Log for #openttd on 12th April 2014:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:14:44  <Supercheese> I should test that all my gender and case tags are working properly...
00:15:12  <Supercheese> and I may have moved {STRING}s around and forgotten to swap them back...
00:23:45  <planetmaker> you shall quickly see that :)
00:26:48  <planetmaker> however good night from my side for now. Or... ave! bonam noctem aut diem habeatis
00:28:32  <Supercheese> Certe habebo, gratias
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03:33:00  <Supercheese> This Latin news article has a typo; how dare they, Latin authors are supposed to be better than everybody else! :P
03:59:51  <Supercheese> Polish has some weeeeeird plurals
04:00:07  <Supercheese> "For example in Polish language the second form applies for numbers that end with 2, 3 or 4, .but excluding -teen numbers. "
04:45:15  <Flygon> Man, dumb idea #3821903
04:45:40  <Flygon> OpenTTD has support for Telegraph, Telephone, Fibre, and various wireless communication towers and lines
04:45:58  <Flygon> Thus allowing profit to be made from the electronic transport of information :B
04:54:10  <Supercheese> I wrote a grf for power lines once
04:54:23  <Supercheese> it could just as easily be for telephone lines
04:54:39  <Supercheese> "100 packets of data waiting"
04:55:02  <Supercheese> would be pretty easy to code
04:55:15  <Supercheese> what sort of "vehicles" would carry the packets of data?
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04:56:14  <Supercheese> I went with "sparks" for carrying electricity
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04:56:23  <Supercheese> I suppose they could carry data just as well
04:57:43  <Supercheese> make it a town growth requirement
04:57:52  <Supercheese> "Must have communication"
04:57:59  <Supercheese> "Town demands faster Internet"
04:58:15  <Supercheese> you may be on to something...
04:58:58  <Supercheese> So then you build a lorry, fill it with microSD cards:
04:59:37  <Supercheese> "Capacity: 1.6 x 10^15 Bytes of data"
04:59:59  <Supercheese> :D
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05:26:45  <Flygon> Supercheese: Sorry for the delay
05:26:50  <Flygon> Well, I was thinking more
05:27:05  <Flygon> You plop down telephone exchange or whatever, and the game starts automatically doing the peering for you
05:27:15  <Flygon> Instead of you building 'vehicles'  to transport whatever
05:27:24  <Supercheese> Ah, that would require a source code patch
05:27:33  <Supercheese> I was thinking of possibilities through newgrf only
05:27:35  <Flygon> Because, honestly, it's a bit silly to have electricity as a cargo to be transported :P
05:27:41  <Flygon> As proven by the fourth climate :B
05:27:50  <Flygon> Yes, it would require a patch
05:28:13  <Supercheese> Eh, I think it'd be cute to have it as a cargo
05:28:20  <Supercheese> but then you run into the silly limits on houses
05:28:22  <Flygon> But assuming the whole basic "x by pipe/wire" thing is implemented, and can be stuffed over and under existing whatevers
05:28:25  <Flygon> It'd be quite nice
05:28:34  <Flygon> eg. installing telephone lines on the 'same' tile as roads
05:28:53  <Flygon> But, it would be extensive... and that's the barrier
05:29:05  <Supercheese> like houses can only accept a max of 3 cargoes
05:29:49  <Supercheese> oh, but can they produce any number of cargoes?
05:30:00  <Supercheese> I've not investigated until now...
05:35:09  <Supercheese> very nice, looks like houses can produce any number of cargoes
05:35:19  <Supercheese> so each house could produce communication data
05:36:12  <Supercheese> then for the 19th century you build a telegraph station, build the lines, and send "vehicles" across to carry the data
05:36:30  <Supercheese> eventually it upgrades to telephone lines
05:36:52  <Supercheese> and then radio broadcasts, hmm
05:37:06  <Supercheese> although those aren't sent by houses, just received
05:37:32  <Supercheese> an interesting idea, to be certain
05:38:54  <Pinkbeast> Vehicles> this would only make sense with proper support for continuous transport.
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05:39:15  <Pinkbeast> And of course there's already one communication data cargo in the game. :-)
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06:48:30  <andythenorth> @seen pikka
06:48:30  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 21 hours, 49 minutes, and 25 seconds ago: <Pikka> simples
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07:06:50  <andythenorth> o/ Alberth
07:07:08  <Alberth> moin!
07:07:58  <Alberth> all horses running smoothly?
07:13:50  <andythenorth> so far
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08:45:38  <Wolf01> hi hi
08:46:43  <Alberth> o/
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08:49:05  <DanMacK> Hey all
08:49:12  <DanMacK> @seen andythenorth
08:49:12  <DorpsGek> DanMacK: andythenorth was last seen in #openttd 1 hour, 35 minutes, and 21 seconds ago: <andythenorth> so far
08:51:35  <Alberth> hey, as usual, he's coming and going all day :)
08:51:57  <planetmaker> moin DanMacK :)
08:52:30  <DanMacK> hey PM
08:53:59  <planetmaker> nice work on iron horse :)
08:56:29  <DanMacK> thanks
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10:58:06  <frosch123> Supercheese: <- there are way more funny plural forms; btw. czech has the same 7 cases as latin
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11:16:22  <andythenorth> can GS track cargo between source-destination pairs?
11:16:31  <andythenorth> wondering about a simple ‘connections’ challenge GS
11:17:32  <Alberth> hmm, probably not
11:17:50  <Alberth> I wonder how subsidies do it
11:17:54  <andythenorth> subsidy framework does it
11:22:10  <andythenorth> Refittable to: [nothing]
11:22:18  <andythenorth> but “Offers auto-refit”
11:22:22  <andythenorth> something wrong there :P
11:22:38  <andythenorth> I guess I have to have another switch :(
11:22:46  <andythenorth> or not care
11:27:24  * andythenorth wonders what max sensible price for an RV is
11:27:30  <andythenorth> probably £50k
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11:41:51  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26456 trunk/bin/baseset/no_sound.obs (2014-04-12 11:41:45 UTC)
11:41:52  <DorpsGek> -Update: Baseset translations.
11:43:09  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26457 /trunk/src (industry_cmd.cpp industry_map.h) (2014-04-12 11:43:04 UTC)
11:43:10  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Remove unused parameter from SetIndustryCompleted
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13:06:22  <peter1138> Heh... Pronborough.
13:08:12  <talebowl> I'm doing some more work on the location button (have been doing some other stuff for the past couple of days, but code should now be more or less done, apart from rechecking everything) and I'm currently working on the actual sprite. I've added the image into media/extra_grf/openttdgui.png and I've also updated media/extra_grf/openttdgui.nfo and make has made the appropriate changes to the files indicated in the changesets some of y
13:08:12  <talebowl> ou pointed me to. However, the sprite doesn't show up in the game (the button seems to be slightly bigger, and there is a greyish line of about 1 or 2 pixels). When I run grf2html on the bin/baseset/openttd.grf (with the win palette) most of the actual images don't show up (however, as that was also the case before I made my changes, I assume that this is normal ) but my added sprite (#175) isn't even in the appropriate table (Action
13:08:12  <talebowl> 5 Type 15). I would think that this means that there is a problem with  my .nfo edits (I added the sprite line and updated the count). Do I also need to run grfcodec on the nfo's or is just running make enough?
13:10:44  <frosch123> did you edit the first line of the info, where the comment says something about the number of sprites?
13:11:19  <talebowl> I did. As the new sprite would be #175, I updated it to 176 (as it was previously also last+1)
13:12:15  <frosch123> <- can you access your sprite ingame via that hing?
13:12:54  <andythenorth> is it bad that I am including my own inflation?
13:13:22  <talebowl> I'll try that, thanks
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13:18:40  <talebowl> frosch123: Nope, that doesn't seem to work. #174 is the cargodist smallmap icon, and when I pick that one and click next, I get one of the signals
13:19:21  <frosch123> did you increment the constant for number of gui sprites in sprites.h then?
