Log for #openttd on 3rd May 2014:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:05:31  <Wolf01> 'night all
00:05:40  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
00:08:15  *** LSky [] has quit []
00:09:44  *** Aristide [~quassel@2a01:e35:2eb9:64b0:c105:762b:7ab0:9578] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:25:19  *** Brumi [] has quit []
00:42:38  *** Hazzard [] has joined #openttd
00:44:00  *** andreaa [~andrea@] has joined #openttd
00:51:55  *** andreaa [~andrea@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:00:40  *** valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
01:01:30  *** Midnightmyth [] has joined #openttd
01:05:21  *** Aristide [~quassel@2a01:e35:2eb9:64b0:c2:8ff:fec1:936b] has joined #openttd
01:14:27  *** eLbot [] has joined #openttd
01:15:38  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
01:15:43  *** Haube [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
01:27:40  <Samu> what is the maximum days timetable can register?
01:27:54  <Samu> autofill on timetable just got 20 days, that's not right
01:28:05  <Samu> it took way way longer
01:34:35  *** Samu [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
01:36:00  *** KWKdesign [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
01:36:03  *** KWKdesign [] has joined #openttd
01:42:14  *** Supercheese [~Superchee@] has quit [Quit: Valete omnes]
01:42:44  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has joined #openttd
01:54:03  *** JoeBrown [] has quit []
02:10:25  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has quit [Quit: I'm out for now, but you are invited to try AdiIRC: enjoy it!]
02:17:14  *** Supercheese [~Superchee@] has joined #openttd
02:20:00  *** Jomann [] has joined #openttd
02:22:19  *** abchirk_ [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
02:23:24  *** ABCRic [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
02:24:39  *** MJP [] has quit [Quit: That's all folks!]
03:01:21  *** KWKdesign [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:01:42  *** KWKdesign [] has joined #openttd
03:14:09  *** Midnightmyth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
03:47:13  *** Flygon_ [] has joined #openttd
03:47:14  *** Flygon [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
03:52:51  *** Flygon [] has joined #openttd
03:52:52  *** Flygon_ [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
04:56:01  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit []
04:56:16  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
05:10:16  *** _2rB [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
05:10:16  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:29:31  *** Hazzard [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
05:33:55  *** _2rB [~IRC@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:34:25  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
05:54:33  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
05:55:35  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
05:57:00  <planetmaker> moin
06:00:07  *** pthagnar [] has joined #openttd
06:21:13  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
06:24:21  <Flygon> Menta
06:29:07  *** Dan9550 [] has joined #openttd
06:51:25  <George> do I understand it right, that var e$ and E8 do not work in OTTD?
06:51:46  <George> (E4)
06:52:25  <planetmaker> for what? Trains?
06:53:29  *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has joined #openttd
06:53:32  *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ
06:55:28  <planetmaker> o/
06:55:42  <planetmaker> Alberth, thanks for helping Owen yesterday :)
06:55:54  <Alberth> moin
06:56:12  <Alberth> yw :)
06:56:30  <Alberth> not sure what most buttons mean, but this one I could manage :)
06:56:41  <planetmaker> :)
06:56:52  <planetmaker> George, can you remind me what those vars are supposed to do?
06:56:56  <George> planetmaker: yes
06:57:07  <George> power and weight
06:58:07  <George> created task FS#6004
06:58:14  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
06:58:24  <George> planetmaker: is there any workaround?
06:58:34  *** lskynl [] has joined #openttd
06:58:42  <planetmaker> you usually know your power as you set it either via property or callback?
06:58:50  <George> No
06:59:18  <George> two engines provide P=P1+P2
06:59:48  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
07:01:16  <George> Making every engine know the power of other ingisnes in the set woud be hard, making the same in case several sets work togather - impossibl
07:01:57  <lskynl> morning
07:02:04  <planetmaker> in reality one engine doesn't know the other in a consist either. They simply all pull the train
07:02:10  <planetmaker> that's how it also works in OpenTTD
07:02:37  <planetmaker> (I still don't understand the problem)
07:03:18  <George> I can't check current power and weight of the consist in the code
07:03:38  <George> Currently I'm working on running costs for xUSSR set
07:03:55  <Flygon> Hmmmm
07:03:58  <Flygon> That'd be interesting
07:04:04  <George> RC depends on the amount of weight per power
07:04:06  <Flygon> Cheaper per-loco operation with Diesel MUs
07:04:15  <Flygon> But more expensive per-loco for each Steam loco coupled
07:04:34  <Flygon> Could force real stratergy for 1800s Steam games
07:04:49  <George> so, in case there is only 1 engine I need only the consist weight (RC higher when consist weights more)
07:05:12  <planetmaker> George, but the totall weight and the total power is taken into account in train operation
07:05:25  <George> in case 2 or more engines I also need power to divide weight between engines
07:05:46  <George> planetmaker: And what?
07:06:00  <George> That does not affect RC calculation
07:06:15  <planetmaker> I still don't understand what problem you try to solve. What's RC calculation?
07:06:29  <George> running cost factor callback
07:06:49  <George> I need to calculate value for CB
07:07:08  <George> And it depends on current speed, weight, power
07:07:41  <George> and I CAN'T get current weight and power - tha's the problem I have
07:14:12  <planetmaker> I'm sure those variables can create extremely nice infinite loops when used in callbacks
07:14:50  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
07:15:19  <planetmaker> yet, reading train properties can make some programming much easier...
07:23:29  *** _2rB [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
07:23:29  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:27:09  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
07:27:09  *** _2rB [~IRC@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:33:20  *** Supercheese [~Superchee@] has quit [Quit: Valete omnes]
07:51:16  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
07:52:50  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
08:01:55  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:02:32  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
08:04:37  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
08:07:27  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:07:43  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
08:10:59  *** oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
08:13:27  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has joined #openttd
08:15:20  *** Samu [] has joined #openttd
08:15:53  *** Devroush [] has joined #openttd
08:17:20  *** Devroush [] has quit []
08:18:28  *** modicum [~marsipanW@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
08:18:42  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [] has joined #openttd
08:23:06  *** Snail [] has quit [Quit: Snail]
08:24:34  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
08:29:16  *** _2rB [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
08:29:23  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:46:12  *** Phreeze [] has joined #openttd
08:46:13  *** _2rB [~IRC@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:46:56  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
08:48:59  <Phreeze> hi
08:50:26  <Alberth> moin
08:55:56  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
08:57:37  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
09:00:46  *** valhallasw [] has joined #openttd
09:03:12  <Samu> hi
09:07:52  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:08:48  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
09:12:39  *** lskynl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:14:20  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:15:30  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
09:15:49  *** lskynl [] has joined #openttd
09:16:28  *** Midnightmyth [] has joined #openttd
09:18:10  *** SylvieLorxu [] has joined #openttd
09:22:13  *** chrswk [~chrswk@] has joined #openttd
09:23:50  *** lskynl [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
09:24:02  *** lskynl [] has joined #openttd
09:25:02  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:25:42  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
09:39:50  *** Flygon_ [] has joined #openttd
09:39:50  *** Flygon [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
09:42:47  *** LA [] has joined #openttd
09:44:32  *** LA is now known as Madis
09:44:41  <Madis> good morning
09:49:13  <Phreeze> hi
09:50:35  *** fjb is now known as Guest8478
09:50:37  *** fjb [] has joined #openttd
09:57:55  *** Guest8478 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:05:00  <George> frosch123: While OTTD actually support var F4, - and does it support F8? And if no - what var contains weight?
