Log for #openttd on 4th November 2013:
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01:37:06  <Snowfyre> ugh, going from mg lev to steam feels so frustrating X3
01:41:01  <Snowfyre> and turning on infrastructure maintnence costs my game is already looking bleak
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01:54:43  <Supercheese> Well, a challenge is nice, no?
01:54:53  <Supercheese> Often OTTD is very easy and sandboxy, which is nice
01:55:06  <Supercheese> but some tough constraints can be fun to overcome
02:01:33  <Snowfyre> yea, im barely survivng with 2 trains dragging water to a small town i cheated in >.> once i wasted away the remaining cheated money i found myself with less money than you start with so im sitting just under max loan with a double track line to the nearest water source
02:02:20  <Snowfyre> infrastructure is costing me k  a year
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02:49:09  <Snowfyre> slowly bringing my loan down
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05:37:38  <Snowfyre> steam trains are so slow D:
06:09:23  <Snowfyre> whew, infrastructure costs build up fast
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07:45:15  <NGC3982> Good morning.
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07:46:21  <NGC3982> I wish the Android app worked right now.
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08:21:32  <NGC3982> Yey.
08:22:36  <Supercheese> ?
08:23:17  <NGC3982> G:-(
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08:43:42  <V453000> G_G
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10:50:39  <peter1138> Arr, mouse batteries dying already :(
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11:08:13  <FLHerne> Try little chunks of apple. They like those :-)
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12:21:26  <MNIM> that's why smart people use mice with tails
12:21:48  <V453000> ^^
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12:35:06  <peter1138> When I look in real shops, they only have crappy laptop-companion mice these days :(
12:36:04  <V453000> eshops sound real enough to me :P
12:36:20  <peter1138> Can't try it out for feel then, though.
12:37:27  <Xaroth|Work> laptop companion mice suck balls for working >1h with
12:37:54  <MNIM> laptop companion mice suck hairy balls to work with, period
12:38:14  <peter1138> G600 MMO mouse... 15 fecking buttons o_O
12:38:22  <Xaroth|Work> if you quickly need to do something I prefer those over a trackpad
12:38:48  <Japa_> Nothing beats a trackpoint, though.
12:38:53  <V453000> I bought Steelseries Sensei RAW Rubberized, superb for the price ... with no extra fecking buttons :)
12:39:03  <Xaroth|Work> mx518 <3
12:39:22  <Xaroth|Work> even made my boss get me one for work
12:39:47  <Japa_> Incidentally, what's the maturity rating of this channel?
12:40:22  <Xaroth|Work> depends on the time of day, really
12:41:57  <Japa_> Just wondering weather to use TrackPoint™-style pointer, or clit-mouse.
12:42:06  <Xaroth|Work> ...
12:43:02  <peter1138> They're not much of an option for a desktop PC.
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12:43:42  <Japa_> Not without a  keyboard, anyway.
12:43:42  <peter1138> I'm not willing to waste money on a crappy keyboard just for it.
12:44:00  <Japa_> And yeah, buying online can lead to surprises.
12:44:20  <peter1138> I have a £70 keyboard, heh.
12:44:38  <Japa_> I bought a razor gaming mouse online, and it turned out tiny.
12:44:58  <Japa_> come to think of it, had a similar experience with my girlfriend.
12:45:11  <peter1138> You bought a girlfriend online?
12:45:17  <V453000> LOL
12:45:42  <Xaroth|Work> your girlfriend said it turned out tiny?
12:45:44  <V453000> well razer is cute but stupidly expensive for what they bring imo
12:46:21  <Japa_> I didn't buy her, but I did get to know her online first before meeting her later in person. She barely reaches my shoulder.
12:46:50  <peter1138> Better wait til she's older then.
12:46:53  <V453000> ._. this channel is weird
12:46:55  <juzza1> haha
12:47:07  <Xaroth|Work> peter1138: you were too fast :P
12:47:33  <Japa_> Pecio, she's older than I am.
12:47:37  <Japa_> by half a year
12:48:00  <V453000> still doesnt mean you are over 15
12:48:10  <Japa_> I'm 26, she's 27
12:48:14  <Xaroth|Work> ffs, people keep typing faster than me :p
12:48:28  <Japa_> And here's a picture of my mouse.
12:48:53  <peter1138> That razer is ... tiny ...
12:49:13  <peter1138> The MS mouse is quite nice while it still works.
12:49:20  <peter1138> Eventually the buttons give up though.
12:49:32  <peter1138> Been through a few of them...
12:49:50  <LordAro> peter1138: you should get a rat instead ;)
12:50:18  <Japa_> Yeah, when I first opened the box, my reaction was all "the fuck is this shit?"
12:50:32  <peter1138> They seem to be adjustable from very small to a bit less small
12:50:34  <Japa_> I've grown to love it, though.
12:52:02  <MNIM> So
12:52:52  <MNIM> am I the only one who's perfectly fine with the standard compaq mouse that came with my PC?
12:53:23  <peter1138>$T2eC16VHJFwFFZ8RnuyZBScl9p7lK!~~60_35.JPG
12:53:26  <peter1138> like that? :p
12:54:52  <Japa_> MNIM, I buy new mice when old ones no longer function.
