Log for #openttd on 30th January 2014:
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00:05:17  <lbalbalba> hrm. looks like something broke web browsing of the svn repo at : 502 Bad Gateway
00:07:40  <efess> Any admins here from
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07:38:10  <dihedral> good morning
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08:06:26  <LSky> this looks rather nice;
08:06:27  <LSky>
08:10:52  <planetmaker> moin
08:13:47  <planetmaker> yeah, someone actually doing something there :)
08:14:02  <Xaroth|Work> wait, people actually play OpenTTD?!?!?!?
08:14:06  <planetmaker> instead of only whining, then results suddenly look nice :D
08:14:06  <Xaroth|Work> impossibru
08:14:15  <planetmaker> Xaroth|Work, nah, playing the meta game
08:14:30  <Xaroth|Work> AH
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08:47:31  <Elyon> in NML, I have 8 spritelayouts that all share the same (circumstantial) extra building {} blocks. Is there any way for me to define these building blocks once, and then reference them instead?
08:52:23  <V453000> no clue about buildings :|
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09:04:43  <Elyon> ah, that's fine. copypasta for now works :/
09:08:22  <planetmaker> Elyon, can you paste the code as what you mean?
09:08:34  <planetmaker> you don't mean sprite templates, no?
09:11:21  <Elyon> I mean sprite layouts, indeed
09:11:30  <Elyon> I am already templating the heck out of these buildings :D
09:11:42  <Elyon> planetmaker: I will paste the code in a bit
09:12:32  <Elyon> any preferred pastesite, or is pastie alright?
09:14:47  <Elyon> planetmaker: the highlighted code is identical in all the related spritelayouts
09:27:26  <planetmaker> ah, that's one way to do it, yes. I probably would put the sprite selection logic into a switch which gives the sprite number as parameter to the layout
09:27:40  <planetmaker> let me find one example...
09:29:19  <planetmaker> hm... actually, no. You can have all four sprites concurrently, yes?
09:29:39  <planetmaker> then there's no way to nicely simplify that
09:29:59  <Elyon> I can have all four concurrently, yes
09:30:01  <Elyon> and alright
09:30:12  <Elyon> thanks for your time anyway :)
09:31:28  <planetmaker> even the offsets are all different, so... little leeway to cut on code there, too
09:32:36  <planetmaker> you can go on a templating spree using gcc macros. But I'm not really convinced that it will increase readability
09:32:48  <planetmaker> nor safe much time :)
09:32:52  <Elyon> probably not :)
09:33:30  <Elyon> this will have to do
09:33:35  <Elyon> it's only 16 buildings, tops
09:33:45  <planetmaker> :)
09:33:47  <Elyon> not like every single engine in NUTS or something :D
09:34:16  <planetmaker> hehe
09:34:31  <planetmaker> btw, did you try, does pushing to repo work?
09:35:59  <Elyon> oh, I haven't tried yet actually
09:36:10  <Elyon> I'd like to actually have it compiling before I push
09:36:35  <Elyon> plus I introduced a regression, so. But it probably works
09:36:44  <Elyon> I could clone through ssh with my passphrase and everything
09:37:41  <planetmaker> then push should work, too, I think
09:38:11  <planetmaker> I wonder ,should I add the build system as in the other projects, or do you have that there, already?
09:38:41  <planetmaker> I think I'll have in the weekend a go at getting compilation setup on DevZone's CF with these projects
09:39:12  <planetmaker> so that they actually get build on push - which they currently don't as sub repos don't fit the standard setup ;)
09:40:28  <Elyon> well, I have no idea about any of that, better ask Zephyris :)
09:40:46  <Elyon> I just compile locally, so far
09:40:59  <planetmaker> well, obviously you have the stuff in the repo, though?
09:41:05  <planetmaker> or not?
09:41:11  <planetmaker> if not, you should start using it
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09:41:59  <planetmaker> and as long as it's local, you can always us hg commit --amend :)
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09:42:33  <planetmaker> but the question is, do you have a Makefile etc like the other projects so that it compiles or should I add that to the project?
09:43:05  <Elyon> ah, --amend works for hg as well
09:43:13  <planetmaker> even if I should do that, it probably would be easier, if your current source would be available - easier to merge then
09:43:23  <Elyon> I don't have a Makefile but isn't it basically just have it call nmlc?
09:43:31  <planetmaker> basically yes
09:43:38  <Elyon> quite true, and I just fixed the regression
09:43:52  <planetmaker> usually it does first call gcc for preprocessing and then invokes nmlc on the preprocessed result
09:44:16  <planetmaker> thus if you use one single nml source file, I'd rename it for simplicity to pnml
09:44:19  <Elyon> let me commit (see if I can figure out these standardised identifiers for commits :), add a makefile, make sure /that/ makes, then commit again, and push :p
09:44:31  <Elyon> pnml = preprocessed nml?
09:44:40  <planetmaker> well... rather the contrary :D
09:44:47  <Elyon> preprocessablenml
09:44:52  <planetmaker> yeah :)
09:45:02  <planetmaker> but plain nml is also preprocessable
09:45:21  <Elyon> I see. So you want me to run the gcc C preprocessor through the (p)nml file, spit out an nml file, and run nmlc on that?
09:45:38  <Elyon> even though I use no preprocessor directives?
09:45:48  <Elyon> can do :)
09:46:01  <planetmaker> well... yes, no. Using the same makefile for all projects makes it MUCH easier for me to maintain it
09:46:21  <planetmaker> I guess, you don't worry, and I'll later add the usual makefile
09:46:33  <Elyon> okay, I will let you handle the makefile then. So all I have to do is rename the file to .pnml?
09:46:41  <planetmaker> (I use gcc mostly to allow using #include to nicely split code in sensible chunks
09:47:00  <planetmaker> well... I can do that in the same commit, no worries
09:47:12  <Elyon> okay then!
09:47:15  <planetmaker> but that's why I asked :)
09:47:26  <planetmaker> then I'll just setup that thing
09:47:37  <Elyon> awesome, thanks! Let me push first though?
09:47:47  <Elyon> (pull before push, etc., I know :D)
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09:48:26  <planetmaker> sure
09:48:42  <planetmaker> I'm not lightening fast in adjust the generic one to a project either :)
09:49:02  <Elyon> well I wouldn't be surprised if you were!
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09:51:05  <Elyon> okay, push'd
09:51:22  <Elyon> forgive the messy code, this /is/ my first newgrf :D
09:51:39  <Elyon> (well, technically this is Zephyris' newgrf, but it is the first I have collaborated on)
09:51:48  <planetmaker> no worries
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09:52:15  <planetmaker> also, if you code it, it's as much yours as Zephyris' NewGRF
09:52:40  <Elyon> I guess? Still Zephyris' project though :D
09:52:52  <planetmaker> he's mission commander here, yes :)
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10:18:00  <planetmaker> Elyon, do you have a *nix like system?=
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10:19:23  <marp> Hey is possible to swap carriages on a train via orders?
10:20:36  <planetmaker> nope
10:20:49  <planetmaker> you can refit carriages though, if they allow it
10:21:17  <marp> Hmm, that seems to be a glaring gap, have any patches attempted to do it?
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10:21:46  <planetmaker> You likely just want to carry another cargo?
10:22:04  <planetmaker> Then refit might be what you need
10:22:31  <marp> i want to pull ore hoppers on the way down, steel hoppers on the way up...
10:22:48  <planetmaker> not sure there are wagons which can be refit from ore to steel
10:23:09  <marp> Basically i want to automate manually going to a depot, swapping carriages over, leaving depot
10:23:24  <planetmaker> honestly, it would also be unrealistic: you'd pile up steel hopers at the ore yard and ore hoppers at the steel yard
10:23:43  <planetmaker> (yay, realism playing in my favour :D )
10:24:36  <planetmaker> having hoppers carry coal one way and ore the other - that's feasible with the right NewGRFs
10:24:58  <planetmaker> e.g OpenGFX+ Trains, but others probably, too
10:26:38  <planetmaker> default vehicles (sadly) allow no refit whatsoever
10:27:24  <marp> ah, that's why the refit option is there but greyed out
10:32:26  <planetmaker> In principle it's thinkable to implement a 'universal refit' in depots by NewGRFs, thus exactly what you suggest
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10:32:37  <planetmaker> I think no-one ever wrote a NewGRF though which implements it
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10:33:01  <planetmaker> would make it also a bit boring: you only ever need one wagon. And can exchange it all in the depot
10:33:30  <planetmaker> currently you need to think at least on the cargo class you want to transport
10:34:48  <V453000> you mean wagon with ALL_CARGO_CLASSES?
10:35:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i was considering something like that
10:35:17  <V453000> those exist already :P
10:35:54  <Eddi|zuHause> like "rollbock" for narrow gauge trains, which would simulate carrying any kind of wagon
10:36:03  <V453000> haha
10:38:53  <V453000> btw even DB set has ore-steel refit pm ;) I think NARS has them too
10:40:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but only for the slowest/smallest wagon generation
10:41:21  <V453000> wagon speed limits for the dumb .P
10:41:26  <V453000> marp:
10:41:52  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: dbset does not work without wagonspeedlimits
10:42:00  <V453000> it does?
