Log for #openttd on 20th January 2014:
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00:17:49  <Pikka> huh
00:18:06  <Pikka> why does grfcodec require your nfo to be in a directory called "sprites"?
00:20:25  <Pikka> hmm, that works.
00:22:24  <Sacro> zomg Pikka \o/
00:22:32  <Pikka> hallo Sacro
00:22:48  <Sacro> How are you?
00:22:56  <Pikka> not too bad!
00:23:09  <Pikka> I may have just encoded my first 32bpp newgrf!
00:23:19  <Pikka> I have to see if it works. :)
00:24:20  <Sacro> Oooh
00:24:25  <Sacro> prettier UKRS
00:24:28  <Sacro> perhaps?
00:24:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: you can specify a path
00:24:52  <Pikka> yes, I worked it out eddi :)
00:24:56  <Eddi|zuHause> "sprites" is the default path
00:25:19  <Pikka> you have to -e blah foo, not -e foo/blah
00:25:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it was coded by a complete moron :p
00:26:59  <Pikka> hmm, this newgrf is suspiciously small, I think it did not work :)
00:32:25  <Pikka> yep
00:32:32  <Pikka> grfcodec is not loading the 32bpp sprites
00:32:57  <Pikka> why is it so?
00:33:19  <Pikka>    13 ../sprites/8bpp.png 8bpp 0 0  16 16 0 0 normal
00:33:19  <Pikka>     | ../sprites/trains/amf_chief/1_darkblue/3200005.png 32bpp 0 0 320 320 -160 160 zi4
00:35:06  <Eddi|zuHause> some magic switch that you want to build a container v2?
00:35:26  <Eddi|zuHause> -g2
00:35:34  <Pikka> oh, that magic switch
00:35:36  <Pikka> there are so many
00:36:00  <Pikka> thanks
00:36:09  <Aristide> Pikka: o/
00:36:15  <Aristide> Eddi|zuHause: \o
00:36:17  <Aristide> Hi ! :)
00:36:27  <Pikka> egads, a train.
00:37:55  <Pikka> metric hp in the display, whose idea was this?
00:38:04  <Pikka> all it does is make the nice round numbers not nice and round.
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00:39:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly convinced it's MB's fault :)
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01:35:04  <Aristide> :')
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02:31:08  <Supercheese>  Opengfx Mars looks awesome
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07:59:37  <dihedral> good morning
08:00:19  <V453000> hy
08:02:42  <Xaroth|Work> o/
08:03:54  <planetmaker> moin
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10:25:31  <peter1138> urgh
10:25:36  <peter1138> remember my password list?
10:25:47  <__ln__> nope
10:25:48  <Xaroth|Work> what did you do -now- ?
10:26:05  <peter1138> heh
10:26:19  <peter1138> some ludicrous password policy: password must be picked from this list
10:26:33  <peter1138> last digit of the password is sequential o_O
10:27:02  <peter1138> so much for secure password policies
10:27:21  <peter1138> A-Z0-9 :S
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11:34:19  <LordAro>
11:38:51  <Eddi|zuHause> that does not really match my experience
11:51:30  <LordAro> perhaps not the ongoing development bit, but the other parts match mine :)
11:55:48  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you just haven't learned how to do it properly :)
12:00:36  <LordAro> :p
12:00:51  <LordAro> that is quite possible
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14:42:41  <fjb> Moin.
14:42:57  <planetmaker> moin
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14:51:13  <fjb> Everybody frozen?
14:51:20  <Kucki> jep
14:53:40  <fjb> It's quite quiet here today.
14:54:49  <Kucki> hm, first time beein here
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18:24:30  <Belugas> hello
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18:43:10  <Wolf01> hello o/
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18:45:20  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26269 /trunk/src/lang (danish.txt norwegian_nynorsk.txt) (2014-01-20 18:45:11 UTC)
18:45:21  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:22  <DorpsGek> danish - 10 changes by manframe
18:45:23  <DorpsGek> norwegian_nynorsk - 24 changes by 2rB
18:45:49  <frosch123> hi Wolf01
18:47:20  <Xaroth|Work> o/
18:49:39  <fjb> Moin Belugas
18:49:44  <fjb> Moin Wolf01
18:49:56  <fjb> Quak frosch123
18:50:03  <fjb> Moin Xaroth|Work
18:52:20  <Xaroth|Work> o/ fjb
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19:38:20  <fjb> When starting a new project, wich version control system would be preferable? Mercurail or Git or something else?
