Log for #openttd on 15th May 2013:
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03:03:06  <Samu> sup
03:03:53  <Samu> I'm hosting a game with AIs playing multiplayer
03:05:06  <Samu> if there is anyone interested to take a look
03:07:13  <Samu> and my testings
03:07:17  <Samu> here:
03:07:44  <Supercheese> That is a lot of AIs
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03:29:37  <Samu> i wanted to complete my 1024x1024 testings, but it really takes a lot of time
03:29:48  <Samu> sub tropical and toy land are missing
03:30:23  <Samu> that would be a total of 12 games
03:31:19  <Samu> I even planned 2048x2048, but guess I better not after all
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03:33:48  <Samu> hi st2
03:41:51  <Samu> who did BorkAI?
03:42:17  <Samu> it's too extreme with bus stops
03:42:34  <Samu> nearly every town road tile is a bus station
03:43:37  <Samu> I see more station labels than anything else
03:48:31  <Supercheese>
03:48:37  <Supercheese> marco.r is the author it seems
03:48:54  <Samu> it does great with trucks
04:07:25  <Samu> Terron is impressive to see
04:09:28  <Samu> and I believe it's still the best one dealing with ships
04:09:45  <Samu> but it's rare when it actually builds ships, don't know why
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04:19:58  <Samu> and it does transfers
04:20:33  <Samu> two industries producing the same cargo, will have one station feeding the other
04:22:23  <Samu> it just deals really bad with river tiles, and high leveled water
04:22:50  <Samu> rivers: none is best for Terron
04:29:38  <Samu> Otvi is really bad with ships
04:30:29  <Samu> the way it places docks is too far away
04:30:39  <Samu> to get the cargo delivered to it
04:31:52  <Samu> builds a ship service transporting goods from a refinery for example. The refinery actually produces goods, the ship actually is ready to transport goods, but the dock is in the wrong place
04:32:16  <Samu> no profit at all, nothing loaded on the ship
04:35:08  <Samu> some other ship routes just spell doom from the let go
04:35:29  <Samu> the distance tilewise is short between 2 docks
04:36:03  <Samu> but to get a ship to actually reach destination, it's just crazy, sometimes it needs to get around half the map
04:36:11  <Samu> ships get lost
04:36:16  <Samu> stuck somewhere
04:36:33  <Supercheese> this is all good feedback, you should post in the appropriate AI thread on the TT forums
04:36:42  <Supercheese> e.g. the one I linked above for BokrAI
04:36:45  <Supercheese> Bork*
04:36:54  <Samu> im unable to post on the forum
04:36:58  <Supercheese> oh?
04:37:00  <Samu> plz do it for me
04:37:11  <Supercheese> you can't register, or some other problem?
04:37:32  <Samu> i decided to stop foruming
04:37:41  <Samu> for my own sanity
04:37:47  <Supercheese> :S
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05:24:09  <Samu> just did a quick testing with Terron fastforwarding 1950-2050
05:24:20  <Samu> out of 37 ships
05:24:22  <Samu> 1 is lost
05:24:26  <Samu> that's remarkable
05:24:38  <Samu> in comparison with all other AIs that also use ships
05:25:40  <Samu> it's been lost for 49 years
05:26:36  <Samu> all others are profiting
05:29:20  <planetmaker> really, IRC is a bad place to note down these observations. Most likely it will completely miss those AI author's attention
05:44:14  <Supercheese> ^
05:46:55  <Samu> :(
05:48:49  <planetmaker> the forum audience certainly is a factor of 10 to 100 bigger than IRC, rather factor 100 than 10
05:49:09  <planetmaker> and it's a persistence medium contrary to IRC
05:49:15  <planetmaker> *persistant
05:50:37  <Supercheese> Come to the forum side... we have cookies. Browser cookies.
05:51:07  <Samu> must talk to orudge, he's got my account on hiatus
05:51:21  <Samu> he's gonna call me big names if I ask it back
05:51:25  <Samu> :(
05:51:48  <Supercheese> create a new one...?
05:51:53  <Supercheese> shouldn't be against too many rules :P
05:52:45  <Samu> no, it's the prejudice I'm creating towards myself
05:53:08  <Samu> I'm crazy
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05:56:45  <Samu> well, everytime I lose control
05:56:56  <Samu> I'm banned
05:57:21  <Samu> this time, I asked orudge a favor before things escalated on the forum
05:57:35  <Samu> and he accepted to lock my account access without banning
05:58:07  <Samu> i'm banned on several other forums
05:58:55  <Samu> don't think I was banned on tycoon forums
06:00:03  <planetmaker> you weren't
06:00:43  <Samu> banned on a tech forum
06:00:49  <Samu> banned on a racing game forum
06:00:54  <Samu> banned on sc2 forum
06:01:02  <Samu> oh god
06:01:17  <scshunt> what's the best way to watch openttd games?
06:01:20  <Samu> it's usually my point of view conflicting with others point of view
06:01:32  <planetmaker> scshunt, 'watch' in what way?
06:01:43  <planetmaker> start openttd and join a multiplayer game, I'd say
06:01:50  <planetmaker> Or one of diverse youtube videos
06:02:11  <planetmaker> but that'll teach less as you can't ask back :-)
06:02:47  <Samu> what was happening on that train topic was heading the direction of a ban
06:02:50  <scshunt> if I join a multiplayer game is it ok if I don't do anything for a while?
06:03:26  <planetmaker> scshunt, that of course depends on the server you join. But personally I don't see why it should matter. I would not mind on mine at all
06:03:32  <planetmaker> Rather I would recommend ;-)
06:03:39  <planetmaker> Join #openttdcoop.stable
06:04:01  <planetmaker> usually there's a few people and usually they're also helpful
06:04:17  <planetmaker> and you don't need to be afraid to try stuff either
06:05:24  <Samu> I have no idea what to do
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06:06:14  <Samu> I like to participate in discussions but I think i'm too religious about my points
06:07:51  <planetmaker> it's a matter of trying to see other points, too. And being able to leave matters disagreed upon
06:09:18  <scshunt> the key thing I like to remember is that even when I'm 100% sure about my point
06:09:27  <scshunt> the other person might well be too
06:09:47  <scshunt> so I try to avoid discussions where it looks like neither of us is going to convince the other
06:09:50  <planetmaker> yeah. There's your view. there's my view. And there's likely the 'right' view ;-)
06:10:02  <scshunt> planetmaker: yep. The right one is always mine btw
06:10:03  <planetmaker> (which of course is mine :-P)
06:10:03  <scshunt> ;)
06:10:05  <scshunt> hahaha
06:10:12  <planetmaker> :-)
06:13:50  <Samu> on the racing game forum, I was banned because... well I pretty much disagreed the resources wasted by the developers in bringing more cars to the game instead of fixing major game bugs and cheats almost everywhere
06:14:27  <Samu> good to see somehow that I was right to some degree
06:14:38  <Samu> the game is nearly unplayable now with so many cheats
06:15:07  <Samu> and the community players adhered to some kind of anti-cheating measure being added to the game
06:15:37  <Samu> devs are now more aware/concerned about this issue
06:16:44  <Samu> almost every image signature I see when I skim the forum is something humurous about bringing cheaters down
06:19:07  <Samu>
06:19:39  <Samu>
06:20:14  <Samu>
06:20:20  <Samu> just to point a few :p
06:20:32  <Samu>
06:20:38  <Samu> that forum where I was banned
06:22:56  <Supercheese>
06:22:58  <Supercheese> there's yer problem
06:23:03  <Supercheese> EA game
06:23:31  <Supercheese> I think they won "worst company of the year" award two years running :P
06:24:40  <Samu> they're bad, but the player community really gets what it deserves
06:24:52  <Samu> up until very recently
06:25:25  <perk11> EA is bad, they closed online SimCity
06:25:55  <Samu> sometimes the problem with EA is that they have no real direction
06:26:06  <Samu> but they want to please as many as possible
06:26:25  <Samu> and end up doing short-sighted decisions
06:26:42  <perk11> how's closing a game thousands of people play pleases anyone?
06:27:17  <Samu> or just keep the cash-flow when the emminence of something terribly wrong is about to happen, it's just luring on the horizon
06:27:23  <Supercheese> the most recent SimCity has just been a nightmare
06:27:29  <Samu> I heard
06:27:39  <Supercheese> for players and company alike
06:27:50  <Samu> but didn't follow much of it
06:27:55  <Samu> don't have the game
06:28:23  <perk11> well they close the Facebook version
06:28:51  <perk11> I didn't play it either, but on the official news page there were many pages of complaints
06:29:00  <Samu> they have a severe lack of coordination inside their company
06:29:27  <Samu> it's really blatant that their tech support is horrible beyond belief
06:30:17  <Samu> they outsource tech support
06:30:35  <Samu> nothing good happens out of that decision
06:30:55  <perk11> that's questionable
06:30:58  <Samu> the techie assisant is either inexperient with the game we're talking about
06:31:11  <perk11> outsourced tech support MAY answer 95% of the questions
06:31:40  <perk11> if they have the proper answers ofc
06:31:59  <Samu> given that EA has sooo many games, the chances to find someone who really understands the issue that is being complained is minimal
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06:33:43  <Samu> it's a lotto
06:33:54  <Samu> whenever someone calls tech support, it's just how it feels
06:39:42  <Samu> gotta go sleep
06:39:54  <Samu> cya
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07:28:51  <NGC3982> Morning.
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09:33:10  <oskari89> Does someone have the current sound effect specs (for in-grf implementation)?
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09:51:36  <Eddi|zuHause> how about checking the wiki?
09:52:17  <oskari89> I tried, didn't found specs
09:52:24  <__ln__> *find
10:37:55  <planetmaker> oskari89, what's unclear about the sound_effect callback?
10:41:03  <V453000> trains go moo when they poo
10:44:38  <planetmaker> do your trains really? :-)
10:45:11  <V453000> never say never
10:45:24  <planetmaker> it perfectly makes sense
10:45:27  <goodger> my train had to make an emergency stop in a tunnel once because a flock of sheep had wandered into it
10:45:41  <planetmaker> you could even replace() the smoke sprites...
10:46:23  <V453000> smoke -> moo?
10:46:35  <planetmaker> in terms of "poo"
10:46:44  <planetmaker> thus converting smoke to moo poop
10:47:04  <planetmaker> leaving traces on the track ;-)
10:47:29  <planetmaker> not sure how well that work. But would at least be a fun experiment
10:47:45  <planetmaker> *works
10:47:53  <V453000> meaning traces on the track are absolutely must have feature.
