Log for #openttd on 18th May 2013:
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00:50:08  <scshunt> ok, so in a lot of the strategy articles I've seen, I haven't really seen a simple "linear accelerator" design where a low-traffic has signals timed such that the merge occurs only when space is available at full speed
00:50:39  <scshunt> (as a priority system)
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01:20:14  <Eddi|zuHause> just make the priority gap long enough
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01:50:13  <scshunt> I suppose
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07:28:26  <Alberth> moin
07:28:41  <planetmaker> moin Alberth
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08:27:10  <Mailaender> Do you mind if we ( make use of your OpenGFX sprites?
08:28:17  <planetmaker> Mailaender, the set and the sprites are freely available in accordance to their license. Which is GPL v2
08:29:16  <planetmaker> Thus as long as that is adhered to, we of course do not mind
08:29:26  <Mailaender> is it GPL v2 or later (because we are GPL v3)
08:30:35  <planetmaker> I fear it's GPL v2.
08:30:51  <planetmaker> I would not mind to relicense my contributions under GPL v3 either.
08:31:12  <planetmaker> Most sprites are by Zephyris, who would need asking the same. I'm sure he'd agree, too
08:31:55  <planetmaker> do you have any sprites in particular you look at?
08:32:45  <Alberth> game looks pretty
08:33:16  <Mailaender> buildings at first I guess although Scott also planned on adding trains (as he is a C&C Generals addict)
08:33:42  <planetmaker> aye
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08:34:05  <Wolf01> o/
08:34:15  <Mailaender> okay, we will try if it fits at all first
08:34:46  <Mailaender> artwork style is probably different
08:35:00  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
08:35:05  <planetmaker> yes, also many buildings are by Zephyris, though not all. OpenGFX itself has too many contributors to add the "or any later version" - which I actually would like to see. Oh well
08:35:51  <planetmaker> your game looks quite interesting indeed
08:37:16  <Mailaender> we might share the same target group as someone from this community spammed an OpenTTD link in our subreddit :)
08:37:56  <planetmaker> :-)
08:38:02  <Mailaender> in fact I am a big Transport Tycoon fan myself and like the constructive non-violent approach to gaming a little more than the satirical WW2 scenario
08:38:23  <planetmaker> then you're working on the wrong game :-P
08:38:33  <Mailaender> always have the Emergency Services mod idea for OpenRA in mind where you don't kill, but rescue everyone
08:38:52  <Alberth> :)
08:39:08  <Mailaender> but I am bad at pixeling fire trucks etc.
08:39:37  <planetmaker> Pixel stuff is an art... takes a lot of patience
08:39:42  <Alberth> I played Knights and Merchants in the past, where you build a city and then conqueror the world. I usually stopped after building a city :)
08:39:51  <planetmaker> :D
08:40:13  <Mailaender> yeah, it is stupid that 90% of all games have war as the final goal
08:40:28  <Alberth> humans are a violent race
08:40:37  <Alberth> also, people are highly competitive
08:41:09  <Mailaender> OpenTTD proved the point that you can play construction games competitively
08:41:11  <Alberth> ie playing without a clear goal is next to impossible, especially if it does not involve winning from others
08:41:48  <Alberth> people do literally everything to win, even play dirty
08:41:54  <Mailaender> I was recommending OpenTTD when a concerned mom asked me what the games his sone was playing all about.
08:41:55  <planetmaker> yes... took us long to get goals into the game :-)
08:42:12  <Wolf01> then I'm the only one which plays on defense?
08:42:38  <Alberth> Wolf01: nah, I am with you :)
08:42:56  <planetmaker> I'm more a castle-keeper than a conqueror, too
08:43:22  <Alberth> there are also people playing constructively, in co-op mode
08:43:24  <planetmaker> I'm not a McArthur
08:43:54  <Mailaender> in fact I don't really play OpenRA a lot (I suck at it.) but currently hack new fileformats in, so I was playing some kind of RTS construction game when crafting the Dune 2000 mod :)
08:44:10  <Alberth> look at if you want to see what insane things you can do when playing with each other :p
08:44:17  <planetmaker> :D
08:44:37  <planetmaker> http://www.openttdcoop.ORG/wiki/PublicServer:Archive | | - the archives of madness
08:44:45  <Alberth> :D
08:45:46  <planetmaker> Mailaender, so you're playing the meta-game ;-)
08:45:50  <Mailaender> :)
08:45:57  <Mailaender> I would like to see Open Rollercoaster Tycoon. Loved that one, too.
08:46:06  <planetmaker> FreeRCT ftw
08:46:15  <planetmaker> check it out
08:46:23  <Alberth> is the Dune 2K mod just a change in graphics, or does it also have the missions?
