Log for #openttd on 16th July 2013:
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02:19:23  <SamanthaD> I'm trying to compile OpenTTD with the Cargodist and Slim Timetable Separation. The documentation on the wiki says I need to svn update to the appropriate revision then patch -p0 the patch
02:19:33  <SamanthaD> but... the two patches are built against different revisions!
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02:38:54  <SamanthaD> Hmm... dinner. I'll be back later.
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03:15:44  <SamanthaD> back
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03:31:36  <SamanthaD> Can anyone help me patch my game?
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03:32:12  <SamanthaD> I'm trying to apply both cargodist and slim timetable separation
03:32:56  <SamanthaD> the wiki only details how to install one patch
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03:38:53  <pjpe> how different are the two revision numbers
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03:41:22  <SamanthaD> let's see... the first patch is for r24032 and the second patch is for r25565
03:41:42  <SamanthaD> but the first patch seems to be pretty minor. It just messes with the timetables code
03:41:54  <pjpe> well shit i don't know
03:42:55  <SamanthaD> should I just set the revision to r25565 and then patch?
03:43:01  <SamanthaD> the other thing I can think of would probably mess things up
03:43:24  <SamanthaD> when you subversion to a new revision you wipe out any patches you made, right?
03:43:36  <pjpe> hey try it, why not
03:43:42  <SamanthaD> will do!
03:43:44  <pjpe> worse comes to worse you're where you started
03:43:45  <pjpe> or dead
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03:44:29  <SamanthaD> *computer explodes*
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05:03:27  <SamanthaD> I'm such a dork...
05:03:57  <SamanthaD> After struggling to get those two patches to behave together (unsuccessfully)
05:04:07  <SamanthaD> I learn that both patches have been merged into the development branch >.<
05:04:13  * SamanthaD runs off to play with the beta
05:04:45  <Supercheese> Lemme guess, cargodist and... vehicle separation?
05:05:37  <pjpe> slim timetables
05:05:40  <pjpe> whatever that is
05:05:43  <pjpe> separation or something
05:05:58  <Supercheese> I was close, eh
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05:48:37  <SamanthaD> Supercheese: bingo ;)
05:48:51  <Supercheese> Hehe :D
05:49:02  <SamanthaD> the development branch is ace :3
05:49:08  <SamanthaD> I'm enjoying the sin out of it
05:49:26  <Supercheese> If you compile your own version, you can tweak it even further
05:49:31  <SamanthaD> those two patches really breathe new life into the game IMHO
05:50:01  <Supercheese> For instance, I've always hated the date restrictions placed on NewObjects and Station tiles, so I modified the source so that you can always build them regardless of date
05:50:40  <SamanthaD> Oh? Those *ARE* annoying?
05:50:41  <Supercheese> easier than trying to modify the newgrfs themselves, especially when many are not open source
05:51:17  <SamanthaD> which station grfs aren't open source?!
05:51:22  <Supercheese> NewStations
05:51:25  <Supercheese> CanStations
05:51:29  <SamanthaD> ah
05:51:31  <Supercheese> etc.
05:51:37  <SamanthaD> in other words nothing I play with :p
05:52:10  <Supercheese> also, NML can't do stations, and I don't work with NOF
05:52:14  <Supercheese> NFO*
05:52:24  <V453000> ^
05:52:26  <SamanthaD> ah
05:52:53  <Supercheese> .cpp is so much easier to read than .nfo
05:53:01  <V453000> honestly station-looking newobjects are weird as you cant have the cargo detection in them :(
05:53:06  * SamanthaD doesn't understand why someone wouldn't open source a newgrf
05:53:17  <Nat_aS> because evil exists in this world
05:53:23  <SamanthaD> ;)
05:53:34  <V453000> SamanthaD: you cannot understand it, those people have very "alternative" brains
05:53:44  <V453000> I could say they are fucking douchebags but you know ...
05:53:55  <Supercheese> Zounds, don't call mb that
05:53:57  <SamanthaD> it's too bad, because some of those GRFs are really high quality
05:54:58  <V453000> I was mainly aiming at simuscape dbags, mb is a tiny bit better
05:55:13  <SamanthaD> what is simuscape?
05:55:22  <Supercheese> You're probably better off not knowing
05:56:03  <Supercheese> Ach, TortoiseSVN is failing on me
05:56:08  <pjpe> is that that other train game
05:56:13  <pjpe> that's like openttd but weirder and harder to set up
05:56:17  <pjpe> and looks worse
05:56:18  <Supercheese> No, it's a website
05:56:25  <pjpe> what's the one i'm thinking of
05:56:32  <Supercheese> Simutrans?
05:56:38  <pjpe> sounds about right
05:56:49  <Supercheese> Yeah, pretty similar
05:56:56  <SamanthaD> Supercheese: Oooh! Forbidden fruit!
05:57:15  <SamanthaD> Supercheese: According to my search engine it's a... MATLAB plugin. No... must be different project.
05:57:36  <SamanthaD> I could never get Simutrans to freaking run right
05:57:41  <SamanthaD> which is too bad...
05:57:52  <Supercheese> Same here
05:57:58  <SamanthaD> I always wanted to play Simutrans due to cargo distribution but could never get it to work right
05:58:02  <SamanthaD> But now!
05:58:06  <pjpe> it has some neat features that openttd doesn't but just getting to the point of playing with them is such a hill to climb
05:58:09  <Supercheese> Simutrans has more of a CargoDest
05:58:14  <SamanthaD> *dances happily with her brand new development branch binary*
05:58:15  <Supercheese> than a CargoDist
05:58:27  <SamanthaD> yup
05:58:29  <SamanthaD> speaking of...