13:20:41  <talebowl> ah right, I forgot that. Thanks
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13:25:03  <andythenorth> do buses and trucks have different running costs?
13:25:19  <andythenorth> I can only find PR_RUNNING_ROADVEH
13:26:44  <andythenorth> but I have variance between buses and trucks of 3 orders of magnitude
13:26:50  <andythenorth> and my code looks right
13:28:29  <andythenorth> hmm
13:28:53  <andythenorth> unrelated a loaded newgrf in this game screws with base costs
13:28:58  <andythenorth> for all vehicles
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13:34:53  <andythenorth> so I have a bus with run cost factor 27
13:35:07  <andythenorth> and running cost £1350 / yr
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13:35:17  <andythenorth> I have a freight tram with run cost factor 27
13:35:34  <andythenorth> and running cost £10 / yr
13:35:39  <andythenorth> did I just not get enough sleep?
13:35:42  <andythenorth> or is this odd?
13:35:49  <Phreeze> base running costs differ i think
13:36:01  <TheBix> hey guys
13:36:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: any callback involved?
13:36:44  <frosch123> articulated parts?
13:36:51  <andythenorth> articulated in some cases
13:36:57  <andythenorth> but it doesn’t seem significant
13:37:03  <andythenorth> I don’t recall a cost cb, I’ll check
13:37:45  <frosch123> never mind, for rv only the front matters
13:37:48  <frosch123> no articulated effect
13:37:59  <andythenorth> there are no CBs
13:38:15  <andythenorth> nor is it purchase list handling
13:40:29  <andythenorth> yair
13:40:59  <andythenorth> if I just specify 255 in the action 0 property, the buses are ~1000x more expensive to run
13:41:04  <andythenorth> compared to trucks
13:45:07  <andythenorth> running_cost_base wasn’t set
13:45:09  <andythenorth> solved
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14:10:58  <TheBix> guys im on windows
14:11:01  <TheBix> how do I make a patch file?
14:11:19  <frosch123> with your version control system
14:11:24  <frosch123> svn, hg, git
14:11:27  <Alberth> or with diff
14:12:54  <TheBix> what best practices should I use to make sure my patch is compatible with many others?
14:14:30  <frosch123> the patch format is more or less the same
14:14:40  <Alberth> use the unified diff format
14:15:40  <Alberth> add the revision in the filename of the patch file, so people know what version to apply the patch
14:16:43  <Alberth> ie something like   my_change_r26453.patch
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14:21:09  <TheBix> my patch should work for all verions
14:21:22  <TheBix> unless they change rain::GetCurrentMaxSpeed()
14:21:24  <TheBix> Train*
14:21:33  <TheBix> which I doubt happens much
14:21:52  <frosch123> i doubt it works for ottd < 0.5 :p
14:22:50  <TheBix> guys how do I tell if theres a signal on a track?
14:23:02  <frosch123> check rail_map.h
14:23:04  <Alberth> TheBix: unless you really verify every single revision, just claiming that it works for the one revision you used is much more feasible
14:23:18  <TheBix> Alberth, yes of course.
14:23:38  <Alberth> if other people want to apply it to another revision, your number gives them a starting point to start checking
14:25:27  <Alberth> a revision number is mostly just that, a starting point.  Whether a patch can be applied to earlier or later revisions heavily depends on the patch itself
14:29:34  <planetmaker> I'm already happy when a patch works for the revision it claims to be made for ;)
14:31:09  <TheBix> any patches that people are interested in?
14:31:12  <TheBix> preferably little ones
14:31:17  <TheBix> i feel like writing one
14:31:51  <planetmaker> any of the bugs in our issue tracker which can interest you?
14:31:54  <TheBix> I just rewrote the ATC patch as a little practice thing (and also partially because people say its full of bugs and sucH)
14:32:45  <TheBix> planetmaker, can you link me the issue tracker?
14:34:19  <Alberth>
14:37:16  <planetmaker>[]=1&sev[]=&pri[]=&due[]=0&reported[]=&cat[]=&status[]=open&percent[]=&opened=&dev=&closed=&duedatefrom=&duedateto=&changedfrom=&changedto=&openedfrom=&openedto=&closedfrom=&closedto=&do=index
14:37:24  <planetmaker> it gets long if one adds the filtering :)
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14:49:38  <andythenorth> balancing across sets is much easier when you make all of the sets :P
14:49:56  <frosch123> are you sure?
14:50:02  <frosch123> i mean you cannot blame anyone
14:50:16  <andythenorth> I blame the algorithm
14:58:37  <SpComb> the only good strategy for random online multiplayer games is a) a compact industry network to pay off your loan and generate some capital b) build out a massive passenger network
14:58:53  <SpComb> is there autoreplace for wagons?
14:59:11  <frosch123> yes, at the bottom you can select engines/wagons
14:59:25  <Alberth> :o never used that :)
14:59:42  <andythenorth> :o
14:59:43  <andythenorth> :)
15:00:00  <planetmaker> feature since... dunno, 2007?
15:00:04  <andythenorth> essential
15:00:05  <planetmaker> :)
15:00:08  <mg_> :-)
15:00:49  <andythenorth> slightly confusing because it’s a toggle
15:00:54  <andythenorth> but it doesn’t look like a control
15:01:11  <andythenorth> and it’s not an on / off toggle
15:01:31  <andythenorth> and it’s next to a dropdown for replacing by railtype
15:01:40  <andythenorth> so quite easily missed as a function
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15:16:12  <peter1138> Shoobedoobe.
15:20:46  <Phreeze> so
15:20:56  <Phreeze> dog is half dead after that walk ^^
15:21:49  <frosch123> if you only do it half, it will recover
15:22:03  <Phreeze> that's what i intend^^
15:22:06  <Phreeze> she shouldn't die ;)
15:23:16  <LordAro> TheBix, clearly you should :p
15:23:54  <Phreeze> that free rct project is going way to slow
15:24:15  <Phreeze> blog started in 2011
15:24:34  <LordAro> your point?
15:24:43  <LordAro> contribute, then it can go faster!
15:24:43  <Phreeze> it will never be released as a final version ;)
15:24:43  <frosch123> don't start a blog
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15:25:05  <LordAro> Phreeze, and you think OTTD will ever have a final version?
15:25:19  <Phreeze> from version 1.0.0 it has
15:25:26  <Eshays> LordAro, what's freeRCT?
15:25:27  <Phreeze> for me it's a "complete" version
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15:25:34  <Phreeze> free rollercoaster tycoon
15:26:08  <_TheBix> based of the real RCT code?
15:26:09  <LordAro> Phreeze, what makes you think frct will never reach that point?
15:26:09  <_TheBix> or not?
15:26:14  <LordAro> _TheBix, not
15:26:20  <LordAro> reimplementation only
15:26:23  <_TheBix> that's unfortunate
15:26:32  <_TheBix> RCT is now like rogue software
15:26:48  <LordAro> _TheBix, well, we're no chris sawyer, so we can't do the whole thing in x86 asm ;)
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15:27:20  <_TheBix> LordAro, it would be good if there was a real openRCT2
15:27:22  <_TheBix> or something
15:27:24  <Alberth> actually, we can, but it would be even slower :p
15:27:30  <_TheBix> cuz right now I have a VM on my pc just to run RCT
15:27:56  <_TheBix> x86 asm is not too hard compared to c i guess
15:28:00  <_TheBix> esp if you use a good assembler
15:28:03  <frosch123> what version of rct is the popular one?
15:28:05  <frosch123> 1, 2, 3?
15:28:13  <_TheBix> frosch123, 1 and 2
15:28:13  <LordAro> frosch123, 1+2
15:28:23  <frosch123> what does 3 do wrong?
15:28:26  <LordAro> 3D
15:28:47  <LordAro> "<_TheBix> LordAro, it would be good if there was a real openRCT2" i think you'll find frct is attempting to do both ;)
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15:28:53  <frosch123> interface? looks?
