Log for #openttd on 27th January 2014:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:26:29  *** yorick [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:35:34  *** Randominty [~Randomint@] has joined #openttd
00:43:23  *** mek42 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:54:15  *** mek42 [] has joined #openttd
01:03:01  *** mek42 [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
01:15:15  *** mek42 [] has joined #openttd
01:40:34  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has quit [Quit: ~ AdiIRC Astro - ~]
01:43:36  *** MNIM [] has joined #openttd
02:15:21  *** Pikka [] has joined #openttd
02:26:12  *** jjavaholic [] has joined #openttd
02:43:31  *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
02:44:35  *** Djohaal [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:07:20  *** glx [] has quit [Quit: Bye]
03:16:12  *** mek42 [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
03:28:52  *** DDR [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:29:16  *** DDR [] has joined #openttd
03:44:37  *** Morgan_Freeman [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:51:13  *** Andreas [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:53:24  *** Morgan_Freeman [] has joined #openttd
04:11:55  *** Morgan_Freeman [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
04:26:21  *** fjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
04:37:44  <Pikka> planetmaker: did you implement custom tiles for railway junctions, or did I dream that?
04:52:43  *** Nothing4You [] has joined #openttd
05:21:14  *** Japa [~Japa@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:26:45  *** Japa [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
05:28:14  *** Japa [~Japa@] has quit []
05:29:02  *** Japa [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
05:30:07  *** Hazzard [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
05:56:01  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
05:56:16  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
06:04:16  <dihedral> good morning
06:30:41  *** retro|cz [] has joined #openttd
06:57:12  *** Pecio [] has joined #openttd
07:00:12  *** namad8 [] has joined #openttd
07:02:14  *** namad7 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
07:20:00  <planetmaker> moin
07:21:11  <planetmaker> Pikka, what do you mean with 'custom tiles'? I guess the answer is 'no', as nothing changed there really. Junctions still are composed by the underlay and the 6 possible overlay sprites
07:21:26  <Pikka> moin
07:22:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: try getting michi_cc to work on it :)
07:22:34  <Pikka> :P
07:23:50  <Pikka> okay, when I get to tracks, I will. and I'll make the sprites first. :)
07:30:29  <peter1138> i did a patch for it
07:33:13  <peter1138> heh, also a patch for 32 rail types
07:33:27  <Pikka> oh, it was you, peter :D
07:43:43  <Japa> I wonder how much performance loss there would be by adding support for checking surrounding tiles with terrain sprites
07:47:09  <peter1138> it's from r25057 though
07:47:19  <peter1138> Japa, try it
07:48:01  <Japa> Would need 9 bytes per tile to store the surrounding terrain data
07:48:19  <Japa> peter1138, I intend to, as soon as I get all the required stuff for compiling downloaded
07:49:05  <peter1138>
07:49:17  <peter1138> ^ never tested ;p
07:51:18  <Japa>
07:51:22  <Japa> Something like this.
08:00:31  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has joined #openttd
08:05:32  <planetmaker> Japa, you don't need to 'store' the surrounding tile data'. They're all there, on the map
08:05:40  <Japa> Yeah
08:05:41  <planetmaker> It only needs the usual action2 stuff
08:06:16  <Japa> it's just a question of doing it when rendering or not
08:07:37  <planetmaker> I'd got for tile type, for terrain type and maybe height. i.e. canals var. 80 and 81, maybe also 83
08:08:19  <Japa> brb, restarting windows
08:08:36  *** Japa [~Japa@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:08:40  <Eddi|zuHause> this is probably very inconsistent in openttd, as there are multiple different methods used
08:08:48  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. shore tiles and snow transition
08:09:01  <planetmaker> hm?
08:09:14  *** adf88 [] has joined #openttd
08:09:21  <Eddi|zuHause> those actually store their state in the map
08:09:40  <Eddi|zuHause> while houses etc. (can) use the adjacent tiles directly
08:10:39  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. the snow method has the problem that it doesn't work for rails or houses
08:14:20  *** Japa [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
08:18:53  <Japa> planetmaker, anyway, since I have really not at all looked much at the source code, I kinda need a bit to familiarize myself with where everything is
08:27:41  <Eddi|zuHause> Japa: it's all very complicated to map this method onto openttd, because you can't assume that you know all possible tiles. the NewGRFs may add more houses, railtypes, stations etc. or they can change the appearance of water, snow, ...
08:29:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the current method has some problematic restrictions, like you can't have snowy shores or snow-desert transitions
08:33:32  *** Supercheese [~Superchee@] has quit [Quit: Valete omnes]
08:36:33  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, the snow method can be externalized, by simply looking at the snowline. That probably would be a good step
08:36:53  <planetmaker> And later would also allow to retain fields, fences etc under snow
08:37:17  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: problem with snowline-based checks is that they change instantly, instead of gradually
08:38:27  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes I know that restriction. It's not impossible to retain, though. E.g. It could be changed gradually on a random pattern base or so
08:38:35  <planetmaker> having tile number as input
08:39:11  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: how would that help?
08:39:28  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you'd still have to store whether it uses the old or the new state
08:39:28  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, how is it done differently now?
08:40:03  <planetmaker> when snowline changes, the snowy state changes during tile loop
08:40:06  <Eddi|zuHause> current state is (for free tiles) => snowline changes => during tileloop the snow counter is changed
08:40:26  <Eddi|zuHause> for rail tiles, it only stores "no snow" or "snow"
08:40:57  <Eddi|zuHause> so during the tileloop, it will instantly change between none or full snow
08:41:04  <planetmaker> it's not like the current way snowyness changes is sacrosanct. It's not. Important is that it somewhat gradually recesses
08:42:09  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: so you need a pattern that is not too repetetive, and that is "monotonous" when it changes, and it doesn't change many pieces at the same time?
08:42:22  <planetmaker> the current pattern is exactly repetitive
08:42:42  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but if touching the code, might solve that while at it :)
08:43:12  <planetmaker> but that means there's not really anything to loose, if snowline is globalized
08:43:45  <planetmaker> and you win a bit on map array
08:44:43  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
08:45:54  <Eddi|zuHause> so you need a new array that has (number of height steps)x(number of stage changes (currently 16-ish)) entries, and some kind of pseudorandom access which of the entries of the stage the tile accesses
08:47:06  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has joined #openttd
08:47:07  <planetmaker> err, no?
08:47:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and some way to gradually change the stage between two changes of snowline height
08:48:03  <Eddi|zuHause> well you could make some round-robin-style storage that only focuses on a window around the snowline +-2
08:48:16  <planetmaker> you just need a function with input tile# which returns something(tile#) ? snowline_old : snowline_new
08:48:48  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: a table serves perfectly well as a function
08:49:11  <planetmaker> well, could
08:49:33  <planetmaker> stage changes is 16?
08:49:36  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and with this table it's easy to ensure that the changes are "small" and "monotonous"
08:49:53  *** Japa [~Japa@] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
08:49:56  <planetmaker> that adds another unknown into it
08:49:56  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: could be 256
08:50:07  <planetmaker> which currently is drivern by snowline height
08:50:19  <planetmaker> So small an monotonous should be governed there
08:50:33  <planetmaker> or you have two things stearing the same thing
08:50:37  <Eddi|zuHause> well let's assume 256
08:50:53  <Eddi|zuHause> then every tick, one of the entries could be reduced by 1
08:51:04  <Eddi|zuHause> (or increased, depending on which way the snowline changed)
08:51:23  <planetmaker> err...