10:10:59  <Samu> finally finished what I was doing yesterday. This and this
10:11:51  *** montalvo [] has joined #openttd
10:13:01  *** Flygon [] has joined #openttd
10:13:02  *** Flygon_ [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:13:03  *** Brumi [] has joined #openttd
10:16:16  <Samu> resuming my research: original acceleration is equivalent to realistic acceleration with x2 weight and 10% steepness in most cases
10:16:25  *** _2rB [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
10:16:41  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:16:44  <Samu> achievement complete! that was the goal of this research
10:18:41  *** Flygon_ [] has joined #openttd
10:19:33  *** Flygon [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:22:34  <Samu> oh ya, i didn't show the empty results... realistic acceleration favours it quite too much, no matter the combination of settings
10:23:13  <Samu> other than that, realistic acceleration is quite customizeable
10:24:47  <Pinkbeast> Some of the early diesels seem to lose out quite badly there.
10:27:57  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
10:28:00  <Wolf01> hi hi
10:28:24  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
10:32:36  <frosch123> George: what kind of graphics depend on weight and power?
10:33:27  <frosch123> just in case you want to use those vars in callback 36 to change other vehicle stats: it will not work. recursive property definitions do not work
10:35:59  <Alberth> hi hi
10:40:40  <Samu> empty load, going downhill mostly: and
10:41:01  <Samu> i figured I should show these graphs too for better judgement
10:41:57  <Samu> oops, i missed the x3 10%
10:43:26  <Samu> there:
10:43:40  <valhallasw> Samu: try a 2D heatmap to plot it (locos on one axis, model on second axis, value as color)
10:46:18  <Samu> sorry, i dont know what you mean, i can give you the excel file though
10:47:33  <Samu> bings 2D heatmap
10:48:24  <valhallasw> Samu: sure! pastebin it somewhere, or mail it (valhallasw at gmail) and I'll see what I can do :-)
10:48:30  *** montalvo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
10:51:40  <Samu>
10:51:54  <Samu> think you can download it from there
10:52:23  <Samu> be careful with kirby paul, it was getting some biiiig results, I excluded it then
10:52:36  *** _2rB [~IRC@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
10:52:39  *** KWKdesign [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
10:52:43  <Samu> autofill was timing it incorrectly
10:53:56  *** montalvo [] has joined #openttd
10:54:06  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
10:57:12  *** LA [] has joined #openttd
10:57:17  *** LA [] has quit []
11:01:17  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:02:19  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
11:03:13  *** Madis [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
11:05:55  *** yorick [] has joined #openttd
11:08:47  <andythenorth> o/
11:10:52  *** Flygon [] has joined #openttd
11:10:52  *** Flygon_ [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:11:45  *** montalvo_ [] has joined #openttd
11:13:04  *** Midnightmyth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:13:22  *** Flygon_ [] has joined #openttd
11:13:27  *** Flygon [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:14:12  *** montalvo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
11:14:44  * valhallasw fires up IPython Notebook
11:17:10  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:18:01  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
11:20:15  *** Haube [] has joined #openttd
11:32:55  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
11:35:41  <valhallasw> Samu:
11:38:05  <Phreeze> is there a tutorial for "advanced" NML with python etc ?
11:39:24  <Phreeze> i know basic scripting from my university days and some vba..but...yeah...
11:40:27  <LordAro>
11:42:45  *** Haube [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:47:22  *** Flygon [] has joined #openttd
11:47:22  *** Flygon_ [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:48:38  *** Haube [] has joined #openttd
11:48:58  <Alberth> Phreeze: just read the tutorial at (for your version of Python)
11:49:29  <Alberth> other than that, you just have to produce text output exactly as you'd have to enter manually
11:49:45  <Alberth> formatting of the nml is of course less important
11:51:08  <Phreeze> stupid tortoise is not downloading src...gna
11:51:21  <Phreeze> it's "running" with 17 files and stays at 17...
11:52:28  * Alberth gives Phreeze the command-line version of the vcs
11:53:49  <Phreeze> ATARI 2600 vcs ?
11:53:58  <Phreeze> had one as a child
11:54:07  <Phreeze> or more: my parents played with it, before it was cool :>
11:58:36  *** Flygon [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
11:58:50  *** Flygon [] has joined #openttd
12:04:35  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
12:13:55  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
12:15:42  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:17:16  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
12:20:47  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
12:22:01  *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@] has quit []
12:22:33  <Samu> valhallasw: hey, thanks
12:23:12  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:24:32  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
12:25:24  *** MJP [] has joined #openttd
12:29:39  *** SylvieLorxu [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:32:35  *** Midnightmyth [] has joined #openttd
12:33:44  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:35:14  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
12:36:17  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
12:38:09  <andythenorth> Phreeze: I wrote a tutorial for basic python templating
12:38:14  <andythenorth> in forums
12:38:41  <andythenorth> Phreeze:
12:40:52  <Xaroth|Work> tbh, all it really needs is a good library to do all that :P
12:43:13  <andythenorth> nobody wrote one
12:43:26  <andythenorth> and nobody was interested in even trying to define a spec
12:43:41  <Xaroth|Work> how unpythonic of everybody :P
12:43:58  <andythenorth> feel free
12:44:02  <Xaroth|Work> hah
12:44:07  <Xaroth|Work> i have enough libraries to work on
12:44:18  *** Samu [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:44:29  <Xaroth|Work> like libzfs-python
12:45:12  *** Samu [] has joined #openttd
12:45:35  <Samu> lost connection :(
12:46:14  *** Samu [] has quit []
12:46:15  <andythenorth> Xaroth|Work: what would the library do?
12:46:28  *** Samu [] has joined #openttd
12:46:28  <Xaroth|Work> andythenorth: libzfs or lib..grf?
12:46:41  <andythenorth> lib.grf
12:46:44  <andythenorth> or lib.nml
12:47:05  *** Twofish [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
12:47:39  <Xaroth|Work> take python objects, turn it into nml (or even better, directly to grf)
12:48:26  *** Twofish [~IRC@] has joined #openttd
12:50:09  <andythenorth> I think it would be hard to do well.  If it’s too clever it will only serve limited needs.  If it’s too sparse, newbies won’t be able to use it.
12:50:22  *** Samu [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
12:50:36  * andythenorth speaking as someone who has written one library for pixel generation, and chose deliberately not to do that for nml
12:51:05  *** Samu [] has joined #openttd
12:59:46  <frosch123> Xaroth|Work: better output to nml, that increases the chance that someone may even remotely consider to debug it
12:59:49  <Alberth> just split nml in a frontend and a backend :p
13:15:08  <Samu> my internet today :(
13:17:13  <andythenorth> if I was doing a library, I’d provide classes for each vehicle type
13:17:26  <andythenorth> with all the standard properties etc
13:17:40  <andythenorth> and then provide some way for authors to subclass from those for customisations
13:17:46  <andythenorth> but it’s all hot air tbh
13:19:58  *** gelignite [] has joined #openttd
13:20:54  <Samu> when you press ' you write b instead
13:20:57  <Samu> funny
13:27:44  <Samu> ctrl-click to follow vehicle doesn't work on zoom out levels, intended?
