Log for #openttd on 22nd January 2014:
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00:21:26  <Hazzard> !playercount
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00:38:40  <LordAro> lolz
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00:57:52  <mek42> with eGRAVTS, early start, are horse drawn cargo wagons supposed to use something other than a truck station?
00:58:44  <Pinkbeast> mek42: The horse drawn wagons work just like normal RVs; some work on tram tracks, some on roads; if they carry pax or mail they stop at bus stops, if not at truck stops.
01:01:53  <mek42> when i try to tell it to go to a truck station it says can't go to that station
01:02:31  <mek42> it is in the middle of nowhere, do i maybe need the road connected to a depot near a town?
01:07:30  <Pinkbeast> What is it carrying?
01:08:35  <Pinkbeast> Because all road vehicles (not just EGRVTS) are implicitly divided into two sets; those that carry pax and mail, and all the rest. Each can never stop at the others' stations.
01:09:13  <mek42> i refited it to sand, and am trying to send it to a truck station
01:09:36  <mek42> it is a two horse hopper carriage
01:09:56  <Pinkbeast> Is it a tram?
01:10:22  <mek42> it says carriage, not tram
01:11:08  <Pinkbeast> mek42: I'm afraid then I don't know without seeing a savegame.
01:12:29  <mek42> is there a convenient way to make a save game available?
01:13:40  <Pinkbeast> I don't actually have a running copy of OTTD on the steam-powered laptop, so, er.
01:14:39  <mek42> ah, ok, np
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01:19:44  <fjb> If it is horse drawn it is a multi part vehicle and as such needs a driver trough station.
01:20:36  <Pinkbeast> Oh, yes!
01:20:49  <Pinkbeast> I forgot about that, because I've internalised it.
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01:30:58  <mek42> ah, ok, good to know - it can use one of those as an end terminal?
01:31:46  <Pinkbeast> If you provide a space of road after to turn aroud in, yes
01:32:24  <mek42> ok, gotcha
01:32:28  <mek42> tyvm
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06:09:45  <TheZonta> Greeting Folks
06:10:30  <TheZonta> I was wondering if there any NewGRF or mod that allow every player to use the same rail network?
06:11:04  <Rubidium> good "morning" TheZonta
06:11:47  <Rubidium> there is no NewGRF that can do that, there is an infrastructure sharing mod somewhere on the forum, though I'm not sure how outdated it is
06:14:14  <TheZonta> Got it
06:15:56  <TheZonta> Humm lastest change in the changelog is dated of the 30 dec 2009
06:23:17  <TheZonta> Seems there a version on Beta 1.4 r26264
06:23:32  <TheZonta> anyway many thanks to you Rubidium
06:23:49  <TheZonta> for leading me to the mod
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06:34:19  <Eddi|zuHause> oh there's snow...
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07:32:43  <planetmaker> moin
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08:07:54  <dihedral> good morning
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10:58:17  <LSky> morning
11:17:28  <Pikka> hello
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13:15:02  <Tanguy> Hello.
13:19:36  <Tanguy> A trainiac friend of mine told me that in real train networks, junctions were usually three-way. In fact, I think he may even have told me that four-way junctions did not exist, but I am not certain of that.
13:20:23  <Tanguy> I wonder whether or not it is efficient in OpenTTD to avoid four-way junctions and to use mostly three-way ones.
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13:22:33  <LSky> Anyone know why Im getting (make[1]: *** [saveload/afterload.o] Error 1) whilst trying to compile using MinGW?
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13:30:24  <LSky> the issue pops up after I applied YAPP 1.3.2-DC3.0RC3.diff on the 1.3 source
13:31:03  <LSky> it works fine without the patch applied
13:32:54  <LSky> am I obtaining the wrong source?
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13:34:05  <Xaroth|Work> wait, YAPP as in PBS patch, or something else?
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13:34:39  <Eddi|zuHause> "PP" stands for "Patch Pack"
13:35:13  <Eddi|zuHause> LSky: can you please try "make clean" and if that does not help, post the complete error message
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13:35:55  <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: it also stands for PBS Patch ...
13:36:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: but not in this case
13:36:27  * Xaroth|Work shrugs
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13:40:33  <dihedral> why are you supporting a patch pack anyway? :-P
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13:52:41  <LSky> Thanks, ill try make clean
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14:04:52  <efess> make clean is the developer's way of saying "did you turn it off and back on again"
14:05:06  <LSky> make clean did very little xD
14:05:16  <LSky> this is the complete error;
14:05:17  <LSky>
14:05:26  <LSky> also, morning Captain efess
14:05:33  <efess> morning sir.
