Log for #openttd on 15th October 2013:
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06:44:56  <dihedral> good morning
06:45:11  <Supercheese> good midnight
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07:50:01  <Taede> moin
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08:07:23  <planetmaker> moin
08:15:16  <V453000> heyo
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12:24:53  <DanMacK> Hey all
12:26:31  <scshunt> hi
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12:58:28  <Belugas> hello
12:59:03  <V453000> moo
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15:01:17  <DanMacK> o/
15:05:28  <planetmaker> \o
15:06:12  * planetmaker ponders introducing a new object property: amount placed upon map generation on a 256^2 map
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17:36:46  <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
17:36:46  <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 21 hours, 40 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <andythenorth> found it
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17:52:16  <Wolf01> evenink
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17:53:18  <Alberth> hihi
17:54:47  <frosch123> moin
17:57:33  <planetmaker> moin
18:00:58  <zydeco> greetings
18:08:56  * Belugas wants an EBow
18:09:01  <Belugas> hem...  oops...
18:09:04  <Belugas> sorry
18:09:12  <peter1138> :-)
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18:09:32  <frosch123> an e-bow?
18:09:41  <frosch123> can you should people on the internet with that?
18:09:51  <peter1138> Should them, yes.
18:10:20  <frosch123> s/uld/ot/ :s
18:10:21  <Belugas> i should shout some sholders
18:10:28  <Belugas> shoot
18:10:31  <Belugas> shit!
18:10:44  <frosch123> hard word
18:18:51  <frosch123> i know a topic V could derail :)
18:21:57  <Belugas> :)
18:23:11  <V453000> I am derailed alllll the time
18:23:36  <Belugas> get on your tracks!
18:23:46  * Belugas does not say what type of tracks...
18:23:48  <Belugas> hohoh
18:24:17  <V453000> :)
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18:49:11  * Supercheese would use a newobject property to place objects on map randomly, seagulls by default
18:49:46  <Supercheese> might also be nice to have some sort of callback or method to tell them to be placed near things like industries or towns
18:50:04  <Supercheese> for a pony wish :)
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18:51:11  * Belugas wonders... seeing a seagull in gme would mean it's a freaking big whale of a bird!
18:51:40  <andythenorth> self-building new objects? o_O
18:51:54  <Supercheese> at map gen, planetmaker mentioned it earlier
18:51:56  <andythenorth> fuck the GS route, it's an inadequate way to do it
18:52:00  <Supercheese> as a pondering
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18:52:08  <andythenorth> nah, needs to be on the monthly cb
18:52:10  <andythenorth> the / a
18:52:28  <Pinkbeast> Seagulls would be a nice ambient noise
18:52:48  <Supercheese> Been there; done that
18:52:51  <Supercheese> ;)
18:52:57  <Pinkbeast> ... but I guess the fishing harbour could just make the noise directly and now you can tell me it already does.
18:53:14  <Supercheese>
18:53:22  <Supercheese> also:
18:54:48  <andythenorth> grfcrawler must die :x
18:57:46  <frosch123> Supercheese: you have to decide for generation order, either industries or objects first :)
18:57:55  <frosch123> towns are definitely first though
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19:03:57  <planetmaker> objects are not game crucial. last. As now
19:05:11  *** au [] has joined #openttd
19:05:21  <au> hi, how to load a script ? :)
19:05:28  <planetmaker> I have a rather quick hack... - but not suitable yet :-)
19:06:17  <andythenorth> is there a reason (I haven't thought of) that it has to be map-gen time, and not in the gameplay loop somewhere?
19:06:19  <planetmaker> au, from main menu: script / ai settings. Then generate a new map
19:06:47  <au> planetmaker: I mean in a console. exec script.scr makes ERROR: script file not found
19:06:51  <planetmaker> andythenorth, there's no reason. But ... map generation makes sense, no?
19:07:20  <au> planetmaker: even though pwd shows the directory is the right one and the file is present
19:08:21  <andythenorth> planetmaker: couple of thoughts (1) landscape evolving over time is interesting (2) industries open (and close)
19:08:40  <andythenorth> I missed some of the discussion, but I assume that objects would be able to try and locate near [something] ?
