Log for #openttd on 2nd June 2013:
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00:02:16  <samu>
00:02:30  <samu> did I report in the wrong place?
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00:02:42  <samu> it's a zBase crash
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01:13:18  <perk11> looks like a legit place for report to me
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07:00:18  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:40:15  <planetmaker> moin
07:46:33  <V453000> elo
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08:37:38  <Alberth> mornink
08:38:17  <planetmaker> more ink, Alberth
08:42:21  <Alberth> You got better unspamming powers, I see. Very good :)
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08:45:51  <planetmaker> yeah, thought I could hit ban on a few spammers when I stumble upon them could be helpful
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09:11:54  <frosch123> hmm... now that i notice... why didn't i apply for global moderator? i could have gotton a green nickname!
09:12:32  <planetmaker> :-)
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09:13:19  <planetmaker> apply as graphics forum moderator and ask for a change into light leaf green
09:13:34  <frosch123> :p
09:14:08  <frosch123> i should join transport empire
09:14:18  <planetmaker> or just ask for a special colour. To warn of the jumpy nickname associations
09:14:53  <frosch123> sounds dangerous, what if V gets a rainbow nick?
09:15:33  <frosch123> who is geo ghost?
09:15:49  <planetmaker> a very long-time-around person
09:16:53  <frosch123> yeah, but unless they are locomotion guys, i should at least know them by name :s
09:16:57  <planetmaker> runs the monthly photo competition
09:17:41  <planetmaker> not sure he plays anything still... don't recall his activity on anything else but the competition
09:18:03  <frosch123> looks like one post this year in ottd general
09:18:12  <frosch123> no wonder i do not know him :)
09:51:40  <oskari89>
09:52:44  <oskari89> planetmaker: How hard it would be to code that feature?
09:53:18  <planetmaker> not very
09:53:41  <planetmaker> but you have to be careful. And introduce several if then else cases depending on settings
09:53:53  <planetmaker> though maybe one can do without
09:54:08  <planetmaker> depends on how you extend the window and add or change the string(s)
09:57:27  <planetmaker> and depends on whether you want to make it configurable in any way or if you're content with increasing the text area for each vehicle by two or three lines, thus adding 50...100% in size
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09:59:09  <planetmaker> oskari89, the main problem IMHO is that it starts to be or is over the edge of "too much information" in that window and whether and if so, how to deal with it
10:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, i disagree. there are some important infos missing currently...
10:06:29  <Eddi|zuHause> and "NewGRF can add it" is not the solution to everything
10:06:44  <planetmaker> I know. Note that I did not say that
10:21:40  <oskari89> Eddi|zuhause: Exactly
10:22:42  <oskari89> Those introduction dates and lifetimes are important info IMHO
10:23:39  <oskari89> Because they are already on locomotive and MU's, they should be on wagons and coaches too :P
10:23:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i disagree to the lifetime though, wagons have no lifetime, only a model life (and that is not displayed for engines either)
10:24:11  <oskari89> Ok
10:24:29  <oskari89> Introduction date could be nice though :P
10:24:55  <Eddi|zuHause> intro date would be "nice to have", but loading speed is imho essential
10:24:56  <planetmaker> Introduction dates... that's pointless really. They're there in the list, if available. Otherwise not
10:25:15  <planetmaker> it makes some sense jointly with model life
10:25:19  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but that applies to engines as well
10:25:38  <Eddi|zuHause> it's inconsistent to do it for one, and leave it out for the other
10:25:45  <planetmaker> But then, do you know the model life of the vehicle you buy now?
10:26:16  <oskari89> Engines do contain introduction dates already without model life :P
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10:26:27  <Eddi|zuHause> another thing that's missing is the compatible/powered railtypes, but i'm not sure how to display that
10:26:39  <planetmaker> that'll be nearly a sack of worms
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10:26:53  <planetmaker> loading speed imho is the most important missing one
10:27:06  <planetmaker> which in my eyes should get some more love than the plain nfo speed
10:27:19  <planetmaker> thus, making it more than very easy task, oskari89
10:27:24  <Ristovski> Hello
10:27:28  <planetmaker> hi Ristovski
10:27:34  <frosch123> [12:25] <planetmaker> it makes some sense jointly with model life <- model life would be most silly
10:27:34  <oskari89> planetmaker: Ok
10:27:42  <Alberth> planetmaker: introduction dates are mostly for checking which one is the newest
10:27:46  <frosch123> you do not know how long a engine will be available :p
10:27:49  <Ristovski> Finally it's only 20C here
10:27:54  <planetmaker> frosch123, yes. See above ;-)
10:28:02  <frosch123> :p
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10:28:15  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and while we're discussing stuff, the engine preview/news windows should display the newgrf text as well (possibly with a flag to the callback where it's written)
10:28:33  <oskari89> Yes, that is correct
10:28:42  <oskari89> I've missed out that too
10:29:19  * Alberth just always clicks "no"
10:29:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that is not the point :p
10:29:42  <planetmaker> sometimes I accept. But then I know that I can really use it
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10:30:20  <planetmaker> for trainsets I do not know, I'm missing a comparison function to decide whether I want to accept the preview
10:30:28  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: it also does not help, those pesky manufacturers continue asking :p
10:30:47  <Eddi|zuHause> different feature :p
10:31:23  <planetmaker> :-)
10:31:33  <oskari89> But to the original thing: I think locomotive/MU and wagon/coach info should be identical
10:31:43  <oskari89> (as shown)
10:32:07  <oskari89> Mainly :P
10:32:35  <oskari89> Introduction dates should really be on both
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10:33:41  <Eddi|zuHause> now you're just discussing in circles
10:33:41  <Alberth> oskari89: aren't you assuming here "newer == better"?