13:28:08  <peter1139> Yup, but I don't know/remember why.
13:29:13  <Samu> it is a cool feature
13:29:19  *** Natio [] has joined #openttd
13:30:06  <Samu> you could make the main menu background game follow a vehicle
13:30:27  *** Midnightmyth [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:31:50  <Samu> would give it a bit of immersion or so
13:37:47  <andythenorth> motion sickness :)
13:37:52  *** Natio [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
13:38:36  *** sla_ro|master [] has joined #openttd
13:43:49  <Xaroth|Work> vomit comet \o/
13:44:20  <Samu> :(
13:44:32  <frosch123> is that a fork of rct?
13:44:48  <Xaroth|Work> gheh
13:45:05  <Xaroth|Work> that used to be the name of the most insane coaster i could build in rct :P
13:45:22  *** Godde [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
13:45:29  <Phreeze> lol
13:50:27  <Eddi|zuHause> <George> I can't check current power and weight of the consist in the code <-- let me reiterate the problem to check whether i understand it: you're in the running cost callback, and want to know the weight and power of the whole train? this stuff is usually cached in the front engine, so it should be easy to make a 0x40+ variable
13:54:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, 0xF4 contains "cached_power" already
14:00:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see a cache for weight
14:01:27  <Eddi|zuHause> ah uint weight = this->gcache.cached_weight;
14:04:01  <Eddi|zuHause> "    [TTDPatch] With realistic acceleration: negated total weight of the vehicle, including cargo; without realistic acceleration: full acceleration value" <--- wtf does that mean?
14:04:56  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
14:05:47  <Eddi|zuHause> that description makes no sense whatsoever... why would you negate the value?
14:05:56  <Rubidium> something like: real_accel ? -weight : max_speed ?
14:06:11  <Rubidium> hmm, probably not max_speed
14:06:12  <Eddi|zuHause> and does that mean binary negation (~) or numeric negation (-)?
14:06:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: no, this->acceleration
14:07:37  <Rubidium> yeah..
14:07:58  <Eddi|zuHause> at least that's how the actual acceleration code uses it
14:08:05  <Rubidium> real_accel ? -weight : power / weight * 4 (clamped to 1..255)
14:09:05  <Eddi|zuHause> again: why the fuck would you negate the value?
14:09:46  <Rubidium> < 0 ? oh... it's just weight : hmm, it's power divided by weight
14:12:33  <Samu> cant build company headquarters... company headquarters in the way. I'm just trying to move it one tile to the right :(
14:13:07  <planetmaker> easy fix... move it twice
14:13:13  <Samu> ya
14:16:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: do you agree that this variable would be stupid and useless, and there should be a new 0x40 variable instead?
14:20:30  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
14:23:25  <Samu> i had a random idea for clone vehicle
14:23:52  <Samu> the way I do needs 4 clicks, it could be reduced to 3 clicks
14:24:36  <Xaroth|Work> amount of clicks is less important than how intuitive something is :)
14:24:43  <andythenorth> +1
14:24:44  <Samu> click clone vehicle > click station name (this part should open the list of vehicles that are going to that station immediatelly)
14:25:01  <andythenorth> one weird thing is that I can clone a vehicle that is not depot
14:25:05  <Samu> it -1 click
14:25:10  <andythenorth> but not using the vehicle’s own clone method
14:26:34  <Samu> click cloen vehicle > click station name > click vehicle list going to station > click vehicle to clone , 2nd and 3rd actions could be merged, sometimes I don't have the view on the vehicle I want to clone
14:27:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium, George:
14:28:23  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm, missing "break"s
14:29:58  <Eddi|zuHause> updated
14:30:21  <Samu> if im cloning from a road depot, it would open the list of road vehicles on the station should that station be also for a train or aircraft, I think it's possible to do
14:30:27  <Rubidium> I'm not seeing why one would use such a messy variable
14:37:08  <Eddi|zuHause> alternative:
14:37:55  *** Pensacola [] has joined #openttd
14:40:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: i don't see anyone ever using that feature
14:41:04  <Samu> i use it very often
14:41:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean in the way you want it to work
14:41:47  <Samu> it can work both ways
14:42:05  <Samu> if i click clone vehicle then click a vehicle, it clones that vehicle right away
14:42:25  <Eddi|zuHause> it can, but it's certainly not worth the effort
14:42:26  <andythenorth> it’s bizarre tbh :)
14:42:44  <andythenorth> we should just provide the clone button on vehicle window even if not in depot
14:42:51  <Eddi|zuHause> you can open the list first and then clone from the list already
14:42:53  <andythenorth> dunno why we don’t
14:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because we don't know where to build it
14:43:25  <andythenorth> and this is why
14:43:27  * andythenorth will be quiet
14:43:30  <Eddi|zuHause> building stuff in a random depot was possible, but removed because it's stupid
14:44:12  <andythenorth> +1
14:47:04  <Samu> im gonna make a video
14:47:04  <Samu> just for the heck of it
14:47:21  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the point?
14:47:46  <Eddi|zuHause> even if someone was bored enough to implement that, i don't see it getting accepted...
14:47:49  <Samu> will chop it on the 2nd action
14:48:47  <Samu> strange that you don't see how quick it can be
14:50:47  *** oskari89 [] has quit []
14:52:03  <Alberth> click on the train instead of the station
14:56:25  <Samu> it's not when I'm seeing the vehicle when it comes useful
14:56:53  <George> frosch123: I want to use weight and power to calculate running cost factor
14:57:22  <Samu> for instance, i have a bunch of trucks going to a station
14:57:44  <Samu> but the station where they were loading is still filling up with cargo
14:58:09  <Samu> I can already do it in 4 clicks
14:58:15  <andythenorth> open station window, open depot, use ctrl-clone
14:58:21  <Samu> my suggestion was merely reducing one click
14:58:32  <andythenorth> I don’t see how you eliminate a click
14:58:39  <Samu> that would need a vehicle in the depot
14:58:50  <andythenorth> just click on the station’s vehicle list
14:58:51  <Samu> I have them all out already
14:58:57  <Samu> yes exactly
14:59:21  <Samu> that's the auto-merged click when clone vehicle action is the current cursor
14:59:25  <Samu> that's my suggestion
14:59:35  <andythenorth> so now you break clone for everybody :(
14:59:41  <andythenorth> it’s a dumb suggestion :)
14:59:49  <andythenorth> in the nicest possible terms :)
15:00:02  <andythenorth> you want to completely change the current behaviour
15:00:17  <Samu> no, it can work with both behaviours
15:00:24  <Samu> it only depends on what I click
15:00:29  <George> Eddi|zuHause: if you expect my testing you need to provide win 32 executable ;)
15:00:40  <andythenorth> also how does openttd know which station vehicle list is supposed to be opened?
15:00:59  <Samu> you click on the station
15:01:02  <Eddi|zuHause> George: we've been there a number of times. i can't provide such executables :p
15:01:04  <Samu> already with the clone vehicle
15:01:37  <George> Someone else can?
15:01:41  <andythenorth> so you want a new button on depots?