10:42:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the wagons disappear and the replacement wagons don't appear
10:42:20  <V453000> the version in our grf pack does
10:42:27  <V453000> I think it is the 5/5/5 one
10:42:58  <V453000> also wtf is that, some counter-"wrong"-settings-mechanism? :D
10:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a classic case of "it's not a bug, it's a feature"
10:43:35  <V453000> but yeah those were just an example of "older" sets which do have such a wagon, nuts is obvious example :P
10:43:44  <V453000> so yeah fuck db set too :D
10:44:35  <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically you could go back to an openttd version before wagon lifetime was implemented :p
10:44:49  <Eddi|zuHause> or you could just enable vehicles never expire :p
10:45:12  <V453000> vehicles never expires has any influence on that? :D
10:45:18  <Eddi|zuHause> (which is also discouraged by the readme)
10:45:25  <V453000> LOL
10:45:43  <V453000> is that some new kind of wtf DB set? :D
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10:52:21  <Pikka> db set is ridiculous, design-wise
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10:52:38  <Pikka> "this train ran with five cars in real life, therefore you can only use it with five cars in TTD"
10:55:49  <Xaroth|Work> hehe
11:07:38  <planetmaker> Pikka, there are sets around which take these kind of things even much more seriously... (no, I don't wanna say names)
11:07:49  <planetmaker> but I find it sad, tbh
11:08:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i give you that, and raise you a "this train ran with only two cars IRL, but i only allow you to run it with exactly 3 cars"
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11:11:48  <Pikka> you should name names, planetmaker
11:17:26  <peter1138> pikka is named pikka
11:18:16  <peter1138> ukrs took things pretty seriously
11:18:48  <Virtual>
11:19:09  <Pikka> ukrs was terrible :D
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11:20:43  <Pikka> speaking of which
11:20:48  <Pikka> hello andy
11:21:42  <andythenorth> lo
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11:27:36  <andythenorth> also bye :)
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11:28:54  <peter1138> burp
11:29:24  * dihedral pats peter1138 on the back
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11:38:42  <Elyon> planetmaker: sorry, was away. Yes, I run ubuntu, why?
11:38:58  <peter1138> Poor soul
11:39:11  <Elyon> peter1138: tailored, mind you :)
11:39:23  <Elyon> I'm alright. Used to run arch but I can't be bothered with /anything/ OS related anymore
11:39:52  <Elyon> so it's just install ubuntu -> install vim -> install dwm -> done.
11:41:47  <Elyon> planetmaker: by the way, I presume I will need to add the actual spritesheets to a folder visible to the repo in question for the automagic compiling to be performed, instead of referencing a super-repo-thing?
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12:06:12  <planetmaker> Elyon, if you push and pull on the main repo level, then repos will be updated automagically
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12:54:00  <Elyon> "Don't ask to ask" is written twice in the topic. Coincidence? I think not!
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12:58:51  <Xaroth|Work> it is not
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13:01:19  <marp> Does a station's coverage area have to overlap all of an industry for maximum efficiency, or is one square overlapping enough?
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13:02:18  <Elyon> marp: one square overlapping should be enough
13:02:29  <Elyon> I could be wrong but I don't think I am?
13:02:59  <Xaroth|Work> You're not wrong
13:03:22  <Elyon> although, for some industries that have 1/8 passengers, you need to cover 8 tiles to actually /use/ those passengers, I think?
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13:05:51  <planetmaker> Elyon, I asked about OS as you now can simply call make and all will be fine
13:06:01  <planetmaker> using a makefile on windoze is more effort to get right
13:06:03  <Elyon> planetmaker: I did and it is! \o/
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13:06:58  <Elyon> planetmaker: Also, I have created a ./gfx/ folder in the repo and copied the sprite sheets there, let me know if I need to remove them again
13:07:08  *** planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.4.0-beta3, 1.3.3 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, 'Most recent' neither | English only | for dev-talk | #openttd.notice for commit notices
13:07:15  <planetmaker> uh, no!
13:07:16  <Elyon> :D
13:07:23  <Elyon> no to which one?
13:07:25  <planetmaker> don't copy the sprites
13:07:28  <Elyon> I won't, then
13:07:36  <planetmaker> use them from the graphics repo and use relative paths to there
13:08:06  <Elyon> but the relative path I set was "../graphics/Buildings/foobar.png", is that correct?
13:08:08  <V453000> pm see the other channel please (:
13:08:28  <planetmaker> yeah, looks correct
13:08:38  <planetmaker> didn't you mean a gfx path in houses dir?
13:10:09  <Elyon> planetmaker: yes, I am reverting that change now. You didn't reply so I went ahead, didn't think your build system was "clever" enough to split stuff into correct sub- and superfolders :D
13:12:42  <planetmaker> ehm...
13:14:34  <Elyon> or rather, I didn't know whether the directory structure on the central repos was the same as on my local machine, so - but all is well and fixed now
13:14:59  <planetmaker> please don't push a commit with gfx folder added...