10:33:52  <Alberth> which need not be the case
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10:35:19  <planetmaker> really. introduction date... is absolutely unneeded for deciding on a vehicle to buy
10:35:47  <oskari89> For information purposes it should be fine
10:35:49  <planetmaker> vehicle life is more important. That is the estimated time till replacement
10:36:06  <planetmaker> you say it's the most important missing thing. I disagree quite a bit there
10:36:17  <planetmaker> it doesn't add really useful info
10:36:48  <oskari89> It adds info for player to seek wagons and coaches from different generations
10:37:01  <planetmaker> no
10:37:01  <Ristovski> planetmaker: we still need a function to mute OpenTTD :D
10:37:02  <oskari89> And make proper consist based on that intro date
10:37:20  <oskari89> :P
10:37:25  * Alberth gives Ristovski a cable cutter
10:37:28  <Ristovski> I mean, you can disable the audio set, sure, but you need to exit the game for that
10:37:46  <Ristovski> Alberth: Great, now I need to solder it back again :C
10:37:52  <Alberth> edit the openttd.config manually?
10:37:56  <planetmaker> Ristovski, yes, that's true. Please, I'll gladly accept patches. Game options window should allow that.
10:38:16  <Ristovski> planetmaker: hmm... maybe a button and a shortcut?
10:38:33  <Ristovski> Ill poke around in the source later
10:38:43  <Alberth> Ristovski: that's step 2 or 3 or so
10:38:43  <planetmaker> Ristovski, music can be changed ingame from... juke box. Just not music set
10:38:54  <planetmaker> but there it should be feasible to change, too
10:39:01  <planetmaker> maybe not sound set, though
10:39:19  <planetmaker> as that messes with newgrfs potentially
10:39:23  <planetmaker> just music
10:39:29  <planetmaker> though volume, of course for both
10:40:00  <Ristovski> also, you could be able to mute all of the sounds with a button/shortcut
10:40:22  <Ristovski> planetmaker: maybe even a feature that mutes the sounds when OpenTTD is minimized, that would be cool
10:40:25  <oskari89> planetmaker: Because introduction date is shown already on locomotives and  multiple units (good feature), it should be available too on coaches and wagons, there's no reason to left it out :P
10:40:36  <planetmaker> Ristovski, that could imho be a patch coming after this rework
10:40:56  <planetmaker> shortcuts can be assigned to single things
10:41:02  <Ristovski> hmm, ok
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10:41:15  <frosch123> [12:30] <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: it also does not help, those pesky manufacturers continue asking :p <- the funny thing about the previews is actually, that you are asked less if you say "yes" and then do not build it :p
10:41:31  <planetmaker> Ristovski, only because I think the current inconsistency there is worse than a missing global shortcut for "mute all"
10:41:39  <LordAro> 'lo all
10:41:40  <frosch123> so, if they annoy you, you should always say "yes" :)
10:41:45  <planetmaker> could probably be done rather independently
10:41:46  <Ristovski> planetmaker: Yeah, true :P
10:41:52  <planetmaker> hi lobster
10:41:55  <Alberth> hi LordAro
10:42:06  <planetmaker> he... yea... LordAro :-)
10:42:14  <LordAro> hai Alberth and planetmaker :)
10:42:18  <planetmaker> damn tab completion ;-)
10:42:22  <LordAro> autocomplete screw you over again? :P
10:42:32  <Ristovski> planetmaker: Also, sorry for not doing any translation work, was kinda busy
10:42:43  <planetmaker> RL is RL. No worries
10:43:04  <planetmaker> you should get going at ogfx-landscape, though ;-)
10:43:18  <LordAro> scary place, outside
10:43:27  <Alberth> frosch123: yeah, but it's still a nuisance :)
10:43:31  <planetmaker> windows3D, LordAro ;-)
10:43:36  <planetmaker> with touch-feedback
10:43:45  <Ristovski> planetmaker: hmm, true, I could translate some of those
10:45:36  <planetmaker> and I need to find motivation to tackle the last missing bit... rail tunnels
10:45:52  <Ristovski> DO EET
10:46:32  <planetmaker> it's boring graphics work. Not interesting one. Copy & paste. Removing grids. No new work.
10:47:00  <planetmaker> separating tracks + tunnels :S
10:47:15  <planetmaker> and tunnels + terrain
10:47:15  <Ristovski> I should learn to do that, but too lazy :P
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11:53:13  <zooks> in NML, how do you reference to a sprite in another grf or in a baseset? Can't find such functions in the documentation..
11:55:12  <planetmaker> another newgrf: you cannot
11:55:21  <planetmaker> baseset sprites: by their number
11:55:56  <planetmaker>
11:58:45  <zooks> ah thx!
11:58:50  <planetmaker> see also base_sprite_2cc and base_sprite_shores in
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11:59:14  <planetmaker> oh. and base_sprite_foundations
12:00:42  <LordAro> it would be cool if you could do something like: "if newgrf123 is loaded, use newgrf123_sprite5, else ..."
12:02:15  <planetmaker> LordAro, that's... very impractical
12:02:23  <planetmaker> it has many unknowns
12:02:34  <planetmaker> newgrf order, and parameters of *all* newgrfs
12:02:45  <planetmaker> and openttd version
12:02:51  <LordAro> true :L
12:02:51  <planetmaker> and baseset version
12:02:53  <frosch123> don't we have some andy quote in stock about newgrfs checking about other newgrfs? :p
12:02:56  <planetmaker> so... not going to happen
12:03:21  <LordAro> aaw :L
12:04:30  <planetmaker> LordAro, at least I don't see how to practically do that. If there's a way to do that without base set determining the newgrf sprite numbers... then maybe
12:06:34  <LordAro> not saying it wouldn't be totally impractical :)
12:06:51  <LordAro> just that grfs can already see what other newgrfs are loaded, right?