12:55:00  <V453000> ^
12:56:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i had a microsoft mouse once, it broke after half a year, and the warranty replacement a year later. then i switched to logitech
12:56:49  <Eddi|zuHause> ... which i had to warranty-replace after 2.5 years again
12:56:52  <peter1138> I find the non-slip pads come off eventually.
12:57:06  <peter1138> And then the plastic wears, and then it wobbles.
12:57:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, the pseudo-leather thing around the mouse wheel
12:57:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it dissolves into tiny particles which block everything on the inside
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13:06:45  <MNIM> peter1138: pretty much, but slightly newer and blacker. (2008)
13:07:17  <peter1138> Gosh, you must be a keyboard-warrior for a mouse to last that long :)
13:09:32  <frosch123> both my keyboard and mouse are from around 2000
13:10:08  <Tulitomaatti> i had my first mouse last me from around 2002 to 2010 or so
13:10:13  <Tulitomaatti> 'first' as in first optical
13:10:14  <frosch123> the mouse once had some gumming, but it got lost over the years
13:10:15  <Eddi|zuHause> now can one endure a mouse without wheel?
13:10:26  <frosch123> it kind of has the shape of my hand now :p
13:11:11  <frosch123> wasn't there a xkcd about people not using mouse wheels?
13:11:15  <peter1138> Hmm, I've got a dual-optics mouse somewhere.
13:11:31  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i think there was
13:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> in ~20 years of computer usage i had like 10 mice
13:12:52  <Eddi|zuHause> some longer, others shorter
13:13:51  <frosch123> yeah, that was the case before i got the first generation of optical mouses
13:14:40  <peter1138> Cleaning yer balls
13:15:46  <frosch123> actually, most likely the cause was that i also bought a ps/2 wire extension
13:15:57  <frosch123> so that the wire had actually a sufficient length
13:17:01  <frosch123> (mind that i tried wireless before, but it turned out crap)
13:17:50  <Eddi|zuHause> early wireless was crap, but nowadays it's good
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13:18:41  <Eddi|zuHause> just the rechargable batteries don't last very long
13:18:48  <Eddi|zuHause> about 2-3 weeks
13:19:40  <Eddi|zuHause> non-rechargables were advertised to last about a year, but they were empty after about 3 months. and i'm not buying batteries that often
13:20:34  <frosch123> yeah, batteries were always empty when i needed the mouse the most
13:20:45  <frosch123> today i avoid any battery powered devices
13:21:06  <frosch123> sadly there are only battery powered cell phones
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13:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause> empty batteries refresh your skills in keyboard-accessibility :p
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13:22:08  <MNIM> peter1138: possibly
13:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause> well, rechargables are fine, i just switch them with the ones in the DECT phone
13:22:49  <MNIM> also, I have a wacom tablet which I use(d) for most mouse duties
13:22:57  <Eddi|zuHause> just the warning that the batteries get empty is sometimes not working
13:23:01  <MNIM> sadly that one has died on me this year.
13:23:34  <peter1138> Dunno where the mouse for my Wacom has gone, but it doesn't have a wheel anyway :(
13:23:55  <peter1138> Also, it's awkward using a mouse with a fixed surface.
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13:53:49  <Thurak> what settings would be good to make for a harder difficulty
13:55:27  <V453000> everything cheap, let everyone get tons of trains
13:55:30  <V453000> nothing is hardest
13:55:34  <V453000> harder* :)
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14:00:49  <Thurak> well, lots of rivers will be harder
14:00:59  <frosch123> Thurak: just in case: there is no point in trying to make ottd harder with money. all income in ottd grows exponential with how much you are building
14:01:12  <frosch123> so, higher costs only make the early game slower and boring
14:01:18  <frosch123> but they change nothing overall
14:01:26  <V453000> ^
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14:01:44  <frosch123> you cannot make ottd "hard", you can only make it "interesting"
14:01:58  <frosch123> by providing non-money challenges or non-money goals
14:01:59  <Thurak> what makes it more interesting then
14:02:22  <Thurak> oh, like fill in the ocean or something like that
14:02:32  <frosch123> mountains, no terraforoming, short bridges and tunnels
14:02:57  <V453000> e.g. have a large network with many trains transporting a lot of cargo while making it look nice
14:02:59  <V453000> just an example
14:03:15  <Thurak> just making a rail look nice is a challenge for me atm..
14:03:18  <V453000> level 2, invent something interesting how to make the network
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14:03:39  <V453000> well then consider if you running a server is a good option :P
14:03:45  <V453000> perhaps learning something first is a good idea
14:04:39  <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> mountains, no terraforoming, short bridges and tunnels <-- and steep slopes
14:04:51  <Thurak> normally i start with something like a few truck networks, once i get a resonable amount of money i make a few long distance rails
14:04:57  <Eddi|zuHause> then early newgrf (ca. 1850)
14:05:11  <Thurak> i started this one on 1800
14:05:13  <V453000> steep slopes can be massively abused on downhills Eddi :P
14:05:42  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: we need to model braking power for that :)
14:05:53  <Thurak> i have a newgrf that would allow me to start in 1700, but that would leave me using the same 4 horse truck for 120 years
14:06:18  <Eddi|zuHause> low braking power => massively reduced speed limit downhill
14:06:33  <V453000> that sounds rather dumb
14:06:40  <V453000> you want your train to accelerate on the downhill :)
14:06:56  <V453000> increasing steepness would then only hurt uphill for no gain on downhill
14:06:58  <V453000> now it is nice balance
14:07:06  <Thurak> i see nothing wrong with a steam engine going 300mph down a near vertical slope :)
14:07:17  <Eddi|zuHause> for certain values of "nice" and "balance" :p
14:12:11  <Thurak> can you turn off the warning messages for vehciles making a loss?