13:15:07  <planetmaker> it's bloat :(
13:15:30  <planetmaker> adding a sub-folder gfx would make the whole sub-repo stuff obsolete. Would be much more trouble-free for me, yes
13:15:35  <Elyon> I agree, I will see if I can find my way around it. Probably just repull and copy the .pnml and .lng files
13:15:53  <Elyon> reclone, rather
13:16:07  <planetmaker> strip
13:16:15  <Elyon> strip? I will look into it
13:16:27  <Elyon> ergh
13:16:35  <planetmaker> maybe reclone is easier
13:16:42  <Elyon> 'strip everywhere in the country' was the first advertised result on google for 'hg strip'
13:16:45  <Elyon> haha
13:16:51  <Elyon> I'll look into both, see which one makes sense
13:17:21  <Elyon> means I will have to put all of my five (!) commits into one "Feature" though :p
13:18:11  <planetmaker> hm, no. you could also qimport the changesets
13:18:28  <planetmaker> or was it qexport?
13:18:54  <Elyon> no matter, I will just reclone, it's no big deal, everything committed was the same feature anyway
13:19:26  <planetmaker> anyway you can export changesets
13:19:45  <Elyon> I understand completely why you don't want bloat in your repo. I personally refrain from committing binary files myself, but I just made the wrong assumption based on the graphics repo that you usually put binaries in repos. My mistake
13:19:46  <planetmaker> or hg bundle them to import with hg unbundle
13:20:11  <planetmaker> Well, we have the graphics to only have them once, yes :)
13:20:31  <Elyon> yes, makes perfect sense. Your system is better structured than I first assumed :3
13:20:35  <planetmaker> tbh, this exact structure is something I wanted to try... sub-repos have rough edges
13:21:02  <Elyon> oh? How so?
13:22:42  <planetmaker> for instance that if you commit in houses sub-repo, the parent repo will not automagically update - thus you have to commit at parent repo level to keep everything at latest rev
13:23:10  <planetmaker> though the idea is: you can have a library sub-repo - and develop all other stuff with a given version of the library. And only update the library when you feel like making appropriate code changes
13:23:15  <Elyon> what are the pros and cons of this approach?
13:23:22  <Elyon> ah, *reads*
13:24:41  <Elyon> I should give that a try. I regularly write minilibraries for various things, and it would be nice to manage the library externally from the application
13:26:27  <Elyon> repo recloned, updated, and pushed. Not a trace of binaries in any commits yet :)
13:26:35  <Elyon> s/yet//
13:26:45  <planetmaker> :)
13:27:44  <Elyon> now to figure out how to tell the /highest/ corner of a nearby tile from a house ... *dives into documentation*
13:28:50  <Japa> Oh, I was just reading that part of the code, recently
13:33:13  <LSky> is serverside autosave regulated by the normal autosave variable in the config?
13:33:47  <planetmaker> yes
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14:22:03  <Elyon> planetmaker: oh, I could abuse `#include` in that case with the building blocks... Better not, though, as the code would be less readable (though more manageable?) - decisions, decisions
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14:23:40  <planetmaker> up to you :)
14:23:52  <planetmaker> I probably would have in the main file only #includes
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14:24:08  <planetmaker> add a header file, a sprite templates file. And then possibly one file per house
14:24:51  <Elyon> that is actually exactly what I am doing now
14:24:55  <planetmaker> e.g. look at how opengfx+industries looks like
14:24:58  <planetmaker> well :)
14:25:27  <Elyon> well, per house-type, that is. They share quite a lot of code as they're just graphical variants of 5 real-houses
14:25:45  <planetmaker> fair enough
14:26:21  <Elyon> thanks for that makefile with preprocessing :3
14:27:02  <planetmaker> no worries. It's standard :P
14:27:19  <planetmaker> probably 95% of the newgrfs on devzone have one variation of it ;)
14:27:53  <Elyon> ^-^
14:28:14  <planetmaker> (and I wrote it to make this easy: copy, adjust names and be done with it)
14:28:48  <planetmaker> ;)
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14:30:13  <planetmaker> and of course it's the Makefile I kinda can guarantee to work properly with build service
14:33:54  <Elyon> so this means this project will be autobuilt at some point?
14:34:47  <planetmaker> yes
14:35:12  <planetmaker> build-on-push, nightly build and release builds (tags)
14:35:25  <planetmaker> <-- like all these
14:36:06  <planetmaker> seems that I might even have a look at that tonight. The friend whom I wanted to meet called in sick
14:36:49  <planetmaker> Elyon, and I guess we can also enable translations, right?