05:58:30  <Supercheese> but, eh, details :P
05:58:33  <SamanthaD> I have an idea for a patch!
05:59:02  <SamanthaD> I figure the main reason why cargodest is better than cargodist is that it forces you to not ignore the little towns, right?
05:59:19  <Supercheese> Well, it gives every cargo a desired destination
05:59:29  <Supercheese> Irrespective of any current infrastructure
05:59:42  <SamanthaD> well... how about a patch that scales passenger production as a fraction of system coverage?
05:59:44  <Supercheese> Whereas cargodist just routes stuff around based on your current infrastructure
06:00:02  <Supercheese> (at least that is how I understand it)
06:00:12  <SamanthaD> yes, that's how I understand it, too
06:01:32  <SamanthaD> Does that sound like a good idea, though?
06:01:45  <Supercheese> I'm not sure I understand
06:02:01  <Supercheese> what do you mean by system coverage?
06:02:23  <SamanthaD> Oh, I mean the percentage of city tiles covered by your stations
06:02:33  <SamanthaD> (and accessible to passengers, of course)
06:03:12  <SamanthaD> in other words, the percentage of city tiles served by stations that have at least one passenger train serving them
06:04:04  <V453000> so what you basically want is building totally random rails and make the game adapt
06:05:14  <SamanthaD> well... what I'm thinking is a way to simulate the fact that if you're only covering a quarter of the map there's going to be a percentage of passengers who won't even bother riding your network 'cuz it doesn't go where they want it to go
06:07:17  <SamanthaD> on the other hand... passengers will probably ride your system to get as close to their destination as possible
06:07:21  <SamanthaD> meh, I guess I like cargodist
06:08:50  <Supercheese> Cargodist always causes huge buildups of passengers whenever I try using it
06:08:59  <Supercheese> and trains that are never full, despite 5,000 passengers waiting
06:09:47  <V453000> SamanthaD: that would be extremely hard to expand your network
06:09:59  <V453000> as with every additional small station you would get a ton of increased production
06:10:15  <SamanthaD> hmm... I suppose
06:10:57  <V453000> I still think that neither of cargo dist or dest, or yacd are anywhere close to the playability of original game
06:11:08  <Supercheese> Yeah, me too
06:11:12  <SamanthaD> Yes, but you can turn them off
06:11:37  <Supercheese> yacd was interesting, but is now a very old patch
06:11:39  <SamanthaD> eer... you can turn Cargodist off now that it's merged to trunk
06:12:42  <V453000> yacd was motivating itself to play it as it suggested where to move cargo, unlike cargodist which doesnt force you to use it (in fact it is smarter to avoid using it even when it is on)
06:13:04  <V453000> the problem was, building point-to-point hopping station web was the ultimate solution to it
06:13:13  <V453000> but that is the same thing with cargodist, only a bit differently
06:13:35  <V453000> therefore once you find out how it works and discover how to play it effectively, it loses all interestingness
06:13:56  <V453000> as it directly enforces using the most primitive network layout
06:14:16  <SamanthaD> I like the fact that I can build networks and have my passenger trains have more than one stop
06:14:30  <SamanthaD> as in, my passenger trains can do more than just go from point A to point B
06:15:00  <V453000> how are multiple stops an advantage :D
06:15:55  <SamanthaD> It's how trains are in the real world and that's neat
06:16:37  <V453000> doesnt make sense for the game though
06:16:46  <SamanthaD> I guess...
06:16:56  <SamanthaD> *shrugs* I like it
06:18:06  <V453000> nuff sed
06:18:11  <SamanthaD> 'xactly
06:18:38  <SamanthaD> maybe it's just that I haven't figured out how to make an optimal cargodist map yet
06:18:48  <Supercheese> My current trend in games is to build a giant bi-directional circle around the map edge connecting as many cities as possible, then branch lines as necessary, to build the passenger network
06:19:07  <SamanthaD> Supercheese: With cargodist or without?
06:19:08  <Supercheese> then often just loads of P2P connections for industries
06:19:10  <Supercheese> without
06:19:30  <Supercheese> I've only tried cargodist a few times, and didn't much like it
06:19:47  <SamanthaD> Supercheese: Do you transfer passengers or do you run the trains from the branch lines directly onto the main line?
06:20:02  <montalvo> how difficult is it to compile openttd from source on a mac?
06:20:09  <Supercheese> I usually never transfer, just grab passengers and dump them at the next station
06:21:01  <SamanthaD> montalvo:
06:21:05  <montalvo> thank you!
06:21:17  <montalvo> i think i've come across a bug that can only be solved by compiling your own version
06:21:18  <Supercheese> some express lines skip stations
06:21:18  <montalvo> but i'm not sure
06:21:53  <SamanthaD> montalvo: gonna go use the latest development version?
06:22:06  <montalvo> i think 1.3.1 works fine too
06:22:13  <montalvo> the bug in question -
06:22:50  <SamanthaD> Supercheese: The thing that I don't like about normal cargo is that except for feeder lines (like buses that pick up pasengers and transfer them at the station) it NEVER makes economic sense to run local lines
06:23:15  <Supercheese> It doesn't?
06:23:27  <SamanthaD> Supercheese: Profit is a function of distance
06:23:43  <Supercheese> Ah, I forgot to mention that I also run subways in large cities
06:23:52  <Supercheese> those would definitely be local lines
06:23:55  <Supercheese> and they work great
06:23:57  <SamanthaD> subways?