08:51:34  <planetmaker> you don't want 256 snowyness states
08:51:39  <Eddi|zuHause> no
08:51:48  * LordAro mornings
08:51:50  <Eddi|zuHause> you probably misunderstand
08:52:06  <planetmaker> moin LordAro
08:52:13  <Eddi|zuHause> "256 stages" means "every tick 1 out of 256 tiles changes snowyness"
08:52:24  <Eddi|zuHause> which is what the tileloop currently does
08:54:53  <planetmaker> anyway, the whole point is: there's no need to keep the snowyness bit on the map. On the contrary
09:06:26  *** Andreas [] has joined #openttd
09:14:39  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has joined #openttd
09:17:20  <LSky> morning
09:27:20  *** Aristide [] has joined #openttd
09:33:38  *** Japa [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
09:40:04  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:41:20  <Japa> Eddi|zuHause, what I'm trying to do doesn't care about railtypes or houses
09:41:27  <Japa> just whatever's on clear ground
09:41:44  <Eddi|zuHause> Japa: the rails ARE on the clear ground (in the base set)
09:42:26  <Eddi|zuHause> (yes, the game is weird like that)
09:43:11  <planetmaker> yeah, the game is very weired and limited in that respect
09:43:31  <Japa> Yes, I know, but weather there's rails on it or not doesn't effect what I'm doing, which is making transitions between the various values of the ClearGround enum
09:44:49  <Japa> enum ClearGround {CLEAR_GRASS  = 0,CLEAR_ROUGH  = 1,CLEAR_ROCKS  = 2,CLEAR_FIELDS = 3,CLEAR_SNOW   = 4,CLEAR_DESERT = 5,};
09:44:55  <Japa> This stuff
09:45:07  <Japa> which is hardcoded, rather than being in the newgrf
09:45:38  <Eddi|zuHause> but that won't work already with the snow transition and the desert transition
09:45:48  <Eddi|zuHause> which is not part of this enum
09:46:34  <Eddi|zuHause> also: shores
09:46:48  <Japa> Shores are already taken care of, aren't they?
09:46:56  <Eddi|zuHause> and just because it's hardcoded now doesn't mean it will stay that way
09:47:08  <Japa> true
09:47:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Japa: only grass shores, not snow shores or desert shores
09:47:23  <Japa> Right
09:48:47  <Pikka> huzzah
09:48:49  <Pikka>
09:48:53  <Pikka> I have invented the cow
09:49:16  <Japa> Pikka, do you want cow reference images?
09:49:37  <Pikka> there's a joke here, I fear
09:50:16  <Pikka> it'll look like a cow when it's textured and 8 pixels long, don't worry :D
09:50:42  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
09:51:51  <Japa> Eddi|zuHause, that is true. Anyway, even if stuff is not hardcoded, all you'd need is to have each terrain type have a border priority, for what transitions go over what
10:00:03  <planetmaker> Japa, fields are not clear ground
10:00:13  <planetmaker> iirc
10:00:24  <Japa> They also can live with not having transitions
10:00:32  <peter1138> border priority
10:00:35  <Japa> since they would be expected not to be
10:00:42  <peter1138> so simple ;p
10:02:21  <planetmaker> Japa, I guess shores are a bit different as the transition there is on the tile itself from water to land
10:02:43  <planetmaker> though... peculiarities suck :P
10:02:50  <Japa> yup
10:08:34  *** wubic [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:20:07  *** Midnightmyth [] has joined #openttd
10:40:19  *** adf88 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:43:35  <Aristide> Hiii ! :)
10:43:51  <dihedral> i think the map should simply be vector graphics :-D
10:47:19  <V453000> 4D!!!
11:04:58  <Aristide> ^^
11:05:46  *** Devroush [] has joined #openttd
11:13:18  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
11:13:21  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
11:19:10  *** tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:29:50  *** Elukka [] has joined #openttd
11:29:50  *** DDR [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:34:10  <peter1138> directx11
11:36:03  <Xaroth|Work> dihedral: and store it using xml?
11:37:00  <peter1138> 3d openttd, do it
11:40:18  <V453000> or else
11:41:53  <__ln__> oculus vr
11:43:16  <__ln__> is there any trick to use the current graphics so that it gets an illusion of depth?
11:44:24  *** Randominty [~Randomint@] has quit []
11:46:41  <__ln__> i suppose drawing the windows at a different depth would be slightly easier, leaving the terrain flat.
11:54:48  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has joined #openttd
11:59:34  *** retro|cz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
12:07:43  <dihedral> pm: this guys speaks english just like you do :-D
12:09:06  *** wubic [] has joined #openttd
12:13:35  <Japa> __ln__, it's theoretically possible
12:14:22  <Aristide> Oyeah !
12:14:25  <Aristide> Lot of monney *o*
12:14:35  <Aristide> So, Its time to parse bus line list from Simutrans save ? :x
12:14:41  <Aristide> openttd sorry x)
12:17:10  *** yorick [] has joined #openttd
12:17:10  <LordAro> heathen.
12:17:17  <LordAro> :p
12:17:35  <planetmaker> more wood!
12:53:18  <dihedral> that is an odd request :-P
12:59:05  <Aristide>  More monney !
12:59:20  <Aristide> Can you add a feature for extract money from game to IRL
12:59:22  <Aristide> ? :D
12:59:48  <Xaroth|Work> if only
12:59:57  <Aristide> :3
13:00:16  <Aristide> I try to create a « only bus » network :x
13:00:48  *** retro|cz [] has joined #openttd
13:04:22  *** adf88 [] has joined #openttd
13:09:55  *** DDR [] has joined #openttd
13:11:00  *** Aristide [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:17:27  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
13:17:36  <andythenorth> bleargh layering more on more
13:18:01  *** tokai|mdlx [] has joined #openttd
13:18:13  <MNIM> dihedral: well, how else are you going to burn a heathen?
13:18:31  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what's your problem with that?
13:19:34  <andythenorth> genuine bloat
13:19:48  <andythenorth> the more crap we add, the harder it is to do anything interesting
13:19:55  <peter1138> rewrite
13:19:56  <peter1138> all of it
13:20:20  <peter1138> but start with something crazy like a graphics engine
13:20:21  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the biggest problem with this problem is that it's a zombieproblem. it keeps getting fixed in some patchpack and then reappears in the next patchpack because the fix was not backpoorted so the original patch is still broken
13:20:28  <andythenorth> also I disagree with all daylength stuff, but there's no useful conversation there :P
13:21:09  <andythenorth> peter1138: or just leave it be :)  Maybe fix some ui bugs.  Maybe it's kind of 'done' for the big stuff
13:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, just forget all the things people want... daylength, heightlevels, climates, destinations, ...
13:22:28  <andythenorth> I actually think that's the most interesting idea
13:22:38  <andythenorth> declare OpenTTD closed for big new features
13:22:41  <andythenorth> keep polishing
13:22:47  <Eddi|zuHause> i should have put a bigger irony marker
13:22:52  <andythenorth> see if some other group of people pop up with a reimplementation
13:23:27  <andythenorth> it's all kind of moot anyway :)
13:23:33  <peter1138> OpenOpenTTD?
13:23:52  <Xaroth|Work> andythenorth: weren't you fighting with multiprocessing for your sprites?
13:24:02  <andythenorth> Xaroth|Work: yes I was
13:24:04  <Xaroth|Work>
13:24:13  <Xaroth|Work> has a creative sollution
13:24:19  *** tokai|noir [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:24:35  <Xaroth|Work> allll the way to the bottom
13:28:45  <andythenorth> ho ho
13:29:06  <Xaroth|Work> ho ho as in , interesting, or useless?
13:29:07  <andythenorth> so that's almost exactly my case, the code in the last few examples is so close to my actual code...
13:29:42  <andythenorth> I'll have to try map
13:29:52  <Xaroth|Work> might be worth it
13:30:32  <andythenorth> the actual problem I have is that something in the error handling machinery crashes hard
13:30:54  <andythenorth> so errors cause the python process to lock up in a way I have never seen before :)
13:31:01  <Xaroth|Work> heh
13:31:04  <Japa> Bah, the ottd source is more complex than I feared. It will take quite a bit to get a feel for the drawing pipeline
13:31:17  <andythenorth> it's making me get good at debugging code with no error output :P
13:31:25  <andythenorth> source inspection
13:31:54  <Xaroth|Work> I hate those bugs that don't give pointers where something is wrong
13:32:53  <andythenorth> otoh, I wote about 30 flash games before I knew what a debugger was
13:33:10  <andythenorth> so I learnt to debug using judiciously inserted prints
13:34:43  * LordAro still finds that easier (in some cases)
13:35:48  * andythenorth tries to figure out why is better than pool.async() for this image processing case
13:36:17  <andythenorth> async probably isn't necessary, because this can block and wait
13:36:20  <andythenorth> but still...
