Log for #openttd on 18th September 2013:
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05:50:42  <matkum> good morning, faboulous people
05:51:14  <matkum> as a rookie with openttd, I have a question
05:52:49  <matkum> so, if a factory produces 100 units of goods, how many carts should I purchase for transporting goods so it would be optimized
05:53:02  <matkum> 50%, 70%, 20% of the total capacity?
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05:53:07  <Supercheese> that depends on many factors
05:53:17  <Supercheese> size of wagons, station cargo rating
05:53:24  <Supercheese> wagon loading speed
05:53:36  <V453000> doesnt matter on anything, just use as many trains as you need, regardless their size
05:54:08  <Supercheese> generally, try to have one train loading all the time, and then if you can manage to get things such that once the loading train gets a full load, another empty train comes immediately to take its place
05:54:14  <matkum> so it does not matter that if I transport the whole 100 units per time
05:54:17  <Supercheese> that's the "best"
05:54:37  <Supercheese> but of course things are rarely, if ever, that steady-state
05:55:05  <matkum> okay. I will try that. thanks guys
05:56:13  <V453000> you cant have 100% in long term
05:56:16  <V453000> ~93% is max
05:56:40  <V453000> unless you autorenew your trains every year or so? :d
05:57:20  <Supercheese> or use improve station rating algorithms
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05:57:32  <matkum> oh, is there autorenew feature as well? cool
05:57:55  <V453000> well autorenew just buys the same model just to make it "new"
05:58:11  <V453000> not really useful for anything except increasing station ratings for the first year or two
05:59:38  <AndreasB> Do you have anything useful that can help me not going to work? :pp
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05:59:59  <AndreasB> "Sorry, train broke down, cant come to work today"
06:00:07  <matkum> dog ate homework
06:00:15  <matkum> classic
06:00:23  <AndreasB> -.- somehow I dont think that helps at work
06:06:00  <AndreasB> Does anyone know how I can get better quality stuff in the game? When I zoom in my eyes cry for help
06:06:26  <AndreasB> I tried looking at "how to play with 32 bp" thingie, but that didnt help at all
06:06:31  <matkum> like, hd-material?
06:06:39  <AndreasB> like hd-textures
06:07:16  <matkum> ttd in hd, would be cool, indeed
06:07:40  <AndreasB> doesnt have to be hd, just better than what it is now
06:07:57  <AndreasB> which I think is 8bps
06:08:13  <AndreasB> grainy as .. toast
06:16:01  <maddy_> AndreasB: maybe something is wrong with your eyes? I thought openttd has pretty good looking graphics :)
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06:27:41  <AndreasB> o.O
06:28:01  <AndreasB> So you claim zooming all the way in gives -good- graphics?
06:28:30  <matkum> AndreasB: i tried zooming. it looks grainy and I agree with you that the graphics should be more detailed
06:28:55  <maddy_> no, actually, I just don't use those extra zoom-in levels at all, I play at the 'default' zoom where things still look good
06:29:06  <AndreasB> lol
06:29:22  <V453000> not like the extra zoom levels are particularly useful
06:29:45  <maddy_> if you want to zoom in really close, then you should probably use the 32bpp base graphics set
06:29:56  <AndreasB> I tried
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06:29:57  <AndreasB> :(
06:30:20  <Supercheese> Have you downloaded zBase?
06:30:28  <AndreasB> anyways, off to work
06:30:38  <AndreasB> zbase wasnt up for download
06:30:40  <AndreasB> link i s broken
06:30:45  <Supercheese> In the game
06:30:49  <Supercheese> Content Download -> zBase
06:31:08  <Supercheese> Check Online Content, rather
06:31:22  <Supercheese> sort by name -> bottom of list
06:33:46  <AndreasB> dang that dl is slow
06:33:54  <AndreasB> like 1-2 MB/s
06:34:02  <Supercheese> hah, slow?
06:34:06  <AndreasB> yes
06:34:18  <Supercheese> 2 Megabytes per second is fast in my book
06:34:28  <AndreasB> I downloaded BF3 in origin at 63 MB/s
06:34:33  <Supercheese> good lord
06:34:38  <Supercheese> what connection do you have?
06:34:42  <AndreasB> 1000mbit fiber
06:34:48  <Supercheese> @__@
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06:36:10  <AndreasB> NOW THATS different!
06:36:32  <AndreasB>
06:36:36  <AndreasB> slow now :|
06:36:42  <AndreasB> anyways, bbl, work time :D
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06:43:02  <Supercheese>
06:43:06  * Supercheese cries.
06:46:11  <__ln__> better than what i have
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07:26:44  <Supercheese> 'night
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08:15:46  <dihedral> greetings
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08:22:41  <planetmaker> o/
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09:24:38  <AndreasB> __ln__: What do you have?
09:25:56  <__ln__> around 16 / 0.8
09:27:58  <AndreasB> o.O
09:27:59  <AndreasB> :(
09:36:33  <AndreasB> thats just sad
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10:00:39  <peter1138> Oh for god's sake...
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10:03:53  <LordAro> ?
10:05:16  <peter1138> Excess packaging.
10:14:19  <LordAro> indeed
10:15:40  <peter1138> Now... should I get an AeroPress?
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10:46:48  <oskari89>
10:47:07  <oskari89> Someone has copied some shapes from Aston Martini in that case
10:47:32  <oskari89> *Aston Martin :P
10:51:19  <LordAro> er, yes
10:51:56  <LordAro> also ford:
10:52:19  <LordAro> i think aston martin needs to find themselves some lawyers
11:06:12  <peter1138> One black car looks similar to another black car? Okay.
11:07:01  <LordAro> the grill, specifically
11:08:45  <peter1138> Yeah, looks similar to a Mini.
11:28:54  <AndreasB> nana....naaaiii (Watching videos of Niall Horan is bad.. )
11:33:35  <maddy_> AndreasB: I'll take your word for it
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11:56:43  <MNIM> hah
11:56:55  <MNIM> I was wondering, why is that aston martin wearing a ford badge?
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12:08:27  <AndreasB> maddy_: I keep going around saying "nana....Naaiii"
12:08:46  <AndreasB> And other strange sounds.. Life would be boring without strange sounds
12:14:14  <LordAro> MNIM: someone understands! :p
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12:21:16  <maddy_> AndreasB: yes, that is enough information for me about that subject, so I'll have to take your word for it, was my point
12:21:22  <AndreasB> Ah :D
12:21:29  <AndreasB> You dont like One Direction?
12:21:49  <maddy_> I mean, I don't know who he or she is, and don't want to know based on what I've heard so far, so I don't want to google it up
12:23:08  <maddy_> because I tend to have a bad habit of googling everything up that I haven't heard about
12:23:36  <AndreasB> o.O But Niall Horan is hot :D :P
12:23:42  <AndreasB> Worth googling.
12:24:21  <peter1138> Nah, he looks like a little boy.
12:24:42  <LordAro> AndreasB: just wondering, how old are you?
12:24:53  <AndreasB> 27
12:25:08  <__ln__> years or months?
12:25:11  <AndreasB> HAHA years
12:25:13  <LordAro> ^^
12:25:21  <AndreasB> Well, at least on paper
12:25:42  <AndreasB> peter1138: You must be looking at an old picture
12:26:14  <peter1138> Whatever appeared on Google images.
12:26:21  <AndreasB>
12:26:43  <LordAro> i am NOT having that link in my history
12:26:47  <peter1138> Yup, little boy.
12:26:51  <AndreasB> Look 20 to me
12:26:57  <peter1138> Exactlky.
12:27:00  <AndreasB> LordAro: Haha
12:27:13  <maddy_> still not looking it up :) and not clicking on that link
12:27:17  <AndreasB> peter1138: Whats wrong with 20yo's?`
12:27:24  <peter1138> One, I'm 35.
12:27:35  <AndreasB> Im still w aiting for a good reason
12:27:53  <peter1138> Two, I'm not really into men.
12:28:15  <V453000> looks like 20 yo faggot or 13 yo boyie
12:28:21  <V453000> peter1138 is right
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12:28:29  <AndreasB> peter1138: Thats a good point
12:28:41  <AndreasB> But even as a straight man, you have to admit that hes above average
12:28:54  <V453000> 4% is above average
12:29:02  <AndreasB> Niall is above average
12:29:09  <AndreasB> [14:28:23] <V453000> looks like 20 yo faggot
12:29:10  <AndreasB> I wish
12:29:19  <V453000> I dont
12:29:35  <AndreasB> Why? Do you care what sexual orientation other people have?
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12:30:11  <LordAro> AndreasB: now i'm confused. what gender are you?
12:30:20  <peter1138> AndreasB, well, homophobic men always seem to think a homosexual man is going to want to rape them... stupid.
12:30:29  <DanMacK> Hey all
12:30:45  <LordAro> run away while you still can DanMacK :)
12:30:59  <peter1138> Why? The GPL argument stopped hours ago.
12:31:08  <DanMacK> lmao yeah...
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12:31:21  <DanMacK> heh, I was there for a bit of that
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12:31:50  <peter1138> LordAro, Andreas is a male name, so...
12:31:50  <V453000> I dont understand licenses for shit after yesterday
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12:32:24  <DanMacK> It's confusing on the best day
12:32:27  <V453000> everybody is what they want on the internet, sac is probably male too
12:32:27  <juzza1> me neither
12:32:47  <peter1138> Most people are just douches.