10:47:58  <V453000> cause slugs need slimey trails too
10:48:19  <planetmaker> smoke is not a single sprite as you may or may not know, but a sequence of sprites where the smoke expands
10:48:29  <planetmaker> you would have to draw that accordingly and match offsets
10:48:38  <V453000> oh
10:48:49  <V453000> you mean to have the "remains" coded as smoke
10:49:00  <V453000> and draw them on the actual rails
10:49:03  <planetmaker> but I fear it might overlay on the vehicle. And... might not work well with offsets... Not sure. You really would need to try whether it works
10:49:03  <V453000> damnnn
10:49:14  <V453000> oh yeah that too
10:49:14  <planetmaker> nah, not on rails. They know not about trains passing
10:49:14  <V453000> hm
10:50:07  <V453000> probably not an option then :s need slimey trails behind slugs
10:50:55  <planetmaker> well... smoke also trais... draw it such that it looks like slime in viewer's front of vehicle (not in vehicle's front)
10:51:14  <V453000> o_O
10:51:45  <planetmaker>
10:52:01  <planetmaker> ^ sprite numbers
10:52:13  <V453000> but the slug leaves the trail behind it so it needs to be in vehicle rear?
10:52:41  <planetmaker> uhm... well. Maybe it slimes only in the front? So that most part of it can glide on the slime?
10:53:15  <V453000> well sure but then the slime must remain after train passes for a little while on the track
10:53:17  <planetmaker> It's VERY limited what you can do with effect vehicles, I know
10:53:40  <planetmaker> it remains exactly as long as smoke remains. Not less. Not more
10:53:42  <V453000> myeah :)
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10:56:24  <oskari89> Planetmaker: I'm unsure if these specs on bottom of that are valid in current GRF-sound implementation
10:56:56  <planetmaker> ehm... maybe you should consulte the wiki with NewGRF specs?
10:57:01  <planetmaker> namely the NML part?
10:58:07  <planetmaker> Unless, of course, you want to write a *complete* sound set for OpenTTD
10:58:17  <oskari89> No, i don't
10:58:22  <oskari89> "If you intend to put sounds in GRF files, they must be 8-bit mono WAV files, PCM encoding, at either 11025 Hz or 22050 Hz, and they cannot exceed 64k."
10:58:43  <oskari89> That was DaleStan's post on Finnish Rail Infrastructure Thread
10:58:51  <oskari89> Is that valid anymore?
10:58:51  <planetmaker> possibly still true
10:58:56  <V453000> hm no need it on rails :( I guess there is no way to make effect appear below vehicles
10:59:19  <planetmaker> what about "wrong" offsets, V453000 ? but might glitch
11:00:12  <V453000> wrong offsets still are only "x distance from leading engine" which with variable train length is not really an option, and still the next train passing behind it would get overwritten by that
11:02:00  <V453000> also train 265km/h fast leaves smoke very far behind itself
11:02:03  <oskari89> Planetmaker: not much here:
11:03:38  <oskari89> "Sounds should be uploaded as 44,100Hz, 16-bit mono WAV or FLAC files" <- on the Sound Effects Replacement
11:04:01  <oskari89> Does it mean OpenTTD has ability to read those from NewGRF too? :P
11:04:15  <oskari89> And no size limit
11:07:40  <oskari89> Someone said (tm) on this channel that there isn't that limit anymore (at least i remember so)
11:12:31  <planetmaker> I don't know. In case of doubt: give it a try
11:18:19  <juzza1> seems to compile with 44100khz wavs
11:18:50  <__ln__> 44100khz = 44.1 MHz
11:19:20  <Eddi|zuHause> does it even check the content of the sound file, or just copy it verbatim?
11:23:26  <planetmaker> it might do the latter
11:23:35  <planetmaker> after all... what should it 'compile'?
11:42:22  <juzza1> 16-bit 44.1 khz wavs seem to work fine, i'll update the wiki
11:45:52  <tycoondemon> what about the lookahead part on the rails for a signal block and slime
11:49:31  <V453000> those are also at junctions and even the reserved track sprites would look weird :s
11:52:02  <tycoondemon> hmmm, well I mean the way it is drawn
11:52:15  <tycoondemon> you can modify it to look like slime
11:52:29  <tycoondemon> and then let be drawn at a look back
11:54:46  <V453000> you can modify it yes, but then the slime will also appear a lot in front of the train in any PBS pathing, also on junctions regardless if there is a train or nor, and it will also be in greyscale when in train reserving
11:55:02  <V453000> plus all of the tiles would look the same
11:57:28  <Eddi|zuHause> the path reservations are just recolourings of the normal track overlay sprites, i don't think you can replace them individually
11:59:34  <V453000> that is what I am saying :) overlay, junctions
12:07:24  <tycoondemon> hmm
12:11:42  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, (NewGRF) effect vehicles below the train are even desirable for "normal" train sets. like sparks of 3rd rail vehicles
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13:06:10  <V453000> I totally agree Eddi|zuHause :>
13:06:31  <V453000> in fact I do not understand how could a set exist without that
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13:06:51  <Eddi|zuHause> or andythenorth's everlasting issue with ship smoke
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13:47:54  <tycoondemon> may not too much eyecandy for openttd\
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14:16:36  <juzza1> can someone remove the older finnish trainset from bananas
14:17:03  <juzza1> there was a mistake in the readme, i replaced the older with a new version, somehow it got same Unique ID and now the donwloading is messed up
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14:18:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, only the GRF content is considered for unique id
14:19:58  <juzza1> when downloading, the readme is still the old one, at least for me
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14:22:37  <planetmaker> juzza1: you need to create a new version for your newgrf
14:22:52  <planetmaker> and bundle it with a new readme
14:23:09  <planetmaker> don't you update the newgrf's version anyway...?