08:46:54  <Alberth> (although I also play that game more as a builder than as a warrior :) )
08:47:11  <planetmaker> :-)
08:47:16  <Mailaender> We currently don't really support triggers, there are some hard-coded co-op missions for Red Alert. We are thinking about adding LUA scripting, but it is hard to make that secure.
08:47:18  <Wolf01> I like playing RTS/FPS/RPG games, but I found that most of the time I enjoy staring at overlooks, pay attention to details, play with the AI like when you find a spider trapped on a jar and helping it coming out with a string or something
08:47:28  <planetmaker> I build a castle. And when the unit limit is reached I try to strike down my enemies there
08:48:06  <Alberth> yeah, they make life interesting in harrassing you to build your city, mostly
08:48:29  <Alberth> by the time you're finished building, crushing them is quite trivial
08:48:32  <planetmaker> on some maps you can build your castle towards the enemy. Fun times
08:48:42  <Alberth> :D
08:48:43  <planetmaker> when your rocket towers and in range of their castle defences :-)
08:49:04  <Alberth> I never quite managed to make that live long enough :)
08:49:27  <planetmaker> with a step-by-step approach that works
08:49:42  <planetmaker> like bring also the tanks to defend the tower
08:49:51  <planetmaker> and... build more towers
08:49:53  <planetmaker> :D
08:50:37  <Alberth> I did have one miraculous escape once; I got run over, and the enemy was everywhere. I just had a rocket (forgot its name), guessed where the enemy would be in my base in some time, and aimed the rocket at them, right on top of my buildings
08:50:43  <Alberth> it even worked :D
08:51:04  <planetmaker> :-)
08:51:17  <Alberth> they were exactly where I thought :)
08:51:32  <planetmaker> that's a nice thing
08:51:41  <Alberth> so I could then fight them, and reclaim my territory :)
08:52:02  <Mailaender> is the current way to create campaigns (yes this is horrible)
08:52:39  <Mailaender> although RA95.exe triggers are braindead, too
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08:53:13  <planetmaker> :-)
08:53:15  * Alberth thinks "add a custom language"
08:53:23  <planetmaker> haha :-)
08:53:30  <planetmaker> MrTranslator hath spoken
08:53:48  <Mailaender> yes, Scott thought about adding a C# subset and load that from YAML files
08:54:01  <Alberth> It's worse, I design and build new languages as work :)
08:54:02  <Mailaender> not sure if this will be a success.. our community is mostly very non-technical
08:54:27  <planetmaker> yeah... known problem
08:54:45  <Alberth> then lua is not going to be a nice solution either, perhaps
08:55:35  <planetmaker> is our squirrel better then?
08:55:50  <planetmaker> our newgrf language certainly isn't :-)
08:56:02  <Mailaender> or people should get their ass up and stop the "I am not a coder, won't even try." approach. I am also just a chemist and C# was very easy to learn. Although I have to admit that programming games is quite task I underestimated. Hard to predict unwanted features aka bugs you introduce with every change.
08:56:02  <Alberth> I think you should first decide what you want to write down, ie how to express the mission in text
08:56:09  <planetmaker> though NML goes a long way meanwhile
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08:56:47  <planetmaker> oh, sounds all so very familiar, Mailaender ;-)
08:58:11  <planetmaker> with s/chemist/physicist/ ;-)
08:58:28  <planetmaker> and s/C#/C++/
08:58:53  <Alberth> not sure about the "easy" part then :D
08:58:58  <planetmaker> :-)
08:59:23  <Mailaender> we also have an astrophysicist on board who currently renovates our coordinate system for optional isometry we need for Tiberian Sun and Red Alert 2 which is planned soon
09:00:11  <Alberth> Mailaender: basically it comes down to whether people have sufficient interest to pick up the problem and work at it
09:00:44  <Alberth> 26 different authors is quite nice, imho
09:00:52  <planetmaker> @ports
09:00:52  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
09:01:01  <Mailaender> I am not the only newbie contributer. :)
09:01:53  <Alberth> it helps a LOT if people can actually play the game
09:01:58  <Mailaender> well I am already at the stage where I shake my head about the code I produced some months ago "what was I thinking?" so this is probably a good sign that I am making some progress :P
09:02:14  <Alberth> oh definitely
09:02:27  <planetmaker> :-)
09:03:40  <Alberth> it's also a shift in goal, ie first you code some basics, then you move on to the next more complicated target, and you find what you want does not fit in the current code
09:04:46  <Mailaender> the OpenRA policy is to add # TODO: comments with lot's of swearing to warn others about hacks