19:10:00  <planetmaker> andythenorth, objects have the usual capabilities. Up to the newgrf author
19:10:38  * andythenorth should read the spec :P
19:10:51  <planetmaker> au, did you try w/o file extension?
19:12:30  <au> planetmaker: yes, and funny to say ls doesn't show anything too :O
19:12:52  * andythenorth is interested in the age-old pony "extra stuff around FIRS industries"
19:13:00  <andythenorth> objects seems like the cleanest solution to that
19:13:23  <andythenorth> and giving industries the capability to build objects seems a bit unclean
19:13:51  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I think that should rather be an extension of the field idea :)
19:14:05  <andythenorth> is the field idea resurrected?
19:14:13  <andythenorth> last I knew, it was considered very dead
19:14:40  <planetmaker> well, no. But industries spawning objects, or objects checking for industry XY is... strange imho
19:14:57  <andythenorth> practical though...
19:15:04  <planetmaker> and imho it wasn't exactly shot dead. Rather died due to insufficient food supply
19:15:12  <andythenorth> frosch123 thoughts? o_O
19:16:29  <frosch123> i think industries spawning objects would be a cool thing
19:16:41  <frosch123> mostly for extracting industries
19:16:55  <frosch123> destroying the nature around them
19:17:01  <frosch123> and leaving pits behind
19:18:31  <planetmaker> hm. seen that way... maybe a good idea :-)
19:18:53  <andythenorth> can objects self-destroy? o_O
19:18:56  <frosch123> it's different from traditional fields though
19:18:58  * andythenorth assumes not
19:19:06  <planetmaker> not necessarily much different
19:19:15  <planetmaker> depends on the object
19:19:22  <frosch123> most weird is how players clear those things
19:19:25  <frosch123> per tile or as whole
19:20:06  <andythenorth> as a whole I guess
19:20:23  <frosch123> hmm, one could also allow spawning objects on destruction
19:20:42  <frosch123> like leaving a crater behind :p
19:20:49  <frosch123> unremoveable :p
19:20:51  <planetmaker> right. you got me convinced :-)
19:21:13  <frosch123> anyway, might as well grow out of hand :p
19:21:31  <andythenorth> so how does it work?  Specific cb?  Or modify existing cbs to also allow spawning an object as part of result? o_O
19:21:32  <frosch123> if half of the map is covered with busted nuclear plants after 500 game years
19:21:47  <frosch123> i think there is a wiki page with a draft about it
19:21:58  <andythenorth> somewhere on froschwiki :P
19:22:14  <au> why does loading files from console doesn't work? :( is it a bug?
19:22:21  <frosch123> i think it's on the post-grf-v8-new-cb-results page
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19:22:55  <planetmaker> au, might be that they must be in the scripts dir
19:23:03  <planetmaker> is yours there and has the extension scr?
19:23:14  <au> planetmaker: which is a script dir?
19:23:46  <planetmaker> eh. The one where the example / default scripts are placed in?
19:23:54  <planetmaker> relative to your binary
19:25:34  <au> I run a binary from a compiled version
19:26:13  <planetmaker> well. Without compilation there's no binary.
19:26:53  <au> anyway, when I do ls in that directory, it shows it's empty :O
19:27:11  <au> it shows directories only, not files
19:27:42  <planetmaker> ?
19:28:19  <planetmaker> you know, currently I can only speculate as of your setup. Not a good thing. Nothing I fancy
19:29:13  <au> I made no setup changes at all
19:30:08  <frosch123> oh, there are pcs with preinstalled ottd?
19:30:17  <planetmaker> ... good. Still my crystal ball fails to show what your setup looks like
19:30:51  <au> you mean openttd.cfg?
19:31:14  <Alberth>     and section 4.2 would be useful too
19:31:19  <planetmaker> OpenTTD version. OS version. place of config file. place of binary (did you use installer or downloaded it?)
19:32:13  <planetmaker> command you use to call openttd. command you tried in order to have your script executed
19:32:33  <au> 1.3.2 linux, I compiled it, bin is /home/au/tmp/original/bin/openttd
19:32:52  <au> config is ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg
19:33:52  <au> command to run openttd: just ./openttd ;)
19:34:08  <planetmaker> so your script is in ~/tmp/original/bin/script ?
19:34:09  <au> and trying to execute the script via exec in console
19:34:46  <planetmaker> how exactly?
19:35:54  <au> my script is ~/tmp/original/bin/script/aaa.scr
19:36:10  <au> my script is ~/tmp/np2/original/bin/script/aaa.scr to be correct
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19:36:40  <au> I did cd to the ~/tmp/np2/original/bin/script directory
19:36:49  <au> pwd to confirm it's the right one
19:37:05  <au> exec aaa.scr
19:37:18  <au> ERROR: script not found
19:37:27  <au> actually script file not found
19:38:13  <planetmaker> so... did you try to place it in ~/tmp/original/bin/script/aaa.scr ?
19:38:26  <au> when I do ls command it shows only "0)..(Parent dictionary)" even though there is 12 files
19:38:47  <au> planetmaker: it is exactly there
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19:41:16  <DanMacK> grrr
19:43:17  <planetmaker> I've no clue with what you mean that it's there and not there
19:43:45  <au> look:
19:45:37  <planetmaker> did you simply try "exec aaa"?
19:46:00  <au> yes, it's the same
19:46:15  <au> - here you see that the file is really there in that dictionary
19:48:42  <au> again.. ls shows no files even though there are some.. so a bug????
19:52:12  <planetmaker> as said: try to place the file in the dir scripts are meant to be. Not something else which you need to cd into
19:52:42  <planetmaker> But honestly, I don't know. I guess I hardly ever use a script except a slight default one on player join
19:52:55  <planetmaker> which needs no manual execution
19:54:19  <au> the bad thing is these things are very poorly documented
19:55:20  <planetmaker> ask in the forums
19:55:34  <planetmaker> maybe someone uses them and knows
19:55:46  <au> when I run a new instance, the first pwd is ~/.openttd/save so is this one the deffault dictionary?
19:55:51  <frosch123> i think these scripts are unchanged since version 0.4
19:56:06  <frosch123> so, no active developer knows about them :)
19:56:50  <planetmaker> yeah :-P
19:56:51  <au> well I just wanna find out how to let ai play instead of me in a multiplayer.. lol.. thought this was thrugh these scripts
19:57:11  <planetmaker> well. That is something which we specifically do NOT support
19:57:47  <planetmaker> scripts acting in a human company in multiplayer
19:58:02  <Sturmi> stupid ai or stupid human player... where is the difference? :D
19:58:17  <planetmaker> AIs don't feel ashamed to be stupid
19:58:23  <planetmaker> nor mind being told so :-P
19:58:37  <Sturmi> good point :D
19:59:03  <au> can't I program AI to be really good? :O
19:59:17  <planetmaker> sure you can
19:59:42  <au> so I just wanna test it against real players
19:59:47  <planetmaker> but most AIs can be beaten economically
20:00:03  <planetmaker> au, yes... but you don't want those scripts for that
20:00:11  <planetmaker> start a multiplayer server and start an AI there
20:00:31  <planetmaker> an AI player cann noever be run via those kind of scripts you try to run there
20:00:35  <au> planetmaker: I wanted to do this on an already existing server
20:00:37  <planetmaker> those scripts have no such capability
20:00:44  <planetmaker> yes... start_ai
20:00:54  <Alberth> it's much more productive to publish the AI and let people play against it in single player, I think
20:01:16  <planetmaker> oh, as admin you can run them on a server just fine, too
20:01:24  <planetmaker> though... I don't know anyone doing that
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20:02:46  <au> is it possible to let ai do city building and huge railline nets? if so, it should deffinitly be better than human players
20:03:03  <planetmaker> what's "city building"?
20:03:21  <planetmaker> AIs can (or should be able) to do what a human player can do. Not more. Not less
20:03:36  <planetmaker> No cheating.
20:03:45  <au> let a city grow on purpose..
20:04:00  <planetmaker> sure, why not.
20:04:57  <planetmaker> it's up to you what you tell the AI to do
20:05:31  <planetmaker> There's a couple of different one. with different focus...
20:06:01  <planetmaker> probably you can make a very decent one, if you do not re-invent the wheel everywhere, but if you build on what others have invented before. And improve that
20:06:48  <au> just simulate the behaviour of human players would be enough, I think
20:07:01  <au> of the best human players, of course
20:07:17  <Supercheese> how do you quantify "best"?
20:07:32  <planetmaker> :-) the usual question
20:07:49  <planetmaker> a very important one
20:08:09  <au> there's a 15 bilion server on btpro.. I wanna write AI that would beat the best human player so far
20:08:59  <au> that should be possible if the AI builds fast
20:10:34  <planetmaker> difficulty increases for AIs if playing against humans. Competition can be strong :-)
20:11:06  <au> that's why I wanna let it play instead of a user :P
20:11:21  <planetmaker> yes, on your own server: well feasible
20:11:28  <planetmaker> on others: it's not
20:11:48  <planetmaker> or only with rcon rights
20:11:52  <au> but why not on others? .. not for cheating, only for experimentation
20:12:00  <planetmaker> where's the difference?
20:12:09  <planetmaker> it's cheating if I play against you + your script
20:12:35  <au> if you play against the script and you know it, is it cheating?
20:12:51  <planetmaker> doing that on another server, no-one would know it.
20:13:30  <au> they would know if I told them ;)
20:13:57  <planetmaker> iff. Sorry.
20:14:16  <Sturmi> make your own server and invite players to compete against your ai.
20:14:17  <planetmaker> I'd perma-ban a person who tried on my servers
20:14:24  <Sturmi> +1
20:14:32  <au> lol
20:15:53  <planetmaker> scripts in human companies are general a fun killer. There'd be nothing to stop people using them for whatever. Then the people with the better script have an advantage. That's not fair. However you make it
20:16:00  <planetmaker> so no scripts in human companies
20:17:01  <planetmaker> that was discussed in great length when the current AI framework was implemented
20:18:09  <au> I guess this is like saying that all drivers in Formula 1 should have the same cars so that richer teams are not in advantage ;)
20:18:56  <Sturmi> cant compare it like this
20:19:26  <planetmaker> as said: you're free to run an AI on your server or servers where you have rcon. In their own company
20:19:33  <planetmaker> which everyone will be able to see as AI company
20:20:03  <planetmaker> it's not that it's unfair or anything. It's fair competition
20:20:36  <au> I'd just make a competition where any scripts whatsoever are allowed ;)
20:20:46  <planetmaker> boring
20:20:58  <planetmaker> make a competition AI vs AIs.
20:21:06  <planetmaker> there's also various such threads in our forums
20:21:14  <planetmaker> they can be quite interesting
20:21:27  <au> no it's not boring, building lots and lots of lines manually is boring
20:21:28  <Sturmi> reminds me of the movie "war games" :D
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20:22:04  <planetmaker> so, play the AI game. Publish your AI. Make others play with it. You'll then get feedback on how it performs
20:22:22  <au> ok we'll see, give me few months ;)
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20:23:14  <au> gn
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21:01:09  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, kamnet has found the magic of animated gifs
21:03:05  <andythenorth> :P
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21:24:37  <bon> hi
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21:43:16  <Zuu> au: Welcome to AI development, there is quite a bit written on the subjcet on the wiki:  ;-)
21:47:27  <Wolf01> 'night all
21:47:31  <Xaroth|Work> nn
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21:48:08  <bon> hi zuu and xaroth
21:48:36  <Zuu> hi bon
21:49:25  <bon> how doing?
21:49:40  <Eddi|zuHause> "Hans Riegel, founder of Haribo died aged 90"
21:51:31  <Zuu> good night
21:51:45  <bon> bye zuu
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22:08:54  <frosch123> night
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23:01:36  <planetmaker> so... object placement on map creation? :D
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23:06:11  <planetmaker> for those who want to test:
23:10:18  <Supercheese> ah, interesting
23:13:11  <Supercheese> Just randomly places them, no way to tell objects to be near things?
23:13:19  *** Riaku [] has joined #openttd
23:13:53  <Riaku> ok, probably a stupid newbie question, but how cna you install mods on a dedicated server? been fooling around with this for a few days, and any mention of manual install tells me to use a gui... not so manual
23:14:19  <planetmaker> Supercheese, the normal placement callback is used. So the usual placement rules apply
23:14:39  <planetmaker> thus make it what it should be. Your task :-P
23:15:01  <planetmaker> Riaku, rcon content is your friend
23:15:49  <planetmaker> Riaku, did in a few days not cross your mind to have a look at the wiki?
23:16:19  <Riaku> yup, i discovered the content command
23:16:26  <Riaku> ended up installing everything :/
23:16:35  <planetmaker> could be worse
23:16:42  <Riaku> oh im nto worried about that.
23:16:44  <planetmaker> and is easiest
23:16:45  <Riaku> not*
23:16:57  *** Supercheese_ [~Superchee@] has joined #openttd
23:17:16  <Riaku> > content download all
23:17:20  <Riaku> > content select all
23:17:32  <Supercheese_> Internet asploded
23:17:32  <Riaku> that's about as far as i get
23:18:23  <planetmaker> Supercheese, the normal placement callback is used. So the usual placement rules apply. You define via NewGRF where things can be placed (if you should have missed the comment)
23:18:46  <planetmaker> Riaku, single downloads work by using content select ID. And content state is helpful to define which
23:18:58  <planetmaker> and before that a content update
23:19:40  <planetmaker> but really, on a dedi server... just content update; content select all; content download. easy. simple
23:19:42  <Supercheese_> Object var 44 (owner) should allow me to distinguish between a player placing an object vs. the map gen placing the object, right?
23:19:46  <planetmaker> unless bandwidth is a problem
23:19:51  <Riaku> i get the downloads, but enabling an actual mod, i am lost with, i've attempted editing "a" config file, (apparently on debian, running a server as root won't generate a config file in the root directory, not sure where it pulls things from
23:20:00  <planetmaker> Supercheese, yes
23:20:11  <Riaku> so i've been directing it with ./openttd -D -c openttd.cfg
23:20:15  <Supercheese_> Righto, think I know what to do
23:20:30  <planetmaker> oh, don't run openttd as root. Or anything :-)
23:20:43  <Riaku> i get that's a bad idea... but damn >.> no config
23:20:43  <planetmaker> Supercheese, but not yet in trunk, so... :-)
23:21:08  <planetmaker> Riaku, ~/.openttd/openttd.cfg is only generated when you exit openttd
23:21:21  <Riaku> exited it many times :p
23:21:39  <planetmaker> root... might create it next to the binary. which might be bad
23:22:06  <planetmaker> what does 'locate openttd.cfg' tell you?
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23:22:33  *** Supercheese_ is now known as Supercheese
23:22:35  * Riaku facepalms
23:22:39  <Riaku> ls -a
23:23:00  <Riaku> actually.. view hidden lol
23:23:09  <Riaku> .openttd, didn't realise it was hidden
23:23:16  <planetmaker> anyway... do yourself the favour, create a non-root user. And use that
23:23:47  <planetmaker> configuring games on a dedicated server... yes, edit openttd.cfg. But much easier to upload a savegame and start that
23:23:47  <Riaku> yeah. i know, im just lazy, set this up for a few friends
23:24:16  <planetmaker> a lazyness you might pay a very high price for...
23:24:23  <planetmaker> setting up a user is cheap and quick
23:24:40  <Riaku> yup :3
23:24:50  <Riaku> debian's adduser :p
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23:25:49  <planetmaker> useradd -d -D -m --passwordPASSWORD
23:25:50  <planetmaker> done
23:26:08  <planetmaker> maybe also --shell/bin/bash
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