Log for #openttd on 27th November 2013:
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00:41:34  <Wolf01> 'night
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01:41:12  <geoffreybeene> HELLO openttd friends!
01:41:20  <geoffreybeene> i am happy to see so many people in this channel, and hope not everyone is idling
01:42:39  <Superuser> sorry to disappoint you
01:42:41  <Superuser> everyone is idling :P
01:42:50  <geoffreybeene> how tragic
01:42:57  <LordAro> indeed
01:43:11  <geoffreybeene> I just discovered this game last week and am becoming rapidly obsessed
01:43:12  <LordAro> also doesn't help that you've lost/about to lose the europeans
01:43:21  <geoffreybeene> it scratches an itch i never knew existed
01:45:09  <geoffreybeene> am i too enthusiastic
01:45:29  <geoffreybeene> i just want to talk railroad layout theory and design, and learn tips
01:45:30  <LordAro> just a little ;)
01:45:58  <LordAro> other than Superuser, this channel goes a bit dead around this time
01:46:01  <geoffreybeene> no one's so excited about the game anymore?
01:46:02  <geoffreybeene> ah ok
01:46:16  <geoffreybeene> That's a friggin' ton of idlers
01:46:21  <LordAro> oh yes
01:46:25  <alluke> yes
01:46:29  <Superuser> I am, I just suck at it :P
01:46:39  <geoffreybeene> so do i my friend, we have that in common
01:46:42  <alluke> there should be autodisconnect after 1 hour of idling
01:46:54  <LordAro> half of these people are just long forogetten bouncers, still ticking away
01:47:07  <LordAro> alluke: that wouldn't be very helpful, to anyone
01:47:10  <Superuser> xaxa yep
01:47:12  <geoffreybeene> Can I ask a simple question then?  What mapsize do you like to use?
01:47:14  <LordAro> a day or 2, maybe
01:47:18  <alluke> why not
01:47:22  <geoffreybeene> I just tried 512x512 for the first time and it seems monstrous
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01:47:34  <LordAro> geoffreybeene: try 2048^2 then :p
01:47:36  <alluke> hey
01:47:44  <geoffreybeene> i feel like 95% of the industries would just disappear
01:47:53  <alluke> tell me what to build into my game and ill provide you a screenshot of that
01:48:22  <geoffreybeene> a cross-island passenger distribution system
01:48:27  <geoffreybeene> no airplanes
01:48:35  <geoffreybeene> passengers must go from one side of the map to the other
01:48:49  <alluke> train-ship-train or so?
01:48:55  <geoffreybeene> train bus train
01:49:20  <alluke> whats the point
01:49:27  <geoffreybeene> what's the point of anything in a sandbox game?
01:49:32  <geoffreybeene> because it's fun
01:49:35  <alluke> trains can go same routes as buses
01:49:49  <alluke> only water can stop them
01:49:51  <geoffreybeene> maybe a bus can get passengers from parts of the city your stations cant
01:50:00  <geoffreybeene> i'm new to the game so idk
01:50:08  <alluke> indeed
01:50:18  <alluke> from other side of big city to other
01:50:27  <alluke> ill see if thats possible in my current game
01:50:31  <glx> 512x512 is indeed big for the first time
01:51:10  <alluke> do metros count as trains?
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01:53:07  <geoffreybeene> sure
01:53:37  <geoffreybeene> whats multiplayer likew?
01:53:40  <geoffreybeene> is it really competitive
01:53:48  <geoffreybeene> it seems more fun but is intimidating
01:53:58  <alluke> boring
01:54:05  <alluke> there arent proper servers with proper newgrfs
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01:54:30  <geoffreybeene> I haven't tried any newgrfs yet
01:54:33  <geoffreybeene> or an AI
01:54:40  <geoffreybeene> i hear NARS2 is cool
01:54:51  <alluke> i dont like it
01:55:16  <alluke> company colours and unrealistic specs
01:55:29  <geoffreybeene> what would you recommend?  any recommendations on an I too
01:55:31  <geoffreybeene> AI*
01:55:45  <geoffreybeene> Sorry for so many Q's but I am quite excited about this game
01:56:43  <alluke> well there are many good country-specific train sets
01:56:53  <alluke> where do you live?