09:05:38  <Mailaender> the sad thing is that whenever I advertise the game in Linux communities I get Mono FUD in response. :/
09:06:46  <Alberth> ie, like I am now rewriting the entire  storage of world entities, to make roller coasters fit in the FreeRCT world :)
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09:07:57  <Mailaender> it is hard to predict everything at first
09:08:06  <Alberth> I was wondering about the language indeed :)
09:08:09  <Mailaender> even the guys who wrote >50% of OpenRA tend to not see the bigger picture
09:08:30  <Alberth> it looked somewhat java-ish
09:09:36  <blathijs> Hey, OpenRA, cool :-)
09:09:37  <Alberth> it's not really a problem, rewriting code is not about the text itself, but about changed ideas of what to put where, ie better structure for the problem you're solving
09:10:55  <Mailaender> yes, you can write Java like code with C# although we try to adhere to the .NET style guide and we prefer readability so everything is full of LINQ, but the game is CPU crazy anyway
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09:12:46  <blathijs> Mailaender: Though I have to admit, seeing something is written in .NET does appear as a downside to me, mostly since I haven't actually tried running something with Mono before :-)
09:13:25  <Mailaender> the framework is Open Source and helps us write more with less code so I guess it is win
09:14:20  <Mailaender> but yes there is a downside, bugs in Mono or different JIT compiler version can cause trouble sometimes, but we pretty much worked around most of them
09:15:07  <blathijs> Mailaender: Yeah, I realize it's mostly an unfair bias because .NET has the Windows label stuck to it, but that in itself is probably a downside of .NET in reality...
09:15:08  <Mailaender> latest release is very stable and recommended, there will be a tournament soon *hint hint* retro RTS gamers :)
09:15:44  <blathijs> Hehe, I am already short on time as it is now ;-p
09:16:26  <Mailaender> it was made by Microsoft and that is the arch enemy for all Linux users :P we only rely on WinForms for the editor and probably move that to in-game widgets soon as it is buggy on Linux/Mac and even depreceated on Windows
09:17:54  <Alberth> my main problem with C# is that a commercial company decides how and where it goes, Mono can only play the catch-up game
09:18:27  <Alberth> as language however, it looks interesting
09:18:30  <Mailaender> Xamarin is also pretty much a commercial company which tends to focus a lot on iOS/Android stuff for their Mono.
09:19:28  <Alberth> never heard of it, but then I am also not into mobile platforms
09:20:53  <Mailaender> the rest of the technology used for OpenRA in the background is the usual suspects like FreeType, OpenAL, SDL, OpenGL, NVIDIA Cg-Toolkit (okay that is non-free, but optional), some Russian FuzzyLogicLibrary for the AI, Mono.NAT for UPnP, SharpZipLib, I think that is all.
09:22:05  <planetmaker> As I've to leave now for a bit: Mailaender, if you have specific sprites from OpenGFX lists who worked on which
09:22:11  <Mailaender> well and we still depend on Freeware EULA covered assets, but the community is too small for projects like OpenGFX
09:22:41  <Alberth> imho opengfx does not need a large community
09:22:44  <planetmaker> Mailaender, and if you want rendered stuff, there's zBase, which is 100% by Zephyris
09:22:56  <Alberth> in the end, it comes down to just a few people
09:23:03  <planetmaker> and yes, OpenGFX needs only a handful of dedicated people
09:23:12  <planetmaker> zBase was done by mostly three people
09:23:12  <Alberth> the only problem is getting one such person on-board
09:23:20  <planetmaker> one graphics, two doing coding
09:23:36  <Mailaender> is nothing compared to your efforts
09:24:05  <planetmaker> <-- checkout zbase
09:24:44  <Mailaender> OpenRA is pretty much 8-bit only, everything else is probably out of scope.
09:25:11  <Alberth> for Zeph, 8bit is actually more work :)
09:25:20  <planetmaker> openttd was mostly, too. until like 18 months ago.
09:25:21  <Mailaender> wow, OpenTTD HD is coming soon?
09:25:51  <planetmaker> rather like "available for a year" ;-)
09:25:56  <Alberth> ie he starts with 3D in blender, renders 32bpp, and then converts to 8bpp
09:26:01  <planetmaker> graphics is the issue, though
09:26:49  <Mailaender> I just added Tiberian Sun SHP/MIX format and Paul is working on Voxels. Maybe the active Yuris Revenge and Tiberian Sun community will then switch to OpenRA for their total conversion mods :)
09:26:53  <planetmaker> they imho still need polishing now. which is slow
09:27:10  <Alberth> planetmaker: is there any progress at all?