19:40:00  <Xaroth|Work> I personally prefer git
19:40:08  <planetmaker> I personally prefer mercurial
19:40:17  <Xaroth|Work> then again, I run a gitlab system for my own projects, and use github for all public projects
19:40:21  <Xaroth|Work> so I'm quite.. biased :P
19:40:55  <planetmaker> then again, I run rhodecode system for my own projects and use it for all public projects. So I'm quite biased :P
19:40:59  <fjb> I don't mind being biased, the question is why you prefer one over the other.
19:41:00  <Xaroth|Work> :)
19:41:26  <Xaroth|Work> I use gitlab because it's the 'private' version of github; the github client works with any git repository, so that makes it easy to use either one
19:41:44  <Xaroth|Work> gitlab also has a CI system for all my unit test needs
19:42:19  <andythenorth> if you are using devzone for an openttd project, use mercurial, it's well supported
19:42:37  <andythenorth> if you are working elsewhere, and it's not an existing hg environment, use git
19:42:50  <Xaroth|Work> redmine works with git just fine as well
19:42:53  <andythenorth> especially if you want to go to github or whatever
19:43:09  <planetmaker> bitbucket works nicely and natively with mercurial.
19:43:24  <planetmaker> I prefer mercurial as I don't have to dig into the internals of it to get things done
19:43:37  <Xaroth|Work> I have the same with git :P
19:43:40  <fjb> It would be a new project, independend from OpenTTD.
19:44:00  <planetmaker> fjb, do you have experience with mercurial or git? Then choose the one you're familiar with
19:44:28  <Xaroth|Work> and what do you expect your target audience will be
19:44:29  <planetmaker> If not... mercurial has the IMHO slightly saner interface
19:44:36  <Xaroth|Work> wait what? :P
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19:44:47  <Xaroth|Work> interface and sanity thereof are highly personal preference
19:44:50  <fjb> I have no experience with either of them.
19:44:57  <planetmaker> with svn?
19:46:14  <fjb> I'm using Bazaar-NG right now. But that switched more or less over to maintanace mode.
19:46:19  <Xaroth|Work> :|
19:46:29  <Xaroth|Work> I was dreading you'd mention that monstrosity
19:46:52  <andythenorth> bzr :)
19:47:00  <andythenorth> FIRS started in bzr
19:47:07  <planetmaker> yeah
19:47:09  <fjb> It worked well.
19:47:18  <Xaroth|Work> it's so slow :|
19:50:24  <fjb> Not really slow anymore. That was some years ago. But that is not the problem. How is platform indepence regardind line endings, or things like file renams?
19:50:59  <planetmaker> hg is based on python. Whereever that runs, hg runs. binaries for all systems readily available
19:51:09  <planetmaker> git is compiled for all, too
19:53:54  <planetmaker> if you've existing bzr repos, it's easy to convert them to hg
19:54:03  <fjb> I know. But how are renames of files or directoriies handled, or splitting part of the source tree into a library?
19:54:23  <planetmaker> hg mv a b
19:55:14  <planetmaker> there's the subrepository extension - most suitable to put a library in a separate repo which is included by that means
19:55:16  <fjb> So I have to move everithing from within hg, not by other tools?
19:55:52  <Rubidium> fjb: RMS has chosen git over hg as replacement for bzr; maybe his reasoning could be used in your case as well?
19:55:54  <planetmaker> how would *any* scm know that it's not a new file if you don't tell it that the file moved?
19:55:55  <fjb> The subrepository thing sound interesting. Is there something like that for git?
19:56:28  <Rubidium> planetmaker: any sscm would know ;)
19:56:31  <fjb> Rubidium: Thank you. I will read it.
19:58:00  * Rubidium kinda favours hg as DSCM at the moment as it seems easier, though that's probably because I'm still quite in the SVN mindset
20:00:20  <planetmaker> I disagree with the assessment that "mercurial doesn't look healthy"...