01:56:58  <geoffreybeene> USA
01:57:23  <alluke> then i recommed you us train set and canadian train set
01:58:08  <alluke>
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01:58:46  <alluke>
01:59:04  <glx> easier to recommand stuff in bananas
01:59:17  <alluke> those arent in bananas :(
01:59:26  <glx> I know
02:06:01  <geoffreybeene> any general tips newbies should know?
02:06:07  <geoffreybeene> i just found out about the advanced orders you can give
02:06:17  <geoffreybeene> experimenting with 3 way junctions
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02:06:43  <glx> always start with a coal service
02:06:48  <glx> (money maker)
02:07:33  <alluke> ive always started with pasx
02:07:46  <alluke> passengers
02:07:47  <geoffreybeene> I've eben setting up coal
02:07:51  <geoffreybeene> and then some buses in towns i like to promote growth
02:08:00  <geoffreybeene> planes seem like cheat money so i've been avoiding them
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02:29:28  <geoffreybeene> is there an easy guesstimate for train HP = total tonnage
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02:33:56  <alluke> depends on the speed
02:34:56  <alluke> for shunting 1000 tons at 35 kmh you dont need much more than 1000 hp
02:35:07  <alluke> but mass and tractive effort
02:36:47  <geoffreybeene> teh more mass a train pulls the more likely it'll break down right?
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02:37:38  <alluke> ops
02:37:57  <alluke> i have breakdowns always turned off
02:38:01  <alluke> theyre just annoying
02:38:04  <geoffreybeene> yea they are
02:38:07  <geoffreybeene> maybe ill do that
02:38:17  <geoffreybeene> i dont feel like a lot of awesome gameplay is being contributed by them
02:38:30  <alluke> yep
02:45:27  <alluke> the off-topic section has some 'interesting' topics
02:46:03  <Japa_> I want an indian train set, but the only way I'll get one is making one, and I'm pretty shit at pixel art
02:46:45  <alluke> practise :P
02:48:08  <alluke> the finnish train set took over 8 years to get released
02:48:37  <Japa_> heh.
02:49:06  <Japa_> My attempts just end up looking like matchboxes.
02:50:25  <alluke> more detail
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02:57:18  <Japa_>
02:57:20  <Japa_> Example
02:57:48  <Japa_> Then I tried 3d and it was even worse.
02:59:11  <Superuser> zbase
02:59:13  <Superuser> u so pretty
02:59:15  <Superuser> daym
02:59:25  <Superuser> time to fap
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03:00:29  <alluke> the 8bpp doesnt look bad at all
03:00:48  <alluke> and zbase is ugly i gotta admit
03:02:32  <Japa_> I kinda want to draw a zbased sized 8bpp sprite, but I fear that would be beyond my abilities to make it not suck
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03:04:35  <geoffreybeene> What year do buses show up?
03:04:40  <geoffreybeene> I'm 1931 and just got a plane, but no bus
03:04:44  <ZacoOne> hello everyone
03:04:59  <geoffreybeene> hey ZacoOne
03:05:06  <alluke> around 40s iirc
03:05:25  <alluke> some newgrfs buses even earlier
03:05:31  <alluke> from 1900s
03:05:41  <ZacoOne> how do i share my first completed game?
03:06:10  <alluke> upload the .sav somewhere and share a link
03:06:17  <geoffreybeene> you can complete the game?
03:07:09  <alluke> the game "ends" at 2050 which means that you get a poster about the winner and then the playing continues like nothing happened
03:07:11  <ZacoOne> well i reached 2051. it's not really complete i guess
03:07:32  <Japa_> What's the default starting year?
03:07:42  <ZacoOne> 1950
03:07:48  <Japa_> thanks.
03:07:54  <ZacoOne> np
03:08:38  <Japa_> starting earlier than that with some nice newgrfs can be pretty fun, but if you make the mistake of turning on inflation, you get !!FUN!!
03:09:38  <ZacoOne> is there a preffered upload site or will any do?
03:09:54  <Japa_> Depends what you're uploading.
03:09:56  <alluke> forums, dropbox ftp
03:10:13  <Japa_> google drive works too
03:10:15  <geoffreybeene> I started at 1925 with default grf
03:10:22  <geoffreybeene> it's fun just having steam engines all over the place right now
03:10:53  <ZacoOne> cool thx. i think i'll try ttforums first
03:10:56  <alluke> i recommed getting dropbox but you can make new topic to the forums and post the save there
03:10:59  <Japa_> 1850 with a newgrf that gives period engines and horse carts. Good times.
03:11:02  <alluke> ok
03:11:20  <alluke> horse carts that dont work with realistic acceleration >:(
03:13:38  <Japa_> Also don't have realistic stats. 1 horse carriage: 15HP
03:13:38  <Japa_> or something like that
03:14:05  <geoffreybeene> Does it matter what order on the list your Conditional orders are?
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03:17:23  <alluke> doh
03:17:31  <alluke> 4:20 went 7 minutes ago
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03:20:03  <ZacoOne> I would like to share my sav. I hope I'm not breaking any rules by posting here (I'm sure someone will chastise me if I am, please forgive).
03:21:02  <alluke> at least its the correct subforum
03:22:19  <ZacoOne> Is there a specific location for me to do this?
03:22:44  <alluke> its fine
03:22:53  <alluke> i see you used maglevs
03:23:36  <alluke> weird way of building you have
03:23:59  <ZacoOne> yes sir! after watching hours of youtube and reading this is what i came up with.
03:24:45  <alluke> hah
03:24:48  <ZacoOne> I definately want to improve so please let me know where I an make corrections
03:24:55  <geoffreybeene> these implicit orders are screwing me up--I connected two large cities by rail to ecarry passengers
03:24:57  <alluke> i can share some of my old 64x64 games
03:24:59  <alluke> just for lulz
03:25:00  <geoffreybeene> there are 3 cities in between
03:25:13  <geoffreybeene> I want the train to go between the two end cities, but if it hits 100% load percentage, to go nonstop to the end
03:25:42  <ZacoOne> that would be greatly appreciated. I have a long way to go...
03:26:29  <geoffreybeene> I'm with you Zaco
03:26:32  <geoffreybeene> I'm a noob
03:27:08  <alluke>
03:27:16  <ZacoOne> Good to know I'm not alone!
03:27:18  <alluke> thats only for fun
03:27:22  <alluke> cheated money
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03:28:33  <ZacoOne> yes with the airports. i want to attempt with coal as the money maker next time
03:30:33  <ZacoOne> i've been getting the "missing files" error. how do i fix that
03:31:17  <alluke> add the files
03:31:26  <alluke> there should be the check online content button
03:33:23  <ZacoOne> I dl all online content. i playing version 1.3.2. is not compatable?
03:34:32  <ZacoOne> oh ok.  get it! which newgrf are you using?
03:34:45  <alluke> which are you missing?
03:36:36  <ZacoOne> none. all online content is accounted for. are newgrfs elsewhere that i don't know about?
03:39:29  <ZacoOne> i dont have any currently active though they are downloaded.
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03:50:09  <geoffreybeene> How do you upgrade your HQ?
03:50:12  <geoffreybeene> Just company value?
03:50:54  <geoffreybeene> Zaco: re coal as moneymaker, I started the game in 1925 and set up 4 routes, 2 Coal routes with 3 mines each, and 2 iron routes with 3 mines each
03:51:07  <geoffreybeene> Making over 400k a year by 1927
03:57:12  <Superuser> GUISE
03:57:17  <Superuser> ITS HAPPENING
03:57:17  <Superuser>
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10:08:53  <dihedral> hello gents
10:11:43  <Xaroth|Work> o/
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13:55:13  <djgummikuh> Hey!
13:56:07  <djgummikuh> some days back I asked around here for gamescript functions to alter company balance. The API in 1.3.2 only has limited support for that, someone here (I hate my bad memory) told me that the next version of OpenTTD would have extended support - my question is, does 1.3.3-RC2 already have this extended Script support?
13:56:41  <Xaroth|Work> it should if it was planned for 1.3.3
13:56:49  <Xaroth|Work> else it's not due for 1.3.3
13:57:12  <djgummikuh> I assume it is. SOmeone here showed me a javadoc page or something with these functions, do you know where that is?
13:57:51  <Xaroth|Work> me? no, I only work with the admin port
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13:58:12  <Xaroth|Work> haven't looked at nogo since it was designed
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14:02:34  <kostiak> hey, anyone around?
14:02:52  <Xaroth|Work> define 'around'
14:03:10  <kostiak> I'm trying to run the USA scenario and I can't figure out how
14:03:25  <kostiak> I mean i downloaded it and it starts, but I can't build any stations of any kind
14:04:22  <kostiak> any idea?
14:05:43  <Xaroth|Work> none what-so-ever
14:05:50  <Xaroth|Work> but I'm probably not the best person to ask
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14:08:19  <kostiak> anybody else here?
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14:14:45  <planetmaker> djgummikuh, the changelog is available for those versions :-)
14:14:55  <planetmaker> Generally new features are only due in major version,s though
14:15:49  <planetmaker> kostiak, I don't know that scenario. But there's a couple of broken scenarios which start too early, so that no vehicles are around
14:16:05  <planetmaker> try to date-cheat yourself forward to 1950 and see whether you then have vehicles available
14:16:14  <kostiak> when should the earlist vehicles be around?
14:16:30  <planetmaker> depends on choice of newgrf. default vehicles start around 1930s
14:17:53  <kostiak> ok yeah, edited it so it starts in 1930 and have bus stops now
14:17:54  <kostiak> thanks
14:18:08  <kostiak> never understood newgrfs really :(
14:19:12  <planetmaker> well. this is not about newgrfs now. The scenario designer clearly set a wrong date for the scenario
14:20:02  <kostiak> i think he used some other newgrfs
14:20:39  <kostiak> but his post is in german, and with the google translation coupled with my total lack of newgrf knowledge, no idea what to do to make it work properly
14:22:30  <planetmaker> link?
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14:27:11  <kostiak> planetmaker:
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14:32:55  <planetmaker> ah. well. I guess that's one of those scenarios where the authors thought it's a good idea if you modify NewGRF settings before you actually start
14:35:37  <planetmaker> sadly modifying NewGRFs on an existing map makes it easy to wreak havoc with the map
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14:39:11  <djgummikuh> planetmaker: so where do you have the API Doc for the game scripts
14:39:14  <djgummikuh> btw what is NoGo?
14:39:20  <djgummikuh> is that the name of the Scripting language?
14:39:34  <djgummikuh> Xaroth|Work: what exactly do you do via the admin port?
14:40:11  <djgummikuh> I would like to take or give money from / to a company via the admin port
14:43:11  <planetmaker> NoGo is another name for game scripts
14:43:46  <planetmaker> is your friend for the docs
14:44:20  <Xaroth|Work> djgummikuh: the admin port does not do that, however, it can communicate with nogo scripts who can then facilitate actions (like giving/taking money)
14:44:36  <Xaroth|Work> and I made one of the libraries around that implement the admin port protocol
14:45:36  <planetmaker> Join #openttdcoop to see how it's used to manage the servers ;-)
14:45:49  <planetmaker> but then, not much to see really
14:46:29  <Xaroth|Work> i should actually hop by there every now and then
14:46:39  <planetmaker> totally :-)
14:46:57  <planetmaker> honestly, I'm not sure whether our PublicServer already uses Soap or not yet
14:47:05  <Xaroth|Work> hehe
14:47:09  <planetmaker> but the Welcome server and ProZone do
14:47:13  <Xaroth|Work> nice
14:47:21  <planetmaker> indeed, very nice
14:47:29  <planetmaker> Taede does an excellent job there
14:47:35  <Xaroth|Work> single bot instance, or multiple bots?
14:47:41  <planetmaker> one bot, multiple servers
14:47:44  <Xaroth|Work> nice
14:47:57  <planetmaker> yup
14:58:37  <djgummikuh> ok regarding
14:58:51  <djgummikuh> "trunk" -> does that resemble upcoming 1.3.3 or 1.4?
14:59:05  <planetmaker> current development branch. thus -> 1.4
14:59:37  <djgummikuh> ok I'm asking because there is no 1.3.3 on the page.. only 1.3.2
15:00:15  <planetmaker> well. There *is* no 1.3.3. So why should it be there?
15:00:39  <djgummikuh> because it's coming up and ppl might want to adapt their scripts pre-release?
15:00:53  <djgummikuh> anyways :-( I need this setBalance functions from 1.4
15:01:09  <djgummikuh> but I don't want to wait another year or whatever it takes for openttd to reach 1.4 :-/
15:01:16  <planetmaker> wait for 1.4.0-beta1... :-)
15:01:38  <planetmaker> and looking at the past release cycles that's not too far off ;-)
15:02:16  <djgummikuh> Is there any tutorial for NoGo <-> Admin Port interaction or for NoGo programming in general?
15:02:38  <Xaroth|Work> nogo <-> admin port interaction is just 2 small things, sending and receiving
15:02:40  <planetmaker> Not that I know of. They can communicate via JSON
15:02:41  <Xaroth|Work> both sides need to be aware
15:02:58  <planetmaker> and ^
15:03:18  <djgummikuh> ok but I generously would describe my experience with NoGo as Level "0"
15:03:45  <djgummikuh> or actually, for 0-based countings, -1
15:05:17  <planetmaker> djgummikuh, if you have experience with AI writing: most things work identical
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15:06:17  <djgummikuh> well my experience with writing ANYTHING (but a company name) for OpenTTD is about the same level
15:06:38  <djgummikuh> I am developer though so I'd expect to catch on quite quick but I best learn with tutorials or examples to take from
15:07:39  <planetmaker> there's a decent number of examples around. After all, every instance of a script is an example, it#s a script language
15:08:09  <planetmaker> and I've seen so far only gpl-licensed scripts, so you'll not have trouble to actually learn from them and even build on them
15:08:38  <planetmaker> <-- has a couple of AI and GS scripts and libraries
15:09:04  <planetmaker> might be the better repository browser, though
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15:32:27  <djgummikuh> planetmaker: woah can you please point me to an actual script there? I found some AIs but some of these Projects are C++?
15:33:59  <djgummikuh> hmm... any chance that I can convince somene to write a game script for me? ;D
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15:35:07  <planetmaker> djgummikuh, I don't say that every project there is a GS or AI. Those GS projects tend to start with "gs" and the ai projects with "ai"
15:35:29  <planetmaker> and no, both must be written in squirrel; other languages simply don't work for GS or AI
15:36:17  <djgummikuh> mmh ok. I expected all .nut files to be squrirel but there are Mode: C++ logs in it and the syntax clearly looks like C++ as well (Class::function etc)
15:36:30  <djgummikuh> Mode: C++ comments, not logs, sorry
15:37:13  <Xaroth|Work> the C comment style is used in more than just C :)
15:37:23  <djgummikuh> no
15:39:05  <djgummikuh> that's what I mean: /* -*- Mode: C++; tab-width: 6 -*- */
15:39:19  <djgummikuh>
15:39:42  <peter1138> That's a editor instruction, not code.
15:39:52  <djgummikuh> ah ok. nevermind then :)
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17:28:12  <knadyy> dam this pussy looks like exotic fruit
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17:32:00  <Vinnie_nl> Hello guys, is it me or does the login at flyspray take a long time to proces?
17:32:15  <Vinnie_nl> trying to get a bug report added
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17:42:00  <LordAro> Vinnie_nl: not usually, iirc
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17:58:56  <zydeco> greetings, comrades
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18:26:19  <Eddi|zuHause> oooh, widelands actually got ships now
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18:33:45  <zydeco> I patched the PNG heightmap export/import so it preserves rivers
18:33:54  <zydeco> but it only imports rivers if it has a certain text chunk
18:34:45  <zydeco> maybe it should check the palette instead, and it would be more useful
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18:39:48  <Japa> zydeco, why not just always assume a river if the red and green channels are zero?
18:40:49  <zydeco> right now I'm using the palette index
18:40:59  <zydeco> so the low 4 bits are height, and the 5th is river
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18:42:30  <Japa> That works for palleted images, I guess. I was thinking about RGB images.
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18:45:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Japa: the general idea was to have several image files and a description file that selects which file means which. they can be put into directories/tar-files to keep them together
18:46:13  <Eddi|zuHause> so you have one image that shows the height, one image that shows the rivers, one image that shows the roads, etc.
18:48:09  <Eddi|zuHause> where "description file" means some sort of .ini format, like .obg/.obm etc.
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18:48:43  <Eddi|zuHause> pretty much all code for that is there, just has to be assembled :p
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18:49:00  <Eddi|zuHause> there is a wiki page somewhere
18:49:37  <Alberth>
18:50:01  <Alberth> assuming that's the topic :)
18:50:37  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but Japa_ probably missed my lines :p
18:51:07  <Eddi|zuHause> @logs
18:51:07  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause:
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19:19:34  <Wolf01> yeah, finally :D
19:20:31  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
19:22:43  <Alberth> hi hi
19:22:55  <Wolf01> quak frosch123
19:23:16  <frosch123> moin
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19:43:17  <Taede> evening
19:44:06  <Alberth> evenink
19:46:14  <LordAro> /o
19:46:40  <zydeco> o\
19:46:50  <Alberth> o-
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20:16:22  <Superuser> This is the final evolution of the tycoon genre:
20:16:22  <Superuser>
20:17:43  <TinoDidriksen> Hmm, that depends. Has anyone done a Porn Tycoon? If not, that is clearly missing before we can consider the genre closed.
20:18:05  <Superuser> Rules 34 + 35
20:18:07  <Rubidium> really?
20:18:12  <Rubidium> what about Godwin?
20:18:24  <Superuser> Utilitarian tycoon?
20:18:47  <TinoDidriksen> Concentration Camp Tycoon? We have that Prison..something management game.
20:19:11  <Superuser> Prison Architect
20:19:15  <TinoDidriksen> That's the one
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20:25:09  <Alberth> what about a tycoon game about making tycoon games?
20:26:14  <frosch123> i think there is
20:26:19  <frosch123> game dev tycoon or so
20:34:03  *** Fira [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:37:22  <peter1138> That's the one where if you pirate it, you can't win...
20:40:36  <__ln__> what about a tycoon game about making free software?
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20:44:36  <peter1138> No money in it...
20:45:21  <__ln__> Red Hat would disagree, but yeah, I was more like thinking about a Stallman simulation.
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21:09:59  <andythenorth> o/
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21:19:53  <V453000> hm for some reason multiple people already told me that trunk under windoze sez virus danger, unsafe, etc bullcrap ... got any clues on that? :D
21:20:08  <V453000> I mean I always knew openttd isnt safe for your brain but for your pc its like a cure? :P
21:21:29  <frosch123> the nsa certificate expired
21:21:41  <frosch123> so it warns that the transmission in insecure
21:21:49  <V453000> : D
21:21:54  <V453000> wat
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21:24:06  <glx> V453000: they all use the same antivirus ?
21:24:11  <frosch123> well, if i google for "openttd" and "virus" i certainly end up a some malware sites
21:24:19  <V453000> didnt ask which glx
21:25:21  <frosch123> wow, this site is awesome
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21:26:16  <frosch123> it's a template text which apparently can insert any application name (in this case "openttd.exe")
21:26:26  <frosch123> and warn you about it, and tell you to download something to fix it :p
21:26:54  <frosch123> "openttd.exe is a legitimate windows process used by many applications of Windows operating systems. So it is not a problem in most cases if you see several even copies of this process running in your background because they plays a core role for the connected programs. In most case, openttd.exe process is safe in supporting the programs which require this process/file in order to function correctly. However this process may have more
21:26:55  <frosch123> than one variants and one of them may be spyware or malware. To be sure we suggest that you scan your system for openttd.exe errors."
21:27:11  <Xaroth|Work> lolz
21:27:17  <frosch123> and so on, more than 5 screen pages
21:27:25  <Xaroth|Work> actually quite good spelling for crapware
21:27:27  <frosch123> with various screenshots and even a video
21:27:36  <frosch123> the application name is blurred out on those though
21:33:02  <glx> frosch123: I guess their tool has the MS certified logo :)
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21:34:19  <V453000> lol ^
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21:46:49  <alluke> i fokken love dc++
21:49:27  <Xaroth|Work> 1990 called, they want their software back.
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21:57:02  <Kjetil> Well.. The 90's can sodd off. This is our transport simulator
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22:09:39  <planetmaker> nice. there we have again the undo knob:
22:10:19  <Taede> could always class it as a cheat
22:10:30  <Taede> just means you cant use it in mp
22:10:41  <planetmaker> it actually technically doesn't work
22:10:47  <planetmaker> the game state is changed
22:10:53  <planetmaker> things evolved
22:11:16  <Taede> true
22:11:32  <Taede> trains dont like it when rails suddenly dissappear from beneath them
22:11:34  <planetmaker> openttd doesn't remember what was done either
22:11:42  <planetmaker> for instance
22:12:30  <alluke> rotate
22:12:35  <alluke> how would that work
22:12:37  <planetmaker> draw 2000 sprites
22:12:40  <alluke> in 2d game
22:12:41  <alluke> xD
22:12:43  <planetmaker> and then also for all newgrfs
22:12:58  <planetmaker> not impossible. But ... a stretch
22:13:11  <alluke> multirail bridges would be nice
22:13:24  <andythenorth> why?
22:13:34  <andythenorth> I didn't understand the double tracked bridges request
22:13:36  <alluke> but they should recognize that theres another bridge next to them and then load matching sprites
22:13:48  <andythenorth> so a visual thing?
22:13:49  <planetmaker> newgrf bridges
22:13:56  <alluke> visual yes
22:14:00  <andythenorth> k
22:15:12  <planetmaker> Taede, with undo you also have fun when terraforming, e.g. when a single click tears down a whole piece of a mountain or floods some plains as you killed a dike
22:15:55  <andythenorth> undo is for MS word
22:16:00  <andythenorth> not for a game
22:16:04  <planetmaker> also building affects your standing with local authority, tree growth, ...
22:16:12  <planetmaker> in single player your have autosaves :-)
22:16:13  <andythenorth> it's fricking insane
22:16:23  <andythenorth> we'd have to diff state for every single state change
22:16:31  <andythenorth> even diffing it, the memory usage would be bonkers
22:17:04  <andythenorth> it's not 'undo'
22:17:06  <andythenorth> it's 'rewind'
22:19:44  <planetmaker> thus the culprit basically is: "what do you mean with 'undo'?"
22:20:06  <planetmaker> and then a full rewind is not feasible. And just un-building stuff would cause more harm than gain
22:20:58  <planetmaker> maybe not harm. But sadness and annoyance
22:21:24  <planetmaker> though it might harm my sanity :-P
22:22:08  <planetmaker> "no, it's undo, not rewind. It doesn't reverse the effects of the action, just the action. Like if you stab s/o, pulling out the knife won't fix it"
22:22:23  <andythenorth> rewind would be plausible, if you had enough memory, or dumped to disk
22:22:40  <planetmaker> yes
22:22:53  <andythenorth> and there were no unexpected engineering changes
22:22:55  <planetmaker> but that's basically what autosaves are for
22:23:03  <andythenorth> oic :)
22:23:10  <andythenorth> autosave :D
22:23:14  <planetmaker> though transferring the whole game to a new memory buffer also takes time. you notice it
22:23:25  <andythenorth> autosave every 1s? :P
22:24:00  <planetmaker> every 2 minutes is fastest IIRC
22:24:33  <andythenorth> so the game is a very complicated dynamic simulation containing many many state machines *and* randomised stuff
22:24:40  <andythenorth> whereas MS word, only I make changes :P
22:24:49  <andythenorth> so state is only changed by my actions
22:25:06  <planetmaker> basically that's what we use on our main server ;-) Every minute actually
22:25:10  <andythenorth> I guess this stuff is non-obvious unless you've been around code for a year or two
22:25:24  <planetmaker> it's totally not obvious, indeed
22:25:39  <planetmaker> you click, something happens. Same in MS word
22:26:27  <planetmaker> actually... rewind in steps of one minute is not *that* bad, is it?
22:26:33  <glx> but in MS word there are only user actions
22:26:52  <planetmaker> yes, glx *we* know that slight but important difference
22:27:04  <planetmaker> but it's not obvious
22:27:06  <andythenorth> well you might have an MS word macro-virus :P
22:27:09  <andythenorth> changing your doc
22:27:12  <planetmaker> haha :-)
22:27:16  <andythenorth> or some kind of collaborative editing crap
22:27:24  <andythenorth> Word In The Cloud
22:27:36  <andythenorth> I hate using undo in Google docs :P
22:27:43  <planetmaker> I wonder whether one could abuse the autosaves to allow for in-game rollback. Nice interface and probably half of these questions would not occor
22:28:02  <andythenorth> planetmaker: does gimp have a history palette?
22:28:05  <andythenorth> photoshop does
22:28:19  <glx> in word I remember you couldn't edit a document open by someone else
22:28:20  <andythenorth> it's last 32 or so actions, click the one you want
22:28:24  <planetmaker> it does have history. What's a history palette? selective undo of past steps?
22:28:36  <andythenorth> I can never figure out how selective it is :P
22:28:57  <andythenorth> but yeah, simple version is just rollback to a recent version, UI is a simple list
22:29:08  <glx> usually when I undo it's the latest changes
22:29:22  <andythenorth>
22:30:09  <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes it seems to have that. I never noticed or used it though. It's called 'journal'
22:30:23  <andythenorth> yeah journal is fitting
22:30:29  <andythenorth> like your HD
22:30:40  <andythenorth> aggressive autosave = journal
22:30:49  <andythenorth> go backwards in the journal at your own risk
22:31:08  <glx> yeah like restauration points
22:31:22  <planetmaker> yup
22:31:52  <andythenorth> see, even silly suggestions sometimes produce solutions, eh?
22:32:29  <glx> for openttd autosaves should be enough ;)
22:32:48  <planetmaker> it's not exactly silly. Just ignorant. And that's not something to call him stupid for
22:33:06  <andythenorth> yeah, point well made
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22:43:11  <frosch123> night
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23:05:32  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:07:32  <andythenorth> bye
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