14:08:22  <planetmaker> that pretty much looks like a broken patch
14:08:29  <planetmaker> does unpatched trunk compile for you, LSky ?
14:08:49  <LSky> yep
14:08:57  <LSky> im wondering if Im using the wrong source perhaps
14:08:59  <planetmaker> well, then get to fixing source
14:09:24  <planetmaker> if trunk compiles and patch not - then the patch is broken for the version you applied it to
14:09:39  <planetmaker> that can also be the case if the author made it with that source version
14:10:23  <LSky> the thread mentions using the 1.3.2 source
14:10:35  <planetmaker> what does the diff mention? :)
14:10:52  <LSky> eh, ofc, i shouldve checked that
14:10:59  <planetmaker> (and why do people still make patches against stable releases - that completely eludes my understanding)
14:11:46  <LSky> well, the patch isnt exactly new
14:11:52  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: mostly because YACD won't apply against trunk anyway
14:12:18  <LSky> i just forsee getting myself into more trouble if i try applying this patch against a whole different version instead of what its supposed to be created for
14:13:11  <LSky> hmm, the diff file doesnt mention a specific revision as far as I can tell
14:13:38  <planetmaker> got a link?
14:13:42  <planetmaker> to the thread?
14:13:51  <LSky> it just says 1.3.2
14:13:54  <LSky> yeah, one sec
14:14:01  <LSky>
14:21:11  <planetmaker> pretty much looks like a broken patch. Two of the one in the PP modifying saveload code in an incompatible way it seems
14:22:48  <LSky> hmm, alright then. i was attempting to compile it with desync debug mode enabled to figure out what was going wrong whilst using the precompiled versions in that thread, guess no dice :/
14:23:36  <planetmaker> you might go to afterload.cpp and check for the occurance of the _m variable and try replacing it by the _main_map.m
14:23:40  <planetmaker> maybe that does the trick
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14:24:11  <planetmaker> but honestly, you'll have no joy trying to find all desyncs which likely lurk in that big kind of PP
14:24:29  <LSky> probably not
14:25:17  <planetmaker> did you use any particular NewGRFs when seeing the desyncs?
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14:31:02  <planetmaker> LSky, you know, what I would find interesting? A server which updates around 21h CET with the then current nightly version of OpenTTD
14:31:33  <planetmaker> mostly free play, maybe some variation of NewGRFs, maybe occasional but not always a GS
14:33:19  <LSky> those desync issues played with a particular wide range of newgrfs, guess i went a little ahead of myself
14:33:48  <LSky> by the way, about the server idea you mentioned, why 21 CET? That seems like a time where people are already playing
14:33:51  <V453000> I am assuming most patch-wtf people only play single player :|
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14:34:06  <V453000> 21cet = new nightly
14:34:12  <V453000> I guess :)
14:34:15  <planetmaker> LSky, yes, but that's when the new nightly will be done compiling, yes
14:34:17  <LSky> i know, but youre going to reset a server in prime time?
14:34:23  <LSky> that sounds like a terrible idea
14:34:37  <V453000> though that is true ^
14:34:45  <LSky> i mean, 18 CET might be better
14:34:48  <LSky> or 16 CET
14:34:51  <planetmaker> probably true, yes. Well. any other time might be better. yeah
14:35:02  <planetmaker> s/better/do as well/
14:35:41  <LSky> ill pass the suggestion onto my server admins
14:35:51  <V453000> the only issue is that you wouldnt really have any players since people are totally lazy to update
14:35:52  <LSky> im sure one of them would like to get into the idea
14:36:04  <planetmaker> I thought you were the server admin? :P
14:36:05  <V453000> just look how many retards disregard RC/beta and only play stable
14:36:15  <LSky> i administrate the administrators :P
14:36:29  <planetmaker> V453000, the popularity of the nightly server which dih once maintained contradicts that statement
14:36:45  <V453000> interesting
14:37:01  <planetmaker> I'd say it was as popular as our public or stable servers
14:37:26  <planetmaker> and "latest features" is a selling argument ;)
14:37:39  <LSky> ( <V453000> I am assuming most patch-wtf people only play single player :|), is patch-wtf a particular patch, or do you mean patched versions in general?
14:37:45  <planetmaker> especially as it's much less hassle than any custom patch packs ;)
14:38:19  <V453000> LSky: anything that isnt stable or trunk
14:38:39  <LSky> well, we did have 17 players online earlier, on a monday no less
14:38:44  <LSky> I thought that was impressive
14:38:51  <planetmaker> that's quite ok
14:38:58  <planetmaker> or better than that :)
14:39:03  <LSky> was more than any other I believe
14:39:12  <LSky> and thats on a patched r24663
14:39:19  <LSky> so not recent either
14:40:09  <LSky> the problem with patched clients is that they have to offer something extraordinary, as well as being stable
14:40:18  <planetmaker> well, I'm more interested in 'official' versions getting more tests, especially current ones
14:40:29  <LSky> and they have to be accesible, etc
14:40:33  <planetmaker> yup
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14:40:42  <planetmaker> that's a bit of a hassle, I know :)
14:41:04  <LSky> like I said, Ill pass it on once either the UK or US admin gets online/back from work/etc
14:41:36  <LSky> that should be easier than patched versions, since people can just download the precompiled client
14:44:34  <planetmaker> LSky, I think that §6 of your server rules on signal use is... quite an overestimation
14:44:57  <LSky> thats about the pb signals?
14:45:28  <planetmaker> yup
14:46:14  <LSky> overestimation as in, theyre not that much more cpu intensive?
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14:46:34  <LSky> also, those server rules are badly in need of an update :(
14:46:34  <planetmaker> path_backoff_interval <-- if you don't change this variable, you'll likely not notice a difference
14:47:04  <planetmaker> and even if, that's mostly within error margins
14:47:23  <LSky> im guessing that was added before r24663?
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14:47:32  <planetmaker> what you do see with pbs signals sometimes is that a train seems to wait for a free path... exactly that time span
14:47:38  <planetmaker> since ever we have path signals
14:48:15  <LSky> hmm, im not quite sure on what the original decision was based when we decided on that rule, been so long ago :(
14:48:29  <planetmaker> (yes, I encourage people also to use block signals when no path signals are needed. But making it a server rule with that reasoning is IMHO ... way too strong)
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14:49:47  <planetmaker> I'd like otherwise to see credible data which justify that rule
14:50:09  <LSky> im looking through the posting history to see if I can find the discussion
14:50:22  <LSky> not even sure if it was on reddit anyway, couldve been an IRC conversation
14:50:28  <LSky> i really dont recall
14:50:41  <LSky> but yeah, im pretty sure the value you mentioned is one thats not changed on any of our servers
14:52:03  <planetmaker> (in theory the statement likely is even right - but practically I doubt it has much influence)
14:52:46  <V453000> there are other elements like many towns, stupidly large maps, newGRFs like ECS, or simply too many vehicles (reducing RV, ship and plane limits is a good thing too), which make the game heavy a lot more than sane usage of PBS
14:53:24  <V453000> we played games with 2000 or even 3000 trains, all of which used PBS at least at some points
14:53:32  <planetmaker> planes use the least of cpu compared with all other vehicle types
14:53:53  <planetmaker> they need virtually no path finder - just straight lines from A to B
14:53:54  <V453000> right, then they are "okay" in cpu regards =D terrible in everything else
14:54:08  <planetmaker> they simply don't compare well to a single train line :)
14:54:12  <planetmaker> economically
14:54:41  <LSky> if it gets busy on our main server, like the current round as well as last round, were running into issues that results in people simply being unable to catch up with the server after they downloaded the map. However, I think there's not much that can be done about that without severly restricting max vehicles
14:54:54  <efess> well, the rule is there to coax people into using block signals for long strait lines instead of PBS, not to completely prevent its use
14:54:58  <V453000> how large map, how many vehicles LSky ?
14:55:22  <LSky> currently 2048x1024, thousands of RVs, 1000-2000 trains
14:55:23  <V453000> efess: which is good, using block signals means people will learn a lot quicker
14:55:29  <LSky> we reach that on an average map
14:55:34  <V453000> and you are surprised
14:55:38  <LSky> nope
14:55:41  <LSky> not at all
14:55:42  <V453000> 1. 2048x1024 is total wtf imo
14:55:48  <LSky> its too small
14:55:50  <V453000> 2: RVs are just death :D
14:55:50  <planetmaker> LSky, then the lag does not come from signals. but from map size and vehicle (train, rv) count
14:55:51  <LSky> thats what it is
14:56:00  <efess> We're running FIRS with 15 companies
14:56:01  <planetmaker> I'm not surprised about lag. It's CPU heavy map
14:56:10  <LSky> i invite you to have a quick look at the server :P
14:56:18  <V453000> we have 15 companies on 512x1024 with HIGH amoutn of water and we are just fine on space usually
14:56:23  <LSky> were`in 1967 and the map is full
14:56:24  <planetmaker> and people who don't have a fast connection AND fast CPU won't be able to download quickly enough and catch-up with server
14:56:33  <V453000> wonder how do you define full
14:56:45  <LSky> well, I define full like this
14:57:24  <LSky> if someone new joins, he is somehow able to start a company (not currently possible, but sometimes one resets), is he able to find some empty space to start, industries an towns that arent surrounded by tracks
14:58:00  <LSky> currently, youll be hard pressed to find enough space to start a decent network without bridging and tunnelling your way across other people's networks
14:58:23  <V453000> well that mainly depends on amount of industries really
14:58:24  <planetmaker> well. Requiring some tunneling and bridging doesn't hurt, does it?
14:58:27  <LSky> were trying to find a balance where theres interaction, but players can still find room to build
14:58:37  <V453000> I dare say that 2048x1024 is almost impossible to _Fill_
14:58:44  <V453000> e.g. with solid density of tracks
14:59:00  <V453000> solid density = more than 2000 trains per 512x512 Or so
14:59:21  <LSky> thats more solid than whatd Id consider 'full' its not full as in, theres no way to build more
14:59:43  <V453000> well then its not full :D
14:59:48  <planetmaker> LSky, just for fun: try your server with a virgin 2048x1024 map and a 512x1024 map and see how the cpu usage differs :)
14:59:51  <V453000> if you got industries to connect and space to build? :)
14:59:52  <planetmaker> no-on playing
14:59:53  <LSky> but its full with to the extent that people wishing to build a new network have trouble finding clusters of unserviced industries
15:00:29  <LSky> i try to envision it from a somewhat new player's perspective
15:00:32  <peter1138> unserviced industries...
15:00:40  <peter1138> what's the obsession with not competing?
15:00:57  <planetmaker> more houses, more industries... they add to cpu :)
15:01:00  <LSky> there's competing, but people like to cultivate
15:01:00  <V453000> but yeah FIRS is quite stupid in how it makes people drag their network over a lot of the map
15:01:16  <V453000> competing generally leads to conflicts between people sooner or later
15:01:25  <LSky> sometimes, yeah
15:01:39  <LSky> only had one 'conflict' on the current round, none on the last round I believe
15:01:53  <peter1138> fighting for resources is meant to be part of the game :S
15:01:57  <LSky> an important consideration is that people have significantly longer time to build on our server
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15:02:10  <V453000> meant by who peter1138 ? P
15:02:26  <V453000> how long time LSky ?
15:02:32  <LSky> 5-7 days
15:02:37  <LSky> for a 125 year game
15:02:47  <V453000> sounds normal
15:02:52  <peter1138> well, try without on an original size map with original industry amounts
15:02:57  <LSky> thats normal?
15:02:58  <LSky> :|
15:03:01  <V453000> our games are like 1920-2120 or a lot more
15:03:23  <V453000> I think that is pretty normal
15:03:33  <LSky> planetmaker, were running a vanilla server as well
15:03:42  <LSky> same map size i believe
15:04:09  <V453000> honestly, if you need more space for people, just make 2 separate games run there
15:04:12  <V453000> each smaller
15:04:17  <LSky> thats what were doing
15:04:29  <V453000> well 2048x1024 isnt "smaller"
15:04:33  <LSky> were trying to spread out the playerbase to a second server
15:04:50  <LSky> in my experience, with the settings we have, anything under 2048x1024 is too small
15:05:16  <V453000> can I get a zoomed out screenshot of what means "full?
15:05:21  <LSky> yeah
15:05:29  <V453000> cant join with openttd atm, at work, sorry (:
15:05:49  <LSky> thats np
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15:07:14  <LSky> peter1138, I agree with the fighting for resources, but in my experience that 'fighting' is preferred to be under who connects to it first, rather than fighting over the same primary industry
15:08:34  <LSky> the latter comes with issues like blocking other players, networks jamming because of changing resource availability, etc
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15:08:38  <LSky> less pleasant stuff
15:09:07  <V453000> stupid amount of problems solved by having more industries etc :P
15:09:27  <LSky> V453000, this is a screenshot of a map that's 45% into the game
15:09:42  <LSky> as a server admin, I consider that situation problematic
15:09:51  <V453000> that is what I define empty as hell
15:10:07  <V453000> most of it caused by people building from one end to the other
15:10:08  <LSky> because new people can either not create a new company or not find too much space to grow an expansive network
15:10:19  <V453000> we have people building "locally" within e.g. 200x300 tile region
15:10:25  <LSky> well, industries like oil wells get serviced quickly
15:10:42  <LSky> once they run out, that resource is no longer available, which present problems down the line
15:10:48  <V453000> well another problem of FIRS is that there are few industries which are "best"
15:11:00  <V453000> I would reconsider using FIRS especially on this large map
15:11:09  <V453000> because that most definitely is a major source of your cpu issues just as well
15:11:15  <LSky> there's no viable alternative to it though
15:11:23  <LSky> not in my experience
15:11:25  <V453000> original industries are perfectly fine
15:11:35  <LSky> thats true, but not for our main server
15:11:37  <V453000> ogfx+ with its customization and offering many cargoes is imo the best
15:11:38  <LSky> its too simple
15:12:04  <V453000> it works without problems, that is why its simple - but for playing and servicing properly, it is imo hardest
15:12:40  <V453000> I strongly recommend it :) but you cant copy my hints in everything, you would just end up with the same server as we have
15:13:27  <V453000> one thing I have very good experience is making islands on the map. Causes people to stay on their piece of dirt, and build more densely there.
15:13:39  <LSky> yeah, I like islands as well
15:13:50  <V453000> just fiddling with the generator usually gives good results
15:13:51  <LSky> did you ever use that improved terragenesis?
15:14:02  <LSky> im not sure precisely which patch introduces that feature
15:14:07  <LSky> but the water generation is great
15:14:43  <V453000> im not sure if you mean the "variety distribution" but I find it useless if that is what you mean
15:14:46  <TheZonta> Thanks V453000 I will try that (ogfx+)
15:14:58  <V453000> sure try, it is fun, I use it all the time
15:14:59  <LSky> no, not variety distribution
15:15:17  <LSky> the one that adds "alpinist" as a terrain type
15:15:25  <LSky> on top of mountainous
15:15:36  <V453000> ah, well I saw the patch, tried it, but the one in trunk is just very good already
15:16:03  <V453000> and the alpine mountain is generally unbuildable on from what I saw, so it doesnt really help terribly much with making a playable map
15:16:12  <V453000> montainous is good enough, I mostly use Hilly
15:16:40  <LSky> well, its not the alpinist terrain type thats particularly awesome, but the way in which water is distributed is much better
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15:17:23  <V453000> I see ... well some of our admins also experiment with heightmaps ... I guess that is also an option to create islands. I personally always created some map which was almost perfect, and finished in scenario editor
15:17:23  <V453000>
15:17:28  <V453000> is how I usually did it
15:17:29  <TheZonta> Damn already in love with the bigger gui
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15:18:46  <LSky> its not so much the amount of water, but the distribution that presents difficulties for me
15:19:07  <V453000> I get your point, thats what Smooth/Rough are there for really :)
15:19:34  <V453000> smooth makes larger islands with sea between, rough is more dense, which can take a lot more random tries to get nice islands
15:19:53  <V453000> the blog article I posted includes a guide how to make islandy map
15:23:17  <planetmaker> that 'alpinist' is part of the 'more height levels' patch.
15:23:40  <planetmaker> (and it should be a separate patch really)
15:24:20  <planetmaker> *patch queue
15:25:17  <LSky> yeah I really wish theyd separate the terrain generator from the height levels patch
15:25:38  <LSky> maybe even further
15:25:49  <planetmaker> I tried to dig through the patch series once. It's HUUUGE
15:26:04  <LSky> and seperate the elevation genration from the land/water mass distribution
15:26:09  <planetmaker> frankly too huge for the documentation it comes with
15:26:53  <mek42> are there any server communities good for casualish games for newer players to learn from older hands?
15:27:14  <LSky> should be plenty
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15:27:34  <planetmaker> yeah
15:27:45  <LSky> id advertise my own, but that  seems imappropriate, maybe check the server list for populated servers?
15:27:59  <planetmaker> I'm biased similarily, I recommend the #openttdcoop welcome server :P
15:28:17  <planetmaker> but checkout a few like LSky suggests and stick where you like it
15:28:28  <mek42> i'm actually having trouble finding the openttdcoop server at all
15:28:46  <planetmaker> (or play here and there and elsewhere - they all have at least slightly different focus)
15:28:55  <LSky> it should be listed here;
15:28:56  <planetmaker> 1.4.0-beta3
15:29:18  <planetmaker> you might have another OpenTTD version :)
15:30:54  <mek42> i have 1.3.3 as well as the nightly that was advertised in openttdcoop irc about 12 hours ago
15:31:21  <planetmaker> coop irc should give you the revision of the coop public server
15:31:36  <mek42> i assume there are both coop and competitive servers?
15:31:52  <planetmaker> sure. I guess most are competitive
15:32:00  <LSky> V453000, using the same settings, I generated 2 maps using the different generators. I have to admit I like the second one better
15:32:04  <LSky>
15:32:43  <planetmaker> the bigger land masses?
15:32:47  <LSky> yeah
15:32:55  <V453000> but what will that do for players?
15:32:56  <mek42> aha! ty for using the ip command in openttdcoop - i think i had the port wrong
15:33:00  <V453000> everyone to build on the same spot?
15:33:02  <LSky> it create continents
15:33:09  <V453000> for multiplayer it is better to have many spots
15:33:18  <LSky> well yeah, its an example
15:33:21  <V453000> well continents are cute but if there is just 2 of them you might as well just have 1
15:33:35  <LSky> what i mean is, it creates larger islands
15:33:37  <V453000> Also, I would use Rough
15:33:43  <V453000> very rough is almost impossible to make nice islands
15:33:57  <V453000> yes, but too large :P size of the islands is qutie determined by teh smoothness
15:33:59  <planetmaker> LSky, but you can get a similar one with the right settings and unpatched
15:34:07  <planetmaker> I like maps between the two
15:36:04  <V453000> ^
15:36:16  <LSky> fair enough
15:36:29  <LSky> i didnt even realize smoothness had such a big influence on island size
15:36:55  <V453000> if you use smooth, it will come out easily and quickly most of the time
15:37:11  <V453000> Rough is IMO nicer, but a lot less probable to get good islands on
15:37:44  <planetmaker> I should probably somewhen make note on my land generation settings :D
15:37:53  <planetmaker> *take notes
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15:46:00  <LSky> I like this one on 75% water
15:46:02  <LSky>
15:46:16  <LSky> granted, that only works with larger maps
15:50:24  <V453000> 75 is a bit high :D
15:54:19  <mek42> is spectate an option for any multiplayer?
15:58:09  <LSky> most servers should have that
16:01:41  <LSky> and yes, 75% is a high, its just that if you make the map large enough, there's going to be large island, haha
16:03:46  <LSky> it might actually make FISH ships relevant, if the islands are further away from each other than the max range of Av8's A380
16:05:01  <LSky> i should probably just make a scenario map or something
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16:14:50  <mek42> in a multiplayer game, is the ~ terminal also the chatbox?
16:15:08  <LSky> thats the console, isnt it?
16:15:13  <mek42> yes
16:15:17  <LSky> you should be able to chat just by using ENTER
16:17:42  <mek42> tyvm :)
16:26:34  <mek42> does a section of straight up or straight down track hold two cars or just one?
16:26:55  <mek42> planning a passing place in a rather tight spot
16:27:12  <Pinkbeast> Different carriages have different lengths, but you can see the total length of a train in half-tile units in the depot.
16:28:15  <LSky> i think up/down doesnt change the amount of carrriages it can hold compared to flat tracks
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16:52:31  <mek42> ok, gotcha - i only started playing a couple days ago
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17:04:27  <LSky> mek42, make sure to ask if you are running into issues or have questions, people are usually willing to help out
17:04:59  <mek42> sounds great, tyvm!
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17:23:45  <Sacro> Is there a difference between a metric horse and an imperial horse?
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17:25:08  <Sacro> oh, seems there is
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17:58:01  <mek42> would anyone be interested in a multiplayer to help a new player learn?
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18:45:20  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26274 /trunk/src/lang (danish.txt norwegian_nynorsk.txt) (2014-01-22 18:45:12 UTC)
18:45:21  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:22  <DorpsGek> danish - 6 changes by Elyon
18:45:23  <DorpsGek> norwegian_nynorsk - 2 changes by skjaeve
18:50:36  <fjb> Moin
18:51:26  <Kjetil> are you from south of denmark/northern germany, fjb ?
18:52:36  <fjb> South of northern Germany.
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19:07:42  <Wolf01> buonasera :>
19:07:58  <frosch123> hola
19:14:26  <fjb> Moin Wolf01
19:14:30  <fjb> Quak frosch123
19:15:11  <frosch123> moin fjb
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20:17:19  <orudge> OpenTTD for OS/2 lives again, it seems :)
20:21:34  <frosch123> there is an up-to-date enough compiler?
20:21:55  <frosch123> or did someone write an llvm->osx compiler? :p
20:22:04  <frosch123> s/x/2/
20:22:11  <frosch123> almost the same :p
20:22:47  <LSky> when every first letter/number of a new text string takes on the color of the previous bit of text, did I do something terribly wrong whilst compiling r25493 with pavel's daylength patch?
20:23:07  <LSky> it looks silly.
20:23:33  <frosch123> only one letter?
20:24:05  <LSky> only the first one, letter or number
20:24:28  <LSky> example, in the town gui, it says:  Town is not growing
20:24:54  <LSky> 'town is n() growing'  is black, 'ot'  is red
20:25:25  <LSky> Population: 143 , 43 would be in yellow, the rest black
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20:27:24  <orudge> frosch123: well, there's GCC 4.8, and Paul Smedley, the chap who has been doing all kinds of ports to OS/2, seems to have fixed whatever was broken - shall try to get a patch from him
20:31:40  <glx> LSky: probably memory corruption
20:32:24  <LSky> whilst compiling?
20:33:03  <glx> no when running, but can be caused by the patch
20:33:19  <LSky> ill try compiling without it first
20:33:32  <glx> yes that's always the first thing to do
20:33:58  <LSky> could it have anything to do with me having to ./configure --without-lzma ?
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20:34:19  <glx> no, lzma is used only for savegames
20:34:24  <LSky> alright
20:44:18  <LSky> strange
20:44:35  <LSky> even when just compiling r25493, I get the same issue
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20:50:08  <Alberth> so it's not the patch
20:52:12  <LSky> thats my conclusion as well
20:52:22  <LSky> it seems kind of unlikely that its the revision
20:56:35  <Alberth> yep, I don't remember anyone reporting such an issue
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21:39:06  <frosch123> LSky: try to update to r25526
21:39:17  <frosch123> if you need to use such old revisions anyway :p
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21:40:24  <frosch123> 25493 is right in the middle of when the text layouting engine was replaced
21:41:06  <LSky> thanks!
21:41:12  <LSky> ill try that
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21:53:33  <LSky> thanks, that fixed it frosch123
21:53:55  <frosch123> yw
21:54:52  <LSky> doh, it crashed already
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21:56:06  <frosch123> try updating even more maybe
21:56:14  <frosch123> you are in a weird revision range
21:56:19  <LSky> alright
21:56:54  <LSky> any suggestions how far I should proceed?
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21:58:26  <LSky> this is what im trying to apply;
21:58:51  <frosch123> 25600 maybe
21:59:10  <LSky> is there some way for me to figure out what sort of changes are being made with newer revision that I could compare to that patch, perhaps until it hits something that the patch changes?
21:59:46  <Alberth> sure you can ask the exact change made in each revision
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21:59:51  <frosch123> i would expect the only conflict you wuold run into is the savegame version
22:00:12  <LSky> saveload.cpp?
22:00:16  <frosch123> the rest you can likely apply to the newest revison
22:00:31  <frosch123> saveload.cpp and settings.ini accordingly
22:00:33  <LSky> i ran into 2 errors when I tried the trunk
22:00:59  <frosch123> and misc_sl
22:01:26  <LSky> src/openttd.cpp.rej and saveload.cpp were the two errors I got
22:02:04  <LSky> hm
22:02:13  <frosch123> ah, i guess ClearStorageChanges was renamed
22:02:21  <frosch123> you should be able to merge that rename by hand :)
22:02:36  <LSky> for 25600 you mean?
22:02:45  <frosch123> anyway, savegame version needs to be increased by one wrt. whatever you patch it on
22:02:56  <frosch123> and misc_sl and settings.ini have to use that incremented savegame version
22:03:06  <frosch123> LSky: no, for HEAD
22:03:23  <LSky> yeah, this is where it starts turning into Chinese for me, im not following you any more :(
22:03:34  <Wolf01> 'night all
22:03:37  <LSky> nn
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22:03:58  <frosch123> LSky: you said you had rejects in openttd.cpp
22:04:04  <LSky> correct
22:04:29  <frosch123> you can apply the diff manually, because the code is still the same, except one function got renamed
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22:04:48  <LSky> yeah, i looked into the .rej, but I could recognize the error
22:04:54  <frosch123> for the saveload.cpp conflict you have to adjust also misc_sl and settings.ini
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22:07:11  <LSky> alright, so the .rej just shows the rejected code that was supposed to be applied?
22:07:22  <glx> yes
22:12:32  <LSky> while you just explained that its the ClearStorage thing that needs to be renamed, is there a way to find out for myself what's causing this, other than asking openttd wizards :D?
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22:15:56  <Alberth> basically by looking at what changed in each revision
22:16:31  <Alberth> or at changes in some range of revisions, but then it's harder to see
22:17:34  <LSky> alright
22:17:57  <Alberth> alternatively, look at what got rejected, and where
22:18:15  <Alberth> then look at the change history of the file around those lines
22:18:17  <LSky> right, so if I check the .rej file, does that mean the whole part is rejected?
22:18:29  <LSky> or can it be one particular function?
22:18:37  <Alberth> no, just one or more hunk
22:18:41  <Alberth> *hunks
22:18:42  <LSky> alright
22:19:02  <Alberth> everything in the diff which is not in the .rej is applied
22:19:15  <LSky> right, that's what I understood so far
22:19:43  <LSky> by the way, this is probably totally not the appropriate avenue of learning how to work with the source code, Im guessing
22:19:45  <Alberth> and that works in hunks (blocks of changes between the @@ lines)
22:20:41  <Alberth> handling patches is one aspect, and at some point you have to get your hands dirty by trying things :)
22:21:02  <Alberth> it doesn't learn you to program though :)
22:21:07  <glx> yeah fixing conflicts of big patches is probably not the best way to start
22:21:18  <LSky> lol
22:21:23  <LSky> thats what I figured
22:21:48  <Alberth> I try to avoid it like the plague :)
22:22:20  <LSky> any particular openttd wiki page thatd be a better start?
22:22:22  <Alberth> usually by hand-editing the patch file itself :p
22:22:44  <glx> I did a lot for miniin when the window system was rewritten :)
22:22:47  <Alberth> what do you want to learn / know about
22:23:03  <glx> (fixing conflicts)
22:23:24  <glx> hand-editing patch can be dangerous
22:23:31  <Alberth> that was before my rewrite, I guess
22:24:04  <Alberth> oh, it's dangerous indeed, especially in patch queues without backups
22:25:07  <LSky> yeah thats a good question Alberth, I dont even know the answer to that though
22:25:24  <LSky> at the moment Im just trying to help solve issues that were running into
22:25:35  <glx> anyway maintaining miniin was a pain and we weren't supposed to do it
22:26:34  <frosch123> night
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22:27:34  <Alberth> gtg, good night
22:27:46  <LSky> night
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22:29:46  <Eddi|zuHause>
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22:31:51  <mek42> if a pass through station passes onto a dock, can a carriage (articulated) turn around?
22:33:20  <Eddi|zuHause> trains flip around at the end of the line, and (optionally) also in stations, articulated or not.
22:33:41  <FLHerne> RVs, more likely
22:33:48  <FLHerne> I don't think so?
22:34:15  <Eddi|zuHause> trucks can also turn around at the end of the road, but trams cannot
22:34:37  <Eddi|zuHause> trams need a special turning place (half-tile)
22:35:31  <FLHerne> Ah yes, trucks can. I just checked
22:36:12  <Aristide> o/
22:36:15  <Aristide> Hi !
22:37:05  <mek42> ty
22:37:11  <mek42> hi!
22:37:13  <Aristide> Huhu in Lyon TCL add a new service, you can borrow umbrellas or strollers xD
22:37:41  <Aristide> BUt you must deposit 100€ or 20€ :x
22:38:12  <glx> the only way to force you to give it back :)
22:38:25  <Aristide> :)
22:38:36  <Aristide> glx: Yes
22:38:43  <Aristide> But its cool
22:40:34  <Aristide> So, I'm waiting for new future subway extension on B line
22:40:35  <Aristide> :x
22:41:43  <LSky> night
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