Log for #openttd on 14th September 2013:
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02:07:58  <Djohaal> hmm
02:08:03  <Djohaal> I mgiht have found a newGRF conflict
02:08:47  <Djohaal> yup I have
02:23:47  <Supercheese> which?
02:42:43  <Djohaal> depending on load order, the total towns replacement 3 can mess with ECS town buildings
02:42:52  <Djohaal> no banks or car dealerships show up
02:43:12  <Djohaal> to fix it, total towns has to reload after ECS house module it seems
03:05:08  <Djohaal> is there any branch project to simplify the cargo reffitting procedure?
03:05:17  <Supercheese> simplify how?
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03:29:29  <Djohaal> take simutrans for instance. Freight has categories such as "peice goods", "bulk goods" "frozen goods" "Liquid goods" etc
03:29:40  <Djohaal> and carriages can carry any goods of the same category without refitting
03:29:57  <Djohaal> so you can haul paper on one way to a station and then bring back the goods on the same carraige
03:30:01  <Djohaal> without having to refit
03:30:35  <Djohaal> (sure being able to auto-refit on a station can do the same mechanic, but it misses the point of mixed cargo trains)
03:31:03  <Djohaal> cargodist's potential at enhancing networking could be greatly improved if freight was handled that way. Many new approaches to hauling could stem from that
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06:21:54  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:22:06  <andythenorth> o/
07:22:42  <planetmaker> moin
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07:57:01  <LordAro> /o
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08:05:27  <LordAro> /o Zuu
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08:07:41  <Zuu> Hello
08:12:47  <dihedral> hi
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08:15:20  <dihedral> I am under the impression that CommandPacket frame is always 0?
08:15:54  <LordAro> /o Alberth
08:16:02  <Alberth> moin
08:16:18  <Rubidium> dihedral: I think you're the only one that can answer that question
08:16:37  <Rubidium> I wouldn't know if it is or isn't your impression
08:16:42  <dihedral> hehe
08:17:07  <dihedral> ok - it is 0 but i am not sure if that is intended - perhaps that you can answer?
08:18:45  <Rubidium> network_command.cpp:159
08:21:12  <dihedral> network_command.cpp:276
08:25:41  <dihedral> frame gets set at network_commands.cpp:241
08:26:42  <Rubidium> but that method is called with the command packet by value, not by reference
08:27:24  <dihedral> if it were by reference it would help :-P
08:28:02  <Rubidium> wonder why it is the case though...
08:28:41  <Rubidium> probably because it messes with the callback
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08:31:45  <dihedral> would it not make sense to call DistributeCommandPacket from inside istributeCommandPacket
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08:39:38  <Rubidium> why would it call itself?
08:41:03  <Rubidium> dihedral: ?
08:42:23  <dihedral> you ware doing a peter1138 - "i have a patch for that" :-D
08:44:00  <dihedral> i'll give that a shot
08:48:55  <dihedral> Rubidium, perfect
08:51:17  <dihedral> Thank you sir
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09:06:15  * Zuu got the somewhat silly idea to offer a page element with zero height that changes the background colour for subsequent parts of the story page. But that may be too much of 1999 :-)
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09:07:02  <Alberth> :)
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09:07:34  <Alberth> a bit of calming water-cycle coloring background :p
09:07:57  <planetmaker> :D
09:08:08  <planetmaker> that over the whole screen in sync... oh dear! :-)
09:08:19  <Zuu> :-)
09:08:31  <Alberth> there are easier ways for that, just look at a bit of sea :)
09:08:55  <planetmaker> hm, I didn't mean 'in sync' but 'in phase' :-)
09:10:54  <Alberth> ooooh dear :)
09:11:24  <planetmaker> in sync but not in phase... that can look ok :)
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09:21:57  <Zuu> But fear not. I will look into interactive page elements before considering background colours ;-)
09:22:34  <planetmaker> :D
09:23:39  <Zuu> And the idea came by that you may want to mark the form area with a slightly different background colour. Though you can help the user by simply grouping all form controls in the end of the page.
09:27:26  <Zuu> That said, this task is also quite interesting (giving GS control over which engines that companies can build):
09:27:50  <LordAro> planetmaker: <questionmark> -> toggle colouring of dirty blocks :p
09:28:49  <Zuu> Instead of the solution proposed there, I'm currently thinking about the GS setting number of vehicles allowed to buy per engine and company and have this value stored in the savegame. It makes it harder for a GS to set a max vehicle count globally instead of per company, but it will make it easier to filter out unavialable vehicles from the buy vehicle list etc.
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09:35:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i've always wished for a "vehicle factory" GS that can set maximum amounts of vehicles for purchase, which increase or decrease over time
09:35:38  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly combined with a "second hand market"
09:38:24  <dihedral> Rubidium, commit? :-P
09:47:08  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause:
09:47:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that link was posted 5 lines above
09:48:14  <Alberth> ah, sorry
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09:52:55  <andythenorth> o/
09:53:39  <Alberth> o/
09:55:12  <LordAro> o/
10:01:25  <Zuu> I just made a new post to FS#5697 regarding the solution to per engine/company set the maximum number of vehicles allowed.
10:03:00  <Zuu> Eg. do we want to have a bit more limited API but with better integration into the UI or a more flexible API (using a callback) and get all the interesting problems of non-concistent callbacks :-)
10:03:55  <Zuu> With a callback, it should probably not get information on the scope (buy list, actual purchase, autorenew or autoreplace)
10:07:36  <andythenorth> @seen pikka
10:07:36  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 18 hours, 46 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <Pikka> 1:20am, Rubidium
10:07:42  <andythenorth> @seen danmack
10:07:42  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 15 hours, 14 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <DanMacK> Hey all
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10:20:53  <frosch123> Zuu: according to newgrf we do not want to give gs intransparent callbacks which can do any random things :p
10:21:03  <frosch123> also you would have a lot of trouble with multiplayer
10:25:41  <Zuu> Right, so better offer a more limited API where the GS declare its intent and OpenTTD enforce the limit.
10:26:17  <frosch123> i still wonder about the area control
10:26:39  <frosch123> setting global things feels a bit weird if we have requests to add regional featuers at the samew time
10:26:48  <frosch123> so, one could also set vehicle limits per area
10:26:52  <Zuu> The FS task that want an area demolish? Or the idea to via GS limit construction to areas?
10:26:55  <frosch123> *construction limits
10:27:05  <frosch123> resp. the reverse: count player actions in an area
10:27:23  <frosch123> <- i mean that kind of stuff
10:28:04  <andythenorth> regions are worth trying to add
10:28:10  <andythenorth> allows 'unlock' style of GS
10:28:37  <frosch123> yeah, they sound nice in theory... but so far i have not seen a gs idea which would make me want to code it
10:28:48  <Zuu> Limits 0 < x < INF sounds hard to do with regions. Do you only add vehicles that currently are located in the region to the limit or still use the global vehicle count?
