Log for #openttd on 2nd July 2013:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:20  <Nat_aS>
00:00:44  <Nat_aS> so death seems to be the current maintainer
00:00:51  <Nat_aS> or at least most current
00:03:19  <Nat_aS> he dosn't ever hang out here does he?
00:06:13  <Supercheese> I could try to edit it
00:06:31  <Supercheese> what's the license?
00:07:20  <Nat_aS> can't find one on the site
00:07:52  <Supercheese> GPL
00:07:54  <Supercheese> according to Banananananaanas
00:08:38  <Eddi|zuHause> well, if it's GPL, the sourcecode must be available
00:09:27  <Supercheese> indeed...
00:09:31  <Supercheese> I can't find them :\
00:10:08  <Nat_aS> looking at death's form posts, his last was in 2012, but before that was just a few off topic form posts from 09
00:10:20  <Nat_aS> so it's maintained by people who are rarely avalable
00:11:32  <Supercheese> no sources available is a problem for GPL though
00:12:06  <Nat_aS> so no source code and no active supporters
00:14:01  <Nat_aS> uzurpator is more active though
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02:20:12  <Supercheese> I can't seem to compile r25551
02:20:18  <Supercheese> it complains about grf_layout.cpp
02:21:46  <Supercheese> sorry, .h not .cpp
02:25:17  <Supercheese> Cannot open include file: 'layout/ParagraphLayout.h': No such file or directory
02:26:32  <Supercheese> something to do with ICU, whatever that is
02:27:01  <Eddi|zuHause> ICU is what draws weird languages
02:27:24  <Eddi|zuHause> like things that go backwards or connect letters
02:28:05  <Supercheese> Guess I need to remove WITH_ICU eh
02:30:16  <Supercheese> Ugh, 100°F here
02:30:28  <Supercheese> and it's 7:30 PM
02:31:12  <Eddi|zuHause> what
02:31:17  <Eddi|zuHause> 's that in real units?
02:31:22  <Supercheese> I dunno
02:31:28  <Supercheese> 38°C maybe
02:31:39  <Supercheese> ±1
02:34:07  <Supercheese> Hmm, perhaps OTTD useful has updated?
02:34:14  <Supercheese> I seem to suddenly be missing libraries
02:48:15  <Eddi|zuHause> quite possibly
02:48:39  <Eddi|zuHause> (why do i hear a doctor who voice when saying that?)
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03:42:23  <Supercheese> yep, new libraries
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08:50:43  <dihedral> good morning
09:01:39  <NGC3982> Morning
09:01:54  <NGC3982> 38?
09:01:56  <NGC3982> Jeez.
09:06:00  <dihedral> that's what i have in my server room :-P - nah - just kidding
09:06:50  <Xaroth|Work> mornin dih
09:10:06  <NGC3982> dihedral: Speaking of, i really need to clean my OpenTTD server.
09:10:26  <NGC3982>
09:10:29  <NGC3982>
09:11:11  <NGC3982> It accumulates so much dust, you wouldn't believe. And the average temperature rises one or two celcius every fortnight.
09:11:25  <Xaroth|Work> could use a good hoovering
09:11:35  <NGC3982> Indeed.
09:13:14  <dihedral> what would you expect with that fan? :-P
09:15:21  <Xaroth|Work> you'd almost think it'd lift off.
09:34:36  <dihedral> that's what i think when the netapp in the server room boots :-P
09:35:19  <Xaroth|Work> i've had the displeasure of having to stand next to a few blades during a power cycle
09:35:25  <Xaroth|Work> i was glad I had earplugs in
09:35:34  <Xaroth|Work> I was not so glad that those earplugs didn't really help that much
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09:36:36  <dihedral> be glad they did not suck you in :-P
09:38:47  <Xaroth|Work> I was at the hot end
09:38:53  <Xaroth|Work> so more like blown out of the window
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11:30:07  <MNIM> Hmmmh
11:30:18  <MNIM> I would like to notify people that is not responding
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11:33:23  * MNIM pokes Supercheese
11:37:29  <Xaroth|Work> MNIM: works here on one system (home), not at the other(work)
11:38:10  <Xaroth|Work> so I'd suspect peering issues
11:38:44  <MNIM> hmmmhm :?
11:39:19  <Xaroth|Work> peering issues
11:40:02  * MNIM peers at openttd
11:40:52  <Xaroth|Work>
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13:21:29  <Belugas> hello
13:28:51  <__ln__> bon
13:32:43  <__ln__> does anyone have anything against Cologne? (also known as Köln)
13:33:02  <Sacro> So the new russian patchpack has removed the COPYING text file
13:33:08  <Sacro> GPL violation much?
13:33:33  <__ln__> you should write to the free software foundation.
13:33:39  <Sacro> I shall
13:33:44  <Sacro> CC Hans Zimmerman
13:37:49  <Eddi|zuHause> or you could try to teach russians about copyright
13:41:08  <planetmaker> simpler would be to teach people about using 'make bundle'
13:41:32  <planetmaker> but not as ... efficient
13:42:23  <__ln__> is this Quer-durchs-Land-Ticket something new?
13:42:38  <Eddi|zuHause> not particularly...
13:43:31  <planetmaker> __ln__, cologne is the city for the queer and gay ;-)
13:43:39  <Eddi|zuHause> "Das Quer-durchs-Land-Ticket war zunÀchst wÀhrend einer Pilotphase vom 1. August 2009 bis zum 31. Januar 2010 erhÀltlich. Seit dem 13. Dezember 2010 bietet es die Deutsche Bahn mit verÀnderten Konditionen wieder an."
13:44:41  <Eddi|zuHause> so it's "new" if you haven't travelled by train in the last 5 years :)
13:46:11  <Eddi|zuHause> the similar "schönes-wochenende-ticket" is even older
13:46:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but only valid on weekends (saturday or sunday)
13:46:39  <__ln__> yeah, that one i was aware of already.
13:47:03  <Eddi|zuHause> particularly cheap way to travel if you're in a group and have a lot of time
13:49:26  <Eddi|zuHause> (because you can't use long-distance-trains which usually provide the fast connections)
13:50:12  <__ln__> i've used lÀnder-tickets in a group for that purpose a few times
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14:30:55  <MNIM> Hmmmh
14:31:03  <MNIM> time to look for some inspiration for a junction
14:31:47  <MNIM> wtf.
