Log for #openttd on 28th January 2014:
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00:14:43  <mek42> !24663
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01:12:19  <mek42> after ./configure, do i need to specify which makefile to use, or should there be one ready to go with just make (no options, no file)?
01:13:20  <mek42> also, should ./ return 1 after an svn checkout?
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07:48:15  <dihedral> good morning ladies
07:50:19  <Elyon> 'morning
07:51:12  <Pikka> doesn't it
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08:21:15  * LordAro mornings
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08:49:03  <Xaroth|Work> o/
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08:57:16  <dihedral> Xaroth|Work, o/ you too
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09:22:10  <LSky> morning
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10:27:52  <peter1138> grrr @ widget handles that are only 1 pixel wide :S
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11:19:08  <Pikka> darn those midget vandals
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11:48:19  <Pikka> speaking of midget vandals, hello andythenorth
11:49:07  <andythenorth> lo
11:52:36  <Pikka> what progress?
11:53:12  <V453000> hyhyhyhyhyhyhyhyhyhyhyhyhyhy m000 hello
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12:01:31  <bolli> Hi
12:02:19  <andythenorth> Pikka: tell me about costs, especially buy costs
12:02:36  <Pikka> for what, trains, planes, or sausages?
12:03:05  <andythenorth> yes
12:03:13  <andythenorth> cb36 can set buy costs
12:03:17  <bolli> Can I have some thoughts?
12:03:22  <andythenorth> I have been thinking about that
12:05:05  <Pikka> what have you thought?
12:06:50  <andythenorth> random buy cost, re-randomised monthly?
12:06:58  <andythenorth> from a low-high range
12:08:06  <andythenorth> dunno, might smell of wee
12:08:44  <Pikka> might do a bit. seems a bit complex and unintuitive. :)
12:09:07  <Pikka> what's the benefit? that one month one vehicle might be cheaper than another?
12:09:29  <planetmaker> nice, bolli. Anywhere where it's used? :)
12:09:30  <V453000> LOL
12:09:34  <V453000> wtf andythenorth
12:09:40  <V453000> kids give you drugs or? :D
12:09:59  <planetmaker> that's totally realistic!
12:10:01  <bolli> not yet, I've only just finished writing it planetmaker... :)
12:10:44  <planetmaker> randomizing buy costs certainly is not worse than randomizing power ;)
12:11:25  <andythenorth> Pikka: no real benefit, just different
12:11:40  <andythenorth> and means I don't have to think about balancing :P
12:11:44  <andythenorth> balancing bores the arse off me
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12:11:57  <andythenorth> then someone pops up and points out how you've got it wrong
12:12:36  <andythenorth> and then I was all like, yeah, whatever
12:13:52  <V453000> :D:D:D
12:14:01  <V453000> power is sane!
12:14:25  <V453000> andy, you dont "balance" things by cost, just give reasonable cost for everything ... usage matters
12:14:47  <V453000> e.g. power/speed/weight/tractive effort/capacity/loading speed/curve friendliness/other mechanisms
12:16:06  <Pikka> andythenorth: I suppose if you're working on IH, you need real stats, right?
12:16:07  <Pinkbeast> Reliability ho ho
12:16:28  <andythenorth> Pikka: real stats for our made up trains? o_O
12:16:40  <Pikka> oh, they're all made up? :D
12:16:56  <andythenorth> mostly
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12:17:10  <V453000> best approach :)
12:17:48  <Pikka> I'm pretty happy with the numbers my 10CC statter is producing, I could try doing some numbers for IH if you wanted.
12:18:33  <andythenorth> I would be happy with that :)
12:18:40  <andythenorth> otherwise I do the random thing
12:18:49  <andythenorth> or some formula of weight * hp, like FISH
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12:20:29  <Pikka> if you pm me a list of vehicles, with (approx?) intro dates and whether they're express locos or whatever,  I canl have a go at it.
12:20:35  <Pikka> *can
12:21:35  <Pinkbeast> Pikka: Please, did you ever get satisfactory 4-6-0 Castle graphics before UKRS2+ updates stopped?
12:22:21  <Pikka> not that I recall, Pinkbeast
12:22:38  <bolli> Anyway, must dash, bye
12:22:38  <Pinkbeast> Rats.
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12:24:39  <V453000> andythenorth: id say try something, I can help you figure out if the stats are different enough / that each train has at least some use
12:28:24  * andythenorth busies
12:33:20  <Pikka> andythenorth: or I suppose I could just send you the spreadsheet for 10cc, instead of being secretive about my secret formulas. :P
12:33:43  <Japa> What's 10cc anyway?