15:29:02  <LordAro> everything
15:29:11  <_TheBix> frosch123, its just not as in depth
15:29:17  <_TheBix> frosch123, its got a new 3d engine
15:29:18  <LordAro> well, probably not interface :L
15:29:28  <_TheBix> which is pretty good IMO
15:29:40  <_TheBix> however the only disadvantage is that it's not as in depth as the original 2
15:29:45  <_TheBix> IMO
15:30:03  <_TheBix> therefore its missing the appeal of the original ones
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15:30:52  <LordAro> i've never played it myself, but i hear it's a lot more buggy then the originals too
15:31:01  <LordAro> (likely because it's a completely different code base)
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15:32:02  <Phreeze> 17:26:10] <LordAro> Phreeze, what makes you think frct will never reach that point?
15:32:11  <Phreeze> cause it's under dev for over 3 years already
15:32:21  <Phreeze> and nothing remotely playable as it seems
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15:33:28  <LordAro> ottd was in development for 6 years (+ however many ludde spent on it before initial release) before it reached 1.0.0
15:33:41  <LordAro> and i would say there's playable stuff
15:33:47  <LordAro> you clearly haven't tried it
15:34:04  <Phreeze> it was niceley playable in version 0.6 too
15:34:27  <Phreeze> i think playable = everything works, no major bugs
15:34:34  <LordAro> sure, it's not a 'game' yet, but it's getting there
15:34:36  <Phreeze> even if oyu have to import graphics
15:34:47  <LordAro> i think frct is at the same point ;)
15:34:54  <LordAro> everything works
15:36:58  <LordAro> i'll freely admit development has been slow, but that's because it's largely developed by only 2 people, who both have day job/exams to worry about
15:37:09  <LordAro> (and 1 of those people doesn't do a huge amount :L )
15:37:55  <frosch123> i've heard they also work on other silly projects
15:39:48  <Phreeze> they should push it more by advertising on open forums
15:40:15  <frosch123> nah, then you only get kids
15:40:45  <planetmaker> and we want the retirement brigade? :P
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15:41:27  <LordAro> from my perspective, you're all (developers) old anyway :p
15:42:04  <planetmaker> you should have come to the last openttd meeting ;)
15:42:32  <LordAro> could've, but you'd all leave me out by speaking german :p
15:42:36  <frosch123> i am not sure about the average age of ottd vs frct :p
15:42:54  <frosch123> wut, noone spoke german
15:43:05  <planetmaker> LordAro, I can ensure you we didn't... only few actually could speak german
15:43:28  <LordAro> german/dutch ?
15:43:41  <frosch123> swedish/french/czech
15:43:51  <planetmaker> finnish
15:44:04  <LordAro> well, i'll put serious consideration into the next one ;)
15:44:35  <planetmaker> no English native speaker, though :P
15:44:53  <planetmaker> thus proven again: the international language is bad English :P
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15:45:04  <Phreeze> luxembourgish ^^
15:45:08  <Alberth> planetmaker: false, we had belugas
15:45:10  <Phreeze> k german english french too, and some spanish
15:45:11  <frosch123> nah, the brittish just cannot speak properly
15:45:15  <Phreeze> and some pirrrrate
15:45:22  <planetmaker> Alberth, his native language is not English :)
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15:45:35  <planetmaker> (it's French)
15:45:43  <Alberth> oh, canadian of course :)
15:46:00  <Phreeze> you mean: bad accent french ?
15:46:13  <LordAro> Alberth, i thought you were Dutch? :L
15:46:43  <frosch123> anyway, we agreed on speeking unicornish at the start
15:46:50  <planetmaker> true :)
15:47:03  <Alberth> LordAro:  I didn't claim to be english, did I?
15:48:35  <LordAro> Alberth, well, no, but..
15:48:57  <LordAro> you certainly live in Dutch-land :p
15:49:07  <frosch123> dutchistan?
15:49:14  <LordAro> that's the one :p
15:49:24  <planetmaker> lol
15:49:30  * peter1138 ponders 512x256/very low towns
15:50:23  <frosch123> do 4kx4k with 2 tons
15:50:26  <frosch123> *towns
15:50:29  <Alberth> one town is enough :)
15:50:38  <planetmaker> :)
15:50:48  <planetmaker> totally flat, 2 towns, 4k^2
15:50:55  <planetmaker> no industries (initially)
15:50:55  <LordAro> one town, high industries
15:50:57  <planetmaker> no trees
15:51:10  <LordAro> see if some buffers can overflow :p
15:51:50  <LordAro> planetmaker, of course, the 2 towns have to be in 2 opposite corners
15:52:13  <Phreeze> 2 airports + afk
15:52:17  <planetmaker> No, if you want additional towns, fund them yourself
15:52:20  <__ln__> here's a critical patch that everyone's been waiting for:
15:52:47  *** ABCRic [] has joined #openttd
15:52:48  <Phreeze> spelling ?
15:53:24  <frosch123> Phreeze: ln submits a spelling diff every year
15:53:25  <peter1138> totally flat.. how tedious.
15:53:29  <frosch123> that's why the diff is called 2014
15:53:43  <Phreeze> what does it do ? :)
15:54:03  <LordAro> Phreeze, fixes spellings :p
15:54:25  <planetmaker> I guess we can accept the patch
15:54:54  <frosch123> one of the group fix suggestion patches also fixed a typo :)
15:54:57  <LordAro> i notice this still hasn't been fixed :p
15:58:03  <planetmaker> sure that it's endianness with two 'n'?
15:58:18  <planetmaker> it looks so wrong to me :)
15:58:47  <LordAro>
15:58:55  <__ln__>
15:59:27  <planetmaker> the winner takes it all, eh?
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16:00:02  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26458 /trunk (4 files in 3 dirs) (2014-04-12 15:59:56 UTC)
16:00:03  <DorpsGek> -Doc: Correct a few spelling mistakes (__ln__)
16:00:08  <planetmaker> today is commit day
16:00:38  *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@] has joined #openttd
16:02:04  <__ln__> thanks
16:02:30  <planetmaker> thank you :)
16:07:58  *** pthagnar [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
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16:19:38  <andythenorth> expensive, these trucks
16:19:54  <andythenorth> probably too expensive
16:22:27  <Alberth> the hard-game people will love you :)
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16:25:32  <Snail> hi guys, I just created a new task on flyspray
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16:25:53  <Snail> my idea was to add a variable for trains that counts the tiles that have been traveled since the last visit to a station or depot
16:26:14  <Snail> I wonder if it has ever been proposed earlier?
16:27:24  <LordAro> what would be the purpose of this?
16:27:57  <frosch123> many sets use the amount of days since last service for liveries and such
16:29:07  <peter1138> Hmm, masses of passengers with CDist :S
16:31:24  <Phreeze> masses of passengers, now that they see, they are taking actually to their destination ^^
16:32:06  <Alberth> not really, the tycoon still decides where you can go :p
16:33:14  <Snail> the purpose of this would be to allow some locomotives to travel longer distances than others
16:33:30  <Snail> in the old times, there were small tank steamers that had very little coal and water, and bigger ones that had a larger reservoir
16:33:57  <Snail> so, if you buy a small tank steamer and try to run it over a very long distance, it will slow down after a certain number of tiles traveled, because it will be running out of fuel
16:34:06  <Snail> just something to differentiate engines a bit better
16:34:40  <Snail> “amount of days since last service” would not work, since an engine could stay idle at a signal, therefore using up very little fuel
16:36:17  <andythenorth> Snail: game balancing is over-rated :)
16:36:41  <Phreeze> realism is overrated ;)
16:36:56  <Snail> well, look at it as a way to make small tank steamers cheaper to buy :p
16:37:38  <Alberth> with the amount of cash that you usually have? :)
16:37:56  <andythenorth> just make them cheaper? o_O
16:38:04  <andythenorth> Snail: how many engines do you have?
16:38:08  <Snail> and then no one would buy the bigger ones :p
16:38:27  <Snail> in the NG set, there are a dozen steamers (1880 - 1940)
16:38:51  <Snail> and a few diesel railcars this variable would be useful for as well
16:39:28  <Phreeze> on a long trip, you could add dummy stations
16:39:35  <Phreeze> as "refuel points" then
16:39:40  <andythenorth> Snail: just delete 8 of them. You’ll feel good when you do it.
16:39:56  <andythenorth> 4 is enough for 60 years
16:40:01  <Phreeze> 4 steamers for 60 years ???
16:40:01  <Snail> andythenorth: just don’t use 8 of them if you play with the set :D
16:40:21  <Alberth> but they clutter the buy menu :)
16:40:26  <andythenorth> not just that
16:40:27  <Phreeze> if there are 6 freight 6 passenger, it's ok
16:40:31  <andythenorth> they clutter the grf author’s brain
16:40:39  <andythenorth> too much work trying to ‘balance’
16:40:44  <andythenorth> but there is no ‘balance'
16:40:47  <Snail> don’t worry, my brain is already cluttered enough :p
16:41:07  <Alberth> it's realistic, there is no balance?
16:41:14  <Snail> at the end of the day, it’s a design decision, and every grf author thinks in a different way
16:41:26  <Snail> I think it’s pointless to convince someone to adopt ideas other than his own ;)
16:41:41  <andythenorth> well yes
16:42:02  <andythenorth> doesn’t stop me and Pikka though
16:42:19  <Snail> no need to stop anyone :)
16:42:38  <Alberth> Snail: it may trigger you into reconsidering your initial ideas
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16:43:06  <Alberth> which is never a bad thing, if only to confirm they are still valid
16:43:33  <Snail> I already thought about them, my point is to give the set an array of possibilities the player can choose from
16:44:09  <Alberth> like almost all newgrfs
16:44:22  <frosch123> well, if you ask an ai author, e will likely say it should be done the same as aircraft ranges
16:44:35  <frosch123> no ai can figure out when a newgrf suddenly decreases power after some distance
16:45:30  <Snail> but an ai could use an engine over distances that are smaller or equal than an engine’s range
16:45:42  <andythenorth> the solution is to just build more depots?
16:45:42  <Snail> if the distance is larger, switch to another engine
16:45:43  <planetmaker> omg, a range property for trains? Na
16:45:46  <planetmaker> -1 from me
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16:45:59  <andythenorth> I am +/-0
16:46:11  <frosch123> planetmaker: yeah, would be hard to implement or play with :p
16:46:18  <andythenorth> it would add some extra choices, but ultimately you just build yet more depots
16:46:19  <frosch123> who knows how long a distance is
16:46:26  <andythenorth> the only really challenge is that depot routing is totally borked
16:46:28  <Snail> why hard to play with?
16:46:31  <frosch123> make a detour and then the train is screwed :p
16:46:44  <planetmaker> the same gameplay behaviour indeed can be achieved with day since last service
16:46:51  <Snail> use certain engines for short, suburban trains, and others for longer spans
16:46:52  <frosch123> Snail: if i have a winding track in the hills, who knows how long it is?
16:46:59  <Snail> planetmaker: not really
16:47:05  <frosch123> time is at least something you can measure
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16:47:27  <Snail> because an engine could stay idle at a signal, therefore not using up fuel. So “days” since last service wouldn’t work
16:47:41  <Snail> it’s “distance” (= tiles traveled) that matters
16:48:03  <frosch123> maybe, but neither humans nor ais would figure it out
16:48:20  <Snail> humans would
 why not?
16:48:27  <Snail> you build the line, so you can see how long it is
16:48:27  <planetmaker> no way
16:48:40  <frosch123> yeah, that only works on very flat maps with straight lines
16:48:42  <planetmaker> how do I know how long the windy road accross the mountain is?
16:48:44  <andythenorth> snail, wondering if you can get same result with reliability?
16:48:53  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you can guess at that by eye, tbh
16:48:58  <Alberth> Snail: how long is this track?
16:49:09  <planetmaker> for a curvy irregular path which I can't see at once? Hardly
16:49:31  <andythenorth> it’s longer than 32 tiles
16:49:36  <Snail> planetmaker: this would work only to differentiate “urban” from “not urban” traits
16:49:43  <Snail> of course it depends on how you use this variable
16:49:52  <andythenorth> you wouldn’t use these engines for > 16 tiles or so
16:50:11  <andythenorth> can you just make them viciously unreliable instead?
16:50:14  <andythenorth> gets same result
16:50:34  <Snail> andythenorth: no, because reliability isn’t set back up to max when visiting stations
16:51:01  <Snail> while an engine could refill there (provided a water tower is there, but let’s assume every station has got one)
16:51:03  <andythenorth> ah so it’s station based
16:51:06  <andythenorth> not depot based
16:51:10  <Snail> station and depot
16:51:38  <planetmaker> upping reliability at stations, too, is something I'd be much more in favour of
16:52:00  <planetmaker> also even without, just use proper orders to service your trains
16:52:04  <Snail> in my set, I could differentiate trains with a range of, say, <20 tiles (small tank engines), <200 tiles (tender steamers) and unlimited (electrics)
16:52:12  <planetmaker> 20 tiles?!
16:52:23  <Snail> yes, for urban trains
16:52:36  <Snail> maybe not 20, say 40. I’d have to balance it out. But it would be my jon
16:52:38  <Snail> *job
16:53:04  <Snail> I’d just like to be given this possibility.. if it’s not too hard to program
16:54:24  <andythenorth> shame there’s no vehicle-local storage
16:54:24  <planetmaker> tbh, still  not a feature I'd like to see. It's cryptic to comprehend. Train paths are not predictable when there's several options
16:54:30  <andythenorth> you could just write it yourself
16:54:44  <andythenorth> just check speed each time cb runs, and incrememnt a counter
16:55:51  <planetmaker> even the range property for planes works badly
16:56:02  <planetmaker> and there the distance is easy in comparison
16:56:16  <andythenorth> I find it kind of pointless
16:56:21  <andythenorth> just means building another airport
16:56:36  <andythenorth> it’s as annoying as pathfinding range on ships, which is at least a computational issue
16:56:42  <planetmaker> yeah. And adding 100s of go via stations
16:56:47  <Snail> planetmaker: again, for trains the distance would work dividing the engines in two, such as “short distance” vs. “any distance”
16:57:04  <andythenorth> Snail: what else could solve this for you? o-O
16:57:11  <Snail> of course I wouldn’t program it to force the player to count the tiles...
16:57:29  <planetmaker> what's distance?
16:57:32  <andythenorth> Snail: are you using the animation frame?
16:57:40  <Snail> andythenorth: I’ve thought about it
 I think this is the best solution
16:57:43  <Snail> andythenorth: yes
16:57:47  <andythenorth> nvm
16:57:53  <andythenorth> you could have used it as a counter
16:57:54  <Snail> I mean my steamers are animated. Why?
16:58:02  <planetmaker> how does it behave if I build a straight track, send the train to go and then cut that and send it on a detour of 8k tiles length?
16:58:05  <frosch123> andythenorth: you do to much industries
16:58:10  <andythenorth> I do?
16:58:13  <andythenorth> :P
16:58:14  <planetmaker> what if the shortest route is one-way only?
16:58:22  <planetmaker> and I just flip the signal?
16:58:39  <andythenorth> Snail: would you consider re-coding your set so each ‘vehicle’ is made up of multiple parts, some invisible
16:58:40  <andythenorth> ?
16:58:42  <Snail> planetmaker: then you would need to use an engine with a longer “range”. Simple as that
16:59:02  <planetmaker> Snail, but it already started. now it's on the way, I modify the path. what now?
16:59:04  <Snail> andythenorth: some of my vehicles are already like that
16:59:09  <Alberth> planetmaker:  it gets tricky only when a train causes such detours
16:59:20  <andythenorth> do vehicles have an animation ‘frame’?
16:59:23  <planetmaker> Alberth, easy to devise such setup :)
16:59:32  <planetmaker> or conditional orders
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16:59:43  <planetmaker> if load% > 0 goto short else goto 10k tiles
16:59:56  <Snail> planetmaker: then, since you modified the track, your choice of engine could have been made better...
17:00:08  * andythenorth is wondering if invisible vehicles can be used as storage
17:00:31  <Snail> because in such a context, short-range trains are for short lines only, which shouldn’t be lengthened. If your service might include detours, it’d be safer to buy the longer-range engine
17:01:30  <andythenorth> hmm
17:01:45  <andythenorth> there’s never any profit in arguing with a newgrf author who has a fixed idea :)
17:01:53  <Snail> :D
17:01:54  <andythenorth> speaking from experience :P
17:02:13  <burty> I'm trying to run the ServerGS that I downloaded from the in game content download... I just keep getting "Your script made an eror: the index WID_GS_RESTRICT_LABEL does not exist". I'll post on the forum thread but I was hoping that someone might be able to give me a quicker response here :)
17:02:22  <Snail> well, I thought about this before. The reason why I’m proposing it, is because I couldn’t find any workaround
17:02:27  <Snail> otherwise I wouldn’t be bothering you ;)
17:02:44  <planetmaker> I see really no game play benefit at all
17:02:59  <andythenorth> planetmaker: that’s not the purpose of most newgrfs ;)
17:03:04  <andythenorth> you’re making an invalid assumption
17:03:13  <andythenorth> most newgrfs benefit the author
17:03:32  * andythenorth looks in the extended vars
17:04:19  <Snail> not just the author, but even some players who might think like him
17:04:21  <planetmaker> length restriction itself can be a tool to achieve something. But if the idea is to have long distance trains vs. short distance trains and make it matter, then e.g. load speed vs. driving speed already help nicely to make a difference
17:04:50  <Snail> planetmaker: load speed only matters for wagons or railcars, not locomotives
17:05:10  <Snail> driving speed is more of a thing to differentiate freight vs. pax, and generally increases with time
17:05:15  <andythenorth> we mostly use manhattan distance between stations?
17:05:21  <andythenorth> we don’t pathfind for tile count?
17:05:24  <Alberth> burty: that label got deleted in r26320
17:05:51  <andythenorth> this could be a thing when setting orders, but it would have to be manhattan I would imagine
17:06:03  <andythenorth> and moving the station sign (for example) would be a problem
17:06:06  <Alberth> burty:  about 2 months ago
17:06:35  <Snail> andythenorth: why would moving the station sign be a problem?
17:06:54  <planetmaker> probably andythenorth is right though. I simply should not argue against it. No point :P
17:07:15  <andythenorth> planetmaker: reality is, someone will patch it, or someone won’t
17:07:23  <andythenorth> the amount of stuff that just turns up is quite high
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17:07:35  <andythenorth> the amount of stuff that goes in after long long discussion is relatively low
17:07:40  <planetmaker> station sign determines distance between stations, Snail
17:07:44  <andythenorth> at least, low compared to amount of discussing :P
17:07:55  <Snail> oh, so that would be a problem for AI?
17:08:04  <andythenorth> and if this was a restriction on orders
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17:08:20  <Snail> andythenorth: I see. Well, I wasn’t imaging it as a restriction on orders
17:08:31  <Snail> I don’t know if that would work well
17:08:31  <planetmaker> it's a severe restriction
17:08:45  <planetmaker> AIs fail already on plane orders when they're restricted in range
17:08:50  <Snail> yes, so I was thinking about just adding this “tiles traveled” variable, and nothing else
17:08:57  <andythenorth> but at least it would be consistent, if done as range
17:09:03  <andythenorth> not Yet Another Mechanic
17:09:25  <Snail> then, it would be my job, as a newgrf developer, to code certain trains in such a way that they would travel slower when this new “tiles traveled” variable is greater than X
17:09:34  * andythenorth can’t see anything useful in extended vars
17:09:35  <Snail> and to clearly document this in the purchase list
17:09:49  <planetmaker> how do AIs read purchase list?
17:09:54  <Snail> I agree that restricting the orders would be too complex and “dangerous"
17:10:02  <burty> Alberth: oh right. I'll have to try the one thats on the thread then :)
17:10:51  <Alberth> burty: it got replaced by WID_GS_RESTRICT_CATEGORY and WID_GS_RESTRICT_TYPE
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17:11:05  <Snail> planetmaker: AIs could perhaps read this “X” (maximum distance) for each train and then only use an engine if the distance between the stations it will serve is greater than “X”?
17:11:24  <Alberth> although I fail somewhat in understanding what a GS needs with the advanced settings window :)
17:11:42  <planetmaker> Alberth, it's needed e.g. for tutoriaGS
17:12:11  <Alberth> a ServerGS?  :)
17:12:18  <andythenorth> what’s the max value of motion counter var?
17:12:49  <planetmaker> very big. but NML's might be broken
17:13:02  <planetmaker> Alberth, hm... ServerGS probably not :)
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17:13:46  <andythenorth> Snail: if the motion counter is big enough, and your distance is short enough, that might work
17:13:56  <Snail> planetmaker: not a problem for me, I don’t use NML
17:14:31  <Snail> andythenorth: how would it work?
17:16:42  <planetmaker> I was also talking to andy...
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17:45:54  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26459 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2014-04-12 17:45:43 UTC)
17:45:55  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:56  <DorpsGek> catalan - 2 changes by juanjo
17:45:57  <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 10 changes by siu238X, xiangyigao
17:45:58  <DorpsGek> traditional_chinese - 1 changes by siu238X
17:45:59  <DorpsGek> finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
17:46:00  <DorpsGek> russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
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18:22:54  <andythenorth> Snail: motion counter is a 32 bit value
18:23:09  <andythenorth> if I’ve understood correctly that could be used to count tile motion
18:24:08  <andythenorth> hmm it’s not reset when visiting depot probably
18:26:06  <frosch123> you cannot change power or something on open track anyway
18:26:11  <frosch123> it will desync
18:26:31  <frosch123> you cannot change cached values at random times
18:26:50  <Snail> frosch123: but for instance, I can change TE upon entering a track of a different railtype
18:26:51  <frosch123> so, changing stats fails anyway, no matter what var
18:26:57  <Snail> and speed as well...
18:27:05  <frosch123> yes, track change updates the cache
18:27:19  <frosch123> but not normal driving
18:27:36  <Snail> I see
 not even entering a new tile?
18:27:52  <planetmaker> that would halt OpenTTD to a crawl
18:28:09  <planetmaker> frosch123, thinking of something like for map cache?
18:28:17  <planetmaker> (No usage yet made of it in the patch)
18:29:39  <frosch123> "bits 0...9" ?
18:29:56  <planetmaker> max. value we can get from the function as-is-implemented is 0x200
18:30:34  <frosch123> is there a need to bit stuff that in the first place?
18:30:41  <frosch123> it's not going to the savegame
18:30:51  <peter1138> Don't forget to add a few uint32s to store track usage counters...
18:31:04  <planetmaker> no. But it's an uint16 and we could add other stuff in the remaining bits? Or just leaving them blank?
18:31:27  <planetmaker> would be waste of 6bits per tile
18:31:31  <frosch123> don't safe space if there is no need to :)
18:31:41  <frosch123> there is no reason for saving space here
18:31:49  <frosch123> that was the point :p
18:31:56  <peter1138> Why do you need to cache water distance again?
18:32:08  <planetmaker> even not when considering speed?
18:32:14  <frosch123> anyway, do you want to use ReInitWaterDistanceCache in some other module?
18:32:15  <planetmaker> peter1138, better shipping lanes
18:32:17  <frosch123> else it could be static
18:32:29  <frosch123> or if you like more c++, those functions could be static members of TileCache
18:32:45  <planetmaker> for now it can be static, yes. I'm not sure whether it needs to be called for large-scale landscaping
18:32:53  <peter1138> Not using water class for that?
18:33:04  <frosch123> water class is troublesome
18:33:13  <frosch123> water class is very different from distance to coast
18:33:15  <planetmaker> that's more a pain.
18:33:28  <planetmaker> I tried that first, peter1138 and it gets very ugly
18:33:41  <frosch123> planetmaker: i guess static member functions would look fance, e.g. TileCache::UpdateWaterDistance
18:33:49  <planetmaker> the gain is also much more limited than just caching coastal distance
18:34:03  <planetmaker> aye, I guess I could go that way, yes
18:34:56  <peter1138> How often do you need the coastal distance?
18:35:16  <frosch123> when using the pathfinder all the time
18:35:22  <planetmaker> peter1138, the idea is to differ between coastal vessels and trans-ocean vessels
18:35:31  <planetmaker> and then the PF...
18:36:43  <peter1138> Seems like a shed load of effort for a feature nobody is going to use.
18:37:00  <Snail> “the idea is to differ between coastal vessels and trans-ocean vessels”
18:37:15  <peter1138> BAD FEATURE or something heh
18:37:23  <planetmaker> BAD indeed
18:37:26  <Snail> how different is it from differ between short-distance tank steamers and long-distance tender steamers? :p
18:37:35  <planetmaker> very
18:37:40  <planetmaker> it's the track type, Snail
18:37:42  <Snail> ok, tell me how :)
18:38:04  <planetmaker> and railtypes are there at your disposal :)
18:38:13  <Snail> you mean we have different “water types"?
18:38:14  <andythenorth> there’s an existing distinction via canal / sea speed fraction
18:38:19  <planetmaker> we do
18:38:21  <andythenorth> but it’s of limited use
18:38:34  <Snail> meaning canal vs. sea?
18:38:34  <peter1138> WaterClassses are roughly the water equivalent of RailTypes, so...
18:39:01  <andythenorth> ships can set different speeds for canal (& river) or sea
18:39:10  <frosch123> planetmaker: on second though, maybe storing the complete distance is a bit too much; limiting it to storing distances < 64 or something would allow incremental updates
18:39:16  <planetmaker> I won't argue that the thing, if finished, is of marginal gain. But it's fun to do :)
18:39:25  <frosch123> peter1138: water classes are fixed on map construction
18:39:27  <NGC3982> Evening.
18:39:28  <andythenorth> I think the canal / sea speed fraction is a BAD FEATURE
18:39:36  <andythenorth> but as it exists, I feel obliged to use it
18:39:36  <frosch123> they are stored in industry tiles, exposed to newgrf and whatever
18:39:36  <planetmaker> that was my first thought, too, frosch123. I even thought of like 16 tiles
18:39:41  <NGC3982> Sea speed fraction?
18:39:54  <andythenorth> how is this news to everyone? :P
18:39:58  <frosch123> you cannot just add a 5th one, not would it solve the problem here
18:40:13  <frosch123> planetmaker: 16 is also fine
18:40:20  <planetmaker> frosch123, it would. If they dynamically changed or got re-computed
18:40:34  <planetmaker> but that's way more messy... they're used in many, many places :)
18:40:42  <peter1138> Whatever happened to more height levels?
18:40:52  <peter1138> (Can you guess where I'm going?)
18:41:02  <planetmaker> yes, I do. I quoted that option earlier today :P
18:41:27  <planetmaker> (more height levels with neg. height or offset)
18:41:31  <frosch123> height levels were not updated for long
18:41:40  <frosch123> multiple sea level never made it anywhere
18:41:58  <peter1138> Was a long time ago. Was nice :p
18:42:00  <planetmaker> peter1138, but that's not an exclusive thing, can even be complementary
18:42:23  <planetmaker> the cache is transient. Height levels are part of map
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18:42:34  <andythenorth> I just want to say now...
18:42:44  <peter1138> TMWFTLB? :D
18:42:47  <planetmaker> so if there's height levels which define deep sea... fine. For shipping purposes they then can take over coastal distance
18:42:54  <andythenorth> I can fix the gameplay issue in Squid without needing the whole map rewritten

18:42:57  <peter1138> Andy will use the feature, but never release anything with it :D
18:43:02  <frosch123> i doubt height levels for sea will ever happen :p
18:43:14  <andythenorth> peter1138: I refer you to the bundle server :P
18:43:27  <frosch123> the patch from r10k or something shows issues which will hardly get solved
18:43:32  <planetmaker> frosch123, *if* we get MHL, then one level for deep/shallow sea surely would be possible :)
18:43:44  <andythenorth> if you’re having fun with this carry on
18:43:45  <frosch123> nope, that's my point
18:43:58  <andythenorth> otherwise I just take the speed penalty off the river boats when at sea
18:44:00  <frosch123> multiple level flooding is silly/broken at best
18:44:03  <andythenorth> problem solved
18:44:23  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I'm (currently) not rewriting the map. I'm just adding caching for frequently-used values. And this is one way it can be used
18:44:24  <frosch123> there were patches to raise the sea level in the past
18:44:41  <andythenorth> planetmaker: :)
18:45:42  <andythenorth> what counts as ‘release’ these days anyway?
18:45:51  <andythenorth> bundles?  bananas?  alpha in forums?
18:45:59  <andythenorth> v1.0?
18:46:28  <planetmaker> well, release fish2/squid anyway :)
18:46:48  <planetmaker> make a new release if and when I finish this toy :P
18:47:04  <andythenorth> the only thing blocking Squid are some ugly ships
18:47:09  <andythenorth> I could turn them off
18:47:42  <planetmaker> draw some flowers on them, then they're beautiful. Hippy-class steamer ferry
18:49:19  <planetmaker> brb
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18:59:32  <andythenorth> Snail: if you could find some storage, you could use the motion counter and 80+ var 16 (station index)
18:59:45  <andythenorth> but I don’t know if anyone has found a way to do storage on a vehicle
18:59:51  <Snail> hmm
18:59:57  <Snail> I’ll try to see if I can do it
19:00:20  <Snail> but I guess the problem here is caching, since I can’t change a vehicle’s top speed while it’s in motion
19:00:28  <Snail> and CB32 doesn’t help either
19:00:31  <andythenorth> I wonder if there are cb36 props that you could abuse on invisible vehicles
19:00:34  <andythenorth> for storage
19:00:42  <andythenorth> they only change occasionally
19:00:49  <frosch123> there is no storage for vehicles
19:01:01  <frosch123> stuff only changes triggered by the player
19:01:02  <andythenorth> frosch123: you could set a property and then later read it?
19:01:09  <andythenorth> cb36, change at station
19:01:13  <andythenorth> never tried
19:01:19  <andythenorth> would have to be on invisible vehicle
19:01:31  <frosch123> there is no storage :)
19:01:37  <frosch123> the best you can get is a desync
19:02:02  <frosch123> by abusing caches
19:02:09  <andythenorth> so I couldn’t use, for example, TE value as storage?
19:03:37  <andythenorth> supposed to be 0 for articulated parts, so no dice
19:03:59  <andythenorth> use the offset values on visual effect?
19:05:10  <frosch123> when joining a game everything is reset
19:05:22  <andythenorth> ah
19:05:26  <frosch123> so everything that you cannot tell from the vehicles being on the track is lost
19:05:33  <frosch123> and any differences will result in a desync
19:05:53  <andythenorth> Snail: “limitations are good” ?
19:05:54  <andythenorth> :P
19:06:49  <Snail> well, limitations that let the player explore the set in its entirety are good IMO :p
19:07:05  <Snail> otherwise you’d always go for the “fastest, most powerful” engine :)
19:07:23  <Snail> but then again, some people will say my set will be full of BAD FEATURES. Oh well
19:09:23  <andythenorth> can’t be helped
19:12:45  <Snail> :)
19:21:59  <planetmaker> V453000's thread should have been titled "what are bad features if you want to play a transportation game". The bad features are not bad if you want to build a simulation game.
19:23:12  <andythenorth> v is a diplomatist
19:25:20  <planetmaker> that's putting it diplomatic :P
19:25:24  <planetmaker>
19:25:44  * andythenorth is also a diplomatist
19:25:47  <andythenorth> famously
19:27:01  <Phreeze> lol
19:27:08  <frosch123> i such cases i am always disappointed that dorpsgek has no full shell syntax
19:27:28  <frosch123> i would like to visualise diplomacy using "users | xargs kick"
19:29:41  <planetmaker> :)
19:42:45  <LordAro> frosch123, patch it :p
19:43:34  <Phreeze> how do you all sort your trains in newgrfs ? i'm not sure if i should sort by engine, then name
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19:43:41  <Phreeze> or just date of appearance
19:44:01  <frosch123> sort them by type of usage
19:45:50  <planetmaker> yup. Type of usage is best. That cannot be done by filter
19:46:05  <planetmaker> date, power, speed,... all possible anyway
19:46:45  <planetmaker> destroys my usual behaviour though to look at the bottom of the list after lengthy scrolling ;)
19:46:47  <Phreeze> type of usage -> freight or passenger ?
19:47:08  <planetmaker> whatever usage groups you have
19:47:22  <frosch123> pax/freight, strong/fast, local/distance
19:47:22  <planetmaker> express pax, local pax, light fright, heavy fright... dunno :)
19:47:22  <Phreeze> there isn't any more in OTTD^^
19:47:31  <Phreeze> ah k yeah
19:47:40  <planetmaker> oh, there definitely is. Depends on how you design your stats
19:48:20  <Taede> just look at nuts, there's a half a dozen classes just for rail
19:48:56  <planetmaker> I just wanted to suggest a conversation with Mr Bad Features ;)
19:49:42  <planetmaker> lists all classes, though
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19:52:48  <Phreeze> wetrail wtf
19:52:53  <Phreeze> i should try that nuts grf once xD
19:53:08  <Taede> yeah, if you include the nuttier classes, you get over a dozen i think
19:53:31  <frosch123> only 11
19:54:00  <Phreeze> i dont have as much engines
19:54:05  <frosch123> and the 11th class is no class, but just the vehicles which fit no other class
19:54:26  <planetmaker> wetrail is no crazier than pipeline or powerline rail ;)
19:54:30  <Taede> still a lot
19:54:56  <Alberth> the various PURR tracks add up quickly
19:55:04  <Phreeze> 22 from 1954+
19:55:22  <Phreeze> i havent started to draw steamers
19:55:30  <Phreeze> it's a pita ^^
19:55:47  <Alberth> you have many rail types available, all the time
19:56:17  <frosch123> well, if you have a realism-based set, you will likely have "distant pax", "local pax", "light freight", "heavy freight", "mountainous freight"
19:56:50  <frosch123> depending on origin, maybe less freight classes and more diverse local pax
19:56:52  <Phreeze> ah i see now that i can give the trains an ID by inclkuding an int in FEAT_Trains function
19:57:09  <frosch123> you should give them an id anyway
19:57:18  <Phreeze> i just left it away, it will then take the order as i coded them
19:57:20  <frosch123> the id is what matters for savegame compatibilty when updating your set
19:57:28  <Phreeze> oh ok
19:57:35  <Phreeze> can i start at 1000 ?
19:57:40  <planetmaker> sure
19:57:43  <frosch123> if you don't give an id, you break stuff when reording your code :)
19:57:48  <Phreeze> i think if i take 20 or so, it may mess up with original trains
19:58:03  <planetmaker> but the actual ID does not matter at all. Just do it sequentially, starting at 1
19:58:07  <Phreeze> still so much to learn and discover..
19:58:24  <planetmaker> It also doesn't matter for sorting. You can define sorting separately
19:58:46  <andythenorth> planetmaker: good article
19:58:50  <planetmaker> it's just a number important for savegame compatibility. Which doesn't matter for anyone except those who develop it ;)
19:59:43  * andythenorth goes in 10s
19:59:46  <andythenorth> :p
19:59:53  <andythenorth> for articulated parts reasons
20:00:01  <andythenorth> but don’t pay attention to what I do
20:00:45  <frosch123> everyone should learn some "traditional basic", just to learn about how to deal with numbers :)
20:01:01  <andythenorth> I learnt Basic
20:01:08  <andythenorth> dunno if it had types
20:01:17  <planetmaker> not sure anymore either.
20:01:26  <planetmaker> 10: DIM A 30
20:01:36  <planetmaker> 20: A = "blah blah"
20:01:37  <andythenorth> ha, I’d forgotten DIM
20:01:38  <frosch123> 10 $andy = $input
20:01:59  <frosch123> planetmaker: i don't think there were colons
20:01:59  <andythenorth> I just made swearwords in random color
20:02:04  <andythenorth> over and over again
20:02:09  <andythenorth> no colons
20:02:10  <planetmaker> I totally forgot the syntax
20:02:14  <andythenorth> I have BBC Emulator here
20:02:26  <andythenorth> there is BeebEm for OS X
20:02:29  <planetmaker> it's like 20+ years ago I wrote GW basic...
20:02:48  <andythenorth> oh you probably never had BBC micro computers outside of UK :P
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20:03:55  <Phreeze> thats old
20:04:02  <frosch123> oh, it's "andy$", not "$andy"
20:04:03  <Phreeze> i only started with some 386 i think
20:04:21  <Phreeze> dont know if i touched a 286 before
20:04:40  <Phreeze> the 386 had 25mhz and a 14 inch scren, vga !
20:05:24  <frosch123> planetmaker: 24 for me :p
20:06:19  <frosch123> Phreeze: at least you know the times with a "turbo button" :)
20:06:44  <andythenorth> did that turn on the maths co-processor?
20:06:48  <andythenorth> why was it ever turned off?
20:06:49  <Alberth> andythenorth: I had one
20:06:50  <Phreeze> yeah, but "turbo" was always on
20:06:51  <andythenorth> some stuff crashed?
20:06:51  <frosch123> though it was actually a turbo switch at the back(!) of the 8088 i had
20:06:59  <Phreeze> in fact it was more a "unpress to slow down"
20:07:18  <frosch123> andythenorth: it was a hardware daylength patch
20:07:19  <Phreeze> 486 dx 50 went down to 25 by unpressing
20:07:33  <Phreeze> i had to turn it off for 1 game
20:07:44  <andythenorth> 2Mhz 6502
20:07:46  <Pinkbeast> We had 486/66s that went down to 8 with turbo off, supplied with half of them wired up the wrong way round, endless comedy
20:07:56  <andythenorth> 32KB
20:08:22  <Pinkbeast> At least you got to play with most of that 32K in MODE 7 :-)
20:08:25  * andythenorth is actually old
20:08:27  <Alberth> yep, unless you used mode 0, which ate 20KB
20:09:04  * Pinkbeast is going to strongly dispute the idea that having used the Beeb makes you actually old, albeit with a transparently self-serving motive
20:09:05  <planetmaker> we're playing the MHz downscale game? I can only offer 10 MHz minimum for my first computer, a 286
20:09:11  <Phreeze> mode7, for SNES ;)
20:09:30  <planetmaker> with turbo key which toggled it to 12 MHz. I really wondered what people thought they were useful for
20:09:46  <Pinkbeast> Phreeze: It's also the teletext mode for the Beeb - no graphics, just words and colours, but only 1K. Text adventures used it.
20:09:47  <planetmaker> turbo was indeed always on
20:10:08  <frosch123> we should tell people who want a daylength patch to get a computer with turbo switch instead
20:10:14  <planetmaker> hahaha :)
20:10:26  <Phreeze> in fact, the turbo was a BAD FEATURE
20:10:34  <Phreeze> we can close the topic now xD
20:10:36  <frosch123> or when their 4kx4k map runs slow: press the turbo button on the back of your prc
20:10:39  <frosch123> -r
20:10:47  <planetmaker> that's good advice
20:10:58  <planetmaker> if it's not there, it's inside the chassais
20:11:04  <Phreeze> it's funny how the turbo is used nowadays
20:11:09  <Pinkbeast> Even on a 486/66 some DOS games ran a bit stupidly fast
20:11:12  <Phreeze> even laptops overclock themselves.i dont like it
20:11:44  <Phreeze> some years back, AMD build processors with locked multipliers so you couldnt overclock them...
20:12:13  <Phreeze> (only with silver-compound or a pencil)
20:13:13  <planetmaker> well, i7 also auto-overclocks itself on one core, if the rest is idel
20:13:16  <planetmaker> *idle
20:13:21  <planetmaker> but that's not a button I can press
20:13:58  <Phreeze> yeah, not as cool
20:14:13  <Phreeze> i always like the digital number on the PC
20:14:16  <Phreeze> showing the mhz :)
20:14:27  <Phreeze> later i build a LCD Panel for that ;)
20:14:59  <frosch123> haha, the digital display with the old power button was silly actually
20:15:08  <peter1138> MODE 7
20:15:09  <frosch123> it looked as if the computer really displayed something
20:15:24  <frosch123> but it was just hard wired what bits to light when the button was down or up
20:15:40  <Phreeze> shhhhht
20:15:50  <Phreeze> i changed the turbo off LEDs later ;)
20:15:59  <Phreeze> was 25, i modded to 75
20:16:11  <Phreeze> so it went from 50 (turbo on) to 75 (tubo off)
20:16:19  <Phreeze> friends were just WOOOOOWing :D
20:16:25  <frosch123> :p
20:16:42  <frosch123> that sounds like some serious computer skills
20:16:47  <Phreeze> HAX
20:17:00  <frosch123> how to make your computer run faster
20:17:12  <frosch123> bridge these two pins on the lcd panel
20:17:16  <Phreeze> *look like it could run faster*
20:17:38  <Phreeze> in fact, my pentium 60 board was awesome: a jumper set the mhz. i just put it to 75 :)
20:17:53  <Phreeze> was 50 60 75 i guess, not sure what the lower number was
20:18:58  <Phreeze> can someone explain me how Tractive effort is calculated by openttd?  i didn't define it, but it shows up. Can i modify that manually too ?
20:19:17  <planetmaker> set the property
20:19:53  <frosch123> in the grf you set the friction coefficient
20:20:08  <frosch123> ottd computed the te by multiplying that with the weight
20:20:24  <planetmaker> has the actual explanation in the property description
20:23:08  <Phreeze> hm i see i see
20:23:24  <Phreeze> i think i'll live with the ottd calculated ones
20:26:21  <andythenorth> they’re ‘correct'
20:26:33  <andythenorth> I only change them to dibble specific vehicles for game balance
20:28:29  <Phreeze> i'm just preparing tracks and vehicles for a screenshot of all the vehicles....
20:28:34  <Phreeze> WHEN A UFO LANDS ON THEM
20:31:18  <andythenorth> bye
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20:31:48  <frosch123> Phreeze: photo bombing :)
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20:47:52  <planetmaker> <-- you meant more to go this way, frosch123 ?
20:55:36  <Alberth> void ReInitAllMapCaches()   needs a doxygen comment
20:55:52  <Alberth> please add a "." at the end of evry sentence in the docs
20:56:11  <planetmaker> true, thank you :)
20:56:18  <Alberth> it is allowed to have single line comments if you like     /** ... */
20:58:36  <Alberth> whether the patch is a good direction, is a question I cannot answer :)
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21:01:51  <planetmaker> well, I probably should introduce caching first for something we already need
21:01:55  <planetmaker> like town distance or so
21:02:51  <frosch123> planetmaker: yeah, but as "static" members
21:03:02  <frosch123> they do not use "this", but affect all
21:03:45  <frosch123> you also do not need the c-function then
21:04:37  <planetmaker> you mean the ReInitAllMapCaches() is not needed then?
21:04:43  <frosch123> yes
21:05:11  <frosch123> you can directly call TileCache::ReInitAll() then
21:05:46  <frosch123> it uses TileCache as namespace more or less
21:06:40  <planetmaker> aye
21:15:35  <Phreeze> another ufo now lol
21:15:41  <Phreeze> was just letting the game run
21:15:59  <frosch123> it lands on track, if you have only few track pieces, it will land there :)
21:16:09  <Phreeze> but every few years ?
21:16:33  <Phreeze> hey, tracks with an engine on it, are not destroyed after the xcom avenger comes ;)
21:17:37  <frosch123> well, your trains also stop in front of the ufo, instead of running into it
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21:22:21  <Phreeze> they are stopped ^^
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21:38:28  * peter1138 accidentally makes this shit more complex :(
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21:41:49  <Phreeze> damn winrar cant create TARs
21:42:07  <Phreeze> any way to create a tar with windows without installing additional zippers ?
21:42:34  <Taede> i use 7zip for all my compression needs
21:42:43  <frosch123> why would you want to create a tar in the first place?
21:42:54  <Taede> tar is just storing info, no compression though
21:43:00  <Phreeze> 7zip is like the best, but the interface is so fugly, that i prefer not to use it ^^
21:43:08  <Phreeze> i KNOW what a tar is..
21:43:28  <Phreeze> don't the newgrfs should be in a TAR ?
21:43:48  <frosch123> bananas also takes zip if you mean that
21:43:57  <Phreeze> ah ok ;)
21:44:02  <frosch123> it processes them into tars after validating the content
21:44:07  <Phreeze> i just updated my old lunames grf...
21:47:18  <frosch123> why does winrar still exist?
21:48:49  <Phreeze> cause it's better than winzip
21:49:00  <Phreeze> and has a modern looking UI
21:50:05  <glx> but 7zip is free
21:51:37  <Phreeze> free is relative on the webz ;)
21:54:29  <planetmaker> frosch123, thinking of caching of the coastal distance. Wondering what update policy should be done
21:54:49  <planetmaker> should it only be updated when actually queried. Keeping a list which says which values are current
21:55:09  <planetmaker> or always keep the cache list up to date?
21:55:43  <frosch123> i believe the most efficient way (though maybe not the easiest), is to mark an area in the cache as invalid when clearing water or when flooding
21:55:50  <frosch123> and the recompute the value when accessing
21:56:12  <frosch123> though you can recompute multiple tiles better than single ones
21:56:14  <planetmaker> ok, that was my thought, too.
21:56:28  <planetmaker> the 'not all tiles always but only when needed'
21:56:35  <planetmaker> could re-compute an area then
21:58:30  <frosch123> but well, as usual: 1. make it work, 2. make it good, 3. make it fast :)
21:58:43  <planetmaker> :D
21:59:10  <frosch123> "preempty opimisation is the root of all evil"
21:59:33  <frosch123> (i would address them all to d.e.knuth, but i have actually no idea)
21:59:43  <frosch123> s/preempty/pre-emptive/
22:00:32  <planetmaker> hm, yeah :)
22:00:37  <planetmaker> could be
22:01:32  <planetmaker> wiki says you're right ;)
22:01:47  <planetmaker>  Knuth, Donald (December 1974). "Structured Programming with go to Statements". ACM Journal Computing Surveys 6 (4): 268. CiteSeerX:
22:03:36  <frosch123> oh, it's "premature", not "preemptive" :)
22:06:32  *** Hazzard_ is now known as Hazzard
22:07:41  <Phreeze> released my CFL Trains Set to bananas, feel free to test and punish me with devastating comments ;)
22:08:09  *** idl0r [] has joined #openttd
22:12:55  <Phreeze> afk bed ;)
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22:31:17  <planetmaker> he... "File too big (~104K)" from hgview for town_cmd.cpp :P
22:35:40  <planetmaker> - a clear case of caching without caching ;)
22:35:46  <planetmaker> bed time now, though. Good night.
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22:47:45  <LordAro> how regularly is updated? it seems to be behind...
22:47:56  <LordAro> only by 11-28 hours though
22:49:44  <peter1138> Seems up to date for me.
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22:51:22  <LordAro> it's weird, the gitweb seems to be updated, but pulling it results in r26455
22:51:52  <peter1138> (svn r26459) -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
22:53:15  <LordAro>  (svn r26455) -Change: Prompt for confirmation when deleting a vehicle group.
22:55:23  * LordAro tries a new checkout
22:57:31  <LordAro> that's better
22:57:32  <LordAro> weird
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23:32:55  <Wolf01> 'night all
23:33:04  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
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