Log for #openttd on 28th May 2013:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:15  <glx> it's the call stack for each thread
00:01:43  <glx> not really useful unless you search the cause for a crash
00:02:13  <samu> im waiting for no sound in my system
00:02:17  <samu> lol
00:03:34  <FLHerne> V453000: Why?
00:03:54  <glx> you probably won't notice any changes there when the sound disappear
00:04:05  <V453000> because yes :D
00:04:33  <FLHerne> V453000: If you mess up Linux, my computers will cease to function :-(
00:04:50  <V453000> I doubt I will touch linux in any way :)
00:05:38  <FLHerne> V453000: You should, it beats Windows :D
00:05:45  <samu> what should I look for about sound?
00:06:03  <V453000> but anything that runs on electricity and gets into moderately close proximity to me, usually starts to malfunction severely
00:06:13  <V453000> sooo you might want to just stay away and you are safe :P
00:06:23  <V453000> it doesnt beat windows if you need adobe products and stuff :)
00:07:30  <samu> meh windows services, this list is too big...
00:07:46  <glx> if it's related to the driver you won't find the cause in openttd threads
00:09:11  <samu> i'm trying to figure it out what is audio related on this whole mess
00:09:43  <samu> svchost.exe / AudioEndPointBuilder ?
00:10:12  <glx> yes if this one is stopped there's no audio
00:11:00  <glx> you should check its state when sound is gone
00:11:29  <FLHerne> V453000: No-one needs Adobe products and stuff :P
00:11:44  <V453000> that doesnt make sense :)
00:12:25  <FLHerne> Krita/Lightspark/KDevelop/[alternative to whatever else Adobe produce]...
00:13:07  <samu> restricted, doesn't let me spy svchost
00:15:29  <V453000> which is clearly the reason why everyone uses adobe :P
00:15:47  <glx> samu: File|Show detail for all processes
00:15:56  <samu> Unable to access thread
00:16:00  <samu> hmm :8
00:16:15  <glx> it will switch to admin mode
00:16:43  <samu> it is doing it
00:16:58  <samu> it shows details for all processes already
00:17:32  <samu> some can't be spyed
00:18:12  <samu> audiodg.exe for example
00:19:56  <samu> found another
00:20:09  <samu> Audiosrv
00:20:22  <samu> inside another svchost
00:21:17  <samu> this one is Sound Blaster - VolPanlu.exe
00:21:54  <samu> another - THXAudio.exe
00:22:57  <samu> this one is for Realtek - RtkNGUI64.exe
00:23:09  <glx> some processes are protected yes
00:24:44  <samu> this one is strange
00:25:23  <samu> rundll32.exe > THXCfg64.dll
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00:26:09  <samu> rundll32.exe > AmbRunE.dll
00:27:11  <samu> CTAudSvc.exe
00:27:46  <samu> that's all
00:32:37  <glx> anyway it's too late for me
00:32:44  <glx> good night
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00:32:59  <samu> ok, cyas good night
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02:14:18  <Mazur> Bummer, to lose an entire terminal, and that while your using it.
02:15:58  <Mazur> Happened to me once, some electronic component died with a bang and a flash, and green smoke.
02:16:16  * Mazur dove under the desk to unplug the damn thing.
02:16:52  <Mazur> Phoned the Vatican to ask what green smoke meant, but they had no idea, they only use black/white.
03:25:28  <Eddi|zuHause> green is probably copper
03:26:38  <Eddi|zuHause> every metal has a unique colour when burning, through a prism you can identify al elements in a fire
03:27:18  <Eddi|zuHause> astronomers use that to identify the age of a star
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04:08:41  <Mazur> I know.
04:09:14  <Mazur> Still, not what you want before your first sip of coffee.
04:09:31  <Mazur> Luckily it was a work machine, not at home.
04:09:34  <Mazur> :-)
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06:37:32  <Aphid> -- Copied from openttdcoop.devzone --  Rebased orthogonal income correction to trunk. []. As this is my first patch; I'm wondering if someone could take a look at it sometime.
06:37:32  <Aphid>
06:37:32  <Aphid> Instead of --
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07:14:31  <planetmaker> Aphid_OFF, "as the plane flies" distance is the euclidean distance
07:15:30  <planetmaker> Aphid_OFF, you also should configure your editor such that it removes trailing whitespace ;-)
07:15:38  <__ln__> not realistic
07:18:33  <planetmaker> Aphid_OFF, you also seem to remove the use of BigMulS without good reason, introducing the manual shift in many places. Insteadof probably handling any needed shift in the income function itself
07:19:51  <planetmaker> Aphid_OFF, Money profit = GetTransportedGoodsIncome(accepted, DistanceManhattan(source_tile, st->xy), days_in_transit, cargo_type); should not need changing, if you change the income. Rather distinguish distance type therein
07:20:22  <planetmaker> as you add now much code duplication
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09:31:17  <oskari89> Why introduction dates and lifetimes are not visible on wagons and coaches?
09:31:26  <oskari89> :P
09:32:12  <oskari89> As a NewGRF developer, i would like to have those visible
09:32:57  <V453000> write them to the additional text :)
09:33:10  <oskari89> It's stupid
09:33:14  <V453000> ok
09:33:16  <V453000> then dont
09:33:33  <oskari89> Because both have their property already defined
09:33:48  <oskari89> It's a case to make it visible
09:33:55  <oskari89> *them
09:34:57  <oskari89> Is the reason to not include them the default wagons introduced at very low date, with lifetime of infinity?
09:36:20  <oskari89> Making a switch of that could be nice :P
09:38:16  <oskari89> Because introduction date and lifetime is shown on locomotives and MU's, why not on non-powered vehicles?
09:38:27  <oskari89> It doesn't make any sense
09:40:49  <V453000> because it wasnt needed for original and nobody was lazy enough not to include it in additional text yet
09:40:56  <V453000> I assume
09:41:23  <oskari89> That is very poor explanation :P
09:43:27  <oskari89> Shouldn't be big feature to code in OpenTTD
09:44:02  <V453000> do it
09:44:14  <oskari89> Not me, i'm not coder :P
09:44:32  <oskari89> Just NewGRF developer
09:45:38  <V453000> well, I would in your position just do it the way you can, and create a ticket with a request
09:45:57  <oskari89> I think i'll do :P
09:46:15  <V453000> by the time you just spent discussing  you could have had it completed already
09:46:42  <V453000> which train set are we talking about btw?
09:47:11  <oskari89> Finnish Trainset
09:48:07  <oskari89> Because we have 5 generations of passenger coaches alone, it's very useful to have those introduction dates and lifetimes visible :P
09:48:08  <V453000> btw writing loading speed into wagon stats is also a good idea
09:48:32  <oskari89> Yes, that is
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10:12:25  <planetmaker> he's gone...
10:13:47  <planetmaker> but really... you only have usually one or two wagons available for each cargo...
10:16:10  <planetmaker> thus: he should play with expiring vehicles
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10:16:43  <Eddi|zuHause> what does that have to do with displaying missing values?
10:18:22  <V453000> that wih e.w. you have only one wagon so it doesnt really matter
10:18:29  <V453000> though expiring vehicles are wtf :)
10:19:03  <V453000> but seriously, he has the simple option of adding it into wagon strings (which probably should be added anyway, with some extra info)
10:19:14  <V453000> so to me it is only a lazy request to do something through openttd just cause he is lazy
10:20:30  <juzza1> is there a reason not to make such a patch? i was looking at the source and the fix would be really simple
10:21:00  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: it's not that simple, because the values are randomized
10:21:12  <V453000> rando- what?
10:21:16  <V453000> which values
10:21:18  <V453000> the intro date?
10:21:23  <Eddi|zuHause> intro date
10:21:42  <V453000> well engines have their intro date in purchase menu also written as code value but come out at the random date
10:22:32  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but the NewGRF text callback might not have access to those same values
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10:22:53  <Eddi|zuHause> they must be pushed onto the stack by the callback
10:23:51  <V453000> right, well I am not trying to justify such a feature, as I said. I do it through additional text in purchase menu and I think it is an easy method to do so
10:27:17  <V453000> additional values like loading speeds, or extra other info about the wagons should in my opinion be added just as well in the purchase menu, so the extra string should be needed regardless
10:27:54  <V453000> e.g. nuts ... intro date: 1990, loading speed: 9, Can be hauled by cargo engines.
10:28:08  <V453000> + whatever you can think of
10:31:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i use that for railtype and stuff
10:32:33  <Eddi|zuHause> and the person who implemented a "stack" by limited amount of registers should be shot
10:33:19  <Eddi|zuHause> there should have been a "write-only" register, and every subsequent write to it, would put another value on the stack. that would be a _real_ stack
10:35:46  <V453000> :d just sold 1400 trains with 1 click
10:37:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i count 6 clicks. train list->manage list->send to depot. depot->sell all->confirm
10:37:34  <V453000> well yes
10:38:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think i had 1400 trains in all my games combined :p
10:38:52  <V453000> I am aiming for 5000 :)
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11:12:03  <Mortomes> NoAI question here, having some trouble using the standard squirrel random number generator, and the online documentation is not helping either, am I missing something? :P
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11:14:45  <Mortomes> The index 'rand' does not exist
11:18:48  <Mortomes> Never mind!
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11:24:14  <Samu> helo
11:24:42  <Samu> local authority allows me to upgrade bridges even though my rating is appalling
11:25:24  <Pinkbeast> Samu: Yes, LAs only restrict one or two things (demolition and station building IIRC)
11:25:26  <Samu> is that correct behaviour? or am I missing something?
11:25:46  <planetmaker> yes. and yes
11:25:52  <Samu> ok
11:26:09  <Samu> ty
11:26:56  <Pinkbeast> This produces some vexing consequences - ideally you want to plot your entire line first but not build any, plunk stations down, and only then go cut down their precious trees
11:27:31  <V453000> or use magic dozer and get rid of the issue entirely :)
11:28:00  <Pinkbeast> If you're going to cheat, who cares how you do it?
11:28:38  <planetmaker> Generally first build stations, then tracks. And you'll hardly ever have an issue
11:29:10  <Pinkbeast> Mmm, except I generally know where I want my stations after building some tracks up to them
11:29:13  <V453000> well as dozer does not reduce authority ratings, it works perfectly that way Pinkbeast, all other solutions are nice but not as good
11:29:32  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, it's just a matter of approach. Not difficult to do vice versa :-)
11:29:51  <planetmaker> if you build first tracks, that limits where you sensibly can place your stations, of course
11:30:09  <planetmaker> I choose station placement on the amount of space I need for entry and exit areas
11:30:26  <planetmaker> I usually can judge the needed space rather well :-)
11:31:20  <Samu> wow, i'm outstanding, it changed rather quick
11:31:36  <Pinkbeast> I find it's OK with a standard station but where space/money/LA rating demands something cramped, it's hard to know how it'll turn out
11:32:20  <Samu> got 22 bus stations on it
11:32:30  <Samu> hmm 66 buses
11:32:36  <Samu> town is very big
11:32:46  <Samu> 100,143 ppl
11:34:58  <Samu> this server is about to finish, 2 years remain
11:35:49  <Samu> ah, i had some idea the other day for industry list
11:36:25  <Samu> to have filters, tiny buttons
11:36:42  <Samu> almost the same functionality as station list
11:46:02  <V453000> cant say I ever use that list for anything
11:46:06  <V453000> nor can I think what would that be useful for
11:46:36  <planetmaker> industry list: finding unserviced or badly serviced industries
11:46:57  <planetmaker> especially important in goal scenarios where you need to transport X of cargo Y within Z years
11:47:02  <Samu> i want to filter by cargo
11:47:10  <Samu> for example, grain
11:47:17  <Samu> it will only show up farms
11:47:25  <planetmaker> filter by farms then?
11:47:28  <Samu> then I could sort farms
11:47:29  <planetmaker> or sort rather
11:47:42  <Samu> by how much it produces
11:47:56  <Samu> or how much it is transported
11:49:17  <Pinkbeast> Unless on a huge map, sorting by total production cargo type serves, but I don't see why such a filter would be a bad thing.
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11:49:30  <Pinkbeast> You'd have to filter separately by "generates" and "accepts", hm.
11:49:41  <Pinkbeast> Also "generates", "might generate"... tricky
11:50:02  <Samu> or filter by Goods?
11:50:07  <planetmaker> most often it's mostly a matter of *someone*. And only secondarily of *how*.
11:50:23  <Samu> goods will pop sawmills
11:50:29  <Samu> factories
11:50:32  <Samu> refineries
11:50:50  <Samu> then sort by Type
11:51:07  <Samu> it will group factories together, factories together
11:51:14  <Samu> oops, sawmills
11:51:19  <Samu> and refineries
11:52:36  <Samu> there's a NO button
11:53:07  <Samu> No cargo of any type is waiting -> No cargo of any type is produced
11:53:16  <Samu> and it shows... Power Station
11:54:53  <Samu> yeah, its the only onle that doesn't produce anything
11:55:14  <Pinkbeast> Samu: bear in mind that newgrf industries can do funny stuff, eg, acceptance and production can change
11:55:33  <Pinkbeast> The existing industry window sorts by type and past production because those are known facts
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14:43:29  <samu> bah
14:44:30  <samu> ST2?
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14:46:32  <samu> there goes autoclean killing my company...
14:47:19  <samu> ST2?
14:47:30  <samu> I can't rejoin
14:47:42  <samu> it downloads 12 kb and stops
14:51:00  <samu> bah... internet in Portugal. I can view a youtube video but I can't join a openttd game
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15:08:22  <samu> :(
15:08:50  <samu>
15:10:22  <samu> any network expert tell me what's happening?
15:10:33  <samu> traffic shapping?
15:12:37  <samu> I can't join an openttd game, but I can stream radio or view youtube videos, why? what's the difference?
15:13:07  <Pinkbeast> They can buffer before playback?
15:13:24  <samu> yes
15:13:27  <samu> i guess so
15:13:36  <Pinkbeast> Er, that was a rhetorical question.
15:14:00  <Pinkbeast> Also if you're behind a crappy NAT you probably can't get outbound port 3979; worth checking that.
15:14:17  <samu> I was playing an openttd game, but it was a bit jerky already
15:14:24  <samu> then I'm dropped
15:14:29  <samu> can no longer get in
15:14:42  <Rubidium> it *might* not be your connection, but the connection of the server
15:14:44  <Pinkbeast> Right, if you could get in at all, it's not port blocking.
15:15:18  <samu> It downloads a bit when joining, then stops
15:15:27  <samu> downloads only about 12 kb / 16 kb
15:15:49  <samu> and shows 20 seconds saying nothing was receiving
15:16:31  <samu> but i can listen to a radio without interruptions
15:16:51  <ST2> I believe it's a ISP issue, already got that problems when used to have "cabovisao"
15:17:33  <samu> this is zon netcabo vodafone
15:17:35  <samu> lol
15:17:46  <samu> should be zon
15:20:36  <samu> How to confront my ISP about this issue?
15:20:52  <samu> I'm always short-termed because I'm not expert enough
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15:48:53  <samu> ST2, what is autoclean timeout?
15:49:00  <samu> how long
15:49:23  <samu> how long will my company last?
15:51:13  <samu> anyone could test something for me please?
15:51:45  <samu> create a game with map size 64*128, I think I can download enough to join a game that size
15:51:57  <samu> need to test
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15:58:58  <samu> :o
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17:45:39  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25300 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-05-28 17:45:28 UTC)
17:45:40  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:41  <DorpsGek> italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
17:45:42  <DorpsGek> portuguese - 8 changes by hthief
17:45:43  <DorpsGek> russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:45:44  <DorpsGek> gaelic - 8 changes by GunChleoc
17:45:45  <DorpsGek> vietnamese - 7 changes by nglekhoi
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17:51:23  <Wolf01> oddink o/
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18:15:11  <Aphid> Ah, I know why I changed the distances by doing '<<16'. It's because I changed the accuracy of the 'GetTransportedGoodsIncome' function.
18:15:22  <Aphid> If I didn't it would round to whole tiles.
18:19:18  <Aphid> Turns out that this could introduce all kinds of weird behaviours with transfers.