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14:12:59  <Thurak> these horses move at 13kmh, takes just over a year to make a £330 trip, but they cost £37/year, making a large profit but some years they wont have quite made a delivery, so the game says im losing money from them
14:13:30  <V453000> perhaps start the game in some intelligent date like 1920 for most newGRFs
14:14:13  <juzza1> go to advanced settings - vehicles - warn if a vehicle's income is negative
14:14:38  <Thurak> thx, and date wouldnt help much because when i have faster things i will have them go further :P
14:14:48  <Thurak> i often have trips that last over a year, large map size
14:15:14  <V453000> enjoy the large map size then
14:15:45  <Thurak> i went for 1024x1024
14:15:47  <V453000> honestly having things go 100-200 tiles is about maximum reasonable for start
14:16:06  <V453000> 512*512 is more than enough for anything :)
14:16:18  <Thurak> what about vacuum rails
14:16:23  <Thurak> that travel 4000kmh
14:16:25  <V453000> when I play alone I generally stay in an area within 256x256
14:16:36  <V453000> trains that travel so fast I can barely see them? why
14:16:48  <V453000> I would rather use a smaller map I can actually fill, lags less, and is more fun
14:17:28  <Thurak> ah, my notebook is fast enough i dont get lag on this size
14:17:32  <MNIM> huh.
14:17:36  <Thurak> at least i dont get, i might if i had lots more stuff on it
14:18:06  <MNIM> my road vehicle income is just as large as my train income.
14:18:13  <V453000> well making more things on smaller space is more interesting anyway
14:18:21  <V453000> e.g. building a long straight line is just plain dull
14:18:54  <Thurak> i like to have both
14:19:20  <V453000> make 500 trains on 256x256, much more entertaining and interesting
14:19:53  <V453000> or 1000, idk how much you feel like :)
14:20:52  <Thurak> isnt that where you start turning the map into a circuitboard of rails?
14:21:09  <V453000> isnt that the point?
14:21:54  <Thurak> i think the most i have got to so far is 2 rails each way
14:22:44  <V453000> doesnt mean you cant get further :)
14:23:15  <Thurak> thats as far as the industry grew
14:23:58  <Thurak> not sure if passengers would be better
14:24:14  <V453000> well you need many industries for sure :P
14:24:32  <Thurak> yes, that was my main one tho as it had been growing since i started
14:24:37  <V453000> cant say I would consider 1 industry a "network" :)
14:24:43  <Thurak> think ill try build up some citys
14:34:35  <Thurak> why am i getting 'autorenew failed on vehicle xx (money limit)
14:34:42  <Thurak> the renew cost is about £1000, i have £100,000
14:35:46  <juzza1> by default you need 200k for the renew to work, you can change it in the settings
14:35:57  <Thurak> ah right
14:36:20  <Thurak> i guess thats to stop you accidently spending everything you have
14:36:48  <V453000> autorenew is worthless if you have breakdowns off (which you honestly should)
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14:38:14  <Thurak> i was replacing with faster vehicles
14:38:20  <Thurak> but the message still calls it autorenew
14:39:15  <V453000> oh :0
14:39:26  <V453000> well disabling those messages is also a good idea :D
14:41:47  <Thurak> seems to be replacing as i go over 100k
14:42:02  <Thurak> when my money drops below 100k it rails upgrade
14:42:07  <Thurak> fails*
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14:42:21  <Thurak> well its almost done them now anyway
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15:02:13  <Thurak> is there a limit to the size a city can grow
15:02:33  <V453000> 2-3 millions
15:04:35  <Thurak> 2^31 by any chance?
15:05:36  <V453000> not ^ anything
15:05:51  <V453000> simply the point where houses start dying the same speed as growing
15:06:14  <Thurak> ah right
15:06:44  <Thurak> i was thinking it was 2147483647 as thats the limit of 32bit numbers
15:07:09  <V453000> ..
15:14:00  <NGC3982> Can someone hilight me, please.
15:14:55  <V453000> no markers around
15:15:07  <NGC3982> \o/
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15:26:04  <scshunt> NGC3982: HI
15:26:23  <NGC3982> Thanks
15:30:07  <Xaroth|Work> NGC3982: you know that's asking for trouble right?
15:30:19  <peter1138> When I need to know the limits of this game, I don't look at the source code, I ask V453000...
15:30:24  <NGC3982> Xaroth|Work: ;-)
15:30:35  <V453000> :d
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15:59:18  <Rubidium> @calc 2046*2046*2/3*255
15:59:18  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 711639720
15:59:45  <V453000> congratulations you got a high number :D
15:59:48  <V453000> :P
16:00:12  <Rubidium> ^ that is the maximum a town can grow, although maybe you can get it slightly further if you can bring the road density down even more
16:00:21  <V453000> did you try? :)
16:00:34  <Rubidium> no, it's more a theoretical maximum
16:00:46  <V453000> above 2-3m, houses are just replaced, population stops increasing :)
16:00:53  <V453000> is theoretical any useful? :P
16:01:18  <adf88> theoretically there can be no roads
16:01:21  <adf88> at all
16:01:23  <V453000> :D
16:01:23  <adf88> :p
16:01:39  <Rubidium> adf88: true, but then they don't grow and die pretty quickly
16:01:45  <Rubidium> @calc 2046*2046*255
16:01:45  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 1067459580
16:01:52  <V453000> nuff sed :D me goes home
16:02:01  <Rubidium> @calc 2047*2047*255
16:02:01  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 1068503295
16:02:05  <Rubidium> ^ that's the number in that case ;)
16:03:06  <Rubidium> V453000: I agree, lets go home ;)
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16:03:21  <frosch123> V453000: your observation restricts the number of houses
16:03:34  <frosch123> you still need a house sets which sets population to max for each house
16:07:51  <Snowfyre> is there any way to remove a city?
16:09:26  <adf88> only in scenario editor
16:13:08  *** kais58|A1K is now known as kais58__5
16:14:36  <George> Hi. I'd like to ask about FS#5588
16:15:07  <George> It's time after time I return back to this fnctionality
16:15:21  <George> And miss it again and again
16:15:31  <George> Is it that hard to do?
16:15:42  <George> Could someone please do it?
16:16:12  <George> All I need is a possibility to disallow refit
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16:37:51  <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> @calc 2046*2046*2/3*255 <-- if you have parallel roads every 4th tile, you have 3/4-epsilon. just have to remove stump roads all the time
16:38:25  <Eddi|zuHause> (epsilon is for the connection between the roads, preferably through the town center)
16:42:16  <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't want to remove the stump roads, you can have 3x4 grids, so 12 houses out of 20 tiles, meaning 3/5 (assuming "better roads")
16:42:58  <Eddi|zuHause> on 4x4 you don't get houses on the middle tiles
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16:46:15  <nickshanks> I am trying to compile on Mac OS X 10.9 and getting linker errors for functions under std::string::   Has anyone been able to compile on Mavericks yet?
16:46:38  <Eddi|zuHause> try an older SDK
16:46:53  <Eddi|zuHause> the newest SDK misses some 8-bit colour functions
16:47:29  <nickshanks> I #if'd those out but can't seem to get past the linker
16:48:09  <Eddi|zuHause> then i don't know
16:48:14  <nickshanks> how would I change the SDK anyway?
16:49:09  <nickshanks> Xcode 5 comes with 10.9 and 10.8 SDKs, nothing older. both of those use libstdc++.6.0.9.dylib
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17:49:46  <planetmaker> iirc you can get the older sdk from the apple site, nickshanks
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17:52:00  <__ln__> but since a lot of people have successfully compiled OpenTTD on 10.8, i don't see why using 10.8 SDK wouldn't work.
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18:23:19  <Wolf01> o/
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18:33:32  <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of which, anyone considered a "--without-8bpp" configure switch?
18:50:03  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r25938 trunk/src/object_cmd.cpp (2013-11-04 17:59:58 UTC)
18:50:04  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5798] (r25876): Don't mistake a lighthouse for a transmitter and vice versa
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19:35:22  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25939 /trunk/src/lang (japanese.txt latvian.txt) (2013-11-04 18:45:15 UTC)
19:35:23  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:35:24  <DorpsGek> japanese - 1 changes by guppy
19:35:25  <DorpsGek> latvian - 15 changes by Parastais
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19:42:45  <nickshanks> planetmaker: i've just looked and don't see anything on nor in the downloads tab of the Xcode prefs. I cannot connect to at the moment (ironically)
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19:48:30  <planetmaker> you might need to login to apple and you can get XCode and SDKs to at least 10.4 backwards
19:49:44  <planetmaker>
19:50:08  <planetmaker> sometimes they're bundled with an old version of XCode
19:51:13  <nickshanks> agh, well i have various macs with older Xcode's on them, can I just copy over the SDK bundles? I presumed i had to get ones that were specific to Xcode 5
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19:51:39  <planetmaker> obviously it's not possible to provide links to SDKs directly
19:52:14  <planetmaker> SDK and XCode are different stuff really. For OpenTTD you don't need XCode at all
19:52:18  *** Alberth [] has joined #openttd
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19:52:24  <nickshanks> are you a/theresident mac developer?
19:52:47  <Alberth> me? no
19:52:48  <planetmaker> I'd not call myself that
19:52:53  <planetmaker> hi Alberth
19:53:02  <Alberth> hi planetmaker
19:53:15  <nickshanks> who would be the name to look out for in this channel?
19:53:31  <planetmaker> But I'm the only OpenTTD developer who acknowledges to possess apple hardware, a (meanwhile very old) macbook
19:53:39  <Alberth> nobody, there isn't a resident mac developer
19:53:44  <planetmaker> ^
19:53:48  <__ln__> please, *Xcode
19:53:56  <planetmaker> __ln__, no
19:53:57  <Alberth> we are still looking for one
19:54:00  <nickshanks> okay, well once i am up and running I don't mind being that person.
