  <hmmm> had to teach them to make tunnels, bridges and smooth-scape hills for those trains
20:06:16  <hmmm> they really don't like to plan routes
20:06:26  <hmmm> but this is how I wanted
20:06:37  <hmmm> how I intended trains to be
20:06:45  <hmmm> hard with cliffs
20:06:52  * Alberth also doesn't plan routes
20:07:13  <frosch123> LordAro|Phone: am i allowed to contribute a palindrome generator to aroai? :p
20:08:19  <LordAro|Phone> If you like :D
20:09:01  <hmmm> in the end
20:09:15  <hmmm> it felt like locomotion
20:09:19  <juzza1> George: did you solve your previous problem with liveries yet? it just occured to me, that maybe changing the scope of the switch from SELF to PARENT would help
20:09:26  <hmmm> trains can't just go uphill
20:09:38  <hmmm> you have to plan a better route if you need them to go uphill
20:10:31  <Alberth>  ?
20:11:02  <hmmm> ahaha, bad example
20:11:09  <George> juzza1: Well.. no. I changed from SELF to PARENT, but there is a bug left - when you split a train in depot it gets old graphics. When coming out it becomes new.
20:11:16  <alluke> nice building
20:11:22  <George> so, a problem is seen in depot only
20:11:35  <George> but it can't be solved inside GRF
20:11:45  <Terkhen> good night
20:11:51  <juzza1> ok
20:12:03  <hmmm> in locomotion, to have a train to succefully go up a level
20:12:04  <frosch123> Alberth: haha, you do the same sillyness as i do :) long way up, straight down when empty on retour :p
20:12:10  <hmmm> it needs 2 slopes
20:12:35  <hmmm> on my game, it needed 2 slopes as well, but 1 is straight, the other is level
20:12:49  <hmmm> and the train length couldn't be all that large
20:12:59  <Alberth> frosch123: until we add a derailment disaster :p
20:12:59  <hmmm> and have many consecutive hills
20:13:19  <hmmm> either a small train going up many tiles
20:13:29  <hmmm> or a large train going up not that many tiles
20:14:04  <Alberth> frosch123: what do you do with full load downward?
20:14:19  * Alberth also goes straight down :p
20:14:35  <frosch123> actually, i think i switched to building them in parallel the same way
20:14:54  <frosch123> but yeah, empty/full doe snot matter
20:15:28  <LordAro|Phone> Doe snot? Eww :-P
20:15:39  <hmmm> there is still an issue that bothers me yet with the realistic acceleration
20:15:48  <hmmm> making turns
20:15:49  <Alberth> in parallel as 2 tiles wide zigzag up?
20:15:58  <frosch123> sometimes when there is a massive hill (height 10 with only straight slopes), i build the train station at the bottom and do straight heqs transfer
20:16:12  <Alberth> :o
20:16:20  <Alberth> that's a nice one
20:16:31  <hmmm> with realistic acceleration, a small turn doesn't affect speed at all
20:16:57  <hmmm> the original, every turn does affect speed
20:17:04  <frosch123> Alberth: well, somewhat parallel, sometimes you cannot put them next to each other, but need some tiles distance
20:17:37  <frosch123> hmmm: are you sure, i would rather think with original turns do not matter at all
20:17:53  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe he meant slopes?
20:17:59  <hmmm> i mean making turns
20:18:18  <hmmm> train needs to turn left by 45
20:18:24  <hmmm> original loses speed
20:18:27  <hmmm> realisting, nothing
20:18:29  <frosch123> with original, even depots were not speed limiting
20:18:46  <frosch123> unless i fixed that recenty... cannot remember whether i changed it or left it
20:18:53  <hmmm> road vehicles lose speed
20:18:56  <hmmm> at every turn
20:19:03  <hmmm> trains not exactly
20:19:15  <LordAro|Phone> 400mph maglev into depot? Choo choo!