18:23:13  <peter1138> grrr what
18:23:22  <peter1138> php to mysql sucking :S
18:29:29  <Aphid> Aphid_OFF, you also seem to remove the use of BigMulS without good reason, introducing the manual shift in many places. Insteadof probably handling any needed shift in the income function itself <-- this one. I wanted the extra accuracy. Without doing '<<16' a one-tile diagonal route becomes 1 tile long instead of 1.414 tiles long. An extra 16 bits precision awards you an extra 4-5 digits;
18:29:29  <Aphid> which means cheating the system by repeatedly transferring without delivering becomes unfeasible. Here's the detail: If you transport in a loop 1.4 tiles 3 times and then back again you get paid for 1 tile for looping your cargo around due to rounding error. <== that the reason. I thought this was a decent solution to increase the accuracy of the income solution, the top 16 bits of 'distance'
18:29:29  <Aphid> are never used anyway.
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19:03:16  <planetmaker> Aphid: besides that, I'm 99.9% sure that we have euclidean distance already in the source. Using the square of it allows to use arbitrary accuracy
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19:08:19  <Aphid> Hmm.. but then I have to take the square root...
19:08:29  <planetmaker> DistanceSquare
19:08:38  <planetmaker> no, you don't. Just use square
19:08:47  <planetmaker> or truncate
19:08:49  <Aphid> Ye that's the distance squared. I can't 'just use square' since I'm not using it for comparisons
19:09:25  <Aphid> I want my income to be 1 per unit of distance as the train actually travels whenever the route is optimal whatever the relative topology of the starting and end tile is.
19:09:46  <planetmaker> one fraction of a tile doesn't matter
19:10:06  <Aphid> .9 of a tile doesn't matter too much on a 300-tile journey yes
19:10:14  <Aphid> But what about a 6-tile journey/
19:10:15  <Aphid> ?
19:10:57  <planetmaker> I don't care either
19:11:25  <planetmaker> though I actually wonder whether one can truncate a square root. I guess not
19:11:30  <planetmaker> desync might be ahead
19:11:37  <Aphid> yes, that's the problem
19:11:43  <Aphid> So instead I use a pre-computed square root
19:12:06  <Aphid> sqrt(2) * 65536 = 92682.
19:12:34  <Aphid> So I can simply multiply the diagonal distance by 92682 and bit-shift the orthogonal distance 16 spots.
19:12:54  <Aphid> And I have distance as the 'openttd plane flies' (a plane that can only fly in 8 directions)
19:13:18  <Aphid> which is coincidentally the way 3 of the 4 vehicle types travel.
19:13:48  <planetmaker> still. That shift outside the function calls does seem pretty wrong to me
19:14:53  <planetmaker> *outside the distance function itself
19:15:02  <Aphid> it's just inputting distance in 65536ths of tiles. Sort of a makeshift float. Since distances greater than 8K don't happen in openTTD there's no problem, right?
19:15:25  <planetmaker> I know what you do. But you don't do it consequently. you introduce it in one single place
19:15:35  <planetmaker> duplicating the code upon calling the functions
19:15:45  <planetmaker> while that should be best encapsulated in a function itself
19:15:48  <Aphid> Ah, you mean a wrapper for the function?
19:15:55  <planetmaker> when I call it, I'm not interested in the computational details
19:16:01  <Aphid> That's actually a good idea aye
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19:17:17  <Aphid> Like so:
19:17:18  <Aphid> Money GetTransportedGoodsIncome(uint num_pieces, uint distance, byte transit_days, CargoID cargo_type)
19:17:18  <Aphid> {
19:17:18  <Aphid> 	return GetTransportedGoodsIncome_precise(num_pieces, distance >> 16, transit_days, cargo_type)
19:17:18  <Aphid> }
19:18:45  <planetmaker> that includes the conditional checking for the setting you introduce
19:19:22  <planetmaker> you do that check also twice
19:19:33  <planetmaker> adding bloat in places I don't care about it ;-)
19:20:49  <planetmaker> but something along those lines, yes
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19:42:39  <Aphid> Okay done the thing and wrapped it
19:42:39  <Aphid>
19:42:44  <Aphid> patch looks cleaner now
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20:10:47  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25301 /trunk (6 files in 2 dirs) (2013-05-28 20:10:41 UTC)
20:10:48  <DorpsGek> -Change: Slightly enlarge the default-windowsize button icon.
20:16:06  <frosch123> night
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23:07:39  <Wolf01> 'night
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