13:37:40  <planetmaker> Japa, the drawing pipeline is indeed quite interesting :D
13:38:30  <planetmaker> Japa, I have a still not properly working patch queue for grids as transparency option. Maybe that gives you some hints...
13:38:44  <Japa> hehehe
13:38:55  <planetmaker> or a bit newer in (check for bookmark 'grid')
13:48:48  <andythenorth> Xaroth|Work: by switching to map() the job completes in about 6s instead of 14s :D
13:48:59  <andythenorth> dunno if the error handling is any better by avoiding async
13:49:11  <andythenorth> I need to try varying the number of workers in the pool as well
13:49:57  *** Morgan_Freeman [] has joined #openttd
13:52:10  <Andreas> grids as transparency option sounds nice
13:52:36  <Andreas> they are usefull sometimes, but also look ugly in some situations
13:52:40  <planetmaker> it's a pain with half tile foundations
13:58:14  <andythenorth> ha the method seems to handle errors better than apply_async()
13:59:19  *** Pecio [] has left #openttd []
14:10:01  *** Japa [~Japa@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
14:11:08  <MNIM> Hmmmh
14:11:41  <MNIM> planetmaker: is there a summary somewhere of FIRS economies? (1.3.0)
14:12:25  <planetmaker> did you try the documentation?
14:12:56  <planetmaker> honestly the main author would know better than me
14:13:04  *** Ristovski [~rafael@] has joined #openttd
14:14:06  <planetmaker>
14:14:11  <MNIM> oh, right. thought you were said author.
14:17:54  <andythenorth> he he
14:18:04  <andythenorth> I don't mind if the world thinks that :)
14:18:14  <andythenorth> means I don't have to do support o_O
14:18:26  <andythenorth> MNIM: in case you didn't find it
14:18:44  <MNIM> oh right, it was you
14:18:56  <MNIM> andythenorth: thanks, find it now.
14:19:05  <MNIM> planetmaker: thanks, too ^.^;
14:19:06  <andythenorth> planetmaker: the FIRS in-game content link goes to devzone, not docs
14:19:11  <andythenorth> I should change that, right?
14:19:15  <andythenorth> docs are the most useful thing?
14:19:29  <MNIM> seems like a good idea
14:20:32  <planetmaker> dunno. Might be, yes. Do the docs link to devzone?
14:23:23  <andythenorth> yes
14:23:45  <andythenorth> one reason I didn't link them was...I can't remember :P
14:23:54  <andythenorth> maybe bundles server was being rebuilt or such
14:23:59  <andythenorth> there was some reason anyway
14:24:10  <andythenorth> oh, maybe it was linking them to the correct version
14:24:51  <MNIM> planetmaker: might want to add an extra link to the docs in the FIRS forum thread, as well
14:25:11  <MNIM> I see now that it's in your sig as well, but that's a bit late. :P
14:26:28  <andythenorth> you might annoy him :)
14:26:39  <andythenorth> you should probably direct those requests at me :)
14:26:51  <planetmaker> well, with bundles server you need to know the path, andythenorth
14:26:56  <planetmaker> like the  release version. Or whatever is the nightlies
14:27:04  <MNIM> dear &*E*&$
14:27:08  <MNIM> I keep confusing you two
14:27:13  <MNIM> I have no idea why.
14:27:14  <planetmaker> or you just link to the general firs dir
14:27:20  <MNIM> it must be too early in the morning >.<
14:28:25  <planetmaker> <-- would give you the numeric part of the dirname for nightly builds / push builds
14:28:40  <andythenorth> MNIM: I added a docs link to top FIRS release thread
14:28:51  *** luaduck [] has joined #openttd
14:28:59  <planetmaker> strange, I never confused myself with andy :P
14:29:16  <andythenorth> ditto :)
14:29:51  *** luaduck_zzz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:30:00  <andythenorth> I'm just going to link to latest
14:30:04  <andythenorth> people should update :P
14:30:15  <planetmaker> that's fair enough
14:30:32  <planetmaker> but releases / nightlies differ there, still
14:30:55  <andythenorth> meh, I've already done it apparently
14:31:01  <andythenorth> I must have done it just around 1.3.0
14:31:06  <planetmaker> he :)
14:35:30  *** UukGoblin [] has joined #openttd
14:35:36  <UukGoblin> hello
14:35:54  <UukGoblin> I can't get the music under control
14:36:01  <UukGoblin> I'm using pulseaudio with a bluetooth speaker
14:36:21  <UukGoblin> and when I start OpenTTD it plays fine - both sounds and music goes out of that bluetooth speaker
14:36:43  <UukGoblin> however after the first iteration of music finishes, it starts playing it out the built-in soundcard :-O
14:37:27  <UukGoblin> initially, I have timidity as an app in pavucontrol and I can control which soundcard it goes out of
14:37:52  <andythenorth> oopsie
14:37:55  <UukGoblin> but after the first loop of music, timidity vanishes and it seems that midi playback is outside of pavucontrol's control :-)
14:37:58  * andythenorth crashed python again
14:39:39  <planetmaker> UukGoblin, what sound and music driver does openttd report? ./openttd --help gives info on available drivers)
14:40:17  <UukGoblin> planetmaker, music is 'extmidi' and 'null'; sound is 'sdl' and 'null'
14:40:35  <UukGoblin> using a debian package, version 1.3.3-1+b1
14:41:39  <planetmaker> hm
14:42:21  <planetmaker> and what OS is that exactly? Debian wheezy?
14:42:37  * andythenorth wishes nml was amenable to multiprocessing :P
14:42:41  <UukGoblin> it's sid, actually...
14:42:55  <UukGoblin> it started as wheezy though, I think
14:43:01  <planetmaker> right. With sid I also have issues with sound output. Totally unrelated to OpenTTD
14:43:28  <UukGoblin> ah, ok :-/
14:43:45  <UukGoblin> know of any workarounds, perhaps an env variable to force SDL to use pulseaudio?
14:43:46  <planetmaker> on wheezy that all works fine
14:43:59  <planetmaker> sorry, I didn't find a workaround
14:44:04  <UukGoblin> k, thanks
14:45:04  * andythenorth contemplates writing one grf per item, then decompiling, concetenating, and recompiling
14:45:07  <planetmaker> but I believe something outside OpenTTD must be broken there in the sound mixer / pulse audio or so
14:45:12  <UukGoblin> yeah
14:46:00  <planetmaker> andythenorth, care to teach NML some multi-processing rather? :)
14:46:18  <andythenorth> I would be quite lost tbh :)
14:46:20  <planetmaker> it's not monolithic code ;)
14:46:42  <planetmaker> you're not afraid to hack at everything else :P
14:46:43  <andythenorth> afaik, there is one big scan to find action 2 IDs that we can't avoid
14:47:27  <andythenorth> I would almost consider putting some of the work back on the author
14:47:50  <andythenorth> if we could scope as 'global' or 'local' we could bound all the action 2 IDs to the current item
14:48:02  <planetmaker> I don't think so. It goes through the action list and assignes numeric IDs to the items as it goes
14:48:12  <UukGoblin> so extmidi is just using pmidi, right?