14:24:01  <juzza1> well i wanted to keep the same version Bananas version, since there was only a minor error in the name of the grf and readme
14:24:09  <juzza1> -one version
14:24:57  <planetmaker> minor error fix = change = new version. Just increase the version by a minor step
14:25:04  <juzza1> ok
14:25:05  <planetmaker> or is the readme not "part" of the grf?
14:25:14  <planetmaker> openttd also changes for each translation
14:25:20  <planetmaker> it's also minor
14:25:26  <planetmaker> and it's good practise
14:25:37  <planetmaker> how could otherwise anyone know that there's something new, if it's called the same?
14:26:39  <juzza1> the "real" version would be updated anyways, it was just the "name" version (in this case 0.5.0) which i wanted to keep the same
14:26:46  <juzza1> or revision, rather
14:27:15  <planetmaker> if you change the "real" version, that is within the grf as you should, the unique ID would have changed and you would not have seen that error
14:28:56  <juzza1> how is it even possible then to have two Finnish Trainsets with identical version and Unique ID in my banans manager
14:29:19  <juzza1> and the newer one had different grf, but got the same Unique ID
14:29:46  <planetmaker> how do you make releases? Don't you commit a tag to the repository?
14:32:21  <juzza1> ill just start from the beginning
14:32:28  <juzza1> i never made any releases before
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14:37:12  <planetmaker> juzza1: and the DevZone can (and will) build that version as you tagged it
14:37:36  <planetmaker> when it built that, you can just download the zip from there, it includes readme, license, changelog as in the repo, all conveniently bundled
14:37:42  <planetmaker> and just upload that zip to bananas
14:37:48  <planetmaker> and it will always be unique :-)
14:39:08  <planetmaker> uh... I wonder whether release builds are enabled...
14:40:45  <planetmaker> yes, they are. It might just take a bit time till it's built
14:42:18  <juzza1> yea im using that same makefile on my pc to build, so it should be the same
14:42:36  <planetmaker> only if you updated to the tag
14:42:57  <planetmaker> so... not without you doing that :-)
14:43:13  <planetmaker> and don't forget to update to tip afterwards again, or you'll have to merge :-)
14:43:30  <planetmaker> hg up 0.5.1
14:43:37  <planetmaker> tortoise surely has an equivalent button
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14:50:48  <Pulec> where is setting for realistic acceleration for trains
14:50:58  <Pulec> i cant seem to find it in latest openttd
14:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> checked that you did not filter for "basic" settings only?
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14:57:51  <alluke> juzza
14:58:00  <alluke> shouldnt no be blue instead of green?
14:58:34  <alluke> found this picture
14:58:35  <alluke>
14:59:26  <Pulec> oh thats new Eddi|zuHause thx
15:03:56  <alluke> and why is ed called ic2 coach
15:04:02  <alluke> theyre used in normal ic trains too
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15:23:46  <oskari89> Alluke: It is IC2 to differ it from "normal" IC coaches
15:24:16  <alluke> aint the word "doubledecker" enough for that?
15:25:09  <oskari89> Alluke: Try the newest version, it is fixed on that :P
15:25:25  <oskari89> On bananas you will find Finnish Trainset 0.5.2
15:26:00  <alluke> wow
15:26:02  <alluke> a release
15:27:45  <V453000> same version as nuts :D
15:27:53  <juzza1> only took a decade
15:28:03  <alluke> 12 long years
15:29:46  <tycoondemon> can you update trainsets in savegames?
15:29:54  <tycoondemon> with older versions allready applied?
15:30:31  <alluke> yes
15:31:00  <alluke> ive had fts in my game from r46 till the current release
15:31:27  <alluke> btw why doesnt flirt have red rear lights?
15:32:01  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that option has been disabled
15:32:37  <alluke> you mean modding grfs in-game?
15:32:50  <oskari89> Yes, without player being developer :P
15:32:55  <alluke> hah
15:33:02  <alluke> good thing i am :P
15:33:44  <oskari89> Backwards compability is broken at versio r130 though at current release
15:33:47  <Pulec> is there some "plugin" that would allow passengers from station A exit the train in the station F?
15:33:51  <oskari89> Can't be guaranteed
15:34:00  <Pulec> because all passengers exit in station B, and that is just meh
15:34:01  <oskari89> *versuin
15:34:05  <oskari89> *version
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15:35:19  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no "plugin" like that. or depending how far you define the word "plugin", yes, there is a "plugin" like that.
15:36:32  <Pulec> newgrf or somethin?
15:36:40  <Pulec> any name pls?
15:36:59  <alluke> huh
15:37:23  <alluke> make train load in station a and unload in station f?
15:37:54  <Eddi|zuHause> since i'm feeling generous today:
15:38:29  <Eddi|zuHause> note that it's not a "plugin" in any kind of sense of the word. it's a full-grown fork. an independent version of openttd
15:39:05  <Eddi|zuHause> and as such, it doesn't offer the same kind of version-cross-compatibility as you are used to
15:39:31  <Eddi|zuHause> so a game started with this version can only be finished with the exact same version, no updates, no going back.
15:39:35  <Eddi|zuHause> you have been warned!
15:40:08  <tycoondemon> :S
15:40:17  <tycoondemon> save games cant be converted
15:41:18  <V453000> [do not use stupid trash like cargodist] :)
15:48:25  <alluke> trash?
15:48:30  <alluke> i think cargodist is great
15:49:30  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000 hates everything that is great, it's an honour to be hated by V453000 :)
15:49:31  <V453000> replacing junctions with stations is a totally great indeed
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15:52:26  <V453000> sure sure
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16:16:52  <FLHerne> V453000: Of course it is. An excess of efficient junctions looks silly, and using flat junctions makes it hard to carry all the traffic
16:17:11  * FLHerne tends to use stations instead of flyovers :P
16:18:25  <alluke> realistic gameplay ftw
16:18:34  <tycoondemon> how do you replace junctnios with stations :S
16:19:00  <planetmaker> delete + build?
16:20:22  <tycoondemon> but how would a tsation funtyction like a junctieon?
16:20:40  <V453000> by redistributing cargo?
16:21:01  <FLHerne> tycoondemon: Transfer cargo between routes without interworking trains
16:21:29  <Pinkbeast> There's nothing stopping you doing that with transfer orders in a non-cargod*st world
16:21:56  <V453000> the ideal solution to a yacd game is build only a web of station between each other, not a single junction because those are needless complication, the cargo distribution is so automatic that the station is the ultimate solution
16:22:14  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: Yeah, but for bi-directional things (pax/mail) CDist makes it much better
16:22:47  <FLHerne> In trunk OTTD, you get cargo going backwards with bi-directional transfers
16:24:28  <Pinkbeast> Fair point, although I still think the objection that in a cargod*st world you can build absurd layouts is ridiculous - in a non-cargod*st world you can build absurd layouts
16:25:14  <alluke> i use the cardodist only for pax and mail
16:25:18  <alluke> manual for freight
16:26:17  <V453000> I wasnt saying anything about absurd layouts nor do I think they are related to cargodist
16:26:30  <tycoondemon> ah transfer stations
16:26:32  <tycoondemon> ok
16:26:42  <tycoondemon> well I like the transfer system
16:26:46  <tycoondemon> but only up to a point
16:26:48  <Pinkbeast> I don't like cargodist for most freight, it tends to produce suspension-of-disbelief difficulties like a train carefully shuffling some lumps of coal from A to B so it can shuffle some other lumps of coal from B to A (and which end does it full load at?)
16:26:50  <V453000> all I am saying is that the concept of making station-station web the only option which makes sense, is not a good patch
16:27:11  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: That actually happens in real life ;-)
16:27:19  <tycoondemon> I can agree with V
16:27:21  <Pinkbeast> V453: It's not the "only option which makes sense" - this is just your usual problem that you think everyone plays the game exactly how you do.
16:27:55  <FLHerne> Powerstations 'blend' different types of coal from different sources, so there actually are services that transport coal in both directions
16:28:15  <planetmaker> how does that make sense, FLHerne ?
16:28:28  <FLHerne> planetmaker: The last bit?
16:28:30  <Pinkbeast> FLH: I know, but in the OTTD world coal is not differentiated.
16:28:42  <V453000> it is the only logical option caused by the distribution, of course that means I am wrong
16:28:46  <Pinkbeast> ... and it is, as observed, a very awkward fit with the orders system
16:29:34  <planetmaker> the implication of your statement. "power plants use different coal sources" -> "coal is transported somewhere two-ways"
16:29:37  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: How do you know? You can't tell holidaymakers from commuters (except ECS), but I still imagine there being such
16:30:11  <Pinkbeast> planet: It certainly implies that it is possible that coal will be transported two ways
16:30:13  <tycoondemon> more complexity is more fun
16:30:14  <FLHerne> planetmaker: At least in the UK, there are services that move coal in both directions between two ports or power stations
16:30:24  <tycoondemon> we need much more carcos and such
16:30:50  <FLHerne> planetmaker: To get the correct ratio of different types of coal in each place
16:31:19  <FLHerne> That happens with wood too, actually
16:31:29  <Pinkbeast> FLH: I see what you're saying, but for my part, it too much exposes the "This coal is from Africa, I will pay a lot for it" thing, where apparently fungible cargo is transported much further than is necessary.
16:31:49  <Pinkbeast> I can live with it for things like FIRS *supplies where presumably each factory makes something different
16:32:23  <planetmaker> really? Hm, for the sake of exhause or so... might actually make sense. Never thought that it was done that large scale
16:32:27  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: Different types of coal and wood *are* different though
16:32:53  <frosch123> V453000: maybe cdist is only a stepping stone for a more interesting pax generation mechanic :p
16:33:02  <FLHerne> e.g. Almost all UK preserved railways use either Welsh or Polish coal, but not Scottish
16:33:41  <Pinkbeast> FLH: I'm not arguing they're not; I'm just saying, personally, I find it unsatisfying - and I think the incompatibility with the usual orders mechanic is an issue
16:33:46  <planetmaker> oh, quak :-)
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16:33:59  <frosch123> moin :p
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16:34:30  <Eddi|zuHause> <V453000> the ideal solution to a yacd game is build only a web of station between each other, not a single junction because those are needless complication, the cargo distribution is so automatic that the station is the ultimate solution <-- that is only the best solution if you leave out loading times, etc.