20:02:41  <andythenorth> mercurial is fine, git is not for everybody
20:02:44  <andythenorth> but git has won
20:02:50  <andythenorth> doesn't mean hg has lost
20:03:03  <fjb> bzr lost.
20:03:06  <planetmaker> pretty much, yeah ^^
20:08:21  <Eddi|zuHause> if you move a file by means other than hg itself, "hg addremove" will try to match a deletion with a creation and record it as move
20:08:44  <planetmaker> hm :)
20:09:53  <fjb> Nice.
20:10:33  <andythenorth> I should learn that
20:10:45  <andythenorth> I always forget and hg nags me with '!'
20:11:37  <planetmaker> addremove adds everything not tracked. I find that usually more hassle than gain
20:11:58  <planetmaker> (and removes everything tracked but not present any longer)
20:12:30  <planetmaker> well. everything not tracked and not ignored
20:13:27  <Eddi|zuHause> well that's kinda the point :)
20:13:55  <andythenorth> I wish I could articulate why I have come to prefer git
20:13:58  <andythenorth> but I can't :
20:14:00  <andythenorth> :P
20:14:24  <andythenorth> git is frankly weird, and seems dangerously explosive if you don't know what you're doing
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20:15:26  <Xaroth|Work> fjb: git doesn't track file paths, if you move a file and commit, it'll detect you've moved it
20:16:58  <fjb> Xaroth|Work: Thank you.
20:17:27  <Xaroth|Work> and like hg, there are some do's and don'ts with git, but the same can be said about svn tbh
20:17:58  <Xaroth|Work> it's made with the linux kernel in mind, they have some pretty weird demands for a VCS system
20:18:02  <planetmaker> every system has it's things it works well with and others which it doesn't
20:18:08  <Xaroth|Work> yep
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20:18:43  <andythenorth> with git, much more so than hg, I have found the following essential:
20:18:54  <Xaroth|Work> both use compression and delta storage, so that's quite equal
20:19:09  <andythenorth> (1) never ever ever just type in advice from a stack overflow article, or someone's blog.  Go read the Red Bean book first
20:19:17  <Xaroth|Work> wait what?
20:19:20  <andythenorth> (2) never ever ever ever ever try to do complex rebases
20:19:40  <Xaroth|Work> i've only once read a page or three on the red bean book :|
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20:20:08  <andythenorth> Xaroth|Work: do you read the git help or such instead?
20:20:31  <andythenorth> my point being, there is a lot of advice that is not just inaccurate, but dangerous, and gets you yelled at by other people cleaning your mess
20:20:32  <fjb> I'm no friend of a rebase at all. You only lose track of your mistakes that way.
20:20:47  <Xaroth|Work> andythenorth: pretty much, but I also don't favour rebases
20:21:25  <Xaroth|Work> (then agian, the github client does it for me when i really need to)
20:21:49  <planetmaker> hard to get around some form of rebase if you develop a patch queue for a project
20:22:14  <planetmaker> or if on your own project you have different braches with different features. But there you can easier use merges
20:22:30  <planetmaker> and rebasing for patch queues can be done, too, by means of merge when done
20:22:38  <Xaroth|Work> with git you can easily merge across forks anyhow
20:22:49  <Xaroth|Work> patch queues in git usually come in the form of pull requests
20:22:50  <planetmaker> with hg as well
20:23:00  <planetmaker> with any dvcs they do
20:23:08  <planetmaker> patch queues is svn style :)
20:23:17  <Xaroth|Work> yep
20:23:40  <Xaroth|Work> and nothing sucks more than patch queues that don't apply easily :P
20:24:27  <planetmaker> yeah :)
20:24:29  <Xaroth|Work> but tbqfh, there's not -that- much different between hg and git; both have similar approaches to a lot of things.. the main difference is just -how- they make the users do it
20:24:55  <fjb> Usually I'm working on each feature in its own branch and mege it together when a feature is ready.
20:25:05  <planetmaker> works with either
20:25:16  <Xaroth|Work> fjb: that'll work, np
20:26:09  <fjb> And is there something like that subproject thing that planetmaker mentioned in git? It could be very useful.
20:26:16  <planetmaker> I'll never get over git forgetting revs though after some time which are not a tag
20:26:34  <Xaroth|Work> wait what?
20:26:45  <Xaroth|Work> @fjb: there is, but it's not widely used
20:27:15  <fjb> Git is forgetting revisions?
20:27:21  <Xaroth|Work> never seen that happen
20:27:38  <Xaroth|Work> heck, git revisions are the main source of it's security :|
20:27:50  <planetmaker> Xaroth, create a branch with a name. Update to another rev, commit something and give it the same name
20:28:01  <planetmaker> then without reflog there's no means to get back to your previous branch
20:28:11  <planetmaker> and it will be garbage collected after some (decent) time
20:28:25  <Xaroth|Work> as in, create the same branch twice?
20:28:37  <Xaroth|Work> or what, exactly?
20:28:39  <planetmaker> moving the branch tag, yes
20:29:25  <planetmaker> dangling commits will eventually be gone
20:29:25  <Xaroth|Work> I don't get what steps you did exactly, but the second I try to push a tag or branch that's already known in the system, git will start screaming bloody murder
20:29:42  <planetmaker> I'm not talking about push or anything
20:30:20  <planetmaker> a commit w/o any ref to it
20:30:35  <planetmaker> *ref pointing to it
20:31:00  <planetmaker> I wish I find that video again where it's explained... git 101 or so
20:31:05  <Xaroth|Work> that should only happen if you do a hard reset
20:31:21  <Xaroth|Work> and you shouldn't be doing those unless you know what you're doing
20:31:59  <Xaroth|Work> and you can easily retrieve those, until a gc is executed
20:32:09  <Xaroth|Work> git fsck --lost-found will locate dangling commits
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20:32:39  <Xaroth|Work> at which point you can merge that with your current head
20:32:44  <Xaroth|Work> and get your changes back
20:32:57  <Xaroth|Work> (it'll even do the standard conflict resolution if needed)
20:33:14  <planetmaker> well, you can get easily obviously into a state Jenkins repos got a few weeks ago ;)
20:33:44  <Xaroth|Work> that's because jenkins, as many other CI systems, do hard resets when they shouldn't
20:34:26  <planetmaker> that was not the CI itself. But a commit to github...
20:34:33  <planetmaker> by a person
20:34:50  <Xaroth|Work> o_O
20:35:04  <Xaroth|Work> I'd have to see what happened then to see what went wrong
20:35:27  <planetmaker>
20:35:41  <Xaroth|Work> oh -THAT-
20:35:54  <Xaroth|Work> yes, that was a giant fail from both github and jenkin's side
20:35:58  <Xaroth|Work> github for allowing jenkins to push
20:35:59  <planetmaker> (yes, different than what I mentioned before)
20:36:06  <Xaroth|Work> and jenkins for being idiots to push forced :\
20:36:10  <planetmaker> Xaroth, jenkins didn't push...
20:36:22  <Xaroth|Work> no, one of their devs did
20:36:25  <planetmaker> yeah
20:36:50  <Xaroth|Work> so yeah, if you give somebody admin rights to your system, and he does a rm -rf / , things will go tits up
20:37:19  <planetmaker> a bit different. It's only commit rights
20:37:33  <planetmaker> commit rights to remove history
20:37:53  <planetmaker> by remote command
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20:38:32  <Xaroth|Work> it's a bit more complicated than just commit rights
20:39:19  <Xaroth|Work> the jenkins-ci plugin has certain access, that people grant to their repositories.. of those access, they have the ability to do some minor modification of things in order to do their jenkins thing
20:39:31  <Xaroth|Work> what they didn't know, is that they had access to push --force
20:39:51  <Xaroth|Work> which forces the overwriting of reflogs
20:40:01  <Xaroth|Work> so you can force a repository to a completely different state
20:40:09  <Xaroth|Work> even when the sanity checks tell you not to do that
20:40:25  <Xaroth|Work> (i.e. when something has made it into the commit tree that you want to be wiped out of history)
20:40:32  <Xaroth|Work> (or when you want to change the name of an author)
20:40:44  <Xaroth|Work> git doesn't like that, normally, because you shouldn't be doing that
20:40:59  <Xaroth|Work> BUT, git allows one to tell git to 'sudo make me a sandwich'
20:41:11  <Xaroth|Work> by means of the --force arg
20:41:30  <Xaroth|Work> now what happened, is that the jenkins dev accidentally triggered a forced push on 150+ repositories
20:41:40  <Xaroth|Work> and realised too late, that they actually had access to do that
20:41:51  <Xaroth|Work> at which point, of those repositories, many were set back in time
20:42:30  <Xaroth|Work> now the actual commits weren't 'gone', but all commits made to after the point in time where jenkins pushed to, were dangling
20:42:39  <Xaroth|Work> so they had to figure out which ref ID that was, to restore it
20:43:14  <Xaroth|Work> to summarize, derp from jenkins (dev), and derp from github for allowing said jenkins derp.