14:37:04  <planetmaker>
14:37:32  <Elyon> oh, you'd have to ask Zephyris about that I think. I don't want to make any decisions about the project, only about the code :p
14:37:52  <planetmaker> I think we can make that decision :)
14:37:56  <Elyon> planetmaker: also that build setup sounds lush :D
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14:38:18  <Elyon> well, I can only do da_DK myself. And en_GB + en_US of course
14:38:36  <planetmaker> <-- the actual build service
14:39:00  <planetmaker> should I assign you da_DK translator? :)
14:39:07  <Elyon> for this project?
14:39:17  <planetmaker> generally
14:39:39  <Elyon> huh. Hmm. I guess? :D
14:39:47  <planetmaker> devzone has no Danish speaking translator yet :D
14:39:49  <Elyon> I hound the webtranslator for untranslated strings
14:39:56  <Elyon> well, it has now >:3
14:40:04  <planetmaker> indeed ;)
14:40:13  <planetmaker> you'll now have many projects in your list :P
14:40:40  <Elyon> I bet I will
14:40:50  <Elyon> so what, I just translate some strings when I feel like it?
14:40:54  <planetmaker> I'd leave en_US to native speakers. And en_GB is default... so I guess you commit that right away
14:40:59  <planetmaker> yeah, like that
14:41:09  <Elyon> and yeah, da_DK should be more than enough
14:41:12  <planetmaker> which and when you feel like
14:41:26  <Elyon> open sauce :3 etc.
14:41:27  <planetmaker> do you know openttd translation service?
14:41:32  <Elyon> I use it
14:41:33  <planetmaker> this works about the same
14:41:40  <Elyon> I translated like 150 strings the other day
14:41:43  <planetmaker> aye :)
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14:41:54  <Elyon> ah, good to hear. It's easy to use :D
14:42:01  <planetmaker> totally different programme, but similar to use
14:42:25  <planetmaker> eints commits automatically once a day its changes to repos (if  they allow)
14:42:31  <planetmaker> I allowed it :P
14:42:44  <planetmaker> for the mars projects
14:43:25  <planetmaker> this can be configured with the files in .devzone/translations
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14:44:30  <Elyon> okay, awesome
14:44:37  <planetmaker>
14:44:51  <planetmaker> (but I added all that along with Makefile in this case)
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14:45:35  <Elyon> I noticed!
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14:46:29  <Elyon> planetmaker: well, let me know when I can start translating the strings I added myself :p
14:46:48  <Elyon> also: /many/ pnml files now for the houses project
14:46:57  <planetmaker> can't you already?
14:47:23  <planetmaker> hm, seems not
14:47:50  <planetmaker> oh, yes, there it is actually
14:48:53  <Elyon> hoh woah lots of projects
14:49:01  <planetmaker> yeah :P
14:49:43  <Elyon> well, opengfx needs three strings.
14:49:43  <planetmaker> German translation done :D
14:49:49  <Elyon> for everything?
14:50:15  <planetmaker> yeah... well... 'needs'. It really only needs the one which is translated, but yeah :)
14:50:25  <planetmaker> No, for Mars Houses
14:50:41  <planetmaker> Not sure I'll ever manage to translate the 1k+ strings in the xussr set
14:51:03  <Elyon> oh dear, wow
14:51:13  <planetmaker> but that's why we have a web service. Easy for several to work on it
14:51:15  <Elyon> also awesome!
14:51:16  <Belugas> hello
14:51:19  <planetmaker> hi Belugas
14:51:20  <Elyon> hiya ^-^
14:53:06  <Belugas> sir maker!
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14:54:46  <Elyon> Danish translation done :p
14:54:58  <planetmaker> snowy over there, Mr Whale?
14:56:37  <LSky> Going by this ( ) is it currently not possible to run Autopilot on Windows using Active TCL + the convert.exe tool from GLX?
14:56:56  <planetmaker> LSky, it's tricky at least
14:57:06  <planetmaker> I know of no successful attempt
14:57:16  <planetmaker> LSky, I can recommend soap instead :)
14:57:20  <LSky> soap?
14:57:41  <planetmaker> soap :) the supybot plugin we replaced autopilot with for the coop servers
14:57:52  <planetmaker>
14:58:04  <LSky> Ah good, it has an IRC bridge
14:58:08  <planetmaker>
14:58:10  <LSky> thats mainly what I was looking for anyway
14:58:15  <planetmaker> of course. Or it would not be a replacement
14:58:23  <planetmaker> we manage servers 99% by IRC
14:58:49  <planetmaker> additionally it's capable to control not only one but several servers. And offers logging
14:59:25  <planetmaker> you can also run soap on a totally different machine than the server itself as it uses the admin port
15:00:16  <LSky> The OFS explanation mentions user@host
15:00:23  <LSky> what is meant by that?
15:00:56  <planetmaker> login + machine
15:01:10  <LSky> is that relevant to a desktop Windows run server?
15:01:31  <planetmaker> also a windows desktop can allow different users
15:01:56  <LSky> right, but assuming that this isnt the case, do I just put it in a folder that isnt somewhere crazily hidden?
15:02:02  <planetmaker> so if in your home dir is the server, it must not be in your brother's home dir
15:02:12  <planetmaker> I think so
15:04:23  <planetmaker> I haven't setup myself any instance of soap. So with detailed questions, best ask Ta ede when he's around
15:04:37  <LSky> ill just give it a go
15:04:56  <LSky> the readme seems quite detailed
15:05:14  <planetmaker> yeah, he does a good job there. I keep asking stupid questions. Bad memory and so on ;)
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15:44:47  <Elyon> planetmaker: is it possible to disable water? It ruins the martian feel :p
15:45:32  <Elyon> that wasn't actually aimed at you, but feel free to answer if you do know it :D
15:47:22  <planetmaker> no, you can't. Only at map creation level
15:47:31  <planetmaker> but not at NewGRF level
15:49:28  <peter1138> Just pretend that Mars had water...
15:49:40  <Elyon> we're playing in the future, not the past
15:50:01  <Elyon> :D
15:50:43  <planetmaker> Mars had and has water. Just not liquid on the surface... ;)
15:51:17  <planetmaker> Elyon, but then, water could be modelled as frozen-over water
15:51:24  <planetmaker> like on polar caps
15:52:24  <planetmaker> (even though most ice on the polar caps is CO2, but who cares?)
15:52:42  <planetmaker> 18µm annual precipitation simply is not much :P
15:56:33  <Elyon> planetmaker: you made ogfx-mars-landscape so far, yes? Would it be possible to have different water sprites for different climates? If so, it /could/ be dust lakes in the other three climates, but ... I don't know
15:56:48  <planetmaker> yes, that's easily feasible
15:57:12  <Elyon> I need an option called `Sea Level: Nope`
15:57:13  <planetmaker> could even be a simple parameter, independent of climate
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15:57:24  <planetmaker> you have an option: water%: 0
15:57:37  <Elyon> %?
15:57:42  <planetmaker> map configuration
15:57:52  <Elyon> with the options being `0` and `100`? :p
15:58:00  <planetmaker> 0,1,2,...100
15:58:01  <Elyon> err, s/`/'/
15:58:19  <Elyon> but how would 72% water look?
15:58:28  <planetmaker> island scenario. quite nice
15:58:40  <planetmaker> good for shipping games
15:58:44  <Elyon> oh, but this is not newgrf manageable, is it?
15:58:47  <planetmaker> no
15:59:03  <Elyon> we're talking patching openttd?
15:59:11  <planetmaker> no :)
15:59:17  * Elyon is thoroughly confused
15:59:21  <planetmaker> it's simply what the player can set on map creation
15:59:38  <Elyon> wait a s--
16:00:07  <Elyon> okay what.
16:00:11  <Elyon> I never noticed T_T
16:00:36  <Elyon> it only goes to 1% though
16:00:39  <planetmaker> I noticed :P
16:00:43  <Elyon> shush!
16:00:45  <Elyon> :D
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16:16:15  <Elyon> is there any reason /not/ to use pure white in sprites, bar the compiler warnings?
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16:31:38  <Aristide> O/
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16:42:43  <Pikka> Elyon: I believe pure white pixels don't fade when the "game ends", if OpenTTD still does that. Might also do funny things with the newspaper black & white, I don't recall.
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16:58:03  <Elyon> Pikka: interesting. I will avoid them, then.
16:58:20  <Elyon> thanks :)
16:59:17  <Pikka> ho ho, Admiral AI
16:59:36  <Terkhen> IIRC I did not manage to get the game to generate no water while coding the custom sea level option
16:59:40  <Terkhen> hello btw :)
16:59:53  <Pikka> it's built a loop with double-platform stations and 10 signal blocks. and 13 trains.
17:00:20  <Pikka> so at any given time, only one train is moving. it shuffles forward a block, then the one behind shuffles forward a block, and so on. :)
17:00:41  <Elyon> wondarfull
17:01:00  <Pikka> hello Terkhen
17:04:59  <Andreas> sounds like me when eating to much. have to wait till one bite has gone down a bit before I can take a new one :p
17:05:37  <Pinkbeast> In fairness to AdmiralAI I've done that once or twice :-/
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17:24:55  <planetmaker> Elyon, yes, there is. Pure white behaves differently with transparency / recolouring. Most important for vehicles
17:25:12  <planetmaker> i.e. white is not recoloured when they crash
17:25:31  <Pinkbeast> i.e. or e.g.?
