Log for #openttd on 9th April 2014:
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00:29:59  <supermop> i love playing small maps
00:30:21  <supermop> lots of fun on 64x128 right now with 2ccnml nightly
00:30:41  <supermop> no overhead emus though
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02:41:13  <peter1138> Hmm, could just commit what I have and let MJP sort out the rest ;)
02:56:22  <Supercheese> doooo eeeet
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03:31:48  <peter1138> Heh, I just rebased code from February. 2013.
03:32:00  <peter1138> No issues... wonder if it compiles though.
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05:56:35  <maddy_> g'morning everyone
06:14:08  <Supercheese> good evening
06:16:34  <supermop> good afternoon
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06:51:02  <NGC3982> Morning.
07:00:19  <Supercheese> 'night
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07:19:02  * NGC3982 slappar.
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08:51:52  * NGC3982 is home alone and the IRC is empty. :(
08:52:28  <peter1138> No it's not.
08:52:53  <V453000> it is.
08:53:23  <planetmaker> enjoying the sound of silence ;)
08:53:50  <NGC3982> :(.
08:54:09  * Taede watches the tumbleweed flee
08:54:13  <peter1138> If the next signal was red then the current one would be yellow and the train would have to slow down. feel that this would be more realistic.
08:54:16  <peter1138> There is a patch for implementing yellow color in signals in the link
08:54:17  <peter1138> Yeah!
08:54:20  <peter1138>
08:54:30  <peter1138> A patch from nearly 10 years ago, woo.
08:55:33  <planetmaker> there's also one in michi's collections
08:55:43  <peter1138> I might have one, I dunno...
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09:31:04  <andythenorth> Pikka: moin
09:32:05  <NGC3982> frågan Àr hur man får tag i ett pata-kabinett
09:32:15  <NGC3982> God damnit. I'm removing tmux.
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09:59:33  <Pikka> andythenorth: goodnight
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09:59:59  <Pikka> him too
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10:00:04  <V453000> :d
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10:04:16  <peter1138> :D
10:08:48  <Zsub> hey planetmaker, your tmp.diff is still online and it looks like you improved it to check for any client connections
10:09:21  <Zsub> am I reading that correctly, is the implied question :P
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10:12:31  <planetmaker> yes, you do
10:12:41  <planetmaker> but you can simply checkout trunk
10:14:20  <planetmaker> r26449
10:14:48  <Zsub> awesome :)
10:15:33  <Zsub> I have to say this is the fastest I've ever seen an OSS project implement a suggestion
10:16:18  <planetmaker> sometimes wonder do happen :P
10:16:37  <Zsub> Haha, yeah, so it seems :P
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10:17:40  <Zsub> Also, your code is extremely readable, at least the parts I have seen
10:18:06  <peter1138> haha
10:18:12  <planetmaker> Otherwise it becomes virtually unmaintainable
10:18:15  <peter1138> That's not what I found :D
10:18:43  <Xaroth|Work> wait, what, openttd code is readable?
10:18:48  <planetmaker> hardware programming never is :P
10:18:53  <Zsub> oh dear what did I say...
10:18:53  <Xaroth|Work> I had more gone for 'close-to-klingon'
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10:21:44  <Zsub> Still, I work with/maintain a bunch of bash scripts, most of them at least five years old and all of them copy-pasted from each other
10:23:05  <Zsub> Not to mention global variables all over the place, bash and version specific glitches and workarounds, so I sortof feel your pain ;)
10:23:47  <planetmaker> you should have a look at stdafx.h ;)
10:25:31  <planetmaker> or fontconfig.cpp
10:25:41  <planetmaker> is a bit version and os-specific, too ;)
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10:28:30  <Zsub> I... I need an adult...
10:30:44  <Zsub> But yeah that's pretty bad as far as endless ifdef's go, wow
10:34:03  <planetmaker> but luckily that file makes sure that we can neglect version and os differences in most other places
10:36:21  <maddy_> so a little bit of pain for a lot of gain?