06:24:10  <peter1139> railways with lots of tunnels
06:24:11  <Supercheese>
06:24:14  <Supercheese> Nope
06:24:16  <Supercheese> Fake Subways
06:24:20  <peter1139> oh, trams
06:24:28  <Supercheese> Well, just regular RVs really
06:24:32  <Supercheese> hacked to appear as subways :P
06:24:33  <peter1139> oh dear
06:24:44  <peter1139> invisible RVs
06:24:51  <SamanthaD> but wouldn't it make more sense, then, to use a transfer order for those passengers onto an express train that goes all the way to the other side of the map?
06:24:51  <Supercheese> Translucent, anyway
06:25:03  <peter1139> yeah, because subways appear translucent, right :p
06:25:15  <SamanthaD> yup
06:25:17  <Supercheese> Well, how else am I supposed to show where they are, mm?
06:25:23  <Supercheese> hmm*
06:25:30  <V453000> honestly using normal RVs is TONS nicer :)
06:26:22  <Supercheese> Sure, they don't go very far, but I've given them enormous capacity
06:26:39  <Supercheese> after all, the subways I've ridden on have carried many hundreds of folks
06:26:41  <SamanthaD> I <3 Trams
06:28:44  <Supercheese> Sheesh, how do I get GnuWin diff to write its output to a file?
06:29:40  <Supercheese> :S
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06:30:09  <Supercheese> wtf, needs the > operator
06:30:16  <SamanthaD> if those subways are normal road vehicles... don't they occasionally wander all over the place?
06:30:18  <Supercheese> that's pretty weird
06:30:25  <Supercheese> Yeah, they can wander if they want
06:30:36  <Supercheese> there's an option to make them trams, so they stick to tracks
06:30:49  <Supercheese> but having above-ground tracks for "underground" vehicles is weird
06:30:56  <planetmaker> moin
06:31:02  <V453000> moopurr
06:31:06  <Supercheese> baaaaa
06:31:12  <V453000> how them landscapes pm :)
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06:31:19  <SamanthaD> Supercheese: I suppose they could have replacement tram tracks that look just like normal roads
06:31:35  <planetmaker> chilling desert winds have been howling over them during the night
06:31:36  <Supercheese> Sure... but then what if you want to use "real" trams?
06:31:50  <SamanthaD> write a patch that lets you have more than just two types of roads?
06:32:00  <Supercheese> Wouldn't THAT be nice
06:32:02  <Supercheese> :P
06:32:07  <SamanthaD> n_n
06:32:13  * Supercheese has been waiting for roadtypes for a while
06:32:34  <Supercheese> I have a sinking feeling no dev wants to work on it because they know the first roadtype grf will be a subway hack
06:32:40  <Supercheese> >__>
06:32:58  <Supercheese> (unless they pre-empt with their own grf, of course)
06:33:15  <V453000> :D
06:33:19  <planetmaker>
06:33:56  <planetmaker> there are several technical difficulties or at least tricky things to decide
06:34:21  <V453000> to be or not to be
06:34:23  <planetmaker> for instance town growth is directly related to presence of roads. which roads?
06:34:33  <Supercheese> Oh, or if NML support for roadtypes isn't added in a timely fashion
06:34:48  <planetmaker> that's easier than stations
06:35:43  <planetmaker> as it likely will follow all sane specs, it's a matter of rather simple copy & paste & adopt
06:36:09  <planetmaker> stations... work differently in NFO than everything else, as such need very special care when trying to support those in NML
06:37:48  <Supercheese> Good to know
06:38:15  <Supercheese> Well, figured out diff and patch command line stuff
06:39:05  <Supercheese> I should have done that ages ago -_-
06:41:24  <Supercheese> I hope that patch can handle applying 20+ patches to the same file
06:42:03  <pjpe> would it be harder now to make a cargo destination patch now that cargodist is in the trunk or would their codebase not interfere too much?
06:42:48  <SamanthaD> pjpe: what would you like it to do that cargodist doesn't?
06:42:58  <Supercheese> YACD  :P
06:43:03  <pjpe> cargo destinations
06:43:05  <pjpe> just wondering
06:44:45  <SamanthaD> I'm not sure... but I imagine that cargodist's pathfinder could be hacked...
06:44:52  <SamanthaD> OH! I have an idea on how to do it
06:45:24  <SamanthaD> various units of cargo could have an idea of what tile they want to go to. From that they select either a station or nothing (in which case they disappear)
06:45:34  <SamanthaD> and then, Cargodist's pathfinder could accurately route them
06:46:06  <Supercheese> While that may seem simple, Murphy's Law applied to code dictates that it is probably not :P
06:46:15  <Supercheese> although I do not know for sure
06:46:17  <planetmaker> pjpe, yes and no. They share some concepts
06:46:49  <planetmaker> from what I recall it would be easier to implement cargodist on top of yacd than vice versa, though.
06:46:58  <pjpe> well that's nice
06:47:08  <SamanthaD> one thing that I think Cargodist would make more difficult is if the target is covered by more than one station it might be difficult for cargo to switch routes mid-journey to the other applicable station
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06:50:29  <SamanthaD> but that's kinda what my proposal was all about. Kind of a quick-and-dirty way to estimate what percentage of traffic would have routed to an unreachable destination.
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06:51:34  <Supercheese> Huh, I wonder what the timestamp stuff in .diffs is used for
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06:52:10  <Supercheese> It doesn't seem necessary for applying the patch
06:52:42  <planetmaker> it gives you information on when it was created :-)
06:52:48  <SamanthaD> it's probably useful for when the patch doesn't apply properly
06:52:49  <planetmaker> allows to time-order different patches
06:53:01  <planetmaker> doesn't help with applying patches though
06:53:25  <Supercheese> Yeah, for what I'm doing timestamps are irrelevant
06:53:44  <planetmaker> for what I do, too
06:53:49  <Supercheese> but I guess if you have something like VC++ Intellisense it may be of some use
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06:54:12  <planetmaker> it only tells me maybe when I last touched a patch :-)
06:54:25  <planetmaker> more reliably than a file date could
06:58:15  <Supercheese> Hmm, I'm applying patches that add lines, changing the numbers, and then wanting to apply many more such patches to the same file. I hope 20 lines of context for unified .diffs will allow them to apply, despite altered line numbers
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07:06:29  <Supercheese> patch and diff are very cool
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07:10:15  <planetmaker> I made the experience that a tool like k3diff helps a lot when merging conflicting patches
07:10:54  <planetmaker> and that mercurial (and possibly git) work quite a bit better when trying to apply several patches than svn can
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07:14:46  <Supercheese> TortoiseSVN has crapped out on me
07:14:53  <Supercheese> I blame the new repo version stuff
07:17:54  <planetmaker> repo version stuff?
07:18:15  <Supercheese> something like SVN repositories being upgraded from version X to version X+!
07:18:17  <Supercheese> X+1*
07:18:57  <planetmaker> ah
07:21:39  <Xaroth|Work> mornin
07:21:46  <planetmaker> moin Xaroth
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07:29:08  <Supercheese> 'night
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09:53:58  <SamanthaD> I'm not sure I understand how I'm actually supposed to USE this new autoscheduling feature in the dev branch
09:59:54  <Eddi|zuHause> you set up one vehicle's schedule so it has enough buffer time to catch up delays, and then you ctrl+click on "start date" to set up the other vehicles that share the same timetable. also you should have enough overtaking capacity at the waiting stations
10:04:47  <SamanthaD> OH! I see. Thanks!
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10:19:05  <dihedral> greetings
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10:39:56  <Eddi|zuHause> is it just me or is the forum awfully slow today?
10:43:13  <peter1139> it's you
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11:05:38  <Eddi|zuHause> now it's fine again
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11:31:00  * peter1139 mumbles about random play picking the same songs over and over...
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12:30:19  <Belugas> Roxaaaane!
12:30:24  <Belugas> hello
12:31:12  <NCG3982> Mmm. Toto.
12:32:50  <Belugas> Hold the line!
12:34:07  <NCG3982> So ..flat.
12:36:07  <Belugas> so... my era ;)
12:36:15  <NCG3982> Hehe.
12:36:19  <NCG3982> I grew up with Toto.
12:36:37  <NCG3982> I have always loved it, but lately, i've been finding it so ..flat.
12:37:33  <Belugas> i these days, the productions were not to the qality of the today's stuff
12:38:02  <Belugas> but what they lacked in quality, they won over inspiration
12:38:30  <Belugas> althouhg they were exceptions... Dark Side Of The Moon, as an example ;)
12:39:31  <planetmaker> Belugas, you need to make sure to bring music :-9
12:40:36  <Belugas> i have about 600 on my phone, some by peter and I, some by me and a lot by others.  But I doubt they will lift up a good party
12:40:48  <Belugas> I have a tendancy to love dark mood music...
12:41:30  <V453000> planetmaker: if people get naughty you can scare them with the threat of me taking over the music ... and they dont want that
12:42:05  <Belugas> ho?  why is that?
12:42:20  <V453000> hevy n stuff
12:42:28  <Belugas> Deathmole?
12:42:55  <V453000> mostly melodeath but depends
12:43:14  <planetmaker> Belugas, I fear that V453000 might be right :D
12:43:14  * Belugas smells fun at the party :D
12:43:45  <V453000> :D
12:43:58  <planetmaker> deathmole... I only know that from QC
12:44:11  <Belugas> Quebec??
12:44:29  * Belugas feels he will feed his phone some more stuff...
12:45:25  <V453000> how old are deathmole
12:45:32  <peter1139> heh
12:46:13  <Belugas> deathmole is actually only one guy, Jeff Jacques
12:46:19  <Belugas> hem... jeph
12:46:19  <V453000> oh :)
12:46:32  <Belugas> virtual band
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12:46:43  <Belugas> but the stuff he records is.. amazing
12:46:49  <Belugas> and freaking heavy
12:47:04  <V453000> is pretty good but I miss moar energy in there
12:47:20  <V453000> Soilwork is one of the bands I like most
12:47:21  <peter1139> planetmaker, odd that
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12:47:40  <Belugas> he drops his guitar to C, instead of E.  that makes it... intense
12:48:09  <Belugas> ho.. Questionnable COntents...
12:48:21  <V453000> :D
12:48:30  <V453000> this isnt questionable :(
12:48:35  <V453000> whats that anyway, like a tv thing?
12:49:00  <peter1139> wut
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12:49:40  <planetmaker> oh, trallala :-) See
12:50:16  <planetmaker> you don't know questionable content?
12:51:02  <V453000> no, everything I do is not questionable :P
12:51:35  <planetmaker> questionable :-P
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12:53:09  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i should probably not have clicked on "samurai roxudoku"
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13:06:12  <peter1139> hmm
13:06:21  <peter1139> why is evolution sending a client tls certificate to my mail server
13:06:33  <peter1139> and why is my mail server accept that certificate as valid authentication?
13:06:38  <V453000> because evolution fucked up about 40 000 years ago
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13:33:00  <TinyMusic> This is OpenTTD?
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13:34:08  <V453000> :D
13:34:08  <V453000> ok
13:34:12  <murr4y> This is Sparta
13:34:17  <V453000> exactly
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13:43:21  <V453000> what is the unit of FIRS coffee?
13:43:23  <V453000> bags?
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14:13:30  <NCG3982> Mmm.
14:13:35  <NCG3982> Coffee.
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14:46:06  <fonsinchen> In reply to pjpe and SamanthaD this morning: It is certainly possible to make Cargodist behave like YACD or Cargodest by modifying the demand function (in src/linkgraph/demands.cpp).
14:46:46  <fonsinchen> Cargodist does not route packets individually but instead defines flows at the stations. The demand function is the place to influence that.
14:47:17  <fonsinchen> However, the hard part is finding the desirable destinations in the first place without searching for too long.
14:47:44  <fonsinchen> Neither me nor michi_cc have found an efficient solution to that.
14:56:33  <Xaroth|Work> have you tried turning it off and on again?
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15:03:01  <fonsinchen> Yes, I've turned the purple fridge off an on multiple times already, but I still haven't found a solution.
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15:13:05  <Xaroth|Work> have you tried plugging it in? another common mistake
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16:02:44  <LordAro> heyo all
16:03:39  <planetmaker> o/
16:04:04  <LordAro> hi pm
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16:15:32  <Eddi|zuHause> wait, you have a purple fridge _AND_ a purple horse?
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17:45:32  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25615 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2013-07-16 17:45:23 UTC)
17:45:33  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:34  <DorpsGek> korean - 26 changes by telk5093
17:45:35  <DorpsGek> polish - 4 changes by p0358
17:45:36  <DorpsGek> turkish - 30 changes by wakeup
17:47:12  <Sacro> \o/
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18:31:13  <notbigfoot> Hello. I see that the auto-renew feature has been removed from OpenTTD. Is there a patch to reintroduce it?
18:31:59  <planetmaker> it hasn't been removed.
18:32:12  <notbigfoot> Well, I can't find it anymore at least
18:32:18  <planetmaker> it hasn't changed either
18:32:30  <notbigfoot> Well, it's not in advanced settings anymore
18:32:45  <pjpe> have any of the big devs taken a look at that russian underground layer patch?
18:32:59  <pjpe> i imagine the current code for that would look like a small disaster
18:32:59  <notbigfoot> So if it is still there, can you tell me where to find it?
18:33:01  <planetmaker> change settings type from 'basic settings' to 'advanced' or 'expert'
18:33:16  <notbigfoot> Urgh
18:33:16  <notbigfoot> OK
18:33:17  <notbigfoot> That did it
18:33:21  <notbigfoot> I even tried searching for it
18:33:23  <planetmaker> :-)
18:33:30  <notbigfoot> Why hide such a basic feature, though? :P
18:33:32  <notbigfoot> (Thanks)
18:33:51  <planetmaker> it's difficult to decide as what is 'basic', 'advanced' and 'expert'
18:33:51  <Xaroth|Work> it's not -that- basic
18:33:59  <planetmaker> There's as many opinions as people :-)
18:34:06  <notbigfoot> I'm sure :)
18:34:17  <notbigfoot> I'll refrain from introducing any more of my opinions on the matter then :P
18:34:22  <notbigfoot> I'm sure you've had enough flame wars over it already
18:34:43  <planetmaker> not really. But flame wars aren't needed in any case :-)
18:34:48  <notbigfoot> :)
18:35:02  <notbigfoot> Anyway, thanks for the help... Back to no longer manually renewing my trains
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18:35:21  <planetmaker> of course it's feasible to make a survey as of which settings are most often changed, most often used...
18:35:23  <Nat_aS> I allways turn on the most advanced features
18:35:33  * Nat_aS likes having enough rope to hang himself with
18:35:40  <planetmaker> damn, Xaroth and that guy have the same colour
18:35:59  <Xaroth|Work> wait WHAT?!?
18:36:13  <Rubidium> pff... everyone has the same colour, except ME!
18:36:19  <planetmaker> :-)
18:36:20  <Xaroth|Work> aye
18:36:40  <Rubidium> although... technically it could even be the same colour, just a different hue
18:37:10  <Rubidium> s/hue/saturation/
18:37:20  <planetmaker> pjpe, the thread alone shows how many problems the patch still has
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18:38:13  <pjpe> the 2 page thread that's just "so this crashed after 5 minutes, what's up with that?" for 90% of the posts?
18:38:34  <planetmaker> pjpe, is similarily interesting and 5 years older :-)
18:39:36  <planetmaker> is also quite interesting
18:40:03  <pjpe> if only i was a genie
18:40:15  <planetmaker> ^ that I wish for myself, too :-)
18:40:59  <planetmaker> the latter is actually even more interesting. As it opens doors to many more interesting things and extensibility
18:41:08  <Rubidium> oh joy... the diff starts with a binary diff of opntitle.dat...
18:42:25  <Rubidium> and adding changelog.txt, readme.txt and removing some ignore files
18:42:56  <Rubidium> then ofcourse the obligatory MSVC files that should never reach a diff
18:43:41  <Rubidium> and I think they changed the command handler to 64 bits to be able to have those insanely huge maps
18:44:23  <planetmaker> hm...
18:44:42  <planetmaker> <--- can I do that (and with rail sprites as well)?
18:44:53  <planetmaker> it would simplify my grid line patch TREMENDOUSLY
18:45:42  <planetmaker> ^ Rubidium ?
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18:46:47  <planetmaker> well... not tremendously. But move issues. To a more friendly place likely :-)
18:46:58  <Rubidium> oh lol...
18:47:33  <Rubidium> xUSSR set price multipliers are made 'proper' settings... instead of a setting of the NewGRF
18:47:53  <planetmaker> what does that mean?
18:48:47  <Rubidium> +STR_CONFIG_SETTING_PRICE_MULT_RAIL_08                           :Multiplier for building rails No08: {STRING2}
18:48:50  <Rubidium> +STR_CONFIG_SETTING_PRICE_MULT_RAIL_08_HELPTEXT                  :Multiplier for building rails No08{}{ORANGE}xUSSR Set >r851: {WHITE}Trunk Electrified AC Railroad (140km/h) {}{ORANGE}NuTrack 1.1.2: {WHITE}High Speed Rail
18:49:09  <planetmaker> o_O in OpenTTD itself :-D
18:50:16  <Rubidium> <- EOI
18:52:06  <Rubidium> planetmaker: it'd break oldrail, right?
18:53:54  <planetmaker> Rubidium, yes, if simply moved as new action5 items, it will
18:55:08  <planetmaker> maybe it would need some provision to re-direct actionA write access to those new action5 sprites
18:55:20  <planetmaker> not sure whether that is sanely possible
18:55:51  <planetmaker> hm... actually, Rubidium, the openttd.grf could simply overwrite the road/rail sprites with transparent versions
18:56:00  <planetmaker> via actionA itself
18:56:07  <planetmaker> then nothing breaks
18:57:16  <andythenorth> o/
18:57:21  <andythenorth> o/
18:57:23  <planetmaker> unless a NewGRF uses those road or rail sprites as its own ground sprites.
18:57:36  <planetmaker> which... only stations would do. But there the rail is mostly covered anyway
18:57:38  <planetmaker> hi andythenorth
18:58:06  <planetmaker> pjpe, don't take it bad. But from what rubi just quoted it more looks like a hack than a patch
18:58:19  <pjpe> what the russian thing?
18:58:31  <planetmaker> the 3D underground thing
18:58:38  <pjpe> yeah that's what i expected
18:59:10  <pjpe> i want there to be so bad underground building but i know that that russian thing isn't going to come to fruition
18:59:27  <planetmaker> still, it's a difficult thing to get going at all, thus what's seen there is already loads of work
18:59:58  <planetmaker> My personal bets would be on something along the lines of what I linked with michi's repo, the lomo style maps
19:00:10  <planetmaker> once they're there, adding additional layers can be done
19:00:13  <andythenorth> hmm
19:00:21  * andythenorth considers making FIRS compatible with ECS
19:00:23  <planetmaker> or so I understand the intention :-)
19:00:37  <planetmaker> how, andythenorth ?
19:00:46  <andythenorth> all that's needed is a cargo-translation-table-translation-table
19:00:51  <planetmaker> FIRS vector?
19:00:56  <andythenorth> and to increase the industry and cargo limits
19:00:59  <pjpe> wait why is locomotion shortened to lomo
19:01:10  <planetmaker> lazyness in spelling so many chars?
19:01:15  <andythenorth>
19:01:18  <pjpe> but not loco
19:01:20  <pjpe> lomo
19:01:25  <pjpe> HOW PECULIAR
19:01:28  <andythenorth> also wtf are people's FIRS map gen runs so fricking slow?
19:01:30  <planetmaker> LOcoMOtion
19:02:41  <Rubidium> pjpe: always better than l10n and i18n
19:02:46  <planetmaker> pjpe, generally, in OpenTTD development it's good to have big goals. And go small steps :-)
19:02:59  <planetmaker> That way often gets done more than big chunky things
19:03:23  <Xaroth|Work> whether it's 'good' or not can be debated
19:03:24  <planetmaker> Things like CargoDist are very tricky to integrate and get right
19:03:29  <planetmaker> or Yacd
19:03:44  <planetmaker> those processes took months to years
19:04:07  <planetmaker> thus it also needs stamina :-) And talking
19:04:11  <Xaroth|Work> months to years? wasn't there a cargodist like.. 4 years ago already?
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19:04:33  <planetmaker> maybe :-) But actual integration didn't start 4 years ago
19:04:47  <Rubidium> art thee sure?
19:04:50  <planetmaker> rather like 9 or 12 month ago it was decided to start merging it
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19:04:51  <Xaroth|Work> that was because it took 4 years to get approval for integration
19:05:04  <andythenorth> so I generated a (just one, it's not science) 2048x2048 map, high towns, high industry, 70% water, mountainous, high variety distribution, very rough
19:05:07  <andythenorth> 1m 41s
19:05:13  <andythenorth> 1m 30s of that was town placement
19:05:17  <planetmaker> andythenorth, you got a fast computer :-)
19:05:19  <andythenorth> about 7s was FIRS
19:05:28  <andythenorth> so wtf am I getting these reports about slow FIRS?
19:05:42  <planetmaker> but I don't understand 'slow FIRS' either tbh
19:05:43  <Xaroth|Work> andythenorth: and without FIRS?
19:05:53  <andythenorth> dunno
19:05:58  <andythenorth> didn't test - not science :)
19:06:07  <Xaroth|Work> benchmarking is science :)
19:06:07  <andythenorth> the game tells you what it's doing during map gen though
19:06:23  <andythenorth> I don't have a fast computer, I have a mac
19:06:46  <planetmaker> Xaroth, and actually the predecessors, cargodest and yacd were not completely in vain either on the way to cargodist
19:07:16  <planetmaker> they proved each some discussion basis and insights as well :-)
19:08:29  <Rubidium> @commit 17720
19:08:29  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Commit by rubidium :: r17720 /trunk/src (9 files in 2 dirs) (2009-10-06 17:23:15 UTC)
19:08:30  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: -Codechange: guard the CargoPacket variables that are cached in CargoLists so they cannot be written from outside the CargoList class (based on patch by fonsinchen)
19:08:41  <planetmaker> :-)
19:08:42  <Rubidium> merge from cargodist ;)
19:08:50  <planetmaker> I know
19:09:01  <Xaroth|Work> so, almost 4 years of getting it in :P
19:09:03  <planetmaker> we can prove 4 years, too
19:09:18  <andythenorth> ok, different random seed, no FIRS: 1m 42s
19:09:21  <planetmaker> But about one year ago we decided to actually get the feature into trunk
19:09:27  <andythenorth> not science :P
19:09:58  <planetmaker> as it was "suck it now or I leave it" Kinda rightfully
19:10:36  <pjpe> whatever happened with this loco style newmap by michi branch
19:10:40  <pjpe> did he just get bored with it?
19:10:45  <planetmaker> simply nothing happened :-)
19:11:08  <planetmaker> dunno anymore about performance results
19:11:18  <planetmaker> that's the interesting point really
19:11:53  <planetmaker> codechange with performance drop on the most-used data structure of the game would be bad
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19:14:43  <michi_cc> pjpe: Some strange thing abbreviated with RL happened to it (also called the not-a-student-anymore-syndrome).
19:14:51  <pjpe> eyyyyyyyy this guy
19:15:10  <Xaroth|Work> o/ michi_cc
19:15:19  <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> planetmaker: it'd break oldrail, right? <-- afair something was done to the shore sprites, so if actionA replacement is used, the additional sprites aren't used anymore
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19:16:31  <planetmaker> too bad really, michi_cc :-)
19:17:10  <Eddi|zuHause> we should forbid this RL, it's too "realistic"
19:17:41  <planetmaker> we should all go NUTS, I guess :D
19:17:43  <Xaroth|Work> the graphics can be quite crap at times though
19:17:48  <michi_cc> It's aging well  though, almost no changes related to the map array so updating is usually easy.
19:18:05  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody dares to touch the map array :p
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19:21:10  <planetmaker> michi_cc, does it hit you as hard as yexo? ;-)
19:22:12  <andythenorth> you should all work for me :)
19:22:13  <Belugas> map array... maybe add the subject at the party?  everyone is on good mood, all relaxed and all...
19:22:16  <andythenorth> loads of spare time
19:22:17  <Belugas> or.. maybe not...
19:22:23  <andythenorth> the pay is terrible
19:23:34  <andythenorth> the boss can be difficult
19:23:50  <planetmaker> :-) does it involve lego?
19:24:14  <andythenorth> not much
19:24:30  <planetmaker> ahw
19:25:01  <andythenorth> mostly python
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19:25:28  <Eddi|zuHause> SSssssssss ssss ssssss
19:25:48  <planetmaker> can I programme websites in LabView?
19:26:07  <andythenorth> if you have enough time
19:26:08  <andythenorth> probably
19:26:12  <Rubidium> planetmaker: why not?
19:26:36  <Rubidium> e.g.
19:26:36  <planetmaker> it's like using a wrench to hammer-in a nail :-)
19:27:31  <planetmaker> last time I needed LabView funnily enough the provided example programme was enough for me :-) Just took me two days to figure it out :D
19:28:46  <Rubidium> though, you probably still need to write loads of non-LV code
19:30:29  <planetmaker> unrelated... but I just bookmarked it:
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19:38:55  <frosch123> i think i saw that on the forums before
19:39:58  <frosch123> hmm, no, was only very similar
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19:40:25  <planetmaker> this is by github. There's one called very similar by the CC project
19:42:37  <Xaroth|Work> you mean
19:43:49  <planetmaker> that's the one I knew already, yes
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20:26:30  * andythenorth should write code
20:26:33  <andythenorth> but brain freeze :P
20:26:48  <andythenorth> I've run out of things to pointlessly rework on FISH
20:26:51  * Xaroth|Work throws some lava over andythenorth
20:27:21  <andythenorth> I guess I could rework the reworking
20:27:30  <andythenorth> why release a newgrf when it can be endlessly rewritten instead?
20:28:25  <planetmaker> that sounds so totally un-andy-ish
20:28:32  <Xaroth|Work> planetmaker: didn't ottdcoop do cmd logging?
20:28:37  <planetmaker> as opposed to the release early, release often?
20:28:58  <planetmaker> Xaroth, yes... but patches, lazyness, and the better alternative just at the horizon
20:29:11  <Xaroth|Work> how much data is that, per game?
20:29:17  <Xaroth|Work> (ballpark figure)
20:29:26  <planetmaker> let me look. not too much
20:30:02  <andythenorth> planetmaker: bundles server releases often my rewriting ;)
20:30:07  <andythenorth> "look, no changes!"
20:30:34  <planetmaker> Xaroth, 2M / 14 days
20:30:39  <Xaroth|Work> 2 megs?
20:30:42  <Xaroth|Work> that's not that much :o
20:30:49  <planetmaker> hm... maybe not
20:30:53  <Xaroth|Work> i would have expected 20+ at least
20:30:54  <planetmaker> that might have been w/o that patch
20:30:57  <planetmaker> yes
20:31:33  <Xaroth|Work> qoi 'alternatives' though?
20:31:37  <Xaroth|Work> admin port?
20:31:41  <Xaroth|Work> or?
20:33:30  <planetmaker> you're right. between 15 and 40M per game.
20:33:32  <planetmaker>
20:33:39  <planetmaker> yes, admin port
20:35:20  <planetmaker> that alternative let me loose motivation to spend time on something thoroughly outdated and possibly causing bugs
20:36:25  <planetmaker> and on the positive side, I don't know any time we needed the logs after we ceased logging every command ;-)
20:36:44  <planetmaker> there were a few cases when we introduced it, but ... :-) nice community in general
20:37:13  <andythenorth> code or internet
20:37:15  * andythenorth chooses internet :P
20:37:21  <planetmaker> :-)
20:38:27  <frosch123> night
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20:38:54  <andythenorth> cogwheel train
20:39:00  <andythenorth> hmm
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20:39:03  <andythenorth> HEQS...?
20:39:32  <Wolf01> hello o/
20:39:34  <planetmaker> looks like a passenger train - which would not exactly fit HEQS
20:39:59  <andythenorth> oh good point
20:40:04  <andythenorth> NewHEQS
20:40:06  <andythenorth> PAXHEQS
20:40:17  <planetmaker> looks rather it fits swissfan's set ;-)
20:40:41  <planetmaker> FEQS. Funny equipment set
20:40:46  <andythenorth> winner
20:41:17  * andythenorth tries to reverse-acronym FUQ
20:41:19  <andythenorth> childish :P
20:41:27  <andythenorth> maybe V453000 could help?
20:42:04  <Xaroth|Work> Fittable Universal.. something ?
20:42:12  <planetmaker> eQuipment
20:42:26  <planetmaker> Funny Unique eQuipment
20:42:59  <Xaroth|Work> Funny Unique eXchanges ?
21:03:29  <V453000> Fucking Ultimate Quality
21:03:53  <V453000> no? :P
21:04:14  <Xaroth|Work> Fantastic Unique Quality
21:04:16  <Xaroth|Work> combine it a bit
21:04:49  <andythenorth> V453000: FUQ Ultimate Quality?
21:05:19  <V453000> :DDD awesome for me
21:09:19  <andythenorth> you should make it :P
21:09:21  <andythenorth> what's in it?
21:09:55  <V453000> nothing
21:10:11  <V453000> perhaps replacing all strings with fuck
21:10:21  <andythenorth> or 'awesome'
21:10:40  <andythenorth> randomised trolling
21:13:52  <Rubidium> planetmaker: not even using the built-in command logging? ;)
21:14:43  <planetmaker> hm?
21:15:37  <Rubidium> -Ddesync=1
21:16:06  <planetmaker> ah, no :-)
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21:20:45  <Rubidium> though, not having to use that it a *good* thing
21:33:16  <andythenorth> hmm
21:33:58  <andythenorth> Xaroth|Work: if I have a class declaring a property directly (not via __init__), how do I access that prop later?
21:34:02  <andythenorth> isn't found
21:34:04  <andythenorth> foo isn't found
21:37:14  <planetmaker> yeah... desync is bad bad bad
21:37:32  <planetmaker> I'll resync now with my bed, though
21:37:36  <planetmaker> good night everyone
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21:40:44  * andythenorth has misunderstood mixins
21:40:45  <andythenorth> nvm
21:45:28  * andythenorth wonders about correct way to check a method exists
21:45:35  <andythenorth> I just used hasattr()
21:45:41  <andythenorth> which works for me
21:46:19  <andythenorth> could have used dir() I guess
21:48:37  <andythenorth> bed
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22:09:59  <SamanthaD> I'm sorry if this is a silly question but it was my impression that the development branch got some sort of automatic timetable feature
22:10:13  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:10:19  <SamanthaD> I don't think it's working for me or... at least I'm not sure how to play with it
22:10:58  *** tokai|noir [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:13:15  <SamanthaD> I asked last night and they said to spread out the vehicles you set up the timetable as normal and then ctrl-click the "set start date" button but... I thought there was supposed to be a way to automate it and make it adapt to unexpected things
22:16:20  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:27:18  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a one-time step, it won't automatically adjust things later on
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22:50:35  <SamanthaD> Aweh... thanks
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23:21:09  <SamanthaD> if I patch OpenTTD and decide to remove it later, `svn -R revert .` on the top level directory will get rid of all my patches, right?
23:24:27  <SamanthaD> nevermind, I figured it out. Thanks
23:26:01  <Eddi|zuHause> just keep in mind that most patches will break savegame compatibility, even if you later compile with the same patch
23:26:26  <SamanthaD> Thanks, I'll remember that
23:40:05  <SamanthaD> also, is there a way I can ssh/ssl tunnel my svn downloads for OpenTTD?
23:51:13  <SamanthaD> ah, figured it out
23:51:41  <SamanthaD> svn checkout https://secure.openttd ect...

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