10:29:08  <andythenorth> frosch123: the supply of both good GS ideas and GS coders could be bigger :)
10:29:11  <frosch123> Zuu: no, i only meant construction limits
10:29:25  <andythenorth> hmm
10:29:31  * andythenorth wonders why writing GS is unappealing
10:30:19  <Zuu> The construction limit I have in mind set a limit on max number of vehicles (per company and per engine type). If the GS lower the limit, the company will still keep all its vehicles.
10:31:19  <Zuu> That API allows both enabling different engines to different companies and eg max 2 engines of each type. (or even varying limits per type)
10:31:21  <frosch123> i wondered about keeping track of actions, and limit their amount
10:31:39  <frosch123> so, a gs could say: you are only allowed to build 100 engines
10:31:56  <Zuu> That API do however not allow "max 5 strong engines (engine id 1, 2 or 3) and max 20 weak engines (engine id 4, 5 or 6)
10:32:00  <LordAro> andythenorth: probably the same reason writing a newgrf is unappealing to me :p
10:32:09  <andythenorth> which is...?
10:32:23  <frosch123> and if it want to raise that limit to 200, i would read that there were 50 constructed, and then set a construction limit to 150
10:32:27  <frosch123> so 50 + 150 = 200
10:32:27  <Zuu> frosch123: Unless you complete a goal which as a reward increase the limit to 200.
10:32:40  <LordAro> dunno :p something about having to learn a new language?
10:32:56  <frosch123> though unless you set the area to match the whole map, you would still be able to import engines from other areas :p
10:32:58  <Zuu> frosch123: No the GS set the total number allowed. 100 or 200 in this case.
10:33:02  <frosch123> or even import them and then sell them :p
10:33:20  <frosch123> Zuu: yeah, but an absolute limit only works globally
10:33:32  <frosch123> unless you have a fancy idea to assign a vehicle to a region
10:33:45  <Zuu> I don't
10:34:12  <Zuu> Other than possible checking if its location match the region area, but that may be too expansive.
10:35:01  <frosch123> i think it wouldn't be too expensive, but vehicles travelling between regions would it kind of make random whether you can build something or not
10:35:37  <Zuu> yes, and you could exploit it by moving all engines out of a region.
10:36:15  <Zuu> Unless that is the whole GS idea - only allow construction of engines at specific areas of the map.
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10:36:31  <frosch123> the exploting would also work for the construction limits per area
10:36:37  <frosch123> i guess there the positional limit would be better
10:37:46  <oskari89> frosch123:
10:37:56  <Zuu> A construction limit requires the GS to do more background work. And it will always lag behind a bit due to how they operate.
10:38:19  <frosch123> not if ottd updates the limits differentially
10:38:37  <oskari89> That musa error certainly seems challenging issue
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10:43:38  <andythenorth> how do I mute sound on game start screen?
10:45:09  <andythenorth> if I don't forget to mute the laptop, the kids hear the sound effects and want to play TTD
10:46:02  <Zuu> Change the sound set/music set
10:46:09  <frosch123> select nomusic and nosound base sets?
10:46:11  <LordAro> or edit config file
10:47:06  <frosch123> or make a desktop symlink "ottd without kids" which starts ottd with parameters "-s null -m null"
10:50:09  <andythenorth> :D
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11:34:12  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25770 trunk/src/network/network_command.cpp (2013-09-14 11:34:09 UTC)
11:34:13  <DorpsGek> -Fix [Admin]: the frame of a command packet wasn't set for the packets that were sent via de admin interface
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12:16:38  <andythenorth> this is quite interesting imo
12:18:39  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25771 trunk/src/story_gui.cpp (2013-09-14 12:18:36 UTC)
12:18:40  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r25344): If story book content changed height due a string parameter changing length, the scrollbar was not updated
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12:57:37  <opti> Is there a known issue with the electric train not showing up as buildable even after its announced as a new train?
12:57:51  <Alberth> no
12:58:09  <Alberth> do you have a depot for electric rail?
12:58:44  <opti> well its only like 1980, i still only have the normal rail
12:59:01  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r25772 trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp (2013-09-14 12:58:58 UTC)
12:59:02  <DorpsGek> -Add: Additional layered main toolbar arrangement
12:59:17  <Alberth> if you have electric trains, probably you also have electric rail :)
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12:59:38  <Wolf01> hello
13:00:39  <Alberth>  <-- opti
13:00:41  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
13:02:45  <opti> I see
13:03:08  <opti> I'm basing play off the original ttd
13:03:47  <Alberth> the original also had different kinds of railways :)
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16:17:50  <oskari89> Tt-forums a bit laggy now
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17:20:11  <Djohaal> is sprite_cache_size_px the parameter I must increase to reduce lag when zooming out?
17:22:43  <Alberth> sounds logical, why not try it?
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17:45:50  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25773 /trunk/src/lang (6 files) (2013-09-14 17:45:41 UTC)
17:45:51  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:52  <DorpsGek> english_US - 2 changes by Rubidium
17:45:53  <DorpsGek> finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
17:45:54  <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
17:45:55  <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 2 changes by Stabilitronas
17:45:56  <DorpsGek> russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:45:57  <DorpsGek> spanish - 2 changes by Terkhen
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19:09:13  <retro|cz> Any reason why there are no tags in game git repo?
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19:14:41  <frosch123> svn is the master repository
19:14:46  <frosch123> git and hg only contain trunk
19:14:57  <frosch123> and trunk does not have tags
19:20:59  <andythenorth> hrmm
19:21:06  <andythenorth> how to make a tender locomotive
19:22:22  <frosch123> give the driver a quiff
19:22:51  <andythenorth> wtf am I happy having a 3-level subclass chain for wagons
19:23:03  <andythenorth> but I insist on sticking to a 2-level chain for locos
19:23:10  * andythenorth makes no sense
19:23:40  <frosch123> oh, yeah! a set with a single engine and 100s of wagon types would be something new :p
19:24:02  <andythenorth> this was a python-specific whine
19:24:06  <andythenorth> but now you gave me an idea :P
19:24:27  <andythenorth> o/t how many times do you repeat yourself before abstracting the common stuff?
19:24:56  <andythenorth> I don't think twice is enough of a case.
19:25:36  <andythenorth> abstracting every time there are two instances of a thing leads to the wrong kind of over-engineering imo
19:25:51  <andythenorth> three times is a hint
19:26:01  <andythenorth> four times is a big flashing sign
19:26:23  <andythenorth> also this wine is good
19:26:34  * Alberth uses the "more than three times expected" as criterium
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19:27:52  <andythenorth> makes sense
19:28:09  <andythenorth> hmm
19:28:29  <andythenorth> proper class for steam engine tenders, or a funny little dict of values?
19:28:37  * andythenorth thinks funny little dict
19:31:15  <Rubidium> frosch123: and to make it worse... the release branch tags aren't 100% the state of the release branch ;)
19:33:09  <andythenorth> urgh
19:33:18  <andythenorth> child #1 has been playing toyland :(
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19:35:46  <andythenorth> what are the properties needed for a steam engine tender?  Length
19:35:51  <andythenorth> anything else?
19:36:01  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause ^ you coded trains?
19:36:08  <Eddi|zuHause> always set all properties
19:36:20  <andythenorth> I can set them in nml
19:36:28  <andythenorth> just wondering which ones are *interesting*
19:36:37  <andythenorth> weight?
19:37:01  <V453000> ...
19:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> weight for articulated parts is ignored (should be 0)
19:37:42  <V453000> I personally use 8 length engine, and 8 length tender - but sprites of train can be e.g. 10 and tender 6
19:38:05  <V453000> which I think is quite a functional approach
19:38:06  * Eddi|zuHause vaguely remembers a table which properties can be set for articulated parts
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19:38:25  <V453000>
19:38:49  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: might cause weird effects with like the czech tunnel entrances
19:39:11  <V453000> the czech tunnel entrances look very wrong in that regard with all other vehicles just as well
19:39:21  <andythenorth> nml spec tells what can be set
19:39:40  <Eddi|zuHause> also it might stick out the back of any tunnel entrances if the sprite is too big
19:40:57  <andythenorth> afaict only length is interesting
19:41:04  <andythenorth> rest can be same as front part
19:41:06  <andythenorth> or 0
19:41:39  <Eddi|zuHause> if the difference between "same as front" and "0" is not "interesting"...
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19:42:56  <V453000> might, but doesnt Eddi :)
19:42:57  <V453000> tested
19:43:17  <Eddi|zuHause> alright
19:43:34  <V453000> actually in some cases they do a little bit
19:43:41  <V453000> but they are so fast that you barely notice it
19:43:45  <Eddi|zuHause> at least in TTO i think the default ore wagon glitched with tunnels
19:45:17  <V453000> it is quite easy to make those glitches with just offsets (2cc set 1.0.1) :)
19:46:23  <V453000> which gets a lot more problematic as then all vehicles glitch
19:46:40  <Eddi|zuHause> well i'm fairly sure the CETS method is sophisticated enough to not glitch with tunnels
19:46:42  <V453000> if only the leading engine of my steamers shows for a tiny period of time it isnt that terrible :)
19:46:46  <V453000> :)
19:46:56  <V453000> cets ever being done?
19:47:10  <Eddi|zuHause> no :p
19:49:27  <V453000> hm any way to make a slow train have high station rating?
19:49:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i already forgot (again) how pixa works...
19:49:33  <andythenorth> :(
19:50:38  <andythenorth> me too :)
19:50:51  <andythenorth> but I'm going to relearn it for FISH and suchlike
19:51:33  <andythenorth> it scans a spritesheet, and replaces certain pixels with maps / transforms of other pixels
19:51:41  <andythenorth> thereby making pictures :P
19:51:53  <frosch123> V453000: maybe you can cheat the system by reporting a higher max speed when the train is slow
19:52:06  <frosch123> so it reports highspeed when stopping at a station
19:52:13  <frosch123> while it is slow when actually driving
19:52:18  <V453000> LOL
19:52:29  <frosch123> call it teaser train or so
19:53:02  <Eddi|zuHause> max speed might be cached, though, so changes by callbacks might not take effect at the intended time
19:53:18  <frosch123> yeah, it might also just desync :p
19:53:23  <retro|cz> frosch123, yup, I understand. But is there any technical limitation?
19:53:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it shouldn't desync
19:53:47  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: all caching desyncs
19:53:47  <Eddi|zuHause> at least if the cached speed is saved
19:54:00  <frosch123> no caches are saved, that's the issue :p
19:54:09  <frosch123> it desyncs on join
19:54:49  <frosch123> V453000: yeah, speed is only updated when the consist changes
19:54:50  <V453000> vehicle_is_stopped also when it just stops, not stopping it manually, right?
19:54:55  <V453000> mhm fuck
19:55:12  <Eddi|zuHause> stopped is when it shows red flag
19:55:15  <frosch123> so, won't work
19:55:36  <V453000> I assume wagon speed limits cause the train speed to be reduced and take station rating from there
19:55:45  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:56:10  <Eddi|zuHause> just use FIRS to set station rating to 100% :)
19:56:21  <V453000> I need it only for 3 engines
19:56:23  <V453000> not all
19:56:45  <V453000> they are to have low speed but high station ratings would make a lot of sense
19:56:54  <Eddi|zuHause> new property: rating bonus of the engine :)
19:56:57  <frosch123> oh, you could also make airdrag insanely high
19:57:05  <frosch123> so they just never reach the advertised maxspeed
19:57:12  <V453000> airdrag is only tunnels isnt it
19:57:28  <Eddi|zuHause> airdrag is everywhere, just in tunnels it's higher
19:57:45  <andythenorth> rating bonus o_O
19:57:53  <andythenorth> allows for 'prestige' :D
19:58:06  <andythenorth> FIRS 100% is silly btw :)
19:58:09  <andythenorth> but you knew that
19:58:16  <frosch123> V453000: no, i think it even works downhill
19:58:22  <V453000> lol
19:58:59  <V453000> HA
19:59:04  <V453000> I got it
19:59:27  <V453000> if a train has 265 kmh speed, but tracks allow 120, train speed is still 265 and rating taken from that, correct? :)
19:59:33  <frosch123> and yes, airdrag is more inside tunnels
20:00:43  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: that i am really not sure...
20:01:06  <V453000> only one way to find out then :)
20:01:20  <V453000> but if it does, there goes my soluton :)
20:01:58  <frosch123> why not penalise tunnels?
20:02:08  <frosch123> bridges are more fun, aren't they?
20:02:22  <V453000> bridges are already way easier to build?
20:02:44  <V453000> only advantage tunnels have is when you build more of them atop of each other or under other obstacles
20:02:55  <V453000> in most cases bridges are better
20:03:18  <frosch123> are they? i expected tunnels to be better, because you can stack them
20:03:20  <V453000> also tunners are more awesome :>
20:03:48  <frosch123> well, and i thought some animals might be scared of the darkness of the tunnel
20:03:50  <V453000> yes but the minimal requirements on bridge heads is used a lot more often
20:04:26  <V453000> each does something a bit different ... it is fine as is :) no need to penalize either
20:06:03  <V453000> When a train reduces its speed on a slower track, the max speed in the train info window does not reduce
20:06:09  <V453000> does that mean success for me? :D
20:06:20  <V453000> oh SHIT
20:06:26  <V453000> I just realized universal rail wont work with that :d
20:06:32  <V453000> hmm
20:07:11  <V453000> hmmm
20:08:21  <V453000> would need its own universal rail, or can anybody think of a different solution?
20:08:30  <V453000> (univ rail has no limit atm and should not have one)
20:09:09  <V453000> well perhaps wetrails could be a form of universal track :>
20:09:35  <V453000> nobody would use it cause of the speed limit anyway
20:09:49  <TWerkhoven> can you show the non-wet-trains as half-submerged on wetrails?
20:10:00  <V453000> LOL
20:10:06  <TWerkhoven> diesel and steam only
20:10:26  <TWerkhoven> and highly increased drag as opposed to a set max speed
20:10:43  <frosch123> steam trains get a speed bonus though
20:10:53  <frosch123> they do not have to stop to fill up water
20:11:24  <TWerkhoven> or fish suppers for the crew
20:12:04  <V453000> can I make non-wetrail trains not available to purchase in wetrail depot?
20:12:43  <V453000> if all trains can drive on the wetrail?