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10:36:49  <supermop> hi
10:37:03  <maddy_> hi super
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10:42:56  <supermop> whats up?
10:47:45  <V453000> yes
10:48:15  <planetmaker> 'yes' was the lowest line. But sky is up ;)
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11:11:20  <andythenorth> @seen pikka
11:11:20  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 11 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <Pikka> him too
11:11:26  <andythenorth> he gone
11:11:28  <andythenorth> nvm
11:12:27  <V453000> andythenorth:
11:12:29  <V453000> (:
11:15:25  <NGC3982> I love that layout.
11:15:32  <andythenorth> V453000: it’s a lovely drawing
11:15:59  <andythenorth> V453000: it misses something
11:16:02  <andythenorth> 
11:16:06  <V453000> :d
11:16:10  <andythenorth> hang on
11:16:42  <peter1138> toys... sweets... beer. wtf?
11:17:03  <V453000> can transform to machinery-food
11:17:19  <andythenorth> V453000: too much Zool
11:17:26  <andythenorth> not enough Doom
11:17:32  <NGC3982> Zool! <3
11:17:38  <V453000> :)
11:17:50  <andythenorth> V453000: add something
11:17:52  <andythenorth> like ‘souls'
11:17:55  <andythenorth> or ‘blood'
11:17:57  <V453000> LOL
11:17:59  <andythenorth> or ‘demons'
11:18:13  <andythenorth> or ‘toxic waste'
11:18:22  <V453000> well alternate economies are an option :D
11:18:24  <andythenorth> but not that fucking green stuff everyone goes on about, whatever it is
11:18:26  <V453000> the key is the system
11:20:02  <andythenorth> I am spectacularly pleased with my buy cost calculation, and there’s no pikka to show off to :(
11:22:05  <andythenorth> I invented something that seemed reasonable
11:22:24  <andythenorth> which would make my ‘universal engine’ cost around £50k-ish on medium costs
11:22:36  <andythenorth> and it has come out at precisely £50k
11:22:42  <andythenorth> without any faking
11:25:36  <V453000> 50 sounds high as fuck
11:25:47  <V453000> mathematically speaking
11:25:56  <andythenorth> dunno
11:26:05  <andythenorth> it will make you £150k / year easy on a good pax route
11:26:31  <andythenorth> you and pikka have quite different views on costs :D
11:26:43  <V453000> idk, something aroudnd 15-20k gives fun and quick playing
11:26:47  <andythenorth> I am taking the middle of the road :P
11:26:52  <V453000> :)
11:26:59  <andythenorth> where you get run over most
11:27:41  <andythenorth> starter engines cost about £21k-£25k
11:27:51  <andythenorth> in 1870
11:27:52  <V453000> well that is reasonable
11:28:17  * andythenorth has idea
11:28:37  <V453000> == bad news?
11:30:06  <andythenorth> BAD FEATURE
11:30:34  <andythenorth> make engines before 1900 a bit cheaper, because otherwise gameplay is really boring then
11:30:37  <andythenorth> everything is slow :P
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11:33:47  <V453000> :)
11:33:56  <V453000> me has engines from year 0
11:33:59  <V453000> make them free then? :D
11:34:14  <andythenorth> I think so
11:34:18  <andythenorth> 'easy start’
11:37:12  <V453000> but the engines are equally fast as in 1900? :P
11:37:37  <andythenorth> this is problem yes
11:38:42  <andythenorth> but not enough to care
11:38:47  <andythenorth> bit of random crap is fun
11:39:43  <V453000> -> beer
11:40:08  <peter1138> Sounds boring.
11:41:12  <andythenorth> beer?
11:41:15  <andythenorth> or free engines?
11:44:29  <V453000> I am afraid peter1138 doesnt understand the importance of beer cargo
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11:56:59  <peter1138>
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12:05:01  <andythenorth> all these trains have a 40 year lifespan
12:05:06  <andythenorth> should I care
12:05:07  <andythenorth> ?
12:06:14  <supermop> no
12:06:58  <peter1138> Nope. It's not like you'll finish it.
12:07:25  <andythenorth> does anybody finish it?
12:07:44  <andythenorth> I could 1.0 it
12:07:50  <andythenorth> that’s ‘finished’? :P
12:09:05  <V453000> LOL
12:11:19  <andythenorth> V453000: model 1 55pmh > replacement model 2, 45mph
12:11:21  <andythenorth> opinion?
12:11:40  <V453000> ?
12:12:11  <andythenorth> newer model is slower.
12:12:14  <andythenorth> 
12:12:20  <V453000> then it isnt a replacement?
12:12:20  <andythenorth> due to realism, and evil
12:12:59  <V453000> if it has better power/te/capacity-something, then it can get on the same level and then it is another choice what you can get
12:13:06  <andythenorth> it has much more power
12:13:07  <andythenorth> and TE
12:13:15  <V453000> well then it is probably a different purpose vehicle
12:13:17  <V453000> not replacemtn
12:13:42  <andythenorth> irl it’s for taking slow coal trains up hills cheaply
12:13:45  <andythenorth> but this is not rl
12:14:09  <V453000> it is like having fast and strong train class
12:14:21  <andythenorth> yes
12:14:22  <V453000> both can coexist and each can have its use
12:14:23  <andythenorth> I just leave it be
12:14:35  <V453000> BUT I think it is nicer to do it vice versa still
12:14:43  <V453000> first introduce slower classes, get faster classes later
12:15:19  <andythenorth> I am +1 to that
12:15:26  <andythenorth> this is the only exception
12:16:19  <V453000> just dont take them as replacement, just competition between each other
12:16:46  <V453000> -> creating which is good so the player has some choice
12:18:03  <andythenorth> choices :P
12:19:54  <V453000> like beer
12:24:10  <andythenorth> is maglev a thing?
12:24:54  <V453000> is wetrail a thing?
12:24:56  <V453000> or monorail?
12:24:57  <V453000> (:
12:25:10  <andythenorth> they are thing
12:26:06  <V453000> adding maglev is great, but kind of requires universal track type
12:26:14  <andythenorth> I was thinking of splitting
12:26:19  <V453000> otherwise autoreplace goes to shit
12:26:21  <andythenorth> freight and pax maglev types
12:26:24  <andythenorth> yeah
12:26:29  <andythenorth> I am -1 to this crap for now
12:26:34  <andythenorth> enough to do, enough to do
12:26:42  <V453000> understandable
12:27:18  <andythenorth> actually just run costs and offsets to fix
12:27:27  <andythenorth> and cargo sprite crap, but that can wait
12:27:34  <peter1138> autoplace goes to shit?
12:27:43  <peter1138> because it won't let you replace incompatible types|?
12:28:11  <V453000> how do you turn your network from rail to maglev then?
12:28:36  <andythenorth> carefully
12:28:42  <andythenorth> it’s part of the gameplay? o_O
12:29:04  <V453000> it is just slave labour, and while might be part of the original train set, is convenient to get rid of by newgrf
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12:29:25  <V453000> if you already implement maglev, having it autoreplaceable to is nice to say the least
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12:30:12  <andythenorth> biab
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12:47:33  <V453000> peter1138: works? :D
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13:19:17  <Xaroth|Work> V453000: love the hands
13:19:50  <V453000> just illustrator hands :d
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13:52:59  <andythenorth> how much should running costs be?
13:53:14  <Xaroth|Work> 99% of the money earnt
13:53:43  <V453000> :D:D:D
13:54:47  <maddy_> V453000: YETI looks interesting
13:55:02  <V453000> andythenorth: running_cost_factor:100;  is what I got
13:55:06  <V453000> maddy_: thanks (:
13:55:19  <V453000> andythenorth: on ALL of my engines :)
13:55:24  <andythenorth> right
13:56:02  <andythenorth> hmm
13:56:04  <maddy_> providing supplies to primary industries to increase production is cool, what I didn't like in FIRS is that I had to deliver them gradually in small bits, by building a truck just for that
13:56:28  <andythenorth> how do you know you don’t have to do that in YETI? o_O
13:56:32  <V453000> nobody said it isnt going to be gradually :D
13:56:53  <V453000> but yeah that mechanic is yet to be decided
13:57:00  <maddy_> I don't know, I am just...hoping :)
13:57:00  <andythenorth> I think you should do them insane
13:57:06  <andythenorth> like FIRS ones are now insane
13:57:44  <andythenorth> hmm V453000 really did set all running costs ~same
13:58:02  <V453000> sure did
13:58:02  <V453000> I tried to describe most of my current ideas
13:58:10  <V453000> no reason to give a shit about running costs
13:58:41  <maddy_> just hated the micromanagement of transporting supplies to a transfer station, then building trucks with timetables so they deliver the supplies just at the right speed etc.
13:59:17  <V453000> well there are many various way how to do it
13:59:19  <V453000> not just trucks
13:59:37  <V453000> e.g. leaving coal trains with 1 wagon for supplies, returning with that wagon back to the mine
13:59:46  <andythenorth> it’s not micromanagement :P
14:00:01  <V453000> andy, in case of e.g. farms it is just slave work :D
14:00:01  <andythenorth> micromanagement is if I change the amount randomly every few months :P
14:00:10  <andythenorth> V453000: I fricking hate farms
14:00:14  <V453000> :D:D:D
14:00:37  <V453000> random changes in productions are easily handled by self-regulating things like auto-refilling stations (overflows) etc
14:00:46  <V453000> you wouldnt win anything there andythenorth  :P
14:00:47  <andythenorth> farms are crap
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14:01:08  <V453000> andythenorth: I described some FIRS BAD FEATURES in the blog article
14:01:16  <andythenorth> V453000: what is this SANE MODE?
14:01:17  <andythenorth> wtf?
14:01:23  <V453000> farms/industry placement/not all industries create supplies
14:01:29  <V453000> andythenorth: sane mode is a lie
14:01:31  <V453000> psst
14:02:00  <V453000> but yeah fuck knows, the chains can be replaced a lot, the system will probably stay
14:02:22  <maddy_> the graphics for the industries is a lot of work
14:02:27  <V453000> I know right :)
14:02:34  <andythenorth> V453000: have you played FIRS Heart of Darkness?
14:02:45  <V453000> a bit yeah
14:03:23  <V453000> the ports are an excellent feature, works very well with the temperate economy where every primary can suddenly produce supplies
14:03:28  <andythenorth> it’s totally unbalanced, but it doesn’t have the same problems with supplies
14:03:39  <andythenorth> supplies in ‘FIRS Economy’ are boring
14:03:46  <andythenorth> and yes, they lead to emphasis on supplies cargos
14:03:51  <andythenorth> then ‘oh crap, too many supplies'
14:03:55  <andythenorth> boring
14:04:02  <V453000> fact that ports have production cap means that it supports to use more ports instead of just one, which I also like
14:04:22  <andythenorth> ‘Heart of Darkness' is less logical than ‘FIRS’
14:04:28  <andythenorth> logic isn’t good
14:04:37  <V453000> :D (:
14:05:08  <V453000> anyway, I gtfo (: cya
14:05:21  <andythenorth> :P
14:05:25  <andythenorth> bye
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14:27:46  <__ln__>
14:29:43  <LordAro> i saw that
14:29:47  <LordAro> vaguely scary stuff
14:32:53  <andythenorth> 'vaguely'
14:32:57  <andythenorth> understated :)
14:33:05  <andythenorth> precisely scary
14:33:52  <andythenorth> the amount of time spent on measures like implementing SSL, and setting strong passwords, enforcing good infosec discipline etc
14:34:10  <andythenorth> is a staggering amount of waste given that a massive part of the internet had the door unlocked
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14:39:00  <TheBix> hey guys
14:39:05  <TheBix> anyone know anything about development?
14:40:14  <peter1138> Nope.
14:40:28  <SpComb> I heard the OpenSSL guys know how to write C
14:42:11  <LordAro> well, kinda
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14:54:31  <andythenorth> default trains are way too cheap to run
14:54:40  <andythenorth> I wonder how I used to lose so badly :(
14:54:41  <peter1138> Your mum.
14:54:46  <TheBix> how do I get the next train in front of a train in the code?
14:54:47  <Xaroth|Work> as i said, 99% of money earnt should be spent on running cost :P
14:54:51  <andythenorth> my mum didn’t play much TTD
14:54:55  <andythenorth> mostly Repton
14:55:00  <andythenorth> and Mr. Ee
14:55:03  <andythenorth> and Snapper
14:56:36  <peter1138> Which Repton?
14:56:41  <peter1138> 2 was so evil :S
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14:58:52  <andythenorth> most of them
14:58:54  <andythenorth> and yes evil
14:58:59  <andythenorth> there was also level editing
14:59:11  <andythenorth> many happy wasted hours
14:59:37  * andythenorth spent about as much time editing games as playing them
14:59:52  <andythenorth> also badly coding very bad Acorn Basic games
15:00:07  <andythenorth> without any understanding of what a sprite blitter actually was or should do
15:00:23  <andythenorth> someone should have given me a book or something :P
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15:20:03  <mg_> hi. question: do towns grow if i connect two of them with a road? i do not transprot anything between them with that road, just connect them
15:24:02  <LordAro> makes no difference
15:24:10  <LordAro> other than they have a 'free' road to build on
15:24:40  <planetmaker> so it might ever so slightly impact growth :)
15:24:51  <planetmaker> most often immeasurably little
15:24:58  <mg_> i see
15:25:01  <mg_> thx :)
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15:41:57  <ZirconiumX> I didn't know Macbook Pros snored.
15:45:08  <andythenorth> mine does
16:01:21  <peter1138> Hmm, nice, my 3TB drive is dying...
16:02:06  <ZirconiumX> Backup time!
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16:43:25  <Eddi|zuHause> [09.04.2014 04:41] <peter1138> Hmm, could just commit what I have and let MJP sort out the rest ;) <-- always a good idea to let other people figure out the details :)
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16:47:49  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, well it's SSE...
16:49:33  <planetmaker> then ask him...
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16:50:42  <peter1138> Sure, that's the plan. Meanwhile I'll play with 32bpp-optimized so I can see path reservations etc...
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17:41:42  <frosch123> V453000: i like toffee way more than candyfloss
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17:45:27  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26452 /trunk/src/lang (3 files) (2014-04-09 17:45:18 UTC)
17:45:28  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:29  <DorpsGek> basque - 18 changes by laxkax
17:45:30  <DorpsGek> english_US - 2 changes by Supercheese
17:45:31  <DorpsGek> russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
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17:50:42  <Alberth> more interesting cargo chain? I tend to do candyfloss, as the toffee quarry looks so stupid to me
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18:00:53  <XeryusTC> is it just me or is there some kind of weird acceleration going on when scrolling with the mouse at higher zoom levels?
18:03:04  <frosch123> Alberth: sugar, toffee and candyfloss are equivalent
18:03:14  <frosch123> but i like the toffee quary graphics most :p
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18:07:52  <Alberth> o/
18:08:03  <andythenorth> bon soiree
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18:21:58  <andythenorth> what is making?
18:24:24  * Alberth is mostly throwing patches into trunks, of work done in the last 2 weeks
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18:24:50  <Alberth> unfortunately, no openttd patches :(
18:27:09  <andythenorth> I should have aliased makego=‘make install && say done’ years ago
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18:28:58  <Alberth> aiming for finishing rather than perfection is an art too :)
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18:29:26  <Alberth> hi hi, wolf
18:29:26  <Wolf01> hi all o/
18:29:57  <andythenorth> the time wasted watching shells compile, instead of reading the interwebs :(
18:30:02  <andythenorth> must be hours
18:31:14  <Wolf01> oh oh happy birthday Terkhen
18:32:36  <andythenorth> I need a faster compile :P
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18:34:50  <andythenorth> Alberth: wondering if there’s a way to read modified date of a python module’s source?  What would I search for?
18:35:10  <andythenorth> python does it when compiling .pyc, but maybe I have no access to that :P
18:36:25  <andythenorth> hmm found an example
18:37:34  <Alberth> the module its __file__, and use the os.stat ?
18:37:48  <andythenorth> will try
18:38:07  <Alberth> the stat module gives access to the fields returned by os.stat
18:39:43  <peter1138> # cos i know where syd barret lives
18:41:14  <andythenorth> print os.stat(__file__).st_mtime seems to work
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18:48:32  <Alberth> :o didn't know you could do that :)
18:51:08  <peter1138> Hmm, so anything 32bpp other than zBase to play with atm?
18:51:38  <andythenorth> interesting
18:53:44  <peter1138> Hmm, locks2.diff
18:53:47  <andythenorth> this definitely won’t go wrong in future :P print inspect.stack()[2][1]
18:53:56  <andythenorth> as a way of getting at a calling module
18:54:19  <peter1138> Do it!
18:54:46  <andythenorth> I did :(
18:54:51  <andythenorth> this will cause regret
18:54:53  <andythenorth> in future
18:55:08  <peter1138> Hmm, need to find a save with locks.
18:55:56  <Phreeze> how can i turn those fucking ufos off !!!!!
18:56:14  <andythenorth> I am about to write some caching using a file on disk
18:56:14  <Alberth> disable disasters?
18:56:19  <andythenorth> I am definitely not competent to do this
18:56:54  <Phreeze> i recheck disasters but i'm nearly 200% sure they are off
18:57:38  <Phreeze> aaand the setting was on
18:57:44  * Phreeze slaps that setting wound
18:58:04  <michi_cc> peter1138: is 32bpp (only terrain though).
18:58:29  <Phreeze> something that distrubs me is that "train 1 can't find a way to blabla" and "train 1 gets very old" is in the same news-category
18:58:36  <Phreeze> i dont care about old trains, as i turned it off
18:58:47  <Phreeze> but i care about misplaced signs and trainjams
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19:06:17  <peter1138> Error: Assertion failed at line 79 of /home/petern/ottd/git/trunk/src/water_map.h: IsTileType(t, MP_WATER)
19:06:23  <peter1138> pom te pom!
19:09:57  <Pikka> you bruk it
19:11:36  <peter1138> never
19:11:46  <Pikka> what, never?
19:12:04  <andythenorth> oh look
19:12:06  <andythenorth> a pikka
19:12:17  <Pikka> whence a pikka?
19:14:12  <peter1138> Oh okay, I did.
19:14:44  <peter1138> Forgot it wasn't a clean build :p
19:15:03  <andythenorth> is .cache a thing we do?
19:15:07  <andythenorth> nml does it
19:16:13  <Pikka> how goes hoss?
19:16:26  <andythenorth> hoss has costs
19:16:30  <Pikka> dan posted as if there'd been an update, but it's still alpha 3 on the fruitstand?
19:16:33  <andythenorth> I got distracted by ‘optimisation'
19:16:38  <andythenorth> it’s alpha 3?
19:16:39  <andythenorth> hmm
19:16:42  <andythenorth> more alphas soon
19:18:38  <Pikka> hmm
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19:36:07  <glx> [20:08:06] <andythenorth> bon soiree <-- bonne soirée ;)
19:36:48  <andythenorth> what is not equal about these values? 1397067993.0 1397067993.0
19:37:30  <Phreeze> noob andy
19:37:38  <glx> something after 0 maybe :)
19:37:47  <Phreeze> type ?
19:37:58  <andythenorth> I’m co-ercing both to float
19:38:01  <andythenorth> oh no I’m not
19:38:04  <Phreeze> lol
19:38:07  <andythenorth> I’m printing them both as float :P
19:38:16  <andythenorth> not same
19:38:21  <glx> printed they are the same ;)
19:38:46  <frosch123> try printing the difference
19:38:52  <frosch123> in scientific notation
19:40:17  <XeryusTC> andythenorth: did you and pm play a game on the prozone?
19:40:26  <andythenorth> not recently
19:41:08  <XeryusTC> there is an arctic game on it that has reached the end according to the gamescript
19:44:24  <andythenorth> hm
19:44:33  <andythenorth> I just wrote a caching thing that saves 8s on most compiles
19:44:40  <andythenorth> probably severely unwise
19:45:21  <andythenorth> I already thought of a way it can go wrong
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19:46:28  <peter1138> I wrote a thing to cache newgrf information. It went wrong after the first go.
19:46:34  <peter1138> Seems to be much faster these days anyway.
19:47:38  <peter1138> @seen belugas
19:47:38  <DorpsGek> peter1138: belugas was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 0 days, 6 hours, 26 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <Belugas> hello
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19:57:23  <andythenorth> it can’t be good, layering on all this crap for faster compiles
19:57:27  <andythenorth> it’s going to bite me :P
19:58:52  <peter1138> Anything like ccache for it?
19:59:28  <andythenorth> the templater caches some stuff, and nml caches some stuff
19:59:34  <andythenorth> but I had to write my own string in the middle
19:59:48  <andythenorth> still, I can’t be worse than OpenSSL or Apple’s programmers, right?
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20:07:37  <frosch123> hmm, did they invent a new cve severity level?
20:07:55  <planetmaker> world-crushing?
20:08:03  <andythenorth> all your key belong to us?
20:08:42  <peter1138> CVSS 2 20.1?
20:08:43  <frosch123> ah, i confused debian with cve ratings
20:09:15  <peter1138> Hmm, nearly £5m cash. Maybe I can build airports again.
20:09:15  <andythenorth> Pikka: the rivets are animated
20:09:19  <andythenorth> you have to look closely
20:10:56  <Pikka> splendid
20:11:12  <andythenorth> let me know when you’ve found them
20:11:47  <peter1138> 10cc is missing all those 5000hp trains we're used to.
20:12:32  <Pikka> but at least it has animated rivets
20:14:49  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:16:19  <andythenorth> Pikka: my universal engine is universally £50k to buy
20:16:24  <andythenorth> which is nice and in the middle :P
20:16:31  <andythenorth> that is pointlessly pleasing
20:16:49  <Pikka> are you updating a banana?
20:17:09  <andythenorth> only if you want all costs £0
20:17:13  <andythenorth> running costs
20:17:25  <andythenorth> I was going to do them tonight
20:17:30  <andythenorth> but I just spent 2 hours saving 8 seconds
20:17:33  <Pikka> k
20:17:36  <Pikka> well
20:18:01  <andythenorth> wagon running costs, yes or no?
20:18:19  <Pikka> yes, imo
20:18:28  <andythenorth> k
20:20:28  <Pikka> hmm
20:20:59  <andythenorth> ?
20:21:09  <Pikka> is local authority cost for removal signed? can you make it so the town likes you demolisihing certain buildings? I'm guessing "no"...
20:21:34  <andythenorth> gentrify slums, gain rating?
20:21:39  <andythenorth> build tesco, gain rating?
20:21:45  <andythenorth> until 2004, backlash happens
20:24:49  <frosch123> Pikka: no, it isn't
20:25:08  <Pikka> ta
20:25:38  <andythenorth> Pikka: what say about running costs?
20:26:02  * andythenorth looks what NARS 2 says about them
20:26:18  <Pikka> are you doing the 75% off when stationary thing?
20:26:19  <andythenorth> NARS 2 says ‘moar'
20:26:21  <frosch123> my unwritten blog says: set purchase cost to zero, and running cost that high that iron ore trains run at a loss
20:26:25  <andythenorth> Pikka: not yes
20:26:31  <andythenorth> not yet *
20:26:34  <andythenorth> maybe never
20:26:42  <planetmaker> why ore trains at a loss?
20:26:57  <frosch123> so you have to make the money with secondary and tertiary cargos
20:27:05  <andythenorth> NARS 2 looks like running cost is turned up by 4?
20:27:16  <Pikka> about that, probably
20:27:24  <andythenorth> frosch123: dump the cargo payment rate?
20:27:31  <Pikka> but it is tuned for 75% off when stationary
20:27:45  <andythenorth> hrm
20:27:48  <frosch123> andythenorth: i cannot put out all the teaser quoted at once :)
20:28:01  <frosch123> *quotes
20:28:10  <Pikka> + all that other nonsense that NARS does with running costs
20:28:21  <andythenorth> NARS 2 costs look like the ones I’m thinking of
20:28:25  <andythenorth> except no 75% discount
20:28:35  <andythenorth> am I being mean?
20:28:40  <Pikka> well
20:28:46  <Pikka> the discount is a goodfeature imo
20:29:14  <andythenorth> BAD FEATURE
20:29:24  <andythenorth> that won’t get annoying :P
20:29:45  <Pikka> it allows trains which spend a long time loading cargo to be profitable
20:30:06  <Pikka> while not making trains which bounce back and forth with instant full loads overly profitable
20:31:16  <andythenorth> I might add it
20:31:17  <andythenorth> dunno
20:33:11  <__ln__>
20:34:23  <Pikka> 0s everywhere
20:34:59  <peter1138> Nice.
20:35:04  <andythenorth> can we declare 2048 over yet?
20:35:53  <frosch123> there are a lot more negative than positive numbers
20:36:01  <Pikka> it's not over until the fat lady gets 65536
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20:44:55  <andythenorth> hmm
20:44:59  <andythenorth> let’s just have easy costs
20:45:14  <andythenorth> want them harder, use base cost mod grf
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20:46:56  <Pikka> nope
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20:47:35  <Pikka> base costs are local to the grf, if you set the base costs in hoss no other newgrf (except one which specifically alters hoss) will change them.
20:48:03  <andythenorth> hrm
20:48:04  <frosch123> nope
20:48:17  <Pikka> nope?
20:48:20  <frosch123> base costs are only local, for features the grf provides stuff for
20:48:27  <Pikka> well, yes
20:48:33  <frosch123> grf which do nothing but basecosts do them global
20:48:42  <andythenorth> what do we want from costs?  We want to make money in our games, yes / no?
20:48:53  <frosch123> read by unwritten blog .p
20:49:00  <frosch123> *my
20:49:03  <andythenorth> I will
20:49:04  <andythenorth> in the future
20:49:10  <andythenorth> but for today I need to set a value :P
20:49:13  <Pikka> interesting, frosch123
20:49:32  <Pikka> so global basecost mods break the balance between grfs which set their own basecosts? :D
20:49:40  <frosch123> no
20:49:44  <frosch123> they are incremental
20:49:49  <Pikka> o
20:49:52  <frosch123> they do not overwrite, but add
20:50:02  <Pikka> nice
20:50:17  <frosch123> that's why there is a "bast cost mod" grf :)
20:50:24  <Pikka> fair enough :P
20:50:41  <frosch123> it's the html apporach
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20:51:09  <frosch123> change features to make the more useful while keeping compatibilty, at the cost of making them more complicated :)
20:51:17  <Pikka> andy: is the "halve all costs" parameter in 10cc a bad feature?
20:51:56  <Pikka> high costs for singleplayer where costs are for balance, low costs for GS games where you want to build build build?
20:52:27  <andythenorth> Pikka: HEQS has same
20:52:30  <andythenorth> I dunno
20:52:39  <andythenorth> thing is you have to remember to set it in advance
20:53:02  <andythenorth> it’s the best we can do
20:53:06  <andythenorth> but it’s pretty crappy imo
20:56:40  <andythenorth> hmm
20:56:45  <andythenorth> pretty tricky
20:56:53  <andythenorth> I want to get a spread of costs
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21:07:14  <andythenorth> ok that will do
21:13:06  <andythenorth> Pikka: new hoss
21:13:09  <andythenorth> alpha-4
21:17:20  <andythenorth> also for bed andythenorth
21:17:21  <andythenorth> bye
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