15:01:49  <Samu> i think I need to make a video
15:01:54  <andythenorth> ‘clone from vehicle list of station \/‘
15:02:08  <Samu> the clone vehicle button is from the depot
15:02:23  <andythenorth> but you need a new button
15:02:32  <Samu> how? it's already there
15:02:37  <andythenorth> the current button clones, it doesn’t open station vehicle list windows
15:02:46  <andythenorth> if you make it do something different, it doesn’t clone
15:02:57  <andythenorth> and then we have months of angry forums
15:03:18  <Samu> it behaves like a normal left click right now
15:03:29  <Samu> when i don't click on a vehicle, it opens stuff
15:03:43  <Samu> opens windows
15:04:27  <andythenorth> so you want to add a new mode
15:04:41  <andythenorth> when clone tool is active, clicking on station opens station’s vehicle list
15:04:52  <Samu> yes! yup
15:05:01  <andythenorth> it does save a click
15:05:07  <Samu> yes, that's all it do
15:08:05  <Alberth> how to know which vehicle to clone from the list?
15:08:26  <Samu> the origin depot type
15:08:29  <Alberth> in general, there are many different vehicles with different orders arriving at a station
15:08:44  <Samu> if its road vehicle depot, it opens road vehicle list
15:08:57  <Alberth> if it's electrical, you can have 2 types
15:09:35  <Alberth> yeah, so some coal trucks go to A, and some other coal trucks go to B, I want A, how to know that from the list?
15:10:11  <Samu> that needs more clicks or knowledge of what your vehicles are going
15:10:17  <andythenorth> Alberth: you see them in the list
15:10:28  <Alberth> I cannot click, as that would be a clone
15:10:28  <andythenorth> it’s just changing which of the current windows open when clone tool is active
15:10:50  <andythenorth> it saves a click, it’s not a dumb idea, but dunno if it adds anything except confusion :)
15:11:11  <Samu> :)
15:11:24  <Alberth> andythenorth: but it just displays a truck, no way to know which one to clone, in general
15:11:52  <Samu> i usually click on the station which has the cargo to load
15:11:57  <Samu> not on the destination
15:12:09  <Alberth> doesn't matter
15:12:55  <Alberth> you get a bunch of vehicles in the list, and without further checking, you cannot find out which one you want to clone
15:13:35  <Alberth> except in the case when you bring everything to the same destination, but that's an exception
15:13:42  <andythenorth> Alberth: you read the orders (for ships anyway)
15:13:58  <andythenorth> I am -1 to this idea, but cloning is not fun :P
15:14:12  <andythenorth> that RV screenshot I posted yesterday was a lot of painful cloning
15:17:01  <Alberth> ha, you cloned all those trucks, and then complained it was too busy? :)
15:20:24  <Alberth> hmm, it doesn't allow deleting of a save game, wtf?
15:26:58  *** Progman [] has joined #openttd
15:30:36  *** montalvo [] has joined #openttd
15:33:00  *** montalvo_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:35:18  <andythenorth> Alberth: yup :)
15:35:26  <andythenorth> trying to see if I could do it without ships or trains
15:35:32  <andythenorth> I won, but it was painful
15:35:43  <Alberth> :)
15:36:04  <Alberth> but you won! :D
15:36:51  <Samu> i made the video anyway: - guess where I chopped it
15:37:11  <Phreeze> why put videos on onedrive, theres youtube for that :)
15:37:19  <Phreeze> that dynamic quality shit sucks
15:37:41  <Samu> google sucks
15:37:54  <Samu> dynamic quality, what is that?
15:38:07  <Phreeze> it's what onedrives uses
15:38:14  <Phreeze> it shows the video in a bad quality
15:38:36  <Samu> that's my quality
15:38:38  <Phreeze> then after seconds, it sees: oh he can download faster, and augments the quality
15:38:47  <Phreeze> why "google" sucks ?
15:38:48  <andythenorth> Alberth: did we ever discuss consists, in the past? o_O
15:39:09  <Alberth> at least once, less than a week ago?
15:39:18  <Samu> when google merged youtube accounts with theirs, I lost access to my youtube account
15:39:19  <Samu> thx to google
15:40:22  <Samu> i needed a google account to delete my youtube account, seriously enervating about it, that I decided I wouldn't use youtube ever again
15:40:23  *** Snail [] has joined #openttd
15:40:33  <Phreeze> no
15:40:35  <andythenorth> lo Snail
15:40:40  <Phreeze> you just have to switch to the other account samu
15:40:45  <Snail> hey andy
15:40:55  <Samu> I didn't have a google account
15:41:06  <Samu> they wanted to merge with something that didn't exit
15:41:07  <Samu> exist
15:41:09  <Phreeze> no android phone ? :)
15:41:11  <Phreeze> fail per se ;)
15:42:53  <Samu> the quality was supposed to be good, but I see
15:43:07  <Samu> that red looks like pale red
15:43:22  <Samu> the green grass is too bright
15:44:02  <andythenorth> ugh
15:44:11  * andythenorth rediscovers ‘refactor_this.less’
15:44:12  <andythenorth> :(
15:44:26  <andythenorth> oh the humanity
15:44:32  <Samu> using handbrake to convert
15:45:12  *** Hazzard [] has joined #openttd
15:46:00  <DorpsGek> Commit by alberth :: r26554 trunk/src/fios.cpp (2014-05-03 15:45:54 UTC)
15:46:01  <DorpsGek> -Fix(r26489): Use last address of the destination buffer.
15:48:00  <Alberth> old crap has a way of turning up at the worst moments :)
15:49:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: is that related to the file not writable stuff?
15:50:16  <Samu> i reported that bug
15:50:34  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: no, it was related to the comment of andy
15:51:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant the commit
15:51:26  <Samu> offtopic: what you think of this video quality - i'm using the save handbrake preset
15:51:33  <Samu> same*
15:52:15  <Phreeze> with quality i mean resolution
15:52:18  <Phreeze> its like 300x200
15:52:22  <Phreeze> then it dynamically adjusts
15:52:23  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: oh, I got "unable to delete file" when deleting a file
15:52:41  <Phreeze> but again: use a free video website ;) like vimeo or so
15:53:00  <Samu> can't you increase it to fullscreen?
15:53:04  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: just reading FS#6002, and I am currently wondering where the "File is not writable comes from"
15:53:24  <Phreeze> it doesnt matter if full screen or not ... damn you dont get it
15:53:29  <Phreeze> i'll screenshot it for you ;)
15:53:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the forum thread made it sound like it's not setting the filename correctly
15:53:39  <Samu> good, i need to see
15:53:45  <Alberth> mine was empty on deletion :)
15:53:49  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: so it might be trying to write to "emtpy string" or something
15:54:06  <Samu> because it's onedrive, it's like dropbox, I deposit files there, it shouldn't convert them
15:54:20  <Samu> it's a 1920x1080 video
15:54:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: use a lossless codec?
15:57:10  <Snail> just wondering
 anyone out there still using ttdpatch?
15:58:00  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause:  I can save in both versions
15:58:28  <Samu> lossless lagarith? i shall try it for openttd
15:58:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: someone said saving only worked on win32, not win64
15:59:00  <Samu> for other more animated high fps videos, lagarith isn't too fast as xvid
15:59:09  <Samu> i was using xvid
15:59:55  * Alberth uses linux 64 bits
16:00:00  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: i only know ZMBV, but i never tried to make a video with it
16:00:17  *** retro|cz [] has joined #openttd
16:01:00  <andythenorth> Snail: silence...
