Log for #openttd on 25th January 2014:
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00:08:16  <Wolf01> nn
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03:29:01  <Pikka> but apart from that
03:45:23  <Flygon> Hyvaa huomenta Pikka!
03:45:40  <Flygon> Except it's actually 2:45PM
03:47:15  <Eddi|zuHause> and it's english only
03:47:40  <Eddi|zuHause> and you're missing an À
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03:51:04  <Pikka> 1:45, actually :) or 1:50 now.
03:51:58  <Flygon> Pikka: If you're in Brisbane, advocate to move Brissie to the NSW/Vic timezone :p
03:52:06  <Flygon> Eddi: I'm lazy and I'm on a US keyboard @_@
03:52:25  <Flygon> Everywhere I go, I upset the Finnish @_@
03:52:45  <Pikka> Flygon: people complain that their curtains will fade and cows don't have watches
03:52:45  <Flygon> I once got into an argument with a Finn over when it's acceptable to use the term 'an' over the term 'a'
03:53:11  <Flygon> Pikka: Last I checked, urban Brisbane hasn't been rural farmland since 2005
03:53:15  * Flygon runs away VERY quickly
03:53:28  <Pikka> last I checked, Queensland isn't only Brisbane. :P
03:53:31  <Flygon> Seriously though, I specifically meant Brissie and the Goldcoast
03:53:45  <Flygon> Yes, but the area most hit by the DST difference is Brisbane
03:53:53  <Flygon> Given how bloody close it is to the border
03:54:19  <Pikka> and being in a different timezone from the rest of the state isn't going to cause even more problems?
03:54:50  <Flygon> Depends on the Queenslander I speak to
03:55:11  <Flygon> Most of the ones from the Gold Coast region I spoke to are all basically "Just stuff us into NSW/Vic timezone"
03:56:27  <Pikka> but then you make a timezone border between GC and Brisbane
03:56:53  <Eddi|zuHause> you always have timezone borders somewhere...
03:57:00  <Pikka> exactly
03:57:07  <Pikka> so may as well leave it at the actual state border
03:58:04  <Flygon> Eddi: The issue here is, is that half the year, QLD shares timezones with the rest of the East coast
03:58:22  <Eddi|zuHause> ps: it's 4:58 here
03:58:40  <Flygon> Stuffing the entire QLD into DST would result in absurdly long daytimes for everyone north of Brisbane
03:59:01  <Flygon> And removing DST from NSW/Vic would be mildly annoying for Victorians
03:59:24  <Eddi|zuHause> your country is just too large :p
03:59:36  <Flygon> Your country is too small D:
03:59:53  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, we thought that as well, but other people had something against it :p
04:00:07  <Flygon> Ah, right
04:00:10  <Flygon> .de
04:00:15  <Flygon> Why did I think .de was Denmark
04:00:24  <Flygon> Excuse me while I go derp in the backyard
04:00:28  <Flygon> brb, feeding the chooks
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04:07:40  <Flygon> Back
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05:43:18  <andythenorth> bonsoir
05:43:30  <andythenorth> Pikka so got any more cookies?
05:43:40  <Pikka> yes
05:43:45  <andythenorth> linky?
05:44:00  <Pikka> give me an hour or two?
05:44:07  <Pikka> if you want a grf :)
05:44:30  <andythenorth> ho ho
05:45:23  <Pikka> there's one up at the moment, but I've fixed the sprite offsets, amongst other things, since I uploaded that one, so I'll get you a fixed one. :P I want to get this vehicle I'm working on at the moment in first though.
05:48:58  <andythenorth> herp offsets
05:49:05  * andythenorth has been avoiding fixing all the offsets in IH
05:51:31  <Pikka> I made a vehicle which was just a footprint
05:51:50  <Pikka> then turned on the bounding boxes in openttd, and shifted the footprint vehicle sprite so it fit. :P
05:52:14  <Pikka> simples
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06:01:57  <Pikka> then, of course, the trick is to have drawn all your sprites to the same template, so you can use the same offsets for all of them. :P
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06:21:19  <andythenorth> Pikka: also pro tip: don't tweak all your offsets, then rebuild the set to use 10/8 length, and every 'vehicle' is an articulated 3-unit vehicle with the sprites on the middle unit :P
06:21:45  <Pikka> yes, well
06:21:56  <Pikka> omit "tweak all your offsets, then" ;)
06:33:18  <andythenorth> oh dear
06:33:25  <andythenorth> I've written code that crashes python hard
06:33:29  <andythenorth> never managed that before
06:33:42  <andythenorth> 'achievement unlocked'
06:35:30  <Flygon> I once made an emulator BSoD Windows.
06:35:37  <Flygon> Never trust Flygon's 68k ASM.
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06:51:59  <Pikka> andythenorth, here's something of a cookie:
06:52:15  <Pikka> I'm working on the steam-era passenger coach atm, might not get it finished before I have to go out to dins
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06:57:11  <andythenorth> Pikka: nice steamies
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06:58:51  * andythenorth bbl
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08:59:27  <LSky> morning
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10:40:20  <Wolf01> hello o/
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10:56:48  <LSky> if im running into a 'could not load savegame' error whilst trying to connect to my recently compiled server with a recently compiled patch, is that a server or a client issue?
10:57:54  <LSky> I found this:
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10:58:25  <Rubidium> it's a patch issue I'd say
10:59:34  <LSky> so its not a permissions issue?
11:00:46  <LSky> ah
11:01:00  <LSky> wait, is it because I compile my client --witouth-lzma ?
11:02:14  <peter1138> if you're trying to load an lzma compressed game, yes
11:02:20  <LSky> hm
11:02:25  <peter1138> (this may or may not include the intro game)
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11:03:32  <LSky> ive followed the MinGW wiki instructions, but I always am unable to compile when not using --without-lzma, apparently thats missing even though I installed all the mentioned libraries
11:04:44  <Xhadius> Hello. Anyone here whou could help me to setup an 1.3.3 TTD-Server? When I use the official repository, I only receive the server 1.1.4
11:06:33  <peter1138>
11:07:42  <Xhadius> Is there any step by step for this?
11:07:49  <Xhadius> I'm currently failing kind of
11:07:52  <peter1138> Er... download package... install it...
11:08:47  <peter1138> Although if you're only getting 1.1.4 then probably your distribution isn't in the list, so you may want to download the generic binaries, untar that and just run it where it is.
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11:09:19  <Xhadius> found my mistake now... thanks anyways :D
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11:13:49  <Xhadius> Error: Failed to find a graphics set. Please acquire a graphics set for OpenTTD. See section 4.1 of readme.txt.
11:14:16  <LordAro> have you looked at section 4.1 of readme.txt?
11:14:36  <Xhadius> Whenever I find the readme...
11:14:45  <Xhadius> oh, found
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11:20:39  <peter1138> :-)
11:23:55  <LSky> strange, I downloaded xz again, but its still complaining about liblzma missing
11:24:21  <Eddi|zuHause> did you also install xz-devel?
11:24:56  <peter1138> is that related to liblzma?
11:25:01  <LSky> the wiki doesnt mention that
11:25:27  <LSky> so Im guessing no
11:25:38  <LSky> I followed this;
11:25:38  <LSky>
11:26:17  <Eddi|zuHause> "xz" is an alternate name for "lzma2"
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11:27:40  <Eddi|zuHause> LSky: so did you make sure it's actually there (in /usr/lib or /usr/local/lib usually)
11:29:11  <LSky> im not entirely sure where im supposed to be looking for it
11:29:31  <LSky> i have no /usr/lib or /usr/local/lib folder
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11:59:20  <peter1138> so...
12:00:04  <adf88> Hi people
12:00:04  <adf88> I have few small patches
12:00:04  <adf88> you may be interested in
12:00:04  <adf88> they are about "diagonal" tile areas - calculating, iterating...
12:00:04  <adf88>
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12:00:54  <adf88> 00-optimise-diagonal-highlight-dirty.diff
12:00:54  <adf88> I found that "diagonal" tile selection has significant impact on performance
12:00:54  <adf88> I even managed to freeze my OpenTTD for few seconds while selecting very large area
12:00:54  <adf88> the cause lies in SetSelectionTilesDirty
12:00:54  <adf88> it iterates all the tiles to call MarkTileDirtyByTile on them
12:00:56  <adf88> this is inefficient
12:00:56  <adf88> I suggest to replace this loop with a single MarkAllViewportsDirty call
12:00:58  <adf88> see the patch for details, everything is explained in comments
12:03:35  <adf88> 01-diagonal-coordinate-system.diff
12:03:35  <adf88> OpenTTD use "diagonal" coordinates in some places
12:03:35  <adf88> DiagonalTileIterator, diagonal tile selection etc.
12:03:35  <adf88> this patch formalizes this coordinate system
12:03:35  <adf88> by providing functions to convert coordinates
12:03:36  <adf88> and documenting the way they works
12:03:36  <adf88> see the patch for details
12:05:25  <adf88> ------------
12:05:25  <adf88> 02-fix-diagonal-convert-tunnelbridge.diff
12:05:25  <adf88> this fixes the FS#5866 bug
12:05:25  <adf88> in CmdConvertRail there is a test: "If both ends of tunnel/bridge are in the range, do not try to convert twice it would cause assert because of different test and exec runs"
12:05:25  <adf88> this test is performed always "orthogonally"
12:05:26  <adf88> dispite of whether the selection is actually orthogonal
12:05:26  <adf88> thus when selection is digonal, resuts are wrong
12:05:28  <adf88> the patch fixes it (using new functions from the previous patch)
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12:08:46  <adf88> -----------
12:08:46  <adf88> 03-use-new-funcs-in-diag-tile-heighlight.diff
12:08:46  <adf88> 04-use-new-funcs-in-diag-tile-iter.diff
12:08:46  <adf88> these patches make use of the new coordinate conversion functions
12:09:39  <adf88> ------
12:09:39  <adf88> 05-simplify-diag-tile-iter.diff
12:09:39  <adf88> DiagonalTileIterator is soooo bizarre inside, especially the operator++
12:09:39  <adf88> the patch greatly simplifies it
12:10:34  <adf88> That's all!
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12:13:45  <Pikka> so what, peter1138?
12:15:22  <Pikka> this looks like a job for the forums, rather than here, adf88 :)
12:19:02  <adf88> well... these are patches about OpenTTD internals, bug fixes, code simplification etc.
12:19:07  <adf88> no new features
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12:21:46  <Eddi|zuHause> adf88: generally anything taking more than 3 lines is not really a chat might not be the right place :)
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12:35:16  <planetmaker> adf88, for my understanding: the patch you posted in FS#5866 can stand on its own?
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12:51:04  <adf88> yes
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13:38:59  <V453000> feature request: bribe the local investigator
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13:55:58  <andythenorth> ho ho
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13:59:15  <Pinkbeast> Bribe a local farmer to keep putting fields on top of trees, it's cheaper. :-)
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14:04:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and then you have to buy the fields back from him as well :p
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14:05:50  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes the game is a bit schitzophrenic
14:06:31  <Eddi|zuHause> they count every single tree as if they were holy, but blocking farmland has no consquences whatsoever
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14:08:12  <Pinkbeast> At the point I've got the money to bribe an authority, I'll gladly buy back every inch of farmland to plant trees on it. :-)
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14:11:29  <efess> are there any noticeable performance benefits to running 64 bit openttd over 32 bit?
14:12:57  <andythenorth> so how do I debug a python script that crashes python hard
14:13:07  <andythenorth> specifically, it crashes the error reporting...
14:15:23  <andythenorth> hmm
14:15:29  <andythenorth> adding a timeout stops it crashing hard
14:15:31  <andythenorth> but still...
14:16:02  <andythenorth>
14:18:27  <planetmaker> efess, there aren't. On the contrary
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14:20:28  <andythenorth> hmm, if I can't read errors from multiprocessing jobs, that's too much of a black box
14:23:50  <Eddi|zuHause> each thread has a stack trace
14:26:58  <Eddi|zuHause> but all this stuff is precisely why i pickled stuff
14:27:11  <Eddi|zuHause> then i don't have to deal with python threading
14:27:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i just say "make -j6"
14:27:36  <Eddi|zuHause> or -j12 if i feel like it
14:28:13  <Pikka> andythenorth: when I get to industries, I'm happy to share resources ;)
14:28:28  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: where are you pickling?
14:29:08  <andythenorth> I could do without python MP here, it's a 25% speed boost, but we're talking 12s instead of 16s
14:29:50  <Eddi|zuHause> in scripts/
14:32:09  <Eddi|zuHause> basically in my generator process i construct pixa shapes, which i pickle, then in every image-processing step i unpickle this pixa shape and render the image
14:33:09  <Eddi|zuHause> everything that pixa needs is in the pickle
14:34:34  <Pikka> sounds perplexing
14:36:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it's perplexingly simple
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14:39:50  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that is perplexingly simple :)
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14:40:28  <andythenorth> wonder if I could use the same for templating :P
14:40:31  <andythenorth> probably not
14:40:37  <andythenorth> everything is interconnected :P
14:41:07  <planetmaker> Pikka, you making 32bpp sprites for FIRS? :)
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14:41:16  <planetmaker> hello everyone also
14:41:35  <Pikka> :)
14:41:38  <Pikka> did I say that?
14:41:46  <andythenorth> he said share resources
14:41:47  <planetmaker> no, I hear grass growing
14:41:52  <andythenorth> I make the sprites, he uses them :)
14:42:22  <Pikka> that too
14:43:23  <Pikka> but right now I think I shall bedward
14:43:32  <Pikka> gnight etc
14:43:37  <planetmaker> g'night, Pikka
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14:49:57  <andythenorth> hmm
14:49:59  <andythenorth> random triggers
14:50:04  <andythenorth> how do they work? o_O
14:50:06  * andythenorth wikis
14:53:22  <andythenorth> oh that was easy
14:53:30  <andythenorth> nml docs ftw
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15:26:29  <peter1138>
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15:53:41  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: important thing to remember about triggers is: don't put them into callbacks
15:54:11  <andythenorth> because...?
15:54:23  <Eddi|zuHause> because they are never triggered then
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15:55:44  <Eddi|zuHause> gtg
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16:02:17  <andythenorth> herp
16:02:27  <andythenorth> how to zip dicts together in a single line? :P
16:03:08  <andythenorth> dict.update()
16:03:17  <andythenorth> how rare
16:11:16  <Xaroth|Work> dict(a.items() + b.items())
16:11:27  <Xaroth|Work> or actually
16:11:35  <Xaroth|Work> dict(list(a.items()) + list(b.items()))
16:11:55  <Xaroth|Work> since py3k .items() yields a generator
16:12:44  <Xaroth|Work> or z = a.copy() ; z.update(b)
16:18:11  <andythenorth> ah, the world of shame that is in every successful project
16:18:12  <andythenorth> :P
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16:25:35  <andythenorth> pikka has ruined 8bpp for me :P
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16:29:36  <planetmaker> hm, andy
16:29:54  <planetmaker> gotta change drawing style?
16:33:15  <efess> I'm getting an Error 1 from make while making some changes, how do you enable verbose output?
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16:38:43  <andythenorth> planetmaker: feeling like it :P
16:38:50  <andythenorth> although it's too big as a project :)
16:38:57  <andythenorth> no going to happen
16:39:13  <Alberth> efess: usually there is a V = @   like rule that  you can override or change
16:39:34  <andythenorth> lo Alberth
16:39:49  <Alberth> hi hi andythenorth, planetmaker
16:39:55  <planetmaker> hihi
16:41:15  <planetmaker> andythenorth, did pikka provide more than trains (did I miss that?)
16:41:28  <andythenorth> planetmaker: no not yet
16:42:00  <efess> Alberth: I see ifdef VERBOSE in the file, does this mean run configure with VERBOSE=1?
16:42:05  <planetmaker> honestly I think they looked too clean still. The 8bpp stuff looks more used :)
16:42:21  <planetmaker> efess, usually make output gives slightly more feedback than just error 1
16:42:27  <planetmaker> in the lines preceeding that
16:42:38  <planetmaker> and make _V= will make it more verbose
16:42:40  <planetmaker> without reconfigure
16:43:25  <Alberth> efess:  Since it's in,  VERBOSE is used at "make" time
16:43:38  <efess> AH
16:44:09  <Alberth> ./configure  basically copies *.in  modifies them a bit, and outputs the files again without .in
16:44:20  <efess> planetmaker: 'make output' command doesn't do anything useful, unless I don't understand
16:44:41  <planetmaker> ehm :)
16:44:49  <planetmaker> yes
16:45:02  <planetmaker> I mean the stuff make prints on command line without any parameter given at all
16:45:15  <Alberth> what planetmaker meant is that 'make' produces more output than one line  "error 1"
16:45:16  <efess> right
16:45:20  <planetmaker> there's even in normal mode ^^
16:46:02  <planetmaker> you need to look at the last lines prior to the error. How many depends on how much parallel make you have running
16:46:17  <efess> Should only be one
16:46:22  <Alberth> the actual command-lines being executed are often very long, you want to avoid looking at them :p
16:46:32  <efess> not using the Jobs param
16:46:55  <planetmaker> so what's your actual output? (use a paste service)
16:47:04  <planetmaker> and paste the last 20 lines
16:47:09  <planetmaker> or something like that
16:47:28  <efess> Here's the last few lines
16:47:29  <efess>
16:48:12  <planetmaker> eh... can you give the output without the verbose stuff?
16:48:16  <planetmaker> and that's only 5 lines
16:48:32  <planetmaker> and possibly give all output
16:49:01  <efess> I figure the last g++ command compiling the unix.cpp file gives the error, but I can run it fine.
16:50:38  <efess>
16:50:46  <efess> that's entire output w/o VERBOSE
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16:52:16  <planetmaker> strange
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16:52:45  <planetmaker> what system do you compile on?
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16:52:55  <efess> gnu/linux
16:53:07  <planetmaker> I guessed so much...
16:53:18  <efess> it compiles fine in mingw
16:53:30  <planetmaker> yeah, it also compiles fine on gnu/linux
16:53:39  <efess> well not with my changes
16:53:55  <planetmaker> well. There obviously is the thing you should have mentioned before
16:53:58  <efess> figure there must be some way to see what's causing the error
16:53:59  <efess> :(
16:55:16  <efess> yea, I didn't expect help on fixing the error, just to see if there was a way to show more output from the build chain
16:56:22  <andythenorth> hmm
16:56:28  * andythenorth wonders what to do next
16:56:45  <planetmaker> efess, usually there's output on compile errors
16:56:54  <planetmaker> so dunno what you did to get rid of it
16:57:18  <planetmaker> andythenorth, 32bpp sprites for FIRS, 4x only (no need to do the other zoom levels as I found out)
16:57:22  <planetmaker> :P
16:57:25  <andythenorth> :P
16:57:46  <planetmaker> (no, I mean that honestly, OpenTTD scales it reasonably well for me. At least for landscape)
16:57:52  <efess> probably not a compile error then
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17:02:00  <peter1138> Did we ever support partial GRFs?
17:02:08  <peter1138> (With 2x/4x stripped out)
17:05:35  <andythenorth> anyone want to patch extended vehicle info for buy menu
17:05:51  <andythenorth> specifically autorefit, and altered cargo decay rates
17:06:07  <andythenorth> maybe as progressive disclosure
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17:06:28  <michi_cc> We do in so far as the MD5 sum is only done over the data part, but bananas might act funny. grfstrip is also existing.
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17:19:12  <Xhadius> Hi, ist there any way to remove the company password from a company with the admin console?
17:19:18  *** Virtual [~Virtual@] has joined #openttd
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17:21:51  <planetmaker> Xhadius, not directly. But you can move players or yourself into the company
17:21:57  <planetmaker> and then set an empty password
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17:22:59  <Xhadius> How to do that?
17:23:49  <planetmaker> rcon password "move clientID companyID"
17:27:43  <Xhadius> ty
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17:30:22  <mek42> hiyas!
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17:42:51  <andythenorth> oops
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17:48:39  <LSky> hi mek42
17:49:05  <mek42> how are things?
17:49:53  <Rubidium> efess: is that a patched build?
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17:50:27  <efess> Rubidium: yea
17:50:36  <Rubidium> efess: if so, you're probably missing some file needed for the build... but for some reason make isn't really verbose about it
17:51:13  <efess> hmm thanks, I'll check!
17:51:17  <Rubidium> it's probably the file that's alphabetically after "os/unix/unix.cpp" in sources.list
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17:52:24  <Aristide> Yeah !
17:52:25  <Aristide> o/
17:52:30  <Aristide> My beautiful bus network <3
17:52:35  <Aristide> Hi everybody :3
17:54:41  <mek42> hiyas aristide
17:54:47  <Aristide> Hi mek42 o/
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17:56:46  <mek42> i've mostly figured out the non-PBS signals, haven't done combos yet, still having some learning pains for more complex systems, but getting there
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18:09:41  <TheZonta> Hey Folks
18:10:01  <efess> Rubidium: Thank you, that was it.. I forgot to svn add the file before I ran diff
18:10:18  <efess> the fact it stopped at os\unix threw me off
18:10:53  <TheZonta> Someone know if there a Tram set that allow the transportation of coal/grain/livestock/water/oil ?
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18:11:04  <planetmaker> yup, someone knows
18:12:19  <planetmaker> if your actual question is as to which: try heqs
18:13:20  <TheZonta> Yes my question was which one XD - And thank ill check that out
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18:40:24  <LSky> there doesnt happen to be anyone around with a 64bit Windows compiling environment?
18:47:17  <Alberth> it may help if you ask what you want to know :)
18:51:06  <planetmaker> hm, yeah. Answering to meta questions is very dangerous as you then quickly will find yourself in a position to be asked to answer questions one has no clue about at all
18:51:42  <planetmaker> (or which are too boring to care to answer :P )
18:54:33  <Alberth> uh oh, zephyris is beating us to coding :p
18:56:25  <planetmaker> uh oh :)
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19:04:23  <LSky> ill try to ask differently :D
19:05:48  <LSky> if im generating a map which requires a 64bit version of the game, will a server thats loading this pregenerated map (scenario) and players connecting to that server require a 64bit build as well? im currently running out of memory when attempting to generate one.
19:06:06  <planetmaker> uh... map? Maps don't require anything special
19:06:18  <LSky> not actual memory, but it cant give me more memory because its 32
19:06:34  <planetmaker> A map can't be bigger than 4GByte anyway....
19:06:40  <LSky> well yeah
19:06:41  <planetmaker> @calc 2048*2048*8
19:06:41  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 33554432
19:06:55  <planetmaker> @calc 2048*2048*8 / 1024*1024
19:06:55  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 33554432
19:06:59  <Rubidium> according to the forum the map generation isn't really memory efficient
19:07:01  <planetmaker> @calc 2048*2048*8 / (1024*1024)
19:07:01  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 32
19:07:12  <LSky> but doesnt generation require more memory than just loading a pregenerated map?
19:07:20  <planetmaker> yes, that it does
19:08:13  <LSky> alright, so Im hoping that if I can generate a map with a 64bit client (which i think I need because the 32bit version obviously cant allocate more/enough), I wont need this after its generated
19:08:43  <LSky> and I can just go ahead and put it on a normal server and play with a normal client
19:08:48  <Rubidium> since you're patching anyhow, you could try the patches that reduce the memory requirements
19:09:09  <LSky> oh, those are out there?
19:09:33  <Rubidium> *someone* should look at the patches fixing that issue and commit them if they're sound
19:09:59  * Rubidium fears that someone to be himself... though I'm somewhat time constraint at the moment
19:12:03  <planetmaker> hm, the sign list totally misses a or several buttons to select the companies you want to see signs of
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19:17:10  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: edited my post :P
19:22:49  <mek42> LSky - I'm running 64 bit Linux if that helps at all
19:24:34  <LSky> Thanks, but I was planning on using the 64bit build to make a nice scenario, which is proabbly best done on my desktop
19:34:46  <planetmaker> 64bit, linux and desktop are not mutually exclusive :P
19:35:07  <LSky> right, but if you just have W7 on your desktop
19:35:15  <LSky> that complicates things
19:37:11  <frosch123> why does 64bit matter?
19:38:36  <LSky> 32bit client cant allocate enough memory
19:39:03  <LSky> at least, thats what I gather from the crash report when I do try
19:45:10  <mek42> LSky - use cygwin?
19:46:05  <mek42> what is the scenario hoped to be about?
19:48:35  <mek42> LSky - or run a virtualbox linux session long enough to do your thing
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20:17:04  <andythenorth> slow compile is slow
20:17:39  <andythenorth> Alberth / Eddi|zuHause plausible solution?
20:17:46  <andythenorth> I've never had to handle this kind of thing before
20:18:48  <Alberth> ditch windows? :)
20:19:31  <Alberth> I have no clue, didn't touch that OS in the last 17 years or so :p
20:19:56  <andythenorth> I am not building a VM to test this :P
20:20:05  <Alberth> it sounds like a race condition of some kind
20:20:25  <Alberth> but it doesn't say what goes wrong either
20:20:39  <andythenorth> he gets permissions errors
20:20:50  <andythenorth> I would have expected shutil.rmtree(graphics_output_path) to return before the script can advance
20:21:02  <andythenorth> but maybe Windows does a bad thing
20:21:03  * Alberth expects that too
20:21:28  <andythenorth> I don't expect to have to write my own code for checking that stuff has done what it said it would do
20:21:32  <Alberth> maybe it triggers some update service or cache stuff
20:22:03  <Alberth> ie it's a smart OS, anything can happen :p
20:22:29  <andythenorth> :D
20:22:34  <Alberth> it may be an upstream bug :)
20:24:11  <Alberth>
20:24:29  <Alberth> and there are lots more if you search a little
20:26:50  <Alberth> you could consider not removing the generated stuff :)
20:29:18  <andythenorth> ho
20:29:25  <andythenorth> why do I remove them?
20:29:29  <andythenorth> must be a reason :P
20:34:38  <andythenorth> am I going to get skinned alive if I bundle railtypes in a train grf?
20:34:48  <andythenorth> it's what I would want personally as a player
20:35:10  * skyem123 prepares the skinning equipment
20:38:13  <Alberth> nuts does it too, doesn't it?
20:39:03  * skyem123 realizes he needs another set of skinning equipment.
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20:52:38  <planetmaker> andythenorth, the problem then again is that I can't combine (train) NewGRFs properly
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21:07:06  <andythenorth> he
21:07:10  <andythenorth> I never want to :)
21:07:41  <andythenorth> I can't think of an actually good solution to this problem
21:07:51  <andythenorth> there are solutions...but none good :)
21:09:53  <skyem123> uh oh...
21:10:00  <skyem123> my hdd disconected
21:13:09  <skyem123> I thought that it failed. luckily it was just unplugged. :-o <- Phew!
21:13:14  <planetmaker> you should quickly make a backup copy of the whole disk
21:13:33  <skyem123> 1.5 TB?
21:13:44  <planetmaker> spare disk helps :)
21:13:58  <skyem123> I have 5 TB of space on all of my hdd. (some of it used)
21:14:41  <Rubidium> backups... what's the use?
21:15:12  * Rubidium wonders how many people make backups without regularly checking whether they can restore their system from said backups
21:15:31  <skyem123> Windows 8.1 does not let you back up.
21:16:35  <Rubidium> ah, good to know
21:16:53  <Rubidium> so avoid Windows 8.x as if it were a plague
21:17:03  <skyem123> Guess what i have?
21:17:28  *** retro|cz [] has joined #openttd
21:17:56  <Rubidium> a Windows XP cd and you're ready to downgrade?
21:18:01  <Rubidium> s/down/up/
21:18:50  <skyem123> I have a windoes xp product key in my head. I had to reinstall so mutch times that i memorized it.
21:19:10  <skyem123> :-p
21:19:31  * Rubidium still knows it as well, but I haven't installed it in about a decade
21:20:30  <skyem123> my windows xp disk is corrupted.
21:23:10  <Rubidium> only sad thing of Windows XP is the fragmentation one gets over time
21:23:26  <skyem123> defrag.exe
21:23:28  <Rubidium> laptop of $BOSS has over 80% fragmented files
21:23:36  <Xaroth|Work> not nearly as effective, skyem123
21:23:45  <glx> and not enough free space to defrag ?
21:23:59  <skyem123> I avoid fragmentation by not deleting anything
21:24:10  <Rubidium> deleting doesn't fragment
21:24:59  <Rubidium> glx: it has a few virtualbox instances; one is so fragmented over the disk that it never manages to find enough space to put that file (even though 70% is empty)
21:25:13  <glx> swap file in the middle of a drive is a good fragmenter
21:25:42  <skyem123> I thought it happened when the computer splits a large file up to fit into the free spaces that were created when small files were deleted.
21:25:45  <glx> worse when it has been increased on a used drive
21:25:51  <Rubidium> anyhow, now I got ultradefrag running, but it goes extremely slow (even in boot time mode)
21:25:52  * skyem123 gasps for air
21:26:18  <glx> yeah offline mode is required for the best defrag
21:26:30  <glx> else many files can't be moved
21:27:03  <Rubidium> skyem123: but your OS will only split large files when there isn't enough contiguous space, or it doesn't know the final size at the end in which case it will just splatter it all over the disk for some reason
21:27:33  <Xaroth|Work> or when it tries to write multiple things at the same time :|
21:28:57  <Rubidium> in any case, SSDs don't see as much of the performance impact of fragmentation than those old spinning bastards
21:29:18  <skyem123> SSDs are expensive
21:29:28  <glx> better not defrag a SSD
21:29:36  <Rubidium> skyem123: really?
21:29:41  <Xaroth|Work> win7 disables defrag on SSDs by default
21:29:47  <Xaroth|Work> thankfully
21:30:20  <Xaroth|Work> skyem123: that's all relative tbqfh
21:30:26  <Rubidium> I wait 5-10 minutes at least each day for the development environment and mail client to start on the laptop of $BOSS
21:30:35  <Xaroth|Work> 50 eurocent per GB is doable
21:30:37  <Rubidium> that's 1 hour a week
21:30:44  <glx> access time is "constant" on SSD (compared to classic)
21:30:49  <Xaroth|Work> Rubidium: yikes
21:31:05  * Xaroth|Work is glad he got a SSD on work :|
21:31:11  <Xaroth|Work> s/on/at/
21:32:35  <planetmaker> rivers finally done...
21:33:14  <glx> 8bpp roads ?
21:33:20  <Rubidium> so... over 3 year life span of a laptop... 120 hours, times... minimum wage: 1000 EUR. But I cost the company a lot more than minimum wage, so roughly a months worth of salary
21:33:38  <planetmaker> yeah, 8bpp roads (and rails)
21:34:03  <planetmaker> haven't yet stolen them from zbase
21:34:04  <glx> no rails on the screenshot ;)
21:34:07  <planetmaker> well :P
21:34:10  <Rubidium> so if they spend 500 EUR more on the HDD, they save like five times as much
21:35:53  <Rubidium> good luck finding a reasonable SSD that is 500 EUR more expensive (reasonable as in 250-500 GiB)
21:36:17  <Xaroth|Work> you can get a 900GB SSD for 500 EUR
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21:40:21  <frosch123> hmm, my boss send the admin an mail to replace my hdd with a bigger one. the hdd is already available, but i am not confident it will happen this year :p
21:41:25  <planetmaker> that's a long lead time :)
21:42:21  <frosch123> well, i guess still not long enough for me to run out of topics to complain about :p
21:42:30  <Rubidium> frosch123: how many levels away from CEO is your boss?
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21:42:59  <frosch123> 2 to 3
21:43:29  <Rubidium> oh... easily ignorable ;)
21:43:39  <frosch123> it's not easy to tell whether the first level under the ceo exists
21:44:52  <Andreas> planetmaker, looks nice, although I find the slopes a bit hard to recognise/spot
21:45:02  <Rubidium> I doubt it will beat my "backup of the database" issue, though they might've fixed that a few days ago (haven't seen real proof though, so I expect it to not be fixed). That has issue at least reached CEO-1 level thrice and is almost 2 years old
21:45:22  <Rubidium> CEO-1 being CFO/COO/CTO
21:45:34  <planetmaker> easier to spot when zoomed-out, Andreas
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21:49:12  <Rubidium> but alas, I shouldn't rant about IT. They're way too busy lieing and covering for their lies than doing actual work
21:49:59  <Rubidium> on that note, frosch123: how sure are you the hdd is already available? Have you physically seen it being installed in the right machine?
21:50:07  <planetmaker> you don't exactly sound happy about that, Rubidium ;)
21:50:44  <planetmaker> Andreas,
21:51:20  <frosch123> Rubidium: it's lieing in the room of boss+2
21:51:36  <Rubidium> planetmaker: well, there's only one IT-ish guy I'd appreciate on sysadmin appreciation day (TB)
21:52:11  <planetmaker> :)
21:52:12  <Rubidium> frosch123: oh, that doesn't mean anything. They can easily give it to someone else and then the budget for HDDs is gone
21:52:13  <frosch123> planetmaker: see, the issue is, i am at a software dev company
21:52:25  <Xaroth|Work> Rubidium: IT-ish? :P
21:52:44  <frosch123> 2/3 of the admins have not learnt any admin stuff, but are just old devs who for some reason failed at deving and moved to admin
21:52:57  <planetmaker> he
21:53:08  <frosch123> i actually cannot complain about the 1/3 who actually know what they are doing
21:54:18  <frosch123> planetmaker: can you imagine how long it takes to install 50 notebooks?
21:54:34  <planetmaker> depends on how they differ
21:54:40  <frosch123> identical
21:54:43  * Rubidium can
21:55:02  <frosch123> though with hdd encryption
21:55:08  <planetmaker> then it should be easy. Dead easy. As long as one + 5 minutes + copy time for HDD
21:55:16  <frosch123> which is not identical ofc :p
21:55:55  <Rubidium> about time it takes for one + (amount - 1) * 5 minutes + time to stream disk over network (using ghost)
21:56:29  <frosch123> well, they installed one at a time, taking 1.5 days for each
21:56:42  <Rubidium> what OS?
21:56:45  <planetmaker> uh...
21:56:59  <frosch123> i mean, even if you cannot do the copy stuff, you should do 5 in parallel, instead of waiting for each installation to finish :p
21:57:03  <frosch123> Rubidium: win7
21:57:13  <TinoDidriksen> 1.5 days for
21:57:34  <frosch123> installing every product by hand, following a handwritten list of things to install
21:57:39  <Rubidium> so... configure unattended install, takes maybe 1 week. Then install them all over the weekend
21:58:08  <TinoDidriksen> Or just install one and ntfsclone it to every other machine.
21:58:08  <planetmaker> can the encryption be changed after install?
21:58:20  <frosch123> nope
21:58:34  <frosch123> encryption is boot time
21:59:23  * Rubidium hopes he can install the next $BOSS laptop mostly himself; let IT install Windows + Office + Antivirus, then I'll do the rest
21:59:31  <Andreas> @ planetmaker looks better indeed
22:00:24  <TinoDidriksen> You can install them all without encryption, then enable it after the fact to get individual encryption keys.
22:00:25  <Rubidium> I hate the huge load of mostly crapware that I'm not going to use for burning CDs or whatever
22:02:09  <planetmaker> TinoDidriksen, that's what I meant
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22:02:32  <planetmaker> would allow to simply clone the disks and then be done with it
22:02:55  <planetmaker> (and I'd keep one laptop as the master to update others from and test modifications)
22:03:41  <mek42> handwritten scripts, eh? sounds like punch cards would be an improvement ;)
22:05:16  <mek42> are there ever transport networks where an unprofitable line in the network increases the overall net profit of the network system?
22:06:22  <frosch123> that does not sound unusual at all
22:06:32  <Taede> transfers for one
22:06:34  <Wolf01> 'night
22:06:38  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
22:07:06  <Andreas> Well I know next to nothing about IT/admin work, but my dad used to be. Whenever they had to do installs they  just configured unattended install, small script for installing the needed other software from a network drive and be done in no time
22:07:08  <frosch123> either transfers with very differently fast vehicles
22:07:15  <frosch123> or iron ore vs. goods
22:07:24  <frosch123> you can make a loss on an iron ore line
22:07:39  <frosch123> but the steel and goods make so much more profit, that iron ore does not matter
22:08:59  <Andreas> indeed, aslo transfering passengers to train station/airport can tremendously increase profit even though the rv's will loose money
22:13:15  <Andreas> is there anybody here that would be willing to compile a winX86 binary of this: patch for me?
22:13:37  <Andreas> I could figure out how to do it myself but I have 0 experience with mercurial
22:13:49  <Andreas> and I am a bit lazy
22:13:50  <Andreas> :p
22:14:07  <glx> not a valid reason :)
22:14:40  <Andreas> I know it is not valid, but I can still try right? XD
22:14:56  <frosch123> Andreas: sorry, i am clipping my nails
22:15:04  <glx> of course, trying costs nothing
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22:27:31  <planetmaker> that's one of the weirdest excuses I heard so far, frosch123 ;)
22:27:53  <frosch123> yeah, that was kind of the idea :p
22:29:10  <frosch123> it's does not "cost nothing", it come at the expense of getting stupid answer
22:29:11  <Andreas> I kinda expected that
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22:31:59  <mek42> Andreas - maybe next time just ask, don't explain why :)
22:32:26  * Andreas will take that advice
22:32:44  <Andreas> doing it right now will not help though ( I guess)
22:32:49  <frosch123> mek42: generally, it is very unlikely to find anyone willing to compile anything for windows
22:33:43  <mek42> i didn't learn that this game even existed until browsing the OpenSUSE repos about a week ago
22:34:30  <frosch123> i guess most come here because of their childhood memories
22:34:50  <frosch123> but those people are getting older
22:34:59  <frosch123> maybe new kids become because of yogscast
22:35:09  <frosch123> s/be//
22:36:50  <mek42> i don't remember the sed to put a \' in front of "cause" to correct your correction in a cute way :)
22:38:46  <mek42> about two weeks ago i made my laptop into a dual boot machine, before this it has been about five years since i've run a linux box (boxes actually, i ran a modest three node beowulf for part of my masters work)
22:42:33  *** Hazzard [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:42:53  <planetmaker> frosch123, your sed would fail and catch the wrong 'be' ;)
22:43:07  <frosch123> mek42: unless you need full power for gaming you should start using virtual machines
22:43:24  <frosch123> planetmaker: yeah, you need the semantical plugin
22:43:38  <planetmaker> hÀ? :P
22:44:16  <frosch123> but you likely know already that i often get ahead of my typing
22:44:57  <mek42> frosch123: i do intend to, just haven't gotten around to it yet - i assume it is trivial to setup on a dual boot machine and that Linux is the better host OS?
22:45:01  <planetmaker> :)
22:45:02  <frosch123> skipping words, or like in this case taking the beginning of "because" and putting it in front of "become"
22:45:37  <planetmaker> ahead... reminds me of 'to bed' though. Where I feel I belong now :)
22:45:49  <planetmaker> good night :)
22:46:00  <frosch123> mek42: i guess linux is the better host because you can easier upgrade it
22:46:52  <frosch123> keep the host clean and simple and do all the mess in vms, which you can backup or drop and everything
22:46:58  <Andreas> gn8
22:47:14  <mek42> night
22:48:30  <mek42> i had been reading about python and parallel coding, then i found openttd in the repo one night ...
22:49:03  <frosch123> sounds related :p
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22:56:08  <mek42> lol
22:56:48  <Andreas> lol started watching the yogscast videos on openttd, that guys are quite funny
22:57:10  <mek42> meaning my reading progress has slowed dramitically after starting to ply this game
22:57:43  <LSky> reading progress?
22:57:46  <LSky> oh
22:57:48  <LSky> the coding bit
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22:58:15  <frosch123> Andreas: it might qualify as non-content
22:58:40  <Pikka> discontent?
22:59:20  <Andreas> that videos or my remark? or both?
23:00:23  <frosch123> Pikka: youtube videos are classified in three categories. those which are watched because of their content (legit content), those which have no content but are watched nevertheless (non-content), and those which are not watched at all
23:09:14  <Rubidium> damn... the defrag is slow... it hasn't reached 2% yet
23:09:28  <mek42> !password
23:09:28  *** mek42 was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
23:10:25  *** mek42 [] has joined #openttd
23:10:30  <mek42> oops
23:15:25  <Pikka> frosch123, I'm sure my videos fall somewhere between the last two.
23:17:51  <frosch123> hmm, so, do i now fix zbase?
23:18:07  <Pikka> fix it?
23:18:39  <frosch123> most recolour sprites are wrong
23:18:47  *** sla_ro|master [] has quit []
23:18:56  <frosch123> they use win palette indices when they should use dos
23:18:57  <luaduck> hey guys, is visual studio literally the only way to compile winx64 version of ottd?
23:19:42  <luaduck> having a problem compiling a patch using vstudio when a friend is having no issues with MinGW
23:20:26  <frosch123> what? why is there thunder outside?
23:20:41  <frosch123> it is cold... how can there be thunder?
23:21:01  <glx> there's mingw64 luaduck, but last time I tried it almost broke my mingw setup
23:21:21  <luaduck> I'm assuming official builds are done using vstudio
23:21:36  <glx> VS is the easier way for 64bit builds yes
23:21:48  <frosch123> oi, it is snowing
23:22:03  <glx> in winter ?
23:22:14  <glx> weird ;)
23:22:18  <luaduck> getting unresolved external symbol issues and not being a developer myself I have no idea at all what to look for
23:22:21  <mek42> frosch, which continent are you on?
23:22:25  <frosch123> i don't remember having ever experienced snowing with thunder
23:22:34  <frosch123> europe
23:22:50  <luaduck> we had thunder immediately followed by snow back in 06-07 iirc
23:22:50  <mek42> you've seriously never had a thunderblizzard?
23:22:52  <luaduck> (UK)
23:23:03  <frosch123> mek42: no
23:23:21  <mek42> frosch123: ok, i'll keep sending the cold air to you via the jet stream
23:23:27  <frosch123> thunder is something you have in summer or autumn
23:23:48  <glx> luaduck: patch added files ?
23:23:52  <frosch123> in winter you have howling wind
23:23:55  <frosch123> but no thunder
23:24:27  <luaduck> glx: I'll query you the patch
23:25:05  <glx> I guess you first tried to compile without patch
23:25:18  <luaduck> compiling without patch works absolutely fine
23:25:29  <mek42> i think snow thunder is higher voltage than rain lightning because the air has lower conductivity, thus a higher potential is needed; s/thunder/lightning/
23:25:36  <luaduck> and apparently compiling on mingw has no issues
23:25:42  <Rubidium> progress... defrag is 0.03% further than 15 minutes ago
23:25:54  <luaduck> but we're trying to get a x64 version for more memory
23:26:37  <Rubidium> at this staggering speed it'll only take about 5 weeks before it completes the defragmentation
23:26:52  <glx> luaduck: yeah the patch maker forgot to run projects/generate
23:27:17  <luaduck> mystery solved
23:27:42  <glx> any change in source.list require generation of project files
23:27:47  *** Midnightmyth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:27:53  <luaduck> so what's the best way to do it, copy the source to a nix box and run ./generate
23:28:04  <fjb> Moin
23:28:17  <luaduck> or can I just run generate.vps
23:28:19  <luaduck> vbs*
23:28:31  <glx> generate.vbs should work
23:28:36  <glx> (it does for me ;) )
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23:29:02  <frosch123> quak fjb
23:29:39  <fjb> Quak frosch123
23:29:47  <Rubidium> moi moi
23:29:51  <luaduck> I'll grab a fresh copy of 26275 and retry
23:30:02  <luaduck> if it works I'll award you with exactly 250 points
23:30:11  <glx> you can also "build" generate project in openttd solution
23:31:10  <luaduck> I'm getting an initial "following headers are missing in source.list and not in /src/ or vice versa on overlay.h
23:31:31  <luaduck> is that safe to ignore or is something going to catch fire
23:32:23  <frosch123> you may miss dependencies on rebuild
23:32:36  <frosch123> but if you compile only once, you may get away with it
23:32:42  <luaduck> cross your fingers
23:33:32  <glx> yes src/overlay.h is not in source.list
23:34:32  <glx> but missing .h in project files is less problematic than missing .cpp ;)
23:35:32  <glx> the rule is easy, add all new files to source.list then run generate
23:37:23  <glx> (though sometime the generate step is forgotten by non windows devs ;) )
23:37:46  <frosch123> there is a farm to remind us :)
23:38:25  <luaduck> I'm a junior sysadmin, and my worst enemy is already developers
23:38:33  <luaduck> well that's now generating code
23:38:37  <luaduck> so praise the lawd
23:38:45  <frosch123> luaduck: it also works the other way around
23:38:48  * luaduck electronically transfers 250 points to glx
23:38:51  <frosch123> we talked about that earlier :)
23:39:58  <glx> maybe generate should be added to the makefile
23:40:21  <glx> as source.list triggers a reconfigure IIRC
23:40:26  <frosch123> and squirrel wrapper generations and everything :p
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23:50:22  <Andreas> frosch123, you might consider that openttd videos from yogscast non-content, but you could also consider them examples of the trouble people run into when they start playing this game
23:51:02  <Andreas> they are quite experienced gamers, yet they suck and mess up in almost every possible way
23:51:28  <frosch123> no, they are non-content. noone watches them because of ottd. they are watched because of their interaction
23:51:41  <frosch123> it's like tb's and jesses terraria series
23:51:47  <frosch123> and i watched that completely
23:52:01  <frosch123> "non-content" is not a bad thing :p
23:52:07  <Andreas> it
23:52:12  <Andreas> *uhm
23:52:42  <Andreas> that's totally true, but still, it nicely illustrates why it is a hard game to get started at
23:52:45  <LordAro> poll: tabs or spaces?
23:53:08  <frosch123> Andreas: yes, but for that you better watch other ottd videos, not those from yc
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23:53:14  <glx> LordAro: where ?
23:53:33  <frosch123> LordAro: spaces are easier to understand for most people
23:53:42  <frosch123> and you can easier ban tabs entirely with precommit hooks
23:53:45  <LordAro> glx: c++ code
23:53:54  <LordAro> generally
23:54:42  <glx> tab (+ spaces for aligning if conditions)
23:55:52  <LordAro> woo, a tab supporter :)
23:56:48  <frosch123> i used to like tabs, but it is easier to use spaces than to get annoyed about people not understanding tabs :p
23:57:18  <frosch123> same as for putting * and & next to the var, or next to the type
23:58:57  <frosch123> LordAro: so, adjust for your audience :)

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