09:27:12  <planetmaker> they = openttd 32bpp
09:27:23  <planetmaker> Alberth, not recently
09:27:23  <Alberth> k
09:27:45  <Mailaender> screenshots at look awesome!
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09:31:48  <Alberth> I would suggest to play the game in 32bpp mode for some time
09:32:24  <Alberth> to me it feels too unpolished and lacking details compared to the 8bpp art
09:32:35  <V453000> ^
09:32:44  <Alberth> hi V
09:32:51  <V453000> x1 zoom is way worse than 8bpp noextrazoom
09:32:54  <V453000> hi
09:33:24  <Alberth> I don't use the new zooms :)
09:33:36  <V453000> I am saying it all the time, you cannot get as good control over every single pixel with rendered sprites as with pixel art, that simply doesnt make sense :)
09:34:30  <Alberth> younger people used to 3d generated graphics may have a different experience
09:34:37  <planetmaker> Oh, I like the zooms. My favoured zoom is 2x now :)
09:35:02  <V453000> for normal building x1 is still the best :P
09:35:08  <Alberth> I'd need a bigger screen to make it useful :)
09:35:11  <planetmaker> V453000, you can. But it needs... more detailed texture. Which... is again pixel art :D
09:35:31  <planetmaker> ah, here at home screen size is not my issue anymore :D
09:35:53  <planetmaker> since I got myself a desktop again
09:36:02  <planetmaker> laptop... it would be too tiny
09:36:08  <V453000> with more detailed texture you dont even get that much, you need a texture which outputs 1x detailed image, which would probably be a massively overcontrasted thing in x4 or x2 I think
09:36:26  <Terkhen> good morning
09:36:38  <Alberth> moin Terkhen
09:36:43  <Alberth> how are you?
09:36:57  <Terkhen> somewhat tired, as usual :P
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09:37:20  <Alberth> get active, so you forget about tiredness :)
09:37:54  <Alberth> you can sleep again in 10 hours or so :)
09:38:00  <planetmaker> :-)
09:38:40  <Terkhen> I'll have to do some home stuff today, yes :P
09:39:06  <Wolf01> or you can sleep now for 10 hours and be active for 24 hours later
09:45:23  <Alberth> :D
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11:25:50  <perk111> !password
11:25:53  <perk111> sorry
11:25:56  <perk111> wrong tab
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12:43:14  <MNIM> hmmmmh
12:43:34  <MNIM> I wish FIRS had something like valuables.
12:44:13  <MNIM> a cargo that can be both produced and accepted at an industry.
12:45:05  <Alberth> that would be too easy :)
12:45:52  <MNIM> Meh, I think it would put an extra transport route in the game
12:46:22  <MNIM> as you'd need to connect to an industry instead of a town, so (especially when using trains) you can't just use the same infrastructure your town station uses
12:47:07  <MNIM> of course transport demand wouldn't explode as much as passengers
12:47:22  <MNIM> and gold 'production' would depend on both gold delivery and, say, mail
12:49:40  <MNIM> closest thing to it in FIRS would be the hotel, but it depends on food and alcohol too.
12:50:13  <planetmaker> calc 255 / 15
12:50:18  <planetmaker> @calc 255/15
12:50:19  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 17
12:50:34  <MNIM> (which is okay, but I screwed up on the station I built for it and I can't reverse trains on several tracks in there)
12:54:57  <V453000> do hotels increase production if they get food/alcohol? or?
12:55:17  <V453000> if not you can just cut out the depends :P
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13:47:25  <V453000> conclusion of the game: the best possible train density reachable is with jammed trains, thus here is a save of jammed network. gg
13:49:18  <planetmaker> lol
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13:57:10  <Beul> Hi
13:57:28  <Beul> I need some help with the signals callback in NML
13:58:28  <Beul> how do I use extra_callback_info2/ tell the grf what spriteset should be use for what toye of signal and what state?
13:58:53  <planetmaker> extra_callback_info2 is a variable you can query in the action2 chain
13:59:28  <planetmaker> s/action2 chain/switch blocks/
14:00:33  <V453000>
14:00:55  <planetmaker> :-)
14:01:17  <Beul> tnx that was helpfull :)
14:01:25  <V453000> from nuts :)
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15:25:29  <scshunt> planetmaker: the Ubuntu package appears to work
15:25:54  <planetmaker> great. Thanks for reporting back
15:30:38  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r25250 /trunk/bin/baseset (8 files) (2013-05-18 15:30:32 UTC)
15:30:39  <DorpsGek> -Add: Apply changed and newly added translations for base set descriptions
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15:53:56  <Eddi|zuHause> some days certainly are significantly longer than others
15:54:04  <planetmaker> yes
15:55:01  <Eddi|zuHause> especially if you go through a whole village in the rain, dropping off a birch tree at each house, play a short song, and receive a drink
15:55:23  <Eddi|zuHause> of the highly alcoholic kind
15:57:19  <planetmaker> who would do that today?