16:01:04  <andythenorth> Wallyweb probably
16:01:07  <Snail> :)
16:01:26  <Snail> coz I’m tempted to use a feature in my code, that’s not supported by ttdpatch
16:02:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i've never ever even considered TTDP compatibility
16:05:46  <andythenorth> I considered it
16:05:56  <andythenorth> right after I finished smoking crack
16:08:05  <andythenorth> hmm
16:08:10  <andythenorth> time for a break from work
16:08:24  <andythenorth> has anyone made a new GS yet? o_O
16:08:34  <andythenorth> or do I have to play SV *again* :P
16:09:52  <Samu> eddi, plz post a screenshot of how u see the video
16:10:07  <Samu> Eddi|zuHause:
16:10:20  <Samu> trying to find out why this color change in the resulting video
16:11:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i have not watched the video
16:11:36  <Samu> oh, it's Phreeze , soz
16:11:40  <Eddi|zuHause> but in general colour changes in jpeg because it's so lossy
16:11:53  <Samu> it was captured as YV12
16:12:06  <Samu> then transcoded using handbrake
16:12:18  <Samu> handbrake did change the color, I dunno why
16:12:35  <Eddi|zuHause> it's all jpeg-based
16:13:04  <Eddi|zuHause> discrete cosinus transformation and stuff
16:14:06  <Samu> x264 is the video codec
16:14:06  <__ln___> eeeeeeeenglisshhhhhh, cosine
16:14:09  <Samu> but i see
16:14:14  <Eddi|zuHause> which means things are overlaid with curves, and straight lines blur
16:14:48  <Samu> there's a lossless x264, but I can't see anything with it, don't have a decoder for it
16:18:22  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:20:58  <Phreeze> yay just damaged my gfs phone lcd while replacing the glass
16:21:00  <Phreeze> fuck it
16:22:24  <Eddi|zuHause> why would you do that yourself in the first place?
16:22:51  <planetmaker> just because?
16:24:40  <planetmaker> Snail, I'm not sure whether this channel is the right place to find out :)
16:24:59  <planetmaker> Snail, not exactly new, but George asked some time ago...
16:25:05  <Snail> yeah should place a message on the forums
16:25:32  <Snail> planetmaker: yep remember that. Was wondering if that changed at all
16:25:51  <planetmaker> you'll always have the odd person playing TTDPatch
16:26:17  <Snail> I myself would love to use ttdpatch, if I could on my mac (without emulation)
16:26:22  <Snail> at least to get programmable signals :p
16:27:14  <planetmaker> The question is whether you want to go to great lengths to support both. Or whether you simply branch you code and add OpenTTD stuff in the OpenTTD branch only (or leave-out OpenTTD stuff in that branch)
16:27:15  <Samu> lucky find -
16:27:26  <planetmaker> or simply ignore one of the two
16:28:38  <Snail> right, the problem is that ttdpatch doesn’t seem to support “spriteblocks” with > 255 items
16:29:18  <Snail> and to correctly code push-pull in certain cases I need large blocks of sprites
16:30:04  <Snail> another perhaps unrelated question
16:30:19  <Snail> any thoughts about separating the graphics of a sprite from its offsets?
16:30:28  <Snail> right now we have to define both at the same time
16:31:03  <Snail> so if the same graphics needs to have different offsets (happens with push-pull) you have to load the “real” graphical sprite twice
16:31:21  <Snail> would be much better if we could define the graphics first, then the offsets, and then link them together...
16:33:17  <planetmaker> well, you can... in OpenTTD :P
16:33:53  <planetmaker> extended spritesets for the win
16:35:31  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
16:36:13  <Eddi|zuHause> <Snail> any thoughts about separating the graphics of a sprite from its offsets? <-- i suggested this before, but got shot down
16:36:44  <Snail> heh. On what grounds was it shot down?
16:37:00  <Snail> I think it would be extremely useful for us newGRF developers
16:37:01  <Eddi|zuHause> something about performance
16:37:30  <Snail> hmm
 so having a code that defines 4 times the same graphics is good, performance-wise? :p
16:38:01  <Eddi|zuHause> yes-ish
16:39:17  <planetmaker> Snail, yes. OpenTTD is CPU-limited mostly. Not memory-limited
16:39:30  <andythenorth> what’s the problem with the graphics being specified with offsets?
16:39:53  <Snail> andythenorth: when doing push-pull, you need to change the offsets for the “reversed” (pushing) case
16:39:59  <Snail> while the graphics is exactly the same
16:40:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Snail: imagine i want to make the graphics callback return offsets based on var61, the game has to calculate these offsets (slow) and store these offsets somewhere next to the sprite
16:40:26  <andythenorth> Snail: push-pull is a BAD FEATURE anyway :)
16:40:27  <Eddi|zuHause> so the same sprite may have different offsets depending on where it is drawn
16:40:31  <Snail> so it would be easier and less confusing to define the graphics only once, then define two offsets, and then link graphics + the required offsets
16:40:35  <Snail> andythenorth: LOL
16:41:06  <Snail> Edd|zuHause: yes that’s the point, same sprite, different offsets
16:41:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Snail: so the sprite cache gets much more difficult
16:41:17  <Snail> ok I get it :p
16:41:19  <andythenorth> Snail: how are you defining graphics? o_O
16:41:56  <Snail> andythenorth: currently, you define graphics and offsets at the same time. My idea was to define them separately and then link them. But it looks like this would imply large performance issues
16:42:23  * andythenorth ponders
16:42:32  <andythenorth> Snail: paste?
16:42:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Snail: even if performance isn't the actual problem, it'd be a major change in architecture
16:43:06  <andythenorth> Snail: what templating are you using?
16:43:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Snail: which makes it a hard problem
16:43:09  <andythenorth> m4nfo?
16:43:15  <Snail> andythenorth: yes
16:43:28  <Snail> m4nfo makes it quite easy to define the offsets, you just specify them as a macro
16:43:35  <andythenorth> I would have thought it gets rid of the work for you
16:43:57  <andythenorth> example of some code?
16:44:01  <Snail> it does
 mechanically. But still, the code keeps defining the same graphics, and that’s not so elegant :p
16:44:16  <andythenorth> ach, you don’t worry about reading the generated code
16:44:28  <andythenorth> unless you actually have a performance issue, elegance in the generated code is not a goal
16:44:34  <Snail> ok, this is a diesel engine going “forward” (pulling the train(
16:44:37  <Snail>   set(template({NG_13p2M},BB600cv.png,x(LAYOUT_STANDARD),y(130)))
16:44:49  <Snail> and this is the same engine going “backward” (pushing the train)
16:44:55  <Snail> set(template({NG_13p2M_R},BB600cv.png,x(LAYOUT_FLIPPED),y(130)))
16:45:03  <andythenorth> yeah, that looks quite reasonable
16:45:17  <Snail> different “template” (i.e. different offsets) and different order the sprites are taken in
16:45:28  <Snail> this gets expanded in a large set of NFO code lines
16:45:41  <planetmaker> who cares about that?
16:45:43  <andythenorth> hangon
16:45:46  <Eddi|zuHause> that is somewhat similar to how i do it
16:46:00  <Eddi|zuHause> with the left and right turning angles
16:46:15  <planetmaker> everyone does it that way :)
16:46:55  <Snail> :)
16:47:10  <Snail> Eddi|zuHause: so you have 16 sprites for *all* your vehicles?
16:47:18  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the problem is that andythenorth doesn't actually understand what things do, and just tweaks numbers until it looks right
16:47:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Snail: 24
16:47:30  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: :(
16:47:39  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: andythenorth does have some feelings
16:47:58  <Snail> wow. 24 even for the shortest vehicles?
16:48:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
16:48:22  <Snail> I once thought about that too. But then again. If I did 24 sprites for all, it would take me 30 years to finish my set :D
16:48:51  <Eddi|zuHause> but it makes things way easier code-wise
16:49:24  <Snail> having 24 views?
16:49:26  <andythenorth> Snail: this (34 lines) defines a vehicle,
16:49:33  <andythenorth> and this (1298 lines) is the result
16:49:40  <andythenorth> most of it is whitespace :x
16:49:51  <andythenorth> but I don’t worry about the elegance of that generated code
16:50:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Snail: no, having all vehicles use the exact same template
16:50:15  <Eddi|zuHause>
16:50:25  <Snail> oh, right
16:50:31  <andythenorth> yeah, what Eddi said
16:50:32  <andythenorth> +1
16:50:56  <Eddi|zuHause>
16:50:57  <andythenorth> I accidentally have 2 in my train set, because we switched to 10/8 after we had lots of 8/8 vehicles drawn
16:50:59  <Snail> but how can you do with shorter vehicles?
16:51:17  <Snail> hehe there ya go
16:51:31  <andythenorth>
16:51:36  <andythenorth> shorter vehicles :P
16:51:39  <Eddi|zuHause> the lengths go from 3 to 16
16:51:56  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a basic template for each length, but all use the same offsets
16:52:19  <Snail> but how can you do with push-pull?
16:52:23  <andythenorth> we can’t
16:52:26  <andythenorth> we have articulated vehicles
16:52:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't...
16:52:31  <Snail> sometimes you need to change the offsets for the inverse direction
16:52:37  <Snail> ah I see
16:52:47  <Eddi|zuHause> push-pull is something i decided i won't even attempt
16:52:52  <andythenorth> push-pull, engine-flip and multi-headed engines are all not available to us
16:53:03  <Snail> not even multi-headed engines?
16:53:06  <andythenorth> nope
16:53:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i had a concept for multiheaded articulated engines
16:53:25  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, before I try that (again), I try that in OpenTTD code rather. Or outsource that to you or so ;)
16:53:33  <Eddi|zuHause> but i never got around to implement that
16:53:45  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you could swap the graphics on last vehicle, and set length appropriately?
16:53:47  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: exactly :p
16:54:03  <Snail> but you also need to swap each and every wagon
16:54:14  <Snail> unless their graphics are exactly the same
16:54:15  <andythenorth> and power :P
16:54:21  <andythenorth> and TE and weight :P
16:54:25  <andythenorth> and cargo
16:54:28  <andythenorth> ugh
16:54:38  <Snail> why power, te and weight?
16:54:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but the last vehicle may be a 1-part vehicle and the first vehicle 3-parts
16:54:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: forbid combining with other newgrfs? o_O
16:54:59  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then you go insane
16:55:08  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: we may be at that point?
16:55:12  <Snail> Eddi|zuHause: so code the last vehicle as 3-part too
16:55:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have this mixture in my grf
16:55:25  <andythenorth> oic :)
16:55:30  <andythenorth> I thought you insisted on simplicity :P
16:55:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Snail: the turning stages don't work well if the vehicle parts get too short
16:56:03  <Snail> ah I see
16:56:17  <andythenorth> Snail: convinced yet that the dupliation is ok? o_O
16:56:42  <Snail> andythenorth: :D
16:56:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's simple. it's an array defining: "12: (3,6,3)"
16:57:09  <Eddi|zuHause> so a 12 lu vehicle will have 3 parts
16:57:14  <Snail> Eddi|zuHause: so your UIC coaches are 16/8 long?
16:57:15  <Eddi|zuHause> of these lengths
16:57:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Snail: i think we settled on 13
16:57:37  <Snail> hmm
16:57:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Snail: sets the scale at 2px = 1m in - view
16:57:46  <Snail> interesting. In my scale I’ll use 12 :p
16:58:03  <Snail> heh. Mine is 90cm :D
16:58:38  <Snail> (I tweaked it this way to have UIC coaches (26.4m) to be exaclty 12/8 long)
16:58:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i wanted 16 originally, but there were both optical and gameplay reasons against it
16:58:58  <Snail> Eddi|zuHause: yeah I guess so
16:59:24  <Snail> I think something like yours makes sense. Makes “long” narrow gauge vehicles be 8/8 or 9/8 long. That’s a good effect IMO
16:59:41  <Eddi|zuHause> when deciding on the smaller scale i wanted at least 2x zoom vehicles, but no artist would commit to that
16:59:54  <planetmaker> :(
16:59:56  <Snail> eddi|zuHause: I bet
17:00:06  <Snail> even a rivet-counter like myself had to give it up...
17:00:17  <Snail> don’t get me wrong I’d love to draw vehicles with better detail
17:00:21  <planetmaker> if you go the pikka approach, rendering could work. With some skew / distortion
17:00:23  <Snail> but this is not my day-job :D
17:00:33  <Snail> nah I can’t render to save my life
17:00:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll probably try pixeltool sometime
17:00:45  <Snail> I grew up on Deluxe Paint, so it’s pixel pushing forever
17:00:58  <andythenorth> pixeltool looks like a winner
17:01:06  <Snail> hmm :)
17:01:32  <Eddi|zuHause> it seems like the next logical step up from my crude pixa stuff
17:01:35  <planetmaker> it's a nice tool for sure
17:01:51  <Eddi|zuHause> if i get it to run from the generator script
17:01:53  *** KWKdesign [] has joined #openttd
17:02:02  <Snail> tbh I have too much fun to draw manually
17:02:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i have too much fun generating stuff :p
17:02:53  <andythenorth> pixeltool is a much better solution than pixa
17:02:58  <andythenorth> pixa is fine for recoloring
17:03:05  <andythenorth> and mangling spritesheets
17:03:11  <andythenorth> not for drawing vehicles
17:04:18  <Samu> hey Eddi|zuHause , lossless x264 -
17:04:28  <Samu> converted from rgb24
17:04:43  <Samu> it changed colors, I can't do any better with what i have
17:07:01  <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't really work well if you can't keep the exact resolution
17:07:25  <Samu> download the file then, it should be 1280x720
17:08:37  *** SylvieLorxu [] has joined #openttd
17:08:52  <Samu> it shouldn't be different to what you see in a video player
17:10:08  * andythenorth had better fix RV offsets
17:10:18  <andythenorth> time to tweak some numbers I don’t understand :(
17:11:46  <Samu> the video next to it, is using ZMBV codec i just tried
17:12:03  <Samu> but it can't play on the browser, only if you download
17:12:07  <Samu> it's black
17:12:53  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: offsets could be reverse engineered from ottd vehicle code?  Solving the issue definitively?
17:13:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: offsets are a solved issue. it's not my fault you don't understand the solution...
17:15:31  *** Phreeze_ [~p@] has joined #openttd
17:17:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: maybe the colour change was already in your source material?
17:18:52  *** Phreeze [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:19:27  *** Phreeze [] has joined #openttd
17:22:06  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so where is the solution documented?
17:22:33  <andythenorth> other than cargo-culting from other sets
17:22:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: some of my early templated had dots in them for where the sprite anchor was
17:23:10  <andythenorth> they still in the repo?
17:23:28  <andythenorth> without hunting n old changesets?
17:23:28  <Eddi|zuHause> in some earlier rev
17:23:34  *** Phreeze_ [~p@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:24:36  <andythenorth> meh, I’ll do it by, again
17:24:44  <andythenorth> like I have for the last 6 years :(
17:24:53  <Eddi|zuHause> try rev 81
17:25:09  <Eddi|zuHause> the 16lu template
17:26:34  <Eddi|zuHause>
17:27:02  <Eddi|zuHause> they might not be complete
17:27:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you need different offsets depending on direction
17:28:06  <Eddi|zuHause> cut off the front and back segment if you want to know offsets for a regular 8lu vehicle
17:28:39  <Eddi|zuHause> and only look at every 3rd sprite for the regular views
17:29:04  <Eddi|zuHause> so 1/4/7/10
17:29:04  <andythenorth> so the dividers are 4/8 units?
17:29:08  <andythenorth> and the red dots are?
17:29:09  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
17:29:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the red dots are the back of the vehicle
17:29:41  <andythenorth> the dark dot is the zero point?
17:29:54  <Eddi|zuHause> yes-ish
17:30:43  *** Pensacola [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:30:47  <Eddi|zuHause> on the 8th sprite you see the difference between the offsets for the different directions
17:31:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i stopped putting down dots when i figured out the system
17:32:18  <andythenorth> for different length vehicles, ottd presumably re-centers the zero point?
17:32:19  <Eddi|zuHause> the ingame sprite aligner helps a lot
17:32:25  <Eddi|zuHause> no
17:32:33  <andythenorth> it doesn’t :o
17:32:41  <andythenorth> that was a major false assumption by me :P
17:32:48  <Eddi|zuHause> it's fixed at the front of the vehicle
17:33:07  <Eddi|zuHause> look at the 3lu template i linked earlier
17:33:36  <Eddi|zuHause> offsets are the same, but vehicle is shifted within the template to match
17:33:40  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not symmetric anymore
17:34:27  <andythenorth> hmm
17:36:06  <andythenorth> did you calculate /measure the resulting offsets for this?  Or did you do it by eye with BB in-game?
17:38:45  <Samu> i created an animated gif, it maintained the original colors
17:39:17  <Samu> strange, usually gid destroys colors
17:39:25  <Samu> gif*
17:40:05  <planetmaker> learn about palette vs truecolour
17:41:43  <Samu> gif-video:
17:41:48  <Samu> should take a bit to start
17:42:15  <Samu> it's 16 MB
17:42:25  *** montalvo [] has quit [Quit: Textual IRC Client:]
17:43:28  *** Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
17:43:34  *** Myhorta [] has quit []
17:44:41  <andythenorth> hmm
17:45:26  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26555 /trunk/src/lang (czech.txt english_US.txt) (2014-05-03 17:45:18 UTC)
17:45:27  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:28  <DorpsGek> czech - 18 changes by Eskymak
17:45:29  <DorpsGek> english_US - 5 changes by Supercheese
17:45:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: then clearly you have some wrong option set in the encoder that screws up the colours
17:46:13  <Samu> so that's.... handbrake
17:46:26  <Samu> ok, thanks
17:46:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know handbrake
17:46:49  <Samu>
17:47:27  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so did you calculate, or set offsets by eye? o_O
17:48:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i tried by eye, then i got fed up and did the calculation
17:48:18  <andythenorth> ok, so it’s a viable route
17:48:37  <andythenorth> I wasn’t going to spend an evening calcultating to then find out you did it by eye :P
17:48:43  <andythenorth> calcultating?
17:48:56  <Eddi|zuHause> get the bounding box, and find the invisible corner
17:49:20  <Eddi|zuHause> that's where your sprite offset needs to be
17:50:00  <andythenorth> right, that’s a simple method
17:51:18  *** oskari89 [] has joined #openttd
17:54:53  <Samu> I always wondered how autosave works when multiple openttds are saving
17:55:06  <Samu> do they screw each other?
17:55:57  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so it’s more measuring on the spritesheet template than calculating?
17:56:37  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: yes
17:56:48  <planetmaker> andy, no, you don't need to. The length is known
17:57:04  <Samu> how does windows manages it
17:57:07  <planetmaker> so you basically can start from there and obtain the rest
17:57:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: in which context?
17:57:48  <Samu> if one autosave slot is being in use and the other wants to save with that name also
17:57:48  <andythenorth> planetmaker: ?
17:58:25  <Samu> concurrent access to the same autosave
17:58:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: in general, while one program writes to a file, every other program is blocked from writing to that file
18:01:14  <planetmaker> andythenorth, if you know the length of the vehicle in LU, and you know how the vehicle scales in / and | views, I'd argue that you can obtain the offsets when you know how it has to be for 8/8 LU vehicle in -- view
18:01:22  <Alberth> depends on the platform :p
18:02:09  <planetmaker> andythenorth, but I have to confess I went for the visual offset-pushing ;)
18:03:35  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you have block-y vehicles, it's simple counting of pixels.
18:04:06  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if your vehicles have weird shapes you have to be a bit more creative
18:08:24  <andythenorth> I am counting pixels right now
18:08:29  <andythenorth> seems to work
18:08:55  <andythenorth> to get correct results I have to do a subtraction from spritesheet crop size
18:10:33  <andythenorth> I think that’s incorrect
18:11:13  <Samu> question: i have 2 docks, in which one of them doesn't accept mail momentaneously, but the ship is going towards both without full orders so it has mail from both docks. How do I tell it to unload part of the mail that is accepted from one of the docks and keeps the other part?
18:11:53  *** TrueBrain [] has quit [Quit: rebot]
18:12:28  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:12:35  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
18:13:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: "unload and leave empty"
18:14:01  <Samu> that means it goes empty :(
18:14:10  <andythenorth> are you using cdist?
18:14:22  <Samu> uh? nop
18:14:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: at the dock that accepts the mail
18:14:59  <Samu> let me try
18:15:22  <andythenorth> trying to route specific cargo without cdist is not a thing
18:16:08  <Samu> i dont know what is cdist, is it a game setting?
18:17:07  <andythenorth> yes
18:17:12  <andythenorth> cargo distribution
18:17:16  <andythenorth> sorry for jargon :)
18:17:41  <andythenorth> right, the - / and \ views are easy to calculate
18:17:50  <Samu> distribution mode for mail: manual
18:17:58  <andythenorth> I always find the | views a total bastard
18:17:58  <Samu> should i change?
18:19:27  <Samu> it's not working as I intend
18:19:48  <Samu> let's say I have 30 bags of mail from dock 1 and 50 bags of mail from dock 2, already loaded on the ship
18:19:55  <andythenorth> Samu: switching on cargo distribution gives you quite a different game play style
18:19:56  <andythenorth> try it?
18:20:08  <andythenorth> you may find it takes a while to adjust :)
18:20:10  <Samu> if docks 1 accepts mail, can't it just unload 50 from the docks 2 and keep the 30?
18:20:19  <andythenorth> the BB for | views is kind of useless
18:20:32  <andythenorth> why can we draw an accurate one for \ and / but not for | ?