12:33:48  <Japa> How many colors do you need?
12:33:56  <V453000> :d
12:34:29  <Pikka> Japa: how many have you got?
12:34:41  <Japa> 2
12:35:09  <Pikka> o
12:35:22  <Pinkbeast> Japa: BR Brunswick Green and LMS Crimson Lake, that seems like 2 to me. :-)
12:35:33  <Pikka> I have 16.7 million
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12:38:18  <Flygon> I have 512. Because I'm hipster.
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12:38:34  <Flygon> 1536 addressable if you add Shadow/Highlight effects :B
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12:39:51  <V453000> how many is the palette for real men? 218?
12:41:11  <Flygon> What's 218 again?
12:41:13  <Flygon> It's familiar
12:41:19  <Flygon> But I'm not sure if that was Famicom or 2600
12:42:37  <V453000> ttd palette?
12:42:44  <Flygon> Not 2600
12:42:44  <Flygon> Oh
12:42:46  <Flygon> Right
12:42:48  <Flygon> DERP
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12:53:52  <MNIM> load testing junctions and station entrances.
12:53:53  <MNIM>
12:54:03  <MNIM> left junction definitely not a success.
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12:55:42  <V453000> 4-way junctions are always suicide MNIM
12:55:49  <V453000> unless you have really a loooooooot of experience
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12:56:27  * andythenorth hitting refresh :P
12:56:28  <MNIM> V453000: well, Im not exactly a newbie, but eh, I do indeed tend to stick to threeways, too
12:56:34  <andythenorth> come on build farm...
12:56:51  <Pikka> andy: when's the start date of IH?
12:56:59  <andythenorth> 1870, give or take
12:57:06  <andythenorth> here we go
12:57:09  <andythenorth> 1860 it seems
12:57:15  <andythenorth> the code knows better than me :P
12:57:18  <MNIM> but sometimes you cannot avoid a fourway, for example, in areas where aprox six or more lines are joining together
12:57:20  <Pikka> mm
12:57:21  <Eddi|zuHause> these junctions are definitely too small for these train lengths
12:57:29  <andythenorth> I should put a table sort javascript on that table :P
12:57:48  <MNIM> eddi: right one seems to be working well enough for it, but yes, left one definitely has issues in that regard.
12:58:07  <Pinkbeast> MNIM: short of "arrange to have been playing Simutrans" :-)
12:58:11  <V453000> MNIM: helpful articles
12:58:18  <V453000> also, you can always avoid 4ways :)
12:58:19  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: any n-way junction can be replaced by n+1 three-way junctions
12:58:20  <MNIM> Pinkbeast? 0.o
12:58:41  <MNIM> Eddi|zuHause: in how much space?
12:58:46  <Pinkbeast> Simutrans has a true underground layer so it's a lot easier to fit n 3-ways into the space
12:58:48  <Eddi|zuHause> loots
12:58:52  <Pikka> I'll have a go at 'em, andy. :D
12:58:59  <Eddi|zuHause> actually, n works too
13:00:28  <MNIM> Anyway, I prefer to work with compromises between capacity and space
13:00:31  <andythenorth> Pikka:
13:00:33  <andythenorth> ta
13:00:43  <andythenorth> you can probably copy the table to excel or something
13:00:50  <Pinkbeast> ... if you are made of money which one rarely is in Simutrans
13:00:59  <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: then you need better organic growing
13:01:29  <V453000> MNIM: btw those trains are GIGANTIC for that small map
13:01:39  <Eddi|zuHause> identifying bottlenecks and resolving them
13:01:41  <V453000> smaller trains fit in less space ;)
13:01:41  <MNIM> V453000: it's a testing bench
13:01:52  <andythenorth> smaller batch size = better flow
13:01:53  <MNIM> it's specifically made to overload the network :P
13:01:57  <V453000> testing benches are bad
13:02:03  <andythenorth> in theory one-piece-flow is the ideal batch size
13:02:06  <V453000> everything breaks sooner or later
13:02:10  <andythenorth> but theory is often beaten by engineering
13:02:11  <V453000> everything
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13:02:49  <andythenorth>
13:02:54  <MNIM> usually I work with five-long main traffic (town-to-town passengers) with the occasional seven and fourteen-long freighters
13:03:29  <V453000> 3-6 tiles is reasonable
13:03:29  <MNIM> so inundating it with fourteen-longs should work to make it work for worst-case scenarios
13:03:37  <Pinkbeast> I tend to find pax sneaks upwards towards 8 once the big Pacifics come in
13:03:44  <V453000> 5 is solid always
13:04:28  <andythenorth> one piece flow will also optimise for cashflow
13:04:30  <andythenorth> if you care
13:04:40  <andythenorth> delivering earlier = getting paid sooner
13:04:43  <Eddi|zuHause> my networks look completely different to those...
13:05:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and my local trains are 2-4, long-distance 5-8 and freight 6-12, usually
13:05:36  <Pinkbeast> Eddi|zuHause: What cargo weight multiplier for freight?
13:05:53  <andythenorth> I deliberately bundle massive trains onto the network
13:05:55  <Eddi|zuHause> 1, mostly, but it's usually irrelevant as passengers trump all
13:05:57  <andythenorth> because eh, why not
13:06:31  <andythenorth> Pikka: grf is here btw
13:06:42  <Pinkbeast> I have 3 but still find freight sneaks up towards 12 with beasts like the 9F, let alone the electrics
13:08:23  <LSky> question, is it possible to change the newgrf settings of an existing scenario?
13:08:39  <Eddi|zuHause> no.
13:08:56  <LSky> So its set at the moment you create the scenario?
13:09:26  <V453000> (:
13:09:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
13:10:15  <MNIM> I tend to use twin locs for my freighters
13:10:26  <LSky> is this no longer possible?
13:10:26  <LSky>
13:10:32  <Eddi|zuHause> you can, however, export the heightmap, start a new scenario, and place the towns etc. again
13:10:57  <V453000> that still works I hope LSky
13:10:58  <LSky> yeah, unfortunately the heightmap part took 4 minutes
13:11:05  <LSky> the town placement 15 hours
13:11:43  <Eddi|zuHause> well you should have thought of that before :)
13:12:14  <LSky> yeah, i made a wrong assumption, upside is that no newgrfs means its somewhat more accesible
13:12:31  * andythenorth adjusts stats on tin rocket
13:12:33  <MNIM> (note: eddi lies)
13:12:37  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, yes, that still works
13:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> but it is not recommended
13:12:54  <MNIM> that is true
13:13:03  <LSky> well, whats the worst that could happen?
13:13:09  <MNIM> crashes
13:13:12  <MNIM> crashes EVERYWHERE
13:13:27  <LSky> well, the good part about a crashing program is that you can start it again
13:13:34  <Eddi|zuHause> the least that could happen is you provide a scenario that nobody can play because it doesn't have vehicles
13:13:50  <FLHerne> LSky: And then it probably crashes again at the same point, but whatever :P
13:13:52  <LSky> right, well im planning to obviously save the scenario as is beforehand
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13:14:12  <andythenorth> one day there might be a new scenario format
13:14:22  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes "obvious" is not the same thing to two different people
13:14:35  <FLHerne> LSky: The problems start if you give the scenario to other people (or on Bananas) and then they get crashes
13:14:56  <FLHerne> LSky: Because they don't know, and then the devs get unfixable bug reports
13:15:06  <V453000> making scenarios is mostly waste of time anyway
13:15:10  <V453000> the generator does just fine
13:15:22  <LSky> the generator doesnt make Europe maps though :P
13:15:35  <V453000> not like that has any benefits
13:15:49  <LSky> enjoyment is no benefit?
13:16:04  <LSky> damn, ive been playing games for the wrong reasons :(
13:16:20  <andythenorth> scenario making is a craft in its own right, no?
13:16:23  <andythenorth> like making newgrfs
13:16:42  <V453000> you still fill it with fuking tracks andy :P
13:16:48  <Flygon_> Vehicle sets are like TV shows
13:16:55  <Flygon_> And scenarios are like movies
13:17:08  <andythenorth> V453000: I am favouring one track per train
13:17:12  <Flygon_> In that everyone agrees that a Futurama vehicle set would be pretty neat
13:17:29  <andythenorth> we should just ban signals
13:17:29  <Eddi|zuHause> you get totally addicted and want to know how it goes on, vs. you have two hours of fun and it doesn't amtter anymore?
13:17:34  <andythenorth> but allow stacking rail lines
13:17:49  *** Flygon_ is now known as Flygon
13:17:54  <LSky> well itll be a while before anyone fills this map with rails
13:18:09  <andythenorth> 'bridgeheads on tunnels'
13:18:34  <FLHerne> V453000: Beautiful scenarios are why some people don't take '8-track synchronous mainline' as a primary goal :P
13:18:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: i'm afraid "human-transporting pipes" is as useless a transport mode as "pipelines" wrt ingame management
13:19:01  <Flygon> But what about Spaceships?
