Log for #openttd on 28th December 2013:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:01:16  *** Ristovski [~rafael@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
00:07:42  *** Chrill [] has quit []
00:19:02  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has quit []
00:30:12  *** Supercheese [~Superchee@] has joined #openttd
00:34:19  *** Haube [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
00:37:40  *** Devroush367 [] has quit []
00:42:45  *** yorick [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:19:11  <Wolf01> 'night
01:19:16  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
02:05:51  *** Progman_ [] has joined #openttd
02:13:15  *** Progman [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:13:29  *** Progman_ is now known as Progman
02:23:40  *** roadt [~roadt@] has joined #openttd
02:35:44  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
02:42:55  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has joined #openttd
02:49:41  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:27:59  *** Belugas [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:28:15  *** Belugas [~belugas@] has joined #openttd
03:28:18  *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ
03:38:20  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
03:44:48  *** Japa__ [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:52:03  *** glx [] has quit [Quit: Bye]
09:25:31  *** SpBot [] has joined #openttd
09:26:10  *** SpComb^ [] has joined #openttd
09:30:07  *** Japa__ [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
09:36:34  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:58:17  <andythenorth> ho ho
09:58:18  <andythenorth>
09:58:38  <andythenorth> conditional order: "this train is weak and underpowered, go via the flat route"
09:58:40  <andythenorth> etc :P
10:01:38  <Alberth> lol, let's just have one order, shared by all trains :p
10:03:40  <andythenorth> I think so
10:03:41  <Alberth> I wonder how this relates with programmable signals
10:03:42  <andythenorth> preferably, magic
10:03:55  <andythenorth> move all the orders off the vehicles and into programmable signals
10:04:12  <andythenorth> instead of having distributed agents, try and centralise everything with some kind of master control program
10:04:15  <andythenorth> always goes well
10:04:34  <Alberth> fs 5432 is the result of too much sharing of orders, probably
10:04:49  <andythenorth> this FS is wrong, but points at consists imo
10:07:48  <Alberth> I don't see that
10:09:01  <andythenorth> he found cloning difficult, he wants a way to add vehicles to shared orders with single click?
10:09:16  <andythenorth> hmm, as we don't have a definition for consists, maybe I withdraw that comment :)
10:11:14  <Alberth> consist is a train with a pre-defined sequence of wagons, imho
10:12:13  <Alberth> he wants a way to add vehicles to shared orders with single click? <-- that's what I read too
10:12:57  <andythenorth> so instances of a consist might have different order sets?
10:12:58  <Alberth> although I don't understand "without local changes"
10:13:39  <Alberth> sure, I'd like a "wood haul consist" for every forest -> saw mill route
10:13:57  *** valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
10:14:05  <andythenorth> ok, so consists and orders are not 1:1 relation
10:14:13  <andythenorth> but maybe consists are another day :)
10:14:47  <andythenorth> fonsinchen: I'm trying to test an edge case for your refit fix, articulated vehicles - mentioned by rubi here
10:14:49  <Alberth> eg a pax consist for every local pax route, and another one for longer distances
10:14:59  <andythenorth> can't find any vehicle sets with support yet :P
10:16:46  <Alberth> re 5407, if you want a really exact copy, it should have shared orders only when the original had shared orders, but that's highly complicated for the user
10:17:36  <andythenorth> yup
10:17:48  <andythenorth> exact copy is a misleading issue
10:17:57  <andythenorth> as the word clone might also be misleading
10:20:08  <andythenorth> hmm, an assert :P
10:20:30  <Alberth> yay, you broke openttd :)
10:21:49  <andythenorth> prize for me
10:23:50  *** oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
10:27:43  <andythenorth> this looks interesting
10:27:50  <andythenorth> almost worth seeing if the patch compiles
10:28:48  <Alberth> ha, my car path is totally messed up: you want to go to x-256, so let's move y from 0 to 256, and keep x at 128  :P
10:29:25  <andythenorth> oic :)
10:29:46  <andythenorth> why not do it all in vectors, and make it extra complicated?
10:30:12  <andythenorth> that's how I used to do it in flash :P
10:30:24  <Alberth> I use bezier curves, does that count too?
10:30:40  <andythenorth> certainly
10:32:03  <andythenorth> are you moving the cars in a 3D space, or just making them follow paths on the screen?
10:32:04  <Alberth> sbr usually makes working patches :)
10:32:14  <Alberth> 3d space
10:32:38  <andythenorth> probably more correct in the long run
10:32:39  <Alberth> the window doesn't look right, it should be in the order window itself
10:33:02  <Alberth> otherwise you'll never get the spirally stuff right
10:33:21  <Alberth> and 3d makes that you can compute gravity etc
10:33:21  <andythenorth> you don't have to do perspective also though?  It's iso?
10:34:23  <Alberth> I compute where the car is supposed to be in 3D, then translate that coordinate to 2D, and blit the car at that position
10:34:29  *** Ristovski [~rafael@] has joined #openttd
10:35:02  <Alberth> I still need to compute orientation, and use that to select the right car sprite
10:36:02  <andythenorth> sounds like trigonometry
10:36:10  <Alberth> it is :p
10:36:14  <andythenorth> I always tried to resolve game problems to simple trig
10:36:19  <andythenorth> I can manage that kind of thing
10:36:24  <Alberth> :o
10:36:44  <Alberth> you want to derive yaw and pitch from roll? :)
10:36:45  <andythenorth> I mean orientations and movement code and such :)
10:36:54  <Alberth> and the derivative of the path?
10:36:56  <andythenorth> everything I did was 2D
10:37:24  *** sla_ro|master2 [slamaster@] has joined #openttd
10:37:29  <andythenorth> and flash also has animation paths, so if at all possible, I would just get things to follow those
10:37:47  <andythenorth> you can cover a lot of sins by slaving to an animation path with some randomness
10:38:03  <Alberth> flash has them too? I know that svg has them, but they may have looked at flash thus
10:38:03  <andythenorth> allegedly mario kart does the same thing for AI players
10:38:17  <andythenorth> flash was originally an animation tool, then gained scripting
10:38:34  <andythenorth> so you make an object that moves around the track / level / whatever
10:38:40  <Alberth> nice :)
10:38:45  <andythenorth> animated, with stop/start control
10:38:52  <andythenorth> then track the x and y pos
10:38:59  <andythenorth> and vector towards it
10:39:25  <Alberth> making a usful AI is way too complicated, I can understand they cheat :)
10:39:33  <andythenorth> works well for enemy players in racing games etc
10:39:36  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
10:39:39  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
10:39:42  <andythenorth> also level monsters
10:39:44  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:39:55  <Alberth> makes sense
10:40:56  <andythenorth> so that cargo unload / load order thing looks interesting
10:41:08  <andythenorth> I think it's probably anti-cdist though
10:41:10  <andythenorth> but interesting
10:41:36  <Alberth> it's the right direction imho
10:41:48  <Alberth> except it shouldn't be a 2nd window
10:42:17  <Alberth> not sure how it is anti-cdist, cdist stays in limits you create
10:43:22  <Alberth> ie you don't give up control over the cargo flow, mostly
10:44:03  <Alberth> unlike yacd, where you get a cargo flow, and you have to make your network match the flow
10:44:29  <andythenorth> oh of course, this way we would have a nice deterministic link graph :)
10:44:31  <andythenorth> silly andythenorth
10:44:44  *** tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:46:28  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
10:59:39  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
10:59:54  *** roadt_ [~roadt@] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
11:00:11  <Wolf01> moin
11:03:09  *** sla_ro|master2 is now known as sla_ro|master
11:11:09  <Alberth> moin
11:18:18  *** Elukka [] has joined #openttd
11:25:58  *** Japa [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
11:27:34  *** Japa__ [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:32:54  <fonsinchen> Oh, miles of backlog ... :/
11:33:55  <andythenorth> just chat :)
11:34:11  <andythenorth> fonsinchen: I found a problem with the refit fix, and owe you a savegame
11:36:36  * andythenorth making one
11:37:12  <fonsinchen> Nice, thanks.
11:37:42  <fonsinchen> I think we should make a FS task to keep things organized. FS#4953 doesn't really fit.
11:37:46  <fonsinchen> I'll create one
11:38:21  <andythenorth> please
11:39:26  <andythenorth> I have a save now
11:39:43  <andythenorth> although I can't trigger the assert I saw last time I tested
11:41:26  <fonsinchen>
11:41:39  *** skyem123 [] has joined #openttd
11:41:53  <fonsinchen> Can you please add the savegame and whatever information you have about the assert there?
11:54:41  *** skyem123_ [] has joined #openttd
11:54:47  *** Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
11:55:03  *** skyem123 is now known as Guest1663
11:55:03  *** skyem123_ is now known as skyem123
11:59:09  <Alberth> bbl
11:59:23  *** Alberth [] has left #openttd []
11:59:46  *** retro|cz [] has joined #openttd
12:01:26  *** Guest1663 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:02:30  <andythenorth> fonsinchen: updated
12:02:31  *** DDR [~kvirc@] has quit [Quit: DDR is not Dance Dance Revolution.]
12:03:34  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
12:05:37  *** Japa [~Japa@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:07:16  *** Japa [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
12:24:43  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
12:46:51  *** skyem123 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:51:16  <andythenorth> urgh, FS reposted my form :P
13:00:04  *** Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
13:11:08  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
13:17:33  *** Japa [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:21:47  <andythenorth> trying to decide if seagulls would look good at ports
13:21:58  <andythenorth> or if they'd be stupid pixely blobs that look stuck on
13:22:05  <andythenorth> (animated flying seagulls)
13:23:40  <andythenorth> and whether sheep and cows in fields should move occasionally (as a herd / flock)
13:24:13  <Eddi|zuHause> didn't someone already make animated seagulls as objects?
13:24:45  <andythenorth> supercheese
13:24:48  * andythenorth tests them
13:26:50  <andythenorth> quite nice
13:26:59  <andythenorth> bit busy, they have to cycle constantly
13:27:52  <andythenorth> also bloody enormous, like flying sheep :)
13:27:57  <andythenorth> but nice grf anywya
13:29:51  *** Alberth [] has joined #openttd
13:29:54  *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
13:31:10  <Alberth> moin
13:38:17  *** Japa__ [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
13:44:30  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:44:54  * LordAro appears
13:45:19  *** yorick [] has joined #openttd
13:48:18  *** Stimrol [] has quit [Quit: ZNC -]
13:50:16  *** Stimrol [] has joined #openttd
14:02:42  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
14:09:04  *** Japa__ [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:22:30  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:23:02  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
14:29:48  *** Super_Random [] has joined #openttd
14:31:19  *** retro|cz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:09:27  *** oskari89 [] has quit []
15:24:47  *** ZxBiohazardZx [] has joined #openttd
15:37:20  *** Haube [] has joined #openttd
15:48:05  <andythenorth> git > hg for merges :P
15:48:30  <Xaroth|Work> agreed
16:08:34  *** Japa__ [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
16:08:34  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
16:32:53  *** MNIM [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
16:57:34  *** tokai|mdlx [] has joined #openttd
16:59:43  *** montalvo [] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz
17:00:48  *** Pol [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:02:59  *** gelignite [] has joined #openttd
17:03:19  *** tokai|noir [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:06:14  *** Japa__ [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:13:45  *** skyem123 [] has joined #openttd
17:30:40  <fonsinchen> The whole refit-at-station feature is broken by design. Why did we add it in the first place?
17:40:30  <andythenorth> fonsinchen: dunno :)
17:40:35  <andythenorth> it seemed popular
17:40:41  <andythenorth> but it has so many issues ;)(
17:40:46  <andythenorth> ;)
17:41:29  <fonsinchen> deserves its own FS task and is something else than
17:42:27  <fonsinchen> My patch fixes the issue that you can't refit + full load if the the old cargo is present in the station - even without articulated vehicles.
17:42:51  <fonsinchen> This situation was created by the introduction of cargo reservations.
17:43:01  <andythenorth> fonsinchen: are you also aware of implications of CB 15E? o_O
17:43:20  <andythenorth> we either think it's acceptable for newgrf to silently break orders,,
17:43:22  <andythenorth> dunno
17:43:26  <andythenorth> seems bad anyway
17:44:29  <fonsinchen> I think I've noticed that with opengfx+ trains
17:44:51  <fonsinchen> You can select a coal->grain refit in the order list but it won't be carried out.
17:45:03  <fonsinchen> coal->ore is OK, though
17:45:06  <andythenorth> yes
17:45:10  <andythenorth> and you won't be notified
17:45:12  <andythenorth> nor will AI
17:45:47  <andythenorth> and I could write a grf that makes the decision completely stupidly, like random or such
17:46:15  <andythenorth> although that's not the only stupid thing I could do in a grf :D
17:46:38  <andythenorth> but the presence of 'refit any available' makes it entirely non-deterministic, so we can't really even try and offer a warning to player
17:46:50  <michi_cc> What's the difference to randomizing speed, power or whatever based on phase of moon? NewGRF authors should simply show some restraint when using CB 15E.
17:47:15  <fonsinchen> Why did they include that flag in the spec? It's bound to make problems.
17:48:20  <andythenorth> michi_cc: I accept the argument, but if I randomise power / speed etc, the game will eventually tell me a train is lost or whatever, if I get 0 for the values
17:48:35  <andythenorth> and also everyone would agree that setting those values to 0 is stupid
17:48:55  <andythenorth> but we seem to think that preventing refits on arbitrary conditions is actually desirable :)
17:49:33  <andythenorth> don't get me wrong, I want the feature to succeed, I was an advocate for it
17:49:37  <andythenorth> refitting in depot is boring
17:49:48  <fonsinchen> The people definig that spec must have been drunk
17:56:39  <andythenorth> well sometimes it's nice to just try and get something done, instead of discussing for years :)
17:56:53  <andythenorth> and players seem to like it
17:57:05  <andythenorth> although I had to redesign and entire ship set to accomodate it :P
17:57:07  <andythenorth> but nvm
17:58:07  *** oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
18:06:13  <Rubidium> andythenorth: but look how much of TTD needed to be redesigned to bring you that possibility
18:07:05  <andythenorth> :)
18:07:18  <andythenorth> should have used XML :P
18:12:57  <andythenorth> where is the thing where we say 'OpenTTD is not military'
18:13:02  <andythenorth> can't find it on
18:14:14  <andythenorth> old forum results say it's on ottd wiki, but I can't find it there
18:14:41  <Alberth> andythenorth:
18:16:45  <andythenorth> thanks
18:17:03  <andythenorth> so I assume it still stands?
18:17:56  <Alberth> seems like it :p
18:18:37  <andythenorth> FIRS won't be growing a military economy then :)
18:19:33  *** skyem123 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:19:33  <Alberth> maybe we should add that it we don't aim to make a RL simulation
18:19:59  <andythenorth> ho ho
18:20:08  <andythenorth> that ship has sailed
18:20:19  <Alberth> :(
18:20:48  <andythenorth> although...
18:20:51  <andythenorth> hmm
18:20:53  * andythenorth has some ideas
18:21:07  <andythenorth> to help solve the Dutch set's problem :)
18:21:36  <Alberth> fork, and make a sane setup :p
18:21:54  <andythenorth> we really miss important stuff, like sustained power output, not just peak output
18:22:02  <andythenorth> engines can't run at max power for hours on end
18:22:24  <andythenorth> the dutch set problem (see their thread) would be solved by a spec extension
18:22:56  <andythenorth> freight locomotives can't run at sustained 50km/h in the 19th Century, they have small wheels, and the rotational speed degrades their axle bearings, or causes fires
18:23:08  <andythenorth> passenger engines have larger wheels and more expensively machine bearings
18:23:18  <andythenorth> these things are important, right? :P
18:23:34  <andythenorth> in fact that can all be done in newgrf
18:23:37  <andythenorth> with a tick counter or such
18:23:41  <andythenorth> I think
18:23:59  <andythenorth> set the animation frame if you've been travelling at top speed for n tiles
18:24:08  <andythenorth> then use that to force reduced speed
18:24:29  <andythenorth> also we miss incompatible signalling systems
18:24:39  *** adf89 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:24:41  <andythenorth> and the type of multiple-control equipment on locomotives
18:24:50  <andythenorth> and union agreements about the number of drivers and guards
18:24:55  <andythenorth> and brake force calculations
18:24:59  <Alberth> oh dear
18:25:03  <andythenorth> and coupling types
18:25:08  <andythenorth> and minimum chain curves
18:25:13  <andythenorth> and max gradeability
18:25:16  <andythenorth> all very important :P
18:25:54  * andythenorth may have digressed
18:26:06  <andythenorth> so no war in FIRS then
18:26:47  <Alberth> you forgot about non-45 degrees curves
18:28:14  <andythenorth> he :)
18:32:51  * Pinkbeast would love to see proper semaphore signalling in OTTD actually (runs away)
18:34:43  *** adf88 [] has joined #openttd
18:38:22  *** Matulla [] has joined #openttd
18:38:28  * fonsinchen just got a second screw stuck in that old PowerBook :(
18:39:05  <fonsinchen> Never gonna open that thing without destroying the keyboard again, I guess
18:39:21  <Matulla> hi question  is it posible to see the towns that need water or food to grom in a list
18:45:17  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26184 trunk/src/lang/welsh.txt (2013-12-28 18:45:09 UTC)
18:45:18  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:19  <DorpsGek> welsh - 126 changes by kazzie
18:45:43  <Alberth> hmm, I wouldn't know any simple way to get that information
18:47:24  <Alberth> perhaps with the minimap, look eg for towns in the desert
18:50:56  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:52:29  <Matulla> agree but on large scale there are many and so lots of time town does not grow cause of not supplyed
18:54:19  <Alberth> I can imagine, but I never play for town growth
18:54:50  <Matulla> some do that some different
18:57:21  <Alberth> quite a lot of "some", judging by the forum questions :)
18:57:49  <Matulla> ;-)
18:58:02  <Matulla> BYE have a nice wekend its the last in 2013
18:58:06  *** Matulla [] has left #openttd []
19:03:47  *** Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
19:23:25  <andythenorth> some kind of demand overlay on the map is an idea I tried to figure out once
19:23:49  <andythenorth> I wondered if it could be done the way TTRS grf does it, with custom ground tiles, and just use transparent
19:24:11  <andythenorth> whichever newgrf provides the cargos provides the icons to overlay
19:38:07  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has joined #openttd
20:05:16  *** glx [] has joined #openttd
20:05:19  *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
20:25:49  *** Alberth [] has left #openttd []
20:27:38  * andythenorth does commits
20:28:21  <Xaroth|Work> the horrow
20:28:24  <Xaroth|Work> the horror, even
20:28:34  *** montalvo [] has joined #openttd
20:43:36  *** montalvo [] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client:]
20:44:58  *** montalvo [] has joined #openttd
20:50:56  *** Myhorta [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:15:20  *** haxx [] has joined #openttd
21:35:16  *** Djohaal [] has joined #openttd
21:44:18  *** montalvo is now known as mont_AFK
22:01:41  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
22:04:51  *** DDR [~kvirc@] has joined #openttd
22:11:59  *** glx_ [~glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:c0b9:92f6:f4fb:9287] has joined #openttd
22:11:59  *** mode/#openttd [+v glx_] by ChanServ
22:11:59  *** glx is now known as Guest1703
22:11:59  *** glx_ is now known as glx
22:18:00  *** Guest1703 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:40:04  *** gelignite [] has quit [Quit:]
22:43:06  *** adf88 [] has quit [Quit: adf88]
22:44:42  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
22:44:45  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
22:49:29  *** Chrill [] has joined #openttd
22:50:29  *** tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:55:33  *** LeandroL [~leandro@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:55:50  *** LeandroL [~leandro@] has joined #openttd
22:58:58  *** ZxBiohazardZx [] has quit [Quit: When the chips are down, well, the buffalo is empty]
23:23:19  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:30:02  *** oskari89 [] has quit []
23:31:40  <__ln__> can /ð/ and /Ξ/ be a minimal pair in english?
23:40:04  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has quit []
23:42:16  *** Taede [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:47:11  *** Elukka [] has quit []
23:47:13  <Eddi|zuHause> what the who?
23:49:10  *** Devroush [] has quit []
23:49:42  <__ln__> the first sound of e.g. 'this' and 'think', respectively. is there some word where changing just that one sound to the other changes the meaning of the word.
23:49:51  *** Taede [] has joined #openttd
23:50:44  <Eddi|zuHause> that would mean they'd be written the same, just spoken differently
23:51:23  <Eddi|zuHause> well, almost :)
23:51:55  <Eddi|zuHause> there are words in french that are spoken the same and written differently
23:52:17  <__ln__> in english as well, for example knight and night
23:52:58  <Eddi|zuHause> well you know this sketch "what are you thinking about?"
23:53:37  <__ln__> no, not by that name at least
23:53:50  <Eddi|zuHause>
23:54:57  <Eddi|zuHause> that is probably very close to your question
23:55:04  <Eddi|zuHause> but not exact
23:57:29  <Eddi|zuHause> where can i disable autoplaying videos when browsing the steam shop?
23:58:14  <__ln__> yes, that's basically the idea, but for a bit different phonemes
23:59:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't think of any example
23:59:59  <Eddi|zuHause> in general, having such "minimal pairs" sounds like a bad thing to have

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk