Log for #openttd on 29th October 2013:
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00:16:18  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> hmm, photographed only three weeks ago <-- yeah, i think there are like 3 operational ones left
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02:34:50  <LeandroL> hello everybody
02:35:33  <LeandroL> i've left a game running for the past day or so and no my surprise, I'm being charged with interest in the millions, but my loan has been fully paid off literally centuries ago
02:35:45  <LeandroL> here's a screenshot:
02:35:46  <LeandroL>
02:35:50  <LeandroL> is this a bug?
02:36:11  <LeandroL> i'm running openttd version 1.3.2
02:37:34  <Markk> LeandroL: That's because you're on minus.
02:37:45  <LeandroL> what do you mean?
02:38:04  <Markk> You see that your bank balance are on minus, ye?
02:38:10  <LeandroL> yeah
02:38:21  <LeandroL> having a negative bank balance produces negative interest?
02:38:24  <Markk> That's why you're getting quite an interest.
02:38:29  <Markk> Yes
02:38:35  <LeandroL> i thought you only got interest from your loan
02:38:54  <LeandroL> it obviously makes sense that you have to pay for running on a negative bank balance somehow
02:38:58  <Markk> You're borrowing the money requeried to pay for your trains and infrastructure from the bank.
02:39:01  <Markk> Like in real life.
02:39:04  <LeandroL> yeah
02:39:06  <LeandroL> implicitly
02:39:13  <Markk> So no, it's not a bug.
02:39:19  <LeandroL> thanks for the insight
02:39:20  <Markk> You don't earn enough money.
02:39:24  <Markk> :)
02:39:29  <Markk> No problem.
02:39:36  <LeandroL> at this point there's no way to go back to positive figures, right?
02:39:44  <Japa> Not likely, no.
02:39:57  <Japa> Since the max loan is less than your debt.
02:39:59  <Markk> I'm surprised that you aren't bankrupt yet.
02:40:05  <LeandroL> can you go bankrupt?
02:40:14  <Japa> You could try to sell all your trains or something, maybe
02:40:16  <LeandroL> when and how does that happen?
02:40:27  <LeandroL> i only have two trains and like 10 bus stations with 1 bus each
02:40:34  <Markk> haha
02:40:37  <LeandroL> i was running an experiment on city growth
02:40:38  <Markk> Yeah, there's no change.
02:40:39  <Markk> chanse*
02:40:50  <Markk> chance*
02:40:52  <Markk> Even
02:41:02  <LeandroL> 5 stations  per city and just a couple trains to boost my economy initially and make enough money to build a road grid to speed up city growth
02:41:15  <LeandroL> i forgot about it and left the experiment running overnight
02:41:30  <LeandroL> and i came home to a negative bank balance well into the billions
02:41:36  <Japa> Cargodist is great for single-city games.
02:42:55  <LeandroL> here's a whole map screenshot, in case anyone is interested
02:42:56  <LeandroL>
02:43:00  <LeandroL> it's a 64x64 map
02:48:24  <Eddi|zuHause> <Markk> I'm surprised that you aren't bankrupt yet. <-- you can only go bankrupt in multiplayer
02:49:57  <LeandroL> Eddi|zuHause: that makes sense, thanks
02:50:32  <LeandroL> ok, different question
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02:50:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and in single player there's the money cheat
02:50:49  <Markk> Eddi|zuHause: That's what I thought.
02:50:59  <LeandroL> i've seen there's an autorenew feature that replaces old vehicles with new ones of the same model
02:51:12  <LeandroL> but, is there an autoreplace feature?
02:51:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
02:51:25  <LeandroL> something that periodically replaces my vehicles with newer models
02:51:50  <LeandroL> i'm tired of having to replace my old steam locomotives with newer diesel ones by hand
02:51:57  <Eddi|zuHause> in the vehicle list. use the manage list dropdown
02:52:14  <LeandroL> yeah but i mean, i don't want to do that every few hours
02:52:25  <LeandroL> i want to let the game run for days without human intervention
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02:52:53  <LeandroL> after a while the old vehicles become unavailable and so the autorenew feature stops working
02:54:14  <LeandroL> am i explaining myself well?
03:03:40  <Eddi|zuHause> ah. so you want to set a rule before the vehicles become available
03:03:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess nobody ever felt the need to do that
03:04:06  <Eddi|zuHause> so it's not implemented
03:04:33  <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't it be easier to just start in 2050 and use the latest vehicle only?
03:12:07  <LeandroL> i found a configuration parameter that makes vehicles be available forever
03:12:54  <LeandroL> it's not exactly what i wanted but it's probably good enough to keep the income stable over a few centuries without manual intervention
03:15:25  <Eddi|zuHause> while at it, also turn inflation off :)
03:17:22  <LeandroL> i'm tempted to, but i'd like to keep the settings as close to the default set as possible
03:18:19  <LeandroL> you're probably right though, eventually the inflated prices will surpass the income generated from the transports
03:18:30  <LeandroL> unless the income also increases with inflation?
03:23:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it does, but at a slower rate
03:23:16  <Eddi|zuHause> after 170 years, they're around factor 5 apart
03:24:41  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no possible way you're going to be able to counter that effect without manual interference
03:25:36  <Eddi|zuHause> like discontinuing short, unprofitable routes
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11:31:27  <kero> Is there a way to launch openttd using an alternative .openttd-whatever repository ?
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11:59:09  <planetmaker> kero, what do you mean?
11:59:33  <planetmaker> you can check out openttd sources from whatever repo you feel comfortable to trust and compile that
11:59:35  <kero> well when I launch openttd, it uses and search files in my ~/.openttd
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11:59:55  <planetmaker> it uses the files in all paths as outlined in section 4.2
11:59:56  <kero> I was wondering if it can use another repository
12:00:14  <planetmaker> I'd not call file system paths repository though :-)
12:00:50  <planetmaker> you cannot configure the default paths other than at compile time
12:00:58  <kero> ok
12:01:03  <MNIM-zZz> 0.o
12:01:10  <planetmaker> you can force it to use the ones local to your binary, if you put a config file next to it
12:01:11  <MNIM-zZz> wait, seriously, planetmaker?
12:01:26  <planetmaker> MNIM-zZz, read section 4 of the readme please
12:01:50  <MNIM-zZz> would've thought the data folder would be less hardcoded.
12:01:51  <kero> I was meaning changing repository on the fly
12:02:02  <MNIM-zZz> also, readme? hehehehehe ;)
12:02:02  <kero> an option a little bit like the -c for config file
12:02:05  <planetmaker> you hardly can configure the config path in a config file - how should it find it otherwise in a non-default place, MNIM-zZz ?
12:02:56  <MNIM-zZz> ...huh. valid point
12:04:00  <planetmaker> kero, as you're on linux you could nicely make use of symlinks, though ;-)
12:04:36  <kero> that's anyway what I do atm :)
12:04:53  <planetmaker> kero, thus what I do, I usually want the reverse: specific config file per server which share the newgrf, ai and base set dirs:
12:05:31  <planetmaker> I put the cfg next to the binary. And symlink the newgrf, ai content_download, game and baseset dirs to their counterparts in ~/.openttd
12:06:11  <planetmaker> thus any download from the server with its individual config file lands in the general-use content-download dir
12:08:31  <planetmaker> but what problem do you try to solve, kero ?
12:10:19  <kero> I wouldn't speak about a problem. Sometimes I wan't to launch openttd completely vanilla, without config changes/newgrf, to check things
12:11:11  <kero> specially because I don't wan't my openttd.cfg file being changed while I try things
12:14:12  <Eddi|zuHause> kero: try the "-c" option to specify the location of the config file, then it should use paths relative to that location
12:15:18  <kero> I already tried, but I doesn't really works. It also loads things in the original ~/.openttd
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12:20:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it wouldn't _save_ them there
12:20:24  <kero> true
12:25:07  <peter1138> Have we not switched to XDG paths yet?
12:30:31  <Rubidium> is that part of systemd? ;)
12:30:43  <peter1138> ... no.
12:31:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i know that we used xdg open for launching the browser, but otherwise i have no clue
12:32:59  <Eddi|zuHause> kero: if you're worried about "generic" stuff slipping in, don't have an .openttd directory at all, but use the -c option for all instances
12:33:34  <peter1138> Well, as we still use .openttd, that's a no :-)
12:34:57  <kero> Eddi|zuHause : indeed, i'll maybee to that
12:36:01  <kero> Now: it's not as if it was a great deal. I was just wondering if the possibility existed to specify the directory path.
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12:38:09  <zydeco> greetings, comrades
12:39:34  <Eddi|zuHause>
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13:05:38  <Eddi|zuHause> kero: well the other solution would be to run them as different users :)
13:08:16  <kero> for sure !
13:08:38  <kero> in french we would call that kind of solution "tuer une mouche avec un bazooka"
13:08:42  <kero> :)
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13:11:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd assume that means the same as "mit kanonen auf spatzen schießen" :p
13:11:32  <kero> just that
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14:11:12  <Belugas> hello
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17:11:48  <alluke> swedish houses set lacks big stone houses in early years
17:12:21  <planetmaker> did you draw them?
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17:18:09  <alluke> nope
17:18:16  <alluke> but they seem to appear too late
17:18:34  <alluke> those existed already in 1800s
17:18:50  <alluke> its 1925 and all houses are small ones in the suburbs
17:19:02  <alluke> city centrums are all empty
17:20:57  <alluke>
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18:30:40  <Sacro> Anyone here code Python?
18:30:55  <V453000> no
18:31:25  <frosch123> python is likely the most popular language in this channel
18:31:46  <frosch123> though it's hard to rate against c++ considernig all the idlers :p
18:31:53  <V453000> what, even people who dont know what python is hate it around here
18:31:55  <V453000> <-
18:31:56  <V453000> :D
18:32:18  <frosch123> V453000: python is the language, nml is written in. no python, no nuts, ok?
18:32:31  <V453000> not ok! :D
18:32:46  <Sacro> I'm trying to move some classes into modules, but the class inherites from a variable decalred from an ORM
18:32:53  <Sacro> I'm unable to figure out just how this works ><
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18:39:57  <Alberth> moin
18:40:31  <Sacro> sigh
18:41:08  <Alberth> have a cookie!
18:41:17  <V453000> NO.
18:41:54  <LordAro> D:
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18:49:25  <Sacro> my head hurts
18:49:29  <Sacro> I don't get Python :(
18:49:35  <Wolf01> o/
18:49:43  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
18:50:14  <Alberth> Sacro: what's the problem?
18:50:28  <planetmaker> moin
18:50:54  <Sacro> so I declare global db
18:50:54  <Sacro> db = Database('sqlite', 'cifimporter.sqlite', create_db=True)
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18:50:56  <Alberth> hi hi
18:51:00  <Sacro> not global, sorry
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18:51:29  <Sacro> and then I can define class foo(db.Entity): ...
18:52:08  <Sacro> however I want to move these classes into seperate files
18:52:20  <Sacro> but I need to pass the db ... poi nter to them
18:52:35  <Sacro> also I'm getting stupid amounts of packet loss over wifi
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18:54:49  <Alberth> make a global db in one file, then import that in the file of class foo
18:55:20  <Sacro> I tried that
18:55:34  <Sacro> I think
18:55:39  <Sacro> I put global db in both files
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18:56:18  <Alberth> you need 1 db, unless you want two dbs, of course
18:56:59  <Alberth>  db = ....   import a    class foo(a.db.Entity): ...
18:58:15  <Sacro> Doesn't then that couple foo to a?
18:58:45  <Sacro> this is why I don't code ><
18:59:15  <Alberth> it is coupled, isn't it?  foo is a derived class from a.db.Entity
19:01:24  <Sacro> Well, I wanted to have all my ORM classes in seperate files
19:01:53  <Sacro> if I have to pass the calling class then that makes it rather pointless
19:02:19  <Alberth> Python is not Java; it's fine to have classes that belong together in one file
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19:03:10  <frosch123> @seen zuu
19:03:10  <DorpsGek> frosch123: zuu was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 0 days, 20 hours, 53 minutes, and 14 seconds ago: <Zuu> hello
19:03:19  <LordAro> :(
19:03:44  <Sacro> Alberth: yes but it was more so I could easily bring them all togeher
19:04:59  <Sacro> so why does 'from foo import bar' fai
19:05:00  <Sacro> l
19:05:05  <Sacro> but 'import' works
19:07:38  <Alberth> the last time I checked, Python recommended to use full package paths, ie from the root of the package.
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19:07:56  <Alberth> could that be an issue here?
19:08:21  <Alberth> there were ideas to make it more flexible, but I didn't check what was eventually changed
19:08:26  <Sacro> I have no idea
19:09:42  <Alberth> it may also depend on how you use the imported module
19:09:58  <Alberth> in the former, you have "bar" but not "foo"
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19:35:21  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25930 /trunk/src/lang (english_US.txt italian.txt) (2013-10-29 18:45:14 UTC)
19:35:22  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:35:23  <DorpsGek> english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
19:35:24  <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
19:38:38  <Eddi|zuHause> <Sacro> so why does 'from foo import bar' fai <-- that only works if foo/ contains "import bar"
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20:08:35  <LordAro> say, this looks fun:
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20:24:16  <andythenorth> I do enjoy this thread
20:24:24  <andythenorth> "OpenTTD is basically no good" :)
20:24:43  <V453000> the 552 or 2158th edition?
20:24:54  <andythenorth> hmm
20:24:57  <andythenorth> let me think
20:26:27  <andythenorth> both
20:26:55  <andythenorth> thread is here btw
20:27:45  <andythenorth> what we really need is a way to level up
20:27:50  <andythenorth> and two forms of in-game currency
20:27:51  <Pinkbeast> I'm not sure anything has _changed_ to make it easier...
20:28:01  <andythenorth> one of which can only be obtained by buying it from us for real money
20:28:08  <andythenorth> and experience points
20:28:23  <andythenorth> and mini-challenges that unlock bonus items
20:28:36  * andythenorth has been exposed to too many casual games with in-game purchases recently :P
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20:30:08  <Eddi|zuHause> there were lots of changes that made the game "easier"
20:31:04  <Alberth> reduce mapsize back to 256 x 256 ?
20:31:35  <V453000> not worth bothering with these threads anymore :D
20:32:03  <V453000> also you need to be able to shoot people in the game
20:32:09  <V453000> otherwise its just sub par
20:32:30  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I found the most interesting thing that the person argues with difficulty levels which don't exist anymore for quite some time :-)
20:33:14  <V453000> (:
20:33:16  <planetmaker> Pinkbeast, try to make money on a 64^2, a 256^2 and a 1024^2 map :-)
20:34:13  <Pinkbeast> On a 64^2 one can make enough money to connect every industry and town and transport all their cargo (that vehicle speed will permit rating to allow) and terraform the whole map to a pancake... what would you _do_ with more?
20:34:48  <andythenorth> it's such a spurious issue anyway :P
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20:34:57  <Pinkbeast> I mean, I think using earning money as an insight into difficulty only matters when there's something to buy (or if, Simutrans-style, you might go bankrupt).
20:35:57  <andythenorth> it's intriguing: many of the suggestions for make it harder revolve around 'make it a more realistic simulation'
20:36:11  <andythenorth> because, fuck yeah, reality has such great gameplay :P
20:36:17  <V453000> those threads should actively be trolled by andythenorth I feel like
20:36:27  <andythenorth> I am in a trolly mood
20:36:33  <V453000> for a change
20:36:36  <andythenorth> I did some epic Lego trolling this week
20:36:40  <V453000> :D
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20:37:07  <andythenorth>
20:37:56  <V453000> wat
20:39:25  <andythenorth> so anyway
20:39:44  <andythenorth> the casual games I've been playing are stuff like Pocket Trains and Dragon City
20:39:58  <andythenorth> they are really beautiful, really nice sound effects, and really addictive
20:40:12  <planetmaker> and really expensive pay2win
20:40:12  <andythenorth> but they are free-to-download.  The business model is in-app purchases
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20:40:31  <andythenorth> so all the 'gameplay' is really tedious menial tasks, with loooong time delays
20:40:49  <andythenorth> and basically you can then spend £1.49 - £99 to just win stuff
20:41:00  <andythenorth> so it's basically menial work and/or shopping
20:41:09  <andythenorth> zero strategy or tactics
20:41:44  <Alberth> but then you'd need to think, which takes brain power you could spend on buying stuff
20:42:21  <V453000> LOL
20:43:04  <andythenorth> they are *really* addictive
20:43:16  <andythenorth> and quite rewarding for first few days, as you make level progression quickly
20:43:25  <andythenorth> and they are really well crafted
20:43:30  <andythenorth> but I'm going right off them :P
20:43:43  <V453000> mor nuts - time well spent
20:43:43  <V453000> G_G
20:44:28  <andythenorth> it's boring to realise that the only thing I'm playing against is my own attention span
20:44:37  <andythenorth> and whether I cave in and hit 'purchase'
20:45:01  <andythenorth> I have no point here, just observing
20:45:18  <Eddi|zuHause> we are clearly in the last days of our civilization
20:46:20  <andythenorth> I think we're always in the last days of our current civilisation :P
20:46:43  <Eddi|zuHause> it's obvious that it's completely falling apart in the next 50-100 years
20:47:44  <andythenorth> afaik, from some tiny historical knowledge, that has been obvious for at least 2000 years
20:48:15  <andythenorth> and as at least Indian civilisation history goes back about 5k years, I _think_ it has been obvious that long
20:48:37  <Pinkbeast> Pretty sure some of the Chinese dynasties thought they'd last forever
20:50:26  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i mean like the easter island, the khmer empire or the maya empire kind of "falling apart"
20:50:26  <andythenorth> anyway, I had an idea, might be nonsense
20:50:41  <andythenorth> trying to figure out what an OpenTTD with no dates would be like
20:50:58  <Eddi|zuHause> where 100 years later nobody even remembers there being an empire
20:51:03  <andythenorth> time progression remains
20:51:03  <Xaroth|Work> a timeless game, andythenorth.
20:51:17  <andythenorth> but vehicle introductions etc are triggered against goals, not dates
20:51:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: implement "research"
20:52:10  <Xaroth|Work> make a bigass skill tree
20:52:12  <Xaroth|Work> like path of exile
20:52:23  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah :)
20:52:42  <planetmaker> hehe
20:52:49  <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: I daresay the survivors will _remember_ the USA's hegemony
20:52:52  <Eddi|zuHause> could make your engines 3% faster or 5% stronger
20:52:56  <andythenorth> I've been playing a game with crafting
20:52:57  <andythenorth> it's shit
20:52:58  <planetmaker> the concept of skills and the tree there is actually quite nice
20:53:11  <andythenorth> crafting in a pay-for-stuff game is really lame
20:54:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: after the first european expeditions crossed north america to the mississippi region, they found a civilisation that built pyramids and stuff, when the settlers moved there 100 years later, the inhabitants were so decimated that they didn't have any knowledge of who built these ancient pyramids
20:55:23  <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: Indeed, but the present arrangement is much, much better at producing written artifacts
20:55:56  <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: that was true 20-200 years ago, but nowadays most things are electronic
20:56:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and who's gonna be able to read a DVD in 20 years time?
20:56:43  <planetmaker> the present is terrible at leaving artefacts which last beyond 50 years time span
20:56:52  <Rubidium> even reading flash cards from a camera of half a decade ago is troublesome ;)
20:57:04  <planetmaker> unless it's printed books.
20:57:47  <Pinkbeast> Hey, my 64M Flash card still works (but more seriously, "paperless office", my arse - computers are astonishingly good at producing print)
20:58:25  <yorick> "to unlock more than 100 trains, press the donate link below!"
20:59:34  <Eddi|zuHause> germany makes an archive for future generations to find, in some abandoned mine in a remote forest. there they don't store anything electronic, but on microfiche, so something a human could decipher if the archive is found in 500 years
20:59:58  <andythenorth> assuming magnifying glasses survive
21:00:40  <andythenorth> planetmaker: how would skills tree work?
21:00:45  <andythenorth> I haven't played many games like that
21:01:05  <andythenorth> games now all seem to have endless 'you won a fricking gold star' constant reward mechanics
21:01:09  <andythenorth> 'achievment unlocked'
21:01:11  <andythenorth> meh
21:01:23  <Pinkbeast> Turning vehicle arrival dates into an R&D budget could be interesting
21:01:27  <planetmaker> andythenorth, in which game? OpenTTDPay2Win?
21:01:36  <andythenorth> dunno
21:01:36  <Eddi|zuHause> one of the problems of our current time is that we dig up so many archeological artifacts that when that knowledge gets lost again, the next civilization will have problems finding artifacts not only about our current time, but also about times before ours
21:03:23  <planetmaker> andythenorth, Indeed I like the path of exile way: define a few character 'classes'. And then they can move on in a web of paths from that point
21:03:35  <planetmaker> and each step along a path gives you +X in a certain skill
21:03:57  <planetmaker> skills not every time the same, but you know what comes
21:04:00  <andythenorth> hmm
21:04:02  <Eddi|zuHause> you never ever have enough skill points :p
21:04:03  <planetmaker> thus you can choose
21:04:06  <andythenorth> this is so addictive
21:04:09  <planetmaker> and know which paths are nice
21:04:15  * andythenorth went searching for Achievement Unlocked
21:04:23  <andythenorth> "Who needs gameplay when you have ACHIEVEMENTS?"
21:04:30  <andythenorth> "Focus solely on your ultimate destiny... doing random tasks that have nothing to do with anything. Metagame yourself with ease! Self-satisfaction never felt so... artificial!"
21:04:47  <Pinkbeast> "Upgrade Complete" is quite cute as well, in a similiar vein
21:04:59  <V453000> yeah unlocking nuts train levels and classes for example XD
21:05:01  <Alberth> andythenorth: sounds like your random GS :)
21:05:11  *** retro|cz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:05:25  <andythenorth> It's all just a bit bizarre
21:05:28  <Pinkbeast> V453000: NUTS would be a good fit because the "next" vehicle is actually expected to be better, yes.
21:05:40  <andythenorth> when I grew up you had 'level complete' etc
21:05:51  <andythenorth> but now kids get achievements, and for fricking everything
21:05:53  <V453000> exactly
21:05:57  <andythenorth> cleaned teeth: have an achievement
21:06:06  <andythenorth> went to school: have an achievement
21:06:23  <andythenorth> and this isn't a rant about 'kids today', it's nothing to do with them, they're 3 and don't choose this stuff
21:06:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, the "achievement unlocked" generation :)
21:06:49  <V453000> achievements doesnt have to influence gameplay
21:06:59  <V453000> e.g. starcraft - you get a shitload of various achievements which are fun
21:07:07  <V453000> but it wont cause your game to be cuter etc
21:07:16  <V453000> well yeah you can get portraits and meh, but not gameplay wise
21:07:32  <Eddi|zuHause> achievement unlocked: unicorn bonus level
21:07:39  <andythenorth> Car games that unlocked new car parts makes sense
21:08:05  <andythenorth> I was playing Euro Truck Simulator for the last few months...Achievement: You Drove To Frankfurt
21:08:09  <andythenorth> fuck yeah, I'm winning
21:08:13  <andythenorth> let's keep playing
21:08:18  <andythenorth> I'm really motivated
21:08:26  <Eddi|zuHause> which frankfurt?
21:08:37  <V453000> XD
21:08:56  <andythenorth> the teeny tiny pseudo one (Frankfurt-am-Main I think) in the game
21:08:59  * Pinkbeast did go to most of the cities just to see which landmarks they got in the skybox
21:09:01  <andythenorth> or there could be some kind of strategy...and tactics :P
21:09:06  <Eddi|zuHause> # Weil Frankfurt so groß ist teilt man's in zwei ein
21:09:21  <Eddi|zuHause> # In Frankfurt an der Oder und Frankfurt am Main
21:09:34  <andythenorth> anyway, we should put achievements into OpenTTD so that we can attract many more players
21:09:38  <andythenorth> and be truly successful
21:10:50  <planetmaker> goals are achievements, no?