12:07:37  <LordAro> therefore (in my head at least) it wouldn't be too far of a stretch for my imagination to allow access to other parts of the newgrf, such as parameters or sprites
12:08:53  <Alberth> we are trying to eradicate such evilnesses!
12:09:00  <planetmaker> LordAro, NewGRFs can see which and where others are loaded, including their parameters
12:09:46  <planetmaker> LordAro, where do you actually need that?
12:10:16  <LordAro> i have no idea, i was merely commenting on the previous conversation with zook s
12:10:19  <planetmaker> If you want to change stuff of an existing NewGRF: use a NewGRF override
12:10:23  <LordAro> :3
12:10:31  <planetmaker> If you add new stuff: check for the grf. And include the sprite(s)
12:10:40  <Rubidium> LordAro: good luck with your massive lookup table for finding the right sprite in all 'supported' versions of the NewGRF
12:10:46  <planetmaker> you do NOT need landscape sprites. They're baseset
12:11:18  <planetmaker> and indeed, I would not be able to give or want to guarantee any sprite number in any grf except the 5 base grfs
12:11:39  <planetmaker> not even the 6th base grf, the extra one I can guarantee it
12:11:55  <LordAro> i never said it was practical, it was just an idea!
12:11:59  * LordAro hides
12:12:00  <Rubidium> that is... if you compile it again with NML, the sprites might be somewhere else... so version includes the carthesian product of both the NML source version AND the NML compiler version
12:12:05  <planetmaker> add an additional action14 translation *poof*
12:14:20  <Rubidium> so merely ~4 million versions for OpenGFX+ Landscape -> 32 MB lookup table
12:14:58  <planetmaker> :D
12:15:17  * LordAro buries his head deeper into the sand
12:15:25  <planetmaker> I doubt that that many NML versions compile it, Rubidium ;-)
12:18:36  <Alberth> Rb likes generic solutions to problems ;)
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12:20:46  <planetmaker> one ban a day, keeps the spammer away :-)
12:22:07  <LordAro> you banning people at random again? :P
12:22:50  <planetmaker> of course
12:23:03  <planetmaker> (not that I could before :-P )
12:25:00  <LordAro> is this your new global admin forum status? or did you have that already?
12:25:59  <planetmaker> I didn't have that
12:26:22  <Ristovski> uhh.... wat,
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12:27:47  <planetmaker> :D
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12:28:06  <planetmaker> iff they only had written correctly the programme name in the youtube title
12:28:20  <planetmaker> probably too stoned
12:28:22  <Ristovski> :D
12:30:32  <LordAro> Ristovski: did i see that on reddit?
12:30:44  <Ristovski> LordAro: Yup
12:30:54  <Ristovski> someone posted that in /r/openttd
12:31:04  <Ristovski> repost from /r/montageparodies
12:31:08  <LordAro> i never bothered clicking on the link, i just saw the title :L
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12:36:20  <LordAro> yeah, ok, that's... a bit odd
12:46:01  <zooks> can I replace one sprite in the base graphics with another one or can you only replace by realsprites?
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12:46:57  <zooks> something like this: replace(1004) {sprite: 4061}
12:50:22  <planetmaker> probably should work
12:50:52  <zooks> nmlc: "input", line 10: Syntax error, unexpected token "4061"
12:51:34  <planetmaker> right. does not work ;-)
12:52:42  <zooks> Hmm too bad
12:53:13  <planetmaker> maybe, you tell us about what you try to achieve
12:53:42  <planetmaker> more broadly than "replace X with Y"
12:53:53  <zooks> Something trivial, replace map edge with water
12:54:05  <zooks> just for fun
12:54:20  <planetmaker> he, yeah. Not so trivial then indeed
12:54:39  <planetmaker> also... OpenGFX knows two kinds of water ;-)
12:54:45  <LordAro> i'm fairly sure i've seen a(n old) grf which did that
12:54:53  <planetmaker> ^
12:54:58  <LordAro> i think it was from the pre-land-borders era
12:55:06  <planetmaker> I think so, too
12:55:06  <LordAro> so it worked better :L
12:55:20  <zooks> yeah, thats what I tried to recreate
12:55:33  <V453000> that newGRF was fun actually :)
12:56:14  <planetmaker> it's really hard to make that NewGRF when you want to ensure that the water's without border
12:56:43  <planetmaker> But actually that might indeed be good. Take any water sprite (e.g. OpenGFX' river water) and replace that black tile by it
12:56:53  <planetmaker> then it's water, slightly different water and it should be fine
12:57:06  <planetmaker> as you then even know where the maps end
12:57:34  <planetmaker> except in the case where s/o creates a massive lake at height != 0
12:58:24  <V453000> how could you make a lake at height different than 0
12:58:59  <planetmaker> scenario editor?
12:59:08  <planetmaker> or canals
12:59:20  <Alberth> terraforming
13:00:47  <V453000> you mean rivers?
13:01:38  <planetmaker> lakes technically consist of river or canal tiles, yes.
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13:39:26  <LordAro> that's annoying, ksp is crashing on me in the map view screen
13:39:39  <LordAro> it's like the computer is trying to make me revise or something :L
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13:44:15  <NGC3982> Morning.
13:46:42  <LordAro> hi american
13:46:45  <LordAro> :p
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14:12:28  <samu> hi, what is network.sync_freq?
14:13:04  <samu> when someone joins my game, they complain they get dropped because they didn't have enough time to download map
14:14:02  <Alberth>
14:14:41  <samu> 65535?
14:14:46  <samu> i thought it was 32000
14:14:57  <Alberth> no idea at all
14:15:17  <NGC3982> LordAro: Wat.