17:25:37  <Elyon> planetmaker: oh, I see. Refraining from use unless very specifically needing the functionality of purewhiteness, then
17:26:36  <planetmaker> yeah. Its use Pikka actually described well: background of newspaper
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17:31:19  <planetmaker> Elyon, you might also join #openttdcoop.devzone :D
17:33:05  <frosch123> anyone understands FS#5887?
17:33:06  <Elyon> ah
17:34:07  <Pikka> no, nobody, frosch123
17:34:13  <planetmaker> frosch123, he wants to circumvent NewGRF's random
17:34:39  <planetmaker> I do not believe that it's even feasible as things work as designed
17:34:55  <frosch123> is there any randomness in isr?
17:35:20  <planetmaker> maybe with where a hut is placed or so or how the coal pile looks. Not entirely sure though
17:35:32  <planetmaker> But at least CHIPS does things like that, possibly ISR and DWE, too
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17:47:17  <Elyon> oh no, a spelling mistake in en_GB!
17:48:15  <frosch123> is __ln__ slacking off?
17:48:26  <planetmaker> probably :D
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18:16:53  <planetmaker> hm... my openttd hangs on exit
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18:18:32  <planetmaker> but seems my sdl is acting up...
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18:45:17  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26287 trunk/src/lang/lithuanian.txt (2014-01-30 18:45:10 UTC)
18:45:18  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:19  <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 1 changes by Stabilitronas
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18:50:37  <Elyon> okay I cannot find anything on this in the documentation, as it is 'out of the scope' of the articles that mention it. How do I just /get/, say, tileindex for tile 0x0800 in an AI?
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18:51:26  <Alberth> tile 0x0800 ?
18:51:29  <Elyon> well
18:51:29  <Alberth> hi Wolf01
18:51:31  <Elyon> any tile
18:51:36  <Elyon> just to get me started
18:52:29  <Elyon> I can't find anything that actually returns a TileIndex
18:52:36  <Elyon> unless it also takes a TileIndex as parameter
18:52:43  <Wolf01> hello o/
18:53:01  <frosch123> Elyon:
18:53:22  <Elyon> frosch123: why thank you, I completely missed that :$
18:53:50  <frosch123> yw :)
18:54:22  <Alberth> oh, frosch was quicker :)   hi hi
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20:21:20  <lbalbalba> hi
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20:21:30  <frosch123> hola
20:22:09  <V453000> hy unifrog
20:22:38  <lbalbalba> i really have a question for Alberth... but if hes not around perhaps others can enlighten me :P
20:22:54  <Alberth> I am not?
20:22:58  <lbalbalba> oh
20:23:00  <lbalbalba> ooopppsss
20:23:24  <lbalbalba> can i ask you a question about something you posted on the forums ?
20:23:39  <Alberth> try if you can do that?
20:23:56  <lbalbalba> ok here goes:
20:24:03  <lbalbalba> in this post :
20:24:04  <Alberth> ie, in general, don't ask whether you can ask questions :)
20:24:23  <lbalbalba> you mentioned that " step 1 and step 2 have the same variable, and the same end condition, so either both end conditions are false or they are both true. "
20:24:52  <lbalbalba> im woindering why someone whould check the same condition *twice* , instead of doing it all in the same check/loop
20:26:44  <Alberth> usually ease of coding; first do one thing entirely, then do the next thing entirely
20:26:45  <lbalbalba> why do 'check conditonfoo, do loop1, checkconditionfoo, do loop2
20:27:09  <lbalbalba> wehn you can do: check conditionfoo, doo loop1 loop2 loopx
20:27:24  <frosch123> because in thise case there is important stuff between loop1 and loop2
20:27:34  <Alberth> when loop1 affects the condition, both tests can be different
20:27:34  <frosch123> WriteHeader specifically
20:27:35  <lbalbalba> ah
20:29:39  <lbalbalba> guess that would be a hard case to reason about correctly for a program like a static code analyzer ;)
20:30:16  <frosch123> well, most of the false reports about bounds checks of dynamic arrays
20:30:20  <Alberth> luckily humans can still outsmart a compiler :)
20:31:11  <lbalbalba> yes, lets pray that the day never comes when compilers can outsmart a human ;P skynet here we come
20:31:37  <frosch123> well, your opinion will no longer matter then :p
20:31:46  <lbalbalba> lol
20:32:30  <lbalbalba> so most of the reports in there was false positives then ? bummer. i was led to believe that the llvm/clang analyzer was quite mature
20:33:01  <frosch123> well, it's more like rb recently used a different static analyser and eliminated most of issues
20:33:13  <Alberth> oh, I am sure it can find lots of stuff on average
20:33:28  <lbalbalba> oh its 'too little, too late' :(
20:33:34  <frosch123> so you are not running it on a virgin project, but one which is already prefiltered :)
20:33:42  <Rubidium> lbalbalba: even in coverity the (almost super) majority seems to be false positives
20:34:16  <Alberth> openttd code is being looked at, and refactored all the time
20:34:19  <lbalbalba> Rubidium: fsck coverity. thats a commercial project ;)
20:34:25  <frosch123> it is also not unusual than an report is correct, but the code is still intended as it :)
20:34:38  <frosch123> s/than/that
20:34:42  <lbalbalba> huh ?
20:34:44  <lbalbalba> oh
20:34:58  <Xaroth|Work> Coverity is quite nice tbh
20:34:59  <Rubidium> lots and lots of complains about accessing uninitialised memory, but not noticing that the allocator of the class already zeros the memory
20:35:30  <frosch123> at work we ran a code analyser on c (as in not c++) code
20:35:57  <frosch123> in that code it is very common to first zero-initialise a struct with memset before using it
20:36:25  <frosch123> but then the analyser complanis about not reading the value before the next assignment :p
20:36:47  <lbalbalba> hrm. sounds like i seriously need to convince people here to submit bug reports to llvm/clang so it gets better :)
20:37:00  <frosch123> funnily in c++ that does not happen, because the analyser does not consider assignment after ctor-construction a re-assignment
20:37:15  <Rubidium> the alloca thing seems bogus too
20:37:49  <frosch123> lbalbalba: you just cannot  expect that there are zero false positives
20:38:14  <lbalbalba> oh i dont expect that
20:38:22  <Xaroth|Work> Perfect code is unwritten code :)
20:38:35  <lbalbalba> but i do expect there to be actual bugs oncovered
20:38:48  <lbalbalba> preferably more bugs than fals epositives
20:38:52  <frosch123> well, you did :p
20:39:05  <frosch123> the clang compile warning was one
20:39:33  <frosch123> it's listed under "analyser failures" :)
20:39:49  <lbalbalba> thats were the checker crashed :(
20:40:16  <frosch123> yeah, but that code was wrong. so the analyser failed where it had the chance to shine :p
20:40:19  <lbalbalba> oh, and i didnt really mean to bash coverity. its done lots of good work on scanning open source projects. i just want open source to be better at it
20:40:42  <lbalbalba> :)
20:41:24  <Rubidium> lbalbalba: but clang is better; it has fewer false positives than coverity
20:41:42  <lbalbalba> whhooopee !
20:41:48  <lbalbalba> lol
20:42:06  <frosch123> for that you also have to compare the quantity of valid positives :p
20:42:22  <frosch123> i can easily write an analyser with zero false positives :p
20:42:28  <lbalbalba> me too !
20:42:31  <lbalbalba> lol
20:43:43  <Rubidium> coverity: 417 defects, 146 fixes, 271 false positive
20:44:25  <lbalbalba> im sur ethis analyzer finds zero false positives:   int main() { while(1) {} };
20:44:28  <frosch123> so, run clang on trunk before those 146 were fixed
20:45:04  <lbalbalba> still, 146 real bugs so far
20:45:29  <lbalbalba> sounds way better than manualy analyzing/readin/reasoning 1000000 lines of code
20:45:40  <planetmaker> only 300k+ ;)
20:45:53  <planetmaker> and... not sure it would have been done manually tbh
20:46:06  <planetmaker> not this systematically
20:47:04  <lbalbalba> of course humans would not do that. let the robots do what they do best: repetitive montonmous actions
20:47:09  <planetmaker> ^^
20:47:28  <lbalbalba> 'montonmous' is that evevn a valid english word ?
20:47:41  <Rubidium> I think is the first one of the 'fixes'
20:47:42  <Taede> monotonous
20:47:52  <lbalbalba> ah., thank you
20:47:56  <Taede> i think
20:48:26  <Rubidium> and as you can see, the 'fixes' aren't really significant at best; it's just dumping info on the console
20:49:02  <frosch123> lbalbalba: we have many humans who monotonously build tracks and engines
20:49:11  <planetmaker> lol
20:49:33  <lbalbalba> Rubidium: you mean the analyze cant assign 'weight' to the severity of the report ?
20:49:53  <lbalbalba> frosch123: tyhat sucks. lets prtogram a bot to do that for them
20:50:20  <lbalbalba> sorry for the typos
20:52:04  <lbalbalba> okay. so thanks for answering the original question. it has been enlightening. thank all
20:55:35  <lbalbalba> well, knowing coverity was here first was helpful. see you all later. time to eat now
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21:22:20  <frosch123> night
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22:48:30  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:06:00  <Andreas> hi
23:07:07  <Aristide> Andreas: o/
23:07:27  <Andreas> Is the ""Disable infrastructure building when no suitable vehicles are available" function broken or am I not understanding the effect it should have correctly?
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