14:31:59  <MNIM> isn't responding to me either
14:34:27  <Xaroth|Work> as I said before
14:34:30  <Xaroth|Work> I suspect peering issues
14:42:37  <peter1139> traceroute
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16:22:11  <Terkhen> hello
16:23:14  <frosch123> hola terkhen :)
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16:59:25  <planetmaker> good evening
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17:03:00  <Terkhen> hi planetmaker and frosch123
17:08:53  <adit> good evening :)
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17:12:33  <frosch123> all the kids are coming home from school
17:15:01  <Rubidium> hi daddy ;)
17:16:10  <frosch123> i can't be kid? :(
17:16:30  <Rubidium> isn't by definition everyone a child?
17:17:16  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on your definitions of "everyone" and "child", probably
17:17:53  * Rubidium thinks of DAGs
17:18:07  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what that is
17:18:21  <frosch123> watch "git for 4 years and up"
17:18:47  <frosch123> +olds
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17:45:38  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25552 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-07-02 17:45:30 UTC)
17:45:39  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:40  <DorpsGek> russian - 39 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:45:41  <DorpsGek> slovak - 19 changes by Milsa
17:45:42  <DorpsGek> swedish - 1 changes by Joel_A
17:45:43  <DorpsGek> thai - 3 changes by nirakanz
17:45:44  <DorpsGek> turkish - 4 changes by emremeydan
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18:01:17  <Alberth> o/
18:15:25  <planetmaker> hallo Alberth
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18:57:32  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25553 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-07-02 18:57:26 UTC)
18:57:33  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5530]: provide a warning when no vehicles are available, and tell what to do in that case
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19:09:30  <Milaga> I am not sure I understand the ECS industries. All of my industries have petered out in 10 years. I have trains that don't turn a profit anymore.
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19:12:28  <Pinkbeast> Milaga: ECS primary extraction industries do gradually taper away to nothing, yes.
19:12:36  <planetmaker> ecs industries are... harder to master. did you read the wiki on ecs industries?
19:12:48  <planetmaker> and ^^ what pinkbeast says
19:12:49  <Pinkbeast>
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19:13:13  <Pinkbeast> Also you've got the stockpiles to contend with which are a terrible fit with OTTD's dispatch model
19:14:10  <planetmaker> does it get better with cargodist enabled?
19:14:27  <Nat_aS> Everything is better with cargodist
19:14:51  <fonsinchen> I heard Cargodist and stock piles don't like each other.
19:15:12  <planetmaker> making money is not better with cargodist
19:15:18  <fonsinchen> Because stations randomly start and stop accepting and producing stuff.
19:17:11  <Pinkbeast> But stockpiles and cargod*st work well together in Simutrans if they could just stop the dispatching industry gobbing up goods at such tremendous speed.
19:21:00  <zooks> fonsinchen, yes, cargodist deletes links when stockpiles cause the station to stop accepting so cargo will get lost all the time in waiting
19:21:29  <zooks> I now turn of stockpiles in my games with ECS
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20:03:13  <__ln__> "FÃŒr nur 1,00 EUR mehr werden Ihre Fahrten mit dem Fernverkehr der Deutschen Bahn zu 100% aus erneuerbaren Energien durchgefÃŒhrt."
20:04:38  <frosch123> try to catch a diesel train, and sue them
20:07:09  <__ln__> also makes one wonder, if the introduction of 100% renewable energy on railways is only a matter of 1€ per passenger, why not include that in everyone's ticket and happily drive with renewables ever after.
20:07:56  <planetmaker> frosch123, "Fernverkehr". I don't think they have diesel engines
20:08:13  <Rubidium> the ICE to Denmark?
20:08:15  <__ln__> they do, to/from copenhagen!
20:08:25  <planetmaker> hm. Good point
20:09:01  <__ln__> but admittedly they may claim it's not a DB train, because it says "DSB" on the train walls.
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20:10:19  <MNIM> ICE actually has a diesel version :P
20:10:28  <Rubidium> alternatively... the ICE/IC going to Amsterdam. Are those classified as "Fernverkehr"?
20:10:42  <__ln__> MNIM: it does
20:10:50  <planetmaker> maybe they run there plant diesel
20:12:37  <MNIM> Oh, right
20:12:54  <MNIM> denmark's IC4 is also built by AnsaldoBreda
20:13:11  <frosch123> planetmaker: aren't there some ic routes with br218?
20:13:20  <MNIM> when will people ever realize that the only thing italian tech is good for is target practice?
20:14:30  <Rubidium> MNIM: but doesn't it always miss their target?
20:14:56  <Rubidium> like the break target
20:16:32  <Alberth> practice makes perfect :p
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20:23:10  <Milaga> Yeah, I read the wiki ... I think the problem is this scenario. All the industries started at 3% or so. Is that bad?
20:24:04  <frosch123> [22:09] <__ln__> but admittedly they may claim it's not a DB train, because it says "DSB" on the train walls <- if 30% of the energy is renewable anyway, why not sell 30% of tickets for 1 € more?
20:24:10  <Milaga> And it doesn't really make sense that renewable resources, like farms, taper off. Seasonal fluxuations are one thing I like, but my whole beer industry has just collapsed!
20:25:08  <Milaga> And yeah, I turned off stockpiles too. Right away I could tell that would be bad, considering how complicated industries are.
20:25:29  <frosch123> [22:07] <__ln__> also makes one wonder, if the introduction of 100% renewable energy on railways is only a matter of 1€ per passenger, why not include that in everyone's ticket and happily drive with renewables ever after. <- actually i wanted to quote that line :p
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20:34:59  <planetmaker> Milaga, the seasonal change is what really buggers me there, too. Maybe it can be changed via parameters, dunno. Or you might want to give another industry set a try in your next game, e.g. FIRS
20:35:39  <__ln__> is there something interesting in Bonn?
20:35:56  <planetmaker> __ln__, yes, the "Haus der Geschichte" is IMHO a very interesting museum
20:36:14  <planetmaker> one of the best I've seen really
20:36:40  <__ln__> hmm, perhaps i should add Bonn to my schedule.
20:36:43  <planetmaker> besides it's a nice town...
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20:37:29  <planetmaker> the Schloss, which is part of the university is also a nice thing to see... with a nice garden
20:37:32  <planetmaker> or park rather
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20:40:21  <planetmaker> __ln__, what's your rough idea of your trip?
20:41:07  <planetmaker> and what's the type of things you want to do / see in general?
20:43:12  <__ln__> the post-braunschweigian idea of my trip is to take a train to köln, stay for 2 nights and see köln and its surroundings, then maybe visit wuppertal and return to hannover airport for one night until flight back home.
20:43:52  <planetmaker> and what stuff do you enjoy doing?
20:44:04  <planetmaker> or seeing? what interests you?
20:44:47  <planetmaker> just sights? Or more like history? Or ... arts? Or churches? Or ... whatever :-)
20:45:04  <frosch123> night
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20:45:18  <__ln__> well i like seeing places and things with historical significance. or just otherwise interesting places.
20:45:37  <__ln__> not churches nor arts primarily. :)
20:45:59  <planetmaker> have you visited Leipzig before?
20:46:21  <planetmaker> biggest terminus station. Völkerschlachtdenkmal. And... well :-)
20:46:22  <__ln__> yes, i have. and its stasi museum.
20:46:29  <planetmaker> ok :-)
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20:47:22  <__ln__> i've also visited the camping area of the city of köln, and seen the cathedral from the distance of several kilometers..
20:47:28  <planetmaker> a nice original town, with many half-timbered houses, oldest barock theatre in Northern Germany is Celle
20:48:11  <planetmaker> used to be one of the residence towns of the Hanovres, aka Windsor
20:48:29  <planetmaker> (and that's why it hasn't been bombed, or so is rumoured)
20:49:19  <__ln__> probably i should also visit wuppertal on my way back, to re-experience the schwebebahn.
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20:57:57  <planetmaker> __ln__, there's many nice small "towns" also along the Rhine. If you are in Bonn, you can even go on a short trip via boat to some.
20:59:24  <MNIM> Ewww, the rhine.
20:59:37  <MNIM> in the netherlands we call that 'the sewer'
21:00:21  <planetmaker> yes... Germany prepares it well. Or maybe Sandoz?
21:00:23  <__ln__> hmm, boat trip, not a bad idea
21:01:12  <MNIM> Not sure, but it seems anything that doesn't originate in our own country seems to have that quality.
21:02:53  <MNIM> Hell, in Antwerpen they still throw the sewage straight into the Schelde sometimes.
21:04:08  <__ln__> well, Antwerpen is in belgium, so..
21:04:18  <planetmaker>
21:05:31  <__ln__> would a dutch person care to explain the reason for the Baarle-Nassau mess?
21:06:02  <MNIM> Which mess specifically?
21:06:16  <MNIM> but yeah, __ln__, that was the point :P
21:06:33  <MNIM> in the netherlands that would probably have caused the fall of another government, at the very least
21:06:48  <MNIM> in belgium? "meh."
21:06:53  <__ln__> the mess that there are tinytiny territories of belgium within netherlands
21:07:00  <MNIM> oooh, right
21:07:03  <MNIM> it gets better
21:07:12  <__ln__> and even territories of netherlands within territories of belgium within netherlands
21:07:18  <MNIM> exactly.
21:07:23  <MNIM> I'm not sure, really.
21:07:31  <MNIM> never dug too deeply into that
21:08:02  <MNIM> easiest explanation I can immediately give you is "Eh, belgium"
21:08:16  <MNIM> (Note, I use that explanation a lot)
21:08:33  <__ln__> having visited belgium myself, i understand that explanation
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21:12:02  <__ln__> if you just conquered those territories, they wouldn't mind, would they?
21:12:16  <Xaroth|Work> the easiest explanation a dutchie would give would be "het zijn belgen"
21:12:34  <MNIM> Xaroth: so yeah, that is exactly what I did XD
21:12:41  <Xaroth|Work> :)
21:13:34  <Xaroth|Work> and belgium and the netherlands used to be one country
21:13:41  <Xaroth|Work> during the seperation things got a bit messed up
21:13:45  <MNIM> you don't need to tell me that >.>
21:13:53  <MNIM> It created belgium
21:14:04  <MNIM> which is the very definition of 'messed up' ;P
21:14:40  <MNIM> Well, what wikipedia tells me on a quick view is that as a result of lots of land-swapping between the dukes of Brabant and Breda as a result of powerplays between the Duke of Brabant and the duke of Holland in the middle ages
21:15:27  <__ln__> there's a belgian territory in the middle of a big field. can i declare that one independent and appoint myself as the king?
21:16:18  <planetmaker> __ln__, sure you can. The question is: will anyone mind?
21:17:00  <Xaroth|Work> the question would be, would belgium be the best place to create an independant nation?
21:17:03  <Xaroth|Work> I mean
21:17:13  <MNIM> and the odd borders that caused remained through the ages in the end to be confirmed by the 1843 treaty of Maastricht which established the borders between the Netherlands and Belgium after the English forced the dutch to back down
21:17:34  <MNIM> So yeah, I'm looking at YOU, england! goddamn meddlers.
21:17:52  <Xaroth|Work> like the dutch never meddled in anything
21:18:06  <MNIM> I swear, England was the USA avant le lettre in terms of meddling with other countries
21:18:09  <Rubidium> they were merely annoying the Netherlands because they were at war at that time
21:18:27  <MNIM> Xaroth: big difference - we only meddle in things we have an economic interest in
21:18:27  <MNIM> :P
21:18:32  <MNIM> we are, after all, the dutch
21:18:41  <Xaroth|Work> you mean we only meddle in things we think we can get a profit out of
21:19:16  * __ln__ is now the king of living in exile
21:19:45  <Xaroth|Work> you konw
21:19:50  <Xaroth|Work> if you fail to paste that h at the end
21:19:52  <Xaroth|Work> you end up in the US
21:21:02  <Xaroth|Work> also, __ln__:
21:21:26  <MNIM> But yeah
21:21:52  <MNIM> I still think we should just nuke the UK of the face of the earth for the 1839 mess.
21:22:45  <michi_cc> __ln__: Depending on how historical it should be, Xanten might also be an option to visit.
21:22:47  <planetmaker> no thanks. The fallout would go straight here
21:23:18  <planetmaker> hm... that reminds me, michi_cc :-) Goslar, the old Kaiserpfalz
21:23:25  <planetmaker> ^ __ln__
21:23:29  <MNIM> planetmaker: you forget we would be in the way, too
21:23:33  <MNIM> but it would be worth it
21:23:44  <MNIM> I swear, that little piece of shit still causes problems.