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16:04:35  <Eddi|zuHause> many villages around here have that tradition
16:05:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and on monday or tuesday they do another such round and collect eggs instead giving out trees
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18:26:14  <FLHerne_> Where do they get all the trees from?
18:26:19  <FLHerne_> Also, why? :P
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18:55:49  <Alberth> you can select a tree algorithm when generating a new world
18:59:13  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25251 trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp (2013-05-18 18:59:06 UTC)
18:59:14  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5540]: when overbuilding a reserved track with a non-track station tile, that tile would remain reserved and eventually trigger a crash upon removal
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19:34:14  <__ln__> was anyone offended by the finnish entry?
19:49:43  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: birch trees grow very fast :p
19:50:28  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: as to why, i have no real idea
19:50:35  <FLHerne> So you plant trees, let them grow for a year, then give them to people and plant some more?
19:50:56  <FLHerne> Also, what do you do with trees having recieved them?
19:51:00  <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: why do you put a tree in your house in december?
19:51:01  * FLHerne is puzzled
19:51:33  <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: Because then we can claim to to have wasted money on the sack barrow :P
19:51:42  <FLHerne> *not to have
19:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> and what happens to all those trees in january?
19:52:54  <FLHerne> Cut the branches off and stick them in the ground to grow plants on :-)
19:53:30  <FLHerne> Then they go rotten after a few years and get to meet the shredder
20:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause> strannge thing, when you google for "Maienaustragen" you find 1000 results, but nothing wikipedia-ish which actually explains what it is
20:03:48  <Eddi|zuHause> only announcements that it happens, or recordings of previous events
20:04:54  <Ristovski> it's 24.7C in my room :O
20:08:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess it's a regional variation on
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20:30:24  <Rubidium> oh bugger... didn't write the 1.3.1-RC1 commit message with a witty remark of whit (Friday in this case)
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20:37:11  <funnyguy3D> hey
20:37:54  <funnyguy3D> anybody there?
20:38:52  <Rubidium> depends on where there is
20:39:07  <funnyguy3D> fair enough
20:39:28  <funnyguy3D> do you 100% need TTD to use OpenTTD?
20:40:00  <Rubidium> no
20:40:25  <funnyguy3D> OpenGFX is the substitute right?
20:40:41  <Rubidium> one of them
20:41:03  <Rubidium> but that's only for graphics; there are others for sounds and music
20:41:09  <funnyguy3D> i noticed
20:41:56  <funnyguy3D> so would i install the Open GFX SFX and MSX first before installing OpenTTD?
20:42:33  <Rubidium> if you're on windows, you just let the installer download and install them
20:43:10  <Rubidium> alternative, on Windows and Linux, you can just install OpenTTD and then upon first start it will ask to download a graphics set, and after that you can download music and sound from the online content system
20:43:21  <funnyguy3D> oh, it downloads them on its own?
20:43:55  <funnyguy3D> awesome, didn't know that.
20:43:58  <funnyguy3D> thanks
20:53:53  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you're on OSX
20:53:59  <Eddi|zuHause> in this case, you're screwed :p
21:00:17  <__ln__> but at least you're screwed the cool way
21:00:30  <Eddi|zuHause> "CCA (Corrections Corporation of America) investor: 'That the USA have so many prisoners is proof that the USA are the freest country on earth"
21:06:11  <Rubidium> why am I immediately thinking of Godwin's law?
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21:07:49  <Eddi|zuHause> there doesn't seem to be anything interesting in this ESC :/
21:08:22  <__ln__> you could say romania was 'interesting'
21:09:04  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe, but it hurt my ears :p
21:09:22  <__ln__> not to mention eyes
21:09:35  <Rubidium> put some birch in your ears ;)
21:11:14  <__ln__> finland's song was about quite a similar theme as lena's winning song a few years back.
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21:17:07  <Eddi|zuHause> but much more barbie coloured...
21:26:43  <Eddi|zuHause> since when is "never talk on a train" a stereotype about sweden?
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21:37:23  <__ln__> not something i would associate to sweden, though i must admit i've never been on a swedish train.
21:45:47  <__ln__> they're voting all wrong
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22:11:36  <NGC3982> wat
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23:05:39  <Wolf01> 'night
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