16:35:27  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: What incompatibility with the orders mechanic?
16:35:44  <Pinkbeast> FLH: Which end of a bidirectonal route do the trains full load at?
16:35:50  <Pinkbeast> *bidirectional
16:36:06  <V453000> Eddi consider that stations also take care of: 1. "local destinations", 2. Any destination which is added when industry increases production, 3. literally any destination that the network is connected to, completely automatically. No new train orders, no new groups, only necessary to have all connected stations between their neighbour.
16:36:13  <V453000> loading times and total travel time is not really important
16:36:13  <FLHerne> The start of whichever direction carries more cargo...?
16:36:27  <Pinkbeast> Also in a non-cargod*st game it's quite handy to leave out junctions and just build a mass of independent producer-consumer lines.
16:36:52  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: That works perfectly well WITH CDist, too
16:37:05  <Pinkbeast> FLH: Which as industry production changes may change, or when cargodist goes into its usual feedback issues...
16:37:27  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: I don't find it changes unpredictably very often
16:37:53  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: the main difference is that you *MUST* carry all cargo on all links, otherwise you get a bottleneck somewhere and your profit plummets as the cargo goes in circles without reaching its destination
16:38:02  <FLHerne> Of course, if I add a new source or destination of [cargo], I have to check on things
16:38:06  <Eddi|zuHause> in trunk, you can just ignore excess passengers
16:38:14  <V453000> sure, but that is trivial to maintain
16:38:17  <Pinkbeast> In particular cargodist will notice that the link capacity is the same in both directions and try to send the same amount of cargo down it, which in a complex network will mean the extra-cargo end fluctuates nastily
16:38:37  <Eddi|zuHause> and you have to adjust your tram/bus/local network as the town expands
16:38:57  <Eddi|zuHause> (assuming you don't "cheat" by connecting stations on opposite sides of the town)
16:39:10  <V453000> well I was talking about cargo in this case, but sure, passengers work about the same way
16:39:17  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: If it actually manages that (it doesn't often) you have half the trains full-load at one end and half at the other ;-)
16:39:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and if you try to use full load on the transfer stations, you need to adjust capacities in a way that you won't sit there with 99% loaded
16:40:01  <Pinkbeast> At any given time, then, one end has trains accumulating waiting for full loads...
16:41:01  <Eddi|zuHause> less a problem with passengers, more with cargo
16:41:12  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: And?
16:41:27  <FLHerne> You have to wait for full loads in trunk, too...
16:41:33  <alluke> planertmaker: just noticed, why do swedish rails have grey gravel on the sides bbut brown between the sleepers?
16:41:57  <Pinkbeast> FLH: The platforms fill. Now the trains that will full load at the other end can't get in (unless you're going to use waypoints to split them up or something)...
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16:45:52  <planetmaker> it has brown everywhere. but it has cable lines left and right
16:47:09  <planetmaker> <--- look closely, Alice3
16:47:14  <planetmaker> grr... alluke ^
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16:47:30  <alluke> whos alice :P
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16:47:52  <planetmaker> "who the f*** is Alice" ;-)
16:48:28  <alluke> are in in wonderland about her? :P
16:48:39  <alluke> are you*
16:48:41  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: In the specific case where the balance of cargo is changing frequently, you shouldn't get _all_ the trains in one direction piled up at the end...
16:49:08  <FLHerne> If you do, you don't need trains full-loading at that end anyway
16:49:32  <Pinkbeast> FLH: At any given time, trains are piling up at one end. I mistrust any arrangement where trains that full-load share platforms with trains that don't.
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16:51:55  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: Then you have holding sidings for empty trains before the loading platforms, or simply more platforms than trains?
16:52:04  <FLHerne> The latter is ugly, though
16:52:32  <Pinkbeast> It also might be a very large number.
16:52:38  <alluke> lol
16:52:46  <alluke> whata bout looooong trains?
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16:53:33  <Pinkbeast> I think eventually you'd end up with 4 tracks - completely independent infrastructure for the two directions in the link
16:54:25  <alluke> 6x10 station is good for huge industries
16:54:32  <planetmaker> alluke, I was more thinking of
16:55:09  <alluke> lol
16:55:19  <planetmaker> (and that's why I put it into quotes)
16:55:44  <alluke> pretty good cover
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16:55:51  <planetmaker> cover?