21:24:40  <Xaroth|Work> __ln__: if you ever get close to amsterdam, try the Amsterdam Dungeon .. fun short thing to do between coffeeshop-hopping and ogling the red light district
21:24:51  <MNIM> besides the fact that it essentially caused the escalation of WW1 (and didn't help at all with WW2)
21:25:36  <Xaroth|Work> planetmaker: depends on the bombs used tbh
21:25:58  <planetmaker> @ __ln__
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21:26:22  <__ln__> Xaroth|Work: i've actually been to amsterdam, but we chose to go to madame tussaud's instead :)
21:26:40  <__ln__> Xaroth|Work: and that was an informative video, i'll bookmark it
21:26:51  <Xaroth|Work> practically next to eachother, that and the dungeon :P
21:26:52  <MNIM> it still forces us to keep the Schelde open to the point of destroying Dutch land, it forces us to maintain a railway between Antwerp and the Ruhr industrial area
21:26:54  <Xaroth|Work> dungeon is more fun though
21:26:57  <Xaroth|Work> it has a rollercoaster...
21:26:58  <Xaroth|Work> indoors
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21:27:48  <MNIM> Though, admittedly, it did keep us out of WW1, I suppose
21:28:19  <__ln__> michi_cc: i'll write that one down too
21:28:22  <MNIM> then again, with belgium attached we probably would have been powerful enough to force the germans to reconsider twice :P
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21:29:04  <Xaroth|Work> MNIM: they are partially french, I'd not expect -that- much from it..
21:29:30  <MNIM> Xaroth: mainly caused by the fucking fact that we had to retreat from it...
21:30:13  <MNIM> belgium was much less francophone than it is now
21:30:19  <Rubidium> a railway between Antwerp and the Ruhr area?
21:30:22  <MNIM> yes
21:30:24  <Rubidium> you mean that piece of nature?
21:30:38  <MNIM> the Iron Rhine.
21:30:44  <MNIM> Rubidium: No, the industries
21:33:13  <Rubidium> I meant the piece of nature between Budel and Vlodrop
21:34:43  <MNIM> ehh. I meant the german area.
21:34:55  <MNIM> that's why I used the german spelling :P
21:35:11  <Rubidium> the Iron Rhine is dead
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21:35:20  <Rubidium> or at least the part in the Netherlands
21:35:49  <planetmaker> good night
21:36:15  <Rubidium> Belgium has to make a decision, but they haven't, so none of the important studies have even been started
21:36:48  <MNIM> good :D
21:37:14  * Rubidium ponders looking up whether that track exists even in their model, and if it does: "is it classified as 'oud ijzer'"?
21:37:44  <Eddi|zuHause> when does belgium ever do decisions?
21:38:05  <Eddi|zuHause> isn't it like every real decision would blow up the government coalition?
21:38:31  <MNIM> pretty much
21:38:43  <MNIM> (then again, the dutch aren't much better at that point)
21:39:07  <MNIM> though it should be mentioned that that at least wouldn't start a civil war over here
21:43:43  <Rubidium> looks like Roermond - Vlodrop is still in the model and not as 'oud ijzer'
21:44:36  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> planetmaker: aren't there some ic routes with br218? <-- to westerland/sylt, but that might not be DB Fernverkehr but DB AutoZug instead. and they ordered new diesel engines which they want to reopen Erfurt-Jena-Gera(-Chemnitz?) as IC line, when the doubledecker wagons are delivered (electrifying that line is apparently delayed due to funding problems)
21:45:16  <Rubidium> ... which 1 EUR per ticket will solve
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21:45:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's more complicated than that :p
21:46:46  <Eddi|zuHause> because rail infrastructure projects like that must be funded by the federal government
21:47:11  <Eddi|zuHause> which is generally short of funds
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21:51:28  <Rubidium> apparantly that br218 also runs near kiel (-> flensburg/luebeck/puttgarden)
21:52:04  <Rubidium> or isn't that far enough for 'fern'?
21:53:00  <Eddi|zuHause> if the train is white with a red line, it's Fernverkehr
21:53:11  <Eddi|zuHause> (most likely)
21:53:58  <Eddi|zuHause> BR 218 are somewhat distributed between the branches of DB
21:54:50  <Eddi|zuHause> (there are also the similar BR 215, 216 and 225. and possibly some others, with minor or major differences)
21:54:56  <Rubidium> the train planner doesn't seem to tell what's DB Fernverkehr
21:55:28  <Eddi|zuHause> if it's IC or ICE, it's Fernverkehr, if it's RB or RE, it's "Regio"
21:55:48  <Rubidium> it's IC, but it's also in the NLs
21:56:22  <Rubidium> and they change the loc
21:57:33  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if you want to power a diesel train with "renewable engery", all you need is 100% "biofuel"
21:58:35  <Rubidium> but here the track owner buys the electricity, and they don't do green... so IC Berlin isn't running on renewable energy here
21:59:38  <Eddi|zuHause> that's more of a marketing gag anyway. there's a % of renewable energy in the "energy mix", and as long as not more % are buying the "green" ticket, nothing changes
22:01:07  <Rubidium> it's not that simple
22:01:24  <Rubidium> each train that has a passenger with a "green" ticket must be 100% green
22:03:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that is the definition they use :p
22:04:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't think they publish any statistics anyway
22:04:35  <Rubidium> "All business travellers registered for the bahn.corporate program will also travel CO2-free on long-distance Deutsche Bahn trains"
22:04:39  <Rubidium> really?
22:04:39  <Eddi|zuHause> plus, the cargo and local trains aren't affected, so they can get more "unrenewable" energy
22:06:29  <Rubidium> "By purchasing electricity directly from renewable sources, DB is preventing any CO2 emissions at all for these long-distance journeys." <- also probably a lie
22:06:47  <Rubidium> at least for bio diesel
22:07:09  <Rubidium> and I doubt wind and solar are enough, so there'll probably be some bio mass stuff as well
22:07:22  <Rubidium> (not to mention the staff)
22:07:32  <Supercheese> hydro?
22:07:53  <Rubidium> don't think there's that much hydro in Germany
22:08:14  <Supercheese> I recall the English specifically going after dams in Germany with their crazy bouncing bombs
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22:09:08  <Rubidium> in 2009: hydro and wind was a whopping combined 1.5%
22:09:14  <Rubidium> hydro at ~0.5%
22:10:31  <Terkhen> good night
22:20:26  <Eddi|zuHause> you have to be careful reading these statistics. there's a difference between total energy mix and electric energy mix, and there is a difference between base power level and peak power level
22:21:55  <Eddi|zuHause> water and wind have a much larger fraction of the peak power level, but almost nothing of the base power level
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22:25:32  <Nat_aS> if you listen to wind and solar fanboys, they always produce peak power, and any obsticles standing in the way will be engineered around sooner or later
22:25:53  <Nat_aS> but any problems with nuclear power are apparently inherent in the system and unacceptable.