19:54:09  <planetmaker> I said that once, too ;-)
19:54:17  <nickshanks> i am a the resident mac developer on FreeCol
19:54:17  <Alberth> plenty of open issues to fix :p
19:54:28  <planetmaker> It started to annoy me that apple breaks things on an annual basis
19:54:34  <LordAro> didn't michicc fix most of them?
19:55:11  <planetmaker> he fixed some. But without access to apple hardware
19:55:16  <planetmaker> at least afaik
19:55:17  <__ln__> nickshanks: 19:02 < __ln__> but since a lot of people have successfully compiled OpenTTD on 10.8, i don't see why using 10.8 SDK wouldn't work.
19:55:19  <nickshanks> i just got myself a retina MBP with 16 GB of ram and an SSD (my first machine with one)
19:56:04  <nickshanks> __ln__: thanks for repeating: i had just left the office at that time, so didn't catch the message
19:56:16  <nickshanks> how does one switch SDKs with ./configure + make
19:56:33  <__ln__> you specify the SDK to use in the CFLAGS
19:57:12  <nickshanks> agh, i was messing about with LDFLAGS trying to fix the linker :)
19:57:42  <nickshanks> why when i type ahh does OS X keep changing it? hmm, another mystery of Apple
19:58:11  <nickshanks> spelling learnt
19:59:15  <LordAro> planetmaker: which makes it all the more impressive :)
20:01:32  <planetmaker> nickshanks, you might need to provide also a different isystem=...
20:02:04  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
20:02:07  <nickshanks> 3 questions with that, what is -i, what is system, and what valid values are there?
20:07:27  <nickshanks> i googled for ./configure cflags macosx sdk and am now compiling with -mmacosx-version-min and -isysroot
20:07:27  <planetmaker> right... I need to start recalling the details
20:07:36  <planetmaker> isysroot yes
20:08:05  <nickshanks> does CXXFLAGS have to match CFLAGS?
20:08:41  <nickshanks> same linker failuer
20:08:44  <planetmaker> well, not 100%. But the differences are defined in config.lib
20:08:57  <planetmaker> the rest better be the same usually
20:09:00  <nickshanks> i will try copying an older sdk
20:10:07  <planetmaker> they go in /Developer/SDKs
20:10:12  <planetmaker> but you likely know that :-)
20:10:16  <nickshanks> not any more :)
20:10:26  <nickshanks> they co in /Applications/
20:11:01  <nickshanks> I've been a Mac programmer for 19 years. you'd think i'd be good at this :D
20:11:10  <__ln__> correctomundo, they don't use /Developer anymore at all
20:11:35  <planetmaker> see, then you know all that stuff much better than me
20:11:52  <__ln__> nickshanks: what have you been doing if you've never needed to specify the SDK to use in 19 years?
20:12:15  <nickshanks> never need to specify it with makefiles
20:12:35  <nickshanks> either used ProjectBuilder/Xcode or SDKs did exist
20:12:38  <planetmaker> well. You usually don't here either. As the makefile will find the appropriate one
20:12:41  <nickshanks> e.g. CodeWarrior
20:13:16  <planetmaker> But if you want the non-default, thus an older one... :-)
20:13:19  <andythenorth> what are we doing?  Compiling on Mavericks? o_O
20:13:27  <nickshanks> yes
20:13:31  <andythenorth> mm
20:13:34  <nickshanks> with Xcode 5.0.1
20:13:36  <andythenorth> it can be done
20:13:42  <LordAro> nickshanks: in case you haven't noticed, configure/makefile is hand-written - nothing is likely to be entirely 'normal' ;)
20:13:46  <andythenorth> kerno(?) worked it out
20:13:53  <andythenorth> link to the 10.8 SDK
20:14:05  <andythenorth> and turn of lzma and something else
20:14:08  <andythenorth> and set some flags
20:14:13  <andythenorth> it's all in the logs from last week or so
20:14:14  <planetmaker> while that's a workaround, that's not a good solution in the mid-term
20:14:31  <planetmaker> why turn-off lzma? That's a totally different 3rd-party lib?
20:14:35  <nickshanks> andythenorth: where can i read those logs?
20:14:39  <planetmaker> @logs
20:14:39  <DorpsGek> planetmaker:
20:14:51  <nickshanks> ausomeomatic
20:14:59  * andythenorth searches
20:15:03  <nickshanks> crap, can't type yet on this new kbd
20:15:15  <planetmaker> did  they also re-arrange keys? :D
20:15:24  <nickshanks> yes, they are further apart
20:15:33  <andythenorth> here we go
20:15:37  <andythenorth> we should wiki that :P
20:16:30  <andythenorth> zydeco worked it out iirc
20:16:44  <andythenorth> I tested it on my wife's mac
20:17:14  <nickshanks> i disabled lama, and #if'd out the 8 bit stuff, but am stuck at the linker issue
20:18:09  <andythenorth> iirc, I edited nothing
20:18:11  <Rubidium> just install ubuntu. It already got 10.10
20:18:19  <andythenorth> just set flags on configure and make
20:18:28  <andythenorth> can't check now
20:18:32  <andythenorth> but it's all in those logs :)
20:18:55  <nickshanks> zydeco used LDFLAGS="-stdlib=libstdc++"
20:19:02  <nickshanks> that'll be the fix i need
20:19:03  <andythenorth> planetmaker: the lzma is unrelated to 10.9, but I couldn't get a valid version on a clean-installed mavericks
20:19:17  <andythenorth> I tried brew.  I refuse macports.  It was easier to ignore it
20:22:01  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I refuse brew. I read their instructions and they are as safe as rm -rf /*
20:22:17  <andythenorth> it's written in ruby, what could go wrong? :P
20:22:21  <andythenorth> famously high standards
20:22:32  <andythenorth> planetmaker: that leaves us with no decent package manager on OS X :(
20:22:38  <andythenorth> macports is a world of shame
20:23:23  <planetmaker> why?
