Log for #openttd on 23rd March 2014:
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00:06:14  <frosch123> night
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00:12:46  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:54:21  <Eddi|zuHause> <fjb> Alberth: It is way better than C. <-- it's better in C because it has only one type :p
01:03:14  <Kjetil> I like my types like my creditcards, void
01:22:45  <Eddi|zuHause> if that was a joke, i don't get it.
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05:05:09  <Supercheese> OTTD has too many tooltips
05:05:17  <Supercheese> it makes translation a very lengthy process
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07:44:18  <andythenorth> o/
07:49:04  <planetmaker> moin moin
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08:01:05  <planetmaker> hm, no release time. musa doesn't like me and breaks my pipe
08:03:16  <SpComb> kill -PIPE -1
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08:38:43  <andythenorth> yay
08:38:48  <andythenorth> CC_NON_POURABLE finally was useful :)
08:39:28  <Supercheese> dump trucks vs non-dump trucks?
08:39:29  <andythenorth> also Pikka hello
08:39:35  <andythenorth> Supercheese: kind of yes
08:39:42  <Pikka> hello
08:39:56  <Pikka> ew non pourable
08:44:37  <Pikka> what cargos are non-pourable? except sugar cane?
08:45:33  <__ln___> passengers?
08:45:42  <planetmaker> Pikka, windows
08:45:43  <Supercheese> molasses
08:45:58  <planetmaker> antique ceramics
08:46:07  <Pikka> yebbut
08:46:16  <Pikka> non-pourable is generally a modifier for "bulk"...
08:46:20  <planetmaker> fish yes, general cattle... they might disagree
08:47:18  <planetmaker> mail bags?
08:47:48  <Pikka> does it?
08:47:49  <planetmaker> scrap metal? Or can that be poured
08:47:53  <planetmaker> ?
08:48:03  <Pikka> probably that is non-pourable, yes
08:48:17  <Pikka> scrap metal and sugar cane are the two FIRS cargos that I had to make special cases D;
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08:57:15  * Pikka bbanon
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09:09:22  <V453000> to hell with cargo classes! Universal wagons to glory! :D
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09:39:48  <andythenorth> hmm
09:39:52  <andythenorth> non-refittable classes
09:40:31  <planetmaker> hm?
09:41:04  <andythenorth> usually I say “never use non-refittable classes"
09:41:17  <andythenorth> because who knows what cargo authors might do, and it risks breaking class compatibility
09:41:27  <andythenorth> I think I should stick to that :P
09:41:45  <planetmaker> it can have a gameplay purpose. Not going by class. But simply requiring a certain cargo
09:41:54  <planetmaker> But... meh :)
09:42:02  <andythenorth> I am stopping mining trucks refitting wood etc
09:42:05  <andythenorth> by label
09:42:08  <andythenorth> which won’t break
09:42:13  <andythenorth> I could do it by class :P
09:42:14  <planetmaker> yeah
09:42:15  <andythenorth> which will break
09:42:22  <planetmaker> possibly, yes
09:42:35  <planetmaker> depends whether you care :) Or how classes are used
09:43:00  <andythenorth> I care more about non-breaking than I care about ‘omg, someone is carrying a cargo in a game and andythenorth doesn’t approve’
09:43:03  <planetmaker> a mining truck can easily exclude non-pourable, I think. As well as piece goods or liquid
09:43:49  <planetmaker> I agree. If someone transports <whatever> - why would I care. If they don't approve they shouldn't do it :)
09:44:19  <andythenorth> I am sticking to labels
09:44:30  <planetmaker> that's easy, yes. And reliable
09:44:32  <andythenorth> which will work for the games I play, and everyone else gets classes
09:44:39  <planetmaker> ^
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10:11:03  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> usually I say “never use non-refittable classes" <-- non-refittable classes are fine, as long as it's not circular
10:11:26  <Eddi|zuHause> if you say "A and not B", you can't also say "B and not A"
10:11:47  <Eddi|zuHause> but "A and not B" and  "B only" is fine
10:12:31  <Eddi|zuHause> also, WOOD and GOOD are always special cases, as they have weird default classes
10:14:32  <andythenorth> hm
10:14:56  * andythenorth wonders if analysis could show whether a specific rev of a set has full coverage
10:15:02  <andythenorth> basically a unit test
10:15:20  <andythenorth> regression test / unit test /s
10:16:53  <andythenorth> I could write that in the compile stage, checking dates and classes, and report on any classes that are unsupported / unintentionally excluded
10:18:44  <andythenorth> could != should
10:18:47  <Eddi|zuHause> not in the compiling stage, but in the code generator stage
10:20:52  <Eddi|zuHause> a simple condition would be "every cargo/class that appears on the 'don't' list, must also appear at a 'do' list without any 'don'ts'
10:21:16  <Eddi|zuHause> a more complicated check could apply this transitively
10:21:20  <andythenorth> +1
10:21:29  <Eddi|zuHause> so "A and not B", "B and not C", "C" is valid
10:21:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the first check would discard this as invalid
10:22:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i have this case for refrigerated
10:23:10  <Eddi|zuHause> or sheltered?
10:23:18  <Eddi|zuHause> don't remember
10:27:50  <Eddi|zuHause> so, algorithm: 1) find a class that does not have any 'don't' list. 2) remove this class from all 'don't' lists. 3) repeat this, until all 'don't' lists are empty (success) or no suitible class can be found (fail)
10:30:43  * andythenorth considers
10:30:52  <andythenorth> it sounds plausible
10:31:07  <andythenorth> a typical case for me is covered and non-covered hoppers
10:32:15  <andythenorth> or hoppers (pourable bulk only), and open wagons
10:32:33  <andythenorth> currently I just solve it with labels, which is trivial and reliable, but manual
10:32:36  <Eddi|zuHause> hopper -> bulk and not sheltered, boxed, covered hopper -> sheltered and not boxed, bos -> boxed and not [empty]
10:33:02  <Eddi|zuHause> for example
10:34:55  <andythenorth> hmm
10:35:02  <andythenorth> there is a non-programmatic solution too
10:35:13  <Eddi|zuHause> above algorithm would find "boxed", then "sheltered" (after removing "boxed") and then "bulk"
10:35:17  <Eddi|zuHause> -> valid
10:35:26  <andythenorth> IH always has open wagons, which are universal -> refit anything
10:35:39  <andythenorth> it there’s always a universal wagon, there will never be an orphaned cargo
10:35:42  <andythenorth> if *
10:35:57  <Eddi|zuHause> that is true
10:36:09  <andythenorth> the RV set I’m making doesn’t have a universal truck :P
10:36:11  <andythenorth> maybe it should
10:36:37  <Eddi|zuHause> but then why add any non-universal vehicle?
10:36:38  <planetmaker> liquids can always be put in barrels. Or ventilation for live cattle
10:36:47  <andythenorth> coal in sacks...
10:37:05  <planetmaker> kinda
10:37:34  * andythenorth rethinks
10:38:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll probably only offer univevrsal wagon for narrow gauge (-> "Rollbock")
10:41:25  <andythenorth> I’ve changed a truck type to refit everything
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11:08:03  <andythenorth> but not realism :(
11:08:05  <andythenorth> oh well
11:08:44  <Pikka> realism is the best
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11:10:42  <andythenorth> which truck is more ‘universal’ ?
11:10:42  <andythenorth>
11:10:48  <andythenorth>,_20_January_2009.jpg
11:11:24  <Pikka> probably the curtainside
11:11:45  <planetmaker> The MAN
11:11:59  <Pikka> who's the MAN?
11:12:14  <planetmaker> the manufacturer ;) Also found in the URL of the 2nd image
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11:44:47  <fjb> Moin
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11:44:59  <Pikka> there's no need to take it so hard
11:45:02  <Pikka> moin fjb
11:47:23  <planetmaker> heya fjb
11:47:58  <planetmaker> fjb, you think we find time for a hike in one of the next weekends, provided we'll have good weather?
11:49:05  <andythenorth> Pikka: agreed, curtainside
11:49:13  <andythenorth> coal in sacks :P
11:49:25  <andythenorth> not-very-secure-diamonds
11:49:31  <Pikka> or just everything in containers :P
11:50:01  <planetmaker> containers fit everything :)
11:50:03  <Pikka> I don't think you really need a universal truck though, you just need to make sure all the basic classes are covered
11:50:11  <planetmaker> passengers, sub-type 'illegal immigrant'
11:50:45  <andythenorth>
11:52:42  <Pikka> it's never too late to be a coal man
11:57:23  <andythenorth> more andythenorth later
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12:47:09  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26419 trunk/src/tree_gui.cpp (2014-03-23 12:47:04 UTC)
12:47:10  <DorpsGek> -Cleanup: Remove implementation of BuildTreesWindow::OnPaint since it matches the one of the base class.
12:47:27  * LordAro reappears
12:47:29  <LordAro> hey all
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12:49:28  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26420 trunk/src/goal_gui.cpp (2014-03-23 12:49:22 UTC)
12:49:29  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r25623) [FS#5948]: Goal GUI failed to shade.
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13:00:43  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26421 extra/musa/ (2014-03-23 13:00:37 UTC)
13:00:44  <DorpsGek> [musa] -Fix (rbegin): the first version of none of the content could be uploaded instead of only disallowing heightmaps and scenarios
13:02:01  <frosch123> i have heard of people starting counting with 0 or 1
13:02:11  <frosch123> why do sound effects in ottd start with 2?
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13:03:01  <frosch123> SND_02_SPLAT = 0,                          //  0 == 0x00 ! <- all of the sound effects enums are shifted by two
13:04:10  <rubidium> frosch123: reminds me of some specification where the first column of a csv was the row number. The specs said: the first row contains a header, the second (and further) contains the data. As per specs I started counting the data rows from 2
13:04:34  <frosch123> "_sound_idx" somehow inserts sounds 0 and 1 between 40 and 41
13:05:19  <frosch123> ok, that nonsense is already in ottd 0.1
13:05:27  <frosch123> end of the road :p
13:06:42  <rubidium> can a NewGRF refer to existing sounds?
13:06:58  <frosch123> yes
13:07:21  <frosch123> they can replace them, and vehicles and bridges can trigger them
13:13:01  <rubidium> that makes unshifting kinda hard then, though on the other hand it's kinda stupid that they changed the order later on
13:13:50  <rubidium> (they = CS et al.)
13:14:59  <frosch123> <- fs#5946
13:15:10  <frosch123> i need a better name than SND_1F_SPLAT_ROAD_AIR_LANDSCAPE though
13:15:22  <frosch123> apparently there are specific sound effects for water and rail construction
13:15:39  <frosch123> and one for the rest: road, terraform and airport
13:15:41  <rubidium> check opensfx's source
13:18:52  <Eddi|zuHause> water is a splat, rail is a fwump and others are a louder fwump?
13:18:56  <frosch123> "Splat (building docks/canals/river)", "Splat (terraform/non-rail builds", "Splat (rail builds)"
13:19:20  <frosch123> i guess i just change it to SND_1F_SPLAT_OTHER
13:19:24  <frosch123> and put the rest into comments
13:19:44  <Eddi|zuHause> why keep the 1F?
13:19:53  <frosch123> because they all have it
13:19:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i think we removed those from strings at some point
13:20:01  <frosch123> and it refers to the index in the sound file
13:20:15  <frosch123> so, if you want to match them to sounds in basesets, you need that index
13:20:35  <Eddi|zuHause> then change the enum to match these indices?
13:20:35  <frosch123> they were removed from strings when they were no longer valid
13:20:38  <frosch123> these are valid
13:20:47  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: cpt. clever, right?
13:20:57  <frosch123> we just discussed that
13:20:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, always
13:21:50  <Eddi|zuHause> having the index in the name feels somewhat redundant
13:22:10  <frosch123> see, there you are wrong
13:22:52  <frosch123> it not being redundant is the problem
13:23:49  <Eddi|zuHause> make a const array that maps the one index type to the other :p
13:24:11  <frosch123> i am sure you have something important to do
13:24:19  <Eddi|zuHause> haha :p
13:24:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i need to handle hydrochloric acid
13:25:39  <Eddi|zuHause> comes in a wagon or lorry, and can go into a lorry or local storage tank
13:28:38  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26422 /trunk/src (7 files) (2014-03-23 13:28:32 UTC)
13:28:39  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5946]: Some road constructions used the rail sound effect. Rename the enum items to properly reflect their purpose.
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13:46:24  <frosch123> maybe i am overestimating the influence of newgrf on original sound effects
13:46:33  <frosch123> let's see whether i can remove the sift
13:46:50  <frosch123> sift/shift/shit, pick as you like
13:46:57  <Flygon> I play OpenTTD on silent
13:47:06  <frosch123> i do as well
13:47:13  <frosch123> no idea why i bothered :p
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13:50:43  <frosch123> ah well, not worth it
13:51:03  <frosch123> it ain't broken
13:51:29  <frosch123> better translate the numbers when loading the original sounds
13:51:39  <frosch123> rather than translating in 10 places of newgrf interfaces
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14:06:26  <Alberth> hi hi Wolf01
14:06:39  <Wolf01> hello o/
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14:13:23  <Alberth> o/
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14:13:38  <krinn> hi everyone
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14:15:09  <krinn> do we have a tool to query a savegame like the -q but more informative
14:16:21  <andythenorth> o/
14:16:33  <planetmaker> krinn, that tool is called openttd. Then console -> gamelog
14:16:49  <Alberth> or open mini map :)
14:16:56  <krinn> :) i mean without opening the savegame, still lacky one newgrf so can't open it
14:17:08  <andythenorth> who is co-author of Road Hog?
14:17:12  <planetmaker> krinn, enable newgrf developer tools
14:17:21  <planetmaker> or scenario developer rather
14:17:44  <krinn> oh and btw: one could test -> openttd -q savegame (savegame literally, a non exisiting savegame) : crash instead of telling bad file...
14:17:53  <andythenorth> I need someone to moan at / also help
14:18:12  <andythenorth> otherwise decisions are hard :P
14:18:18  <andythenorth> and the teddybear doesn’t say much back
14:18:22  <planetmaker> doesn't DanMacK suit that role? :P
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14:18:47  <andythenorth> yeah, is problem, he is absent
14:18:52  <krinn> could enable newgrf dev tool thru console or i need set it on conf ?
14:18:53  <andythenorth> family troubles
14:19:10  <andythenorth> Dan is good because relentlessly enthusiastic
14:19:17  <andythenorth> balances my non-enthusiasm :P
14:19:38  <planetmaker> hm, I didn't even know about -q switch :)
14:19:47  <planetmaker> krinn, both is feasible
14:19:58  <planetmaker> with console you can edit anything which is in cfg
14:20:13  <planetmaker> at least in settings sections
14:20:25  <krinn> the -q query savegame for info, with a bad filename, it's ok, with the filename "savegame" my openttd dump
14:20:26  <planetmaker> notable difference is static newgrfs
14:20:46  <planetmaker> yeah, I get a segmentation fault with non-existing file
14:21:38  <krinn> not critical, but might hide something worst (weak filename handling?)
14:22:15  <krinn> planetmaker redo with non valid filename but end it with .sav :)
14:24:40  <planetmaker> he :)
14:25:03  <krinn> ah great, been able to load it with newgrf dev set ! just to see Zuu was right, no gs at all in it
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14:33:40  <Pikka> I blame dalestan
14:34:55  <Pikka> potaghat has landed
14:36:56  <andythenorth> hopefully my pigs will fly soon too
14:37:10  <Pikka> yes
14:37:31  <andythenorth> got a bit stuck
14:37:34  <andythenorth> oh well
14:37:48  <Pikka> so this gamescript
14:37:51  <andythenorth> indeed
14:37:51  <Pikka> is it okay if it's actually
14:37:56  <Pikka> nothing like silicon valley?
14:37:56  <andythenorth> thankyou yes
14:38:28  <andythenorth> Pikka what is it like now? :)
14:38:51  <Pikka> it's like nothing now
14:38:55  <Pikka> it runs but it doesn't do anything
14:39:08  <Pikka> but I have ideas. Strange ideas.
14:39:26  <andythenorth> I’ll test them
14:39:31  <andythenorth> when they do something
14:39:38  <andythenorth> can anyone explain andythenorth to me?
14:40:05  <andythenorth> he thinks it’s ok for the train set to have vans, open wagons, and flat cars, and container wagons
14:40:14  <andythenorth> but the truck set must only have one general cargo truck type
14:40:17  <andythenorth> why is this?
14:40:29  <andythenorth> the problem with andythenorth is that he makes no sense
14:40:48  <Pikka> true
14:41:29  <andythenorth> why not box trucks, flat trucks and open trucks?
14:41:35  <andythenorth> all with same stats
14:41:46  <Pikka> why not indeed
14:41:48  <Pikka> and the same name
14:42:27  <andythenorth> don’t mention the subtypes :P
14:44:25  <Pikka> I might have mentioned them once, but I think I got away with it
14:45:13  <Alberth> andy  may be biased by RL or other vehicle sets?
14:45:29  <andythenorth> trying to match it to Iron Horse
14:45:41  <andythenorth> same as default trucks match up to default trains
14:45:53  <krinn> there's no command to list savegame the server have ?
14:46:11  <planetmaker> rcon ls
14:46:17  <planetmaker> rcon cd
14:46:35  <krinn> ah ok, easy
14:46:51  <andythenorth> trucks != trains though :P
14:47:38  <andythenorth> hmm
14:47:39  <Alberth> V may try to prove you wrong :p
14:47:49  <andythenorth> maybe the answer _is_ to match them
14:49:31  <krinn> planetmaker, server handle them right
14:53:19  <krinn> wonder how that thing works : "rcon pwd ls" : get the list, but "rcon pwd load 1" or "rcon pwd load filename.sav" doesn't work
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14:55:37  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26423 trunk/src/fios.cpp (2014-03-23 14:55:32 UTC)
14:55:38  <DorpsGek> -Fix: Don't crash when supplying an invalid filename without extension to cmd parameter -q
14:55:53  <krinn> ^^
14:58:47  <planetmaker> krinn, to answer your question: no, servers don't crash. But... this channel is way more suitable than private messages :)
14:59:09  <planetmaker> they load the titlegame instead
14:59:38  <planetmaker> or otherwise they create a water-only map
15:00:10  <krinn> yep i saw, i tried :)
15:00:36  <krinn> but from the server i'm able to load number, but rcon pwd load number do nothing
15:00:39  <planetmaker> my channel list is too long, didn't see the private query :P
15:00:48  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, this "-q" seems to crash on patched games (where loading shows "invalid chunk size")
15:00:58  <planetmaker> then the server misses NewGRFs, krinn
15:01:27  <planetmaker> rcon pwd load doesn't exist anyway :P
15:01:42  <krinn> how can one load a map ?
15:01:50  <planetmaker> rcon "load 3"
15:01:56  <planetmaker> if savegame #3 is the map
15:02:09  <planetmaker> rcon "load filename.sav"
15:02:11  <planetmaker> alternatively
15:02:28  <krinn> doesn't work for me
15:02:29  <planetmaker> oh, there's somewhere a password involved
15:02:38  <krinn> but rcon pwd ls i get the file list from the server
15:02:48  <Eddi|zuHause> krinn: the "" are relevant
15:03:05  <krinn> ah ok
15:03:07  <planetmaker> rcon pwd ls
15:03:15  <planetmaker> ^that's two commands which don't go in one line
15:03:20  <planetmaker> either
15:03:25  <planetmaker> rcon password "pwd"
15:03:27  <planetmaker> or
15:03:31  <planetmaker> rcon password "ls"
15:03:36  <andythenorth> hmm, I’d better delete the little ‘farm tram’ :P
15:03:39  <andythenorth> shame, it was cute
15:03:49  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: "pwd" means "password"
15:03:51  <planetmaker> woot, andythenorth ?! I translated already 'farm tram' :P
15:04:00  <planetmaker> does it, Eddi|zuHause ?
15:04:06  <andythenorth> well you get a livestock tram instead :(
15:04:07  <krinn> funny the ls works with quote
15:04:09  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yes.
15:04:27  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, that's highly imbiguous. as there's rcon password "pwd"
15:04:53  <Pikka> cowbus
15:04:59  <planetmaker> moobus
15:05:01  <krinn> but Eddi|zuHause is right thinking i wasn't aware a "pwd" command exist :)
15:05:07  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: not my fault :p
15:05:34  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but syntactically, the "pwd" there cannot mean the "pwd" command
15:05:37  <alluke> will 1.4.0 rc1 savegames be compatible with 1.4.0?
15:06:04  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there are programming languages where "if if then then else else" is a valid statement :)
15:06:49  <planetmaker> alluke, even 0.1.0 savegames are compatible with 1.4.0
15:07:05  <alluke> ok
15:07:07  <planetmaker> heck even TTD
15:07:12  <planetmaker> (but not TTDPatch)
15:07:15  <planetmaker> even TTO
15:07:15  <alluke> just thought about it since it contains cargodist
15:07:16  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the meaning of "if"/"then"/"else" depends on syntactical postion
15:07:33  <alluke> i have some ancient cargodist games that don't work on anything else
15:07:45  <andythenorth> stupid boring tram -> truck progression :P
15:07:56  <planetmaker> yes, they're not played with official Openttd versions, alluke
15:08:00  <Eddi|zuHause> alluke: that's because older cargodist versions are not official builds
15:08:08  <alluke> okay
15:08:08  <alluke> thanks
15:09:24  <krinn> except -q no other tools exists to read a savegame ? (companies, ai, gs in it...)
15:10:09  <planetmaker> krinn, no, there doesn't. And it would be a PITA to maintain
15:10:43  <planetmaker> it would need to duplicate the whole saveload and keep up with trunk for each new setting, various code changes etc
15:11:35  <krinn> ok, it's a rarer use case than newgrf anyway
15:11:50  <planetmaker> if you need more output, it possibly could be amended to -q. AI and GS info would make sense. Patches welcome then :P
15:11:55  <planetmaker> similar to all crash output
15:12:34  <krinn> my skills are limited to find bugs, well, even when not trying
15:12:46  <planetmaker> :)
15:13:00  <krinn> and by find bug, i only mean : trigger
15:19:27  <andythenorth> how about RV-wagons?
15:19:29  <andythenorth> o_O
15:19:57  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: never
15:24:04  * andythenorth has a rethink :P
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15:30:16  <Pikka> andythenorth: articulated aircraft, flying truck convoys
15:30:22  <andythenorth> yay
15:30:27  <andythenorth> hover truck
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15:45:44  <Alberth> make a set of trucks that drive on a rail track by some conversion gear
15:46:04  <Eddi|zuHause> make ships that drive on roads?
15:46:25  <Alberth> only when pulled by a car :p
15:52:53  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a movie where a hovercraft went down a road, but i don't rembember which one
15:54:13  <krinn> some james bond
15:54:37  <krinn> i think it was one with moore
15:55:27  <Eddi|zuHause> weren't those boats that jumped over the road?
15:55:41  <Eddi|zuHause> it might have been a jackie chan movie
15:55:48  <krinn> :)
15:55:56  <andythenorth> I think I delete about half the stuff I do in newgrf :P
15:55:59  <andythenorth> nvm
15:56:00  <krinn> actually boats jumps is also from chan movie
15:56:31  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure there were boat jumps in loads of movies :)
15:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause> like a bud spencer movie
15:59:50  <krinn> well, i would only bet on him crushing someone heads
16:00:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i think they landed on a cop car or something
16:01:59  <krinn> generally they use to land on bikes, the guy get mad cause of that, and spencer crush heads loop start
16:03:01  <Eddi|zuHause> google thinks the jackie chan movie is "rumble in the bronx"
16:05:42  <krinn> well, google only answer me "james bond babe" when i search james bond overcraft, i should drop search babes with google
16:09:26  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- about halfway through
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16:10:54  <krinn> This video is not available in your country. <- Seriously :)
16:11:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought they only do that in germany :p
16:12:35  <krinn> i thought only abc was doing that lame thing
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16:15:32  <krinn> <- don't ask how i end here, but wow, that pilot has skills!
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16:23:50  * andythenorth has maybe solved it
16:23:56  <andythenorth> ‘it’ being an RV roster :P
16:24:12  <andythenorth> having a strict rule about multiples of 8 adds challenge
16:24:23  <andythenorth> I blame the pikka oiseau
16:25:37  <Pikka> maybe
16:27:32  <andythenorth> but without arbitrary rules, what’s the fun?
16:27:59  <andythenorth> it got better when I took this out
16:28:04  <andythenorth> on the grounds that it’s a brit roster
16:28:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'm getting the hang of this fibonacci 2048
16:28:20  <andythenorth> Dresden isn’t _strictly_ in Britain
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16:54:15  <Eddi|zuHause> well in a weird alternate history, it could have been :)
17:00:44  <andythenorth> I’ll save it for the euro roster ;)
17:20:07  <andythenorth> vehicle type = herd of cattle
17:20:14  <andythenorth> great idea or *terrible* idea?
17:20:34  <Pikka> it's so terrible it might be brilliant
17:21:01  <andythenorth> I had it 6 years ago
17:21:14  <andythenorth> if it was any good, I’d have done it by now?
17:21:40  <Pikka> well
17:21:47  <andythenorth> subtype refits: cows, pigs, sheep
17:21:47  <Pikka> we can't go evaluating ideas on that basis...
17:22:04  <andythenorth> can I do it without animation?
17:22:12  <Eddi|zuHause> no
17:22:26  <Eddi|zuHause> has to be fully 4x zoom 32bpp animated
17:22:48  <Pikka> but the smallest step a vehicle makes is 4px, 16px at 4x zoom
17:23:04  <Pikka> so either your animation will be very jerky or your animals will be huge
17:23:23  <andythenorth> I was thinking animate position of animals relative to each other
17:23:25  <andythenorth> not the legs :P
17:23:31  <Eddi|zuHause> like
17:23:32  <Pikka> o
17:23:41  <andythenorth> also we will have newgrf effects sometime
17:23:44  <andythenorth> so dust cloud
17:23:48  <Pikka> yes
17:23:49  <andythenorth> also poo
17:23:52  <Pikka> still terrible
17:23:56  <Pikka> but not as terrible as gold rush
17:24:43  <Pikka> I have a 4x zoom 32bpp cow you can borrow
17:24:48  <andythenorth> oh joy
17:24:57  <andythenorth> at normal size, cow is pixels
17:24:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: also: sounds
17:25:11  <andythenorth> do you actually want me to do this?
17:25:22  <andythenorth> it does kind of fit the name of the set :P
17:25:25  <Pikka> definitely not
17:25:45  <Pikka> is it going to moove at 5mph
17:25:45  <Eddi|zuHause> we let you do anything if this questioning stops :p
17:26:00  <andythenorth> Pikka: it will stampede at 20mph
17:26:05  <andythenorth> 5mph is boring
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17:26:15  <Pikka> why not just put them inna truck then
17:26:19  <andythenorth> well
17:26:21  <andythenorth> indeed
17:26:23  <Pikka> or a tram
17:26:24  <Pikka> or a train
17:26:26  <andythenorth> that too
17:26:29  <Pikka> or a hot air balloon
17:26:32  <andythenorth> exactly
17:26:33  <Pikka> or a dinghy
17:26:35  <andythenorth> or a helicopter
17:26:38  <Pikka> or a spaceshuttle
17:26:44  <andythenorth> spacezellepin
17:26:55  <andythenorth> why aren’t there spacezellepins?
17:26:57  <Eddi|zuHause> let the herd of sheep be carried by a herd of cows?
17:26:58  <Pikka> yes, spacezellepins in space
17:27:04  <andythenorth> would be much more efficient than rockets
17:27:06  <andythenorth> just float
17:27:13  <andythenorth> we sent a tent into space once
17:27:20  <Pikka> who's we?
17:27:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen that video
17:28:01  <Eddi|zuHause> with dolls in the tent, carried by a balloon
17:28:15  <andythenorth> I’ll add a herd to the roster
17:28:17  <andythenorth> needs a name :P
17:28:28  <andythenorth> Risingstench
17:28:55  <Eddi|zuHause> if you make it available in the before-lorries-age?
17:29:04  <andythenorth> I think it’s a stupid idea
17:29:12  <andythenorth> unfortunately that makes it likely to happen
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17:31:23  <Eddi|zuHause> can't be more stupid than regearing :p
17:32:19  <Pikka> I'm sure if he tries very hard it could be
17:32:29  <Pikka> regearable cattle?
17:32:42  <andythenorth> I was thinking multiple refits
17:32:56  <andythenorth> 30 / 120 / 360 units
17:33:01  <andythenorth> pigs, sheep, cows
17:33:04  <andythenorth> no chickens
17:33:14  <andythenorth> ‘herd of chickens'
17:34:48  <Pikka> of course I've heard of chickens
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17:39:19  <EndymionM> Hi, I have a new machine with Ubuntu 12 on it and I installed OpenTTD 1.3.3 - same as I have on my XP machine.  Any clue as to why it runs so much slower on Linux?
17:40:00  <Eddi|zuHause> there was this video about a chinese guy who herds ducks through the city
17:40:43  <Eddi|zuHause> EndymionM: graphics driver has 2D-acceleration?
17:41:07  <Eddi|zuHause> EndymionM: does it run faster if you make the window smaller?
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17:44:26  <Eddi|zuHause> ibm_Endymion: did you read my replies?
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17:44:56  <ibm_Endymion> Sorry about that.  Tried to close the DOS window.  I only saw the questions.  I did post a reply - did it not go through?
17:45:06  <Eddi|zuHause> no
17:45:10  <ibm_Endymion> Eddi|zuHause: I have no idea what the driver has.  I'm a Windows user, but my friend stuck me with this OS and said, "here, you'll love this" - he's dead wrong.   As far as shrinking the window, I haven't tried.  I run fullscreen at full speed on the same hardware on XP, both SP2 and SP3.
17:46:20  <Eddi|zuHause> ibm_Endymion: default drivers often have very poor acceleration support, try the window thing, and if that shows an effect, install a driver specific for your graphics card
17:46:55  <ibm_Endymion> Eddi|zuHause: Alright, I'll try.  Thanks.
17:47:20  <Eddi|zuHause> ibm_Endymion: transitioning to another OS may be difficult at first, but once you find your way around the quirks it's probably fine
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17:49:29  <ibm_Endymion> Eddi|zuHause: I hope you're right, because otherwise I'm going to be going out and buying a new hard drive.
17:50:07  <ibm_Endymion> Either way - Thank you.  I hope I can get my favorite game working on this rig.
17:50:10  <Eddi|zuHause> what's a hard drive going to change?
17:51:17  <andythenorth> I am going to regret this stupid livestock herd idea
17:53:46  <ibm_Endymion> Eddi|zuHause: Step 1: Get new Hard Drive. Step 2: Format & Install Win XP, lay Ubuntu to the side (known working) Step 3: ???? Step 4: Profit!
17:54:18  <Eddi|zuHause> you can also create a partition on an existing drive :)
17:54:38  <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think this will be necessary
17:55:27  <ibm_Endymion> I could.  I hope it won't be, but, I'm really getting tired of all the little problems.
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18:01:45  <Zuu> Pikka: Better go for same strange script ideas than yet another city builder :-)
18:02:11  <Pikka> o/
18:02:20  <Zuu> Hello :-)
18:03:09  <planetmaker> moin Zuu :)
18:03:13  <Zuu> Assuming your "strange ideas" isn't yet another city builder ;-)
18:04:19  <LordAro> o/
18:04:50  <Zuu> I think there are many new script ideas that are yet to be implemeted by someone.
18:05:27  <planetmaker> definitely
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18:30:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking of building a highway system that roughly runs equidistant to the neighbouring cities
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19:00:59  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: like a freeway etc?
19:01:20  <andythenorth> so you have trunk routes and connecting routes?
19:01:24  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever you call a 4 lane road in your country
19:01:40  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, basically
19:01:57  <andythenorth> nice idea
19:02:11  <andythenorth> would you build them two-tile, one way?
19:03:18  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
19:03:32  <Eddi|zuHause> or with road objects :p
19:09:24  <Pikka> roadtypes!
19:10:12  <Pikka> watertypes!
19:10:17  <Pikka> new(air)ports!
19:11:09  <Zuu> We got wetrails, when do we get roadrails? :-)
19:13:04  <Eddi|zuHause> there were "trams" like 10 years ago :p
19:13:15  <Eddi|zuHause> coded as railtype
19:13:23  <Eddi|zuHause> that looked like a road
19:13:27  <Zuu> Oh
19:22:04  <Supercheese> Code roads as railtypes
19:22:11  <Supercheese> problem solved?
19:22:46  <planetmaker> Supercheese, except towns need roads ;)
19:22:52  <Supercheese> Bah, details
19:24:38  <Supercheese> Oh man, this could be a problem
19:24:57  <Supercheese> I doubt that {STATION} names have cases available (dative, accusative, etc.)
19:25:08  <Supercheese> or do they?
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19:27:30  <EndymionM> Sory to vent here but, Ubuntu chat people are helpless at trying to help fix this slowdown problem.  Apparently, they look down on hardware they consider 'ancient'.  Regardless of whether or not OpenTTD works perfectly in Windows, and Ubuntu is running slow.
19:28:24  <Alberth> that's normal :p
19:28:46  <planetmaker> EndymionM, a modern Ubunutu is like installing windows8 on that machine. If you install an ancient ubuntu with an ancient GUI, that will likely also run faster
19:29:14  <planetmaker> only speaking about required ressources for proper GUI usage
19:29:34  <planetmaker> not about other things
19:29:37  <EndymionM> planetmaker: The OS itself runs fine, so does Firefox, so does... well, everything but OpenTTD really :-(
19:30:02  <Alberth> but as eddi already said, it's probably a graphic driver problem; windows drivers are highly optimized by the manufacturer of the video card; linux drivers are often much less advanced
19:30:45  <Alberth> in particular if you have nvidia, as the manufacturer refuses to give specs of its hardware for developing drivers
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19:30:59  <EndymionM> planetmaker: The OS itself runs fine, so does Firefox, so does... well, everything but OpenTTD really :-(
19:31:08  <Alberth> EndymionM: get a more stable connection :p
19:31:27  <Alberth> EndymionM:
19:31:29  <EndymionM> Alberth: Working on that, actually!
19:32:54  <Alberth> openttd is really pushing the video card in ways that few other applications do, so the fact that it runs nicely with some other program doesn't mean a lot
19:34:02  <EndymionM> Alberth: Thanks.  And supposedly, this card should be able to run it - according to the Ubuntu wiki.
19:34:21  <Alberth> it does, doesn't it? :)
19:34:54  <frosch123> generally try 32bpp and 8bpp
19:35:41  <frosch123> try zbase and opengfx as basesets
19:35:45  <frosch123> and see whether it makes a difference
19:35:59  <frosch123> also try windowed and fullscreen, and check for differences
19:36:36  <Eddi|zuHause> EndymionM: you still did not answer the question whether window size makes a difference
19:37:11  <EndymionM> eddi|zuHause: Let me double-check that to be certain.
19:37:22  <Supercheese> oh well, station names will just have to sit there, indeclinable :(
19:38:42  <EndymionM> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, it makes a huge difference.  The smaller the window, the better the speed.
19:39:04  <Eddi|zuHause> then it's almost definitely the graphics driver
19:39:36  <frosch123> as said, try both zbase and opengfx
19:41:16  <maddy_> linux generally has 2 graphics drivers (at least for ATI), the official closed-source one and the open-source one
19:41:22  <maddy_> so you could try both
19:42:35  <EndymionM> I actually know that fglrx does not work with the Mobility Radeon 7500 (which is what I've got).
19:43:21  <maddy_> ok that narrows your choices then
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19:45:56  <maddy_> ubuntu is not the most lightweight of linux distros out there, but if the gpu is the bottleneck, then changing the distro probably doesn't help either
19:46:55  <EndymionM> I am not trying to "change distro".  If I change at all, it's back to XP.  Linux isn't something I like, it came on the machine, it boots, it runs Firefox, it connects to the Internet.  I thought it would run OpenTTD.
19:47:22  <frosch123> well, it runs it for everyone else :p
19:48:05  <maddy_> is it old ubuntu? or newest 13.10?
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19:48:29  <maddy_> is it old ubuntu? or newest 13.10?
19:48:39  <EndymionM> maddy_: 12.04.4 LTS.
19:48:53  <Eddi|zuHause> ubuntu versions: year.month
19:49:03  <Eddi|zuHause> so october 2013
19:49:19  <maddy_> EndymionM: well you should upgrade to 13.10, there is a chance it has newer version of the graphics driver
19:49:36  <Eddi|zuHause> would be 13.10
19:49:59  <Eddi|zuHause> there's usually a .04 and a .10
19:50:06  <EndymionM> maddy_: The very concept of upgrading this crate terrifies me.  Every time I've upgraded something on this hardware on Windows (except OpenTTD and Firefox)... bad things have happened.
19:51:21  <Eddi|zuHause> well the other option is to downgrade to something ancient enough to support the fglrx legacy driver
19:52:00  <maddy_> well, that is your choice, but that is what I would try least try the new ubuntu before you install windows xp :)
19:52:35  <Eddi|zuHause> EndymionM: can you start "openttd -b 32bpp-optimized" and see if that makes a difference?
19:53:25  <Supercheese> Awesome, "nutcracker" in Latin is "nucifrangibulum"
19:53:45  <Supercheese> I'd hazard the German translation is equally fun
19:54:29  <Eddi|zuHause> why?
19:54:30  <frosch123> Nussknacker?
19:54:38  <Supercheese> German is a fun language in general
19:54:46  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it is
19:54:47  <frosch123> german and english is almost the same
19:54:56  <Supercheese> Well yeah, but familiarity breeds contempt
19:55:02  <Supercheese> so English is no longer fun for me
19:55:16  <EndymionM> Supercheese: are you watching QI, perchance?
19:55:35  <Supercheese> no, just trying to translate OTTD
19:55:57  <Supercheese> how did the German translation get away with not using any cases?
19:56:14  <EndymionM> Okay, dare I ask, why Latin?
19:56:16  <Supercheese> I'm seemingly needing datives and accusatives all over the place
19:56:24  <Eddi|zuHause> cases are fixed in the context of the string
19:56:32  <Supercheese> Well, because a) I've studied Latin b) There is no Latin translation yet
19:56:49  <Eddi|zuHause> the string is always the same
19:56:56  <EndymionM> Supercheese: I see.  And why nutcracker?
19:57:03  <Supercheese> oh that just came up randomly
19:57:10  <Supercheese> I was perusing the Latin dictionary
19:57:39  <Supercheese> I found it interesting someone decided it was worth including "nutcracker"
19:57:44  <EndymionM> Ah, I see.
19:57:49  <maddy_> I was just thinking that's likely a word not present in OTTD, at least if newgrfs are excluded
19:57:53  <Supercheese> as the usage is surely extremely limited
19:58:00  <EndymionM> Well, you couldn't translate The Nutcracker without it, could you?
19:58:16  <Eddi|zuHause> there should really be nutcrackers in toyland. it's a major oversight
19:58:24  <Supercheese> This is true
19:58:38  <Supercheese> although aren't some of the buildings...?
19:58:47  <Supercheese> I forget, haven't played toyland in ages
19:59:07  <EndymionM> Someone should build a whole nut->nutcracker industry chain for Toyland.
19:59:12  <Eddi|zuHause> no idea. i couldn't bear toyland for more than 5 minutes
19:59:25  <Supercheese> I loved toyland as a lad
19:59:34  <frosch123> there is only candyfloss, toffee and sugar
19:59:44  <Supercheese> It's a kids' place to be certain
20:00:10  <EndymionM> Eddi|zuHause: Okay, I just tried it.  Better, but still slow.  Should I try it with zBase? (Currently I'm running OpenGFX)
20:00:12  <Eddi|zuHause> there was no toyland when i was a lad. we had to build rails uphill. both ways.
20:00:26  <Supercheese> It reminded me muchly of the board game "Candyland", which I also enjoyed
20:00:28  <maddy_> speaking of cargoes, whoever maintains opengfx+ industries, I would love to have an option to transport Coal to Steel Mills
20:01:09  <Eddi|zuHause> EndymionM: switching to zbase will just switch to 32bpp automatically, but with this switch you forced it anyway, so won't make a difference
20:02:23  <EndymionM> Okay, figured it'd be better to ask.  So at the moment, I just have to set my resolution lower, fullscreen, and pray, basically?
20:05:50  <maddy_> might try the linux upgrade tho
20:07:17  <EndymionM> maddy_: I might.  But I might just try setting up a VM with XP and 1.75 Gb RAM, and set up OpenTTD Portable on there :-P
20:07:47  <EndymionM> (That's the best "in-between" step I can see hee.
20:07:51  <EndymionM> *here)
20:08:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see that working very well
20:08:50  <maddy_> I don't have much experience with VM's, but generally when you run stuff in a virtual machine things will be slower, not faster
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20:09:01  <andythenorth> ha ha
20:09:05  <andythenorth> just found a thing
20:09:30  <andythenorth> sometimes realism provides ideas that unrealism might not have dreamed of
20:09:47  <EndymionM> ...Okay?
20:10:20  <planetmaker> don't you generally do that? :P
20:11:16  <andythenorth> hm
20:11:18  <andythenorth> oh yes :)
20:11:43  <EndymionM> So what thing did you find anyway?  Addams, Ben Grimm, The Thing, what?
20:12:17  <andythenorth> livestock tram
20:13:26  <planetmaker> hm. Doesn't HEQS have livestock trams?
20:14:00  <EndymionM> andythenorth: That's cool.
20:14:18  <andythenorth> planetmaker: it does, but not electric tramcars like that
20:14:27  <planetmaker> ah :)
20:14:33  <planetmaker> time for HEQS 1.6 :P
20:18:50  <Zuu> If someone makes a nut => nutcracker industry chain, there need to be a specialized GS for it too. (GS use .nut as file extension for source code files)
20:21:06  <EndymionM> LOL.
20:21:06  <Eddi|zuHause> it will be called "cracker.nut"?
20:21:08  <planetmaker> haha :)
20:21:08  <Supercheese> heh
20:21:26  <Supercheese> have to use NUTS grf as well
20:21:26  <planetmaker> sounds like an Easter Egg :P
20:21:33  <Supercheese> set the dependency
20:21:53  <Supercheese> are there any actual nuts in NUTS?
20:22:21  <Eddi|zuHause> no, just the creator of it is ... :p
20:23:23  <planetmaker> I can swear I've seen more nuts here
20:23:31  <andythenorth> hmm
20:23:34  <andythenorth>
20:23:41  <andythenorth> will it fit in tunnels? :P
20:23:48  <EndymionM> No, you just end up starting a game with EGRVTS and NUTS in 1900, and you go 'aww, nuts', when you see there are no trains.
20:24:25  <planetmaker> it doesn't fit my land line, andythenorth... trying to connect for eternity
20:24:41  <Eddi|zuHause> same here
20:24:50  <planetmaker> ah... now
20:25:01  <planetmaker> you'll need two-storey tunnels
20:25:12  <planetmaker> but ISR has those 'vehicles'
20:27:26  * planetmaker checks whether translation commit to road-hog worked
20:27:59  <planetmaker> sweet
20:31:00  <andythenorth> driverless container handlers?
20:32:16  <planetmaker> :)
20:35:38  <Supercheese> That would present a problem, for when any cargo road vehicle gets hit by a train, the game says "Driver dies"... but if it's a driverless vehicle...
20:36:09  <andythenorth> ho
20:36:17  <andythenorth> doublestack RVs :o
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20:38:52  <planetmaker> MJP, towns are placed and named prior to industry generation
20:39:13  <planetmaker> generating the town name(s) can take different amount of random calls - depending on the town name set used
20:39:38  <planetmaker> Thus the random numbers industry generation gets is different (as already towns are placed differently)
20:39:46  <planetmaker> ^@ FS#5840
20:43:41  <planetmaker> MJP: e.g. see the bottom of The numbers in the town_names(...) call indicate a probability for that branch to be taken
20:48:32  <EndymionM> Alright, I gotta run.  See y'all.
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21:46:31  <andythenorth> so containers on an MTS thing
21:47:06  <andythenorth> or a sprinter carrier?
21:48:06  <andythenorth>
21:48:34  <frosch123> how about complementing the early horse things in egrvts with some elephants in heqs?
21:49:23  <frosch123> cargo elephants would fit heart of darkness, wouldn't they?
21:49:50  <Alberth> they would
21:49:59  <DorpsGek> Commit by zuu :: r26424 /extra/musa ( (2014-03-23 21:49:53 UTC)
21:50:00  <DorpsGek> [musa] -Fix (rbegin): Validate that the package name is not already in use by someone else
21:50:39  <frosch123> hmm, more reverse iterators :p
21:51:10  <Alberth> andy, their purpose is different, the former is about transport on the road, the latter is about loading/unloading a container
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21:54:43  <andythenorth> Alberth: I am somewhat expanding definition of road ;)
21:55:12  <Alberth> :)
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21:56:53  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26425 trunk/src/sound_type.h (2014-03-23 21:56:48 UTC)
21:56:54  <DorpsGek> -Doc: SoundFx enum
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22:10:44  <Supercheese> Cargo elephants?
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22:23:27  <MJP> planetmaker: FS#5840 addresses 3 issues: towns, rivers (fixed by r26309) and long freeze at the end (I saw that with debug binaries, corresponding to the cache clean-up (not occurring anymore since r26346)). My problem was when I wanted a lot of industries, few towns (or more than the name generator can provide) and "allow multiple similar industries per town = Off": the loop in PlaceIndustry() goes to the end and that causes the difference of map generation times.
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23:48:35  <Wolf01> 'night
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