16:56:08  <alluke> aint that dutch
16:56:10  <alluke> read the comments
16:56:14  <Pinkbeast> 10 tiles is about as long as I make things, that's about what an UKRS 9F can move uphill with x3 cargo weight
16:56:23  <alluke> the original song doesnt have the who the uck is alice shouts
16:56:29  <alluke> ukrs
16:56:31  <alluke> bitch please
16:56:34  <alluke> use realistic stuff
16:57:08  <planetmaker> right, indeed, they're not the original. But they're who made the song popular
16:57:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i think 15 tiles was the longest i built
16:57:48  <alluke> modern hoppers load 60-70 tons
16:58:03  <V453000> yeah or 12459 tons
16:58:05  <V453000> great for the game
16:58:14  <alluke> in ukrs the biggest one loads 25 tons thats closer to 30s stuff
16:58:49  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: Ooh, another UKRS user :-)
16:59:28  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: I don't think I've ever ended up with separate tracks
16:59:46  <alluke> with fts i can build 10 tile coal train that loads 1232 tons
16:59:51  <FLHerne> I have tried quite a lot of different order/station/layout options, thoug
16:59:57  <alluke> 884t empty weight
17:00:07  <alluke> 3 locos
17:00:23  <Pinkbeast> FLH: Always. Although the trouble these days is remembering it's a long way from the 2-2-2 Planet to anything that can move more than 3 pieces of cheese
17:01:02  <Pinkbeast> *2-2-0, bother
17:01:16  <V453000> 666
17:01:20  <alluke> 69
17:01:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought 2-2-2 was the patentee
17:01:27  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: Ah, I've been starting in 1920 recently
17:01:48  <FLHerne> I used to start in 1850/70, but stopped bothering :P
17:01:52  <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe i played railroad tycoon too long ago
17:03:02  <Pinkbeast> FLH: Last time I did a proper game, I started with EGRVTS horse trams before the invention of the locomotive, which was... different.
17:03:18  <FLHerne> Pinkbeast: AARGH!
17:03:58  <FLHerne> I tried starting in 1800 with Sailing Ships a couple of times, but didn't get very far before I got bored
17:05:13  <Pinkbeast> I used Sailing Ships as well, but their vast expense means they tend to lose money on all but carefully selected routes.
17:05:31  <Pinkbeast> Part of the trouble is that cargo payment rates are a poor fit with an era when all transport is very slow
17:07:13  <Pinkbeast> Also what I really wanted was canal boats
17:08:02  <V453000> wetrails? :>
17:10:09  <FLHerne> NOOOOOO!
17:11:21  <V453000> k :<
17:11:51  <alluke> real boats are more fun
17:12:10  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, openttd knows different ship speeds for canals and oceans. so it's really just a matter of newgrf
17:12:40  <planetmaker> FISH once had a few iirc... not sure it still has
17:12:52  <Pinkbeast> planet: I know. All I'm saying is, when I was starting pre-locomotive with Sailing Ships and horse trams, there weren't any sensible canal boats available
17:13:23  <alluke> imma kick pikkaind from my game
17:13:35  <alluke> completely fed up with the way they behave
17:14:14  <FLHerne> planetmaker: It has :-)
17:14:27  <FLHerne> And very nice they are too, but not in 1800
17:14:39  <FLHerne> Horse-canal-boats! :D
17:15:19  <planetmaker> :-) feasible to make actually... canals have a border... but... not feasible to make glitch free on open water
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17:17:17  <alluke> is it possible to play with ogfx+ industries and oe or two ecs vectors?
17:20:10  <planetmaker> no. Nor will it be
17:21:46  <V453000> lol
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17:23:12  <planetmaker> the request makes sense. If you know not how NewGRFs work and that industry IDs and cargo IDs are not NewGRF independent and that such things would result in things like I've seen recently where some guy combined newcargos with ECS
17:23:23  <planetmaker> Result he had two times food.
17:23:38  <planetmaker> Thus he shipped food to where it was required. But it was the wrong food
17:23:46  <V453000> XD
17:23:47  <V453000> nice
17:24:39  <alluke> rofl
17:24:43  <alluke> wrong food :P
17:25:01  <planetmaker> yes. your question would result in the exact same thing, alluke
17:25:24  <planetmaker> if either NewGRF wouldn't say "go, don't try to combine us with the other"
17:26:16  <alluke> damn, ecs doesnt have parameter to turn off building restrictions
17:26:32  <planetmaker> and things like a farm growing steel and chemicals on the fields while requiring tourists instead of fertilizer or so
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17:27:32  <planetmaker> :D
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17:28:03  <alluke> oopsie daisy
17:28:18  <alluke> but tourists could be replaced with slaves :D
17:28:31  <planetmaker> anyway... game of thrones evening. see you later :D
17:28:58  <oskari89> Alluke: No Red Alert 2 or Yuri's Revenge here :D
17:29:10  <alluke> what?
17:29:39  <oskari89> Slaves did remind of Yuri's Revenge
17:29:45  <alluke> whats that
17:29:54  <alluke> if theyre games i havent played either
17:30:11  <oskari89>
17:30:28  <alluke> right
17:30:40  <oskari89> Beware, it's very addictive
17:30:48  <alluke> but imagine: transporting slaves from cities to the fields :P
17:31:36  <alluke> grain could be replaced with cocaine or opium
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17:45:38  <Wolf01> evenink
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17:47:28  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25245 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2013-05-15 17:47:18 UTC)
17:47:29  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:47:30  <DorpsGek> czech - 1 changes by micropro_cz
17:47:31  <DorpsGek> russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:47:32  <DorpsGek> gaelic - 47 changes by GunChleoc
17:47:33  <DorpsGek> slovak - 1 changes by micropro_cz
17:47:41  <Alberth> oddink mr Wolf01
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17:59:31  <FLHerne> How did I break OTTD enough to get 140 lines of compile errors!?
17:59:47  * FLHerne is clearly a very successful idiot :D
18:01:57  <HellTiger> days back i had searched via apt-file cause i never found the real packages for some games.
18:02:21  <frosch123> FLHerne: when using templates you have a decent chance for a single error taking 140 lines of output :p
18:04:24  <Alberth> deleting a { or a ;  works also great for getting many errors :)
18:04:57  <FLHerne> I think I forgot to #include some stuff, mostly seems to be 'where did you pull that function from?'
18:04:59  <Alberth> for bonus errors, also remove a }
18:07:04  <Wolf01> and for more bonus runtime errors forget the () on conditionals
18:07:55  <Alberth> using = instead of == also works great for spending an hour staring at a single line of code
18:08:59  *** DDR [] has joined #openttd
18:10:23  <Wolf01> and == instead of === could be more nasty when you really can't figure out why 1 === 1 doesn't work
18:10:44  <Wolf01> or when 1 == '1' should not work
18:12:29  <NGC3982> FLHerne: :D
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18:21:30  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, the clouds go backwards
18:21:50  <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: What clouds?
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18:21:57  <Alberth> they travel in time!
18:26:31  <Eddi|zuHause> xkcd misses one of the most important catchphrases: "same procedure as every year"
18:41:36  <alluke> juzza1: i think i found a bug
18:46:00  <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: it would be helpful if you actually told what you think the bug is
18:46:15  <alluke> cant you see that yourself
18:46:19  <Eddi|zuHause> no
18:46:47  <alluke> fully loaded wagons show half loaded (steel?) sprites
18:47:11  <juzza1> fixed
18:47:14  <juzza1> ty
18:47:39  <alluke> wow that was fast
18:48:18  <frosch123> maybe it was a teaser bug
18:48:41  <frosch123> some bug you add on purpose, to make someone happy who is searching for them
18:48:50  <frosch123> and then impress him by fixing it even faster
18:49:07  <juzza1> yep :)
18:50:16  <alluke> :D
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19:00:15  <alluke> is there a way to turn off aa from photoshop text
19:01:50  *** roadt__ [~roadt@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:02:17  <juzza1> select "none" from the menu next to the text aligment buttons
19:03:31  <juzza1> with the type tool selected
19:04:21  <alluke> thx
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19:20:49  <alluke> attempted to draw a low level asphalt platform
19:20:51  <alluke> 70s style
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19:55:55  <oskari89> Alluke: Post it to FRISS thread
19:56:13  <alluke> ill show it to you first
19:56:18  <alluke> its just a hack after all
19:56:41  <alluke>
19:56:56  <oskari89> Not bad at all
19:57:09  <alluke> slapped friss basetile onto dutch platform and drew a stripe
19:57:14  <alluke> and lowered it by 1px
19:57:28  <oskari89> :)
19:57:42  <oskari89> Seems good
19:57:44  <alluke> the problem is to make the stripe look good and narrow
19:57:58  <alluke> cant use yellow only because it gets too fat
19:58:22  <oskari89> It's kind of good as it is
19:58:26  <oskari89> (now)
19:58:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the "joy" of pixel art: use completely different colours that kinda blend into each other on higher distances
19:59:21  <alluke> how would you belnd yellow and black
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20:04:14  <Supercheese> does anybody happen to know what angle autogyros cruise at? nose level with horizon? nose down like helicopters?
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20:21:04  <juzza1> i would say nose level
20:22:46  <juzza1> but don't go fly one with my instructions
20:22:54  <Supercheese> :P
20:23:29  <alluke> juzza
20:23:56  <alluke> are dr16 and sr1/2 the only locos that are able to provide 1500v power?
20:25:25  <juzza1> i've really no idea, because i basically knew nothing about finnish trains before i started to create the code for the set... and i still dont know much
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20:25:58  <alluke> ok
20:26:22  <juzza1> Supercheese: kinda makes sense if it flew level, because its almost like a plane with a spinning wing
20:26:46  <Supercheese> Yeah, I'll go for level flight, these youtube videos seem to indicate that too
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20:29:11  <Supercheese> But it seems the Rotodyne has to have a brief period of nose-down flight to build airspeed, then it transitions to level autogyro flight
20:29:27  <Supercheese> crazy hybrid gyrocopter
20:32:43  <juzza1> interesting concept
20:33:00  <Supercheese> "compound gyroplane"
20:33:39  <Supercheese> coming soon to an OTTD near you ;)
20:34:41  <juzza1> nice :)
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20:43:27  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:07:23  <frosch123> night
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22:44:16  <FLHerne> It seems that MHL breaks OGFX+ Landscape's snowline-height settings
22:47:18  <FLHerne> Regardless of what's set, the snowline height is somewhere >50
22:48:05  <FLHerne> I wonder if it's 255-(15-setting)?
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22:53:29  <FLHerne> No, both of my above points are wrong
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22:57:03  <FLHerne> That's weird, now it's just setting * 32
22:57:12  <FLHerne> s/32/16/
22:57:31  <FLHerne> Which makes much more sense, but I'm sure it wasn't like that before
22:57:37  <FLHerne> Maybe I'm just tired
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23:26:16  <Eddi|zuHause> you're not making any sense at all
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23:30:58  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Yep. Definitely tired then :P
23:31:59  <FLHerne> An*y
23:33:55  <FLHerne> Anyway, I have CDist, LargeMaps, MHL and some other stuff working with latest trunk now. :-)
23:34:21  <FLHerne> So I can go to bed and quit with the nonsensical gibbering :D
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