14:15:59  <LordAro> ?
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14:17:48  <samu> max init time, max join time, max download time, max password time, max lag time - they're all 32000
14:18:02  <samu> frame_freq, I changed to 5
14:18:10  <samu> sync_freq - don't know what it does
14:19:45  <samu> pause on join is on
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14:21:23  <samu> wiki search results nothing about network.sync_freq
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14:26:57  <samu> console says min 0, max 32000
14:27:05  <samu> wiki says 65535
14:27:09  <samu> which one is correct?
14:27:24  <LordAro> console, probably
14:29:12  <samu> oki, thx
14:29:30  <samu> i bet it was frame_freq
14:29:40  <samu> im setting this to 100
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14:32:51  <michi_cc> samu: I bet you more it's not.
14:33:36  <samu> :(
14:33:36  <michi_cc> And I assume that waiting 3.3 seconds before an action is executed isn't what you want either.
14:34:53  <samu> ah... my lag is minimum 200
14:34:59  <samu> ms
14:35:13  <samu> what number do I put in frame_freq
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14:36:55  <samu> nevermind, today it's more
14:37:16  <samu> 272 ms min
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14:43:07  <samu> how did you calculate that?
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14:47:20  <zooks> WIP:
14:49:15  <planetmaker> what happened to the landscape, zooks ?
14:50:21  <samu> oh, fat roads
14:51:19  <samu> and something between
14:51:23  <samu> rail?
14:52:02  <planetmaker> guardrail
14:52:47  <samu> looks like some avenue in Lisbon
14:53:11  <samu> ah no... then not
14:53:33  <samu> there's train lines between the roads
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15:05:13  <samu> is that only one way?
15:06:19  <samu> road 1 ->
15:06:25  <samu> road 2 <-
15:06:56  <samu> rails ->
15:07:12  <samu> rails <-
15:07:30  <samu> road 3 <-
15:07:34  <samu> road 4 ->
15:07:40  <samu> sorry, looks like im spamming
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15:17:27  <samu> how do I negate the advantage of multiple engines going on hills when I set up a game? very difficult to circumvent this advantage. :/
15:18:01  <Rubidium> use original acceleration?
15:18:20  <samu> i am using realistic this time
15:18:53  <samu> steepness 10% works for 1 engine
15:19:01  <Rubidium> it was a rhetorical question
15:19:03  <samu> when they make 2, steepness looks like nothing
15:19:26  <Rubidium> or crank up cargo weight multiplication (but that doesn't work for pax)
15:20:12  <samu> yeah sometimes I just feel like putting 255x weight just for the sake of it
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15:29:00  <MNIM> Samu: How short are your trains?
15:29:20  <samu> 5 tiles
15:29:57  <MNIM> Well duh, of course.
15:30:07  * MNIM works with 14-tilers.
15:30:29  <MNIM> Good luck trying to get those up 10% slopes.
15:31:18  <samu> im ninja'ing someone company and remove their 2nd engines
15:32:13  <samu> 2engines negating turns
15:32:35  <samu> 88 km/h  the whole turn
15:32:37  <samu> :(
15:33:34  <samu> steepness doesn't work with original, no matter what % it looks the same
15:34:28  <MNIM> bleh, original
15:35:37  <samu> original is still harder even for 2 engines
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15:39:47  <samu> im gonna check these trains incomes next year, using original accel
15:39:52  <samu> brb
15:42:22  <samu> hmm, i selected SimpleAI as the only AI, and I'm getting Chopper?
15:43:44  <samu> do human players took SimpleAI slot?
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15:48:03  <SineTheCreator> samu: i like realistic accel
15:48:12  <SineTheCreator> even if it's easier, etc.
15:48:22  <samu> i like it too for steepness
15:48:22  <SineTheCreator> either way it's more fun for me
15:49:25  <samu> but on flat terrain
15:49:27  <samu> I hate it
15:55:48  <samu> the graphs are very telling
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15:56:21  <samu> blue is using single engines
15:56:28  <samu> pink is using 2 engines
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15:59:52  <samu> pink performance increased when switched to original accel, blue went down really deep
16:00:02  <samu> think i need another year
16:03:24  <samu> blue, down from £170.000 train income to £104.000
16:07:25  <SineTheCreator> samu: why do you need two engines with five cars?
16:07:37  <samu> not me, someone on my game
16:07:47  <SineTheCreator> oh. using default train set?
16:08:05  <samu> realistic accel
16:08:07  <samu> vs original
16:08:09  <planetmaker> hm, I haven't seen anyone do any AI work lately...
16:08:15  <SineTheCreator> yeah, but default trains or newgrf set?
16:08:21  <samu> default of course
16:08:24  <SineTheCreator> :/
16:08:43  <SineTheCreator> samu: try a set like american renewal to see a huge difference. some sets handle accel differently
16:09:03  <SineTheCreator> the default set actually handles it rather poorly compared to some realistic sets in my experience
16:09:38  <samu> newgrfs :8
16:09:46  <SineTheCreator> it's just one set
16:09:49  <SineTheCreator> er, one newgrf
16:09:57  <SineTheCreator> it's not like you need 12,000 :D
16:10:15  <SineTheCreator> there are renewal sets for UK and euro trains as well, and i'm sure other regions
16:10:31  <SineTheCreator> i'm american so i play with the american set and american roads/signals
16:10:39  <samu> i try in single player
16:10:41  <LordAro> planetmaker: :(
16:11:04  <SineTheCreator> yeah give it a shot before judging :D it makes the game more difficult but also more interesting
16:11:09  <samu> i doubt anyone will join
16:11:15  <samu> but will try
16:11:22  <SineTheCreator> trains become less about 'what year they came out' and more about what their specific nich is
16:11:25  <SineTheCreator> niche*
16:11:43  <planetmaker> can I actively *exclude* some AIs from being chosen as random opponent?
16:11:55  <planetmaker> (other than deleting them)
16:12:01  <SineTheCreator> for example the american renewal set has trains starting from the mid-1800's, and none of them are decidedly 'better' than another when it comes to cost vs. speed and power
16:12:08  <SineTheCreator> but each engine is designed for a specific task
16:12:18  <SineTheCreator> managing this you can get some really unique and fun networks going :D
16:12:39  <LordAro> planetmaker: other than changing their info.nut, no
16:13:11  <SineTheCreator> for example if you want to pull 4 or 6 cars you can use a less powerful engine that is cheaper. but for a 15 car train you'll need a more expensive and powerful engine, or multiple engines. but all engines may go the same speed, etc.
16:13:24  <samu> yummi, borkai v12, that is a new version
16:13:28  <planetmaker> sounds like a useful configuration. Hint @ LordAro :-P
16:13:45  <SineTheCreator> samu: what is borkai?
16:13:46  <samu> american renewal
16:13:55  <samu> downloading that
16:13:58  <LordAro> i'll add it to my list of potential features i could make :P
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16:14:41  <planetmaker> I imagine a list of "available AIs" with a checkbox "use as random AI" somewhere
16:14:51  <samu> it's an AI that builds bus stations on every road tile
16:15:02  <SineTheCreator> samu: if american trains arent your taste give the UK renewal a try as well :D
16:15:29  <SineTheCreator> samu: these trains are A LOT MORE EXPENSIVE than the default set, but this is by design. turn inflation off to make it manageable.
16:15:37  <LordAro> planetmaker: i'd have thought so, but would that list have to be saved with the game? or would it be a global setting?
16:15:43  <SineTheCreator> profits are also potentially higher so it balances out
16:16:00  <SineTheCreator> samu | it's an AI that builds bus stations on every road tile <-- ugh :/
16:16:20  <samu> turn off buses and it's a decent one
16:16:55  <SineTheCreator> planetmaker: that's a good idea
16:17:09  <SineTheCreator> i'm surprised OTTD doesn't have that yet
16:17:56  <LordAro> planetmaker: add it to the wiki todo list, so it doesn't get forgotten :)
16:18:39  <SineTheCreator> do you guys play with AIs alot? i never have
16:18:53  <samu> yes
16:19:07  <samu> it appears the reserved AI slot is not reserved at all
16:19:14  <LordAro> not hugely - they always mess up the road networks...
16:19:19  <samu> a human player took over SimpleAI slot
16:19:24  <LordAro> including my own AI :L
16:19:27  <SineTheCreator> LordAro: i've heard that, yeah
16:20:19  <SineTheCreator> i mostly play by myself these days. i would play multiplayer but i prefer relaxing co-op games and none of the active servers seem to have that going on
16:20:52  <planetmaker> LordAro, I believe it should be a user setting
16:20:53  <LordAro> yeah, if you want co-op you should try openttdcoop
16:21:01  <LordAro> wait, you said 'relaxing'
16:21:02  <LordAro> :P
16:21:11  <SineTheCreator> LordAro: no, openTTDcoop is a bit TOO into it
16:21:17  <planetmaker> hey, we relax there, lobster ;-)
16:21:21  <planetmaker> gaaaaah!
16:21:21  <SineTheCreator> they have strict rules on track designs, station designs, etc
16:21:24  <LordAro> lol
16:21:26  <SineTheCreator> i like to do things my own way
16:21:41  <planetmaker> it used to work for you to type 'lor<tab>'
16:21:51  <SineTheCreator> i don't care if a roro station is less efficient so long as it's fun to watch/build
16:22:15  <LordAro> planetmaker: :p
16:22:25  <SineTheCreator> LordAro | wait, you said 'relaxing' <-- yeah, exactly :D
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16:22:48  <notlobster> better :P
16:22:50  <notlobster> ?
16:22:54  <planetmaker> :D
16:23:18  <SineTheCreator> lol
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16:24:21  <SineTheCreator> are there any co-op AIs yet?
16:25:06  <planetmaker> no
16:25:11  <SineTheCreator> LordAro: oh and another thing - i like to spend more than a few hours on a multiplayer game
16:25:28  <planetmaker> nor is playing in an AI company exactly supported
16:25:34  <SineTheCreator> when i started playing openttd i played with some friends and we'd work on a map for weeks before starting over
16:25:45  <SineTheCreator> planetmaker: that's a shame :(
16:25:59  <planetmaker> well. you can do that. But... AI has no way to know what you did
16:26:04  <SineTheCreator> right
16:26:12  <planetmaker> thus would constantly need to re-assess his own ressources etc
16:26:25  <SineTheCreator> which uses lots of CPU and wastes time
16:26:29  <planetmaker> thus making it much more challanging for itself where it can do all the accounting
16:26:32  <planetmaker> kinda, yes
16:26:41  <samu> american set, do i use realistic acceleration or original?
16:26:47  <planetmaker> he doesn't know its stations, its tracks, its money...
16:26:55  <SineTheCreator> samu: you can use either, but realistic is more interesting to play
16:26:56  <planetmaker> its vehicle orders
16:27:06  <samu> oki, realistic
16:27:19  <SineTheCreator> for these trains tractive effort and amount of power/weight actually mean something practical :D
16:27:21  <planetmaker> SineTheCreator, you might find the stable / Welcome server of #openttdcoop enjoyable, though
16:27:38  <planetmaker> people there, you can play alone, you need not...
16:27:48  <SineTheCreator> hrm, okay :D thanks. i'll give it a shot
16:28:03  <planetmaker> not competitive, just co-existing companies :-)
16:28:05  <SineTheCreator> yeah
16:28:17  <SineTheCreator> that's fine with me too
16:28:22  <samu> i put denver & rio grande, it says it likes NARS
16:28:27  <samu> k let's see
16:28:33  <SineTheCreator> i just hate the whole "you've got one hour, get to mil" crap :/
16:29:18  <LordAro> samu: denver & rio grande has never been very successful - it was more of a pathfinder demonstration than anything else
16:29:26  <planetmaker> ^^
16:30:19  <LordAro> trAIns on the other hand...
16:30:53  <samu> wow this list is big, not familiar with any of them
16:30:56  <samu> engines
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16:31:22  <LordAro> it was written for a dissertation, and is extremely god at what it does, if it is a little slow
16:31:30  <LordAro> *good :L
16:32:47  <SineTheCreator> samu: yeah, the american renewal includes a ton of engines from all eras
16:32:50  <SineTheCreator> the list is massive
16:32:59  <SineTheCreator> it also includes realistic cars
16:33:29  <SineTheCreator> note that you may need to refit a car to handle a certain kind of cargo. pay special attention to the car descriptions
16:33:55  <SineTheCreator> some trains can also be regeared, you do this at the depot or automatically via orders
16:34:24  <SineTheCreator> LordAro: 'god' may be the correct term depending on your meaning :D
16:34:34  <LordAro> that's true :)
16:34:34  <SineTheCreator> if it's VERY good at what it does, i think god is sufficient
16:35:01  <LordAro> it's the only AI that build 'true' double rails
16:35:08  <SineTheCreator> wow
16:35:23  <SineTheCreator> i figured AIs had come a long way by now
16:35:27  <SineTheCreator> i just never use any
16:37:06  <planetmaker> LordAro, there, new 'easy' task in the todo list
16:37:11  <samu> i bought a lima class
16:37:21  <samu> it doesn't like passenger car
16:37:28  <samu> how do I fix it
16:37:54  <planetmaker> get newgrf code. change newgrf code. compile newgrf. reload game
16:38:11  <samu> i hear a noise
16:38:22  <samu> ah, it's a sound effect
16:38:50  <samu> electric iterurban works
16:38:51  <samu> nice
16:39:19  <samu> they make a noise while moving
16:39:26  <samu> interesting
16:39:46  <SineTheCreator> samu: use a different engine perhaps?
16:39:53  <SineTheCreator> samu: pay attention to the engine descriptions
16:40:03  <SineTheCreator> it tells you which cargos engines are designed for
16:40:14  <SineTheCreator> a great many are designed for passengers and have steam heating and such
16:40:20  <samu> suitable for steep hills
16:40:39  <SineTheCreator> in that case pick one with a lot of power and tractive effort
16:41:32  <samu> engine description says suitable for: steep hills
16:41:33  <SineTheCreator> pax is a good place to start when using these trains
16:41:39  <SineTheCreator> there ya go :D
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16:41:50  <samu> but i couldn't attach a passenger car
16:42:12  <SineTheCreator> hm. sometimes trains are only suitable for freight but they don't specify
16:42:26  <SineTheCreator> sometimes they only accept a certain type of passenger car
16:42:28  <samu> ah, i see
16:42:40  <SineTheCreator> make sure you try to 'sort by cargo type -> passenger
16:42:42  <SineTheCreator> '
16:42:45  <samu> i will buy random engines and see if one works
16:43:09  <SineTheCreator> brb
16:43:09  <samu> 2-8-0 consolidation works
16:44:31  <samu> great it works
16:44:38  <samu> it instantly accelerated to 88 km/h though
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16:45:52  <SineTheCreator> do you have fast-forward on?
16:45:57  <samu> no
16:46:02  <SineTheCreator> how many cars?
16:46:16  <SineTheCreator> oh, km/h
16:46:21  <SineTheCreator> i thought you said mph :D
16:46:24  <samu> 4, train size is 3.7
16:46:28  <samu> or 2.7
16:46:33  <SineTheCreator> that's not much
16:46:48  <SineTheCreator> a consolidation can probably handle 10 cars quite easily
16:47:02  <samu> really? oh wow
16:47:13  <SineTheCreator> oh yes, these engines are designed for long trains
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16:47:25  <SineTheCreator> you can run short trains but economically they are designed for long trains
16:47:31  <samu> let me increase station
16:48:08  <SineTheCreator> a station length of 6 tiles is enough for 8 cars + a caboose on most freight trains
16:48:24  <SineTheCreator> oh and freight trains require a caboose if they are longer than a few cars
16:48:27  <SineTheCreator> realism :D
16:48:49  <samu> imba-lism
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16:49:41  <SineTheCreator> the thing to remember here is that some trains may have a low top speed but tons of torque, so they get there quite fast even with heavy loads
16:49:45  <samu> 6.7 train size, need to change settings
16:50:32  <SineTheCreator> oh and obviously the caboose does not need to be 'in' a station to unload properly
16:50:37  <SineTheCreator> i mean the speed of unloading
16:51:05  <samu> denver is beating me
16:51:06  <SineTheCreator> so you can build caboose'd freight haulers that are slightly longer than the station
16:51:07  <samu> the AI
16:52:05  <samu> max train size, how many tiles?
16:52:09  <samu> default says 7 tiles
16:52:47  <samu> ... ok, 64 tiles
16:52:55  <LordAro> denver is beating you??
16:53:05  <samu> ye
16:53:11  <LordAro> are you playing on a completely flat map?
16:53:12  <LordAro> :P
16:53:37  <samu> hmm it looks like 30% water, and rest is flat
16:54:03  <samu> terragenesis ...
16:54:42  <samu> increasing this train size
16:55:03  <Mazur> Folks, take it to a dedicate game channel, this channel is not intended for any particular game chat, but for maintenance and development of the client.
16:55:20  <Mazur> Thank you.
16:55:43  <LordAro> umm, what?
16:56:54  <LordAro> Mazur: i think you want
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16:58:10  <samu> aha, I see
16:58:57  <samu> it doesn't go to top speed now
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17:01:55  <planetmaker> LordAro, being beaten by an AI. Depends on the time scale. For t < 10 years: might even be likely, if you prefert to build nice networks yourself
17:02:16  <planetmaker> but once the network effect kicks in: then you win. you win big time
17:02:32  <planetmaker> but win... if you define "winning" in terms of operational profit
17:03:21  <samu> these carriages have multiple colors yet they're the same?
17:03:21  <LordAro> planetmaker: true, but denver usually screws up its first route, then just sits there waiting for money :L
17:03:47  <planetmaker> yeah, maybe. I removed it long ago from my list of AIs
17:04:44  <samu> they're doing good
17:04:50  <samu> denver 4 trains
17:04:56  <samu> they all profit
17:05:17  <samu> profit higher than my 1 train
17:07:20  <samu> denver picked 50 boxcar
17:07:37  <samu> do the different colors mean something?
17:10:45  <samu> i dont understand these colors
17:12:03  <LordAro> probably not
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17:26:15  <samu> why do some wagons get different colors
17:30:17  <glx> probably random stuff for more realism
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17:45:01  <samu> regearing
17:45:25  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25316 /trunk/src/lang (3 files in 2 dirs) (2013-06-02 17:45:15 UTC)
17:45:26  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:27  <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 34 changes by RunisLabs
17:45:29  <DorpsGek> macedonian - 1 changes by Ristovski
17:45:30  <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 26 changes by cuthbert
17:46:37  <samu> there is nothing that carries livestock?
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17:50:04  <Alberth> depends on your vehicle sets
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17:52:20  <samu> so many trains and wagons, and there's none for livestock :(
17:52:28  <samu> how do I fix it?
17:52:42  <Rubidium> maybe read about refitting on the wiki?
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17:53:09  <samu> i sorted by livestock, it's empty
17:58:00  <samu> is it intended or did I screw something?
18:01:05  <Alberth> I think those two options are not mutually exclusive :p
18:01:43  <Alberth> obviously, when the vehicle set does not provide livestock transport, it is intended
18:02:22  <Alberth> either because at the time of creating that set, therewas no such need, or the author did not consider it important, or some other reason
18:02:37  <planetmaker> Alberth, absence of a possibility does not imply intention
18:02:39  <planetmaker> ;-)
18:02:59  <Alberth> the author could also have forgotten about it
18:03:03  <planetmaker> as in "some other reason" = bug :-)
18:03:06  <Alberth> planetmaker: happy now? :)
18:03:16  * planetmaker is happy
18:03:24  * Alberth is happy too
18:03:29  <planetmaker> setting refits properly is a bitch in NewGRF terrain
18:03:58  <planetmaker> easy to miss a single possibility in the HUGE list
18:04:05  <Alberth> samu: for some sets, therere are addition newgrfs that add transport options for newer industry newgrfs
18:04:13  <planetmaker> especially if you want it realistically ;-)
18:04:53  <samu> i am using this only
18:05:02  <samu> the nars
18:05:17  <samu> v 2.03
18:06:33  <samu> North American Renewal Set
18:08:29  <Alberth> too realistic for me :)
18:14:55  <V453000> :P
18:26:54  <samu> aha, 1961
18:27:01  <samu> modern livestock
18:28:15  <V453000> does NARS have any era when animal wagons are missing?
18:28:23  <samu> yes
18:28:30  <V453000> amazing
18:28:31  <samu> 1950-1961 at least
18:28:34  <V453000> good train set
18:29:17  <V453000> you could always turn vehicles_never_expire on though
18:31:17  <samu> no livestock for maglev
18:31:30  <samu> oil
18:31:41  <samu> wow, there's many missing cars in maglev
18:32:08  <samu> well I guess it's intended
18:32:37  <V453000> that is intended
18:32:48  <V453000> if you consider it missing, I suggest trying NUTS though :P
18:38:18  <samu> cattle car
18:38:56  <V453000> nuts is a train set
18:39:11  <V453000> though with the amount of focus on animals you could almost call it a cattle car :P
18:39:54  <samu> cattle car disappeared in 1921
18:42:17  <samu> modern livestock car appears in 1961
18:42:35  <samu> 40 years without livestock cargo
18:43:50  <V453000> yep, not all train sets are meant to be actually played with as you can see
18:44:19  <samu> downloading nuts unrealistic train set
18:46:19  <V453000> might come in handy
18:46:20  <Alberth> or perhaps not to be played with as you see it :)
18:47:08  <samu> there is no passengers
18:47:10  <samu> hmmm :o
18:47:20  <samu> nevermind, there are
18:47:28  <samu> the filter was set to livestock
18:47:30  <Alberth> "Vehicles never expire - on"  :D
18:48:05  <Alberth> I break a lot of your rules, it seems, V :)
18:48:35  <V453000> NUTS vehicles cant expire :)
18:48:51  <V453000> those arent rules but suggestions :)
18:49:21  <V453000> if you make your fast train classes useless with weight multiplier, not my problem :P
18:53:41  <samu> 80 passengers a carriage though it says 40
18:55:48  <glx> should be rush hour :)
18:56:07  <V453000> it also probably says that capacity changes based on which engine they are attached to
18:56:56  <samu> rainbow trains... gee...
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19:00:21  <samu> cheap engine £12.000 moves at 150 km/h... this is bad
19:01:32  <planetmaker> samu, NUTS is one of the best-balanced and most complete trainsets there is. It certainly is innovative in many things
19:01:47  <planetmaker> And it certainy is not your pot of tea if you expect a simulation instead of a game
19:02:09  <Alberth> wetrails is not at the wiki yet
19:02:32  <samu> it's 1962 and i have a train going 191 km/h
19:03:15  <planetmaker> the year ... does it have meaning?
19:03:19  <Alberth> openttd citizens value speedy delivery
19:04:44  <V453000> Alberth: they will be once they get more friends
19:04:50  <V453000> also there isnt really much to write about that :D
19:05:06  <frosch123> night
19:05:08  <Alberth> haven't yet tried them
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19:05:10  <Alberth> night frosch123
19:05:15  <Alberth> damn!
19:12:09  <samu> sorry, i dont like this
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19:21:46  <Alberth> samu: it's a great set if you want to concentrate on building and transporting.
19:22:04  <Alberth> otherwise, you may be better off with a different set
19:23:28  <samu> must find something TTDX like, if it exists
19:23:55  <samu> or rather not use anything
19:24:07  <Alberth> opgfx+trains ?
19:24:32  <samu> let me search
19:24:44  <Alberth> also has ogfx+roadvehicles  and a few other + gfrs
19:25:00  <Alberth> they are intended as enhancements to the default set
19:33:31  <samu> oh, i see autorefit option
19:33:37  <samu> so that's how it works
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19:35:11  <samu> full load any cargo with auto-refit to available cargo
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19:39:32  <opr> hi all :) i was wondering how are you meant to give water to a town with no water tower?
19:40:04  <samu> fund new industry
19:40:04  <Terkhen> hi opr; you need to fund one
19:40:12  <Terkhen> good night
19:40:17  <opr> ahh ok, that's in the local authority thing?
19:40:36  <samu> it's on industry button
19:41:20  <samu> placing it however, is hard to figure out at first
19:42:05  <opr> ah ok i think i get how to do it! but wow it's so expensive
19:43:01  <opr> does anyone want to take a quick look at my server to see if i've done everything properly? i've only just started playing and i bet i've made some dumb mistakes :p
19:44:10  <samu> no
19:45:03  <V453000> lol
19:45:32  <opr> why is my bus stop rating Poor, when I have 4 buses and there are only ever 2-10 passengers waiting and they always get picked up
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19:47:11  <samu> is town small? or is distance very long?
19:48:17  <samu> meh nevermind, what is the server? i join
19:48:24  <opr> i'll pm u
19:50:23  <samu> sec, it's a webiste?
19:50:37  <opr> no that's the IP
19:50:42  <opr> just put that in the add server bit
19:51:59  <samu> where is it?! did it get lost with all the rest ?
19:52:14  <opr> i had to restart my game for it to show up
19:53:20  <samu> ah i found it mixed with all other games
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20:39:13  <Ristovski> fuck, spent 20 mins doing signals and at the end my trains crashed anyways... fml
20:39:45  <planetmaker> :-)
20:49:34  <Ristovski> I will never gonna be able to do signals D:
20:51:35  <Rubidium> good reason to not become a signal engineer in the real world then ;)
20:53:48  <planetmaker> a friend of mine works at TÜV South in the department which issue qualification for rail signal plannings for switchyards, stations, etc....
20:53:57  <planetmaker> Listening to him sometimes is frightening ;-)
20:54:43  <planetmaker> "yes, I can give you permission to use the switchyard. Without trains, that is"
20:54:46  <Rubidium> as long as he isn't the one that gave safety qualifications to the Fyra, he can't be that bad ;)
20:55:24  <LordAro> night all
20:55:30  <planetmaker> night, LordAro
20:56:15  <LordAro> probably won't see me again for the next couple of weeks - exams :/
20:56:28  <LordAro> well, *shouldn't* see me anyway :L
20:57:08  <LordAro> bye
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20:59:43  <Rubidium> is he going to pull an andy?
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21:14:48  <planetmaker> good night
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21:57:11  <samu> question about autorenew
21:57:44  <samu> the replace vehicles with autorenew company setting
21:58:04  <samu> i have a ship
21:58:09  <samu> it's past old age
21:58:27  <samu> but it's not renewing because i also have told to replace it with another model, more expensive
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21:59:21  <samu> damn, it's harder to explain in english
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22:00:38  <samu> gonna try again, I have a MPS ship aged 35 years old when it's max age is 30
22:01:01  <samu> I also have enough money to autorenew it to another MPS
22:01:15  <samu> but it didn't renew
22:01:44  <samu> was that because I also told to replace it with a Bakewell? A more expensive model?
22:02:07  <samu> even though I have the autorenew setting turned on?
22:02:54  <samu> replace MPS ship to Bakewell ship when old?
22:04:24  <samu> sorry, my brain is failing me again
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22:16:32  <samu> oh course it isn't renewing
22:16:57  <samu> it would become new again and have to wait 30 more years to be old
22:17:02  <samu> of*
22:17:34  <samu> my error
22:20:12  <V453000> there isnt any reason to autorenew if you use breakdowns off
22:20:41  <samu> breakdowns are normal
22:21:03  <V453000> breakdowns are wrong :)
22:21:10  <samu> are set to normal
22:21:20  <V453000> none is preferable
22:22:22  <samu> just got the new ship
22:22:26  <samu> the bakewell
22:22:44  <samu> well sorry all
22:23:12  <samu> 6 years past max age with all those breakdowns, I have to be careful with this
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22:47:37  <samu> hmm just noticed ships have too much advantage when infrastructure costs are enabled
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22:53:34  <peter1138> possibly because nobody uses ships
23:00:02  <V453000> aaand infrastructure maintenance isnt the most fortunate thing either :)
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23:45:24  <SineTheCreator> peter1138: i do, but it's rare
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