20:19:40  <frosch123> LordAro|Phone: i don't think there is a speed limit when running into a black hole
20:20:17  <hmmm> it depends on the whole train lenght and how many turns during train length
20:20:45  <hmmm> the issue happens only if it's only 1 turn
20:20:48  <Eddi|zuHause> the speed limit is the speed of light, which is the entire point of a black hole :p
20:20:49  <hmmm> no loss in speed
20:21:04  <LordAro|Phone> Can't be a black hole - you get stuff out of it
20:21:07  <Eddi|zuHause> there wouldn't be any black holes without speed of light
20:21:15  <LordAro|Phone> Maybe a wormhole thoigh :)
20:21:16  <hmmm> hmm please?
20:21:34  <Eddi|zuHause> wormholes are bridges/tunnels
20:21:49  <hmmm> no one gets what I'm refering?
20:22:48  <hmmm> i need to find the wiki example
20:23:23  <LordAro|Phone> hmmm: we all get what you're referring to, but I don't get what your point is
20:23:51  <hmmm>
20:24:43  <hmmm> the 200 km/h one
20:24:45  <Alberth> frosch123: I once had 2 parallel tracks up :)
20:24:53  <hmmm> it goes constantly at 200
20:25:00  <hmmm> should not be like that
20:25:09  <hmmm> should lose speed at every turn
20:25:43  <hmmm> not a cap on max speed, just subtracting speed from it's current speed
20:26:04  <alluke> planetmaker: do trains avoid bridges if there are routes without them available?
20:26:59  <hmmm> the 132 kmh example is fine
20:27:11  <hmmm> that is a cap on the max speed
20:28:53  <hmmm> essentially, I want a mix of both original and realistic for trains making turns
20:29:00  <hmmm> that would be ideal
20:29:38  <frosch123> <- Alberth :)
20:29:55  <frosch123> confuses me every time i look at it
20:30:00  <Alberth> LordAro|Phone: there is no point, it's just explaining the one true way of how openttd should behave, under the assumption that everybody plays the same way and has the same interests in the game
20:30:08  <frosch123> it looks like 2 track in one direction, and four in the other
20:30:18  * Alberth clicks the links very carefully....
20:31:12  <Alberth> indeed :)
20:31:25  <V453000> you need stepped climbing for strong trains? I am not even asking what is the weight multiplier and slope_steepness
20:32:43  <hmmm> is that question for me?
20:33:07  <frosch123> V453000: ofc its choosen in a way it is fun :p
20:33:31  <V453000> well making medium and fast classes worthless aint fun :P
20:33:56  <frosch123> why, you can use them downhill, or in flat terrain
20:34:02  <Alberth> V453000: I also build these zigzags up the hill even when not needed, it looks so much better :)
20:34:10  <V453000> :D nuff sed
20:34:15  <frosch123> and if you play with breakdowns, acceleration is not nearly as important as you always claim :p
20:34:33  <V453000> omfg breakdowns
20:34:33  <hmmm> who?
20:34:51  <hmmm> breakdowns are to be taked into consideration when planning a train route
20:34:55  <hmmm> taken
20:35:07  <frosch123> V453000: i cannot help you, if you remove essential gameplay elements, and then complain that there are not enough criterions for choices :p
20:35:16  <Alberth> :D
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20:35:54  <V453000> :D breakdowns arent essential :D
20:36:02  <V453000> also I never complained there arent enough choices
20:36:19  <hmmm> I'm lost, what are you guys talking about?
20:36:40  <Alberth> openttd, what else?
20:36:49  <LordAro|Phone> :-P
20:36:56  <hmmm> yes:(
20:37:02  <frosch123> hmmm: we are trapped in a time cyclus, ocassionaly we just talk about the same
20:37:21  <hmmm> try these settings
20:37:31  <hmmm> steepness 10%, weigth x3
20:37:39  <hmmm> max length 5
20:37:47  <frosch123> hmmm: but then there is no point in fast engines :p
20:38:17  <hmmm> there is
20:38:37  <LordAro|Phone> Oop, hi Zuu
20:38:38  <alluke> lol
20:38:48  <alluke> i have never used breakdowns in my games
20:38:52  <hmmm> just need to build smoother
20:38:55  <hmmm> routes
20:39:27  <hmmm> or use the alternative
20:39:31  <hmmm> road vehicles
20:39:54  <hmmm> if the route is just too damn hilly for train
20:39:56  <V453000> are you aware that all of the people you are telling this to know kind of a lot of stuff about openttd?
20:40:02  <hmmm> yes
20:40:27  <frosch123> hmmm: how do wetrails work with 10% slope?
20:40:35  <alluke> hmm
20:40:42  <hmmm> wetrail?
20:40:46  <V453000> frosch123: newGRFs are prohibited
20:40:48  <alluke> if the route is too hilly , build serpentine rails
20:40:53  <hmmm> railroad?
20:41:02  <alluke> yes
20:41:04  <alluke> curvy
20:41:11  <alluke> smooth incline
20:41:14  <frosch123> V453000: what, he is talking about only default engines?
20:41:21  <Eddi|zuHause> if the route is too hilly, don't use rails
20:41:29  <hmmm> exactly zu
20:41:36  <hmmm> use road vehicle
20:41:45  <V453000> strong trains?
20:41:47  <V453000> :d
20:41:48  <hmmm> if the route is straigth forward
20:41:51  <hmmm> use train
20:41:52  <frosch123> "zu" is an awesome nickname :p
20:41:57  <Eddi|zuHause> :p
20:42:07  <frosch123> "zu" from team "eddi"
20:42:23  <hmmm> er, you evil ppl
20:42:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. we're so evil we get distracted by side-discussions when the conversation gets boring
20:43:35  <V453000> XD
20:44:39  <hmmm> you focus too much on trains
20:44:56  <V453000> certainly
20:45:17  <V453000> get 2000 trains on 512x512 then we can talk again :)
20:45:18  <frosch123> i am not sure whether wetrails counts as trains
20:45:24  <V453000> frosch123: probably does :P
20:45:59  <hmmm> when the thought of trains not being able to do everything in the game comes up, you're quick to disregard me
20:46:28  <frosch123> maybe V, i use trams and ships regulary
20:46:39  <hmmm> i believe trains are supposed to be weak on turns and hills
20:46:51  <frosch123> sometimes helicopters when i really want to transport gold or valueables
20:46:54  <alluke> obly tight turns
20:46:57  <alluke> only*
20:46:58  <hmmm> weak, perhaps I shall say, severely underpowered
20:47:03  <alluke> and big hills
20:47:03  <FLHerne> hmmm: The trouble is, that trains *can* be forced to do everything, if you're V453000 and enjoy making the entire world into a rail junction ;-)
20:47:06  <V453000> trains give unchallenged amount of options in compare to any other vehicle type, in the long term building with trains is endlessly more interesting
20:47:12  <hmmm> so that other vehicle types are the answer
20:47:13  <alluke> trains have so much inertia they roll easily over small hills
20:47:35  <alluke> with enough speed
20:47:36  <hmmm> to make it more diverse when picking what transport to use
20:47:45  * Alberth just adds more engines :)
20:48:16  <hmmm> it's a bit sad no one agrees
20:48:19  <V453000> superstrong class if all else fails :D
20:48:32  <FLHerne> hmmm: So increase the cargo multiplier and hill steppness for trains
20:48:41  <hmmm> yes
20:48:48  <FLHerne> hmmm: Then your trains will be weak, and slow on hills :P
20:48:58  <FLHerne> Those are both in the settings somewhere ;-)
20:49:05  <hmmm> but pure straigths on the same level with realistic acceleration is still easier than the original
20:49:35  <FLHerne> hmmm: If you increase the cargo weight multiplier, it's not...
20:49:38  <Alberth> hmmm: it's not sad, it means everybody can play it in his/her favorite way
20:49:41  <alluke> the original acceleration model is the second worst thing after auschwitz
20:49:48  <frosch123> hmmm: well, your points are a bit week, if you make false claims about original acceleration in curves, and if you deny to play with newgrf, and thus never had a chance to learn about power and tractive effort
20:49:53  <V453000> XD I will remember that alluke
20:49:54  <V453000> well said
20:50:05  <hmmm> i played with realistic acceleration
20:50:14  <FLHerne> hmmm: There are enough settings that you can make your trains perform in a wide variety of ways
20:50:17  <hmmm> i enjoyed to see maglevs unable to go uphill
20:50:27  <hmmm> it needed torque
20:50:30  <hmmm> or smother hilsl
20:50:34  <FLHerne> If you can't change enough settings, make a NewGRF in which trains behave as you wish
20:50:35  <hmmm> or tunnels
20:50:37  <hmmm> or bridges
20:50:39  <hmmm> that's it
20:50:45  <hmmm> that's the best aspect of realistic
20:50:56  <hmmm> but on turns
20:51:03  <hmmm> realistic is actually easier for trains
20:51:05  <Alberth> except openttd does not aim at realism :)
20:51:11  <alluke> lol
20:51:15  <alluke> my ottd games do
20:51:22  <FLHerne> Alberth: A lot of its grf-makers and players do :P
20:51:23  <V453000> SO IT DOES.
20:51:31  <hmmm> if someone terraforms the whole route
20:51:32  <V453000> :P
20:51:37  <hmmm> which happens so often
20:51:42  <alluke> i use only real-life stuff and realistic building
20:51:49  <alluke> and 2cc is cancer
20:51:50  <hmmm> realistic will become more profitable
20:51:54  <hmmm> than original
20:52:02  <hmmm> turns should deter that
20:52:04  <FLHerne> This city is tolerably realistic, I think
20:52:17  <Alberth> FLHerne: yes, most newgrfs contain too much stuff to be useful or understandable for me :(
20:52:23  <hmmm> so I enjoy turns from original accel and cliffs climbing from realistic
20:52:32  <alluke> hmm
20:52:36  <hmmm> and i'd propose both
20:52:39  <alluke> build faster curves
20:52:40  *** KouDy [~KouDy@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:52:40  <hmmm> on the same
20:52:44  <FLHerne> hmmm: It's possible to reduce the effect of curve radius by newgrf ;-)
20:52:57  <FLHerne> UKRS2 already does that for tilting trains
20:53:06  <alluke> trains cant take \_/ curves 80kmh irl
20:53:11  <Alberth> FLHerne: it looks pretty, I don't have the patience to make such things
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20:58:10  <hmmm> what about a configurable setting for turns?
20:58:14  <hmmm> on the realistic
20:59:52  <hmmm> i can tweak acceleration with weigth, hill climbing with steepness, but turns aren't all that much customizable
20:59:58  <FLHerne> hmmm: The devs don't like to add settings for things that can be done in newgrf
21:00:28  <hmmm> ok :(
21:00:50  <alluke> hmm: whats your problems with turns
21:01:03  <Alberth> it gives chaos when having two captains at a ship in such cases
21:01:21  <alluke> post a screenie of one turn and whats wrong with it
21:01:26  <hmmm> ok
21:01:26  <Alberth> alluke: read the monologue of the past hour or so? :)
21:01:39  <alluke> i think ive got it
21:01:42  <hmmm> it's all about the speed at which turns are done
21:01:43  <alluke> but still
21:02:13  <alluke> i hate it when people dont understand the basic laws of physics and then moan about realistic simulation
21:02:25  <hmmm> there is a 0 km/h decrease on turns with realistic
21:02:35  <hmmm> but there is a cap to the max speed on turns
21:02:55  <hmmm> maybe I can't make myself clear on this
21:03:16  <hmmm> original: train goes at 112 km/h - makes a simple turn 45º
21:03:19  <hmmm> loses speed
21:03:23  <hmmm> GOOD! I like it
21:03:37  <alluke> make the turn broader
21:03:38  <hmmm> realistic: train goes at 112 km/h - same a simple turn 45º - still 112
21:03:40  <hmmm> BAD
21:03:40  <alluke> easy fix
21:03:52  <hmmm> tell me
21:04:29  <alluke> good night
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21:05:57  <hmmm> i prefer to have every kind of turn to impact current speed, but not cap the speed
21:06:27  <hmmm> if it goes at 112 km/h, lose some speed, perhaps -15 km/h
21:06:36  <hmmm> at every kind of turn
21:06:53  <hmmm> so, it goes down to 97 km/h
21:07:24  <hmmm> if it goes at 150 km/h, lose that same speed to 135
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21:07:48  <hmmm> right now, the perfect turns end up not impacting speed at all with realistic
21:07:57  <hmmm> perfectly lay out on the track
21:08:01  <Rubidium> but... train's can't make 45 degree turns, so you should forbid them from going through those turns
21:08:42  <Rubidium> also, in the real world there are many turns that have absolutely no impact on speed
21:10:14  <hmmm> road vehicles, even with realistic, lose speed at every turn
21:10:16  <hmmm> why not trains
21:10:22  <Rubidium> e.g. (some) high speed switches have such large radii that the straight and divergent track have the same maximum speed
21:11:13  <hmmm> a perfect lay out of tracks
21:11:23  <hmmm> will still allow a train to go max speed, no impact
21:11:32  <hmmm> even if it's zig zag
21:11:39  <hmmm> do that with a road vehicle
21:11:45  <hmmm> it doesn't happen the same
21:12:02  <Rubidium> if road vehicles have 45 degree turns, they won't do that either
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21:13:03  <hmmm> thank you for understanding me, english is bad for me
21:13:25  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:13:40  <hmmm> i'm getting worse at it by the day
21:16:23  <Rubidium> ah... there she is: the 1:39.173 switch (those yellow things in the track are near the tongue)
21:17:34  <Rubidium> these have a maximum divergent speed of 160 km/h, while 160 km/h is also the maximum line speed, i.e. for the straight track
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21:20:32  <hmmm> what can you see as good in the realistic train accel in your opinion?
21:20:42  *** Alberth [] has left #openttd []
21:21:24  <hmmm> well, nevermind
21:23:34  <hmmm> i don't know anything about real life so i can't talk about that
21:23:48  <hmmm> how trains work
21:25:59  <hmmm> think I've exposed all my concerns
21:26:12  <planetmaker> @logs
21:26:13  <DorpsGek> planetmaker:
21:26:27  <frosch123> planetmaker: you haven't missed anything :p
21:26:34  <planetmaker> ok :D
21:27:04  <hmmm> oh, building a bridge over company-owned land, is that intended behaviour?
21:27:15  <hmmm> last thing, then i'm gone
21:27:30  <frosch123> planetmaker: it could only have been worse if belugas would have joined the discussion :p
21:27:59  <frosch123> hmmm: fs#5524
21:28:30  <hmmm> yes
21:28:36  <hmmm> is that intended?
21:28:59  <Rubidium> and now the inverse question: should I be able to box someone in by just buying land?
21:28:59  <frosch123> night
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21:29:22  <hmmm> no
21:30:18  <Rubidium> that answer implies that building a bridge over company owned land is okay (to prevent boxing in)
21:30:33  <hmmm> neither are
21:31:21  <Rubidium> anyhow, the best solution is to remove company owned land
21:32:04  <hmmm> but in my view, when someone reserves land, no one expects to be able to counter-measure it
21:32:13  <hmmm> it's still two wrongs
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21:34:14  <hmmm> for the sake of intended behaviour, I think building a bridge over someone else's land shouldn't be possible
21:37:24  <planetmaker> no bridge over rail or road or canal?
21:37:36  <planetmaker> would make them kinda useless
21:38:22  <planetmaker> better solution is to allow (some) station parts be built under bridges :-)
21:38:47  <FLHerne> ^^ would be AWESOME!
21:39:01  * FLHerne is excited enough to be using ALLCAPS! :D
21:39:12  <hmmm> build an airport
21:39:19  <hmmm> heh... looks really bad
21:39:21  <hmmm> but k
21:39:43  <hmmm> can't treat those tiles as something different?
21:42:30  <planetmaker> George, what you try with that template earlier, it's got nothing to do with NML. It's simply using the pre-processor templating functions of gcc
21:43:00  <planetmaker> and use of those is one of two reasons I employ it
21:43:51  <hmmm> ah, the midi bug
21:44:06  <hmmm> meh... i just ended up playing no midi
21:44:51  <hmmm> I hear some reverb on the midi, which somewhat explains THX is in effect
21:45:07  <hmmm>
21:46:54  <hmmm> how many sound channels does OTTD use?
21:47:46  <hmmm> I was able to trigger the issue with ottd fully zoomed out, which increases the number of simultaneous sounds being played at the same time
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21:48:20  <hmmm> even without midi playing, there were times it clogged the buffer and stopped windows from playing any more sounds
21:48:37  <hmmm> it happened with too many sounds playing at the same time
21:48:51  <hmmm> do you know what it could be?
21:51:42  <glx> hmmm: 2 channels, it's simple stereo
21:52:25  <hmmm> hmm, strange
21:52:50  <hmmm> what about that mixing up to 128 voices or what
21:52:57  <hmmm> i hear many sounds
21:53:30  <hmmm> but it can't play that many, it will end up with my system playing no sound at all
21:53:38  <hmmm> is it voice or channel?
21:54:39  <hmmm> really sucks, i have either to stop/start the sound driver or reboot the system
21:54:49  <glx> openttd merges all sounds in a buffer before sending them to the sound card
21:55:21  <hmmm> what about the after effects?
21:55:27  <hmmm> THX
21:55:40  <hmmm> adds reverb, some echo, some fade out on some sounds
21:55:41  <glx> none
21:55:47  <hmmm> will this happen after or before?
21:56:01  <hmmm> so, sound blaster is the culprit
21:56:27  <glx> music is managed "directly" by windows
21:56:53  <hmmm> there is a conflict then
21:57:08  <hmmm> i think somehow the buffer is full at times
21:57:32  <hmmm> it clogs and stops playing sound from then on
21:57:52  <hmmm> for the whole system :/
21:58:06  <glx> maybe a driver problem
21:58:13  <hmmm> okay, THX
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21:59:27  <hmmm> when it's not clogged yet, I hear some sound pauses
21:59:52  <hmmm> no sound for a brief moment, then suddenly, it "dejects" all sounds that should have been played at once
22:00:03  <glx> openttd uses simple WAV files fot sound effects, and those are mixed before being sent to windows
22:00:30  <glx> very basic stuff
22:00:32  <hmmm> so, this symtpom is buffer retaled but not openttd fault?
22:00:48  <hmmm> hmm :( how could i track the exact cause?
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22:02:48  <hmmm> what windows says is something about DirectSound being in use by another application
22:03:02  <hmmm> can't play any testing sound
22:03:17  <glx> openttd doesn't use directsound
22:03:33  <glx> or at least not directly
22:03:42  <__ln__> no wonder it's another application using it then
22:03:54  <hmmm> so... it can only be THX
22:03:59  <hmmm> grrrr sound blaster
22:04:13  <glx> for sound we use the legacy method, ie waveOut
22:04:35  <hmmm> what about midi?
22:05:12  <Eddi|zuHause> midi is totally separate from sound
22:05:32  <hmmm> seems like THX effects picks both sound sources and mixes them into a clog
22:05:38  <hmmm> grrr
22:05:40  <hmmm> ok thank you
22:05:46  <glx> there are 2 midi drivers: directmusic and win32
22:06:08  <hmmm> it's win32 which then comes out as DirectSound apparently
22:06:39  <hmmm> no win32 audio device available
22:06:44  *** tokai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:06:55  <hmmm> (because the available one is clogged"
22:07:03  <hmmm> as far as I can tell, that's what's happening
22:07:54  <hmmm> this thing has only happened with OpenTTD, which is really strange
22:08:05  <hmmm> to completely shut down any sound from being played
22:08:19  <hmmm> not even those windows specific sounds play
22:08:34  <hmmm> he whole thing went mute
22:09:04  <hmmm> I had other issues with sound, but nothing close to preventing sound on the whole system
22:09:28  <hmmm> I had flash not playing sound at times
22:09:35  <hmmm> but that was only flash
22:09:50  <hmmm> not the whole system
22:10:07  <glx> really looks like a problem on your side
22:10:14  <glx> driver or hardware
22:10:40  <hmmm> I solve the flash thing by restarting IE
22:11:05  <hmmm> usually all the other problems are fixed when restarting the application
22:11:23  <hmmm> OpenTTD is the exception
22:11:55  <hmmm> and they don't happen as often as you might think
22:12:04  <hmmm> only when there's driver updates
22:12:33  <hmmm> it's like something became misconfigured the first time it goes to play
22:13:36  <hmmm> not easy to configure the sound for first play
22:13:41  <hmmm> but it's doable
22:14:03  <hmmm> and it's fixed for as long as I don't install more drivers
22:14:17  <glx> weird system :)
22:14:21  <hmmm> sound is then the last thing I have to configure
22:14:25  <hmmm> yeah
22:15:43  <hmmm> the problem is that sound blaster itself is dealing with old software not directly supported on windows 7
22:16:02  <hmmm> the combination of whole + new driver models
22:16:19  <hmmm> works, but needs some tricks
22:17:23  <hmmm> EAX and ALchemy for example
22:17:29  <glx> especially on 64bit I guess
22:17:35  <hmmm> part of EAX is new
22:17:49  <hmmm> some other part is old, from Windows XP era
22:18:04  <hmmm> and needs ALchemy to make it work on windows 7
22:18:26  <hmmm> but on top of all these there's still THX studio
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22:18:37  <hmmm> the thing which creates 'realism'
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22:18:55  <hmmm> all three don't really cope well together
22:19:08  <glx> I have a basic realtek HD provided by the mother board, that's simpler and it just works :)
22:19:16  <hmmm> :)
22:19:22  <hmmm> mobo was cheap
22:19:27  <hmmm> when i bought it
22:19:32  <hmmm> it was 2nd hand
22:19:39  <hmmm> came with CPU
22:19:48  <hmmm> CPU came with water cooler
22:20:07  <hmmm> and as a bundle, a 620 PSU
22:20:11  <hmmm> a real good one
22:20:16  <hmmm> for €300
22:20:34  <glx> but often "old" hardware is meant for "old" OS
22:20:41  <hmmm> CPU FX-8150 which at that time, was expensive and was being bombarded
22:20:46  <hmmm> with negative reviews
22:21:14  <hmmm> this hardware is new
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22:21:22  <hmmm> all of it
22:21:32  <hmmm> the old things in it are their software
22:21:44  <hmmm> their drivers, their programs to make old stuff work on new OS
22:21:57  <glx> yeah that's the silly part
22:22:50  <hmmm> I can really tell the difference
22:23:16  <hmmm> the sound is indeed different but it's pretty much software emulated effects
22:23:29  <hmmm> the difference is just worth it
22:23:40  <hmmm> it really feels like it's some badass soundcard installed on
22:23:51  <glx> they used to do it via hardware
22:23:55  <glx> IIRC
22:23:58  <hmmm> while in truth it's just a licensed software from creative to work on realtek
22:24:12  <hmmm> they call it CODEC
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22:24:55  <hmmm> the coil noise
22:24:58  <hmmm> is mitigated
22:25:01  <hmmm> I still hear it
22:25:15  <hmmm> but not as noticeable as on a system with just realtek
22:32:09  <hmmm> TerraGenesis
22:32:19  <hmmm> who works for TerraGenesis?
22:33:32  <hmmm> what would be the ideal settings for terragenesis to create an arctic game
22:33:51  <hmmm> it nearly makes no ice, even with mountainous
22:34:13  <hmmm> the original landscape is just tooo frightening
22:34:22  <hmmm> this one is somewhat lacking
22:35:06  <hmmm> other than that, TerraGenesis is great for all other tilesets
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22:39:10  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody's worked on terragenesis for years
22:39:46  <hmmm> :)
22:40:09  <hmmm> there's barely forest, but when they are
22:40:15  <hmmm> they're all coupled together
22:40:46  <glx> arctic forests are only above snow line IIRC
22:40:56  <hmmm> yes yes I know
22:41:47  <hmmm> if i put too much water level
22:41:59  <hmmm> then the land is extreme
22:42:13  <hmmm> either ice on all of it, or no ince at all
22:42:24  <hmmm> no real mid term, unless it was somewhat lucky
22:42:37  <glx> you can change snow line position
22:43:09  <hmmm> hmm :(
22:44:20  <glx> default is 7 but can be anything between 2 and 13
22:44:35  <hmmm> industry placing
22:44:43  <hmmm> is the most problematic issue
22:45:09  <hmmm> sometimes there is a balanced number of industries
22:45:17  <hmmm> food processing plants
22:45:21  <hmmm> they grow on ice
22:45:42  <hmmm> and when the generator only places ice
22:45:50  <hmmm> in specific location of the map
22:45:55  <hmmm> almost all of them will be there
22:46:10  <hmmm> like if there's a mix of water and ice
22:46:32  <hmmm> argh, maybe with a screenshot
22:46:40  <hmmm> i suck at explaining things
22:48:31  *** Pixa [~pixa@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:48:32  <Sacro> So if someone builds an openttd patchpack, and the diff doesn't apply cleanly, is that a GPL violation?
22:48:53  <hmmm> okay 512x512 arctic terragenesis with hilly terrain and medium water
22:49:05  <hmmm> you will notice there's much more water than hills
22:49:09  <glx> it's all "random", but you can try to change sea level and snow line height to modify the result
22:49:22  <hmmm> and when there's hills, they're generally all located close to each other
22:49:29  <hmmm> hills with ice, that is
22:50:45  <glx> there's also variety distribution which should help for that
22:51:00  <hmmm> sn't that just for trees?
22:51:11  <glx>
22:53:25  <hmmm> OH!!! great!
22:53:30  <hmmm> exactly what I was looking for
22:53:36  <hmmm> ty
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22:54:57  <hmmm> strange, seems to be working the opposite way the wiki says
22:55:10  <hmmm> no variety will get more ice
22:55:21  <hmmm> high variety will get nearly no ice
22:55:40  <hmmm> that ice is however close to each other, guess i need to tweak a bit
22:59:29  <hmmm> the highest the variety, the least amount of ice I see on the map
22:59:40  <hmmm> so hmm...
22:59:45  <hmmm> what am i doing wrong
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23:02:35  <hmmm> you there?
23:02:49  <hmmm> well, no variety does it better
23:02:56  <hmmm> must see roughness
23:06:41  <hmmm> smoothness seems to do what I'm looking for slightly better, still depends on luck
23:07:11  <hmmm> very rought and no variety
23:07:24  <hmmm> let me test water level change
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23:12:30  <hmmm> looks like the setting I'm looking for is Smoothness after all
23:15:07  <hmmm> the best aproach for what i'm looking for is sea level medium, smoothness rough, terrain hilly, no variety
23:15:14  <hmmm> a good mix of everything
23:15:22  <hmmm> farm fields
23:15:22  <hmmm> ice
23:15:24  <hmmm> water
23:15:27  <hmmm> and normal land
23:15:43  <hmmm> ice is still a bit luck dependant
23:15:52  <hmmm> but that's the best approach
23:16:04  <hmmm> you there?
23:16:10  *** FLHerne [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:16:54  <hmmm> ^_^
23:18:44  <hmmm> something between Smooth and Rough
23:19:26  <hmmm> a not so smooth / not so rough, :p
23:19:32  <hmmm> if that could be set
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23:27:40  <hmmm> servers
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