20:25:27  <nickshanks> compiled, linked, running
20:25:30  <nickshanks> yay :)
20:25:43  <andythenorth> winner
20:25:50  <nickshanks> where might i find the development graphics sets?
20:26:13  <nickshanks> I will update the wiki (if "the public" have such permission)
20:26:28  <andythenorth> nickshanks: thanks :)
20:26:30  <andythenorth> appreciated
20:26:34  <nickshanks> anyway, much go sort out screaming baby
20:26:37  <andythenorth> hah
20:26:38  <nickshanks> thanks all
20:26:41  *** nickshanks [~nickshank@] has quit [Quit: nickshanks]
20:26:48  <andythenorth> must have the same life as me
20:27:37  <andythenorth> so did I miss anything?
20:27:48  <V453000> everything
20:31:45  <andythenorth> frosch123: I was thinking about the simple suggestion for tech levels (just use a fake date)
20:32:09  <andythenorth> I like the simplicity, but I wonder if it makes it hard to do 'level up'
20:32:19  <andythenorth> the GS might advance from 1951 tech to 1953 tech
20:32:23  <andythenorth> with no result
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20:33:19  <DJGummikuh> Hello!
20:33:44  <DJGummikuh> Is there ANY way (hacks will do) to connect the openttd ingame chat to an irc channel?
20:33:59  <planetmaker> obviously yes. At least two
20:34:17  <DJGummikuh> huh? I did some googling and turned up nothing
20:34:20  <planetmaker> the old deprecated way is to use a wrapper like ap+
20:34:37  <Alberth> oh dear, google is missing some information!
20:34:38  <DJGummikuh> and the new, shiny way?
20:34:48  <planetmaker> and the new and supported way is to interface the admin port with a bot which can transfer the chat between game and IRC
20:34:52  <DJGummikuh> Alberth: haha, jus wanted to state that I did not try google first :)
20:35:08  <DJGummikuh> err that I DID try google first
20:35:24  <DJGummikuh> planetmaker: is there documentation on that?
20:35:32  <planetmaker> I or
20:35:41  <planetmaker> are two implementations
20:35:48  <__ln__> and the third way is to hire someone in india to manually type messages back and forth
20:36:02  <DJGummikuh> __ln__: are you offering yourself? ;)
20:36:04  <Alberth> or hire someone to do it for you
20:36:05  <NGC3982> Poop.
20:36:26  <__ln__> DJGummikuh: sorry, never been to india
20:36:29  <planetmaker> __ln__, distinctly doesn't look Indian
20:36:45  <DJGummikuh> well fiji will do :)
20:37:44  <DJGummikuh> oh how brilliant... grapes is java <3
20:38:15  <DJGummikuh> We're planning on building up a community with several games with their chats all linked to each other cross-game
20:38:24  <DJGummikuh> being a java programmer, grapes suits my needs perfectly
20:38:27  <DJGummikuh> thanks for the help
20:39:07  <planetmaker> DJGummikuh, if you want to develop based on grapes, I'm sure the author will happily accept patches or collaborate
20:40:06  * Xaroth|Work shudders
20:40:29  <DJGummikuh> Xaroth|Work: huh?
20:40:35  <planetmaker> :-)
20:40:50  <planetmaker> he's the author of the python lib which soap is based on
20:41:09  <Xaroth|Work> aye
20:41:17  <Xaroth|Work> all the pull requests Taede makes
20:41:22  <Xaroth|Work> pfff :P
20:41:31  <planetmaker> :) He's quite industrious
20:41:44  <Xaroth|Work> speaking of which, is soap in use already?
20:41:49  <Xaroth|Work> or in test still?
20:42:24  <planetmaker> it's not yet in production use. Though I actual plan to do that rather sooner than later
20:42:39  <planetmaker> we're kinda beta-testing it now
20:43:08  <Xaroth|Work> nice
20:43:31  <DJGummikuh> "production"?
20:43:59  <DJGummikuh> ah by the way one thing that always bothered me since I first played transport tycoon - why are the planes so friggin slow and only sped up by option?
20:44:00  <planetmaker> well. Use on the #openttdcoop servers
20:44:18  <Xaroth|Work> because planes are otherwise overpowered as boot
20:44:35  <DJGummikuh> huh? how so? Expensive as hell and limited cargo hold
20:44:52  <planetmaker> planes are no-brain money. Even more than anything else. No need to make them no-brain mega-money
20:44:59  <DJGummikuh> having a 20 car train running all across the map is way way more profitable than 40 planes
20:45:06  <andythenorth> planes print money
20:45:16  <andythenorth> ok so no-one bit on tech levels :(
20:45:20  <Alberth> DJGummikuh: try a smaller map
20:45:21  <andythenorth> I also had an actual GS idea
20:45:45  <Xaroth|Work> DJGummikuh: try having airports on either sides of the map
20:45:58  <DJGummikuh> I usually do
20:46:09  <DJGummikuh> and my planes always break down before making a single trip xD
20:46:12  <Xaroth|Work> the bigger the map, the more vastly more money they accumulate
20:46:45  <DJGummikuh> mmh
20:47:47  <planetmaker> there's simply absolute no challange in setting up an air route
20:47:59  <DJGummikuh> mmh ok
20:48:29  <DJGummikuh> still I like planes :)
20:48:37  <planetmaker> anyway, you got the option to set speeds for all vehicles identically. So... no problem. Just use the setting
20:48:45  <planetmaker> for people like you we have it
20:48:54  <DJGummikuh> yeah but up until now I did not understand why this isn't default. now I doo
20:49:02  <DJGummikuh> I must admit I'm really a fan of this channel...
20:49:10  <DJGummikuh> You ask a question and get a helpful awnser
20:49:25  <planetmaker> must have found the happy hour here ;-)
20:49:29  <DJGummikuh> not this" omg you n00b moron idiot you should do this and that instead of what you are intending because you are an idiot and I'm soo leet"
20:50:23  <andythenorth> that happens
20:50:25  <andythenorth> but mostly not
20:50:31  <DJGummikuh> happens especially often in Minecraft channels )
20:50:33  <DJGummikuh> :)
20:50:48  <Xaroth|Work> that's because the average age in here is 20-ood years above that of the average MC channel...
20:50:50  <V453000> just dont say realism and you are rather safe
20:51:00  <Xaroth|Work> and I'm not claiming our average age is high
20:51:10  <planetmaker> hehe, Xaroth :-) yeah
20:51:20  <DJGummikuh> V453000:  :) btw what do you think about that "Transport Tycoon" you can buy for android?
20:51:26  <V453000> im done
20:51:32  <planetmaker> though for a game channel it actually might
20:52:17  <planetmaker> And I don't think about that TT. I don't own a device which could run it
20:52:32  *** nickshanks [~nickshank@] has joined #openttd
20:52:34  <DJGummikuh> well my phone can run openttd for sure
20:52:43  <Tulitomaatti> yes
20:52:45  <Tulitomaatti> oh
20:52:47  <Tulitomaatti> nevermind
20:52:49  <DJGummikuh> I just don't see any TTD in the transport tycoon you can buy there
20:52:54  <DJGummikuh> Tulitomaatti: :D
20:52:55  <V453000> then play openttd because it is probably endlessly better than that thing you just mentioned
20:53:04  <Tulitomaatti> damn mental hilights.
20:53:31  <DJGummikuh> V453000: what I love most is that you can play on PC servers :) I mean which commercial game offers that?
20:53:45  <V453000> no idea
20:53:54  <DJGummikuh> none I could think of
20:53:56  <V453000> which commercial game runs on mac? :D
20:54:11  <DJGummikuh> well mac and android are two different things [citation needed]
20:54:16  <Tulitomaatti> sc2, most blizzard games (up to snow lion)
20:54:41  <Tulitomaatti> eve, i guess wow does as well. many source engine games.
20:54:56  <nickshanks> all Bungie games up until Halo :)
20:55:17  <planetmaker> wasteland2 ;-)
20:55:18  <DJGummikuh> yeah but as said, android is a completely different thing. because you usually don't have keboard and mouse there, which gives you either an advantage or an disatvantage
20:55:21  <Tulitomaatti>
20:55:26  <Tulitomaatti> anything there is supposed to work.
20:55:38  <Tulitomaatti> though i'm still kinda mad at apple for removing rosetta stone support
20:55:42  <V453000> supposed to is good wording
20:55:44  <Tulitomaatti> that makes running old blizzard games a PITA
20:56:08  <nickshanks> mac games: are all my old friends and/or ex-employers
20:56:08  <Tulitomaatti> V453000: all the ones i've tried work.
20:56:52  <Tulitomaatti> though i do have a couple of cursewords reserved for the os x port/version keeping up/matching with the pc version (multiplayer issues)
20:56:52  <V453000> then you have a slight more objective advantage over my research over my 0, but that still does not stop me from random whining \o/
20:57:43  <Tulitomaatti> i shall go acquire foodstuffs
20:57:43  <nickshanks> sorry i had to dash earlier, but can someone give me a link to where i can get the graphics for SVN builds?
20:57:56  <Tulitomaatti> my parmesan and some of it's friends had turned in to science projects in the fridge
20:58:07  <andythenorth> nickshanks: baby drama resolved?
20:58:15  <planetmaker> nickshanks,
20:58:20  <nickshanks> Weird Al - Livin' in the fridge
20:58:27  <planetmaker> last push or last nightly
20:59:02  <planetmaker>
20:59:06  <planetmaker> ^ to be precise
20:59:28  <planetmaker> which reminds me.... meh
20:59:58  <nickshanks> why to ?
21:00:04  <nickshanks> *why not
21:00:10  <planetmaker> oh. missed it. yes
21:00:15  <planetmaker> that's one day newer
21:00:42  * nickshanks wonders what happened 5,056 days ago
21:00:51  <planetmaker> do the maths :-)
21:01:23  <planetmaker> but you should do the math back from the commit date. Though I think it is today. Or yesterday
21:01:49  <planetmaker> hm...
21:03:42  <planetmaker> nothing notworthy actually happend then. But not few wer surprised by that
21:03:49  <planetmaker> *were
21:04:39  <nickshanks> I am copying thr 10.4, 10.5 and 10.6 sdks from an Xcode 3 folder
21:04:57  <nickshanks> will go look for 10.7 in an xcode 4 install later
21:06:32  <planetmaker> btw: FOLDER="v`getdays2000`"
21:06:40  <planetmaker> ;-)
21:07:07  <V453000> there is no folder called v.
21:07:26  <planetmaker> <-- I think there is :D
21:07:31  <V453000> impersonation! :(
21:07:59  <nickshanks> my first job will be to add retina support (aka detection)
21:08:26  <nickshanks> anyway, time to put the kids to bed. thanks for the help.
21:08:29  *** nickshanks [~nickshank@] has quit [Quit: nickshanks]
21:08:38  <V453000> put them to their rest!
21:10:06  *** pear [] has joined #openttd
21:13:48  <Alberth> Luckily it will take a lot of days before we have several V453000
21:13:53  *** nickshanks [~nickshank@] has joined #openttd
21:13:57  <V453000> (:
21:14:03  <Taede> ello
21:14:06  <V453000> you better be happy about that
21:14:33  <Alberth> :D
21:15:25  <planetmaker> hehe
21:15:28  <planetmaker> hi Taede
21:17:10  <Taede> Xaroth: its not in use yet (that i know of), but its not far off
21:20:44  <planetmaker> Xaroth, basically we've prepared the server. We just need to switch the DNS to point to the new VM
21:22:22  <Taede> theres a few commands missing (mainly wrt to password-keys and the endgame transfer) for the ps, other than that i think i got most
21:22:51  <planetmaker> Taede, the !transfer command is basically just a shell script being called
21:22:57  <Taede> yup
21:23:23  <planetmaker> Is there support to add a generic command e.g. by having an identically-named shell script in a scripts folder or so?
21:24:08  <Taede> not really
21:28:43  <Taede> i may look into that, i just have to work out how those scripts would intereact with active connections
21:28:44  <planetmaker> well, not that important. Only nice-to-have :-)
21:29:01  <planetmaker> don't look into it before we actually start using it. It's v1.5 or 2.0 :)
21:29:06  <Taede> hehe
21:29:13  <Taede> v2 will be more modular
21:29:22  <planetmaker> as usual :P
21:29:25  <Taede> but it will be a long time before i get that done
21:29:42  <Taede> v1 is fairly monolithic, but it works well
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21:31:13  <planetmaker> that's more important than modular :-)
21:31:39  <planetmaker> modular but not working wouldn't help us get along :-)
21:32:15  <Taede> nop, i just have a lot more to learn to make that work well
21:32:56  <planetmaker> :-)
21:33:00  <Taede> on a related note: content update currently executes and then immediately sends rcon-end packet
21:33:13  <Taede> can this rcon end packet be delayed untill the content connection is established?
21:34:20  <Taede> or wiht the connection-established being an event within openttd, will this prove difficult?
21:34:26  <Rubidium> not really. All DNS resolution is done in a separate thread as it can take a while before that's done
21:34:59  <Taede> fair enough, not really important anyway
21:35:00  <Rubidium> there is some internal callback somewhere though
21:36:58  <Taede> threads are always fun
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21:54:53  <michi_cc> Can anybody check if current trunk together with still needs any other work around for compiling on OS X 10.9 with the 10.9 SDK (e.g. libstdc++)?
21:55:46  <andythenorth> not now, but tomorrow if you remind me :)
21:55:54  <andythenorth> unless someone else gets there first :P
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22:34:09  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r25940 /extra/website (4 files in 3 dirs) (2013-11-04 21:44:04 UTC)
22:34:10  <DorpsGek> [website] -Change: Dissolve the 'links' page into 'development', 'contact' and a new 'community' page.
22:35:14  <peter1138> Is ruby just really slow, or is it gitlab?
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22:42:40  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25941 /extra/website (12 files in 7 dirs) (2013-11-04 21:52:33 UTC)
22:42:41  <DorpsGek> [Website] -Update: bananas versions, blacklist
22:42:42  <DorpsGek> [Website] -Fix: https everywhere, erroneously cached pages
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23:08:55  <Eddi|zuHause> "erroneously cached pages" <-- is that the "login page is in japanese" thing?
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23:14:01  <frosch123> i guess it were some attempts about that
23:14:12  <frosch123> anyway, all of that stuff was done months ago
23:14:28  <frosch123> only now committed :p
23:22:43  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i guessed as much
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23:44:22  <Wolf01> 'night
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