21:11:07  <planetmaker> And yes, even when achievements do not influence the gameplay, they can be there
21:11:15  <andythenorth> goals are different to achievements
21:11:18  <planetmaker> they give a 'purpose' in open-end games otherwise
21:11:22  <planetmaker> andythenorth, how?
21:11:30  <andythenorth> hmm
21:11:39  <planetmaker> really depends on how you utilise openttd's 'goals'
21:11:41  <andythenorth> goal is a thorny word in English
21:11:46  <andythenorth> can mean different things
21:11:50  <planetmaker> it could simply give you a medal - and do otherwise nothing
21:11:58  <planetmaker> and keep track of those in the storybook
21:12:06  <andythenorth> I view a goal as a win condition, with some progression
21:12:13  <andythenorth> either closer to winning, or unlocking new gameplay
21:12:28  <planetmaker> the baby had to have a name :-) And yes, you *can* do that
21:12:34  <andythenorth> of course, getting an achievement can be a goal, because the word goal is quite flexible in English
21:12:43  <planetmaker> but you can simply unlock nothing other than a wall of text.
21:12:52  <planetmaker> and a golden plastic crown
21:12:56  <andythenorth> hmm
21:12:57  <andythenorth> :)
21:13:54  <V453000> man nuts would be so awesome with tech tree :D especially e.g. unlocking the kinds of bonus engines
21:14:14  <V453000> I cant think how would you evaluate when does a player get engine X (by what values), but yeah :D
21:14:16  <andythenorth> what causes progression along the tree?
21:14:25  <V453000> some achievement
21:14:33  <V453000> or time if talking within train class
21:15:02  <andythenorth> built 30 evil horse engines, get an evil zebra
21:15:10  <andythenorth> build 50 evil zebras, get a unicorn
21:15:36  <planetmaker> like that. Or transport Xtons of cargo Y in one year
21:15:45  <andythenorth> or travel 300,000 kilometers using evil zebras, get an evil giraffe
21:15:52  <planetmaker> Or grow a town to 5000 population (for express trains)
21:16:03  <V453000> something like that andy
21:16:09  <andythenorth> deliver x tons of steel to evil train plant
21:16:10  <V453000> perhaps with a time limit
21:16:13  <andythenorth> (evil steel)
21:16:34  <V453000> e.g. transport W amount of cargo X by engines Y, you get Z
21:16:37  <andythenorth> I think the forced isolation between newgrf and GS makes this...hard?
21:16:45  <V453000> :D kind of?
21:17:38  <andythenorth> it is interesting that the newgrf spec mostly developed in a foamer direction, not a gameplay direction
21:18:31  <andythenorth> the set I am doing with Dan is getting more and more gameplay focussed, and less and less about making a model train sim based on real world
21:18:32  <V453000> myeah, grf = grafix :P
21:18:35  <Eddi|zuHause> transport X cargos for next level, and then exponential growth of X
21:19:55  <andythenorth> I can't explain why, but I think hiding the real-world year would help this in some cases
21:20:08  <andythenorth> I also see why so many of you like toyland, after playing it with child #1 a lot
21:20:13  <andythenorth> I still hate it :P
21:20:21  <andythenorth> but yeah, it's more fun, not so much model trains
21:20:33  <Eddi|zuHause> civilization has a tech tree and a "real world year"
21:20:54  <Eddi|zuHause> never had a problem with launching the spaceship in 1850 :p
21:21:04  <andythenorth> he :)
21:21:50  <planetmaker> :-)
21:22:18  <andythenorth> but the dates are controlled by newgrf
21:22:34  <andythenorth> and newgrf is golden, may never be touched, may never be over-ridden lest an author complain
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21:22:43  <andythenorth> so what are we to do?
21:22:46  <andythenorth> it's a real puzzle
21:23:02  <andythenorth> the like of which is beyond minds like mine
21:23:34  <Eddi|zuHause> transform newgrf's year of introduction into a tech level
21:23:51  <andythenorth> and have the game manage that per player?
21:23:56  <andythenorth> or per company perhaps
21:24:01  <Eddi|zuHause> like vehicles introduced in 1920 cost 500 research points and vehicles in 1980 1 million
21:24:17  <andythenorth> oh so there's some integer that increases up from 0?
21:24:38  <andythenorth> and we could scale that against the default game, for those who want a boring real-world experience?
21:24:40  <V453000> :D
21:24:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, and you could focus on one engine which gets double points and all others half, or so
21:24:57  <andythenorth> and it's up to GS how tech level changes?
21:25:43  <andythenorth> wouldn't that also conveniently solve the utterly unrelated problems with randomised-per-model intro dates?
21:26:00  <andythenorth> (and model expiry)
21:26:51  <andythenorth> and afaik, most daylength requirements are about slowing down the rate of vehicle introduction?
21:27:01  <andythenorth> so this would solve daylength for some fraction of players
21:29:22  <planetmaker> that *would* be an interesting gameplay for sure :-)
21:29:44  <V453000> randomized intro dates are wtf anyway
21:29:47  <andythenorth> yup
21:29:54  <andythenorth> they're pretty much unworkable
21:29:55  <planetmaker> the GS could also introduce new industries etc depending on tech levels
21:29:58  <andythenorth> yup
21:30:06  <andythenorth> solving a whole load of specific date crap
21:30:14  <andythenorth> hmm
21:30:20  <andythenorth> digression
21:30:21  <planetmaker> replacing it by specific tech level crap :D
21:30:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem with that is that the newgrf must somehow define the tech levels
21:30:27  <V453000> interesting
21:30:31  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise the GS can't do anything
21:30:35  <V453000> y
21:30:45  <Eddi|zuHause> or whatever the GS is doing will suck
21:31:15  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: can't we just use an integer value, normalised against default TTD?
21:31:23  <andythenorth> 1950 in default game = 500 or whatever
21:31:40  <andythenorth> and newgrf just says 'this engine arrives at tech level 500'
21:31:46  <andythenorth> again normalised against default game
21:32:01  <andythenorth> we have to have some kind of baseline?
21:32:16  * andythenorth guessing purely
21:32:36  <andythenorth> btw when we play MP NoCarGoal or whatever, games are too short to care about dates and new vehicle introductions and stuff
21:32:52  <andythenorth> but still a NoCarGoal challenge (or high score league) could track tech levels
21:33:32  <andythenorth> and we could try playing with different newgrfs without needing an intimate knowledge of which ones introduce which vehicles when
21:34:08  <V453000> well yeah because you are lazy bastards and play too short games :P
21:34:23  <andythenorth> I blame the kid
21:34:33  <Eddi|zuHause> extended CETS with vehicle every 2 years :p
21:34:41  <andythenorth> anyway, this is all waffle, but in summary:
21:34:57  <andythenorth> - ottd can't go manipulating the game date, people will whine, industries will break etc
21:35:08  <andythenorth> - ottd can't currently over-ride newgrfs intro dates
21:35:12  <andythenorth> - so let's have an abstraction
21:35:25  <andythenorth> what can go wrong?
21:35:27  <andythenorth> not much
21:36:00  * andythenorth is going to the pub
21:36:08  <andythenorth> first decent pony idea in a while though :D
21:36:09  <V453000> good solution
21:36:10  <V453000> :)
21:36:30  <andythenorth> thanks, I try
21:36:42  <andythenorth> maybe it will get worked out while I am away?
21:36:43  <andythenorth> :)
21:36:44  <andythenorth> bye
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21:43:16  <jrambo> is there a way to hotkey buying vehicles, or if not, to implement that in the game?
21:47:36  <jrambo> there seems to be something in the hotkeys.cfg about it, but i cant get it to work :/
21:50:03  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds tricky, as you have to select a depot
21:51:07  <Eddi|zuHause> so you can't just put "GLOBAL+key" on a button
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22:28:40  <Wolf01> nighty night
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22:30:28  <frosch123> night
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