13:19:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: just repainted airplanes
13:19:26  <V453000> I have no idae what synchronous is FLHerne but alright :D
13:19:27  <Flygon> And the Prism Train!!!!
13:19:39  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ho ho actually that's an idea
13:19:40  <Eddi|zuHause> and planes are the second worst transport mode in this game right after pipelines
13:19:43  <Flygon> Mid-movement decoupling MU operation!
13:19:54  <andythenorth> planes have an action 2 var for takeoff stage?
13:20:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: shunting is not implemented
13:20:11  <andythenorth> make them invisible after a certain point 'they're in hypersonic space flight'
13:20:14  <Pinkbeast> I actually wanted skilift-like arrangements as "continuous transport" pipelines for pax - uneconomic except straight up hills.
13:20:17  <Flygon> Who said anything about shunting?
13:20:26  <Flygon> I meant the train splits off into 6 different tracks
13:20:31  <Flygon> When it hits a junction
13:20:33  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
13:20:36  <andythenorth> yes, that's shunting
13:20:39  <Eddi|zuHause> "shunting"
13:20:41  <Flygon> While going 5843km/h
13:20:43  <Flygon> And never stopping
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13:20:44  <andythenorth> same mechanic
13:20:47  <Flygon> Just like in Futur-
13:20:49  <Flygon> Stop defying me D:
13:21:09  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: the point is "separating vehicles outside a depot" is not implemented
13:21:15  <LSky> the very least I take away from this scenario making process is that I definitely added to my topography/geography knowledge, I suddenly know about a bunch of cities that I never knew existed.
13:21:19  <Flygon> I know, I know
13:21:22  <Flygon> But, I'm a dreamer D:
13:21:47  <FLHerne> Flygon: Make multipart vehicles able to overtake, and you can probably manage it with HEQS roadtrains :P
13:21:49  <Flygon> LSky: What I get out of scenarios is baffling people in their native countries with routes I choose :D
13:21:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: also, we don't have a sewer layer
13:22:00  <Pinkbeast> Flygon: I'd love something like that for banking engines as in UK practice, but...
13:22:11  <Flygon> Pinkbeast: You and I both
13:22:23  * FLHerne wants pilot diesels for branches and yards
13:22:27  <Flygon> Banking stopped happening here after the 1950s though
13:22:34  <Pinkbeast> Oh, it went out with steam.
13:23:04  <FLHerne> Dragging a Cl20 along behind a 92 for 9/10s of the journey just for the last leg is silly
13:23:07  <andythenorth> herp
13:23:15  <Flygon> you get situations where interstate trains are a combination of modern 2013 4500hp Diesels... ...coupled together with a few 700hp T-class locos from 1952
13:23:26  <andythenorth> Pikka: oopsie, some of the trains are NG, some are standard gauge
13:23:32  <Pinkbeast> ... and when I have an infinite amount of time, motivation, and C++, I'd like real semaphore-era signal box operation
13:23:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: you forgot something: the factory is not destroyed by a fighter jet, but the Nimbus, and the roadvehicles are not hit by UFOs but eaten by nibbler :p
13:23:58  <Pikka> andy: doesn't really matter for the table, although I guess that explains why you have so many little locos in there. :P
13:24:18  <andythenorth> yes :)
13:24:44  <Flygon> Nibbler was part of a species
13:24:48  <Flygon> Just use a generic member!
13:25:21  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever
13:28:02  <Flygon> D:
13:34:40  <Pikka> you have a pm, andythenorth
13:38:23  <Eddi|zuHause> better than "you have an andythenorth, pm"
13:38:39  <Pikka> him too
13:39:16  <andythenorth> hello open office
13:39:33  <Pikka> I can a different format if you like :P
13:39:39  <LSky> still has a bunch of missing stuff, but its a start:
13:39:41  <andythenorth> I can an open office, it's ok
13:41:01  <Pikka> these formulae were arrived at by the "keep sticking in numbers til it looks right" method, in case you can't tell
13:41:36  <andythenorth> looks about right
13:41:42  <andythenorth> I'll stick it in
13:41:46  <andythenorth> ta
13:42:02  <andythenorth> I am not even going to try and balance it against other transport types :P
13:42:12  <Pikka> :P
13:42:34  <Pikka> well, since you mention it, I have one for RVs as well. but I haven't tried it in-game yet so I don't know if those numbers are right-ish.
13:42:59  <andythenorth> too many variables :P
13:44:20  <Pikka> oh, btw
13:44:22  <Eddi|zuHause> the game is not "balanced" at all. after a number of years the only thing limiting growth is space on the map and time you can invest into building
13:45:01  <Pikka> the numbers after buy and run are the base cost multipliers
13:45:07  <Pikka> and the 7 is supposed to be a 5, whoops.
13:45:18  <Pikka> no
13:45:22  <Pikka> it's supposed to be a 7
13:45:25  <Pikka> I'm confusing myself
13:45:27  <Pikka> don't mind me
13:45:36  <Pikka> it's right, it's 7. :)
13:46:51  <Elyon> short of overriding every default house, is there a neat way in a NewGRF to disable all regular houses and only use supplied ones?
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13:47:13  <Elyon> and on that note: is this the right place to ask? :)
13:47:51  <planetmaker> yes. and yes
13:48:03  <Elyon> :D
13:48:18  <Elyon> link or similar? I can't find it in the documentation for NML...
13:48:40  <planetmaker> forums would be another obvious place to ask as well. NML has the disable function
13:48:52  <planetmaker>
13:48:56  <Elyon> planetmaker: ah, I will look into disable immediately!
13:50:34  <Elyon> boy, am I glad I didn't start overriding everything, now. This is much neater, thanks ^-^
13:51:01  <Elyon> every step of the way it seems you developers are geniuses (genii?)
13:52:40  <planetmaker> until you find the rough edges ;)
13:53:13  <Elyon> nonsense
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14:19:24  <Japa> Thinking about it, I think I can leave slopes out of my tile border mod, for now.
14:20:07  <Japa> Already have 450 new sprites defined
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14:22:24  <planetmaker> :-O
14:23:03  <Japa_> Fifteen terrain types, 30 sprites each for borders, just for flat ground
14:23:34  <Pikka> that's a lot of sprites
14:24:16  <planetmaker> hm... plain, desert, rainforest, rough, stone. water(?)
14:24:48  <planetmaker> hm... snow 1/4,2/4,3/4 and 4/4?
14:26:09  <Japa_> On second thought, rough land isn't needed
14:26:14  * Japa_ slices those out
14:26:20  <planetmaker> it has a gameplay effect
14:26:30  <planetmaker> why is that not needed?
14:26:39  <Japa_> yes, but for borders, you can just use a grass border
14:27:02  <planetmaker> but isn't that the whole point...?
14:27:11  <planetmaker> same for stone
14:27:12  <Japa_> or whichever is the background for the rough land
14:27:28  <Japa_> I mean it doesn't need a separate border from grass
14:27:48  <planetmaker> then you only need grass<->desert. nothing else
14:27:52  <planetmaker> and grass<->snow
14:28:10  <Japa_> the levels of grass and snow, though
14:28:36  <planetmaker> you could make the borders of bare land grassy, too ;). Same argument
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14:29:10  <planetmaker> Japa_, if you do it, do it right. It's no problem to define 100% transparent sprites
14:29:24  <planetmaker> for default. And leave crazy stuff to people who enjoy creating sprites
14:29:34  <Japa_> true enough
14:30:23  <planetmaker> tbh, the default sprites could *all* be transparent
14:31:00  <planetmaker> gets you rid of the task of providing them. But opens all the options
14:31:04  <Japa_> Now I just have to add code for "If there's a sprite defined for rocky borders, use them, otherwise use grass borders
14:31:18  <planetmaker> hm?
14:31:30  <planetmaker> depends on the priority chain you defined, no?
14:31:36  <Japa_> Yeah
14:31:52  <planetmaker> Japa_, just assume that a sprite is always defined
14:31:56  <Japa_> okay
14:31:57  <planetmaker> 100% transparent is still a sprite
14:32:01  <Japa_> true
14:32:39  <Pikka> hm
14:33:26  <Japa_> anyway, now I'm back to grass 1/3, 2/3, 3/3, rough 0,1,2,3,4, rocky 1,2, water, snow 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4
14:33:47  <Japa_> water is only seen when it's not finished flooding the area
14:34:07  <planetmaker> rough 0,1,2,3,4? you mean the 4 variants?
14:34:29  <Japa_> yeah.
14:34:33  <planetmaker> I don't think you need to worry about the 4 roughtness levels. The 4 additional roughs only exist for flat and are not really a terrain type themselves
14:34:44  <Japa_> okay
14:35:39  <planetmaker> just my personal impression. other opinions might vary :)
14:35:51  <Japa_> that brings me down to 330
14:36:08  <Japa_> flats only
14:36:12  <planetmaker> :D
14:36:58  <Japa_> Unless I also condense the two rocky types into one
14:39:04  <planetmaker> two rocky types?!
14:39:12  <Japa_> that's my question too
14:39:19  <planetmaker> there's only one? where's there two?
14:39:19  <Japa_> when is the second one ever used?
14:39:37  <planetmaker> ah, you mean in the base set(s)? :)
14:39:52  <planetmaker> yeah, that's a nice quirk. Left-over from TT in the TTD base set
14:40:00  <planetmaker> never used in TTD nor OpenTTD
14:41:12  <Japa_> Right, getting rid of that
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14:47:26  <Japa_> Hmm...
14:48:10  <Japa_> Snow sort-of already has border stuff. But I may as well have support for snow eventually being not strictly height based
14:51:41  <planetmaker> desert also has border stuff. Desert transition is no terrain type
14:52:46  <Japa_> Yeah, it shares a sprite number with snow
14:53:12  <Japa_> Though the priority would be different
14:54:37  <Japa_> I think it should go snow->water->special->grass->desert->base
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15:57:48  <Japa_> Is there a named constant for the number of slope tiles?
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16:15:05  <Belugas> hello
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16:17:37  <Elyon> hiya ^-^
16:19:06  <Pikka> hello Belugas
16:19:10  <Pikka> long time no whale
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16:41:42  <Belugas> not too long ago ;)
16:41:46  <Belugas> but yeah
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16:42:16  <Belugas> i'm drowning under tusanmi of projects :(
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17:46:43  <slee> hello again, i've been looking threw the available grfs online, but still not sure what the best ones are for extra variety in the game, does anyone have a list(or webpage) listing the best grf setups? like addition industries, vehicles, etc
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17:50:04  <Ailure> You probably find that people have a varying opinion about that since favorite GRF's varies
17:50:12  <Ailure> especailly when it comes to trains
17:50:56  <slee> ok, industries
17:51:10  <Pinkbeast> FIRS is not a bad idea.
17:51:20  <Ailure> yup
17:51:55  <Ailure> FIRS is probably the most wellmade industry GRF
17:52:03  <Ailure> and for aircrafts I think you can't do wrong with AV8
17:52:31  <Pinkbeast> slee: I use UKRS2 / UKRS2+ for trains, AV8 for planes, FISH and Sailing Ships for er ships, EGRVTS and Generic Tram Set for RVs.
17:52:46  <Ailure> that's a pretty common setup
17:52:48  <Ailure> same as mine actually
17:52:50  <Pinkbeast> FIRS industries, CHIPS stations and some other station sets but there's no real limit on those.
17:53:00  <slee> cool, thanks...i tried the 2cc trainset, but for maglevs, there wasn't any cars for carring wood.etc, so i removed it
17:53:25  <Pinkbeast> slee: Most sets with any pretension to realism at all won't let you carry heavy cargo in maglevs.
17:53:44  <slee> gotya
17:53:51  <Pinkbeast> I add 2cc to UKRS but just to fill in a few gaps like post-war livestock; I never use a 2cc vehicle if UKRS can do it.
17:53:59  <slee> i'll try those y'all have suggested, thanks
17:54:20  <Pinkbeast> Another different alternative is NUTS, a deliberately whimsical train set oriented around game balance.
17:54:42  <Ailure> NUTS is very silly
17:54:49  <Pinkbeast> One of the nice things about UKRS2/Sailing Ships/EGRVTS games is you can start about 1820.
17:55:16  <Pinkbeast> Oh, and I forget what it's called, but Pikka's town set IIRC
17:55:32  <Ailure> Generally it's best to stick to one trainset though, you can mix but I don't really advise it unless you really really want a huge trainlist
17:55:47  <Ailure> especially since they tend to have diffrent ideas of balancing
17:56:01  <Pinkbeast> Hence the rule about only using 2cc where necessary.
17:56:19  <Pinkbeast> Oh, and Nutracks for 3rd rail / overhead electrification and linespeed limits
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17:59:28  <slee> hmm..i see a new industry (lumber yard), but i don't see the usual set of trees for harvesting
18:00:30  <Pinkbeast> I think it's only subtropical that harvests map trees; FIRS lumber yards are supplied by an ordinary industry. ICBW.
18:01:04  <Ailure> the FIRS industry chain is more complicated
18:02:19  <Pinkbeast> Ailure: Indeed, but I think the specific thing slee is thinking of is as mentioned; one default climate harvests the map trees that towns love so much.
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18:08:41  <slee> aaah, there it is, i tiny 'forest' for wood
18:10:08  <Eddi|zuHause> forests are easier to find on the map
18:10:20  <Eddi|zuHause> or through the industry chain window
18:10:28  <slee> sweet, 'FIRS' added a lot of new industry
18:10:45  <Pinkbeast> "supplies" are the gotcha.
18:11:58  <Eddi|zuHause> also a help with finding forests is the transparency menu (Ctrl+X)
18:12:37  <Eddi|zuHause> set trees to invisible but industries to opaque
18:12:51  <slee> ok, 'glass works' for shows 2 items waiting to be processed, it it require both in order to create output goods?
18:13:03  <slee> *does it require...
18:13:49  <Eddi|zuHause> are you sure you're using FIRS? sounds like ECS to me
18:14:01  <slee> i think i have both installed
18:14:06  <slee> remove ecs?
18:14:16  <Eddi|zuHause> use one, but not both
18:14:20  <slee> k
18:14:32  <Eddi|zuHause> and "installed" is something different to "activated"
18:14:38  <glx> glass works requiring sand and coal is ECS IIRC
18:14:54  <glx> or something like this
18:16:01  <Eddi|zuHause> i think ECS processes like 8 units at once, so you often have small leftovers that weren't processed
18:16:03  <Pinkbeast> FIRS industries accept multiple inputs; ECS requires multiple inputs. From slee's question, I'm not sure if they know which they've got.
18:17:09  <slee> ok, removed ecs, i still see multiple inputs for glass'm guessing i'tll require both items to produce output goods?
18:17:23  <Pinkbeast> slee: No, as I say, "FIRS industries accept multiple inputs".
18:17:32  <Pinkbeast> In contrast to "ECS requires..."
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18:18:06  <slee> got it
18:18:38  <Pinkbeast> But you get more output per unit of input if you deliver both inputs within a month (or you did last time I played)
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18:25:39  <Eddi|zuHause> slee: changing newgrfs only takes effect on new games, not savegames
18:26:36  <slee> right
18:28:04  <slee> currently trying to figure out how to get my ship to goto a fishing harbor after a sandbank
18:28:19  <slee> can't seem to click 'goto' on the fishing harbor
18:33:06  <planetmaker> fishing harbours are industries. you need to actually build a dock
18:35:56  <FLHerne_> That does lead to the odd situation where you send trains of fish across the map to deliver it to a harbour :P
18:36:02  *** FLHerne_ is now known as FLHerne
18:36:09  <planetmaker> lol :)
18:36:41  <planetmaker> tbh, that's what I actually did in one of my very first games I remember playing, still on Brianetta's server back in 2006
18:36:51  <slee> planetmaker, thanks, watching a youtube on FIRS now
18:39:13  <planetmaker> youtube on firs, eh?
18:39:18  * FLHerne would quite like to see the Stockyard generalised into a food-processing plant to take both fish and livestock
18:39:33  <planetmaker> did you tell andy? :P
18:39:42  <planetmaker> e.g. at the issue tracker? :)
18:39:48  <FLHerne> Maybe I should nag andythenorth again
18:40:02  <FLHerne> I think I have on IRC, but not on the tracker
18:40:35  <planetmaker> were it me, I'd either say yes or no. And forgot no-matter-what if it's not on my tracker :P
18:41:06  <planetmaker> anyway, got to go. bye
18:45:35  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26282 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2014-01-28 18:45:25 UTC)
18:45:36  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:37  <DorpsGek> belarusian - 1 changes by KorneySan
18:45:38  <DorpsGek> catalan - 1 changes by juanjo
18:45:39  <DorpsGek> finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
18:45:40  <DorpsGek> russian - 1 changes by KorneySan
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18:54:18  <slee> need a prison mod(grf) and have inmates make cheap goods
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18:56:39  <frosch123> better than one producing workers for mines
18:57:46  <slee> you could own the prison, rent out inmates to industries
18:58:05  <frosch123> two way transports do not work well
19:00:26  <MNIM> isn't that exactly how it works already?
19:00:40  <MNIM> no personnel ever goes in or out of the mines.
19:00:44  <MNIM> seems a bit silly to me
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19:03:15  <Pinkbeast> Simutrans industries have modest quantities of workers, good for trams.
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19:28:18  <lbalbalba> hi
19:28:25  <Alberth> hi
19:28:37  <lbalbalba> just for fun, i ran the llvm/clang static source code analyzer on openttd (svn trunk)
19:28:43  <lbalbalba> results can be found here:
19:30:01  <andythenorth> FLHerne: how would that work? o_O
19:30:16  <andythenorth> you land fish at a fishing harbour, then they are no longer fish, but foood.... :)
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19:30:57  <Alberth> hi hi Wolf01, andy
19:31:00  <andythenorth> I wouldn't rule out a food processor in some economy btw, I'm just curious why it's fun / gameplay useful
19:31:11  <Wolf01> o/
19:33:12  <Alberth> having good food while playing?
19:34:05  <andythenorth> :)
19:34:10  <andythenorth> moules frites
19:34:14  <andythenorth> there are no potatoes in FIRS
19:34:18  <andythenorth> that is clearly an oversight
19:35:40  <andythenorth> or is it potatos
19:35:43  * andythenorth never knows
19:37:33  <Alberth> I'd write it with an "e"
19:37:49  <Alberth> same trouble exists with cargo[e]s  :)
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19:41:45  * andythenorth has an idea
19:42:01  <andythenorth> some economy with fiendishly long cargo chains, and all the early legs are low paying
19:42:04  <andythenorth> hmm
19:42:11  <andythenorth> can I have a negative cargo payment? o_O
19:42:21  * andythenorth wonders if someone accidentally left signed bits in place
19:42:46  <andythenorth> hmm
19:42:56  <Alberth> I was wondering about a 1/2 production :)    for every 2 items, produce 1 output
19:43:14  <andythenorth> it was a formative moment, I was about 8, I discovered a monopoly game (BBC Basic) where the transactions were signed, but the AI players weren't
19:43:30  <andythenorth> "I would like to buy Mayfair for -£25,000"
19:43:39  <Alberth> haha :D
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19:44:03  <andythenorth> an early introduction to negative numbers
19:44:24  <Alberth> you had no trouble with the negative number concept at all :)
19:44:49  <andythenorth> 1/2 production is possible
19:44:59  <andythenorth> existing code could handle it, probably unchanged
19:45:11  <andythenorth> in fact I think that is the ratio for some industries
19:49:50  <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26283 /trunk/src/linkgraph (refresh.cpp refresh.h) (2014-01-28 19:49:43 UTC)
19:49:51  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5878]: Prevent infinite recursion also in RefreshLinks.
20:03:18  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26284 trunk/src/console.cpp (2014-01-28 20:03:12 UTC)
20:03:19  <DorpsGek> -Fix: Comparison of NULL and char 0. (lbalbalba)
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20:18:29  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Fishing harbours would act as now (Fish->food).
20:19:28  <FLHerne> They'd represent fresh/battered/whatever fish, whereas inland processing plants would be for canning, fishfingers etc
20:20:00  <andythenorth> ok, but why? :)
20:20:26  <FLHerne> Because you can't land all fish at Harbours, because the lakes are never the right shape
20:20:39  <andythenorth> this is a good point
20:20:52  <FLHerne> And landing fish at a dock, then trucking it across land to deliver it to another Harbour is silly
20:20:53  <andythenorth> I could show some very odd fishing harbours and fishing grounds
20:22:02  <FLHerne> I think most of your fish-industry generation troubles stem from OTTD's funny-lake generation :P
20:24:03  * FLHerne is clearly in some inane-comment mode this evening :-/
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21:43:35  * andythenorth -> bed
21:43:36  <andythenorth> bye
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22:22:35  <frosch123> night
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22:24:36  <slee> how do you clear the tracks of a horrendous trainwreck? bombs?
22:24:46  <SpComb> patience
22:24:55  <Pinkbeast> Time. It passes in time, and it won't pass any other way.
22:27:05  <__ln__> but time is money
22:27:44  <SpComb> money goes up with time
22:27:44  <slee> well, back to 'signal school' for me
22:27:55  <SpComb> time spent is money earned
22:28:29  <slee> having 3 trains go to a 2 station terminal doesn't work well
22:33:13  <SpComb> sure it does
22:35:13  <slee> not the way i had it setup(still learning)
22:36:28  <FLHerne> slee: Any number of trains per platform is fine, as long as none of them are occupying it simultaneously :P
22:36:57  <slee> i had it setup as one way in, same way out
22:37:30  <slee> looking at google/images of station layouts now
22:42:01  <slee> ugh, i'm stuck here in this winterstorm on the gulf coast, there are icicles hanging from the powelines outfront 2 foot long, i'm sure before the night is up powerlines are going to snap somewhere and send me back to the stone age
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23:31:20  <Wolf01> 'night all
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23:50:38  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
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23:58:24  *** DDR [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:58:26  <Hazzard> !playercount
23:58:27  *** Hazzard was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
23:58:37  *** Hazzard [] has joined #openttd

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