20:43:39  <Xaroth|Work> (and every was restored, to my knowledge)
20:45:23  <fjb> I think that should not bother me that much. I know that I should know what I'm doing when I'm forcing stuff.
20:47:04  <Xaroth|Work> well, if any, you can trust in the fact that most screwups can be fixed
20:47:06  <Xaroth|Work> (if you know how)
20:48:00  <Xaroth|Work> each commit ref is also a checksum, so if you ever get data corruption, git can detect that (and with a LOT of effort (seriously, just get a backup or something..), you can track it down to which file in which commit got corrupted, and restore that)
20:48:30  <Xaroth|Work> and I believe hg has something similar-ish to that as well
20:48:34  <Xaroth|Work> safety first
20:49:42  <planetmaker> with hg there is no way at all to remove anything from a remote repo
20:50:01  <planetmaker> you cannot rewrite history via push with hg
20:51:03  <Xaroth|Work> yes you can
20:51:05  <Xaroth|Work> hg convert :)
20:51:20  <planetmaker> if you force push with hg, you simply add new heads (unnamed branches)
20:51:28  <planetmaker> you cannot convert a remote repo
20:53:17  <Eddi|zuHause> i always do "hg pull && hg rebase" when push tells me it would create another head
20:53:29  <planetmaker> exactly
20:54:04  <Eddi|zuHause> that rewrites the local history, so i don't have spurious merge commits
20:54:11  <planetmaker> <-- this is what I meant initially, at 1:25:30 and the next minute about dangling commits and forgetting them,
20:54:25  <planetmaker> which only can be accessed via reflog
20:54:33  <planetmaker> hg heads are nicer there
20:54:53  <planetmaker> (rubi once dug out that video - quite useful one)
20:56:19  <planetmaker> 1:27:56 actually: it takes like two weeks to throw away the detached commit
20:56:20  <Xaroth|Work> it even tells you what is going to happen and how to fix it o-O
20:56:23  <planetmaker> yes
20:56:28  <planetmaker> it does
20:56:53  <planetmaker> but given my frequency to work on different projects, two weeks could easily pass before I return somewhere. It would be gone
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20:57:12  <Xaroth|Work> that's like having a "Warning, Slippery when wet" sign next to a "Warning, wet, ground is slippery" sign
20:57:18  <planetmaker> with hg I just commit and update. No action required
20:57:24  <Xaroth|Work> if you fall, you should have read the signs :p
20:57:29  <planetmaker> nothing wet and slippery in these situations with hg :)
20:57:43  <planetmaker> just normal workflow, easily seen with hg heads anytime later
20:57:49  <Xaroth|Work> that's because hg is trying to think for you :)
20:58:00  <Xaroth|Work> as I said before, git is made for kernel devs initially
20:58:09  <Xaroth|Work> if they do 'sudo make me a sandwich', they expect a sandwich
20:58:42  <Xaroth|Work> hg just strips out any notion of sudo, and checks itself whether or not people have access to make, or let alone a sandwich
21:17:11  <fjb> Now I have many stuff to read and think about. Thank you.