12:32:53  <V453000> point
12:33:04  <LordAro> am i? :3
12:33:35  <peter1138> :)
12:35:19  <peter1138> Not that I'm aware of, yet :p
12:36:52  <LordAro> yayz :)
12:37:06  * LordAro feels loved ^^
12:37:08  <LordAro> :P
12:39:42  <maddy_> if you have to ask if you're a douche or not, doesn't that make you dangerously close to being one?
12:43:30  <AndreasB> [14:30:28] <@peter1138> AndreasB, well, homophobic men always seem to think a homosexual man is going to want to rape them... stupid.
12:43:37  <AndreasB> If he looks like Niall he better run :D
12:43:57  <AndreasB> And yes, Andreas is a boys name
12:44:13  <maddy_> AndreasB: so you're gay or bi then? and wanted to share that with us?
12:44:13  <AndreasB> My name is NOT Andrea :P
12:44:19  <AndreasB> I'm myself :D
12:44:28  <AndreasB> I'm me, are you you?
12:44:33  <maddy_> I hope so :)
12:44:36  <AndreasB> Me too
12:44:50  <AndreasB> Why do I have to put myself in a .. "box" ?
12:45:07  <AndreasB> If the question is "Can you find a boy attractive" then the answer is yes
12:45:37  <AndreasB> The problem with English language is that you only have one word for bisexual
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12:45:47  <AndreasB> while we in Norwegian (According to me atleast) have two.
12:46:01  <AndreasB> One to define who you can fall in love with, and one to define the sexual part
12:46:26  <maddy_> people in general like to categorize things, including other people...put them in neatly defined boxes with neat little labels
12:46:39  <AndreasB> And in my opinion sexuality is more complicated than "yes/no"
12:47:00  <AndreasB> Some people tend to get mad at me when I can say that something is gay
12:47:04  * roboboy goes to have a look at this GPL arguement
12:47:13  <AndreasB> Boys watching my little pony for example is pretty gay
12:47:27  <AndreasB> That doesnt mean that I am saying that you have to watch it if one is gay
12:47:43  <AndreasB> But, this has nothing to do with openttd, so imma shut up now
12:48:21  <maddy_> you sure? could be extremely important for the next openttd release..
12:48:25  <AndreasB> haha
12:48:31  <AndreasB> I doubt that
12:49:14  <AndreasB> I find openttd confusing
12:49:20  <AndreasB> Whenever I start a game I have no idea what to do
12:50:15  <AndreasB> Can a train "line" be too long? Is there an optimal length for length->Payment ratio?
12:51:23  <blathijs> roboboy: Rumour goes you occasionally play with the DOS build of OpenTTD, is that true?
12:51:26  <juzza1> depends on the newgrf (answer is no)
12:51:27  <planetmaker> yes. yes. check the payment graphs. And figure it out
12:51:39  <AndreasB> payment graphs?
12:51:42  <juzza1> per-newgrf, maybe
12:51:58  <roboboy> I do ocasionaly. I even wrote the article on the Wiki about setting it up.
12:52:02  <planetmaker> yes, payment graphcs.
12:52:03  <blathijs> roboboy: If so, could you check to see if things still work with this patch?
12:52:13  <AndreasB> looking
12:52:34  <peter1138> I'm not too fussed about labels, it's when labels are used to persecute...
12:52:39  <AndreasB> is it days * rate ?
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12:52:55  <peter1138> (Damn that V453000 throwing around that f-word)
12:53:03  <planetmaker>
12:53:10  <AndreasB> thanks
12:53:28  <peter1138> Also damn my internet connection for being so laggy right now :S
12:53:34  <blathijs> roboboy: (you might need a git checkout and "git am" to apply that patch, since it contains a number of renamed files that a regular patch probably won't pick up)
12:54:22  <roboboy> well I never got DOS compilation working. I think the build I had was buit by Rubidium
12:54:39  <blathijs> roboboy: Ah, right. Never mind, then :_)
12:54:43  <blathijs> s/_/-/
12:55:45  <roboboy> Iv'e book marked it incase I do get it  working
12:56:35  <blathijs> roboboy: I'll probably commit that today or tomorrow anyway :-)
12:57:16  <roboboy> ok. If someone wants to build it for me, then I will get my DOS machine running again.
12:58:40  <roboboy> I think FreeDOS comes with all the extras I mentioned on the wiki anyway
12:59:56  <roboboy> I should set it up regardless to test TTDPatch 2.5's nearly final build before it is released as a Stable :P
13:01:57  <Eddi|zuHause> wait... TTDPatch stable? :p
13:05:43  <V453000> peter1138: FUCK what?
13:06:26  <peter1138> Not that one.
13:07:02  <roboboy> 99% of known bugs are fixed in the 2.5 branch of TTDPatch and patchman has agreed to release it as a stable when the last bug is fixed.
13:07:11  <V453000> f-word = realism?
13:07:46  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000 arguing for "realism" would be a first :p
13:10:26  <blathijs> roboboy: Quick, submit more bugs! ;-P
13:10:56  <roboboy> there is always 2.6 for that
13:11:01  <peter1138> Patchman's alive?
13:11:07  <AndreasB> TTDPatch?
13:11:15  <AndreasB> why not just incorporate it into openttd?
13:11:48  <roboboy> yeah, he is alive if only by email once in a while
13:12:47  <roboboy> because I want to play TTD and not OpenTTD, OpenTTD no longer feels like TTD in my opinion while TTDPatch still does and I want to play TTD
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13:14:12  <DanMacK> OpenTTD in my opinion is more like TTD2 at this point
13:14:25  <AndreasB> is..
13:14:34  <AndreasB> TTDPatch something for TTD or for openttd also?
13:14:40  <DanMacK> only TTD
13:14:43  <AndreasB> ah
13:14:46  <AndreasB> then I get it
13:14:48  <DanMacK> TTDP is pre-OTTD
13:14:59  <AndreasB> ahh
13:15:19  <roboboy> We may not have NewGRF's without it
13:15:21  <juzza1> TTDP is what started this madness
13:15:27  <DanMacK> heh, yeah
13:15:50  <roboboy> I suspect OpenTTD would have gone a different route that TTDP couldn't take
13:16:40  <roboboy> well I should go to bed
13:16:41  <AndreasB> how come openttd doesnt break any copyright rules?
13:16:45  <DanMacK> it did
13:16:49  <AndreasB> Isnt it basicly the same thing?
13:17:03  <DanMacK> oh shit...  lol  Close that can of worms
13:17:16  <roboboy> long story short no one realy knows if it did or didn't
13:17:42  <DanMacK> it might in some areas, not in others
13:18:27  <AndreasB> But does it use any TTD code? o.O
13:18:33  <roboboy> the original work was done behind closed doors and then made Open Source once it ran. It suddenly appeared out of nowhere in the TT-Forums admin's inbox one day
13:18:45  <AndreasB> lol
13:18:50  <roboboy> that's my understanding of how it happened
13:19:18  <roboboy> DanMacK, probably knows more as he was arround this community before I found it
13:20:58  <roboboy> gnight peoples
13:22:11  <AndreasB> whaa?
13:22:12  <AndreasB> gnight?
13:22:16  <AndreasB> its 3pm here
13:22:39  <DanMacK> heh, Ive been here awhile for sure
13:22:46  <planetmaker> from my understanding, what the original author did was legal at least in the place he did it
13:23:05  <DanMacK> He decoded it and rewrote it in C AFAIK
13:23:26  <planetmaker> people tend to forget that legislation differs between countries
13:24:02  <planetmaker> and that legislation changed quite a bit, too
13:29:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think anybody here actually checked swedish law...
13:29:29  <Eddi|zuHause> basically, we all take his word for it
13:29:42  <Eddi|zuHause> and so far nobody has sued, so no court has told otherwise
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13:41:02  <AndreasB> OpenTTD is swedish ? :D
13:41:27  <AndreasB> Weird how most players are either polish or russian :S
13:43:22  <planetmaker> openttd is neither Swedish nor Russian nor Polish.
13:43:52  <planetmaker> nor would I believe that "most players" are Russian or Polish (though both countries have strong communities)
13:44:08  <AndreasB> Most players I see are polish or russian
13:44:15  <AndreasB> And I see ~0 scandinavian players
13:44:28  <AndreasB> How does the player list work? Are there a lot of servers not listed?
13:44:36  <AndreasB> server list*
13:44:42  <planetmaker> that's different. I see scandinavian people daily here
13:44:52  <AndreasB> in-game?
13:45:14  <planetmaker> sometimes. I play the meta game in this channel ;-)
13:45:18  <planetmaker> mostly
13:45:20  <AndreasB> hah
13:46:15  <planetmaker> and at the last two OpenTTD meetings we had more than 10% Scandinavians. But 0% Russians and Polish participants ;-)
13:46:36  <AndreasB> hmm
13:47:15  <planetmaker> and it's hard to judge the 10000s of players who never show up anywhere but just play :-)
13:47:55  <AndreasB> Those are wannabes
13:47:59  <AndreasB> real players go multiplayer
13:48:01  <planetmaker>
13:48:14  <AndreasB> oh
13:48:16  <AndreasB> 2% russian lol
13:48:30  <AndreasB> I would count as unresolved :D
13:48:42  <AndreasB> Does it check based on reverse host?
13:48:46  <AndreasB> Or IP whois block?
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13:49:32  <Xaroth|Work> what's even more disturbing
13:49:43  <AndreasB> hm?
13:49:44  <planetmaker> I'd say you'd count as "Norwegian"
13:49:45  <Xaroth|Work> 0.31% of visitors searched to get to the site
13:50:05  <AndreasB> AndreasB is andreas@
13:50:07  <AndreasB> really?
13:50:09  <AndreasB> sure bout that?
13:50:13  <AndreasB> I count as .25
13:50:35  <Xaroth|Work> an ip is not a TLD
13:51:26  <Xaroth|Work> but that range's rdns is covered by
13:51:30  <Xaroth|Work> so i agree with planetmaker
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13:54:24  <LordAro> bash wizards! a problem for you:
13:55:13  <Xaroth|Work> LordAro: regexp on \d.\d(optional .\d)
13:55:15  <Xaroth|Work> ?
13:55:54  <LordAro> you're going to have to be more explicit than that :p (i'm not very good at bash/regex)
13:56:11  <SpComb> grep --only-matching
13:56:41  <Xaroth|Work> (\d\.\d(\.\d)?)
13:57:14  <Xaroth|Work> wait, that doesn't reeaally work
13:57:14  <SpComb> you need some + in there
13:57:23  <Xaroth|Work> (\d+\.\d+(\.\d+)?)
13:57:25  <Xaroth|Work> aye
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13:57:47  <AndreasB> Xaroth: Never said it was.
13:57:59  <Xaroth|Work> will match any <digit(s)>.<digit(s)>[.<digit(s)>]
13:58:05  <Xaroth|Work> AndreasB: 15:50 < AndreasB> I count as .25
13:58:18  <Xaroth|Work> that makes the assumption that everything after the @ is a hostname
13:58:21  <Xaroth|Work> which is false
13:58:24  <AndreasB> *facepalm*
13:58:26  <LordAro> Xaroth|Work: umm, you sure? i'm getting no output
13:58:31  <AndreasB> It was an joke
13:58:36  <AndreasB> I dont use rdns
13:58:46  <AndreasB> GeoIP should never be done based on rnds
13:58:58  <Xaroth|Work> no, but people do it by rdns ;)
13:59:14  <AndreasB> bcountry:        NO
13:59:25  <AndreasB> as described in the IP block
13:59:28  <AndreasB> whois info
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14:00:34  <Xaroth|Work> LordAro: not sure how to do that with grep
14:00:40  <LordAro> /o Zuu
14:00:57  <LordAro> Xaroth|Work: what would you use then? ;p
14:01:21  <Zuu> hello
14:01:48  <planetmaker> hail thee, fellow meta player from Scandinavia ;-)
14:02:08  <Zuu> :-)
14:03:04  <planetmaker> oh, you don't have a "bahnhof" address anymore :D
14:03:24  <Zuu> not for a while
14:04:09  <planetmaker> :-)
14:04:16  <Zuu> I may use them as ISP again, but where I am at the moment they aren't available.
14:04:17  <planetmaker> not like I keep track of it
14:04:37  <planetmaker> but we had this topic about hostnames just now :-)
14:04:42  <Zuu> oh
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14:12:34  <LordAro> "grep --only-matching '[0-9]\+\.[0-9]\+\(\.[0-9]\+\)\?'" <-- does that seem like an excessive number of backslashes to anyone else?
14:13:11  <planetmaker> not to me
14:13:37  <Xaroth|Work> needs more backslashes tbh
14:13:43  <Xaroth|Work> silly grep :|
14:14:02  <Xaroth|Work> but shouldn't \d work better than [0-9] ?
14:14:31  <Xaroth|Work> \d\+\.\d\+\(\.\d\+\)\?
14:14:38  <Xaroth|Work> (moar backslashes \o/ )
14:15:51  <LordAro> apparently not
14:16:02  <LordAro> at least, not with the default regex mode
14:16:12  <LordAro> (and no, i can't be bothered to test the others :P )
14:19:02  <Xaroth|Work> silly regexp
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14:20:53  <Eddi|zuHause> tried "grep -E"?
14:21:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i always get confused which regexp parts need escaping and which don't...
14:22:12  <LordAro> i think i did...
14:22:13  <LordAro> :L
14:22:19  * Zuu too as it differs from parser to parser
14:22:33  <Eddi|zuHause> we should standardize regexp to end the confusion! :p
14:22:59  <Zuu> yeah that would be good :-)
14:23:36  <LordAro> :p
14:23:54  <SpComb> I can never get vim's regexps right on the first try
14:26:06  <retro|cz> SpComb, where is problem?
14:26:32  <SpComb> it has different escaping rules for regexp symbols than any other regexp engine I've ever used
14:27:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember thinking that vim's escaping rules were "better", but i'm not quite sure
14:27:44  <SpComb> it wants you to escape everything, except some things
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14:31:02  <SpComb> (and then it also has four different modes for escaping more or fewer things)
14:32:16  <Zuu> It depends on how you use it. If you use it mostly as a plain text search, then it is better to reverse escaping so that you need to write eg. \[0-9\] to make a class. But if you use the classes more, then a more traditional escaping is better.
14:33:03  <Zuu> I guess that is why some symbols in vim needs a \ to become a magic symbol.
14:33:05  <SpComb> the default is * but \+. And [...] but \(...\)
14:36:52  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, now i remember what was "better" with vim: you could do multi-line matching
14:38:43  <LordAro> Zuu:
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14:46:25  <Zuu> LordAro: Thanks
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15:06:10  <peter1138> Hmm, should I use object locking or exceptions?
15:07:00  <peter1138> if (dict.ContainsKey(foo)) return dict[foo];
15:07:27  <peter1138> dict could've been changed
15:09:44  <Eddi|zuHause> then exceptions might help you
15:10:12  <Eddi|zuHause> try: return dict[foo] except Whatever: blah
15:10:23  <peter1138> yeah
15:10:23  <peter1138> or
15:10:42  <peter1138> lock (padlock) if (dict.ContainsKey(foo)) return dict[foo];
15:10:59  <peter1138> and make sure padlock is locked if dict changes
15:11:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i generally try to avoid evaluating the same thing twice
15:11:42  <peter1138> skip the containskey bit
15:12:22  <peter1138> someone is bound to complain that that is using exceptions as flow control which is bad and wrong
15:13:23  <Eddi|zuHause> then give the reason "do not evaluate dict twice, because it might change"
15:14:09  <Eddi|zuHause> but if you worry about dict changing, who says that dict[foo] is atomic?
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15:16:05  <peter1138> maybe i should use exceptions AND the lock, heh
15:17:18  <TWerkhoven> python?
15:19:45  <TWerkhoven> if so, why not use dict.get(foo), itll return None if key does not exist
15:20:07  <peter1138> no
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15:28:22  <Eddi|zuHause> TWerkhoven: but what if dict[foo] is None?
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15:28:40  <Eddi|zuHause> and it still doesn't say anwhere that .get() is atomic either
15:30:04  <DanMacK> Anyone use Tortoise hg?
15:30:26  <juzza1> yes
15:30:58  <DanMacK> was going to ask how to purge pending changes instead of pushing them
15:31:45  <Eddi|zuHause> "France forbids 'beauty contests' for people under the age of 16"
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15:33:25  <planetmaker> DanMacK, you want to loose that work. Or just remove the commits?
15:33:49  <juzza1> I ran into that once, solved by deleting local repo and pulling remote, but i guess there must be a better way
15:33:55  <oskari89> There is
15:34:01  <oskari89> Just a minute
15:34:17  <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: you can create an arbitrary empty object
15:34:20  <Xaroth|Work> and use .get(foo, empty)
15:34:25  <Xaroth|Work> and compare the result to empty :)
15:34:50  <oskari89> Right click the one changeset you want to get rid of (not yet pushed)
15:35:11  <oskari89> Modify history at the bottom -> Strip
15:35:38  <oskari89> And then click strip :)
15:35:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: and how is that any shorter/clearer/more elegant/safer/whatever than catching a KeyError exception?
15:35:54  <blathijs> peter1138: Doing dict[foo] and catch an exception is more pythonic
15:36:03  <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: exceptions are expensive
15:36:14  <Xaroth|Work> blathijs: that's debatable
15:36:25  <oskari89> DanMacK: Did that work? :)
15:37:23  <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: but how are you hiding "empty" in a way that it is guaranteed to never be used outside this function?
15:38:54  <blathijs> Xaroth|Work: It's commonly referred to as "Easier to ask forgiveness than permission" (EAFP) and AFAIK it's considered the more sane programming style in python
15:39:11  <blathijs> THat said, I can't find it in a PEP or anything really authorative
15:39:58  <blathijs> Xaroth|Work: Are exeptions so expensive in python? Also, doing the lookup twice (in the common case where the key _is_ in the dict) als seems expensive to me
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15:46:10  <DanMacK> Yeah :D
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15:55:54  <peter1138> Yeah this isn't python, it's C#
15:56:04  <peter1138> And everything I read says to not use the exception method :S
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16:01:39  <blathijs> peter1138: Ah, the casing of ContainsKey should have tipped me off there :-)
16:06:08  <peter1138> I wonder if that's just a generic crap about exceptions though...
16:06:33  <peter1138> In 99.999% of cases the key will exist, so the exception won't be triggered.
16:06:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i think that's just generic crap about exceptions
16:06:53  <blathijs> optimizing for the common case seems the better strategy to me
16:07:02  <peter1138> there is a very very minor chance of the dict changing between the check and the lookup
16:07:13  <peter1138> the usual wisdom is to insert a lock
16:07:27  <peter1138> but what about the performance penalty of doing a lock that 99.99% of the time is not needed...
16:09:34  <peter1138>
16:09:34  <peter1138> Hah
16:09:54  <peter1138> try-catch is faster when most lookups are successful
16:10:43  <peter1138> (the particular example there is bogus)
16:10:58  <blathijs> peter1138: I do think that holds for most locks, that they're not needed 99.99% of the time :-)
16:11:05  <peter1138> True
16:11:35  <blathijs> But it also depends if the dict itself makes any kind of guarantees about thread-safety
16:12:46  <blathijs> I can imagine implementations of a dict which would crash if you insert something into the dict halfway a lookup
16:13:50  <peter1138> Point
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16:31:01  <alluke> time goes so fast in normal ottd
16:31:09  <alluke> must cheat it back a bit
16:38:21  <Eddi|zuHause> write a daylength patch
16:41:54  <peter1138> :D
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17:05:29  <peter1138> Oh well, I decided on a simpler solution. The dict is never actually updated, only replaced. So I can just take a local copy of it.
17:06:48  <peter1138> Now, unless a = b is not atomic, it shouldn't need locking ever.
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17:21:23  <Rubidium> in a highly pipelined CPU, what is atomic?
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17:27:08  <retro|cz> peter1138, Do you have plan to rewrite OTTD into C#?
17:27:32  <glx> don't be silly
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17:29:31  <Rubidium> it's easy to write "OTTD" in C# ;)
17:30:13  <LordAro> Console.Writeline("OTTD"); :D
17:30:16  <Rubidium> public class OTTD { publis static void Main { System.Console.WriteLine("OTTD"); } }
17:30:23  <LordAro> damn
17:30:24  <LordAro> :p
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17:30:45  <LordAro> and i forgot the capital 'L'
17:32:04  * Rubidium guestimates that's in the order of magnitude of 1% of all C# code I've ever written ;)
17:32:39  <LordAro> probably about 0.1% for me :)
17:32:49  <LordAro> and you still managed to do it better :p
17:33:02  <LordAro> wait, no, 0.01%
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17:34:11  <peter1138> retro|cz, no.
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17:34:20  <retro|cz> peter1138, sad story :/
17:34:30  <LordAro> bash: "`...`" or "$(...)" ? i've read that "`...`" is deprecated
17:35:28  <retro|cz> damn Rubidium you're C# superstar
17:35:32  <retro|cz> publis?
17:35:40  <retro|cz> It should be pubic I think.
17:35:58  <retro|cz> or pubis?
17:41:40  <Eddi|zuHause> does clicking on "create project" in msvc count as "writing code"?
17:42:42  <Pinkbeast> It's meta-writing code
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17:56:46  <LordAro> bash: "`...`" or "$(...)" ? i've read that "`...`" is deprecated
17:58:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i usually use $() as it's clearer
17:59:40  <LordAro> that's what i was thinking
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18:04:26  <LordAro> say, this is pretty neat:
18:10:57  <peter1138> retro|cz, why sad? It would only make it slower...
18:13:46  <LordAro> peter1138: but you'd have a patch for making it faster, right?
18:14:35  <Eddi|zuHause> but it would lie there for years not being committed
18:14:51  <retro|cz> no, it will be paid patch in Windows Store
18:15:59  <LordAro> ouch
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18:16:30  <Wolf01> hello
18:16:44  <LordAro> /o
18:17:20  <peter1138> Heh, I do all my C#ing on mono...
18:17:37  <LordAro> phew :p
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18:20:56  <Eddi|zuHause> hey, i was young and needed the money...
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18:21:21  <LordAro> something, something, morals, something
18:21:35  <peter1138> Hmm, 2560x1440 monitors...
18:22:03  * LordAro wants
18:22:09  <retro|cz> Eddi|zuHause, so you're former porno actor?
18:22:38  <Eddi|zuHause> ... almost
18:22:43  <peter1138> LordAro, better, 2560x1600. 16:10 ratio :D
18:22:47  <peter1138> Shame it's 30"
18:23:11  <peter1138> £600 +vat :S
18:23:23  <LordAro> :(
18:23:23  <peter1138> or £650 +vat for the 10 bit version, hmm...
18:23:33  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't say '30"' and "porno" within few lines :p
18:23:58  <LordAro> i'll just wait for a 4k screen :)
18:24:13  <peter1138> Why wait?
18:24:31  <Eddi|zuHause> why pay 10k for it?
18:24:33  <peter1138>
18:24:47  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, and another 10k for the GPUs needed...
18:24:49  <Rubidium> 4k is pretty low quality ;)
18:26:02  <LordAro> fine then, and eyefinity setup of 6x4k screens :p
18:26:09  <oskari89> OpenTTD at 2560x1600 sounds fine :D
18:26:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i already paid way enough on my 100€ graphics card
18:26:13  <Rubidium> I already seen 8k in real life over 5 years ago
18:27:13  <Rubidium> or rather, "Super Hi-Vision" as that also boast 22.2 surround sound besides 8K
18:28:01  <LordAro> Rubidium: are you talking about a cinema? :p
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18:28:56  <Rubidium> LordAro: regarding eyefinity
18:29:22  <Rubidium> apparantly it's still quite buggy
18:29:27  <Rubidium> but no, not in the cinema
18:30:11  <Rubidium> it was in a research lab at NHK
18:33:38  <LordAro> ah, NHK, i might have known
18:34:14  <Eddi|zuHause> it would probably be weird to get a screen instead of a projector in a cinema
18:37:13  <LordAro> regarding eyefinity, that seems to be a bug with the driver in general - i experience those problems myself (1x1080p screen, catalyst driver)
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18:50:20  <glx> LordAro: catalyst is the problem ;)
18:51:37  <glx> a driver that needs .net framework (even if it's only for the control center) is not a good thing for me
18:52:29  <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with .net framework?
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18:56:20  <glx> it just slows windows starting, because it needs to launch .net to be able to launch control center
18:57:28  <LordAro> glx: unfortunately, it's the only option for any sort of gaming - the opensource version just isn't up to it (yet)
18:58:13  <Eddi|zuHause> honestly, i have never cared about windows startup time on my systems
18:58:41  <Eddi|zuHause> but on my father's computer it takes like 15 minutes until it's usable
18:58:53  <glx> yeah I know that
18:59:27  <glx> and if you try to do something with it before that time it may hang
19:00:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah
19:00:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i've had that happen a few times
19:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause> and always when i was in a hurry
19:06:20  <Xaroth|Work> glx: the .net requirement is only for the control center; which is loaded after startup, not during
19:07:08  <glx> Xaroth|Work: I know
19:07:35  <glx> and it's loaded at session opening
19:09:11  <Eddi|zuHause> that can probably be disabled
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19:29:31  <LordAro> wait, .net? fairly sure i haven't got that - unless they include it in their linux versions :L
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19:31:58  <retro|cz> glx, you can disable that in msconfig
19:38:12  <Xaroth|Work> LordAro: on linux it's called Mono, most likely
19:42:36  <LordAro> i do have mono, but as far as i can tell, it's not required for the control-center
19:44:11  <NGC3982> Wat
19:44:26  <Xaroth|Work> not on linux, no
19:45:58  <LordAro> well what were you talking about then? :p
19:46:38  <Xaroth|Work> the windows client?
19:46:49  <Xaroth|Work> or at least, glx was :P
19:47:11  <LordAro> you replied to me though :p
19:48:39  <Eddi|zuHause> well, would have been more clear if you said fglrx driver :=)
19:49:03  <Xaroth|Work> LordAro: you mentioned not having .net
19:49:46  <LordAro> "...unless they include it in their linux versions :L" :p
19:54:31  <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
19:54:31  <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 22 hours, 51 minutes, and 32 seconds ago: <andythenorth> have fun with law :)
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20:24:43  <AndreasB> Are transfers paid on transfer?
20:25:01  <AndreasB> If I have a line thats 50 tiles, transfer, then new line 50 tiles, deliver
20:25:06  <AndreasB> is that 100 line cargo?
20:25:10  <AndreasB> tile*
20:27:40  <frosch123> you only get real money for the final delivery
20:28:24  <frosch123> the intermediate yellow income does not affect your bank balance, it's just transfered from the train that picks up the cargo again to the one which brought it
20:28:50  <frosch123> see also
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20:33:06  <frosch123> night
20:33:10  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
20:33:33  <Eddi|zuHause> no, you can't make money buy just shoving back and forth the same passengers
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20:45:27  <AndreasB> Eddi|zuHause: Ehh
20:45:29  <AndreasB> I didnt say that
20:45:41  <AndreasB> A to B, transfer. B to C, deliver
20:47:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, you get paid for A to C, the transfer credit is just so that the A to B vehicle won't have negative income all the time
20:58:30  <AndreasB> aha'
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20:59:15  <juzza1> 4x space or tab?
20:59:16  <Eddi|zuHause> if the B to C vehicle shows negative income, you should reduce the feeder share in the settings
20:59:42  <Eddi|zuHause> juzza1: i use tab, because my editor is weird with switching between languages
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21:00:45  <Eddi|zuHause> also, i keep tab at 8 spaces, otherwise things get really weird with mixing
21:01:58  <juzza1> ok
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21:16:04  <fjb> Moin.
21:21:59  <LordAro> /o
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21:28:00  <LordAro> if anyone's still awake, is there another way to implement a source.list type thing, but without using awk (configure:100) ?
21:29:36  <Rubidium> use any other programming language that's readibly available?
21:29:58  <LordAro> that can easily be used inside a bash script :p
21:32:59  <fjb> You don't have bash everywhere. It is ok if you can do it in plain sh.
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21:34:20  <LordAro> bash/sh w/e
21:34:46  <Eddi|zuHause> abhsw/ehs?
21:35:07  <Eddi|zuHause> abw/e?
21:42:59  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:28:10  <AndreasB> Please
23:28:15  <AndreasB> how do I ignore an player
23:28:18  <AndreasB> so I cant receive PM
23:28:22  <AndreasB> even possible?
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