14:48:19  <andythenorth> the tal (chameleon) spec has explicit globals, otherwise vars are bounded to current scope
14:48:58  <andythenorth> anyway, trying to fix it is fruitless without some profiling data :D
14:49:03  <planetmaker> as such NML can run into 'out of action2 IDs' as it processes things
14:50:10  <planetmaker> global and local definition could be forced / indicated by a 'global' keyword or so
14:50:40  <andythenorth> I am far too bad a programmer to know if that is a good route
14:50:50  <andythenorth> and it relies a lot on authors doing the right thing with knowledge
14:50:59  <andythenorth> which isn't good with a copy-paste code culture :D
14:52:38  <andythenorth> we need a profiling geek first? o_O
14:53:54  <UukGoblin> planetmaker, stopped system-wide timidity with /etc/init.d/timidity stop, then started timidity as the `goblin` user (the same user that runs the game and the pulseaudio session)
14:53:58  <UukGoblin> seems to have helped
14:54:21  <planetmaker> interesting
14:54:47  <UukGoblin> I think maybe the system-wide timidity, running as the `timidity` user, didn't have access to my user pulseaudio session
14:55:10  <UukGoblin> I don't know why it worked for the first loop of music though ;-)
14:57:23  <UukGoblin> hmm
14:57:58  <UukGoblin> no, changing the track from the jukebox didn't trigger the soundcard switch... now that it finished on its own, it switched to the wrong card again, so my fix didn't really work :-(
14:58:50  <UukGoblin> timidity is still running as my user, and no other timidity instance is running... I wonder what actually plays the midi now :-O
14:59:06  <V453000> you nerds should go play toyland, that would solve all of your issues
14:59:09  <UukGoblin> it keeps playing even after I killed it
15:00:11  *** DarkAce-Z [] has joined #openttd
15:01:01  *** Mucht [] has joined #openttd
15:01:22  <UukGoblin> hm, I have a process named 'extmidi' though... I wonder where the binary is :-)
15:01:36  *** LSky [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:02:13  <planetmaker> which extmidi :)
15:02:49  <UukGoblin> the /proc/PID/exe was symlinking to `timidity`, although in `ps axwu` it appeared as `extimidi` ;-)
15:03:30  *** LSky [] has joined #openttd
15:03:52  <UukGoblin> right, if I use `timidity somefile.mid`, it goes out the built-in soundcard, so I guess I need to configure timidity
15:04:09  *** DarkAceZ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:13:26  <andythenorth> hmm
15:13:27  <andythenorth>
15:13:39  <andythenorth> we could instrument up nml with profile module
15:13:40  <andythenorth> maybe
15:18:11  <UukGoblin> planetmaker, right, I've created a timidity-wrapper which calls `timidity -Os $*`, and now running openttd -m extmidi:cmd=/path/to/that/timidity-wrapper
15:18:17  <UukGoblin> seems to have fixed it permanently. :-)
15:18:34  *** adf88 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:21:08  *** retro|cz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:21:50  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
15:21:53  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
15:26:58  *** slee [] has joined #openttd
15:27:15  *** tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:28:11  *** adf88 [] has joined #openttd
15:28:12  <slee> hello, i'm new to openttd, i started my game with year 2025...i was able to buy 1 locomotive for a track, but i built a 2nd track and when i try to buy a new train, i nolonger see any locomotives...why is that?
15:31:45  <lugo> have you tried building mag-lev or mono-rail?
15:32:08  <slee> aaah, could the trains have upgraded to electric and i nolonger see diesel engines? i need to upgrade my tracks to electric?
15:35:08  <lugo> worth a try i guess. I normally play with NewGRFs so i don't know about vanilla engines too much..
15:36:23  <slee> thanks, i'll try upgrading tracks
15:40:36  <planetmaker> slee, in 2025 normal rail engines might not be available any longer. Use monorail or maglev
15:40:49  <planetmaker> (or enable 'vehicles never expire')
15:41:07  <slee> planetmaker, correect, i upgraded to electric, diesel had become obsolete, thanks
15:41:54  *** LSky [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:43:45  *** LSky [] has joined #openttd
15:47:14  *** LSky [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
15:48:48  *** Japa [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
15:48:56  *** LSky [] has joined #openttd
15:52:20  <slee> what is a good 'NewGRF' for vehicles?
15:54:10  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
15:54:11  <planetmaker> what do you want?
15:54:21  <planetmaker> what is 'good'?
15:54:27  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
15:54:33  <Flygon> And what sort?
15:54:34  *** Pikka [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
15:54:45  <slee> i'm guessing it's just new graphics for existing vehicles? or does it give you new vehicles?
15:55:00  <Flygon> It depends on the NewGRF
15:55:09  <planetmaker> FISH ship set, av8 aircraft, heqs vehicles, and then a normal vehicle and a normal train set
15:55:10  <Flygon> Some give new graphics, some add new things to the game
15:55:17  <slee> is there a link with a list of them i can view?
15:55:29  <planetmaker> and no, NewGRF is 'new game ressource file'. They usually change how stuff behaves
15:55:48  <Flygon> I've never actually used heqs... and I keep forgetting how to spell eGTVRS
15:56:09  <planetmaker> he, I neve rcan spell that either ;)
15:56:54  <Flygon> slee: The game has an internal NewGRF downloader
15:57:19  <Flygon> And a lot of downloadable content (not just NewGRFs) has a website link associated
15:57:29  <slee> Flygon, yes, i was just wondering if there was a resource page that listed them with details/images
15:57:54  <Flygon> That's what the associated website link usually shows off
15:58:02  <slee> thanks
15:59:00  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
15:59:45  <planetmaker> slee, there are some pages in the openttd wiki which list (some) NewGRFs with a brief description
15:59:49  *** andythenorth [] has quit []
15:59:56  <planetmaker> sorted by categories. Maybe that helps (too)
16:00:04  <slee> thanks, i found it
16:00:08  <planetmaker> but those lists tend to be rather incomplete usually
16:00:52  <planetmaker> slee, you can also go ingame, to the content downloader and use the text input box there to search for things
16:01:18  <planetmaker> e.g. 'train' and you'll get a list of NewGRFs which somehow deal with trains (have it in their name or description)
16:01:28  <slee> gotya
16:05:39  <slee> haha, this is cool, grabbed the egtvrs file, added horse/carriages
16:10:20  *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
16:10:38  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
16:17:04  <slee> ok, i've loaded eGRVTSv1.0, FISH, av8 Aviators and HEQS...bit i see in game 'trains' button is greyed out, what is a good(popular) train file?
16:18:27  <planetmaker> there's many, really many. Hence the question 'what is good? What do you want?'
16:18:47  <planetmaker> many cater for one country or region. The name gives it away
16:18:51  <slee> i'm guessing just a basic train that can do all the normal operations
16:18:59  <planetmaker> and then there's OpenGFX+Trains, NUTS, 2ccTrainset
16:19:05  <planetmaker> and other more niche sets
16:22:09  <Japa> I'm fond of NUTS, myself
16:22:26  <Japa> because it focuses more on game balance than recreating the engines of the world
16:29:24  <slee> ssomething else i've noticed on different maps, some have oil rigs out in the water, some don't, what determines if there are oil rigs on the map?
16:29:43  <planetmaker> time
16:29:48  <planetmaker> they can only appear after 1970
16:30:00  <slee> aah
16:30:08  <planetmaker> and possibly also climate. And of course industry NewGRFs
16:43:08  <Japa> Oh dear
16:43:23  <Japa> Visual studio has been "Getting things ready" for an hour so far
16:45:07  *** Aristide [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
16:46:19  <Aristide> o/
16:48:32  *** Aristide [~quassel@] has quit [Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.]
16:48:59  *** Aristide [~quassel@] has joined #openttd
16:49:13  <luaduck> Looking at doing some cross-platform OTTD patched builds, what does the team use for build automation? Jenkins crosses my mind
17:11:28  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
17:11:41  <Japa> Is there a better source for sprite numbers besides just reading through sprites.h?
17:11:53  <Japa> Or is that pretty much it
17:13:46  <planetmaker> opengfx source is also pretty good
17:13:53  <planetmaker> sometimes better :)
17:14:19  <planetmaker> sometimes worse :P
17:15:05  <planetmaker> maybe
17:15:32  <planetmaker> you're only interested really in the part which is prefixed ogfx1_base
17:15:38  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
17:15:38  *** andythenorth [] has quit []
17:17:08  <Japa> Then again, a very small amount of thought makes me realize I was thinking in the wrong direction anyway
17:18:06  <planetmaker> the extra NewGRF adds sprites after that. Those offsets are defined in sprites.h as you found
17:18:58  *** TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:19:17  <Japa> wondering what sprite ids to use for the border stuff, since there's 32 sprite per terrain type needed
17:19:27  *** TheMask96 [] has joined #openttd
17:19:43  <planetmaker> ehm... Japa, you cannot require 32bpp sprites
17:19:46  <planetmaker> only 8bpp
17:20:09  <planetmaker> which sprite (8bpp / 32bpp) and zoom level - that's totally different from sprite numbers
17:20:43  <planetmaker> what you can only do is draw several sprites on top of eachother
17:21:04  <Japa> hence me realizing I'm thinking in the wrong direction
17:21:08  <planetmaker> the 32bpp sprites have alpha. Thus can blend transparently in any ratio. 8bpp only knows transparent yes/no
17:21:35  <planetmaker> thus what you want is an overlay with the transition sprites as needed
17:21:42  <Japa> yes, that
17:21:55  <planetmaker> the transition sprite being same size as the tile. And allowing the sprite itself to define transparency as needed
17:22:27  <Japa> exactly what I was planning.
17:22:33  <planetmaker> :)
17:22:51  <Japa> it can still work fine with 8bpp, by the way
17:22:58  <planetmaker> quite so, yes
17:23:09  <planetmaker> it makes absolutely no difference with that project
17:23:09  <Japa> it's just less glaring an issue than with the extra zoom levels
17:23:21  <planetmaker> 8bpp has the same zoom levels...
17:23:29  <planetmaker> zoom is not bit depth dependent
17:23:49  <Japa> yes, but you don't usually see people making extra zoom levels for 8bpp :P
17:23:57  <Japa> usually
17:24:06  <planetmaker> yet. But you don't see 32bpp really either
17:24:10  <Japa> true
17:24:25  <planetmaker> Though I have the feeling that will change this year
17:24:50  <Japa> anyway, I have quite a bit of code study ahead of me until I can really do anything.
17:24:54  <planetmaker> long enough in trunk so that people start to actually use the new capabilities :)
17:25:12  <Japa> such as learning how newgrfs are loaded
17:25:17  <planetmaker> yeah... there's thorny code pieces ahead
17:25:29  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
17:25:36  <Japa> and figuring out how I want to specify the new sprites
17:25:47  <planetmaker> you don't exactly need to worry about newgrfs too much (yet)
17:25:53  <planetmaker> sprite definition is in my grid patch queue
17:26:09  <planetmaker> that's rather easy (though a bit lengthy)
17:26:17  <planetmaker> and needs patches to grfcodec and nml
17:27:00  <Japa> well, I'll need a way to specify the 32 new sprites per land type
17:27:41  <planetmaker> no, you don't need to worry about that
17:27:49  <planetmaker> you just need overlays.
17:28:06  <planetmaker> oh... 32 sprites? not 32bpp? yes
17:28:10  <planetmaker> a new action5 entry
17:28:45  <planetmaker> <-- patches 010 ... 030
17:29:01  <planetmaker> err... 060 actually
17:29:43  <Japa> there's a sprite for each combination of four edge borders
17:29:54  <Japa> and each combination of four corners
17:29:57  <planetmaker> yup. I read a bpp where there was none :)
17:30:03  <Japa> hehehe
17:30:14  <slee> iron ore mine has vanished, i'm guessing i depleted it, is there a setting to keep them from depleting...or possibly a grf?
17:30:39  <Japa> yeah, there's a setting
17:31:05  <planetmaker> quak
17:31:16  <frosch123> moin
17:31:53  <slee> quak/moin are grfs?
17:32:02  <SpComb> Mui.
17:32:28  <Japa> Anyway, gonna sleep on it
17:32:29  <planetmaker> hahaha :) That's good, slee. They're greetings :)
17:32:49  <slee> *shrug
17:34:52  <Taede> ello
17:35:41  <planetmaker> hola
17:36:25  <planetmaker> slee, there's manual industries grf. But you need a new map to make that work. Industries when not serviced well tend to close. That's usual behaviour in default game
17:36:36  <planetmaker> they don't close, if well serviced
17:38:10  <slee> k
17:39:01  <slee> so sending more vehicles to pick stuff up will help increase it's output?
17:39:14  <planetmaker> full load also helps
17:39:53  *** Hazzard [] has joined #openttd
17:42:19  <slee> ok, i have a train with 4 hoppers(coal), but they never get full
17:42:39  <slee> what do i need to do to help the mine produce faster?
17:42:41  <planetmaker> won't happen at an iron ore mine
17:43:12  <planetmaker> they need to be refit to the cargo you try to pickup
17:43:53  <slee> sorry, i have 4 coal cars going to a coal mine, but the mine output never increases to help fill them
17:44:33  <planetmaker> if the train is in the station which covers the mine with its pickup area, and the train is on full load, then it will eventually load
17:44:37  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
17:45:24  <slee> oh, set the train to sit there until it's full
17:46:46  *** andythenorth [] has quit []
17:47:44  *** oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
17:51:42  <slee> oh geeeez, i set a local authority to redo the roads, trying to get in good standings with the town, but now it's trashed the roads and my deliveries
17:52:35  <frosch123> :p
17:53:01  <frosch123> "road refunding" is something you should only do in your opponent's towns
17:53:30  <frosch123> if you want to make the town happy, you should plant trees on fields
17:53:40  <slee> cool
17:53:46  *** KenjiE20 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:53:49  <Ailure> haha
17:55:56  *** DarkAce-Z is now known as DarkAceZ
18:06:20  *** KenjiE20 [kenjie20@] has joined #openttd
18:06:54  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:07:14  <slee> there some type of like 'warehouse' where you can send it multiple products from different mines/etc and have your transport vehicles pick them up from a hub?
18:07:21  *** Ristovski [~rafael@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:09:21  <planetmaker> it's called station
18:09:54  <slee> right, but doesn't a station only work with the product it's next to?
18:10:06  <planetmaker> please read-up on different kind of orders you can give and how they work :) Especially transfer orders
18:11:20  <Andreas> slee, if you want to make them look nice you can use ISR grf or something similar :)
18:13:30  *** Supercheese [~Superchee@] has joined #openttd
18:14:07  *** Haube [] has joined #openttd
18:15:09  *** Elyon [] has joined #openttd
18:15:44  <Elyon> how does the trunk cardodist handle "transfer and leave empty" orders?
18:17:23  <Andreas> as fas as I have seen from my test games, same as unload and leave empty
18:17:54  <Andreas> in other words some cargo will still use it as destination in stead of only a transfer
18:18:25  <Andreas> but I might be wrong
18:18:28  <Elyon> ah, alright. I will keep cargo set to manual in my desert games, then :)
18:20:13  <Andreas> *noob question*  how can I clone a different revision than trunk with mercurial (or is it not possible?)
18:27:29  <planetmaker> you usually clone all revisions and update to the one you're interested in
18:28:10  <planetmaker> you can use hg clone -updaterev REV URL
18:28:24  <planetmaker> (see hg help clone)
18:29:00  *** greeter [~penguin@2600:e000:7:9d80:f921:fc34:118d:fa82] has joined #openttd
18:35:19  <Eddi|zuHause> <Japa> wondering what sprite ids to use for the border stuff, since there's 32 sprite per terrain type needed <-- generally you would add a new action5 type to the specs, and then add the sprites to openttd.grf and to opengfx_extra.grf
18:35:36  *** Aristide [~quassel@] has quit [Quit: - Discuter simplement. Partout.]
18:38:28  *** gelignite [] has joined #openttd
18:46:07  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26281 /trunk/src/lang (9 files) (2014-01-27 18:45:52 UTC)
18:46:08  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:09  <DorpsGek> croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
18:46:10  <DorpsGek> danish - 1 changes by Knogle
18:46:11  <DorpsGek> dutch - 1 changes by habell
18:46:12  <DorpsGek> german - 2 changes by planetmaker
18:46:13  <DorpsGek> italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
18:46:14  <DorpsGek> korean - 1 changes by telk5093
18:46:15  <DorpsGek> norwegian_bokmal - 1 changes by cuthbert
18:46:16  <DorpsGek> slovak - 1 changes by Milsa
18:46:17  <DorpsGek> spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
18:54:10  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
18:55:36  *** Japa__ [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
18:58:56  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:59:39  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
19:00:57  *** Japa [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:04:34  *** Japa__ [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:24:27  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
19:27:28  <andythenorth> if I just randomise buy costs, is that wrong? o_O
19:27:54  <frosch123> will anyone notice?
19:28:18  <andythenorth> oh we have people in the community who will notice
19:28:28  <andythenorth> guaranteed :)
19:28:31  <frosch123> make it depend on the year
19:28:46  <andythenorth> make it depend on the month
19:28:52  <andythenorth> discounts after christmas
19:29:02  <frosch123> i meant introyear only, but ok :p
19:29:10  <andythenorth> once a year sale
19:29:14  <frosch123> discount after christmas sounds legit
19:29:17  <andythenorth> if you can be bothered to wait
19:29:28  <andythenorth> are costs part of cb36?
19:29:30  * andythenorth looks
19:29:53  <andythenorth> oh they are :)
19:29:59  <frosch123> crap :p
19:30:00  <andythenorth> special price on April 1?
19:30:16  *** NCommander [~mcasadeva@] has joined #openttd
19:30:24  <NCommander> Afternoon all
19:30:27  <frosch123> free on feb 29 ?
19:30:30  <greeter> greetings NCommander
19:30:43  * NCommander is looking at diving back into OpenTTD
19:30:58  <NCommander> Been ages since the last time I fired it up :-)
19:31:16  <greeter> do it :-D
19:31:26  <andythenorth> also free on the player's birthday (put it in as a parameter)
19:31:50  <frosch123> discount codes via newgrf parameters?
19:32:33  <andythenorth> GS can't modify these vehicle properties? o_O
19:33:08  <frosch123> gs can send your vehicles to depot, and sell them
19:33:14  <frosch123> if they don't like them
19:33:44  <planetmaker> lol, frosch123! What an insane idea!
19:33:59  * NCommander still remembers one game where when upgrading my railroad from steam, I ended up preserving a bunch of older trains, and built a small hertiage branch where they still rain
19:34:01  <andythenorth> BackseatDriverGS
19:34:01  <planetmaker> (and actually a quite viable one. Nice for easter eggs - I'll keep that in mind)
19:34:01  <NCommander> *ran
19:34:13  <andythenorth> ChaosMonkeyGS
19:34:18  <andythenorth> SecondGuessGS
19:34:20  <andythenorth> AnnoyingGS
19:34:23  <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: Make everything free for one random day each year, then write an AI that abuses that fact.
19:34:30  <greeter> hmm sounds like it'd be interesting
19:34:42  <frosch123> planetmaker: "you are playing with your little brother" -  "sometimes the destroys stuff"
19:34:43  *** Morgan_Freeman [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:34:55  <planetmaker> :D
19:35:19  <planetmaker> the destroying stuff is for GS, though
19:35:20  * andythenorth considers a refurb / secondhand market
19:35:33  *** Morgan_Freeman [] has joined #openttd
19:35:42  <andythenorth> we really should make a ChaosMonkeyGS
19:35:47  <NCommander> Prof_Frink, reminds me of the AI that abused things like having vehicles going one way, then selling them, still making a profit and increasing efficenty
19:35:49  <frosch123> ToddlerGS
19:36:08  *** valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
19:36:14  <planetmaker> that AI still exists
19:36:23  <planetmaker> and it actually helped to fix a few real exploits
19:36:31  <andythenorth>
19:39:06  *** Der_Herr [] has joined #openttd
19:39:58  <Der_Herr> hi
19:40:20  <Der_Herr> i have a question concerning GameScript
19:41:15  <planetmaker> then you should simply ask it and hope someone knows
19:41:22  *** NCommander [~mcasadeva@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:41:29  *** NCommander [~mcasadeva@] has joined #openttd
19:41:31  <planetmaker> @topic get -3
19:41:31  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: English only
19:41:33  <planetmaker> hm
19:41:49  <Der_Herr> i think i noticed a shift in the company id by -1 (starting index now;: 0). if i remember right the previous starting index was 1. do i remember wrong or did it change?
19:41:59  * NCommander hits his internet
19:42:04  *** planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.4.0-beta3, 1.3.3 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | Don't ask to ask | for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
19:43:15  <planetmaker> companyID 0 was always the server itself
19:43:26  <planetmaker> afaik
19:43:45  <frosch123> don't mix companyid and clientid
19:43:53  <planetmaker> hm :)
19:44:15  <frosch123> but yes, company 0 is the first human player, sometimes called player 1
19:44:31  <frosch123> but well, what does it matter, they all have names
19:45:14  <Der_Herr> so companyid 0 is the right one for the first company?
19:45:23  <frosch123> yes, it should be 0 to 14
19:45:26  <andythenorth> hmm
19:45:37  <andythenorth> random costs might actually be good
19:45:44  <Der_Herr> hm k
19:45:53  <andythenorth> most sets have a few engines that are equally good, and this makes for fewer boring choices
19:46:09  <andythenorth> just choose the cheapest on current spot price
19:46:15  <andythenorth> next time it might be different
19:47:15  <frosch123> well, vehicles get their purchase price as worth
19:47:24  <frosch123> so, you cannot trade with vehicles :p
19:47:33  <frosch123> they do not gain worth
19:47:42  <andythenorth> I wonder how to implement it
19:47:58  <andythenorth> I could provide a high and low value, and then randomise 3 values in between
19:48:03  <frosch123> hmm, actually you might be able to sell an expensive vehicle and buy a cheaper new one
19:48:08  <andythenorth> or I could look at dates or such
19:48:24  <Andreas> well actually afiak few sets have trains that are 'equally good' usually 1 will have higher power or reliability
19:48:45  <Andreas> but if you play with breakdowns disabled (like most) they are equal :p
19:48:52  <andythenorth> yup
19:48:58  <frosch123> take the date in days, divide it by 13, xor some random number, and do modulo some prime number
19:49:01  <andythenorth> and varying power would be...interesting :)
19:49:28  <frosch123> nuts does some of these things
19:49:38  <frosch123> but you cannot change stuff depending on date
19:49:41  <frosch123> that desyncs
19:49:56  <frosch123> but you can do it like nuts and rerandomise on load/unload
19:50:35  <andythenorth> will it desync if only in the buy menu?
19:50:41  <andythenorth> running costs I don't really care
19:50:50  <andythenorth> running costs are mostly 'blah' anyway
19:51:08  <frosch123> randomizing power only in purchase menu?
19:51:15  <andythenorth> bit mean :)
19:51:16  <frosch123> you mean making it depend on build date
19:51:24  <frosch123> yes, build date is fine
19:51:35  <andythenorth> he
19:51:46  <frosch123> you just cannot randomly change stats while the vehicle is running
19:51:53  <andythenorth> nah, I don't want to do that
19:51:56  <andythenorth> this is purchase time only
19:52:03  <andythenorth> ho would I be able to have two different depot 'buy' windows open with different costs? o_O
19:52:28  <frosch123> making it depend on companyid would be mean :p
19:52:42  <andythenorth> might be amusing
19:52:44  <Andreas> lol, I think you have been infected by the chaos monkey
19:53:00  <andythenorth> 'you have invested in electric traction, your costs are now lower for electric engines'
19:53:01  <andythenorth> etc
19:53:25  <andythenorth> ha ha
19:53:34  <andythenorth> can I read any vars off the company or the HQ?
19:53:35  <Andreas> electric traction?
19:53:52  * andythenorth ponders a GS that offers investment choices, which modify vehicles
19:53:55  <frosch123> andythenorth: company id and company colours
19:54:12  <frosch123> red trains are cheaper :p
19:54:19  <andythenorth> I was looking for somewhere for GS to dump some vars I could read with newgrf
19:54:30  <Andreas> I like that goal gs that takes money from other companies if you achieve certain stuff
19:54:50  <andythenorth> frosch123: but red ships cost more...
19:55:06  <andythenorth> and blue trucks are cheap, but blue planes are frighteningly expensive
19:55:34  <andythenorth> this could be done by base costs without touching newgrf?
19:55:52  <andythenorth> without touching newgrf *vehicles* /s
19:55:54  <frosch123> planetmaker: you should do a rainbow gs which switches company colours 5 times per day
19:56:20  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
19:56:44  <planetmaker> :OOO
19:57:07  <planetmaker> frosch123, that's gs-nuts. That should tell you who should write it ;)
19:57:14  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
19:57:26  <andythenorth> CorporateRebrandingGS
19:57:50  <andythenorth> why is no-one writing funny GS?
19:57:52  <andythenorth> :P
19:58:42  <Wolf01> o/
19:58:53  <frosch123> aww, there are no api functions for the colours
19:58:57  <Andreas> andythenorth, may I conclude from this that you are actually bored with the game, and now want it to randomly annoy/enjoy you?
19:58:59  <frosch123> only for the president gender
19:59:21  <andythenorth> Andreas: I have been bored with the game since about 2008
19:59:25  <andythenorth> :)
19:59:51  <andythenorth> frosch123: I believe you have commit rights :P
20:00:03  <frosch123> for how long? :p
20:00:30  <andythenorth> depends how funny the results are
20:01:36  <Andreas> I think some people might have a different notion of 'funny"
20:02:41  *** Micchan [] has joined #openttd
20:03:41  *** Ristovski [~rafael@] has joined #openttd
20:03:41  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:05:25  *** TheMask96- [] has joined #openttd
20:07:08  *** TheMask96 [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
20:10:38  *** fjb [] has joined #openttd
20:19:46  *** Haube [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:22:33  *** oskari89 [] has quit []
20:38:13  *** fjb [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:42:48  *** FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
20:42:59  *** wubic [] has quit [Quit: /join #real-life | Leaving]
20:46:27  <FLHerne> Is there a straightforward way to check the orientation of a neighbouring NewObject (from another one) in NML? 'nearby_tile_object_type' will tell me what it is but not (IIUC) where.
20:46:50  <FLHerne> s/where/which angle it's at/
20:48:00  <FLHerne> I could do something hacky with animation frames (does that work?), but a more straightforward method would be nice
20:49:28  <planetmaker> happy hacking :)
20:50:07  <FLHerne> Or not - "Not sure whether this was answered, but "nearby_tile_animation_frame" cannot access animation frames of other objects"
20:50:34  <FLHerne> From the forum. Surely there must be some way to do it?
20:50:43  <planetmaker> no
20:50:53  <FLHerne> Different objects, but from the same grf and with known IDs
20:51:00  <planetmaker> if it needs to correlate, make it one object
20:51:22  <FLHerne> I don't actually need an animation frame, just the orientation/view
20:51:30  <planetmaker> otherwise you have quickly an endless loop: A: check tile B; B: check tile A
20:51:46  <planetmaker> so the internal state is not accessible
20:52:24  <FLHerne> Objects of the same type don't need to know about each other, and there are no two types that each need to know about the other
20:53:06  * FLHerne looks forward to having umpteen-million IDs then
20:53:06  <planetmaker> then A->B->C->A
20:53:16  <planetmaker> also a circle ;)
20:53:42  <FLHerne> Thinking about it, the circularity doesn't matter anyway
20:53:58  <planetmaker> FLHerne, but that's the reason it's not available
20:54:04  <planetmaker> it is possible
20:54:28  <planetmaker> and circularity would need detection and breaking. Rather a nightmare
20:54:29  <FLHerne> If I'm setting one property (graphics) based on a different thing (view) it can't make a circular dependency
20:54:34  *** APTX_ [~APTX@2001:470:1f0b:1a9d:2ff:ffff:fe00:1] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:55:26  <FLHerne> Is there any way an object could set its view based on another object's view such that a dependency could exist there?
20:55:27  <frosch123> FLHerne: i don't think you can access the anim state of other objects
20:56:15  <FLHerne> frosch123: I don't actually want the anim state, I want the view state.
20:56:18  <planetmaker> FLHerne, in principle access to the view would be much more unproblematic than animation state, yes
20:56:19  <frosch123> the fences stuff does it just depending on the id, not depending on the orientation
20:56:38  <FLHerne> I just thought about anim because view is more obviously not available
20:57:11  <frosch123> i feel like we discussed orientation before
20:57:44  <FLHerne> frosch123: I didn't, unless I picked up some amnesia sometime
20:58:44  <FLHerne> So...I can have 4x as many IDs, or glitchy extraneous fences, or glitchy lack of fences :-(
20:58:58  <FLHerne> At least 1.4 has more IDs to waste
20:59:28  <planetmaker> what do you try to do, FLHerne ?
20:59:34  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
21:00:35  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has joined #openttd
21:01:15  <FLHerne> planetmaker: I want fences between two objects if they're orientated in one way relative to each other, and not in a different case
21:01:28  <planetmaker> uh
21:01:44  <frosch123>  <- didn't get particular many responses
21:01:56  <FLHerne> Because there are multiple types of object with such relationships, making 2/3/n-tile objects for each case would get silly fast
21:02:40  <FLHerne> Ah, so I'm in good company with my demands :D
21:02:58  <frosch123> but hey, i remembered it :p
21:03:16  <frosch123> and i think the conclusion was to put it in the upper word, instead of the upper byte
21:03:20  <planetmaker> in principle var 0x63 of objects could return the view. Or a new variable
21:03:48  <planetmaker> sorry, 0x62 (nearby_tile_land_info)
21:04:37  <Der_Herr> i am still not convinced wether the first company has the id 0 or 1...
21:05:00  *** Japa__ [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
21:05:04  <planetmaker> switch to company mode, build a sign. And you know by the colour
21:07:05  <Der_Herr> and the color tells me what?
21:07:46  <frosch123> why does the company id matter?
21:08:01  <planetmaker> the colour tells you which company it is
21:08:02  <frosch123> in what context do you use it?
21:08:20  <frosch123> as in: scripts may very well count them differently than e.g. console commands like start/stop_ai
21:08:25  <frosch123> or the "move" command
21:08:45  <Der_Herr> in GS i get the id 0
21:08:57  <Der_Herr> but from admin console (i think) i get 1
21:09:00  <frosch123> human interfaces start with 1, programming interfaces start with 0
21:11:12  <FLHerne> Aside - If 'nearby_tile_animation_frame' really is only valid for tiles of the same object, shouldn't that be documented on the NML specs page? And does the same go for 'nearby_tile_random_bits'?
21:11:32  <frosch123> yes, and same for industries, stations and houses
21:11:47  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:11:48  <frosch123> and airports
21:11:52  <FLHerne> At the moment they're listed alongside and in the same format as 'nearby_tile_slope' et al, which obviously don't have that limitation
21:15:00  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
21:15:37  <frosch123> <- anyway, something like that?
21:15:57  <FLHerne> Is that a 'go edit the wiki' thing, or is it to increase traffic for the IRC channel and forums? :P
21:16:26  <frosch123> it is to lower the time distance to the next cake
21:21:28  * FLHerne doesn't understand the response
21:22:01  <FLHerne> Was that intended to convey some meaning? Or just cake?
21:22:07  <frosch123> 3719 to go
21:23:21  <planetmaker> <3 that patch, frosch123 . But shouldn't we rather use << 30 or so?
21:23:30  <planetmaker> to allow more objectIDs, if needed? :D
21:23:51  <frosch123> no, i rather allow more views
21:23:57  <frosch123> or drag distance
21:24:10  <frosch123> we need dragable objects
21:24:17  <planetmaker> ok
21:24:27  <FLHerne> Ah. Cakes at intervals of 10k revisions?
21:24:49  <planetmaker> well... we had this year another rev...
21:25:58  <FLHerne> I edited the wiki, could someone confirm if I got it right?