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21:17:56  <Xaroth|Work> np :)
21:18:40  <andythenorth> @seen alberth
21:18:40  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: alberth was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 1 hour, 4 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Alberth> hi hi
21:19:23  <planetmaker> welcome. Also look at :)
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21:24:50  * fjb is reading beginners guides of Mercurial and Git.
21:27:06  <fjb> And I need to find out how both are integrated into Eclipse and the like. Yes, I'm using warm water to shower. My monitor is not big enough for the open Vim and shell windows I would need otherwise.
21:28:40  <Xaroth|Work> from what I know from the dev team, there is a quite elaborate git plugin in eclipse
21:29:06  <Xaroth|Work> though some prefer the github client or tortoisegit (context menus under windows) over it
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21:30:24  <andythenorth> I found that using a graphical git client was unpleasant
21:30:26  <andythenorth> it was very magical
21:30:36  <andythenorth> I had no idea what was actually being done
21:30:48  <Xaroth|Work> that's a matter of taste, tbqfh
21:30:53  <andythenorth> yeah
21:31:01  <planetmaker> the only time I prefer some graphical feedback is when I need an overview over how branches go
21:31:13  <planetmaker> what belongs to where
21:31:18  <planetmaker> but definitely taste
21:31:40  <andythenorth> I like to know (a bit) how stuff works
21:31:56  <Xaroth|Work> I like the simplicity the github client has, no fuss, just click on what you want and it does it
21:32:09  <andythenorth> I am -1 on clicking 'commit all changes' then watch progress box :)
21:32:14  <Xaroth|Work> until it doesn't get what you want, at which point there's a separate git shell for it
21:32:17  <fjb> I just need Eclipse for getting the coding done. But a plugin for a vcs would be nice so they do not interfere with each other.
21:32:35  * andythenorth used eclipse once, for a bit
21:32:43  <Xaroth|Work> fjb: there should be plugins for git, and I would find it odd if hg didn't have one either
21:33:18  <fjb> Both have a plugin. The question is how useful they are.
21:33:39  * planetmaker has not much experience with eclipse. Didn't find my way around there
21:34:05  <andythenorth> I am happier being very unproductive in a text editor
21:34:23  <planetmaker> :D
21:34:52  <andythenorth> although I did recently turn on 'show unbalanced braces'
21:35:06  <andythenorth> that's quite advanced :P
21:35:27  <andythenorth> and occasionally I use 'de-educate quotes' instead of doing it with find and replace
21:36:16  <andythenorth> mostly I find that the slow thing is the thinking, not the editor
21:38:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that video is fun... "do not rebase" ... "i show you how to rebase now" :p
21:39:02  <planetmaker> yeah :)
21:39:28  <planetmaker> well, it's a quite good video, IMHO
21:40:00  <Xaroth|Work> it's the same as sex ed.. they tell you not to do it, but they at least prepare you for the moment when you will
21:40:24  <planetmaker> they tell you not to do it? strange places
21:40:27  <MNIM> Xaroth|Work: well, at least in civilized countries.
21:40:38  <MNIM> planetmaker: not in civilized countries!
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21:54:43  <Terkhen> good night
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21:56:00  <Xaroth|Work> nn
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22:14:08  * frosch123 throws ENoSense
22:14:18  <frosch123> do squirrel fnuctions need a "return" ?
22:14:21  <NTG> Is this the openTTD subreddit channel?
22:14:30  <frosch123> no
22:14:36  <frosch123> that is #/r/openttd
22:14:37  <frosch123> or so
22:15:16  <NTG> Thanks. I will try that
22:16:22  <NTG> Ah, that does it.
22:16:35  <NTG> Thanks
22:16:54  <frosch123> i learned from that channel that "/" is allowed in channel names :p
22:17:35  *** gelignite [] has quit [Quit:]
22:18:11  <NTG> That is why I could not find it. I though those characters weren't allowed.
22:18:32  <andythenorth> bed for me
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22:34:27  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26270 trunk/src/script/api/script_town.cpp (2014-01-20 22:34:22 UTC)
22:34:28  <DorpsGek> -Fix-ish: If ScriptTown::FoundTown fails to generate a new random town name, don't bother sending a command, but fail immediately.
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23:39:56  <Wolf01> 'night all
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