22:25:55  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:26:19  <Nat_aS> when oil and coal gets subsides that's bad, but when wind or solar get subsidies it's good
22:30:36  <Eddi|zuHause> so. these are 3 totally unrelated (and unfounded) statements
22:30:42  <Xaroth|Work> I have no issues with the concept of nuclear power
22:30:46  <Xaroth|Work> just.. the implementation of it
22:30:58  <Xaroth|Work> I'd rather prefer a LTFR :|
22:31:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: the point is, when a wind plant explodes, you don't have a 200km zone around it which can't be productively used for the next 100-10000 years
22:31:46  <Nat_aS> well yeah, but the anti-nuke people don't give a shit and are against anything nuclear.
22:31:46  <Xaroth|Work> er, LFTR, even
22:31:48  <Xaroth|Work> I can't spell
22:32:10  <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: neither would you with a LFTR ...
22:32:12  <Nat_aS> Eddi|zuHause: when a hydro plant operates as intended, you have an even bigger km zone unusable
22:32:40  <Nat_aS> also, nobody seems to throw as much of a shit when oil or coal plants contaminate just as much land
22:32:48  <Nat_aS> because it's good old fashioned normal polution
22:32:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i've not seen a 200km radius hydro plant
22:32:55  <Nat_aS> instead of magic invisible death
22:33:10  <Nat_aS> I've not seen a 200km radius meltdown
22:33:23  <Nat_aS> Fukashima and 3 mile island both have failed to cause any measurable deaths
22:33:23  <Eddi|zuHause> plus, there are fish and stuff in the hydro plant
22:33:35  *** Devroush [] has quit []
22:33:36  <Nat_aS> also, fukashima will be safe for human habitation in 2017
22:33:38  <Eddi|zuHause> deaths are besides the point
22:33:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it's an economical disaster
22:33:55  <Nat_aS> wildlife is also flourishing in chernobyl
22:34:10  <Nat_aS> because the presence of humans is worse than radiation
22:34:22  <Nat_aS> Deepwarter horizon is an ecological disaster
22:34:29  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it is
22:34:31  <Nat_aS> Chernobyl is a political one
22:34:55  <Nat_aS> the ecosystem doesn't care about the elevated levels of radiation in chernobyl.
22:35:02  <Nat_aS> there are places on earth that have more radation.
22:35:31  <Eddi|zuHause> sure, it doesn
22:35:40  <Xaroth|Work> point remains that reactors, as they have been built so far, are not really efficient
22:35:42  <Eddi|zuHause> 't matter on an earth-wide scale
22:35:55  <Xaroth|Work> you spend more space on keeping everything in line, than you are producing energy
22:36:02  <Eddi|zuHause> but that doesn't mean it won't have an impact.
22:36:19  <Eddi|zuHause> also "blowing up" is not the only reason why nuclear power is impractical
22:36:24  <Nat_aS> Xaroth|Work: but somehow more energy is produced than any other source of power
22:36:42  <Xaroth|Work> Nat_aS: not really
22:36:48  <Eddi|zuHause> you also have this waste which has to be kept away from people for the next few milennia
22:36:51  <Nat_aS> the energy density for the "inefficient" nuclear plants is still the highest
22:36:54  <Xaroth|Work> a LFTR reactor is much more efficient power wise
22:36:57  <Nat_aS> the waste can be recycled
22:37:03  <Nat_aS> and to be honest
22:37:06  <Xaroth|Work> the waste can not be recycled
22:37:17  <Nat_aS> we won't GET LFTRs unless we invest in neuclear power in general
22:37:18  <Xaroth|Work> it's extremely toxic for hundreds of years
22:37:22  <Eddi|zuHause> the "recycled" waste turns out to be even more dangerous
22:37:31  <Xaroth|Work> we won't get LFTRs if we -do- invest in nuclear power
22:37:42  <Xaroth|Work> because there's quite a monopoly on uranium reactors
22:37:46  <Xaroth|Work> and they want to keep it that way
22:37:50  <Xaroth|Work> except for the chinese
22:37:54  <Eddi|zuHause> and what's this LFTR you're talking about?
22:37:59  <Xaroth|Work>
22:38:07  <Xaroth|Work> basically same concept, only different materials used
22:38:10  <Xaroth|Work> safer, more stable
22:38:16  <Xaroth|Work> very little waste
22:38:40  <Xaroth|Work> (thorium is a few million times more common than uranium)
22:39:12  <Nat_aS> I don't think the uranium reactor lobby is nearly as powerful as you think it is.
22:39:24  <Nat_aS> it's the millions of people who are irratonaly afraid of any kind of reactor
22:39:27  <Nat_aS> no matter how safe
22:39:37  <Nat_aS> that keep LFTR from getting any attention
22:39:43  <Xaroth|Work> people don't matter
22:39:46  <Xaroth|Work> media matters
22:39:53  <Nat_aS> Only old plants melt down,so we should build new ones to replace them
22:39:58  <Nat_aS> but you know why we don't get any new ones
22:39:58  <Xaroth|Work> lobbyists with money can easily twist and turn what the media sais
22:40:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: i don't really see anything that makes it obviously "safer" (in the sense that when it blows up, it won't produce a 200km uninhabitable zone)
22:40:05  <Nat_aS> because people protest new plants
22:40:20  <Nat_aS> Eddi|zuHause: it WON'T blow up
22:40:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see that either
22:40:32  <Nat_aS> it is physicaly imposible
22:40:36  <Xaroth|Work>
22:40:46  <Nat_aS> an explosion would be defying the laws of physics
22:41:06  <Nat_aS> everything in an LFTR operates are atmospheric pressure.
22:41:21  <Xaroth|Work> plus
22:41:28  <Nat_aS> it lacks the features of Heavy water reactors that make them prone to explosions
22:41:39  <Nat_aS> which actualy have NOTHING to do with the radation by the way
22:41:45  <Xaroth|Work> it's easily capable to make a mechanical form of a dumpvalve for it
22:41:45  <Nat_aS> it's the fact that they use hot steam
22:41:51  <Xaroth|Work> ie. if it goes critical for whatever reason
22:42:06  <Xaroth|Work> it will not be dependant of a computer operated system to defuse itself
22:42:51  <Xaroth|Work> iirc that vid shows how
22:42:58  <Eddi|zuHause> EVERY nuclear reactor is CRITICAL. that is the "normal" mode of operation
22:43:22  <Xaroth|Work> critical in operating standards
22:43:32  <Supercheese> critical ≠ supercritical
22:43:48  <Eddi|zuHause> critical = state of sustained chain reaction
22:44:09  <Xaroth|Work> which is nominal operating standards
22:45:06  <Nat_aS> anyways, LFTR is nothing special, there are tons of safe reactor designs, the main problem is you would need the public be willing to allow the construction of new plants
22:45:09  <Nat_aS> which they aren't
22:45:20  <Xaroth|Work> that's because there's a stigma
22:45:21  <Nat_aS> yet at the same time they demand tons of energy to just come out of nowhere
22:45:24  <Xaroth|Work> nuclear != safe
22:45:32  <Xaroth|Work> nuclear == dangerous
22:45:44  <Nat_aS> so in the end they chose fracking
22:45:53  <glx> Xaroth: fusion is safer ;)
22:45:59  <Eddi|zuHause> besides, one of the major problems in fukushima was not the stopping of the chain reaction, but that the remaining radioactive fuel is still producing heat which has to be removed
22:46:04  <Nat_aS> the future of america's power seems to be a mixture of renewables and gas
22:46:17  <Nat_aS> glx: fusion has allways been 50 years away
22:46:24  <Nat_aS> because nobody has invested enough money in it
22:46:28  <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: yes
22:46:34  <Xaroth|Work> you need power to keep a nuclear reactor safe
22:46:45  <Xaroth|Work> a LFTR reactor does not
22:46:45  <Nat_aS> there are passively safe reactors
22:46:56  <Nat_aS> which just shut down when they lose external power
22:47:05  <glx> cooling is rarely passive
22:47:12  <Xaroth|Work> those are all built on electronic systems that keep that in line
22:47:17  <Xaroth|Work> problem with those are
22:47:20  <Xaroth|Work> they tend to crash
22:47:25  <Xaroth|Work> or go apeshit
22:47:36  <Xaroth|Work> that's why you want a mechanical way of safety
22:47:39  <Nat_aS> No
22:47:42  <Nat_aS> PASSIVE SAFETY
22:47:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: again, i see nothing of that sort
22:47:48  <Nat_aS> as in if nothing happens to it
22:47:50  <Nat_aS> it will shut down
22:47:54  <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: have you seen the vid i linked last?
22:47:55  <Nat_aS> no electronics
22:47:58  <glx> Nat_aS: fukushima reactor properly shut down
22:47:58  <Xaroth|Work> they show it
22:48:04  <Nat_aS> it needs an active effort to maintain things
22:48:11  <Xaroth|Work> frozen salt plug, kept frozen under normal circumstances
22:48:12  <glx> but cooling system was broken
22:48:13  <Xaroth|Work> if shit goes bad
22:48:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see vids
22:48:18  <Nat_aS> glx: the fukshima reactor was over 40 years old
22:48:23  <Xaroth|Work> it can't be kept frozen anymore
22:48:28  <Nat_aS> and no, it lost desil power
22:48:37  <Xaroth|Work> as such, plug fails, which results in the thorium flowing to a tank for safety
22:48:38  <Nat_aS> new reactors do not need external power
22:49:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: so and how do you keep the tank cool?
22:49:07  <Xaroth|Work> you don't have to
22:49:29  <Eddi|zuHause> you do. spent fuel has to be actively cooled for at least 5 years
22:50:08  <Xaroth|Work> spent what fuel?
22:50:08  <Eddi|zuHause> making the fuel liquid doesn't magically solve that
22:50:12  <Xaroth|Work> er
22:50:17  <Xaroth|Work> the L in LFTR stands for liquid
22:50:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
22:50:35  <Xaroth|Work> it doesn't need to be a certain temperature to be liquid
22:50:55  <Eddi|zuHause> no, but it has to be certain temperature to NOT BLOW UP
22:51:04  <glx> Xaroth: too much heat may vaporise
22:51:09  <Eddi|zuHause> (as in chemically explode)
22:52:28  <Nat_aS> the fuel won't even reach a temperature to boil.
22:52:34  <Nat_aS> that would be violating the laws of physics
22:53:08  <Nat_aS> another thing anti-nuke people do is pretend anything neuclear is actively malicious and bending the laws of physics just to cause mayhem
22:53:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the fuel is meant to run a steam turbine. of course it produces heat...
22:53:38  <Xaroth|Work> yes
22:53:41  <Xaroth|Work> it runs at 700C
22:53:53  <Xaroth|Work> it won't boil until it goes well above double that
22:54:07  <Eddi|zuHause> it runs at 700°C WHILE HEAT IS ACTIVELY TAKEN OUT
22:54:22  <Nat_aS> just because it produces heat does not mean it will reach a temprature hot enough to boil
22:54:33  <Nat_aS> melting and boiling points are pretty much set in stone
22:54:54  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it does. if you don't dissipate the heat, it will build up
22:56:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you can stop the chain reaction, but you cannot stop the random fission, so even if the plant is shut down, it will continue to produce heat
22:56:35  <alluke> sending farming supplies ~1000 tiles away on hovercrafts
22:57:28  <Eddi|zuHause> STOP WITH THE ON-TOPIC!!
22:58:23  <Nat_aS> the random fusion will not produce nearly as much heat
22:58:30  <Nat_aS> fission rather
22:59:50  <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: the thermal energy generated in such a situation can easily be dispersed by a passive cooling system
23:00:01  <Nat_aS> ^
23:00:01  <Xaroth|Work> i.e. dump the dump-tank into a large quantity of water
23:00:02  <Nat_aS> anywyas
23:00:15  <Nat_aS> I'm looking forward to seeing germany buy neuclear power from france
23:00:22  <Xaroth|Work> as it runs on such a high temperature on normal operation
23:00:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: again, i have seen nothing that would suggest this
23:00:53  <Xaroth|Work> simple physics
23:00:55  <Xaroth|Work> delta-T
23:01:32  <Xaroth|Work> the system would have to generate more thermal energy, than is dissipated by the surface due to newton's law of cooling
23:01:52  <Eddi|zuHause> please tell me how "liquid" fuel suddenly produces less thermal energy than "solid" fuel, which has to be actively cooled for 5 years
23:02:03  <Xaroth|Work> you're missing the point
23:02:08  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i am
23:02:11  <Xaroth|Work> it won't go critical until it reaches 1400C +
23:02:12  <Eddi|zuHause> because you're not making one
23:02:16  <Xaroth|Work> it operates at 700C
23:02:29  <Xaroth|Work> that means it has to generate sufficient thermal energy to go from 700C to 1400C
23:02:48  <Xaroth|Work> while counteracting heat decay
23:02:55  <Nat_aS> Eddi|zuHause: you are doing nothing but making yourself sound supersticious
23:03:20  <Nat_aS> it's like you are imagining nuclear power to be some sort of malicious demon that actively tries to  cause mischief
23:04:24  <Xaroth|Work> and thermal dissipation can be achieved by simply making it a big enough heatsink
23:04:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: no, i'm just discussing a very likely!! scenario of the power dropping out on the cooling system, after the plant shut down for any reason
23:04:51  <Xaroth|Work> it.does.not.need.that.kind.of.cooling
23:04:53  <Nat_aS> Eddi|zuHause: that problem has been solved by NORMAL reactors that are more modern than Fukashima
23:04:59  <Xaroth|Work> it's not a uranium reactor
23:05:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: you.still.did.not.make.this.point
23:05:07  <Nat_aS> there are regular heavy water reactors that have passive cooling systems
23:05:18  <Nat_aS> Fukashima was build in the 60s
23:05:31  <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: I disagree
23:05:52  <Xaroth|Work> it runs on normal atmosphere
23:05:53  <Nat_aS> newer reactors don't have that problem because it was addressed by people more educated than you a long time ago
23:06:02  <Xaroth|Work> all the heat generated by the reaction goes into producing energy
23:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you made this point multiple times, but you have not supplied any kind of data that supports it
23:06:16  <Nat_aS> modern reactors are safe, LFTRs are even safer
23:06:24  <Xaroth|Work> what kind of data do you want?
23:06:48  <Nat_aS> and even unsafe reactors are the safest way to generate power if you go by deaths per KW hour
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23:07:25  <Eddi|zuHause> that a tank of fuel in subcritical condition (i.w. chain reaction shut down) produces less heat than a conventional (spent) fuel rod
23:07:29  <Xaroth|Work> you're sounding like wendy wright :|
23:07:37  <Nat_aS>
23:07:40  <Xaroth|Work> you want something, but you don't state what you want
23:09:01  <Xaroth|Work> and uranium reacts differently, keep that in mind
23:09:49  <Xaroth|Work> that's like asking for proof that an airplane without an engine won't go faster than a submarine
23:10:36  <Xaroth|Work> spent fuel rods emit a high amount of radiation
23:10:57  <Xaroth|Work> which makes them slightly more volatile
23:11:03  <Xaroth|Work> and harder to handle
23:11:43  <Xaroth|Work> most spent fuel rods are stored in large tanks of water
23:11:58  <Xaroth|Work> where they are kept safe, as water blocks the radiation it emits
23:12:04  <Eddi|zuHause> and now comes the part where you explain how that won't happen in a liquid thorium reactor
23:12:15  <Xaroth|Work> where -what- won't happen?
23:12:22  <Xaroth|Work> there's no such thing as 'spent fuel rods'  in lftrs
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23:12:35  <Xaroth|Work> it's a completely different system
23:12:44  <Eddi|zuHause> this has no sense.
23:12:52  <Xaroth|Work> they are different materials
23:12:53  <Eddi|zuHause> you're not saying anything
23:12:54  <Xaroth|Work> that behave differently
23:13:03  <Nat_aS> Eddi|zuHause: you are not listening
23:13:07  <Nat_aS> the information is all there
23:13:11  <Nat_aS> you are chosing to be ignorant
23:13:15  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like you're the PR guy who had 3 pages of lines he should repeat over and over, until people believe him
23:13:24  <Nat_aS> like many do when it comes to this sort of thing
23:13:37  <Nat_aS> maybe it's your responsibility to educate yourself
23:13:43  <Xaroth|Work> it's like claiming plastic dents because cars use aluminium
23:13:46  <Eddi|zuHause> you have shown nothing that you actually understood any internal physical or chemical details
23:13:51  <Xaroth|Work> yes, both are used for this purpose
23:13:55  <Eddi|zuHause> and when i ask you for them, you can't provide any
23:13:57  <Xaroth|Work> but both work entirely differently
23:14:11  <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: seriously, are you wendy wright?
23:14:25  <Nat_aS> wendy wright?
23:14:29  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but you don't actually say HOW plastic and aluminium are different
23:14:39  <Xaroth|Work> ...
23:14:47  <Xaroth|Work> I'm not going to explain you the periodic table
23:14:54  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should
23:14:59  <Xaroth|Work> read a science book
23:15:15  <Eddi|zuHause> because i studied neither physics nor chemistry.
23:15:24  <Xaroth|Work> yet i'm pretty sure you've seen a periodic table
23:15:26  <Eddi|zuHause> so maybe i'm missing something "obvious"
23:15:40  <Xaroth|Work> one uses the Uranium elements
23:15:43  <Nat_aS> [16:10] <Eddi|zuHause> because i studied neither physics nor chemistry.
23:15:44  <Xaroth|Work> one uses the Thorium elements
23:15:54  <Nat_aS> then shut the fuck up, sorry for the swearing
23:15:55  <Xaroth|Work> two completely different elements
23:15:58  <Xaroth|Work> who have different properties
23:16:08  <Nat_aS> but thsi "My ignorance is just as valid as your knowledge" is irritating.
23:16:14  <Nat_aS> this
23:16:20  <Eddi|zuHause> but they're still radioactive, and radioactive decay produces heat
23:16:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and heat has to be dissipated
23:16:37  <Nat_aS> and heat can be mannaged in a passive mannet
23:16:40  <Nat_aS> manner.
23:17:00  <Nat_aS> there are uranium reactors that have passive cooling for waste products
23:17:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but apparently with "solid" fuel, passive cooling isn't enough
23:17:05  <Nat_aS> no, it is
23:17:16  <Xaroth|Work> it is more than enough under normal circumstances
23:17:18  <Nat_aS> Fukashima was just an old design that relied too heavily on active cooling
23:17:22  <Eddi|zuHause> and now i ask you how far liquid fuel differs
23:17:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and you only say "it differs"
23:17:29  <Nat_aS> and this was a known concern
23:17:35  <Eddi|zuHause> without any reasonable explanation
23:17:36  <Nat_aS> there was however another reactor in japan
23:17:43  <Nat_aS> closer to the epicenter of the earthquake
23:17:46  <Nat_aS> that shut down without issue
23:18:02  <Nat_aS> Fukashima was old and due to be decomissioned because it was old and vulnerable
23:18:13  <Nat_aS> it relied on active cooling, which as we all know is a bad idea
23:18:23  <Nat_aS> it is not any sort of inherent flaw
23:18:33  <Xaroth|Work> the main difference between the solid fuel reactors and liquid fuel reactors, is that solid fuel reactors operate under very high pressure
23:18:39  <Xaroth|Work> which means that if shit DOES hit the fan
23:18:58  <Xaroth|Work> the damage caused is far greater
23:19:12  <Xaroth|Work> and because of the high pressure, other means of containing have to be used
23:19:55  <Xaroth|Work> with the liquid fuel reactors, you don't have insane pressure, meaning you can use safer containments, with better "plan oh fuck" systems
23:20:15  <Xaroth|Work> yes, they'll both generate heat constantly
23:20:29  <Xaroth|Work> and no that's not really an issue for either
23:20:45  <Xaroth|Work> it's just less safe for solid fuel than it is for liquid fuel
23:21:14  <Xaroth|Work> you can't flash-drain a solid fuel reactor into an overflow to keep it from doing stuff you don't want
23:21:45  <Xaroth|Work> because the pressure will just fuck shit over
23:22:00  <Eddi|zuHause> and all that may possibly "increase safety", but nothing of that can explain a "can't ever happen"
23:22:19  <Eddi|zuHause> and that is my point
23:22:45  <Xaroth|Work> when a solid fuel reactor has to shut down
23:22:49  <Xaroth|Work> they have to decrease pressure
23:22:56  <Xaroth|Work> once it's in normal levels
23:23:09  <Xaroth|Work> the system can't function
23:23:26  <Xaroth|Work> heat dissipation will be greater or equal to the heat generated
23:24:02  <Xaroth|Work> with liquid fuel, once you stop the reaction, heat dissipation will already be greater than heat generated
23:24:17  <Xaroth|Work> so as Nat_aS said, it can't physically happen
23:24:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and now you give me a table/formula/statistics where you support this statement with facts
23:24:49  <Nat_aS> no
23:24:51  <Nat_aS> find it yourself
23:25:02  <Nat_aS> you can chose to be ignorant if you want
23:25:04  <Eddi|zuHause> no. find yourself on my ignore list
23:25:13  <Nat_aS> but you have demonstraited that you just want to be ignorant
23:26:02  <Xaroth|Work> o(ja) = ( Tj - Ta ) / Pd
23:26:06  <Eddi|zuHause> if "please prove anything you say" is "ignorance" nowadays, i'm happy to be "ignorant" for the rest of my life
23:26:41  <Xaroth|Work> how is it our task to prove known facts?
23:26:47  <Xaroth|Work> but seriously
23:26:52  <Xaroth|Work> that formula, is completely useless by itsel
23:26:54  <Xaroth|Work> itself
23:27:03  <Nat_aS> I'm just tired of this conversation
23:27:11  <Xaroth|Work> it needs a few thousand variables to be filled in
23:27:54  <Nat_aS> Xaroth is right, it sounds like talking about biology to a creationist.
23:28:04  <Nat_aS> you are arguing from ignorance
23:28:30  <Xaroth|Work> physics isn't 2=1+1 .. well, in the basics it is
23:28:35  <Xaroth|Work> but if you want examples
23:28:36  <Nat_aS> if you don't know about nuclear power, you shouldn't make arguments about it's relitive safety.
23:28:42  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i'm arguing from a point where i'm not an expert in this field, and i talk to someone who acts like he knows everything
23:28:43  <Xaroth|Work> you'd have to come up with a test case
23:29:17  <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: and it's extremely difficult to explain such facts to people who just go 'prove it'
23:29:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: nobody you will ever talk to knows as much about <stuff> that you do. if you don't talk to these people, YOU are the ignorant
23:29:55  <Xaroth|Work> I mean, I'm not going to 'prove' thermal dissipation
23:30:22  <Nat_aS> burden of proof, argument from ignorance, and I'm sure there are a few more falacies I've missed
23:30:52  <Nat_aS> also threatening to /ignore somebody and then continuing to argue with them, allways classy.
23:31:18  <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: at the same time you expect proof as if you had knowledge of the subject, while you do not have sufficient knowledge
23:31:50  <Xaroth|Work> even I don't know -all- the formulas and calculations
23:31:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: i have a basic knowledge of physics and chemistry. but you're not even referencing sources or citing statistics
23:31:56  <Xaroth|Work> I know it's been peer reviewed
23:32:06  <Eddi|zuHause> you're just saying "it is like it is."
23:32:12  <Xaroth|Work> statistics are irrelevant
23:32:17  <Xaroth|Work> they are dependant of variables
23:32:36  <Xaroth|Work> you can't throw a wikipedia table to this
23:32:44  <Xaroth|Work> you'd have to make a valid test case
23:32:53  <Xaroth|Work> with all variables accounted for
23:32:58  <Xaroth|Work> things like amount of liquid
23:32:59  <Xaroth|Work> size of tank
23:33:04  <Xaroth|Work> thickness of tank walls
23:33:09  <Xaroth|Work> materials of which the tank walls comprise
23:33:15  <Xaroth|Work> materials surrounding the tank
23:33:21  <Xaroth|Work> materials IN the tank, other than the liquid
23:33:51  <Xaroth|Work> it's simply not doable to go in such extreme depths to explain all that
23:34:02  <Xaroth|Work> just because you want it explained in laymans terms
23:34:08  <Xaroth|Work> the data has been peer reviewed
23:34:19  <Xaroth|Work> the people who know that stuff better than any other have looked at it
23:34:21  <Xaroth|Work> and they all agree
23:34:31  <Xaroth|Work> (or at least, none of them bothered to disagree)
23:35:27  <Xaroth|Work> and now i go snooze
23:35:30  <Xaroth|Work> it's too late for me
23:36:07  <Eddi|zuHause> if you say "it has been peer reviewed", then there must be a publication. but then you don't cite it.
23:36:23  <Eddi|zuHause> your entire mode of discussion feels wrong
23:36:43  <Eddi|zuHause> and that's why i'm still not believing anything you say
23:40:16  <Nat_aS> how do you think we feel?
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