21:26:37  <planetmaker> yup
21:26:40  <FLHerne> Even if you go and make it wrong tomorrow, which would be nice :P
21:27:23  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
21:28:55  *** Der_Herr [] has quit [Quit: [ ] # Es ist nicht die Aufgabe eines Soldaten fÃŒr sein Vaterland zu sterben, es ist seine Aufgabe dafÃŒr zu sorgen, das der Feind fÃŒr seines ]
21:32:30  <frosch123> __ln__: can you please explain the usage of "das" and "dass" to Der_Herr, next time he joins
21:33:54  <planetmaker> haha :) I thought about the same
21:34:25  <planetmaker> fail at trying to look cool ;)
21:35:24  <__ln__> @seen Der_Herr
21:35:24  <DorpsGek> __ln__: Der_Herr was last seen in #openttd 26 minutes and 27 seconds ago: <Der_Herr> but from admin console (i think) i get 1
21:36:06  <__ln__> okay
21:37:32  *** Morgan_Freeman [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:38:32  *** Morgan_Freeman [] has joined #openttd
21:50:02  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
21:55:29  *** LeandroL [~leandro@] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
21:56:50  *** Japa__ [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:57:16  *** LeandroL [~leandro@] has joined #openttd
21:58:50  *** Morgan_Freeman [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
21:58:50  <planetmaker> good night
22:00:24  <UukGoblin> hm
22:00:59  <UukGoblin> when I have a 2-platform station next to an oil refinery, is it possible to force the goods trains to only occupy max 1 platform when loading?
22:01:06  <UukGoblin> leaving the other platform available for oil delivery?
22:01:39  <Taede> you'd either have to use a waypoint preceding the goods-platform, or split the station in to 2
22:01:39  <peter1138> if (!(foo == bar))
22:01:40  <peter1138> :S
22:01:46  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:01:52  *** Japa [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
22:01:58  <frosch123> peter1138: if (foo == true)
22:02:07  <Taede> usually its better to have a separate station for dropoff of resources and another for pickup of goods
22:02:13  <UukGoblin> Taede, ah, waypoint sounds interesting
22:02:37  *** xT2 is now known as ST2
22:02:40  <frosch123> you can also use a depot
22:02:57  <frosch123> let the goods trains run into a depot and make only one track from the depot to the station
22:03:08  <frosch123> while oil trains go directly to the station, and not to the depot
22:03:30  <UukGoblin> frosch123, ah, interesting too :-)
22:03:31  <frosch123> that way also waiting goods trains will not block the track
22:03:34  <UukGoblin> so many solutions. wow. :-)
22:04:28  <UukGoblin> ah yes, I forgot depots provide infinite space for carriages :-)
22:05:30  <frosch123> make sure to use the right signalling so trains only leave the depot when the platform is free
22:06:51  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has joined #openttd
22:07:01  <luaduck> any reason why my copy of openttd is trying to load a savegame that I don't believe exists?
22:07:11  <luaduck> it's overriding my config
22:08:27  <luaduck> -d 1 shows nothing of any use
22:10:08  <UukGoblin> got any tips on how to order trains around with such a setup?  OIL RIG ==== OIL RIG ==== REFINERY ==== REFINERY? :-)
22:10:30  <UukGoblin> I sort of told them to go rig1 -> refinery1 -> rig2 -> refinery2
22:10:50  <frosch123> night
22:10:54  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
22:11:03  <UukGoblin> one enhancement I can see is to try partial load at rig2 and skip going to rig1 if load is full
22:11:39  <luaduck> Broken savegame - Invalid chunk size, even though there is NOTHING in my commandline or config that points to anything suspicious
22:13:34  *** Japa [~Japa@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:14:57  *** luaduck is now known as luaduck_zzz
22:14:57  *** FLHerne [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:17:12  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
22:18:07  *** FLHerne [] has joined #openttd
22:27:54  <UukGoblin> ffs
22:28:04  <UukGoblin> rig1 now announced imminent closure :-(
22:28:10  <UukGoblin> after I built all the stuff
22:28:44  <UukGoblin> I mean oil well, not rig, actually. but still.
22:31:31  <FLHerne> UukGoblin: Always nice, that
22:32:31  *** Midnightmyth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:35:36  <luaduck> my dedicated server is ignoring build_on_slopes :(
22:36:01  <luaduck> infact it keeps setting it back when it saves the config
22:36:30  <FLHerne> luaduck: Are you trying to change the config file while it's running? I don't think that works
22:36:36  <luaduck> nope, I'm closing it
22:36:58  <luaduck> cleanly
22:38:35  <Xaroth|Work> perhaps the savegame has it set?
22:38:43  <luaduck> it's not loading a savegame
22:38:52  <luaduck> there aren't any savegames anywhere
22:38:59  <luaduck> there isn't even a ~/.openttd
22:39:19  <Xaroth|Work> it doesn't look -just- in there, there are other locations as well
22:39:49  *** Japa_ [~Japa@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:40:39  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
22:41:01  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
22:41:12  <luaduck> is there a list?
22:41:13  <UukGoblin> a conditional order skip based on trains present on platforms would be nice ;-)
22:42:14  *** andythenorth [] has left #openttd []
22:43:52  *** gelignite [] has quit [Quit:]
22:44:35  <FLHerne> luaduck: Yes, readme, section 4
22:44:57  <luaduck> none of those places have saves in
22:45:09  <luaduck> working dir, well it's a dedi so that's definitely no
22:45:17  <luaduck> personal, ~/.openttd doesn't exist
22:45:21  <luaduck> shared n/a
22:45:27  <luaduck> binary it's a dedi that isn't installed
22:45:36  <luaduck> same with install dir
22:46:26  <Andreas> UukGoblin, you could use an "escape depot":
22:46:59  <luaduck> I wish debug logging would say what save it's loading
22:47:54  <Andreas> and then just place it on the track the goods trains use (force them on that track with a waypoint or build a seperate station
22:48:57  <UukGoblin> hm, gotta learn more about these depots and waypoints
22:49:01  <UukGoblin> thanks :-)
22:51:24  <luaduck> is there a command to reload the config
22:52:07  <UukGoblin> why are there no bi-directional path signals?
22:52:27  <LSky> it works like one, I believe
22:52:31  <FLHerne> UukGoblin: Because the concep makes very limited sense?
22:52:33  <LSky> the one without the white panel
22:53:08  <FLHerne> UukGoblin: They'd have to be facing each other, and the only situation where you want that is long single tracks where you can easily spare the extra tile
22:54:00  <UukGoblin> FLHerne, ah. I'd have to think more about it I guess.
22:54:27  <UukGoblin> so far I've been trying to enforce one-way path signals and build double-tracks everywhere (for right-hand side train driving)
22:54:35  <UukGoblin> but now I'm thinking that's not very efficient
22:55:03  <UukGoblin> because trains could use the other lane in case of congestion due to breakage
22:55:23  <FLHerne> UukGoblin: Don't try that. It doesn't work, and makes everything worse :P
22:55:53  <UukGoblin> FLHerne, what, one-way tracks, or trying to re-use the oncoming lane? :-)
22:56:48  <FLHerne> UukGoblin: You either get trains weaving across for no reason (delays things) or breaking down while weaving (now *both* lanes are blocked)...
22:56:51  <FLHerne> UukGoblin: The latter
22:57:06  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has quit []
23:00:43  <UukGoblin> ok :-)
23:03:09  *** DarkAceZ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:07:40  <Wolf01> 'night
23:07:44  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
23:10:18  <luaduck> ok I need an adult / developer, I am really stumped by this
23:12:25  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
23:12:35  *** Elukka [] has quit []
23:14:03  <FLHerne> luaduck: Try sometime other than midnight ;-)
23:14:16  <luaduck> yeah I guess so
23:15:38  <Andreas> I've hade problems with ottd randomly overwrighting the config file aswell, unfortunately I cannot remember what I did wrong or what fixed it
23:30:01  *** Ristovski [~rafael@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:30:01  *** Micchan [] has quit [Quit: Going offline, see ya! ( -->]
23:39:47  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
23:42:00  <luaduck> anyone happen to know where openttd gets its default settings from?
23:42:07  *** Andreas [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:42:11  <luaduck> ie before it writes the config for the first time
23:44:10  <luaduck> found it, src/table/settings.ini
23:44:18  *** mek42 [] has joined #openttd
23:49:37  *** NCommander [~mcasadeva@] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
23:50:54  *** Andreas [] has joined #openttd
23:53:30  *** Midnightmyth [] has joined #openttd
23:55:17  *** Virtual [~Virtual@] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client:]

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk