Log for #openttd on 5th April 2014:
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00:48:13  <Hazzard> !players
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00:48:29  <Hazzard> lol
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05:08:15  <supermop> 8/8 is 32 pixels a normal zoom, right?
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06:09:11  <andythenorth> bon
06:09:12  <andythenorth> jour
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06:23:07  <supermop> hi andy
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06:46:11  <andythenorth> so what shall we do today? o_O
06:47:44  <rubidium> feeding the children?
06:48:15  <supermop> i am drawing a tram in pixel tool
06:53:43  <andythenorth> rubidium: feeding the children now
06:54:15  <V453000> FEED THEM FOR THE WHOLE DAY
06:54:16  <V453000> =D
06:57:31  <andythenorth> V453000: what shall I feed them to?
06:57:34  <andythenorth> wolves?
06:57:38  <andythenorth> snakes?
06:57:41  <V453000> everything you can find
06:57:43  <V453000> everything
06:57:54  <andythenorth> also
06:58:02  <andythenorth> random running and buy costs?
06:58:10  <andythenorth> because I don’t care
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07:05:49  <V453000> -> make them low for most fun
07:06:17  <andythenorth> here’s how I used to do it
07:06:54  <andythenorth> try and balance against other vehicle sets, try and use buy price as reason to buy vehicle x instead of y, but also run cost as a reason to buy vehicle z instead of x
07:07:12  <andythenorth> then also use price to try and encourage player to choose between transport types
07:07:20  <andythenorth> blah blah blah blah blah boring
07:07:39  <andythenorth> it’s like making a fricking spreadsheet every time you buy a vehicle
07:08:11  <andythenorth> average earnings per mile, cost amortised over vehicle lifetime, factoring in speed, delays, loading speed, acceleration omfg
07:08:22  <andythenorth> and that’s with breakdowns *off* :(
07:08:41  <andythenorth> soooo boring
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07:19:14  <supermop> lets just play with an AI who builds all the stuff, and we can be the accountants
07:23:04  <andythenorth> lets
07:29:52  <V453000> andythenorth: I just looked at my earlies vehicle, gave it like 8 cost multiplier, and then stepped it out, e.g. 2nd vehicle gets 9, third 10, ...
07:30:00  <V453000> stays cheap and is fun
07:30:05  <V453000> this game isnt about money.
07:30:06  <andythenorth> wfm
07:31:57  <supermop> jalapeno tequila palomas here
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07:32:19  <supermop> really should just drink coctails instead of playing the game
07:33:19  <ZirconiumX> supermop: what about children under the age of 18?
07:34:10  <supermop> or those under 21 in the us
07:35:27  <planetmaker> moin
07:36:39  <andythenorth> moin planetmaker
07:37:22  <ZirconiumX> Hi planetmaker
07:50:25  <andythenorth> V453000: did you try and balance against other sets at all?
07:50:29  <andythenorth> or just ignored?
08:05:26  <planetmaker> take a guess, andythenorth :)
08:08:38  <ZirconiumX> Roughly how long is a game day in fast forward?
08:09:26  <planetmaker> <2.2s
08:09:39  <planetmaker> actually. That's even not true
08:10:01  <planetmaker> It's as long as it takes. Thus somewhere between no time and eons
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08:10:20  <ZirconiumX> I think FF is causing cargodist some headaches
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08:12:07  <planetmaker> how would it do that?
08:12:28  <planetmaker> it simply might be that your machine is too slow to actually see an effect when using FF
08:12:56  <ZirconiumX> AMD FX-6300 at 4GHz. Not very slow.
08:13:17  <ZirconiumX> The cursor lags a lot in FF.
08:13:40  <ZirconiumX> It's fine in normal speed, but in FF is seriously lags
08:15:20  <supermop> pub, later
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08:15:28  <ZirconiumX> Bye
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08:19:02  <ZirconiumX> The reason I mention cargodist is that when I set cargodist's distribution mode for all cargoes from manual to asymmetric and fast forward, the game doubles its lag.
08:19:17  <planetmaker> of course
08:19:31  <planetmaker> it enables a lot of heavy computation
08:20:05  <planetmaker> lag in FF is totally irrelevant: it means: go as fast as possible on your machine, skipping all wait for input, not trying to keep any specific pace
08:20:19  <planetmaker> and if you enable more computation, it has to get worse
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08:21:06  <ZirconiumX> I suppose that's why there is no FF in multiplayer - you'd get desyncs (one of my freidns was complaining abou the lack of FF in multiplayer)
08:21:19  <ZirconiumX> *friends
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08:28:59  <Flygon> A lot of my games don't even have FF being usable anyway
08:29:05  <Flygon> Due to the game struggling at normal speed
08:29:09  <Flygon> Old PC
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08:33:56  <ZirconiumX> OpenTTD on Android - fast forward has zero effect on my phone.
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08:52:26  <SkeedR> Morning folk
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08:55:43  <ZirconiumX> Hi SKeedR
08:55:56  <SKeedR> Hello
08:57:07  <ZirconiumX> OpenTTD - the best get rich quick scheme there is. (Apart from Ctrl-Alt-C)
08:57:58  <SKeedR> I was wondering if there's any way to get OpenTTD to use more CPU
08:58:05  <ZirconiumX> Cargodist
08:58:16  <SKeedR> 4096^2 map?
08:58:57  <ZirconiumX> 4096^2 map, high industries, high towns, loads of vehicles moving about, maybe some train logic too, with Cargodist on max settings.
08:59:12  <ZirconiumX> Then have the entire thing on fast forward
08:59:43  <SKeedR> But pressing fastforward doesn't have any noticeable effect on game speed
09:00:43  <planetmaker> hehe. Then you should not use such big map
09:00:53  <SKeedR> What I mean is, it only seems to use 25% CPU across four cores. I'm assuming in that case that it's not multi-threaded
09:01:21  <rubidium> not that discussion AGAIN
09:01:27  <SKeedR> :p
09:01:40  <planetmaker> look at and search for it, SKeedR
09:01:41  <rubidium> it is multithreaded as far as it reasonably can be
09:01:46  <planetmaker> it has all the answers ^
09:01:55  <SKeedR> Perhaps I just need a better CPU
09:01:57  <planetmaker> and explanations as to why and how
09:03:11  <SKeedR> I'll have to test it on my Xeons once I get the server running
09:03:22  <ZirconiumX> Be thankful that OpenTTD is so lightweight.
09:03:27  <rubidium> if you enable autosave, and for some reason your CPU is incredibly slow at compressing, and your CPU is incredibly slow at playing music, and your CPU takes a huge amount of cycles to push pixels to the GPU, then you'll use 100% of your four cores
09:03:53  <planetmaker> don't forget cargodist overlays
09:04:07  <ZirconiumX> Laugh at the BF4 players who struggle to get 30 FPS, while we can cruise away at 60 FPS on an AMD Athlon X2.
09:04:53  <rubidium> hmm... good point... with a "well" designed network and the appropriate configuration settings you might be able to reach 100% on 32+ cores
09:05:10  <SKeedR> I think I'll have to shelve this game until I can get better performance for it :/
09:05:44  <ZirconiumX> rubidium - make sure to have a software synthesizer like fluidsynth with everything to the max and 128 kHz sample rate with floating-point numbers.
09:06:07  <rubidium> unless... maybe the 25% CPU is because OpenTTD is mostly waiting in getting the pixels to the GPU
09:06:13  <ZirconiumX> SKeedR - you have just commited an act of treason.
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09:06:45  <ZirconiumX> OpenTTD is using 6.6% CPU on a moderately complex network.
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09:06:53  <ZirconiumX> For me
09:06:54  <rubidium> if that doesn't happen fast enough, then OpenTTD internally is just idling but waiting for the pixels to be pushed causing 100% CPU on one core
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09:07:48  * rubidium reached a 25-50% improvement in some cases when putting the pixel pushing into a separate thread
09:08:08  <Wolf01> hello
09:08:15  <ZirconiumX> Hi Wolf01
09:08:53  <SKeedR> Imma see what a 4096*1024 is like
09:09:13  <ZirconiumX> That won't be any faster
09:09:17  <ZirconiumX> That'll be slower
09:09:17  <planetmaker> SKeedR, my usual maps are 512^2
09:09:34  <SKeedR> How do you come to that ZirconiumX ?
09:09:40  <Flygon> There's one issue with 4096^2 map
09:09:48  <Flygon> The 5000 cap on road vehicles per company
09:09:55  <planetmaker> :)
09:10:08  <Flygon> And by extension, the 16-bit integer cap for entire games across all companies
09:10:23  <ZirconiumX> Because OpenTTD will have more town and industries to sort through.
09:10:41  <ZirconiumX> If you want a fast game, try 256^2.
09:10:43  <Wolf01> I play usually on 256^2
09:11:09  <rubidium> which 16 bit cap?
09:11:17  <Wolf01> but not for speed, just because I've nothing too big to do :D
09:11:26  <SKeedR> Seems fast enough on 4096*1024
09:11:50  <rubidium> isn't the vehicle number per company per vehicle type?
09:11:54  <planetmaker> SKeedR, the game will get more heavy if you start playing and developing it
09:11:57  <Flygon> Also what'd be really neat, is if we made a USA map from Frontier times (eg. spawning towns date accurate), on a 16384^2 map, get the appropriate sets made, and have a group of 256 people split across 16 companies in individual rooms with networked computers having cargodist and infrastructure sharing enabled
09:12:13  <Flygon> And see the natural evolution of a transportation network O_O
09:12:20  <Flygon> We'd need some damned good PCs though... and a good network
09:12:32  <planetmaker> we'd need a new game ;)
09:12:34  <Flygon> And uncapping of the vehicle limits
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09:12:38  <Flygon> Nah, we don't need a new game
09:12:55  <Flygon> Just proper infrastructure sharing, uncapping of the map sizes, and a lot of RAM and CPU :B
09:13:02  <Flygon> ...and a limit on boats
09:13:09  <ZirconiumX> Yeah, OpenTTD would be capable of doing that. For a while.
09:13:58  <rubidium> remove the caps?
09:14:12  <SKeedR> FIRS industry placement seems rather awful lately. I'm sure it was better before
09:14:25  <rubidium> lowering the aircraft cap to 1280 is even realistic
09:14:56  * ZirconiumX dreams of the days of a 65535^2 map. Wouldn't happen on modern computers
09:16:55  <rubidium> for train 15k might be more "realistic" though ;)
09:18:54  <rubidium> and... why do I keep procrastinating?!?
09:19:33  <planetmaker> it's weekend, rubidium :)
09:20:26  <rubidium> yeah, but getting groceries at the last minute kinda sucks in this case
09:20:40  <rubidium> ... like ... it's going to rain
09:21:52  <frosch123> it's already raining
09:21:56  <frosch123> just started
09:22:14  <Wolf01> it's raining here too
09:22:33  <frosch123> so, it's quite a good move to go shopping way later :p
09:22:46  <ZirconiumX> Still dry here, but it's threatening to rain
09:23:00  <frosch123> global climate :p
09:24:13  <ZirconiumX> planetmaker - sorry, I was wrong. Running OpenTTD on FF makes *X* lag, not OpenTTD.
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09:26:54  <ZirconiumX> Disabling composition solves the lag, though OpenTTD is now using 90% of one CPU core
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10:23:42  <Flygon> What'd be neat is
10:23:57  <Flygon> Is a feature to progressively release vehicles from depots
10:24:05  <Flygon> Like ships and trams
10:24:08  <Flygon> To prevent clumping
10:24:58  <planetmaker> search for self-regulating networks
10:25:17  <Flygon> I cbf effort :B
10:25:23  <planetmaker> all vehicles at once is not possible anyway ;)
10:25:25  <Flygon> But, fiine, you've made your point x3
10:25:33  <Flygon> It is with Ships
10:25:43  <Flygon> Just click that tiny little Green button in the ship depot
10:25:51  <Flygon> Cue every ship moving at once
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10:35:09  <Flygon> Is it normal for OTTD to randomly stall then unstall?
10:35:36  <LordAro> probably not
10:36:05  <Flygon> I've dun guud then
10:36:07  <Flygon> O_o
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10:44:39  <peter1138> Can happen with millions of ships with awkward routes.
10:47:08  <Flygon> Hm
10:47:11  <Flygon> Alright
10:47:17  <Flygon> This's only going to get worse then
10:47:30  <Flygon> Because I just built over 150 Hoverboats whizzing along Thames
10:47:46  <talebowl> Hi, I've got a question about the NetworkContent gui code. I'm a bit new to C++, and I don't really understand how Stringfilter (bool*) matches GUIList's F (char*). Sure, they're both pointers, so the size would be the same, but the referencing types are different? (Am I approaching this with too much of an OOP-mindset? (My background is in Java/C#))
10:47:52  <talebowl> Additionally, as GUIList doesn't actually use the F itself, but just passes it around, I'd suppose that, if I wanted to create a second filtering, I'd be fine creating a function that mimicks the header and black-box behaviour of the other FilterFunction (in this case NetworkContentListWindow::TagNameFilter). (I suppose that isn't a very clean approach, so for an actual forum patch, it wouldn't be very viable, but as a temporary impl
10:47:52  <talebowl> ementation, it'd be good enough).
10:51:19  <Flygon> I wonder if intentionally building lots of boats on random MP servers will get me kicked out...
10:51:33  <Flygon> We determined the max we can launch at one on my net connection is around 250 in a game
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11:00:02  <LordAro> talebowl, i don't know the details of your question, but you may be approaching it with too much of a OOP mindset - remember that OTTD started out in C and still looks quite a lot like C in places
11:01:59  <andythenorth> SKeedR: better before what?
11:02:16  <SKeedR> I'm not sure. It seems to have changed at some point though.
11:02:47  <andythenorth> that’s useful
11:02:48  <andythenorth> thanks
11:02:54  <andythenorth> I’ll definitely look into it
11:03:07  <SKeedR> Sorry, I'll see if I can do some testing and let you know what I find
11:05:09  * andythenorth Horses
11:05:21  <andythenorth> would this be a box van, open wagon, or flat car?
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11:05:47  <andythenorth> obviously it’s actually a bulkhead flat with tarpaulin cover, but I don’t have a class for that :P
11:08:05  * andythenorth votes box van
11:17:53  <supermop> replying to threads with no other replies after several beers leads to even more rambling and inchoate messages than i usually leave
11:18:20  <supermop> seems functionally equivalent to a boxcar anyway andythenorth
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11:26:48  <zydeco> text input with dead keys is kind of broken on osx
11:27:18  <andythenorth> +1
11:28:37  <zydeco> it sometimes crashes when you delete input from a dead key that hasn't been added to a character yet
11:29:12  <zydeco> I'm looking into it, but lldb on the command line is confusing
11:30:51  <peter1138> Dead keys :S
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11:54:37  <peter1138> Does anything use stereo audio samples in (O)TTD?
11:56:41  <michi_cc> NewGRFs (if they can)?
11:57:41  <peter1138> Hmm, reading our mixer, I don't think it's supported.
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12:21:12  <rubidium> talebowl: GUIList defines const char* as default type for F, the NetworkContentListWindow has an instantiation where F = StringFilter &
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12:22:09  <rubidium> see it as if it were a kind of Java generics, but with different capabilities due to the different ways the code is compiled
12:23:00  <rubidium> though this trick isn't possible with Java generics
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12:26:22  <talebowl> rubidium: Ok, that clears some things up. Thanks :)
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12:32:06  <frosch123> michi_cc: peter1138: what would be the point of stereo?
12:32:15  <frosch123> stuff is panned according to position on the screen
12:32:51  * andythenorth is hoping for 5:1
12:33:10  <frosch123> play freerct
12:33:36  <michi_cc> frosch123: No idea, but if NewGRFs could supply stereo, somebody would still do it...
12:33:47  <andythenorth> also, FIRS could use some industry sounds
12:33:53  <andythenorth> who likes foley, and has Audacity?
12:35:19  <juzza1> interesting Wikipedia article
12:35:26  <juzza1> "A pair of gloves sounds like bird wings flapping"
12:36:35  <planetmaker> I was at a live performance of an audio drama last week. They had the person who created the sounds also live on stage
12:36:42  <planetmaker> That was really interesting to see
12:41:00  <andythenorth> smashing an apple is a good kill-the-monster noise
12:41:45  * andythenorth has made quite a lot of effects before
12:42:02  <andythenorth> I used to have a nice tone synth app for it as well as wave editor
12:42:57  * andythenorth back to life, back to reality
12:43:06  <planetmaker> :)
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13:02:49  <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause:
13:29:16  <LordAro> frosch123, freerct has 5.1 sound? news to me :p
13:29:36  <frosch123> but it would make more sense than in ottd :)
13:30:02  <LordAro> would it? :L
13:33:42  <LordAro> (Alberth has been busy moving house, so will continue to be afk for the next weekish)
13:34:04  <frosch123> i know :p
13:34:43  <LordAro> just checking :p
13:40:32  <peter1138> frosch123, yes, I was hoping it wasn't, actually :)
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13:50:24  <andythenorth> does cargo rot at transfer stations?
13:54:29  <LordAro> iirc, yes
13:54:42  <LordAro> not as fast as normal though
13:54:58  <frosch123> rotting depends only on the cargo rating
13:55:11  <frosch123> if there is a rating and it is lower than 25% or so, it rots
13:55:16  <frosch123> if there is no rating, you are lucky
13:57:27  <planetmaker> hm. So you can pile infinite amounts as long as you don't start picking up that cargo?
13:58:05  <frosch123> i am not sure, iirc it got even broken at some point
13:58:19  <frosch123> so it only gets a rating if stuff is actually deliverd from industry, not just transfered
13:58:26  <frosch123> no idea whether that was fixed
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13:58:45  <Dan9550> hey
14:00:03  <LordAro> o/
14:00:13  <Dan9550> Could someone tell me why the music doesn't work on Ubuntu 13.10 even when OpenMSX and timidity is installed?
14:02:10  <peter1138> Cos the music smells.
14:02:32  <Dan9550> :( but i can't play without the music
14:02:49  <LordAro> this was discussed yesterday
14:02:59  <LordAro> something to do with pulseaudio, iirc
14:03:04  <LordAro> @logs
14:03:04  <DorpsGek> LordAro:
14:03:10  <andythenorth> hmm, so matching ‘container’ capacity across trains / ships / trucks isn’t stupid
14:03:25  <Dan9550> ahh, pulse... anyone find a workaround?
14:04:46  <planetmaker> that actually makes sense, yes, andythenorth
14:05:05  <planetmaker> having ships come in sizes which are multiple of 'standard trains'
14:05:11  <planetmaker> (e.g. 5-tile or so)
14:05:28  <peter1138> Is there a global game tick counter?
14:05:37  <peter1138> There's _tick_counter which is only 16 bit... seems low.
14:06:11  <LordAro> Dan9550, they did
14:06:13  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: afair, only the day counter is "high"
14:06:18  <LordAro> if my browser would work, i'd find it for you
14:07:01  <peter1138> Hmm, _realtime_ticks might be what I want.
14:07:08  <Dan9550> oh so i got it to work by manuall starting a timitidy server, music doesn't autoplay on the menu like it used tot though
14:07:11  <peter1138> That goes up when it's paused, yes?
14:07:23  <Eddi|zuHause> never seen that before
14:07:24  <frosch123> i think so
14:07:35  <LordAro> Dan9550,
14:08:16  <LordAro> Dan9550, it might be paused ingame (you can't access it from the main menu)
14:09:53  <peter1138> Which is in debug.h... uh...
14:10:21  <peter1138> Why is it in debug? :S
14:10:54  <Dan9550> LordAro thanks
14:12:41  <planetmaker> I wonder whether LordAro want to put that in the wiki or in the FAQ :P
14:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: maybe you should really use (date/(dayelength*(1<<16)))*(1<<16)+ticks
14:13:30  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: we should have put the jukebox on the main menu like 5 years ago
14:14:26  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, that's right
14:14:35  <planetmaker> do you have a patch? :D
14:14:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't do GUI :p
14:15:14  <planetmaker> :)
14:15:35  <frosch123> hmm, what did i miss?
14:15:47  <frosch123> when was the jukebox on the main menu?
14:15:50  <planetmaker> never
14:15:51  <LordAro> planetmaker, nah :p
14:15:59  <LordAro> you can do that ;)
14:17:57  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, I don't want the game date.
14:18:16  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: so what do you want?
14:18:22  <peter1138> Real... time...
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14:29:01  <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26445 trunk/src/linkgraph/linkgraph_gui.cpp (2014-04-05 14:28:55 UTC)
14:29:02  <DorpsGek> -Change [FS#5961]: Draw links to match _settings_game.vehicle.road_side (M3Henry)
14:37:09  <peter1138> ,.......requestedDesc.mFramesPerPacket = 1;
14:37:13  <peter1138> Really?
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15:07:37  * peter1138 blinks at SDL. I request 2048 samples per period and it gives me half.
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15:10:56  <Phreeze> gday
15:11:09  <planetmaker> o/
15:20:03  <Phreeze> andythenorth : just saying that your mum tries to run to the left in Super Mario
15:20:31  <andythenorth> your mum already told me that
15:20:35  <andythenorth> whispered in my ear
15:21:09  <Phreeze> that one was weak
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15:22:15  <andythenorth> it’s a family channel
15:22:18  <andythenorth> with logs
15:22:27  <Phreeze> lol
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16:41:32  <glx> hello
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16:56:23  <mg_> i have some newgrfs, when i open 'check online content' window, it does its stuff and upgrades button becomes active. so i click it, it downloads upgrades, but all of them are previous versions of newgrfs i already have. for example, i have OpenGFX_Trees-0.8.0 and upgrade is OpenGFX_Trees-0.2.2 and so on. how does that work?
16:57:31  <planetmaker> maybe you also update some scenarios which use old versions?
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16:58:17  <mg_> i don't have any other addons besides newgrfs
16:58:33  <planetmaker> you never downloaded a scenario?
16:58:44  <mg_> no, i didn't
16:58:52  <mg_> only newgrfs
17:00:32  <planetmaker> not sure I can follow / reproduce what you describe
17:01:36  <planetmaker> can you document that by screenshots?
17:01:52  <planetmaker> and / or file listings of the content_download and newgrf dirs?
17:02:24  <planetmaker> I know that that will be a pain to do :( But I've no clue
17:02:30  <planetmaker> and I don't see it happening
17:03:14  <mg_> sure, i can do that
17:04:11  <planetmaker> you didn't access the download content when trying to load a specific savegame, no?
17:07:33  <mg_> no. i didnt
17:07:52  <mg_> one minute, i will document it with screenshots :)
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17:34:55  <mg_> planetmaker:   basically the order is: i installed 1.4, never played previous versions. downloaded some newgrfs, i didn't start a new game yet, opened content download and there are upgrades available. so i upgrade and it downloads previous versions although they are not visible in installed newgrfs window in openttd (only most recent version is visible)
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17:45:22  <rubidium> some NewGRFs have dependencies on other NewGRFs. That dependency is for a specific version
17:45:31  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26446 /trunk/src/lang (gaelic.txt hungarian.txt) (2014-04-05 17:45:22 UTC)
17:45:32  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:33  <DorpsGek> hungarian - 1 changes by Brumi
17:45:34  <DorpsGek> gaelic - 2 changes by GunChleoc
17:46:17  <planetmaker> newgrfs depending on other newgrfs most often is stupid. I'm suprised any NewGRF depends on opengfx+trees
17:46:23  <planetmaker> it's known for the av8 sets...
17:46:46  <mg_> oh ok, so it downloads previous versions evenif newer is available ?
17:47:26  <planetmaker> one can only set dependency to a specific version
17:48:15  <mg_> i see
17:48:25  <mg_> ok then :)
17:48:48  <planetmaker> thank you though, too :)
17:48:52  <mg_> false alarm :P
17:49:13  <planetmaker> I'm truely suprised by pure newgrf cross-dependencies set, tbh
17:49:47  <planetmaker> I know can think of one, where I believe that both are on bananas
17:51:06  <planetmaker> but I see that you use the one programme which I always install first, if I have to install a windows: total commander ;)
17:51:12  <mg_> so i gave you something to think about ;)
17:51:20  <planetmaker> ok, 2nd. after firefox
17:51:36  <mg_> yea. i cannot function without tc on windows :)
17:52:00  <planetmaker> you should convert to linux ;)
17:52:34  <planetmaker> tc is the compromise which lets me work on windows, though
17:53:36  <mg_> i've been using linux for 10 years or so. at home and work. i switched to windows couple years ago :)
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17:55:01  <mg_> maybe even more than 10y
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18:01:41  <planetmaker> vice versa here ;)
18:04:17  <LordAro> mg_, you poor person
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18:14:42  <Supercheese> is there drag & drop placement for newobjects yet?
18:16:41  <planetmaker> no
18:16:44  <planetmaker> afaik
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20:08:27  <frosch123> i'm out of mugs!
20:09:43  <Supercheese> You should get yourself mugged, then ;)
20:10:36  <frosch123> no, i should rather mug a mug shop
20:10:51  <frosch123> or rather, their stock
20:10:56  <Supercheese> That would work too
20:11:09  <Supercheese> avoid the police though, or you'll end up with a mug shot
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20:36:47  * Zuu is having GS ideas
20:37:06  <frosch123> andy is not here, they are safe to discuss :)
20:37:23  <Zuu> Its the same basic ideas that I've been thinking about the last year or so. :-)
20:37:42  <Zuu> Eg. how to bring the tickets in ticket to ride into OpenTTD in some form.
20:41:26  <Zuu> I first was thinking about making a stand alone GS, but now I'm more thinking about extending NoCarGoal so that there is a config option on how sources/targets are activated. Current NoCarGoal would get all towns activated at start. A new mode could then be that you can draw 5 ticket cards and have to pick at least two Twon <-> Town relations. Only cargo from (houses or industries) between these two tows will count towards the medal goal. There will need to be
20:41:26  <Zuu>  some bookkeeping and some punnishment if you do not suceed to connect a ticket by the end of the game.
20:42:44  <Zuu> Or you must complete the current tickets before you can get new ones, which you will likely want to do in order for having more transport to count towards the medal goals.
20:43:37  <frosch123> hmm, are you sure you can reach the nocargoal if you are only allowed to use certain routes
20:44:12  <Zuu> It will be harder to reach those goals, so if a such game you will need to lower that goal.
20:44:38  <frosch123> i mean you do not have quite control over how many stuff there will be to transport, would there?
20:45:11  <frosch123> would it get lucky depending on the picks?
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20:45:50  <Zuu> No, but that is already true that two random NoCarGoal games can have different difficulty. Though at the moment the difficulty level is equal for all companies.
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20:48:02  <Zuu> But yes, that is an issue with the whole tickets idea, especially if each company get unique tickets, then it may be more out of luck what picks you get compared to your competitors.
20:50:14  <Zuu> Another problem is that the activated zones will be all houses + industries beloning to a town, and especially the industries may be a bit unclear for some users what town an industry belongs to.
20:50:54  <frosch123> oh, you want to attach it to towns?
20:50:59  <frosch123> i thought specific industries
20:51:14  <Zuu> NoCarGoal count delivery of all cargo related to towns.
20:51:19  <frosch123> industries can be quite far away from towns
20:52:17  <frosch123> in sv i scan for industries, and observe each by their own
20:52:37  <Zuu> Its quite a lot easier to just count all cargo types via towns than figuring out what cargos that can/should be counted on industries and what to count via towns and be sure to not miss out anything or count anything twice.
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20:55:52  <Zuu> Oh, and I just realized that GS doesn't know in what relation you transport, only amount in/out from town/industry.
20:56:16  <Zuu> (have known this before, but forgot about this now)
20:57:46  <frosch123> hmm, true
20:58:55  <Zuu> So it will probably end up with some sort of contract/mini-game to enable sources/sinks. rather than relations. Or a stand alone GS only focused on this.
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21:13:37  <frosch123> i wonder whether we should abuse cargodist for gs purposes
21:13:56  <peter1138> I miss running sounds :S
21:13:56  <frosch123> if we expose the "planned flow", gs can easily figure out a lot about cargo flows
21:14:09  <frosch123> if the gs forces cargodist to be active
21:16:16  <frosch123> hmm, or would link capacity be more useful?
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21:22:44  <Zuu> From GS perspective, having to work with stations is in my view mostly an unwanted complexity. But if you want ot analyze cargodist stats you'll end up with that path.
21:23:45  <frosch123> well, i have been wondering how to track which vehicles and stations are involved in transport for a while :)
21:24:09  <frosch123> i want a gs where you score for transfering stuff between different vehicle types
21:24:16  <frosch123> and punish waiting cargo
21:24:25  <frosch123> the latter is possible, the former not quite
21:24:34  <frosch123> but the linkgraph does essentially do the former
21:25:36  <Zuu> GS now know from where waiting cargo came from, but that is mostly just an effect of that AIs now got this information and GS got it too if anyone find use for it.
21:26:01  <frosch123> yeah, but that only works for waiting cargo
21:26:09  <Zuu> exactly
21:26:11  <frosch123> it would at least need the same for cargo inside a vehicle
21:26:15  <peter1138> Hmm, so I made audio better, but...
21:26:22  <peter1138> Needs changes to... the video drivers.
21:26:25  <frosch123> but, the linkgraph would be even better, since yuo cannot cheat it
21:27:28  <frosch123> peter1138: can you loop sound effects?
21:27:30  <Zuu> I like your idea to score usage of different transport modes.
21:28:36  <frosch123> i dream about a nocargoal where only cargo scores that has been transfered at least 10 times, between at least 3 types of transport :p
21:29:08  <Zuu> :-)
21:29:11  <peter1138> No, that requires a spec change.
21:29:28  <peter1138> And... some way to stop it, heh.
21:29:40  <peter1138> But at least sounds are appropriately timed now.
21:30:01  <frosch123> have they not been before?
21:30:04  <peter1138> No.
21:30:11  <peter1138> It's always been "play as soon as possible"
21:30:45  <peter1138> Well, not really.
21:30:52  <peter1138> It's always been "play at the start of the next cycle"
21:31:18  <peter1138> Basically means that different buffer sizes produces different audio.
21:32:22  <frosch123> so, you now add sounds to a busy buffer, which is already playing?
21:32:27  <frosch123> does that even work?
21:32:36  <frosch123> or did you make the buffer smaller? :p
21:32:43  <peter1138> No, that's not possible.
21:33:05  <peter1138> Well, it is in certain cases when you can an audio API designed for it, which we don't.
21:33:45  <frosch123> last time i did sound was in dos, with dma transfer :p
21:34:08  <peter1138> Yeah, feel free to write to the DMA buffer whereever, in that case :D
21:34:46  <frosch123> but then i started muting games and listen to music instead
21:38:57  <peter1138> Anyway, as we can't go back in time (yet), the solution is to add timing to the sound events, and delay playback.
21:40:04  <frosch123> when is that useful?
21:40:19  <peter1138> 1) when you have a large buffer
21:40:29  <peter1138> 2) when you have running sounds playing
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21:40:56  <ZirconiumX> Hi all
21:41:29  <Zuu> Hello ZirconiumX
21:41:41  <ZirconiumX> Hi Zuu
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23:28:34  <Wolf01> 'night
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