Log for #openttd on 22nd September 2013:
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01:54:08  <Eddi|zuHause> meybe we should get rid of these hysterical names "DOS palette" and "Windows palette"
01:54:25  <Supercheese> +1
01:54:48  <Eddi|zuHause> suggestions for alternative names?
02:13:18  <planetmaker> openttd and crippled
02:13:38  <planetmaker> (as openttd anyway converts everything to DOS palette)
02:16:13  <Eddi|zuHause> i was aiming for something slightly more neutral... :)
02:16:22  <planetmaker> :-)
02:16:23  <Eddi|zuHause> like "original" and "alternate"
02:17:38  <planetmaker> problem is... renaming that to new 'standard names' will be like
02:18:07  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure of that :)
02:18:13  <planetmaker> I wonder though whether we should disable the 'palette' button when the NewGRF supplies an action14 which defines palette
02:18:30  <Eddi|zuHause> that probably makes sense
02:18:44  <planetmaker> (unless newgrf developer :) )
02:18:55  <Eddi|zuHause> was about to say that :)
02:19:05  <planetmaker> hm... but we haven't read the newgrf in that window... gah
02:19:15  <planetmaker> hm... or we do?
02:19:21  <planetmaker> we likely do
02:22:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure that info is available
02:22:54  <planetmaker> likely
02:22:59  <planetmaker> somehow
02:23:15  <Eddi|zuHause> but do we distinguish between "set by action14" and "guessed by advanced setting"?
02:23:24  <planetmaker> dunno
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02:25:26  <planetmaker> I hope GRFConfig would know
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02:31:56  <planetmaker> should know it... newgrf.cpp:7195 ChangeGRFPalette
02:33:27  <planetmaker> but ... GRF_P_GRF_UNSET is not propagated...
02:34:20  <Eddi|zuHause> that is what i meant
02:47:26  <planetmaker> newgrf_config.cpp:59ff... should be available :-)
02:47:54  <planetmaker> default values of 0 means: no info provided. That can be queried
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02:53:40  <Sarah-Beth> I'm in a Live Adult Video Chat Room Naked -
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02:58:55  <planetmaker> @kban *!*SaraBeth@*!*
02:58:55  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: *!*SaraBeth@*!* is not in #openttd.
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03:11:17  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause,
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07:40:08  <V453000> hmmm, any hints on how could I make a *0.7 expression into a switch block? If I just use X: 50*0.7; then I get this expression cannot be used if I use 0.7 , 0,7 gives "invalid token"
07:40:30  <V453000> *7/10? :D
07:41:46  <V453000> hm that seems to work, lets see which value I get
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07:53:37  <Alberth> hi hi
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07:59:26  <V453000> hi
07:59:37  <V453000> yay x*7/10 works :D
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08:00:45  <Alberth> euhm, ok :)
08:01:10  <andythenorth> o/
08:01:12  <andythenorth> also bye
08:01:16  <Alberth> bye
08:01:19  <andythenorth> chores
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08:01:26  <V453000> is there any more sane way to do -30% ?
08:01:38  <V453000> meh, this thing works, good enough
08:01:40  <V453000> dont bother :D
08:02:03  <Alberth> I think 7/10 is a good solution for -30% :)
08:02:54  <Alberth> although I am always troubled by the fact that (X-30%)+30% is not X
08:03:01  <V453000> :d
08:03:03  <V453000> :)
08:03:10  <V453000> dont need that
08:04:16  <Alberth> I know, but it means there is a mathematical bug in the % concept ;)
08:04:43  <V453000> XD
08:04:50  <V453000> feature
08:04:53  <Alberth> :D
08:05:25  <Rubidium> Alberth: it's just because you write it with the syntactic sugar
08:05:52  <Rubidium> > X * 0.7 * 1.3
08:06:37  <Alberth> >>> 0.7*1.3
08:06:37  <Alberth> 0.9099999999999999  <-- see, not 1.0
08:07:18  <Rubidium> Alberth: without the syntactic sugar it's clearer that it's not going to yield the same
08:08:03  <Alberth> true
08:09:32  <Alberth> it sort-of defeats the idea of relative increasing/decreasing :(
08:11:24  <V453000> nver do math on meth
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08:39:42  <Wolf01> hi hi
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08:49:29  <Alberth> o/
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10:15:05  <andythenorth> 'because I really like bubble land'
10:15:06  <andythenorth> :(
10:16:09  <NGC3982> I had a dream this night about being abled to put go-to orders depending on the state of a signal.
10:20:42  <Alberth> andy, kid didn't want to get out of the bath?
10:35:31  <andythenorth> toyland
10:36:03  * Alberth likes toyland too! \o/
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10:37:11  * V453000 doesnt say anything
10:39:36  <Eddi|zuHause> the opposite of -30% is +40%, obviously :)
10:40:20  <V453000> Eddi is evil I almost went to check it with calculator
10:40:37  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 0.7*1.4
10:40:37  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.98
10:40:44  <Eddi|zuHause> close enough :)
10:41:36  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc sqrt(2)
10:41:36  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 1.41421356237
10:41:42  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc sqrt(2)/2
10:41:42  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.707106781187
10:42:00  <Eddi|zuHause> those are exact opposites :)
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10:42:36  <Alberth> duh, it's the definition of sqrt  :D
10:46:48  <V453000> ._.
10:47:04  <V453000> what have I done with a simple question on train power
10:47:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: well it's not THAT obvious from the definition of sqrt that sqrt(2)/2 = 1/sqrt(2)
10:48:12  <Alberth> fair enough :)
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11:03:13  <frosch123> to continue the topic from last night: i guess renaming the palettes to "original" and "win9x" might work
11:03:23  <frosch123> or even "normal" and "win9x"
11:03:37  <V453000> do the palettes have slugs?
11:04:50  <frosch123> does nuts have charmaelion trains meanwhile?
11:05:03  <frosch123> which try to hide on purr rails by changing their colours?
11:05:41  <V453000> charmaelion? :D
11:05:46  <V453000> you mean chameleon?
11:05:56  <V453000> chamelons are there but they change speed based on length of consist
11:06:11  <frosch123> yeah, chameleon is better. the other one is a pokemon, right?
11:06:18  <V453000> charmeleon is pokemon
11:06:25  <V453000> charmelion is a mix of charmeleon and a lion
11:06:50  <V453000> also, 0.6.0 will have trains which change stat bonuses based on which purr they are on - and obviously also some colour adaptations probably
11:07:02  <V453000> but you totally didnt rea that, top secret :>
11:07:30  <frosch123> you drank too much beer
11:07:38  <frosch123> you already told me that 3 days ago
11:09:55  <V453000> wasnt sure you connected it with your colour changing suggestion :P
11:11:49  <Eddi|zuHause>  <frosch123> or even "normal" and "win9x" <-- but that still won't prevent people from thinking "i play on windows, i must change this"
11:12:25  <frosch123> sure it does. "7" is normal "9x" is old crap
11:12:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and in 5 years when windows 9 comes out? :p
11:12:55  <V453000> XD
11:13:12  <V453000> how about normal / BAAAD
11:13:13  <V453000> ?
11:13:15  <V453000> :P
11:13:32  <frosch123> hmm, maybe ms skips that number for that reason
11:13:57  <Eddi|zuHause> "Windows A" :p
11:14:11  <frosch123> Windows One ?
11:15:18  <V453000> I wouldnt call it windows if possible :D
11:15:26  <Alberth> +1 on that
11:15:27  <V453000> what is the win palette for anyway?
11:15:36  <frosch123> so "normal" and "legacy win9x-compatible"?
11:15:37  <Alberth> V453000: some people use it :(
11:15:53  <V453000> normal / wtf
11:15:58  <frosch123> V453000: for old crap, and old douchbags who use old crap even today
11:15:59  <V453000> or some similar name :)
11:16:16  <V453000> well that doesnt mean it needs to be called win, does it
11:16:23  <Eddi|zuHause> "normal" and "legacy" sound good
11:16:24  <Alberth> frosch123: I like the "legacy" idea
11:16:36  <V453000> I know many new people get confused and want to use "win" because they are on "windows"
11:16:42  <V453000> which doesnt make sense but go ask them
11:17:09  <frosch123> maybe we can obfuscate the windows: "normal (D)", "legacy (W)"
11:17:39  <V453000> normal / hysterical?
11:17:40  <V453000> :P
11:18:12  <Alberth> frosch123: yeah, I was thinking "D palette" and "W palette" but your idea better expresses preference of D :)
11:18:16  <frosch123> V453000: we need a "V" palette, which makes all colours animated
11:18:45  <Eddi|zuHause> there are pills for that :p
11:18:48  <V453000> I only make wetrails animate :(
11:18:49  <V453000> XD
11:18:53  <V453000> lol
11:19:08  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: oh, i did not know V pillls also work that way
11:19:19  <Alberth> lol
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11:19:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entriely sure either, never used any such pills :p
11:20:47  <V453000> frosch123: eat a flash disc with nuts and purr on it
11:20:51  <V453000> might have side effects
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11:29:31  <planetmaker> hello
11:29:48  <planetmaker> frosch123, I though maybe "default" and "legacy"?
11:30:02  <V453000> default sounds good too
11:30:11  <V453000> or default and fault? :D
11:30:18  <planetmaker> lol
11:32:04  <planetmaker> but normal and legacy... yeah, why not
11:34:25  <Alberth> the good and the bad :p
11:35:15  <planetmaker> hm... if we name D and W, we should use 'default (D)' and legacy (W)
11:35:20  <planetmaker> as then d = default :-)
11:35:23  <planetmaker> and w = wrong :P
11:35:48  <V453000> XD best
11:36:00  <Alberth> 'wegacy'   :)
11:36:27  <planetmaker> w is for wimps ;-)
11:36:44  <V453000> I am surprised frosch123 isnt suggesting rainbow palette
11:36:55  <andythenorth> bonsoir
11:37:35  <V453000> hi andythenorth
11:37:43  <V453000> how in the hell does on draw shyps
11:37:47  <V453000> one*
11:37:54  <andythenorth> it takes bloody ages
11:38:03  <andythenorth> ideally one gets DanMacK and Coxx to do it
11:38:08  <V453000> I had a look at some of yours and took some slight inspiration but idk how ._.
11:38:09  <V453000> mhm :D
11:38:10  <andythenorth> ideally one starts from a render
11:38:18  <V453000> render is fakof
11:38:23  <andythenorth> shrug
11:39:15  <planetmaker> kinda, Alberth :-)
11:39:47  <planetmaker> 2nd hunk is kinda independent. it disables 'toggle palette' button when the newgrf defines a palette via action14
11:40:20  <planetmaker> which imho makes sense whether we rename palettes or not :-)
11:40:48  <frosch123> is "c" the right grfconfig in the second hunk?
11:41:26  <frosch123> i.e. the one from the filescanner, or the one from the game/savegame
11:41:53  <frosch123> (though i guess that only makes a difference if newgrf-tools are disabled, and scenario-tools are enabled)
11:42:14  <planetmaker>
11:42:34  <frosch123> planetmaker: STR_CONFIG_SETTING_NEWGRF_DEFAULT_PALETTE_ are missing
11:42:47  <planetmaker> hm?
11:43:03  <frosch123> there are more occurrenes of "dos" and "windows"
11:43:16  <planetmaker> ah, that you mean
11:43:19  <frosch123> anyway, i cannot tell from that code snippet whether it's the right palette
11:43:31  <frosch123> s/palette/grfconfig/
11:43:52  <frosch123> i would just try loading a savegame with newgrf tools disabled and scenario enabled, and see whether you can change the palette
11:44:25  <planetmaker> that's what I did :D
11:44:35  <frosch123> ok :)
11:44:45  <planetmaker> though I'm unsure about my scenario_editor status
11:45:03  <frosch123> well, without it you shouldn't be able to change anything
11:45:13  <frosch123> STR_NEWGRF_ERROR_DOS_OR_WINDOWS <- there is also that one
11:45:26  <frosch123> i guess nothing we can change about that
11:45:33  <frosch123> but i guess noone uses it anyway
11:47:45  <planetmaker> yeah, that probably should stay. And only will trigger for old, umnaintained NewGRFs which try to check palette :-)
11:48:47  <planetmaker> updated patch with string change
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11:50:34  <frosch123> did you upload it somewhere?
11:51:42  <planetmaker>
11:52:34  <planetmaker> 10 minutes ago. Forgot to highlight you :D
11:52:38  <frosch123> so, you didn't :p
11:52:53  <frosch123> no, but you said you updated the patch, so i checked it again
11:53:22  <planetmaker> oh... :D
11:54:12  <planetmaker> well, now
11:54:52  <planetmaker> I'd actually keep the last hunk separate. It's something different IMHO
11:54:59  <frosch123> Default uppercase and legacy lowercase?
11:55:06  <frosch123> i guess both should be uppercase
11:55:11  <planetmaker> yup
11:55:18  <frosch123> sure, last hunk should be different patch
11:55:34  <frosch123> i am unsure whether to trash the translations from all languages
11:55:51  <planetmaker> hm, string rename you mean?
11:56:05  <planetmaker> Might be a good idea actually
11:56:30  <frosch123> no, just "sed '/STR_CONFIG_SETTING_NEWGRF_DEFAULT_PALETTE_[WD]/ D' *.txt"
11:56:31  <planetmaker> or it will linger around for... ages :-)
11:56:52  <planetmaker> hm :-)
11:56:54  <planetmaker> or that
11:57:31  <planetmaker> it would probably trash 5 Polish translation strings. Unless I commit at 20:15h or so :-)
11:57:39  <frosch123> keeping the string ids is fine, since you also keep the GRFP constants
11:58:06  <frosch123> planetmaker: it's unlikely that polish translated just those
11:58:35  <frosch123> wt3 does not drop pending changes on commit if you mean that
11:58:39  <planetmaker> ah, you mean it's fine to touch the lang files? I always though if we commit to them, translations are... ^
11:59:10  <frosch123> wt3 updates just fine. but noone knows what happens if you change a string via svn which is also pending
11:59:26  <frosch123> so, we usually wait when changing lots of strings
12:00:29  <planetmaker> I see
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12:08:01  <planetmaker> so shall I go for the two patches and commit, including string wipe?
12:08:30  <frosch123> yes
12:08:39  <frosch123> you can also put the string wipe in a third commit
12:09:00  <frosch123> if you hunger for the next party :p
12:09:10  <planetmaker> :D
12:10:02  <Eddi|zuHause> anybody as excited about the election as i am? :p
12:11:15  <planetmaker> I was already voting... I'm kinda excited. But bored by the choice
12:11:39  <planetmaker> mutti oder stinkefinger ;-)
12:11:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm considering voting for something i'm completely against, just to spite everybody :p
12:12:18  <planetmaker> how would you spite that way anyone but you?
12:12:35  <planetmaker> vote for something roughly in your direction, but a tiny party
12:12:46  <planetmaker> that way it has a chance to actually make a difference
12:12:54  <planetmaker> and hurt the establishment
12:13:00  <Eddi|zuHause> no, the theory is that everybody does something completely different than what they promised. so if i vote for something where i'm against most of it, they do what i want in the end :p
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12:13:37  <planetmaker> you sold your vote and promised to vote for <X>? :-P
12:14:20  <Eddi|zuHause> the second problem is i just ate and now i'm even more lazy than usual...
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12:14:51  <V453000> PLEASE vote for a party which involves re-invading czech republic
12:14:52  <V453000> ty
12:15:09  <V453000> the mess here needs some redoing
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12:19:21  <planetmaker> V453000, then you want our current chancelor. She knows it all. And buys her will ;-)
12:20:08  <V453000> :D
12:20:11  <Eddi|zuHause> there is nearly no way the current chancellor won't be the next one, that's one of the problems with this election :)
12:20:17  <V453000> y
12:20:20  <V453000> I read that
12:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause> because "the opposition" is no uniform block, so even if the current government doesn't get a majority, the "alternate" government won't get a majority either
12:21:42  <V453000> look, communists will probably win in our election
12:21:46  <V453000> can always be worse? :D
12:21:49  <Eddi|zuHause> and any possible coalition that could come out of that situation will result in a chancellor merkel
12:24:05  <planetmaker> we shall see :-)
12:24:10  <planetmaker> in 3.5 hours
12:24:13  <frosch123> V453000: you are lucky, you are neighboured to bavaria. 50% of parties and 60% of votes are right wing here
12:25:03  <frosch123> there are usually online tests to aid you choosing your party. usually they have 1 question to separate you from right wing stuff. but in bavaria half of the questions was to differentiate the differen right wing parties :s
12:25:57  <frosch123> other than that... i just aborted a paypal payment because the site i was redirected to did not properly validate it's idenity :s
12:26:14  <frosch123> let's try a different online shop :p
12:31:29  <planetmaker> is quite interesting
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12:32:30  <NGC3982> Darn.
12:32:38  <NGC3982> Our planning went to a complete waste
12:32:44  <NGC3982> We are to change apartment in a month
12:32:58  <planetmaker> hm, should scenario_developers be allowed to change palette as now?
12:33:24  <frosch123> you can change newgrf, then you can also change palette
12:33:26  <NGC3982> And we are already done with almost all the packaging.
12:34:02  <planetmaker> ok, so that needs changing so that it still can do that :-)
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12:50:50  <frosch123> hmm, i don't get the difference of the two results on wen-waehlen
12:52:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i think one is the questions that you answered, and the other is the priorities that you set in the beginning
12:53:05  <Eddi|zuHause> not entirely sure
12:53:37  <Eddi|zuHause> in the direct candidate section, it shows pretty much opposite results :p
12:53:38  <frosch123> well, one of them is as expected
12:53:55  <frosch123> but the other one has one party in the front, which is second-last on the other
12:54:12  <frosch123> that's weird :p
12:54:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'll prepare to go now...
12:54:53  <Eddi|zuHause> somewhere between here and there i'll probably make up my mind :)
12:55:14  <Alberth> bring a few dice along, just in case :)
12:55:32  <Eddi|zuHause> 2x W20 :)
12:55:39  <Eddi|zuHause> there are A LOT of parties :)
12:56:03  <frosch123> well, you should be able to reduce it to 4 choices at most
12:56:17  <frosch123> otherweise you really have no opinion :p
12:56:31  <Eddi|zuHause> :)
12:58:23  <frosch123> he, the blog is nice
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13:00:05  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r25792 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt newgrf_gui.cpp) (2013-09-22 12:59:59 UTC)
13:00:06  <DorpsGek> -Change: Clarify the relevance of the permissible palettes
13:00:35  *** andythenorth [] has quit []
13:01:24  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r25793 /trunk/src/lang (53 files) (2013-09-22 13:01:18 UTC)
13:01:25  <DorpsGek> -Change: Trigger update of translations for palette names
13:02:47  <AndreasB> Days in transit. Does it start after production, after loaded on train, or after train leaves station?
13:03:09  <frosch123> after loading
13:06:14  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r25794 trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp (2013-09-22 13:06:09 UTC)
13:06:15  <DorpsGek> -Change: No point to toggle a NewGRF's palette if its author declared one.
13:08:30  <AndreasB> frosch123: Ok, but % transported is based on loads not being on stations, and trains leaving quickly?
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13:09:19  <AndreasB> nvm
13:09:20  <AndreasB> reading now
13:10:44  <frosch123> % transported of industries is average of station rating during production periods
13:11:05  <V453000> yay :D
13:11:41  <frosch123> well, actually that's only true if there is only one station for the industry
13:11:52  <frosch123> if there are multiple stations it gets more complicated :)
13:12:00  <AndreasB> : p
13:12:05  <AndreasB> Buyt
13:12:12  <AndreasB> Basicly, im looking at game mechanics here
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13:12:24  <AndreasB> One needs to change the trains every year
13:12:30  <AndreasB> to keep station rating up
13:12:31  <Dozer> Holy crap, didn't expect there's actually be people in here.
13:12:40  <Dozer> Didn't think the openTTD community would be this big :)
13:12:49  <V453000> pf
13:12:51  <frosch123> Dozer: you are mistaken
13:12:52  <AndreasB> Well, most are idiots doing citybuild
13:12:56  <frosch123> there is almost noone hre
13:12:57  <V453000> XD
13:13:05  <V453000> AndreasB wins a point
13:13:10  <planetmaker> measured by downloads, not even 1% ;-)
13:13:20  <AndreasB> planetmaker: what?
13:13:23  <Dozer> AndreasB what does it mean doing citybuilds? :)
13:13:29  <frosch123> Dozer: you can easily reduce the number of members here by 100 people who have never said anything
13:13:35  <AndreasB> Dozer: Om å gjÞre å bygge den stÞrste byen
13:13:47  <Dozer> Yeah, that's usually how IRC works :D
13:13:47  <planetmaker> English only
13:13:48  <V453000> dafuq
13:13:50  <AndreasB> Ohh :(
13:13:52  <Dozer> hahaha
13:13:56  <Dozer> Norwegian ftw :D
13:14:00  <V453000> :D
13:14:02  <AndreasB> Thats discriminating.
13:14:02  <V453000> awesome
13:14:17  <AndreasB> : p
13:14:41  <AndreasB> Kick everyone who hasnt said a word last 24 hours
13:14:42  <AndreasB> :D
13:14:47  <LordAro> D:
13:14:51  <planetmaker> would become empty
13:14:54  <AndreasB> For ops the limit is 12 hours
13:15:01  <planetmaker> lol
13:15:02  <AndreasB> planetmaker: I guess
13:15:19  <planetmaker> I'd then write a script to say '.' every 11 hours for me
13:15:23  <frosch123> oh, V's language also has fancy character, but i guess neither å or Þ
13:15:23  <planetmaker> no-one wants that
13:15:25  <AndreasB> planetmaker: No seriously. Evne in-game.. There should be a higher .. requirement for admins to be active than players
13:15:42  <AndreasB> ÊÞå öÀ
13:15:53  <planetmaker> AndreasB, then play on servers which fulfill your 'requirement'
13:15:56  <Alberth> easily solved, make everybody a non-admin
13:16:00  <AndreasB> I'd be stuck alone :(
13:16:13  <AndreasB> Most servers never have admin presernt
13:16:14  <AndreasB> -r
13:16:27  <V453000> most :)
13:16:29  <Alberth> it sucks that you cannot make the world do what you want eh? :)
13:16:30  <planetmaker> important is that they're present when someone calls for them
13:16:39  <frosch123> oh, maybe ottd should exit after 24 hours of no rcon command
13:16:44  <AndreasB> Alberth: yeah, that bothers me daily...
13:16:44  <planetmaker> lol
13:16:53  <AndreasB> planetmaker: That I can agree on
13:17:03  <AndreasB> frosch123: haha
13:17:06  <AndreasB> noo
13:17:19  <AndreasB> but satellite stations shouldnt be possible
13:17:19  <planetmaker> AndreasB, and that requires me not to be connected to my server.
13:17:23  <V453000> ^
13:17:27  <AndreasB> too many use them to cheat
13:17:29  <planetmaker> I'll just get a highlight on IRC ;-)
13:17:34  <V453000> admins can be on IRC, not just in game :)
13:17:44  <AndreasB> As long as people can get a hold of you from ingame
13:17:44  <V453000> in fact admins generally do not play almost at all
13:17:46  <AndreasB> then thats fine
13:17:51  <V453000> ye
13:18:10  <AndreasB> most servers dont even have admin paging system
13:18:16  <planetmaker> instructions on how to get admin attention are usually supplied by the 'better' servers
13:18:25  <AndreasB> planetmaker: Doesnt work
13:18:38  <AndreasB> take n-ice, admins are rarely even on IRC imo
13:18:43  <planetmaker> are they?
13:18:52  <AndreasB> are they what? on irc?
13:19:05  <planetmaker> I would expect them to be around
13:19:13  <AndreasB> .Me too, good luck with that though
13:19:21  <planetmaker> but... I don't play there, so I can't tell. And... take your complaint to the individual servers
13:19:23  <AndreasB> Many servers think that satellite stations are a good thing
13:19:33  <planetmaker> yes, I do think so, too
13:19:38  <AndreasB> Yeah, I can start cheating in BF3 because "some" servers have "no rules"
13:19:39  <planetmaker> sometimes
13:19:45  <AndreasB> So its OK that I cheat on every server in bf3
13:20:08  <AndreasB> no, satellite stations that are used only for coverage, is not fine.
13:20:15  <V453000> you already player on our openttdcoop servers didnt you
13:20:22  <AndreasB> huh?
13:20:27  <planetmaker> oh, you suddenly talk of another game. I would not know BF3
13:20:32  <V453000> hm guess not :)
13:20:37  <AndreasB> I am talking openttd planetmaker
13:20:43  <V453000> well, all openttdcoop servers have basically all the time at least someone present
13:20:44  <AndreasB> I just compared
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13:20:56  <AndreasB> I have no idea what openttdcoop is
13:21:07  <Alberth> AndreasB: BF3 does not ring any bell here :)
13:21:11  <AndreasB> Sounds like a merge between BF3 and openttd
13:21:18  <planetmaker> elite openttd servers ;-) And yes, no idea what bf3 stands for even
13:21:29  <AndreasB> are you guys serious?
13:21:32  <planetmaker> yes
13:21:33  <AndreasB> You HAVE heard of bf3?
13:21:34  * Alberth nods
13:21:38  <AndreasB> battlefield 3...
13:21:49  <V453000> who cares tbh
13:21:54  <AndreasB> Eh
13:21:55  <planetmaker> ^
13:21:56  <AndreasB> Entire world..
13:22:02  <V453000> k
13:22:03  <AndreasB> waiting for bf4
13:22:04  <Alberth> wrong type of game
13:22:12  <AndreasB> Alberth: o.O
13:22:20  <AndreasB> I get to shoot people in that game
13:22:24  <AndreasB> It sure is the right kind :D
13:22:33  <V453000> kind of not the similar one to openttd
13:22:41  <AndreasB> Ok, that I cant argue on
13:24:37  <frosch123> AndreasB: you are more likely to find starcraft or dota people here
13:24:45  <AndreasB> e
13:24:46  <AndreasB> w
13:24:54  <AndreasB> Those two games are total crap, pardon me for saying so
13:24:57  <frosch123> but i guess even then the majority does not play games newer than 10 years
13:25:07  <AndreasB> Commander Keen <3
13:25:24  <frosch123> i think i played that
13:25:42  <frosch123> but there were better ones
13:25:44  * planetmaker did. a bit
13:25:49  <V453000> starcraft is crap
13:25:49  <V453000> k
13:25:54  <AndreasB> Yep
13:26:00  <AndreasB> Red Alert is aaawaeeesome!
13:26:06  * planetmaker played vgaplanets ;-)
13:26:13  <V453000> have you even played sc2? :o
13:26:21  <V453000> because I dont understand how can someone say sc2 is a bad game
13:26:38  <AndreasB> sc2 is crpa
13:26:46  <AndreasB> I guess.
13:26:52  <V453000> crpa?
13:26:57  <AndreasB> yes, crpa
13:27:04  <AndreasB> its like crap, only worse
13:27:11  <AndreasB> Its so bad if you spell it right, world goes BOOM
13:27:24  <V453000> any reasons why or it is just crap "because" ?
13:27:25  <frosch123> AndreasB: are you also one of those old guys who dislike every remake of a game? and only play stuff older than 10 years?
13:27:36  <AndreasB> frosch123: Like what?
13:27:44  <V453000> frosch123: battlefield 3 and 4 are apparently fine :)
13:27:45  <AndreasB> V453000: It's just crpa
13:27:55  <AndreasB> Dont forget BFBC2
13:27:57  <AndreasB> And ArmA 2
13:27:59  <V453000> that sounds like not the best argumentation AndreasB  :)
13:28:07  <AndreasB> V453000: Never said it was. :D
13:28:17  <AndreasB> now WoW, thats crap right there
13:28:30  <planetmaker> and CLCK and QRST and AmmA and BllOOp and PooP
13:28:32  <frosch123> WoW is about old gods afaik
13:28:40  <V453000> I suppose all that just because it is not "the game where you shoot people"
13:28:41  <AndreasB> planetmaker: whaat?
13:28:54  <AndreasB> what games are that? hah
13:28:55  <planetmaker> makes as much sense as your abbreviations ;-)
13:29:00  <AndreasB> sense?
13:29:05  <AndreasB> the games name IS ArmA 2
13:29:15  <AndreasB>
13:29:35  <Alberth> let me guess, you can shoot people?
13:29:41  <V453000> cant say I care about army games what so ever
13:29:59  <frosch123> i played lasertag last week with some colleagues, does that count?
13:30:11  <AndreasB> Alberth: It's an military simulator
13:30:48  <AndreasB> so yes, you can shoot people :P
13:31:14  <Alberth> I am starting to wonder why you are here :)
13:31:21  <AndreasB> Tell me, can a railroad track be too long?
13:31:27  <planetmaker> I guess OpenTTD falls into that category on grounds of the attack helicopter and fighter plane included ;-)
13:31:38  <AndreasB> lol
13:31:39  <frosch123> or because of bullet trains?
13:31:55  <planetmaker> or because of the apache newgrf
13:32:02  <AndreasB> meh
13:32:12  <AndreasB> is longer rail always better?
13:32:18  <Alberth> AndreasB: too long in what sense?  some people connect everything to everything, and fill the entire world with tracks :)
13:32:25  <AndreasB> haha
13:32:33  <AndreasB> Say I want to move passengers from A to B
13:32:34  <planetmaker> what defines 'good' and what 'better'? What's your scale for success?
13:32:52  <planetmaker> amount? speed? money? station rating?
13:33:02  <AndreasB> Speed vs money vs length
13:33:15  <planetmaker> that's a 3D data cube ;-)
13:33:24  <AndreasB> %€€%&//&%
13:33:45  <AndreasB> What I mean is: lets say I move 10 people 10 blocks, and get 100$
13:33:58  <AndreasB> I move them 20, and get 250$
13:34:04  <AndreasB> but if I move them 30, I only get 200$
13:34:31  <planetmaker> possibly. loading takes time and moves cargo not an inch :-)
13:34:46  <AndreasB> Am I just an idiot at explaining?
13:34:48  <Alberth> it's not that simple; train length and loading time also count, as well as eg mountains that slow down the train
13:34:51  <AndreasB> or are youtrolling me?
13:35:04  <AndreasB> Lets say straight line
13:35:11  <AndreasB> no hills
13:35:22  <AndreasB> will further always be better?
13:35:27  <planetmaker> you didn't understand my answer and call me 'trolling'? Oh well
13:36:16  <AndreasB> As days in transit increase, money decreases per unit. At some point it declines faster, do we agree?
13:36:16  <Alberth> your example already shows the counter example, right?
13:36:43  <Alberth> yep, cargo ages faster when it's beyond some age
13:37:06  <Alberth> but bringing it further gives more money, so it's a balance
13:37:06  <AndreasB> yep, so in that sense, longer isnt always better unless you can deliver in 10 days?
13:37:25  <Eddi|zuHause> ... so... how do i know i've won something now?
13:37:47  <Alberth> I don't know, I don't care for making money at all
13:37:48  <V453000> Eddi and election lottery, chapter 1? :D
13:37:52  <AndreasB> The cargo payment rates are estimated with a distance of 20 squares. Is there an easy way to recalculate?
13:38:05  <V453000> money doesnt matter in opetntd at all AndreasB
13:38:16  <AndreasB> in order to get more money for trakcs it does
13:38:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the payment graphs are somewhat useless
13:38:26  <AndreasB> But, is it possible, taking aging into account
13:38:36  <V453000> you have enough money for tracks after ~30 minutes of playing
13:38:42  <Alberth> hardly, in a matter of years you make more money than you can spend
13:38:58  <AndreasB> That maybe if I move cargo 120 squares instead of 150, I could get more money because I get more per cargo due to lower days in transit?
13:38:58  <planetmaker> that depends on your settings and choice of newgrfs and their parameters, V453000 ;-)
13:39:04  <planetmaker> we just make it easy for us
13:39:18  <V453000> sure pm but using higher costs is rather dumb, it only slows the game down, but doesnt change the logic
13:39:56  <planetmaker> V453000, but is it stupid? It's actually a challange of sorts
13:40:23  <Eddi|zuHause> it depends on if you find the "early game" or "late game" more entertaining
13:40:45  <V453000> well you wont build anything too differently
13:40:48  <V453000> just slower
13:40:54  <planetmaker> yes... and if you use GS all bets are off :-)
13:41:16  <planetmaker> will be interesting to see when the first "tax the successful players" GS appears :D
13:41:20  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly, "slower" means you have longer "early game"
13:41:39  <planetmaker> first million income in the year is free. the rest taxed with 90% :-P
13:41:41  <AndreasB> Initial cargo payment values are for delivering 100 pieces of cargo 1 tile.
13:41:43  <V453000> you have longer "early game" because you "wait more for money" Eddi, in nothing else
13:42:01  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a civ4 mod where after 50 turns, you automatically take over the lowest civ
13:42:09  <AndreasB> does that mean 10 passengers 1 tile is 3.9£ ?if initial cargo payment is 39
13:42:17  <Alberth> AndreasB: longer in the train costs money, more cargo is more money, that's the simple rule. What that means exactly depends on a lot of things, like loading time, what train you use (powerful versus fast), hills, and settings in the game. The simplest way to find out is to try it
13:43:00  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: yes, so you try to run more trains over less track, have totally different management options/requirements, ...
13:43:02  <AndreasB> I'm looking for a way to calculate it
13:43:09  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: in addition, or instead of your starting civ?
13:43:10  <planetmaker> openttd does it
13:43:16  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: instead
13:43:20  <frosch123> :o
13:43:23  <Alberth> V453000: not entirely, you also have to think more what to spend your money on
13:43:43  <V453000> that becomes routine very quickly Alberth :)
13:43:55  <Alberth> could be :)
13:43:59  <AndreasB> 1 unit of oil is 100000 liters?
13:44:21  <planetmaker> the game tells you, no?
13:44:25  <V453000> 1k I think
13:44:28  <Eddi|zuHause> 1000
13:44:30  <AndreasB> eh
13:44:37  <AndreasB> Then I dont understand your wiki
13:44:47  <AndreasB> Deliver 200,000 liters of oil 20 squares in 10 days:
13:44:47  <AndreasB> 2 * £54 * 20 squares * 100% = £2160
13:44:57  <AndreasB> 2 units * 54£
13:45:08  <Eddi|zuHause> that is 200 units
13:45:30  <AndreasB> :S
13:45:59  <AndreasB> Initial cargo payment values are for delivering 100 pieces of cargo 1 tile., that means 100 000 litres is 54£?
13:46:19  <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly are you reading?
13:46:25  <AndreasB>
13:46:34  <AndreasB> Delivery payment rates
13:46:59  <V453000> moo moo moo mooo moo mooooo mooooo You just witnessed the mad nutcow herd going home from work.
13:46:59  <V453000> bai
13:47:17  <planetmaker> :-) ciao, V453000
13:47:30  <V453000> I go draw some animals :>
13:47:40  <AndreasB> lol
13:47:49  <Eddi|zuHause> also i think the page is wrong "days" should be "payment decay time units" (default = 2.5 days)
13:49:04  <AndreasB> so 100 passengers is 1*£39*1square*100%= 39$ ?
13:49:06  <AndreasB> @ *
13:49:09  <Eddi|zuHause> AndreasB: so what is unclear?
13:49:40  <AndreasB> If I move 100 passengers 100 squares in 10 days, thats 3900£  ?
13:49:48  <AndreasB> with no inflation
13:50:58  <Eddi|zuHause> no, because passengers are immetiately in the second phase, so you don't get 100% ever
13:51:03  <AndreasB> oh right
13:51:10  <AndreasB> But I dont get this one then: Income = cargo units * cargo value * 0,4
13:51:23  <AndreasB> where does it take squares into account?
13:53:09  <Eddi|zuHause> that paragraph makes no real sense to me either
13:54:04  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like the formulas you learn in driving lessons... totally taken out of thin air
13:54:30  <Eddi|zuHause> "safety distance in cities is 3 times the length of your car"
13:54:40  <AndreasB> 3 second rule
13:54:40  <AndreasB> :D
13:54:54  <AndreasB> Is what we use here
13:55:03  <planetmaker> 3?
13:55:04  <AndreasB> in 80kmh thats 66 meters
13:55:08  <Eddi|zuHause> so if i drive a smart i don't have as much safety distance?
13:55:08  <AndreasB> Yep
13:55:34  <AndreasB> I think they can even give you a ticket for driving too close (closer than 3 seconds)
13:55:35  <Eddi|zuHause> "safety distance outside cities is half the number on the speed-meter"
13:55:49  <AndreasB> Eddi|zuHause: what?
13:56:00  <AndreasB> so if 80kmh, its 40 meters?
13:56:10  <Eddi|zuHause> something like that
13:56:10  <AndreasB> How do you .. know what 40 meters is?
13:56:30  <Eddi|zuHause> the posts at the side of the road are 50m apart
13:56:32  <AndreasB> Thats just insane, if you think 3 seconds instead, you are golden
13:56:49  * planetmaker learnte 2 seconds
13:56:59  <planetmaker> -e
13:57:02  <AndreasB> 2 seconds? And then you use 1 second toreact
13:57:12  <AndreasB> boom
13:57:37  <planetmaker> if your reaction time is 1 second, you definitely need to use 3 second rule, yes
13:57:46  <Eddi|zuHause> AndreasB: the police fine you for like below 10m distance
13:57:52  <AndreasB> Ok, i googled, I agree, haha
13:58:02  <AndreasB> from .15 seconds and up
13:58:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i generally try to have rather large distance
13:58:36  <Eddi|zuHause> but even that didn't suffice this one time...
13:58:44  <AndreasB> I g ot 275 ms
13:58:50  <AndreasB>
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13:59:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably useless test :p
13:59:08  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, 2 seconds is on German roads HUGE. At least two cars will overtake and fit in between ;-)
13:59:35  <AndreasB> 268, 273, 424, 264
13:59:48  <AndreasB> 2 seconds isnt that much
14:00:04  <planetmaker> indeed not
14:00:16  <AndreasB> 2 seconds ~tailgater
14:00:35  <planetmaker> eh... no?
14:00:52  <AndreasB> I'd be pissed if I had a car 40 meters behind me while driving 80kmh
14:01:05  <AndreasB> cause he should be at least 66 meters behind me
14:01:23  <AndreasB> planetmaker: is lanesplitting allowed in germany?
14:01:39  <AndreasB> (motorcycles)
14:01:42  <planetmaker> what's "lanesplitting"?
14:01:49  <AndreasB> driving between the lanes
14:01:57  <AndreasB> like when there is a lot of traffic
14:02:00  <AndreasB> and traffic jam
14:02:02  <planetmaker> not allowed
14:02:06  <AndreasB> really?
14:02:17  <AndreasB> thats a threat to motorcycle safety o.O
14:02:28  <AndreasB> remind me never to go to germany
14:02:30  <blathijs> But does it happen? :-)
14:02:39  <blathijs> I'm no sure if it's allowed in .nl, but it happens a lot
14:02:45  <AndreasB> It should
14:02:54  <planetmaker> blathijs, it happens a lot, yes
14:02:55  <Alberth> it's allowed in .nl afaik
14:02:57  <AndreasB> Its the only sensible way to allow motorycles to travel
14:02:58  <planetmaker> and imho very dangerous
14:03:01  <AndreasB> Alberth: Nice
14:03:02  <AndreasB> No
14:03:04  <AndreasB> Its not dangerous
14:03:27  <AndreasB>
14:03:31  <blathijs> AndreasB: How is that a threat to motorcycle safety? I always think it's courageous of motorcyclists to drive between the cars. If a car isn't payint proper attention, they can easily get rammend...
14:03:40  <Alberth> planetmaker: it's only allowed at low speed, ie traffic jams and traffic lights
14:03:49  <AndreasB> Cause I dont want a car up my ass
14:03:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's allowed in cities
14:04:10  <Eddi|zuHause> but not on motorways and stuff
14:04:10  <AndreasB> Theres no law in norway to stop it
14:04:19  <AndreasB> Eddi|zuHause: that depends here
14:04:26  <AndreasB> If there is a traffic jam, I will lanesplit
14:04:41  <Eddi|zuHause> besides, on motorways you're supposed to leave a lane free for emergency vehicles
14:04:53  <AndreasB> at all times?
14:04:56  <planetmaker> I found a link which says "not forbidden, but you need to ensure enough side-way distance to other vehicles
14:05:05  <AndreasB> planetmaker: Well yes
14:05:18  <AndreasB> When lanesplititng it is my responsibility not to crash
14:05:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really care if it's allowed, i'd find it dangerous
14:05:34  <planetmaker> but passing through within a jam is judged as overtaking on the right side by courts... so... you'll be fined
14:05:42  <Eddi|zuHause> someone could open a door and stuff
14:05:43  <planetmaker> and you're at least partially at fault, if you crash
14:06:03  <AndreasB>  You dont pass on right side
14:06:04  <AndreasB> ever.
14:06:09  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you can overtake on the right if traffic is "slow"
14:06:27  <planetmaker>
14:06:27  <AndreasB> If you have 2 lanes each way, you pass inbetween your two lanes
14:06:40  <AndreasB> I dont read german
14:07:09  <AndreasB> I dont knmow how this is in your countries
14:07:19  <AndreasB> but in norway, the law states that if someone wants to pass you
14:07:31  <AndreasB> You have to slow down, stop if nessecary to let that person pass you
14:07:37  <planetmaker> you will hardly find concise treatise on German road traffic laws which are NOT in German ;-)
14:08:16  <AndreasB> Den homologation regulerer hvilke biler har lov til å kjÞre bil.
14:08:17  <AndreasB> LOL
14:08:53  <AndreasB> it says something about cars passing motorcycles?
14:09:13  <planetmaker> vice versa
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14:09:27  <AndreasB> what is DurschlÀngelns
14:09:37  <planetmaker> passing in the middle
14:09:44  <AndreasB> So there is no law against it?
14:09:47  <AndreasB> not explicit law
14:09:49  <AndreasB> -t
14:10:09  <AndreasB> And one has to have enough side-clearance.
14:10:21  <planetmaker> [16:03]
14:10:21  <planetmaker> <planetmaker> but passing through within a jam is judged as overtaking on the right side by courts... so... you'll be fined
14:10:23  <planetmaker> ...
14:10:44  <AndreasB> aha
14:11:00  <AndreasB> Because I am passing on the right side of the car to the left?
14:11:12  <planetmaker> yes
14:11:13  <AndreasB> Ok
14:11:18  <AndreasB> So say you have 4 lanes each way
14:11:29  <AndreasB> And someone is driving slow in left lane
14:11:40  <AndreasB> you should NOT pass him in any other lane, because you are passing on right side?
14:11:46  <AndreasB> That doesnt make sense ;)
14:11:50  <Eddi|zuHause> he is violating the law, and should move to the right
14:12:02  <planetmaker> in a jam that usually is difficult ;-)
14:12:06  <AndreasB>  we please just go on standing columns with a maximum of 20 km / h over, make it two eyes and put your fingers on the brake.
14:12:16  <Eddi|zuHause> jams are special situation
14:12:30  <AndreasB> I always have fingers on clutch and brake in that situation
14:12:48  <AndreasB> You never know when a fu**tar* of a driver wants to try to kill.. err block you
14:12:59  <planetmaker> it's not exactly specified in the law, But courts rules are thus that you're at least partially at fault, if you crash doing so
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14:13:25  <planetmaker> anyway... I don't really care
14:13:25  <AndreasB> Ok, lanesplitting is imo the only sensible way to drive a motorcycle
14:13:34  <AndreasB> Norwegian cars should be happy we are allowed to do it
14:13:41  <AndreasB> otherwise jam would be A LOT bigger
14:13:50  <planetmaker> Norway virtually has no traffic
14:14:00  <planetmaker> honestly
14:14:04  <Eddi|zuHause> "(8) Ist ausreichender Raum vorhanden, dÃŒrfen Rad Fahrende und Mofa Fahrende die Fahrzeuge, die auf dem rechten Fahrstreifen warten, mit mÀßiger Geschwindigkeit und besonderer Vorsicht rechts ÃŒberholen."
14:14:13  <AndreasB> hey wait
14:14:20  <AndreasB> planetmaker: If the left lane is standing still
14:14:29  <AndreasB> Passing a PARKED vehicle on right side is allowed?
14:14:51  <AndreasB> planetmaker: i think germany can benefit from allowing lanesplitting
14:15:25  <AndreasB> Eddi|zuHause: That sounds to me to be 2 lane road
14:15:28  <AndreasB> (1 each way)
14:15:31  <Eddi|zuHause> so passing standing cars on the right is allowed, if you are on a bike, but not on a motorbike
14:15:38  <planetmaker> it would benefit more by limiting highways to 130km/h
14:15:38  <AndreasB> WTH?
14:15:48  <AndreasB> (8) If sufficient space is available, bike and motorbike Propelled Propelled may overtake the vehicles waiting in the right lane at a moderate speed and caution right.
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14:16:14  <andythenorth> hmm
14:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause> "Mofa" is some bike-motorbike-hybrid thing
14:16:25  <andythenorth> nml spritecache just cached a changed sprite
14:16:28  <andythenorth> afaict
14:16:33  <andythenorth> or I have some other weirdness
14:16:42  <andythenorth> that means compiles are indeterminate for the same rev
14:16:46  <AndreasB> "Done it in all 4 of the countries you mention, even gone past LEOs. Not a problem in any of them. If it's not legal then it's certainly accepted."
14:17:12  <planetmaker> andythenorth, how can I reproduce?
14:17:57  <andythenorth> planetmaker: no idea, never seen it before
14:18:14  <andythenorth> I changed a spritesheet locally
14:18:18  <planetmaker> just didn't save in photoshop is not a possible cause?
14:18:21  <andythenorth> no
14:18:24  <andythenorth> couldn't get the change to show up in game
14:18:36  <andythenorth> used make clean, make install
14:18:39  <andythenorth> issue resolved
14:18:50  <Alberth> and in grfcodec  decoding?
14:19:19  <andythenorth> I don't have the grf anymore :(
14:20:13  <andythenorth> the specific sequence of events:
14:20:18  <AndreasB> The main safety reason for splitting lanes is to avoid a rear end collision, and to avoid excess heat dangers such as over heated bike and possible heat stroke (it is entirely possible when sitting between cars at 103 degrees).
14:20:27  <andythenorth> I have sprite_gen_1.png and sprite_gen_2.png
14:20:40  *** Japa [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:20:42  <andythenorth> I renamed sprite_gen_2.png to sprite_gen_3.png
14:20:58  <andythenorth> then copied sprite_gen_1.png and named it sprite_gen_2.png
14:21:20  <andythenorth> sprite_gen_2.png should have appeared same as sprite_gen_1.png, but was showing same as sprite_gen_3.png
14:21:30  <andythenorth> so I figure something about that set of ops confused the cache
14:21:44  <andythenorth> ah
14:21:51  <andythenorth> I don't think I did the move with hg
14:22:01  <andythenorth> hg can cope with me changing stuff like that fine
14:22:07  <andythenorth> maybe nml can't
14:22:19  <planetmaker> nml should not care about hg mv or simple mv (or cp)
14:22:25  <andythenorth> ok
14:22:26  <planetmaker> it should be agnostic to that
14:22:28  <andythenorth> hmm
14:22:36  <andythenorth> I haven't tried to reproduce - have to go out :P
14:22:44  <planetmaker> :-)
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14:24:43  <andythenorth> make clean fixed it
14:24:57  <planetmaker> yes, that removes nml's caches
14:25:02  <andythenorth> never seeen it before, done thousands of compiles
14:25:22  <andythenorth> corner case :P
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14:26:41  <Eddi|zuHause> "(2a) Wenn auf der Fahrbahn fÃŒr eine Richtung eine Fahrzeugschlange auf dem jeweils linken Fahrstreifen steht oder langsam fÀhrt, dÃŒrfen Fahrzeuge diese mit geringfÃŒgig höherer Geschwindigkeit und mit Àußerster Vorsicht rechts ÃŒberholen." i think that paragraph applies to motorbikes in traffic jams as well
14:26:42  <AndreasB> Did any of you watch taht video?
14:26:51  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can only be fined if you drive "fast"
14:27:12  <AndreasB> Thats it
14:27:23  <AndreasB> if I pass you and planetmaker, you are both doing 10mph
14:27:29  <AndreasB> And I pass between you at 15mph
14:27:35  <planetmaker> I never drive in mph ;-)
14:27:37  <AndreasB> I havent really broken that law
14:27:39  <AndreasB> bah
14:27:47  <AndreasB> 20kmh, and 30 kmh then
14:28:16  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: but what is 'langsam'?
14:28:19  <planetmaker> AndreasB, yes, then I consider tha reckless driving of yours
14:28:25  <planetmaker> probably rightfully
14:28:32  <AndreasB> But its not
14:28:35  <AndreasB> Its safe driving
14:28:39  <AndreasB> its less reckless
14:28:46  <planetmaker> it's overtaking the left-lane driver on the right
14:28:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: something a court can decide :)
14:28:52  <AndreasB> Watch that video
14:28:54  <planetmaker> which is forbidden
14:28:56  <AndreasB> Or wth
14:28:58  <AndreasB> Nevermind
14:29:04  <AndreasB> You have already made up your mind
14:29:09  <AndreasB> Not taking facts into account
14:29:16  <planetmaker> no, I know German laws better than you ;-)
14:29:33  <AndreasB> Well yes
14:29:39  <AndreasB> of course you do
14:29:51  <planetmaker> and you simply argue like "I think it should be like <whatever>"
14:29:54  <AndreasB> But lanesplitting is SAFER than not lanesplitting
14:29:57  <AndreasB> Im not
14:30:00  <AndreasB> Watch the video.
14:30:03  <V453000> SHOOT PEOPLE
14:30:21  <planetmaker> treating motorbikes just like cars is what is safer
14:30:25  <AndreasB> noš
14:30:29  <AndreasB> So you can rear end me?
14:30:41  <AndreasB> Whats safe is giving the motorcycle control
14:30:57  <planetmaker> sure. you know what's best
14:31:02  <planetmaker> I trust you. totally
14:31:09  <AndreasB> My god
14:31:13  <AndreasB> Just watch the damn video
14:31:22  <AndreasB> If you still think its reckless, thats up to you
14:31:32  <AndreasB> I bet you are the kind that tries to kill those that do lanesplit
14:31:40  <AndreasB> That tries to block them from passing
14:32:15  <Zuu> I noticed that Simutrans now got scripted scenarios. What may be a clever thing in their solution is that within one zip file they store both the scenario file and the script file + translations. On they list 6 scripted scenarios. 2 of them look somewhat advanced (Berlin & New York City).
14:33:07  <Zuu> Would we (OpenTTD) get more interesting scripted scenarios if 1) it would be easier to upload them. 2) they would be shown as a category of its own in the content download window so that they will not be lost among all other scenarios
14:33:28  <planetmaker> AndreasB, it's a video of motorbike freaks who advocate reckless and unsafe driving for the sake of their own speed
14:33:28  <Zuu> Or is OpenTTD players more open to free play without any rules? :-)
14:33:48  <planetmaker> the type of driving they show is scary to say at least
14:33:53  <AndreasB> planetmaker: It gets you faster from A to B
14:33:54  <planetmaker> and rightfully forbidden
14:33:58  <AndreasB> You as in CAR DRIVER
14:34:10  <AndreasB> Bullshit
14:34:15  <AndreasB> Lets just drop the subject
14:34:19  <planetmaker> AndreasB, I don't care about 1 minute on a 3 hour trip. But I care about people getting there *safely*
14:34:22  <AndreasB> You are alreadsy brainwashed
14:34:27  <AndreasB> yeah
14:34:39  <planetmaker> and it will exactly gain me *one minute*
14:34:40  <AndreasB> And making motorcyclists stand still in traffic IS NOT SAFE
14:34:41  <Alberth> Zuu: scenarios need getting rid of the newgrfs first, 1 is not the main problem I think, as it affects only the author
14:34:44  <AndreasB> 1) Rear ending
14:34:48  <AndreasB> 2) Over heating
14:34:52  <Rubidium> 2) hitting an opened door
14:35:00  <AndreasB> Doors shouldnt be open!
14:35:08  <AndreasB> And if y5ou get hit by a door, you are riding TOO FAST
14:35:10  <AndreasB> Cant you see that?
14:35:14  <Rubidium> AndreasB: and you shouldn't be rear ended
14:35:17  <planetmaker> 4) pulling over to the right and being overtaken right at the same time
14:35:23  <AndreasB> Rubidium: I have NO control of that
14:35:23  <Alberth> about 2, I'd say scripting is a property of a scenario itself
14:35:31  <AndreasB> Lanesplititng gives me control over that
14:35:32  <Zuu> Alberth: Well a well designed scenario should use NewGRFs as a way to paint their story on the canvas that is the map and game rules.
14:35:37  <Rubidium> AndreasB: neither do you have control over someone opening their door
14:35:44  <Zuu> At least for a scripted scenario which aim to tell a story or so.
14:35:51  <AndreasB> Why would anyone do that?
14:35:54  <AndreasB> They are in traffic
14:36:07  <planetmaker> AndreasB, but I don't want you to take control over the intengrity of my car. Just stick to the traffic rules like all.
14:36:10  <Rubidium> because they have been standing still for 20 minutes?
14:36:15  <Rubidium> (or an hour)
14:36:17  <AndreasB> Oh well, It's legal here
14:36:22  <planetmaker> Motorbikes are not special. Simple easy. safe.
14:36:24  <AndreasB> So I will continue being safe :)
14:36:51  <AndreasB>
14:36:52  <AndreasB> That one then
14:37:02  <AndreasB> All types of people replying, not only motorcyclists
14:37:04  <Rubidium> having said that, apparantly it's allowed to overtake in a traffic jam... if the jam is stationary and you're going less than 10 kph
14:37:05  <planetmaker> that's where you err, AndreasB. It's not safe :-) It's only what you want to believe.
14:37:12  <Alberth> Zuu: I agree, you do want newgrf capabilities in the scenario, but not in the current setup imho. scripting also makes a lot of sense, so it should be an integral part of the scenario rather than an add-on, or a special type
14:37:18  <AndreasB>
14:37:24  <planetmaker> Rubidium, yes... but the video clearly adocates a quite different approach ;-)
14:37:24  <AndreasB> Why would they pass bills if it wasnt safe?
14:37:30  <Rubidium> ... and loads of other rules and regulations
14:37:57  <AndreasB> [16:37:25] <@planetmaker> Rubidium, yes... but the video clearly adocates a quite different approach ;-)
14:38:01  <AndreasB> Why do you say that?
14:38:07  <AndreasB> 15-20mph over is safe
14:38:24  <AndreasB> 15 mph is 24 kmh
14:38:26  <planetmaker> with like 1m distance to cars. overtaking in between. yeah, sure
14:38:33  <AndreasB> yep
14:38:37  <Zuu> Alberth: It could just be a tar with the scenario + specialized GS from a technical point of view. But in practice it will make it easier to upload and with an own category to find.
14:38:37  <AndreasB> Well no
14:38:39  <planetmaker> it's insane
14:38:41  <AndreasB> Nor with 1M
14:38:45  <AndreasB> 1M is too little
14:39:03  <AndreasB> But usually there is more than that between cars
14:39:20  <planetmaker> anyway, it's discussed ad nauseam. you got your opinion. Drive safely. It's kinda become boring and... slightly off-topic here
14:39:26  <planetmaker> eod for me
14:39:45  <AndreasB> :)
14:40:11  <AndreasB> I do drive safely, I hope you do too. And if you encounter someone "breaking the law", try to make as much roo mfor him as you can :)
14:40:22  <planetmaker> why?
14:40:32  <Rubidium> well... I almost hit a door of a car when on my bicycle going something like 15 km/h and had barely enough time to stop. This was on a dedicated busy bike lane next to a road where there wasn't really a reason to expect someone to get out after standing in a queue for a while
14:40:41  <AndreasB> " It is allowed in California and has proven to be safe"
14:40:51  <planetmaker> wth do I care about US laws?
14:40:55  <Alberth> Zuu: it should be a tar imho, especially with the new format by T3rkhen. A new category may make sense to differentiate them from the "old" scenarios, which would be good probably
14:40:56  <AndreasB> Rubidium: Dont worry
14:41:01  <AndreasB> We hate you cyclists too
14:41:07  <AndreasB> get the F*** off the road
14:41:14  <AndreasB> :)
14:41:22  <planetmaker> a car door caught me once. My bike was broken. So was the door
14:41:49  <Rubidium> ah well, I'm likely faster at my work by bicycle than you would be, if you were obeying the law ;)
14:41:56  <planetmaker> :-)
14:42:21  <AndreasB> I am obeying norwegian law
14:42:28  <AndreasB> ther eis no law against lanesplitting
14:42:42  <planetmaker> Where you drive you need to obey luckily local law ;-)
14:43:06  <Rubidium> in any case, lane splitting won't help you win my "race" ;)
14:43:20  <Rubidium> it's the traffic lights that make you loose
14:43:34  <AndreasB> Rubidium: Are you on the road with your bicycle?
14:43:36  <planetmaker> indeed. I'm faster at work with my bicycle than by any other transport means
14:43:39  <AndreasB> If yes: Stop for the red light
14:43:44  <AndreasB> otherwise YOU are the one breaking the law
14:43:48  <AndreasB> (At least here)
14:43:57  <AndreasB> If you are on a bicycle, you are considered a vehicle
14:44:01  <AndreasB> and the law applies to vehicles.-
14:44:18  <AndreasB> You have to stop for the same red light that I have to stop for
14:44:25  <Rubidium> AndreasB: I'm on the bicycle path, where you aren't allowed to drive with your motorcycle, that goes over all the roads that you need to cross using traffic lights
14:44:29  <planetmaker> no. Bicycles have separate lanes ;-)
14:44:34  <planetmaker> and separate traffic lights :-)
14:45:22  * Rubidium knows places where traffic lights for bicyclists are green four times more often than those for cars/motorcycles
14:45:27  <planetmaker> and as long as they do exist, I'm not even allowed to drive on the road
14:48:12  <AndreasB> Rubidium: Ah, you mean on the side.. Normally you have a lights there too, yes?
14:48:24  <AndreasB> We also have bicycle paths, but they have to stop for red signal
14:49:13  <Rubidium> the bicycle path I'm talking about has a bridge over the roads, where the cars/motorcycles need to cross it at level
14:49:16  <AndreasB> most just keep on going at red lights
14:49:24  <AndreasB> ah, ok
14:49:28  <AndreasB> well thats good.
14:49:41  <AndreasB> But you get green at same time as cars, of course?
14:49:52  <AndreasB> Or same time as those who are walking across?
14:50:01  <Rubidium> depends on the location
14:50:03  <AndreasB> ok
14:50:11  <AndreasB> Say you are coming down the pathway
14:50:15  <AndreasB> where people walk
14:50:20  <AndreasB> And want to cross the road
14:50:26  <AndreasB> You HAVE to get off the bike?
14:51:02  <AndreasB> Her in .no I do not stop for cyclists that doesnt get off their bikes, even if light is green for crossing
14:51:24  <Rubidium> I know a place where all cyclists from all sides are getting green at the same time, then one direction of cars, then cyclists, then another direction of cars, then cyclists, then the third direction of cars, then cyclists (all of them), then the fourth direction for cars and then the cycle starts again
14:51:50  <AndreasB> eh
14:51:53  <AndreasB> I didnt get that
14:52:05  <AndreasB> So first all cyclists gets green
14:52:11  <AndreasB> no matter what direction
14:52:16  <Rubidium> exactly
14:52:28  <AndreasB> then one direction of cars
14:52:29  <AndreasB> eh
14:52:32  <AndreasB> Thats weird
14:52:36  <AndreasB> illogical
14:52:48  <planetmaker> that's netherlands. and cycling works exceptionally well there.
14:52:52  <AndreasB> Northbound and southbound should get green at the same time
14:53:14  <Rubidium> AndreasB: then you haven't been in the Netherlands, because that will cause deadlocks
14:53:20  <AndreasB> how so?
14:53:27  <AndreasB> I think you misunderstood me kinda
14:53:32  <AndreasB> I know I misunderstood myself
14:53:55  <Rubidium> those from the south going to the west and from the north going to the east will have to basically wait on eachother
14:54:01  <AndreasB> Example: Northbound going straight and southbound going straight gets green at the same time
14:54:11  <AndreasB> yes, but they didnt get green yet
14:54:42  <AndreasB> N->E and S->W can drive at the same time
14:54:51  <AndreasB> and N-W and S-E
14:54:57  <AndreasB> N-N, and S-S
14:55:06  <AndreasB> W->W and E->E
14:55:12  <AndreasB> do you understand?
14:55:20  <Rubidium> still, then you have different 'states' of the junction
14:55:27  <AndreasB> yes
14:55:55  <Rubidium> instead of everyone coming from the south goes in state 1, everybody from east in state 2, etc
14:56:55  <AndreasB>
14:57:00  <AndreasB> thats a place near where I live
14:57:13  <AndreasB> left lane = goes left, right lane = straight + right
14:57:27  <AndreasB> When the red light goes green, both lanes can go
14:57:42  <AndreasB> Then the light becomes red again, and the little box on the side becomes green
14:57:47  <AndreasB> meaning only those going left
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14:59:34  <AndreasB> can you find me a crossing like the one you are talking about?
15:00:50  <AndreasB>
15:00:54  <AndreasB> is that what you mean Rubidium?
15:02:07  <Rubidium> that's just a massive mess
15:03:16  <AndreasB> lol
15:03:23  <AndreasB> amsterdam :P
15:05:01  <Rubidium> stupid Google...
15:05:20  <Rubidium> they went to the place where I know it works like I just explained when they were doing road works there :(
15:05:35  <AndreasB> aww
15:05:54  <AndreasB> next intersection then? :D
15:06:25  <AndreasB> But
15:06:48  <AndreasB> It was said that if 10% of car drivers in belgium switched to motorcycles
15:06:59  <AndreasB> there would be 40% less .. trafficjams?
15:07:10  <AndreasB> I dont know the correct english word for it lol
15:07:20  <planetmaker> one hour to go... until "Mutti vs. Stinkefinger" comes to its final show-down
15:07:20  <AndreasB> Directly translated its like queue
15:08:12  <AndreasB> do you know what its called?
15:08:20  <Rubidium> though you can't really see the traffic light of the cyclists there
15:09:08  <AndreasB> ok, so one direction gets green at a time?
15:09:09  <NGC3982> That look so ..swedish.
15:09:16  <AndreasB> no it doesnt
15:09:16  <AndreasB> lol
15:09:20  <AndreasB> ok
15:09:22  <AndreasB> maybe it does
15:09:33  <Rubidium> AndreasB: yes, cars coming from one direction (going to the three others)
15:09:34  <AndreasB> NGC3982: I was in gothenburg yesterday
15:09:46  <AndreasB> Rubidium: That sounds like it creates more traffic than it solves
15:09:50  <NGC3982> Grey, brown and bad weather.
15:09:58  <NGC3982> AndreasB: Neat. Aren't you Swedish in the first place?
15:10:01  <planetmaker> lol, I trust the Swedish person more in the judgement "swedish" ;-)
15:10:04  <AndreasB> I would let N->N and S->S go first
15:10:28  <AndreasB> maybe even N-E and S-W at the same time
15:10:37  <AndreasB> jeg er norsk ffs
15:10:38  <Rubidium> you still have the same number of states
15:10:40  <AndreasB> :D
15:10:46  <AndreasB> no
15:10:51  <NGC3982> AndreasB: :D
15:10:54  <AndreasB> you do?
15:11:10  <AndreasB> With your thingie you have 4 car states, plus 4 cyclist?
15:11:23  <Rubidium> AndreasB: yes
15:11:37  <AndreasB> with mine you have ... 4
15:11:37  <AndreasB> lol
15:11:50  <planetmaker> lol. no way. You neglect cyclist in your "solution"
15:11:52  <Rubidium> AndreasB: and with your thingie, *and* the pro cyclist 'rules' you still have 4 car states + 4 cyclist states
15:12:02  <AndreasB> planetmaker: Not counting cyclicsts
15:12:07  <AndreasB> yep
15:12:10  <AndreasB> Rubidium: Thats true
15:12:12  <AndreasB> BUT
15:12:17  <planetmaker> thus you compare apples and pears
15:12:20  <AndreasB> With mine, you could have as low as 2 car
15:12:22  <planetmaker> and say apples are 'better'
15:12:26  <AndreasB> Because if noone is going left
15:12:31  <Rubidium> because after each car state, there must be an opportunity for all cyclists to cross the junction
15:12:31  <AndreasB> the light will never go green for left
15:12:34  <AndreasB> but skip it
15:12:49  <AndreasB> allowing better flow of traffic since n-n and s-s can drive at the same time
15:12:57  <planetmaker> not happening the densest populated country in Europe
15:13:10  <planetmaker> (maybe except Luxembourg, Malta,...)
15:13:35  <AndreasB> what does dijk mean?
15:13:39  <AndreasB> is that like street?
15:13:51  <planetmaker> Deich ;-)
15:13:57  <AndreasB> kuipers street kuipersdirjk
15:14:12  <Rubidium> causeway
15:14:28  <AndreasB> -r
15:14:31  <AndreasB> what?
15:14:33  <AndreasB> causeway?
15:14:48  * planetmaker enjoys the popcorn
15:15:00  <Rubidium> /
15:15:28  <Eddi|zuHause> "A causeway is a road or railway route across a broad body of water or wetland  raised up on an embankment."
15:15:45  <Eddi|zuHause> [Wikipedia]
15:16:02  <AndreasB> :S
15:16:09  <AndreasB> That was in the middle of city, but ok
15:16:19  <Rubidium> s/was/is/
15:16:20  <Eddi|zuHause> the netherlands are all wetland :p
15:16:34  <Rubidium> it *was* outside of the city... some time ago
15:16:39  <AndreasB> hahaha Rubidium
15:16:42  <AndreasB> +1
15:16:58  <AndreasB> but lanesplitting allowed in .nl?
15:17:08  <AndreasB> NGC3982: Is it allowed in sweden?
15:17:35  <AndreasB> But really
15:17:45  <AndreasB> Its fun how study in belgium showed that if 10
15:17:50  <AndreasB> 10% changed to motorycle
15:17:50  <Rubidium> AndreasB: at traffic standing still and you not going faster than 10 km/h and the lane not being closed and the lane not being an emergency lane and ...
15:17:54  <AndreasB> 40% less traffic
15:18:11  <AndreasB> you have own emergency lanes?
15:18:43  <AndreasB> Lets say its 70kmh zone, and traffic is going at 45, I can pass at 55 ?
15:18:51  <Rubidium> no
15:19:01  <AndreasB> ok, because?
15:19:18  <AndreasB> Im not going faster than 10kmh over
15:19:29  <Rubidium> but the traffic is moving
15:19:32  <AndreasB> so?
15:19:38  <AndreasB> they are still under speedlimit
15:19:43  <AndreasB> and I will lanesplit
15:20:10  <AndreasB> bah, who am I kidding
15:20:14  <AndreasB> I dont give a fuck what speed is
15:20:29  <AndreasB> As long as its under the speedlimit, and I have enough room, I will pass cars
15:21:00  <planetmaker> I want to see motorcyclist doing that both ways ;-)
15:21:07  <AndreasB> Cars have to stop envying us motorcyclists
15:21:16  <AndreasB> planetmaker: That could be exciting
15:21:48  <planetmaker> yup. head-on-crash two motor-cycles and 4 damaged cars. fun.
15:22:00  <planetmaker> but faster
15:22:08  <planetmaker> I'm already envious :-)
15:22:26  <planetmaker> you even can then ignore red lights. Lawfully. In the ambulance
15:23:01  <AndreasB> planetmaker: Not really
15:23:11  <AndreasB> I would have to move into my lane, he into his lane
15:23:21  <AndreasB> But normally there are 2 lanes each way
15:23:36  <Rubidium> <- where would you overtake this bunch?
15:23:46  <Rubidium> there's lots of space on the left and right of the road ;)
15:23:50  <AndreasB> Do you guys have own bus-lanes?
15:23:57  <AndreasB> Can motorcycles drive there?
15:24:04  <planetmaker> can yes.
15:24:20  <AndreasB> Well, this seems like a trick question
15:24:28  <AndreasB> I take it the leftmsot lane is emergency lane
15:24:32  <AndreasB> Since the X
15:24:35  <AndreasB> and long stripes
15:24:41  <Rubidium> AndreasB: I wouldn't do that in Enschede. Even if it's allowed, it would be extremely slow to travel over it
15:24:48  <planetmaker> looks like the typical dutch highway near cities
15:25:00  <AndreasB> But I might pass between lane 1 and 2, or 2 and 3
15:25:11  <AndreasB> In norway there is a law that states "keep to the right"
15:25:19  <AndreasB> The first vehicle there would break that law
15:25:32  <planetmaker> no vehicle in the image breaks that rule
15:25:35  <Rubidium> mostly because the traffic lights are triggered by a transponder in the bus that you won't have
15:25:40  <AndreasB> Eh planetmaker
15:25:42  <AndreasB> keep the RIGHT
15:25:44  <AndreasB> not LEFT
15:25:50  <planetmaker> yes. None violates it, though
15:26:00  <AndreasB> Rubidium: here its triggered by thingie in the ground
15:26:06  <AndreasB> planetmaker: He does
15:26:07  <planetmaker> They overtake slower traffic on the right
15:26:11  <AndreasB> He is keeping the the left
15:26:16  <AndreasB> in his lane
15:26:18  <Rubidium> AndreasB: for normal roads it is, but for bus lanes it generally isn't
15:26:21  <AndreasB> He has 1 meter to the right
15:26:27  <AndreasB> he should be more to the right imho
15:26:40  <planetmaker> it's my lane. where I drive there is my beer
15:26:59  <AndreasB> But judging on their position, I'd pass them between the two rightmost lanes
15:27:02  <planetmaker> it's fit for exactly one vehicle. Not more. Lest one vehicle and one motor cycle
15:27:13  <AndreasB> planetmaker: Bullshit
15:27:23  <AndreasB> That lane is wide enought to fit both motorcycle and car
15:27:28  <AndreasB> Considering two lanes are used
15:27:31  <planetmaker> not with safety margin
15:27:34  <AndreasB> Yup
15:27:35  <AndreasB> :)
15:27:48  <AndreasB> 5 feet should be enough
15:27:57  <AndreasB> 3 for me, then one feet on either side
15:27:58  <planetmaker> no. 1.5m
15:28:08  <planetmaker> each side
15:28:11  <AndreasB> nope
15:28:18  <AndreasB> I disagree
15:28:18  <planetmaker> look up in the legislation ;-)
15:28:29  <AndreasB> well yes, but we all know laws are stupid
15:28:32  <Dozer> Rubidium in Denmark we're starting to pass laws about allowing the emergency lane to be used during peak hours as well.
15:28:33  <AndreasB> Or, many of them are
15:28:44  <AndreasB> Dozer: you have emergency lanes? :S
15:28:49  <AndreasB> I've never seen that in norway
15:29:00  <Dozer> AndreasB on the motor-ways, yes.
15:29:14  <AndreasB> Dozer: do you have bus-lanes like we do?=
15:29:16  <AndreasB> for bus + taxi
15:29:28  <Dozer> AndreasB in copenhagen I know they do have it.
15:29:37  <AndreasB> Can MC's drive in it?
15:29:43  <Dozer> Otherwise they would never go anywhere, besides being stuck in traffic.
15:29:49  <AndreasB> and can I lanesplit in denmark?
15:29:52  <Dozer> No clue, but my guess would be no.
15:29:58  <Dozer> What is lanesplit?
15:30:01  <planetmaker> haha :-)
15:30:16  <Rubidium> Dozer: actually the lane with the red X isn't an emergency lane, it's an extra lane for rush hour
15:30:25  <Dozer> Rubidium I know :)
15:30:27  <AndreasB> Why isnt it always open?
15:30:46  <Dozer> I just noticed that they were using the lane to the far right, which for me, is the emergency lane.
15:30:49  <AndreasB> whats the lane on the right side?
15:30:57  <Rubidium> problem is that due to legal reasons... yay greens, you can either have the two lanes open and drive 120 or have three lanes open and drive 100
15:31:15  <AndreasB> what?
15:31:20  <AndreasB> So speedlimit with 2 lanes = 130
15:31:22  <Rubidium> the lane of the right side is the emergency lane (for when you have car trouble)
15:31:23  <Dozer> Rubidium either way, it would still be better with 3 lanes.
15:31:24  <AndreasB> 3 lanes = 100?
15:31:24  <planetmaker> Rubidium, is 3 lanes per direction limited to 100km/h in NL?
15:31:29  <AndreasB> WTF
15:31:33  <Dozer> You could still push way more traffic through.
15:31:33  <AndreasB> that doesnt make sense
15:31:35  <Rubidium> planetmaker: nope, depends on the situation
15:31:44  <AndreasB> We have 100 max no matter how many lanes :D
15:31:46  <planetmaker> aye ok. I just wondered.
15:31:47  <Rubidium> but in this case the third lane is narrower
15:31:59  <AndreasB> Rubidium: I see 4 signals over the road
15:32:01  <AndreasB> but 3 lanes..
15:32:02  <planetmaker> not suitable for trucks :-)
15:34:09  <Rubidium> they can show a green arrow above the emergency lane in case of a collision to tell people it's okay to drive on that lane to pass the accident
15:34:18  <AndreasB> I drove to gothenburg yesterday
15:34:21  <AndreasB> And I was..
15:34:35  <AndreasB> baffled by how much better swedes are at looking in the mirror
15:34:44  <AndreasB> People actually moved out of the way to let me pass on motorcycle
15:35:03  <Dozer> AndreasB but I was thinking about your earlier statement when I first entered the channel, about peoplle just doing "city builds". Are there other ways to make an even more profitable company in the game besides that?
15:35:35  <Dozer> An easy start is ofc just wailing some planes out, and some trains, and transport whatever pays the most, fast.
15:36:10  <planetmaker> Dozer, it can be very profitable to transfer all local passengers to an ICE terminal. And ship passengers from there to another large metropolitan area on the other side of the map
15:36:30  <Dozer> What is an ICE terminal?
15:36:36  <planetmaker> planes, btw, are not a good choice. airports are VERY limited in throughput. Any train station easily beats that
15:36:41  <planetmaker> inter city express :-)
15:37:03  <planetmaker> < those ;-)
15:37:21  <Rubidium> likewise with cargo; transfer iron ore to one corner of the map (preferably the one furthest away), then move the steel to a factory at the complete opposite of the map, and move the goods back to a town near the steel mill
15:37:31  <Dozer> Yeah I know about their very limites throughput, but if you can throttle that to the maximum, without overdoing the planes pr airfield, you can make a ton of money.
15:37:36  <Rubidium> you just moved one stream of cargo about 4 times over the whole map
15:37:42  <AndreasB> Rubidium: +1
15:37:51  <AndreasB> how did we get back on topic? o.O
15:37:52  <planetmaker> Dozer, yes... but it needs (usually) maintenace. planes crash. trains not
15:37:58  <planetmaker> when unmaintained and with default settings
15:38:00  <Dozer> True.
15:38:10  <planetmaker> and one train can make more money than a plane
15:38:10  <AndreasB> Tell me
15:38:17  <planetmaker> and succession can be quicker
15:38:19  <AndreasB> is there an easy way to swap out old trains?
15:38:21  <AndreasB> for new ones
15:38:22  <Dozer> Rubidium I'm just thinking, how is it profitable to transfer it THAT much across the map?
15:38:33  <planetmaker> hm... :-) let me look
15:38:34  <AndreasB> Considering you should get new trains every year
15:38:55  <AndreasB> Age in years of last vehicle entering station <---
15:38:57  <Dozer> planetmaker I know the german ICE trains ;) I just though it was a certain type of transportation in the game.
15:39:24  <AndreasB> Also make sure that every turn is at least the size of train
15:39:28  <AndreasB> so it doesnt slow down
15:39:33  <Dozer> ye
15:39:46  <planetmaker> for instance :-)
15:40:00  <AndreasB> I see many people use
15:40:00  <AndreasB> WOW
15:40:02  <AndreasB> THAT CITY
15:40:34  <AndreasB> why are there 4 statsions after eachother?
15:40:34  <planetmaker> Dozer, well. in coop we have a certain "game style" which we sometimes employ. we call that s-bahn and ice. Which means local transport and inter-city (long distance)
15:40:38  <Rubidium> Dozer: I'm not quite sure, though a fast train makes money when it moves, so it should be moving most of the time instead of waiting/slowing down at stations
15:41:08  <planetmaker> AndreasB, the station doesn't otherwise fit into 64x64 tiles with the required capacity
15:41:49  <AndreasB> huh?
15:41:51  <planetmaker> the four small maglev stations there are the city-local transport
15:42:05  <AndreasB> Sorry, dont get it lol
15:42:10  <planetmaker> and for space reasons the different lines are put next to each other at the hub terminal
15:42:12  <AndreasB> they are all connected?
15:42:16  <planetmaker> download the savegame and see yourself
15:42:19  <AndreasB> ok
15:42:31  <planetmaker> you might need the #openttdcoop grfpack, though
15:42:55  <planetmaker> <-- download and unzip into your newgrf dir
15:43:16  <planetmaker> direct link
15:43:33  <AndreasB> ah
15:43:39  <planetmaker> AndreasB, and yes, every station is used. to its capacity limit
15:44:12  <Dozer> Where is the newgrf folder placed planetmaker?
15:44:47  <planetmaker> dunno, what OS do you have?
15:44:55  <planetmaker> readme section 4.2 :D
15:44:58  <V453000> my god pm showing game 84 when we are at 260s is a bit old XD
15:45:15  <planetmaker> V453000, well... I remember best the games... I played myself :D
15:45:21  <Dozer> planetmaker windows 7 :P
15:45:22  <planetmaker> forgive me :-)
15:45:27  <AndreasB> I dont get where to put them
15:45:32  <AndreasB> C:\Users\unknown\Documents\OpenTTD\newgrf\ottdc_grfpack
15:45:42  <Dozer> ah there.
15:45:44  <Dozer> ty
15:45:52  <V453000> I realize that :D perhaps you might want to have a look at the hall of fame for a short overview :P
15:46:07  <planetmaker> yes... just looking for that tbh :-)
15:46:59  <AndreasB> planetmaker: Cant get it to work xD
15:47:22  <planetmaker> <-- but this one I was looking for really. 3 cities. 2.9M population overall :-)
15:47:33  <AndreasB> where do i unzip to?
15:47:40  <V453000> 201 is highest population with 50%+transported
15:47:47  <V453000> games before that often had low transported rates
15:47:50  <planetmaker> with each city having one ICE terminal. turn-over of ~20000 passengers per *month*
15:48:14  <V453000> 101 was record with 3M population, but idk, like 10% actually transported
15:48:21  <planetmaker> game 96 had low transport, too
15:48:28  <planetmaker> at least in "my" city
15:48:29  <V453000> aye
15:48:35  <planetmaker> not low transport. but station rating
15:48:48  <V453000> transfer station rating is always low
15:48:49  <planetmaker> that's different things really :-)
15:48:54  <planetmaker> yeah
15:49:00  <V453000> what matters is % transported
15:49:03  <planetmaker> ^
15:49:04  <AndreasB> :|
15:49:09  <AndreasB> oh well, screw it then
15:49:16  <planetmaker> AndreasB, you said it yourself where to unzip the grfpack to
15:49:17  <AndreasB> wiki doesnt even say where to put them
15:49:20  <AndreasB> I DID
15:49:22  <planetmaker> not sure what more advice you need
15:49:23  <AndreasB> It didnt work
15:49:23  <V453000> I say 50%+ is a rule, 60% is okay, 70% is good, 80% very good, and above 90% perfect
15:49:43  <planetmaker> nor does my crystal ball, you know ;-)
15:49:48  <planetmaker> (no, you don't)
15:49:51  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has joined #openttd
15:50:08  <AndreasB> I am missing grf's
15:50:11  <AndreasB> Canadian stations set
15:50:14  <AndreasB> Dutch station set
15:50:18  <V453000> thats the grf pack
15:50:27  <Dozer> I get some of the same issues.
15:50:29  <AndreasB> C:\Users\unknown\Documents\OpenTTD\newgrf\ottdc_grfpack
15:50:32  <AndreasB> Well, I have that there..
15:50:37  <Dozer> I did download the grf pack, but it still says I have some files missing.
15:50:42  <Dozer> I could find some of the online.
15:50:44  <Dozer> But not all.
15:50:48  <V453000> did you unzip the pack?
15:50:48  <planetmaker> what is missing?
15:50:52  <AndreasB> yes V453000
15:51:06  <V453000> well then idk how did you achieve that :D
15:51:33  <AndreasB> I am missing: Canadian stations set v0.3d, dutch station set, modern tram set, new water 0.7, north american roads set v.19, ottd_grfpack/8_cehivles/trams
15:51:40  <Dozer> CanadianStations V0.3d
15:51:49  <Dozer> Dutch stations set
15:51:54  <Dozer> Modern Tramset
15:51:55  <V453000> yes clearly the grf pack
15:52:00  <Dozer> New Water 0.7
15:52:17  <Dozer> NOrth American Road Set V1.0
15:52:20  <V453000> same for Dozer
15:52:20  <V453000> ..
15:52:25  <AndreasB> if I move the grf pack out, I get more missing stuff
15:52:27  <planetmaker> sounds all like what's in the grfpack
15:52:32  <AndreasB> but clearly something still missing
15:52:38  <planetmaker> ok... missing but compatible found?
15:52:45  <AndreasB> no
15:52:51  <Dozer> My list was way longer at first.
15:52:56  <Dozer> But managed to find it online.
15:53:00  <Dozer> So it auto-downloaded.
15:53:04  <AndreasB> let me delete all newgrf I ahve downloaded
15:53:06  <AndreasB> then put it back in
15:53:12  <Dozer> But it still has 6 things missing.
15:53:45  <planetmaker> 2_landscape/newwater/newwaterw.grf is there in the pack
15:54:06  <AndreasB> nope, still missing the same
15:54:18  <planetmaker> do you guys have your openttd.cfg next to your openttd.exe? and not in c:\Users\blah\Documents\OpenTTD?
15:54:21  <Alberth> you unzipped it to a directory tree?
15:54:33  <Dozer> I have the config file in my documents folder.
15:54:37  <Dozer> Not in the install location.
15:54:40  <AndreasB> eh
15:54:52  <planetmaker> then try moving the ottdc_grfpack dir to the newgrf dir next to openttd.exe
15:54:57  <AndreasB> Config file is : C:\Users\unknown\Documents\OpenTTD
15:55:01  <AndreasB> ok
15:55:42  <AndreasB> There is no newgrf dir there
15:56:09  <Eddi|zuHause> 4 minutes to go...
15:56:24  <planetmaker> create it. put the ottdc_grfpack dir inside that newly created newgrf dir
15:56:40  <Dozer> Still not working.
15:56:58  <AndreasB> misisng files
15:57:31  <AndreasB> but it says, "This is a replacement for an existing NewGRF"
15:57:41  <planetmaker> that's ok
15:57:44  <AndreasB> k
15:58:03  <planetmaker> those mentioned newgrfs are only provided as compatible ones
15:58:43  <Dozer> Yeah I get the same.
15:58:51  <Dozer> I think it's the MD5 checksum that isn't identical.
15:58:55  <Dozer> So it complains about it.
15:59:00  <Dozer> Because the files are actually present.
15:59:01  <planetmaker> yes. I know. But that's ok. They will work
15:59:20  <planetmaker> you'll have yellow indications in the newgrf settings instead of green. but it should load and display fine
15:59:35  <AndreasB> they are red
15:59:53  <AndreasB> in newgrf settings they are yellow
16:00:03  <AndreasB> but
16:00:06  <AndreasB> generictram
16:00:06  <planetmaker> so... what happens when you press 'load'?
16:00:11  <AndreasB> I cant
16:00:14  <AndreasB> It says its missing files
16:00:32  <AndreasB> When I look at the only red file
16:00:48  <AndreasB> its 8_vehicles/generictrams/generictrams_v0.32.grf
16:00:51  <AndreasB> Mathcine file not found
16:00:53  <AndreasB> matching*
16:01:04  <planetmaker> hm...
16:01:11  <AndreasB> but here
16:01:12  <AndreasB> B>
16:01:13  <AndreasB> err
16:01:16  <AndreasB> C:\Users\unknown\Documents\OpenTTD\newgrf\ottdc_grfpack_vehicles\trams
16:01:24  <AndreasB> there are no such dir as "generictrams"
16:02:45  <planetmaker> ok, hold on
16:07:13  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... this prognosis is... inconclusive
16:07:20  <AndreasB> holding on
16:07:22  <AndreasB> for life
16:07:31  <Dozer> Remember to hold your breath as well.
16:08:28  <Eddi|zuHause> CDU/CSU (42%) might have a shot at absolute majority, if FDP is out (4,7%) and AfD (euro-sceptics) is also not in (4.9%)
16:08:37  <planetmaker> hmpf. I don't find that file on my HDD :D
16:08:54  <planetmaker> but I clearly have it :-D
16:09:22  *** Dozer| [] has joined #openttd
16:09:30  <AndreasB> lol
16:10:12  <Alberth> planetmaker:  something like Generic_Tram_Set-0.4.tar  ?
16:10:49  <planetmaker>
16:10:50  <planetmaker> yes
16:11:16  <planetmaker> was in the logical place. Just too stupid to both see it and grep for it :-)
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16:17:27  <planetmaker> seems that we removed it as compatible. But compatible isn't downloaded. oh well.
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16:29:10  <planetmaker> does it work with that additional grf file, Dozer ?
16:30:49  <V453000> FUCK, is there a maximum file LENGTH for nmlc?
16:30:53  <V453000> like 65k?
16:32:22  <Eddi|zuHause> CETS is much larger than that
16:32:40  <V453000> k so unexpected end of file is some other issue :D
16:33:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that usually means a missing }
16:33:25  <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe ;
16:33:55  <V453000> hm :) fuck
16:35:08  <V453000> aye, found it :)
16:35:13  <V453000>  /panic mode off
16:35:31  <Dozer> planetmaker no. I kinda just aborted the mission to get it working.
16:35:37  <Dozer> Was AndreasB able to get it to work?
16:37:22  <planetmaker> no clue
16:38:15  <V453000> he seems to be happy on our server now, idk with the savegame
16:38:28  <Dozer> planetmaker but basically, with or without the GRF's, the trick is to just transfer passengers from towns into a larger terminal, and the transport it from there with larger faster trains to other larger terminals, across the map, near big cities?
16:39:54  <planetmaker> that's the essence, yes. Makes it sound boring though ;-) while building it was loads of fun :D
16:40:19  <Dozer> Nono, I like it like that :D
16:40:28  <Dozer> It's simple as fuck, and I won't run out of ressources on that one.
16:41:30  <Dozer> But I noticed, when I transfer certain types to train terminals, does some sustain there, while other wither away over time?
16:41:48  <Dozer> Like, diamonds, I had them transfer from several sites to a big terminal, but they just disappeared over time.
16:42:12  <planetmaker> default industries don't wither way over time (unless it's oil wells)
16:42:54  <Dozer> Oh okay. The diamonds just.. disappeared from my transfer terminal for some reason.
16:43:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to keep rating above 50% at all times
16:43:35  <planetmaker> service frequency / quality might have been too bad
16:44:07  <planetmaker> diamonds have very low production, thus at least intially it needs low-capacity vehicles to pickup stuff
16:46:25  <Dozer> Yeah. But I just figured that, if I collect those from the site, and transfer it to a train terminal, that is sitting with no association to anything, and is in the middle of nowhere, it would just sit there, untill I pick it up with a larger train?
16:46:41  <Dozer> Or do I need to have a train come to that terminal in a high rate, for the stuff to not wither away over time?
16:47:46  <planetmaker> it would start to decay after station rating is <50%
16:48:12  <V453000> VERY slowly mind you XD
16:48:32  <V453000> we lately seem to get values like 600 000 passengers at stations rather often :|
16:48:32  <Dozer> aaaah okay
16:48:34  <Dozer> Now I get it.
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16:55:31  <planetmaker> station rating calculation is a bit... awkward. It doesn't account for turn-over but only for 'currently waiting'
17:00:25  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, newest estimate says CDU absolute majority by 2 seats
17:00:46  <planetmaker> omg. That'd be disasterous :-(
17:01:28  <Eddi|zuHause> under the assumption that both FDP (4.6%) and AfD (4.9%) are out
17:01:35  <planetmaker> yeah
17:02:28  <Dozer> CDU is that the opposition atm, or is it Merkel's party?
17:02:35  <planetmaker> Merkel's
17:02:38  <Eddi|zuHause> that is Merkels party
17:02:54  <Eddi|zuHause> current government is CDU+FDP
17:03:21  <Dozer> ah okay
17:03:28  <Eddi|zuHause> AfD is a new euro-sceptics party, and SPD, Green and Left are the current opposition
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17:29:11  <fjb> Moin.
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17:33:02  * fjb just came home from counting votes.
17:33:55  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, so it's your fault :p
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17:38:49  * fjb is just telling the bad news.
17:45:56  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25795 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-09-22 17:45:44 UTC)
17:45:57  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:58  <DorpsGek> catalan - 6 changes by juanjo
17:45:59  <DorpsGek> korean - 4 changes by telk5093
17:46:00  <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 2 changes by Stabilitronas
17:46:01  <DorpsGek> polish - 5 changes by lion
17:46:02  <DorpsGek> russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
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17:46:41  <Eddi|zuHause> always shoot the messenger :p
17:47:39  * fjb hides.
17:49:42  <AndreasB> Do you guys have any tips on how to create good lines?
17:50:38  <fjb> Experience.
17:50:40  <AndreasB> One mainline going from A to B ? then sidelines supplying it?
17:50:40  <AndreasB> haha
17:50:43  <AndreasB> fjb: +1
17:51:32  * fjb usually lets it grow in an organic way.
17:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm rather in favour of wide networks instead of "narrow" trunk lines
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18:03:14  <V453000> build stuff rather small, and when it is insufficient, expand it
18:03:17  <V453000> best way to learn
18:03:26  <V453000> and the most fun way to lpay
18:11:45  <AndreasB> But I need long lines. What I usually do is find a industry not too far away just to get income
18:11:49  <AndreasB> then build longer
18:16:03  <V453000> ok, and then you connect more industries
18:16:04  <fjb> Sounds reasonable.
18:16:07  <V453000> and build more trains to that line
18:16:17  <V453000> and from a line is suddenly network
18:16:32  <AndreasB> more resources you mean
18:17:20  <V453000> industries kind of mean resources yes :)
18:18:05  <AndreasB> You bring resources to industries.
18:19:41  <V453000> k so what do you add to your network, industries or resources?
18:19:45  <V453000> either results in more trains
18:20:12  <AndreasB> not really, if you add an industry without having the resources for it :ppp
18:20:47  <V453000> ._.
18:21:00  <V453000> aha you mean industry as the consumer
18:21:30  <V453000> in openttd we call all of those things industries, calling the raw cargo producers primary industries, and the factories etc are generally called secondary industries
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18:44:11  <AndreasB> :P
18:44:15  <AndreasB> ok, you win
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18:51:42  *** mode/#openttd [+o planetmaker] by ChanServ
18:51:42  *** mode/#openttd [+v Alberth] by ChanServ
18:51:42  *** mode/#openttd [+v Belugas] by ChanServ
18:51:42  *** mode/#openttd [+v peter1138] by ChanServ
18:51:42  *** mode/#openttd [+v DorpsGek] by ChanServ
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19:02:04  <Alberth> o/
19:02:14  <Djohaal_> hey eddi, any progress with the daylenght patch?
19:04:59  <fjb> Moin Alberth
19:05:37  <Alberth> hi hi
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19:39:48  <andythenorth> hmm
19:39:57  <andythenorth> forgotten how to code autoreft :P
19:40:00  <andythenorth> nvm, the spec knows :P
19:43:02  <Supercheese> set the bitflag, make sure refit cost is zero
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19:44:36  <andythenorth> so no need for cb?
19:44:38  <andythenorth> spec says not
19:44:55  <V453000> want my hints on how to code autorefit? :P
19:45:02  <andythenorth> yarp
19:45:04  <andythenorth> love em
19:45:04  <Supercheese> if (IsBitflagSet && refit_cost == 0) then CBNotNeeded
19:45:11  <V453000> dont code autorefit. :)
19:45:15  <Supercheese> hahahaha
19:45:47  <andythenorth> V453000: is autorefit evils?
19:45:53  <V453000> 300%
19:46:11  <Supercheese> if you don't use the refit_cost callback for other reasons, you don't need to add it for autorefit
19:46:21  <V453000> I dont think there is a single feature which would make less sense, including original train acceleration
19:46:55  <andythenorth> I am agreeing, but probably for different reasons to you
19:47:13  <andythenorth> I think the implementation is...needing some love
19:47:17  * Supercheese likes it
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19:47:47  <V453000> from a reason that could be familiar to you, if the player uses X cargoes, that means he needs to treat each one nicely, separately. Having trains automatically adapt means you always play with just one cargo
19:47:52  <V453000> which is boring to say the least
19:48:06  <andythenorth> 'stuff'
19:48:13  <V453000> stuff
19:48:32  <Supercheese> Heh, "Simpleton grf", one cargo produced and accepted by every industry
19:48:33  <V453000> imagine a firs game where all cargoes are basically the same
19:48:43  <Supercheese> someone should code that :P
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19:49:29  <juzza1> it would also have wagon speed limits
19:49:32  <Djohaal_> the whole refit mechanic is unecessary gameplay lard IMO
19:49:54  <V453000> you can do refit in depots by orders -> interesting refit networks
19:50:00  <V453000> autorefit -> normal network without anything extra
19:50:08  <Djohaal_> just lard
19:50:31  <V453000> is something that adds interesting things to the game lard?
19:50:35  <Djohaal_> yes
19:50:39  <V453000> ok
19:50:42  <V453000> wont even ask for an argument
19:50:58  <andythenorth> refitting in depots smells of wee imho
19:51:01  <Djohaal_> because it can be done much more elegantly with implicit refitting. In simutrans you can have a peice goods train hauling say... plastics, electronics and finished goods to a destionation
19:51:33  <Djohaal_> or hoppers hauling coal, sand and iron ore without having to refit
19:51:40  <Djohaal_> (obviously each hopper transports only one resource)
19:51:50  <Supercheese> innit dat... autorefit?
19:52:07  <V453000> andy refit is the best solution to firs. :)
19:52:16  <Djohaal_> autorefit has some pitfalls. Say you need to have the good route to exist so cargodist can start sending goods trough that branch
19:52:20  <Djohaal_> it turns into a catch-22
19:52:32  <V453000> lol cargodist
19:52:33  <Djohaal_> plus not all GRFs implement autorefit properly
19:52:36  <V453000> competitor for best feature n2
19:52:36  <Djohaal_> V453000: stfu
19:52:48  <andythenorth> does autorefit work with cdist?
19:52:57  <andythenorth> I suspect strongly that it doesn't
19:52:59  <V453000> some newGRFs like nuts completely ignore autorefit for mentioned reasons
19:53:04  <andythenorth> in fact, I proved that it doesn't
19:53:20  <Djohaal_> andythenorth: I assume it shouldn't unless you manually run a haul first so the link graph forms
19:53:22  <V453000> cdist doesnt make sense even without autorefit :)
19:53:42  <Supercheese> ^ that
19:54:00  <andythenorth> if 'deliver cargo to stations only where there is a demand' isn't turned off, autoreft is silently borked
19:54:08  <Djohaal_> and still, if supply wobbles the graph link might disappear
19:54:40  <andythenorth> I am +0.5 to removing autorefit from the game
19:54:52  <andythenorth> despite that I had to re-enginer my entire ship set to accomodate it
19:54:54  <andythenorth>  :P
19:55:11  <Supercheese> I appreciated your work there :)
19:55:12  <V453000> just dont use it andy :)
19:55:18  <Djohaal_> it'd be a far more elegant if you could have carriages being able to carry certain "classes" of goods automatically
19:55:20  <Supercheese> FISH autorefit is very very useful
19:55:23  <Djohaal_> ie, simutrans solution
19:55:37  <V453000> go play simutrans and leave openttd alone Djohaal_ you dont have the brains for it
19:55:48  <Supercheese> keep is civil, gents
19:55:53  <andythenorth> Supercheese: tried it with cdist?
19:55:53  <Supercheese> it*
19:55:57  <V453000> is awesome
19:55:58  <Supercheese> Nein
19:56:02  <Supercheese> I don't like cdist
19:56:02  <Djohaal_> V453000: just go fuck yourself. Preferably with a 5 meter wood dildo.
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19:56:05  <V453000> :>
19:56:14  <Supercheese> Gentlemen, simmer down
19:56:19  <andythenorth> Supercheese: try cdist :P
19:56:25  <andythenorth> autorefit is borked with it :D
19:56:28  <V453000> nobody gives a fuck and I am done with him Supercheese  :)
19:56:37  <andythenorth> sunday = sweary day
19:56:38  <Belugas> Djohaal_  that is quite harsh
19:56:47  <Djohaal_> he deserves it
19:56:49  <Supercheese> andy: no thanks, I've tried cdist several times and never liked it
19:57:00  <andythenorth> still, at least our number one source of quitting is not here
19:57:06  <Belugas> nope, he did call names
19:57:26  <andythenorth> tbh, we are way to polite around here on average
19:57:33  <andythenorth> we should declare one day per month, no holds barred
19:57:39  <andythenorth> it would be fun
19:57:44  <Supercheese> seems like that's today
19:57:48  * DanMacK slaps andythenorth around a bit with a large fishbot
19:58:06  <Djohaal_> if you think the five meter wood dildo is bad I didn't even get started =p
19:58:06  <andythenorth> DanMacK: you're too nice to be rude to ;)
19:58:23  <DanMacK> lol
19:58:33  <Djohaal_> actually, append "with splinters" to it
19:58:33  <andythenorth> Djohaal_: you need to escalate more slowly, you have gone straight for the big stick :P
19:58:42  <andythenorth> a good argument takes time to build :P
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19:58:46  <Djohaal_> I like big things
19:59:04  <Supercheese> The big stick is a Rooseveltian tactic
19:59:25  <Supercheese> although likely not in the same way as was used here :P
19:59:59  <Djohaal_> I am pretty sure wood dildos weren't a thing in teddy's time
20:00:48  <andythenorth> go research some history
20:00:57  <andythenorth> probably as old as tool-making
20:01:03  <Supercheese> I'm not sure. I'd rather stay that way. :P
20:01:32  <Djohaal_> actually I recall reading some news that they found some smooth stone sex toy in germany, dated some thousands of years
20:01:36  <Supercheese> although I suspect andy is right...
20:01:42  <Djohaal_> so yeah soapstone. Seems more confortable than wood full of splinters
20:02:07  <Supercheese> you could do some empirical research ;)
20:02:11  <V453000> your knowledge is shockingly awesome
20:02:37  <andythenorth> hmm
20:02:41  <andythenorth> what is Tourists?
20:02:45  <V453000> ecs XD
20:02:49  <andythenorth> should I make pax cars autorefit to handle it?
20:02:52  <Djohaal_> I'd rather not, I'm not willing to use any material that wasn't invented in the last 4 decades for sexual toys. And somehow chat got derailed from autorefitting to sex toy material
20:03:04  <Supercheese> autorefit to the Passengers cargo class takes care of it IIRC
20:03:15  <V453000> the only derailed one is you Djohaal_ , we keep our topic
20:03:17  <andythenorth> what is this 'autorefit to class' thing?
20:03:29  <Djohaal_> derp
20:03:39  <Supercheese> well, classes handled by the refittable_cargo_classes stuff
20:03:43  <andythenorth> nah
20:03:52  <Supercheese> bitmask(CC_PASSENGERS) or whatnot
20:03:52  <andythenorth> but yeah
20:04:00  <andythenorth> covered
20:04:09  <Supercheese> should be fine to just allow autorefit then
20:04:11  <andythenorth> the autorefit cb should be removed by the way
20:04:20  <andythenorth> frosch123 ^ can I request that for future grf version?
20:04:25  <andythenorth> it's broken fundamentally
20:04:50  <frosch123> why is it broken?
20:04:52  <Supercheese> I'm not sure any grf actually imposes a refit cost and then also allows autorefit
20:05:16  <Supercheese> I think UKRS2 disallows autorefit conditionally, but doesn't impose refit cost
20:05:47  <andythenorth> frosch123: it allows player to create invalid orders
20:05:55  <andythenorth> we have no other case for newgrf controlling orders
20:05:58  <andythenorth> afaik
20:06:16  <frosch123> how do they create invaild orders?
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20:07:27  <andythenorth> player can set up a 'go to x and refit' order, which the cb can silently deny, according to arbitrary conditions
20:08:17  <frosch123> well, should create a newpaper maybe
20:08:43  <andythenorth> it would be very hard for player to figure out
20:09:23  <frosch123> there are way worse grf mechanics
20:09:30  <frosch123> which make stuff hard to players to figure out
20:09:50  <andythenorth> I think this one is too easy to accidentally include
20:10:08  <andythenorth> I can't in fact see any valid case for the autorefit cb
20:10:15  <Supercheese> I've caused the broken orders like that before
20:10:22  <Supercheese> UKRS2's denial-of-autorefit
20:10:35  <Supercheese> took me a while to figure out why cargo was piling up
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20:11:39  <andythenorth> a vehicle should either be allowed to refit to all of its refittable cargos, xor none
20:12:35  <andythenorth> hmm
20:12:41  <andythenorth> from the spec for CB15E: "Negative cost factors allow refit revenue, useful for example if refits are used to change the number of articulated parts."
20:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> for andythenorth, everything he doesn't fully understand, is broken :)
20:12:49  <frosch123> the gui filters for the autorefitable cargos
20:13:11  <frosch123> as long as your cb does not depend on time or other silly stuff, it should be fine
20:13:21  <andythenorth> digression - but htf do I even change the number of articulated parts based on refit?
20:13:26  <andythenorth> that's nonsense
20:13:41  <Eddi|zuHause> not the parts, but the "visible" parts
20:14:03  <andythenorth> still nonsense in the spec
20:14:36  <Eddi|zuHause> that half-sentence should probably not be in there
20:15:15  <andythenorth> fixed
20:15:24  <andythenorth> power of wiki :D
20:15:43  <andythenorth> I have savegames somewhere btw showing that autorefit is broken, I don't just make this crap up
20:15:48  <andythenorth> but nbm
20:15:52  <andythenorth> nvm :P
20:16:49  <andythenorth> specifically cb 15E should remain, but bit 14 should always be set
20:16:52  <andythenorth> that would solve it
20:17:08  <andythenorth> or bit 14 should be ignored by the autorefit check
20:19:26  <frosch123> night
20:19:29  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
20:19:34  <Supercheese> andy: Fake subways does the autorefit-change-parts thing
20:19:57  <Supercheese> subtype is no. of carriages
20:20:14  <Supercheese> refitting to "more carriages" costs, refitting to "less carriages" refunds
20:20:22  <Supercheese> of course, autorefit is not allowed
20:21:50  *** Guest25 is now known as Zuu
20:21:55  <andythenorth> fake vehicles ;)
20:22:09  <Supercheese> it doesn't actually change articulated parts, of course
20:22:29  <Supercheese> just changes them from invisible to visible, and their properties
20:22:31  <Eddi|zuHause> the "fake" is not the vehicles but the underground :p
20:22:48  <Supercheese> much like HEQS trams eh?
20:22:52  <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: andythenorth knows that, because HEQS works the same way
20:22:56  <Supercheese> ninja'd
20:22:58  <Supercheese> :)
20:23:00  <andythenorth> :P
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20:25:47  <Supercheese> more coffee
20:25:56  <V453000> java
20:26:32  <Supercheese> I love the java jive, and it loves me
20:33:05  *** Devroush [] has joined #openttd
20:35:48  <Supercheese> Hmm, I should sign up for US English for the OTTD web translator, there's some strings that need fixing
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20:38:53  <Supercheese> "This page is currently incomplete, but it will be finished in the very near feature."
20:38:55  <Supercheese>
20:39:05  <Supercheese> :S
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20:59:22  <V453000> :ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo nuts compiles without a single error or not refferenced message XD been a while since that
20:59:46  <DanMacK> Thats nuts!
20:59:47  <DanMacK> :P
20:59:54  <V453000> at the time the silent command line for 15 minutes feels kind of boring :|
20:59:59  <V453000> at the same time*
21:00:19  <V453000> when it was outputting errors I was at least sure it is alive :D
21:00:32  <V453000> thats not so nuts :(
21:00:52  <Supercheese> aww, nuts
21:06:02  <V453000> DanMacK: if you wanted to consult something like a table of colours for e.g. hopper cargoes, I have them somewhere :P
21:06:15  <V453000> I have basically every cargo known in ecs/firs/pikka thing
21:06:41  <V453000> so if you wanted to synchronize [or be lazy], I have recolour pixel things in my sprites prepared for sharing
21:07:05  <andythenorth> hmm
21:07:16  <andythenorth> recolour thingy o_O
21:07:22  <V453000> not recolour sprites
21:07:23  <V453000> .
21:07:24  <V453000> :)
21:07:28  <V453000> just pixel tables
21:07:33  <andythenorth> ok
21:07:45  <andythenorth> I could automate those in the compile...
21:07:48  <V453000> also from what I understood, recolour sprites prevent you from using CC1 and CC2
21:07:50  <V453000> which is ass
21:08:43  <andythenorth> yup
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21:09:20  <V453000> either way, if you wanted that, I have it ready ... better ask me though because I have many of them in many files and vast majority of them arent "latestů
21:09:23  <V453000> "latest"
21:09:25  <DanMacK> lmao
21:09:39  <DanMacK> I planned to pilfer from CHIPS
21:10:01  <V453000> chips has the piles quite ugly tbh :|
21:10:13  <andythenorth> I am not loving chips piles
21:10:16  <andythenorth> they match HEQS
21:10:23  <andythenorth> I am not loving HEQS cargo colours
21:10:25  <Supercheese> Yeah, I prefer ISR piles of stuff over CHIPS piles of stuff
21:10:40  <DanMacK> well, its only a few pixels for hoppers
21:10:52  <andythenorth> I could fix chips if someone could just do it for me :P
21:10:56  <V453000> make it a lot of pixels to make it nice :)
21:11:06  <Supercheese> ISR is GPL... :D
21:11:15  <DanMacK> heh
21:11:41  <andythenorth> ISR piles aren't nice
21:11:51  <andythenorth> they don't fit one tile iirc
21:11:56  <V453000>
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21:13:40  <DanMacK> V453000, I think I'll use some of that if you don't mind
21:13:51  <V453000> I absolutely dont
21:14:13  <V453000> that is why I suggested them
21:17:44  <V453000> anyway. good night
21:17:57  <V453000> ps note that it also matters how you draw the things :P colours wont do everything
21:18:14  <V453000> I have many hopper wagons in my repository, you could even copypaste some heaps if you want
21:18:38  <V453000> if you need smaller ones, some medium loading stages might have those
21:19:07  <V453000> esp
21:19:10  <V453000> bai
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21:23:30  <Supercheese> I'm seeing a lot of conflicts between en_GB and en_US translations regarding {STRING2} vs. {STRING} vs. {RAW_STRING}
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21:24:33  <Supercheese> Perhaps the code changed at some point and the en_US translation was never changed to match?
21:24:42  <Supercheese> string-drawing code, that is
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22:00:10  <Wolf01> 'night
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