20:13:22  <frosch123> elrails can drive on normal rails, but are not purchaseable there
20:13:51  <V453000> they cant?
20:13:51  <V453000> or
20:13:57  <frosch123> hmm, but well, you would still need at least one wet engine per consist
20:14:05  <V453000> mhm
20:14:15  <V453000> I see
20:14:15  <frosch123> so, likely you cannot hack that :p
20:15:24  <V453000> I suppose there is no way to make all-but-wetrail trains drive full-speed on a universal rail which has limit of 120
20:17:57  <frosch123> i think you can make maxspeed depend on railtype
20:18:05  <frosch123> (that is from the train pov)
20:18:15  <V453000> o_O
20:18:24  <frosch123> yeah, looks like max speed is updated when railtype changes
20:20:35  <V453000> current_railtype ?
20:20:44  <frosch123> something like that
20:20:49  <V453000> oh hm that doesnt actually help me
20:21:28  <V453000> still doesnt make vehicles travel higher speed than track speed
20:22:15  <V453000> I think a new special universal rail only for ship transition is kind of necessary
20:22:31  <V453000> perhaps a new kind of wetrail
20:22:39  <Zuu> Hmm, is there any idea in trying to define an API for GSes to define vehicle limits. Eg. ask people to come up with different limitation schemas that they would like to do and see if it is possible to make an API so that the GS can describe this to OpenTTD? I tried to discuss on FS but only got answers that the callback solution is superior from GS point of view. Which I can agree, but it has some implementation challenges and unwanted consequences.
20:23:19  <V453000> hm well wouldnt gain terribly much by that either
20:23:34  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, why is my parser not parsing a correctly formed statement?
20:23:34  <V453000> will probably just allow all trains to drive on wetrail, screw the mess in depot
20:33:42  <Alberth> Zuu: just at most n vehicles for each type, and perhaps a callback m (m<=n) vehicles of this type reached
20:34:06  <Alberth> but polling would be ok to me too
20:34:09  <frosch123> just go for the global limits then
20:34:19  <frosch123> similar as for towngrowth
20:35:31  <frosch123> callbacks are an "easy" method to add a lot of power to scripts, but they will bite you quickly just like newgrf do
20:35:56  <frosch123> and since gs only run on the server, it will be even worse than newgrf
20:36:02  <frosch123> no gui feedback at all
20:36:09  <frosch123> and ais will be screwed as well
20:36:12  <Alberth> engine-id is already too complicated imho; at some year, the choice of engines is limited already
20:36:31  <Alberth> ais also run at the server?
20:36:33  <frosch123> i think limit per company, per vehicle type
20:36:39  <frosch123> maybe max train length in tiles
20:36:48  <frosch123> Alberth: ais and gs only run on the server
20:36:58  <frosch123> everything they do must be broadcasted from/to clients
20:38:23  <frosch123> also ottd has no control over the state of scripts
20:38:34  <frosch123> for newgrf ottd can do testruns and then discard all changes
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20:38:38  <frosch123> for scripts that is impossible
20:39:05  <frosch123> so, in the end, i think script callbacks can only result in a crappy interface
20:39:07  <Zuu> A problem with a callback that m <= n vehicles has been reached is that the callback will not be allowed to change 'n' as that is a DoCommand call.
20:39:44  <Alberth> Zuu: ah, ok. then it must poll
20:40:03  <Alberth> ie it must store "limit reached" anyway, so polling is just as easy
20:40:28  <Zuu> We can supply an event EventVehicleBought, but scripts need to poll the event queue to see if there are any incomming event.
20:40:45  <Alberth> they need to do that anyway, right?
20:41:03  <frosch123> Zuu: why do they need to know about "vehilce bought"?
20:41:19  <Zuu> only if they want to do more complex limits than allowed by the API
20:41:26  <Alberth> "cargo moved" also does polling, and nobody complained afaik
20:41:38  <Zuu> Eg. max 5 of engine A or B.
20:42:24  <Alberth> Zuu: so how do you enforce that then?
20:42:42  <peter1138> Don't we have ... settings presets yet?
20:42:48  <frosch123> i wouldn't know how gs should make a sensible limit per engine type
20:42:54  <frosch123> they have no idea how engines work
20:43:02  <frosch123> whether you need two per consist or similar
20:43:18  <Alberth> per engine type is too complicated imho
20:43:24  <Zuu> GSes has access to the same engine information as AIs, just that they cannot build them to figure out how they work (rail vehicles)
20:43:58  <Eddi|zuHause> anything like that must be provided by the NewGRF
20:44:16  <Alberth> alternatively, a GS can give permission to buy "n" vehicles
20:44:24  <Eddi|zuHause> gnah... i still have no idea why the parsing fails :/
20:44:38  <Alberth> then you get full control quite easily
20:45:04  <Zuu> My initial idea of an API was that the GS can set "n" number of allowed vehicles of engine X and company Y.
20:45:34  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: anything we can understand?
20:45:42  <Alberth> Zuu: and that failed because?
20:45:47  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not
20:46:06  <frosch123> Zuu: maybe we need an experimental branch for experimental script apis :)
20:46:45  <Zuu> Alberth: That will fail if a GS want to set the limit to max "n" vehicles of a group of engines.
20:47:15  <Zuu> We could add that too to the API, though the question is where to stop :-)
20:47:46  <Alberth> at "GS can set "n" number of allowed vehicles of engine X and company Y.", imho
20:48:19  <Rubidium> peter1138: I thought you already had a patch for that :D
20:48:50  <Alberth> the number of useful engines is not big enough at anyone time, to make such complicated stuff useful, imho
20:50:23  <Zuu> Unless you play with 2CC :-)
20:50:30  <Eddi|zuHause> or CETS :)
20:50:44  <frosch123> why would a gs want to set a limit on a specific engine id?
20:50:57  <frosch123> what would be the criterion?
20:51:06  <Rubidium> to fake a manufacturer being able to only make X vehicles a year
20:51:29  <Zuu> Or to require you to use all engine types and not just one.
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20:51:43  <Rubidium> i.e. the word thou shan't speak of
20:51:52  <Zuu> Or to identify good engines and only reward them when you complete a goal.
20:51:57  <V453000> ratings seem to be 93% With statues and 120-km-limt on tracks with vehicles with 266 speed :)
20:51:58  <frosch123> you cannot restrict stuff per cargo type, because that will fail horribly with refitting
20:52:08  <frosch123> so, the only criterions might be speed or pax/cargo maybe
20:52:15  <frosch123> or well, diversity
20:52:59  <Zuu> speed, hp, tractive effort?
20:53:12  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: i'm fairly sure you're solving the wrong problem :)
20:53:12  <frosch123> sounds the same to me
20:53:36  <frosch123> those three more affect hilly land / flat land
20:53:52  <frosch123> and i wouldn't know how a gs would mess with that
20:54:09  <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: ?
20:54:50  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: trying to abuse speed to modify rating seems Wrong(tm)
20:55:00  <V453000> wrong why
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20:55:11  <frosch123> the more i think about limiting stuff with gs, the more it feels completely wrong
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20:55:28  <frosch123> i think gs should rather poll statistics, make a goal/story page for a rating
20:55:29  <V453000> the train speed influence on station rating is total wtf itself already
20:55:39  <frosch123> and just force "game over" to companies which do not play to the rules
20:55:47  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: yes. so solve that :)
20:55:59  <V453000> im okay with my current solution
20:56:07  <frosch123> so, just add a gs command to charge a penalty money sum from a company
20:56:12  <frosch123> and be done with everything?
20:56:18  <Zuu> frosch123: With respect to vehicles, I see it more as the ability to give rewards based on completed goals.
20:56:23  <frosch123> building restrictions for vehicles seem to make no sense to me
20:56:24  <Eddi|zuHause> it just sounds too elaborate for the player and easy to break
20:56:38  <V453000> my players can accept elaborate things
20:56:55  <frosch123> Zuu: that assumes that gs can idenitfy a specific special engine
20:57:01  <frosch123> which i do not see happen at all
20:57:20  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: if it depends on railtypes, what about when someone combines it with a different railtype set?
20:57:30  <V453000> fuck them?
20:57:38  <frosch123> restricing construction per map area sounds a lot more reasonable
20:57:39  <Zuu> Or set the limit to eg. 10 vehicles (globally for a company) and when you complete a goal, you get 10 more and a new goal.
20:57:44  <frosch123> than restricting what stuff to build
20:58:04  <frosch123> Zuu: that's a limit per vehicle type (train, rv, ship, air)
20:58:13  <frosch123> i think those would work, but not per engine id
20:58:15  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: a lot of grf developers fell down this "people use only my GRFs" trap
20:58:19  <V453000> I dont think anything happens if you add an extra railtype to nuts though, especially will not touch the thing we talk about now
20:58:38  <frosch123> i.e. limits for number of consists, and maybe consist length, but not for specific engines
20:58:40  <V453000> I dont care which newGRFs people use or if they use other than NUTS
20:59:03  <Zuu> frosch123: Yep that would be a limit per vehicle type, but also per company (as opposed to the setting we already have in advanced settings)
20:59:24  <frosch123> yes, i think such limits would work fine :)
20:59:44  <frosch123> you could also restrict the length of bridges per company :p
20:59:55  <frosch123> all those weird gameplay settings could be made per company :p
21:00:01  <V453000> NUTS alone is fairly incompatible with any other train set, and track sets should not influence much .. soo meh?
21:00:08  <frosch123> "reward: build on slopes" :p
21:00:13  <Zuu> :-D
21:00:22  <frosch123> or even, research "build on slopes"
21:01:13  <frosch123> or even a question: you can research either "build on slopes" or "tunnels with length > 5"
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21:01:47  <Alberth> lol
21:01:52  <Zuu> And with the API to take money from a company, charge a cost for research :-)
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21:02:20  <frosch123> i think charging or granting money might be generally useful for game control
21:03:54  <Zuu> Although one argument for giving control to set restrictions is that a well defined restriction is possible better than charging fines from companies that don't play by the rules.
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21:04:49  <frosch123> yeah, i agree vehicle type limits might be useful per company :)
21:05:03  <frosch123> but as said, i don't see a a usecase for engine id limits
21:06:38  <Zuu> Set all limits to zero for all types except the worst. Enable persintent engines. Then unlock more engines as rewards or when researched. (at earliest at the introduction date)
21:06:54  *** tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:07:24  <Zuu> It may be a different game than OpenTTD, but someone may want to play that game.
21:09:27  <frosch123> even for that "engine id" is the wrong criterion
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21:11:18  <Zuu> The criterion would not be the actual engine id value. What I mean is that it can set the limit per engine id. The GS would need to use the GSEngine API to find out details about each engine to compare them. Just like an AI does when choosing which engine to buy.
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21:12:33  <Zuu> Or do you mean that setting a limit per engine id is wrong? What is wrong with that?
21:13:39  <frosch123> i mean that the idea that the gsengine shall use the api to identify certain engine types and restrict those is flawed
21:14:36  <frosch123> restricting consist numbers is fine, or restricting "technological year" (only train vehicles < 1960 for company 1) is fine
21:14:58  <frosch123> but "only 5 engines of id 13" will break
21:15:23  <frosch123> how and how many engines are needed for a sensible consist is entirely newgrf defined
21:15:30  <frosch123> gs should not mess with that
21:20:01  <Zuu> Ok I see. You propose that the GS should only do such control at a higher level (technology year)
21:20:25  <frosch123> yeah, basically you see what trouble ais have with deciding engines
21:20:39  <frosch123> extending that to gs will ruin the game for humans :p
21:20:57  <Zuu> fair point
21:21:12  <frosch123> esp. with numerical limits instead of available/not available limits
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21:21:51  <Zuu> the numerical limit could be used as available/not available. Which is what I had mostly in mind for a research GS.
21:22:45  <frosch123> yeah, but it also makes you not attach multiple engines to the same consist
21:23:31  <frosch123> so, it promotes playing in flat terrain
21:23:50  <frosch123> it does not promote building interesting routes
21:24:58  <Zuu> It could promote buliding around the mountain instead of just over it.
21:25:04  <Eddi|zuHause> argh....
21:25:11  <Eddi|zuHause> "LITERAL" != "literal"
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21:26:25  <Zuu> But any sort of competitive GS will promote a possible more dirty non-nice looking playing style.
21:26:54  <NGC3982> mjew
21:29:30  <andythenorth> good night
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21:43:23  <Zuu> night
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21:55:02  <retro|cz> Is;a=commit;h=e4409697047d76c035f55a4b6c4e2cfe74776c13 1.3.2 final patch?
21:55:57  <planetmaker> no
21:56:12  <planetmaker> releases have their own tags
21:56:43  <planetmaker> and checking out those only works sensibly by means of subversion
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22:00:44  <retro|cz> planetmaker, I know. But I asked earlier and there are no git tags in git mirror.
22:02:12  <Eddi|zuHause> that is why you should check out the svn, and not the git mirror
22:02:19  <retro|cz> and sorry, but I don't know how to work with svn :/
22:02:27  <retro|cz> but there is some tool git-svn
22:02:31  <retro|cz> I try that.
22:02:37  <planetmaker> retro|cz, yes, there aren't. And with git or hg you won't get the release versions. That's it
22:03:00  <Eddi|zuHause> svn is easy: "svn checkout <url> <directory>"
22:03:24  <planetmaker> retro|cz, and tbh, even if you use git-svn, I'd assume it fails to build a release version :-)
22:03:29  <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure <url> ends with /tags/1.x.y
22:03:29  <planetmaker> not a. but the
22:04:06  <retro|cz> I don't want to build release version. I just want to make patch against a patch for 1.3.2 source and I want to keep git history.
22:05:09  <retro|cz> So I don't want to download 1.3.2 sources but to checkout it via some scm and I'm git user and I want to work in multiple branches. AFAIK svn doesn't support branches in git way.
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22:05:17  <Eddi|zuHause> it generally makes no sense to patch a release
22:05:34  <planetmaker> retro|cz, what sense does it have in your eyes to patch a release version?
22:05:51  <retro|cz> I want to do patch of 1.3.2 targeted patch.
22:06:05  *** tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:06:38  <planetmaker> retro|cz, that's not the question? What sense does a 1.3.2 patch make (at all) in your eyes?
22:07:07  <planetmaker> what advantage over patching current trunk?
22:07:23  <retro|cz> have own patches to customize main menu and theirs servers runs 1.3.2 version
22:07:28  <retro|cz> so client should use same version
22:08:07  <planetmaker> it can't have custom main menu and be 1.3.2
22:08:17  <planetmaker> That's - sorry - plain bullshit to call it 1.3.2
22:08:32  <planetmaker> that's leading people to believe it is - while it is like r24xxxM
22:08:40  <Terkhen> good night
22:08:43  <retro|cz> there is some new UI to login into statistics
22:08:45  <planetmaker> good night Terkhen
22:08:51  *** tokai|noir [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:09:04  <retro|cz> you can play without that patch there, that is just easy login and server selection
22:09:05  <planetmaker> retro|cz, that UI is only present for *patched* clients
22:09:09  <retro|cz> yup
22:09:26  <planetmaker> so it's not 1.3.2. But custom patches. Thus they shouldn't call it 1.3.2
22:10:26  <planetmaker> And honestly, distributing builds called "1.3.2" which are custom-patched... is cheating. And asking for big trouble
22:10:41  <retro|cz> sure, but the diff I have is for 1.3.2. That was my first question, if that git commit (svn revision 25631) is 1.3.2 release base.
22:10:54  <retro|cz> It is not called OpenTTD 1.3.2
22:11:06  <retro|cz> It is called client 1.3.2 AFAIK
22:11:22  <retro|cz> so you know it is modified client based on 1.3.2 of original OpenTTD
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22:13:38  <retro|cz> I think that's fair enough planetmaker. I'm not sure how they are distributing it, since I can't reach servers for some reason :/
22:14:07  <planetmaker> probably similar to all fake-stable servers do
22:14:21  <planetmaker> I ceased to care about those
22:14:45  <ST2> yes, it's a hacked (1.3.2) version - as stated on our website
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22:14:54  <retro|cz> planetmaker, I think servers are same. I'm not sure.
22:15:01  <planetmaker> retro|cz, of course not
22:16:07  <TWerkhoven> no, it looks like they added more non-gui-specific patches
22:16:56  <retro|cz> yup
22:17:00  <retro|cz> I'm reading patch now.
22:17:10  <retro|cz> it's based at 25739
22:17:14  <retro|cz> on
22:19:31  <LordAro> yup, you certainly shouldn't be calling either version '1.3.2' because both server and client are clearly not
22:19:38  <LordAro> (imo :) )
22:20:53  <retro|cz> OK, I'm not part of
22:21:40  <retro|cz> I just wanted to know why there are no tags in git (maybe some technical problems)?
22:22:00  <planetmaker> git is not svn
22:22:01  <ST2> [23:19:20] <LordAro> yup, you certainly shouldn't be calling either version '1.3.2' because both server and client are clearly not <<-- incorrect
22:22:10  <ST2> server is unpatched
22:22:17  <ST2> client is
22:22:28  <LordAro> what's the point of the client modifications?
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22:22:47  <ST2> sorry for that and for "hacking" the revision number
22:22:50  <retro|cz> planetmaker, I know difference. But when you're doing new release, it is one more command to create git tag and second to push new git tag.
22:23:03  *** tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:23:03  <ST2> but that's all explained on our website
22:23:30  <ST2> saying the changes applied and not to complain here if using it
22:23:44  <planetmaker> retro|cz, a git tag is not an svn tag
22:23:48  <retro|cz> planetmaker, I know
22:24:19  <planetmaker> so no, it's not like "just adding a tag". And no, git is just a mirror of our primary SCM: which happens to be svn
22:26:18  <LordAro> ST2: ok, so only the client is modified (still don't understand why). however, since you publish the binary, according to gpl you must also publish the source (or modifications to existing) where is it?
22:26:45  <retro|cz> planetmaker, I know. I also called it git mirror.
22:26:57  <ST2> when downloading the binary... diff files are included
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22:27:19  <ST2> and yes... I respect that Mr. LordAro :)
22:28:37  <planetmaker> the one which I downloaded contains two diff files...?
22:29:04  <ST2> true
22:29:11  <retro|cz> planetmaker, I'm able to make a script to get tag revisions and find them in git and add proper tags. Are you interested into that?
22:29:25  <ST2> 1 was made using Wininet for somethings
22:29:37  <ST2> note: it's a server thingy stuff
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22:29:40  <planetmaker> ST2, so the question remains: which is the diff you use?
22:29:49  <planetmaker> and... is the server patched or not?
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22:29:53  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:30:03  <ST2> the exe included: normal diff
22:30:06  <planetmaker> how can it be a server-thingy stuff if it's client-side?
22:30:26  <ST2> the OS_Crossover can be compiled on Mac and Linux
22:30:52  <ST2> @planetmaker, already tested it?
22:31:03  <planetmaker> no
22:31:10  <ST2> preciselly
22:31:16  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, how weird, my template files are sprinkled with colour index 15 instead of 255 in some places outside the sprites
22:31:20  <ST2> that's why your question ^^
22:31:32  <retro|cz> planetmaker, I played at servers with vanilla 1.3.2 downloaded from without problems.
22:31:39  <retro|cz> for long time
22:31:50  <planetmaker> ST2, no. I should not need to ask the question. I should have a clear indication of "this is the source to this binary we provide"
22:32:15  <LordAro> ST2: ah, ok - it is not obvious that the diffs are inside the download
22:32:20  <planetmaker> and not have to wonder "hey, which of the diffs actually was the source to what I got?"
22:32:37  <planetmaker> (technically, a diff is no source either - but we're no hypocrites)
22:33:24  <ST2> a diff is a differences file... got it
22:34:04  <ST2> and well... test the exe (normal diff)
22:34:14  <planetmaker> I can't test an "exe"
22:34:22  <planetmaker> err-no-such-OS
22:34:27  <ST2> I'll exclude the other one - if makes you happy
22:35:00  <ST2> well, it's said on download page... that's a windows version
22:35:07  <LordAro> oh, and not bundling ottd correctly (not including other files) is not proper either, iirc
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22:36:14  <planetmaker> ST2, yes, I know that I downloaded the windows version. I don't complain about that :-)
22:36:43  <ST2> I'm sorry to dnt be able to provide a linux version
22:36:57  <ST2> but made it work
22:37:02  <planetmaker> that's not easy. There's not one linux. But... dozens
22:37:15  <ST2> I know ^^
22:38:00  <planetmaker> but why do you need the two diffs? Can't you compile the windows, linux and osx version from the very same patched source, thus only one diff?
22:38:10  <planetmaker> I still didn't get quite why there's two of those
22:38:39  <ST2> the OS_Crossover.diff included makes some weird delays
22:38:53  *** tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:38:56  <ST2> maybe I'm not using correct functions
22:39:22  <ST2> already compiled on Linux and MacOS and worked
22:39:27  <planetmaker> then you should offer that diff simply separately below the windows downloads. And not include in the downloads of the windows packages
22:39:43  <ST2> ok
22:39:52  <ST2> will do...
22:40:07  <planetmaker> would be cleaner IMHO. And you should create, as lordaro said, a real bundle. Which includes more (check out what our downloads include)
22:40:10  <ST2> sorry for the disturb
22:41:34  <ST2> note: will change that on next release.... ok?
22:41:56  <planetmaker> well, I don't care about those changes really. It's for your users. Not mine ;-)
22:42:51  <planetmaker> the "should" comes from openttd missing some info which it will rely on having in some situations. But which you don't ship
22:42:56  <ST2> we know.... because we're the ones keeping OpenTTD alive (as users) - but always trying to keep close to people that make it possible :)
22:43:08  <planetmaker> as your releases don't include all required files
22:43:25  <planetmaker> also msvc has something like make bundle
22:43:37  <ST2> @planetmaker, wich more files are needed?
22:43:45  <planetmaker> check out our bundles :-)
22:43:47  <planetmaker> everything in there
22:43:53  <LordAro> "we know.... because we're the ones keeping OpenTTD alive (as users)" oof
22:44:21  <LordAro> running 'make bundle' will do the job
22:44:53  <ST2> LordAro.... please don't hide my remaining words"...- but always trying to keep close to people that make it possible :)"
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22:45:37  <LordAro> and not including C:\build_essentials references (or whatever) in the patch would help too
22:45:48  <LordAro>, my original statement stands
22:46:11  <ST2> well, that was the path I used... each one can change
22:46:26  <planetmaker> ST2, ai, baseset, game, lang, scripts dirs
22:47:01  <planetmaker> which contain support files for AI compatibility layers, TTD base set and GS support
22:47:14  <ST2> planetmaker, I'll include it on next server version release
22:47:49  <ST2> but I must ask you some "sorry" for changing the code and compile it as 1.3.2
22:47:50  <LordAro> or, 'make bundle' instead of whatever you did - puts it all into a nice convenient bundle/ dir
22:48:06  <planetmaker> LordAro, does MSVC have that?
22:48:08  <ST2> ofc, not released as OpenTTD 1.3.2
22:48:18  <ST2> but as BTPro 1.3.2
22:48:32  <LordAro> planetmaker: not sure, but you should be able to change the build command
22:48:58  <planetmaker> I have never used it, but I recall it needs some knowledge on how to achieve that with MSVC
22:49:15  <LordAro> ST2: as long as you change the actual version, rather than just the gui string, that'll be fine
22:49:35  <planetmaker> actually :-)
22:49:39  <ST2> you can check code changes
22:49:47  <LordAro> planetmaker: told you :p
22:49:48  <ST2> mostly GUI stuff
22:49:49  <planetmaker> so not taht easy
22:50:24  <planetmaker> so it's basically some main menu gui to access other services on your servers, ST2 ?
22:50:51  <planetmaker> other services as in "other programmes which are not openttd"?
22:50:59  <planetmaker> like DB or stuff
22:51:17  <ST2> it's a client.... changed... with some new buttons to allow easy login on servers (mostly)
22:51:37  <ST2> diff file it's there
22:51:51  <LordAro> planetmaker: hmm, i'm not convinced by that - if codeblocks/eclipse can change a build command, i'm sure msvc must be able to
22:53:17  <planetmaker> ST2, the copyright notice / different license in base64 is incompatible with GPL. You cannot build a GPL-licensed stuff with some files not licensed under GPL
22:53:52  <ST2> ok, thank you :)
22:54:09  <ST2> will find a solution
22:54:16  <ST2> crap :(
22:54:23  <ST2> more work
22:54:31  <planetmaker> possibly it's GPL-compatible, though
22:54:50  <LordAro> in fact, that copyright notice seems to have some invalid characters in it
22:54:58  <ST2> (anyway, base64 was the easiest way to save PW's on cfg files)
22:55:09  <planetmaker> hm... I guess it is
22:55:16  <LordAro> "Ren\E9"
22:55:37  <planetmaker> displays fine here, LordAro ;-)
22:56:31  <ST2> btw, I only started making that version to make easy login for our players, anything wrong on it.... I thank you :)
22:57:03  <LordAro> hmm, gedit borks when set to utf8, but displays it fine when set to iso-8859-15 :L
22:57:18  <planetmaker> ST2, I guess the copyright is compatible.
22:57:30  <planetmaker> see src/3rdparty/md5.cpp
22:57:42  <planetmaker> But you might want to place it in the 3rdparty :D
22:57:51  <ST2> well, I read it too... but was a quick one
22:58:12  <ST2> since code I get was on a GPL2 site
22:58:19  <ST2> dnt ask me now
22:58:57  <planetmaker> wow. your really hard-code your DNS numbers instead of names?
22:59:06  <ST2> what scares me most is the Wininet thingy (used on exe and principal diff)
23:00:02  <ST2> well, to make server changes easier... client reads info here:
23:00:57  <ST2> to check what server a player is in.... being worked on ^^
23:01:38  <LordAro> that seems horribly insecure
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23:02:06  <planetmaker> you should talk to TB about global playerID ;-)
23:03:18  <retro|cz> There's a lot of base64 GPL implementations anyway.
23:03:33  <planetmaker> this one is fine
23:03:42  <retro|cz> And also that Base64 license looks similar to zlib license which is 100% compatible with GPL.
23:03:58  <planetmaker> that's the md5 one I mentioned, yes
23:04:31  <planetmaker> only looked strange on first sight
23:05:46  <planetmaker> ST2, the cross-platform thingy which likely will fail on several platforms is the usage of the alt key
23:05:54  <planetmaker> that's why it's not being used in openttd
23:06:01  <planetmaker> it's not free-to-use on all platforms
23:06:30  <planetmaker> it serves the equivalent of the "windows" key
23:06:38  <planetmaker> sometimes
23:07:53  <peter1138> base64 what?
23:08:43  <retro|cz> base64 encode|decode
23:08:58  <ST2> @planetmaker: I'm not a programming guy... that was my attempt to compile on Linux or Mac
23:09:44  <ST2> I only like OpenTTD and make some experiences :D
23:10:23  <planetmaker> hm, and this all runs on an unpatched server?
23:10:36  <ST2> try it
23:10:56  <planetmaker> No, I mean "your server is unpatched"?
23:11:11  <ST2> yes
23:11:47  <ST2> you can test them
23:11:51  <planetmaker> so you do the goals via game script?
23:12:10  <ST2> via xShunter
23:12:28  <planetmaker> ST2, as client I can only test so much. It could be patched or GS and I could not necessarily tell
23:12:58  * peter1138 tries to think what would need base64
23:13:27  <ST2> xShunter is an external software that's listening admin port
23:14:27  <planetmaker> ST2, yes. I know.
23:14:58  <ST2> and using those.... possible to set goals in games
23:14:59  <planetmaker> though I've not exactly seen it. Nor seems the author keen on actually sharing his stuff
23:15:42  <ST2> it's his stuff... and he shares it (we are BTPro and he is n-ice servers)
23:16:01  <planetmaker> well. we share openttd somewhat differently ;-)
23:16:12  <retro|cz> :( it is C# based
23:16:27  <planetmaker> which is what I hope how people in the community share their stuff, too
23:16:32  <ST2> can you query xQR?
23:17:22  <ST2> well, I share mine... but his software is totally different
23:18:21  <ST2> anyway... he's around IRC://
23:18:46  <planetmaker> well, he's in this channel, obviously
23:18:49  <ST2> and usually called as xOR
23:19:00  <ST2> he is
23:19:33  <ST2> but he have some software not shared that works well for OpenTTD servers
23:19:58  <ST2> and he dnt ask cash for it
23:21:02  <planetmaker> did you guys ever think of offering a nightly server? which updates version every day?
23:21:38  <planetmaker> if your server is unpatched, your framework around servers should easily handle that
23:22:03  <ST2> @planetmaker, even if badly, I'm the only guy working on our server version
23:22:25  <ST2> I recognize your work and say thanks
23:22:50  <ST2> really thanks... because I love this game
23:24:45  <ST2> [00:20:51] <@planetmaker> did you guys ever think of offering a nightly server? which updates version every day? <<-- a server to be updated everyday?
23:24:50  <planetmaker> yes
23:25:01  <planetmaker> running the nightly version
23:25:11  <planetmaker> with the latest features
23:25:16  <planetmaker> (and bugs :-P)
23:26:00  <ST2> [00:25:05] <@planetmaker> (and with bug fixes) - (extended by ST2
23:26:59  <ST2> @planetmaker, you'll get my vote for it (we are 4 head admins... I need other approval)
23:27:41  <planetmaker> just wondering. I mean... you have like half a dozen servers, all the same version. Why no development version for those who want to play "bleeding edge" :-)
23:28:12  <retro|cz> planetmaker, good idea
23:28:12  <ST2> we have 4 different server machines now
23:28:12  <planetmaker> you might not want to offer a special client for that every day - that's a hell of a work.
23:28:26  <planetmaker> But you could run different GS or scenarios there
23:28:31  <planetmaker> Or offer a cargodist game
23:28:41  <planetmaker> or/and :D
23:28:44  <retro|cz> cargodist is in trunk?
23:28:48  <planetmaker> yes
23:29:11  <ST2> @planetmaker, we can do that (and I'll force others to agree)
23:29:26  <planetmaker> lol :-) nice
23:29:39  <ST2> but if you can look at our OS_Crossover.diff
23:30:09  <ST2> and compile a linux version?!
23:30:13  <planetmaker> you don't want to know at how many things I *should* look at :D
23:30:17  <ST2> fair trade?
23:30:32  <planetmaker> one is for instance looking at completing the DevZone's compile farm
23:30:49  <^Spike^> just.....? ;)
23:30:50  <planetmaker> a linux version I compile won't help most of the linux users
23:30:59  <planetmaker> ^Spike^, "for instance"
23:31:08  <^Spike^> :D
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23:31:13  <ST2> well, I tried... but it's a hacked version (the rev.... the damn rev ^^)
23:31:27  <planetmaker> yes... :-)
23:31:47  <^Spike^> you know i was kidding pm :)
23:31:53  <planetmaker> I do :-)
23:32:09  <planetmaker> (was missing :-P )
23:32:46  * ^Spike^ has a list just as big :)
23:33:12  * planetmaker remembers a looooong list on some etherpad
23:33:29  <^Spike^> :D
23:34:11  <planetmaker> and there's some patches I want to review on FS. And... a patch queue wrt grid handling to ... get an idea on how to finish
23:34:20  <planetmaker> and then it's 2014, I fear
23:34:29  <planetmaker> at least
23:35:21  <planetmaker> ST2, that said, I can't easily compile universally usable osx or linux binaries either. I don't have all those setups needed
23:35:46  <^Spike^> ottdc will get a boost if we do what i said tomorrow :)
23:35:59  <ST2> @planetmaker, I was checking the things to make a server as you want
23:36:11  <ST2> and it's possible
23:36:24  <planetmaker> :-) iff the schroot works on jenkins.o.o... then I might install schroots for several linuxe
23:36:35  <ST2> my problem is with Universal linux builds
23:36:42  <planetmaker> yes, mine, too :-)
23:36:48  <planetmaker> there's no such thing
23:36:59  <planetmaker> easily at least
23:37:07  <^Spike^> sounds like someone wants to make jenkins do more :)
23:37:26  <planetmaker> first things first. But if there's one schroot. Then there can be more :D
23:37:42  <planetmaker> first a wheezy_x86_64
23:37:49  <planetmaker> with all newgrf build stuff
23:37:57  <planetmaker> and ai bundling
23:38:27  <planetmaker> then extension of it to wheezy_64bit bundles
23:38:37  <planetmaker> and then, maybe other distros :-)
23:38:41  <planetmaker> in other schroots
23:38:45  <planetmaker> or so my thinking currently
23:39:00  <^Spike^> :)
23:39:13  <^Spike^> or just get another container :)
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23:39:29  <planetmaker> yes, or that :D
23:39:32  <^Spike^> we can make some jenkins slaves in a closed ip range
23:39:58  <Djohaal> ook
23:40:14  <Djohaal> so I just saved a giant screenshot of a 1024x1024 map
23:40:18  <Djohaal> now to find a program that can open that
23:40:23  <^Spike^> glhf :)
23:40:28  <planetmaker> ^ :-)
23:40:31  <planetmaker> (gimp can)
23:40:42  <Djohaal> something more lightweight than gimp?
23:40:43  <planetmaker> your computer might not handle it graciously, though
23:40:49  <Djohaal> I tried irfanview. It crashed and burn terribly
23:41:01  <Djohaal> I'm on a win64 machine that I use for 3d rendering, so I assume it should handle
23:41:09  <planetmaker> probably then
23:41:52  <planetmaker> but then I don't see how you don't want to open gimp ;-)
23:42:11  <gynter> Djohaal: vim
23:42:16  <planetmaker> lol
23:42:23  <gynter> quite lightweight for all filetypes
23:43:01  <planetmaker> well, my gnome image viewer has no issues there either ;-)
23:43:09  <Djohaal> welp I'm trying to open in in photsohop x64 (definetly not lightweight) but it is suffering
23:43:20  <ST2> @planetmaker, my opinion on PM...
23:43:22  <gynter> use firefox :P
23:43:59  <ST2> that's almost a sure.... but we'll talk tomorrow
23:44:16  <ST2> anyway.... thanks in advance :)
23:44:24  <planetmaker> for what? :-)
23:44:37  <ST2> brb
23:44:43  *** ST2 is now known as xT2
23:45:29  <planetmaker> Djohaal, photoshop is not known to be ressource-friendly ;-)
23:45:30  <Djohaal> yeah I heard about teh gnoom viwer
23:45:51  <Djohaal> but I'm on windows so no gnom for me
23:46:48  <planetmaker> imageJ
23:47:00  <planetmaker> java, cross-platform
23:47:11  <planetmaker> top-notch image processing / scripting
23:52:16  *** gelignite [] has quit [Quit:]
23:52:33  <planetmaker> good night :-)

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