18:21:37  *** TrueBrain [] has joined #openttd
18:22:25  <peter1139> Because it can only be aligned to a grid.
18:22:49  <andythenorth> k
18:25:51  <Phreeze> samu they are all unloaded
18:26:02  <Phreeze> with cdist off
18:28:07  <Samu>
18:28:59  <andythenorth> well that was ridiculously easy
18:29:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: if you keep the 30 from dock 1, then you load additional mail from dock 1, and your ship slowly fills up with mail from dock 1, which it cannot unload at dock 2
18:30:59  <andythenorth> what’s the compression ratio for x between – and \ views?
18:31:32  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: 2, if you use 32px view
18:31:44  <andythenorth> I get anything from 0.5 to 0.7 measuring from sprites :P
18:32:13  <andythenorth> ok, so once 8/8 length offsets are known, all the others are just a caculation based on length?
18:32:21  <andythenorth> assuming sensible spritesheet...
18:32:24  <Eddi|zuHause> it should be 0.7-ish if you want to keep perspective
18:32:45  <andythenorth> yeah, so a lot of FISH is wrong because it comes from incorrect renders
18:32:50  <andythenorth> nvm
18:33:01  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you align the vehicle correctly within the spritesheet, the offsets should not depend on length
18:33:26  <andythenorth> iff
18:33:29  <peter1139> sqrt(2)/2?
18:33:51  <peter1139> 1/sqrt(2)
18:33:52  <peter1139> oh
18:33:55  <peter1139> same :p
18:34:46  <peter1139> and offsets should be at the centre of the vehicle
18:34:49  <peter1139> unlike zbase :(
18:39:04  *** DanMacK [] has joined #openttd
18:39:09  <DanMacK> Hey all
18:40:49  <andythenorth> hey DanMacK
18:40:59  <DanMacK> how goes it?
18:41:45  * andythenorth is fixing road vehicle offsets
18:41:57  <andythenorth> don’t attempt that when your test vehicle has a borked spritesheet
18:42:08  <DanMacK> lol
18:43:26  <andythenorth> 4x zoom is a fricking lifesaver for offset checking
18:45:27  <Samu> cargo distribution is confusing, i need to understand what's going on
18:46:29  <Samu> ah I see, i need 3 stations at least
18:47:43  <andythenorth> it’s quite a different way to play
18:48:33  <Samu> 10 bags of mail from this station, 3 wants to go to station 2, 7 wants to go to station 3
18:48:47  <Samu> it still picks the whole 10 bags though
18:51:17  <Samu> interesting, i must play with these settings some time
18:54:28  * andythenorth got the wrong adjustment from 8/8 to 7/8 offsets for — :(
18:54:38  <andythenorth> I subtracted 4, looks like I need to subtract 2
18:54:59  <andythenorth> which doesn’t make sense
18:56:04  <planetmaker> centre-based vs. edge-based, andythenorth ?
18:56:04  <andythenorth> or rather, it makes sense, but it’s now how I understood the explanation :P
18:56:31  <andythenorth> delta / 2 would be the conventional way in all the game engines I used in my murky past
18:56:51  <andythenorth> which would be 2
18:57:35  <Eddi|zuHause> if you centerd it, it would be 2, if you aligned it to the front, it would be 0, if you aligned it to the back it would be 4
19:01:23  <andythenorth> one view is aligned front, one view is aligned back
19:01:45  <andythenorth> 8/8 vs. 7/8
19:02:10  <andythenorth> both 7/8 views require an x delta of 2 wrt to the 8/8 views
19:02:40  <andythenorth> ok I think I understand now
19:03:24  <Samu> omg, the reddit server is funny, so much station spreading it's even hard to follow where the cargo is coming from
19:03:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: this ‘measure the invisible corner’ route is very fast and accurate for / \ views
19:04:00  <andythenorth> thanks
19:04:30  <Phreeze> out for a drink, cyas
19:04:53  *** Phreeze [] has quit []
19:07:46  <andythenorth> DanMacK: so you got a 6/8 long RV open in paint?
19:07:57  <andythenorth> no sprites = no offsets :D
19:09:12  <DanMacK> Got a 7/8...  but I can get a 6/8 :P
19:09:27  <andythenorth> find one we need :)
19:09:50  <andythenorth> ho, they’re all articulated trucks :(
19:10:48  <DanMacK> heh
19:11:00  <DanMacK> There are a couple non-artics
19:11:17  <andythenorth> and tram offsets were ‘special’ last time I tried :(
19:11:24  <DanMacK> hmmm
19:11:38  *** Dan9550 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:12:52  * andythenorth wonders if tram offsets are special, or if the tram tracks are just drawn wrong
19:13:06  <andythenorth> iirc, impossible to align to track for both drive sides
19:16:56  <Eddi|zuHause> just try again with the offsets you now know
19:19:14  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: issue was this
19:19:28  <andythenorth> so maybe just bad offsets :P
19:21:22  <Eddi|zuHause> well you could just provide different sets of offsets depending on driving side
19:22:01  <andythenorth> yup
19:27:01  *** glx [] has joined #openttd
19:27:04  *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ
19:28:02  *** Snail [] has quit [Quit: Snail]
19:41:09  *** Myhorta [] has joined #openttd
19:52:50  *** Pereba [~UserNick@] has joined #openttd
19:55:09  *** DanMacK [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:56:42  <Samu> can openmsx be used for other files than midi?
19:56:49  <Samu> would it play?
19:57:34  <frosch123> no
19:59:14  <Samu> :(
20:00:16  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a really ancient mp3 patch
20:00:27  <Eddi|zuHause> but nobody bothered
20:01:41  <frosch123> disabling the music works, that's all i care about
20:02:06  <Samu> so, only midis?
20:02:19  <frosch123> if you are lucky
20:02:28  <Samu> not even .mod files? they're similar
20:02:29  <frosch123> but in various cases not even that
20:02:40  <frosch123> .mod is nowhere any similar to midi
20:03:31  <Samu> there's still a tracker to play the sounds in order
20:03:32  <frosch123> well, ok, both separate between instruments and notes
20:03:33  <Rubidium> .mod and .mid is just off-by-one on many keyboards, so they must be similar
20:03:40  <Rubidium> just like mp3 and mp4 are similar
20:04:13  <frosch123> mp3 is layer 3 of mp2 or something like that
20:05:31  *** SylvieLorxu [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:05:36  <Samu> is this your page?
20:06:16  <frosch123> no, that is completely unrelated to ottd
20:07:27  <Rubidium> though... on Unix-y OSes it might be possible to run other files than midi by configuring extmidi to be some other music player
20:08:01  <peter1139> extmidi not built on Windows?
20:08:15  <frosch123> though the question arises why anyone would use the internal player anyway
20:08:43  <Taede> hysterical raisins?
20:08:43  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's the "nobody bothered" part
20:09:12  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone who wanted different music and could be willing to care, just used an external music player
20:09:18  <Rubidium> peter1139: nope, it doesn't seem to be ported to Windows' interpretation of signals and the likes
20:09:27  <andythenorth> all games must have a music player
20:09:30  <andythenorth> it’s a law
20:09:43  <andythenorth> in case my OS didn’t have an MP3 player...
20:10:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but i know no game where you could actually change the internal music
20:10:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean "officially"
20:10:40  <peter1139> Heh
20:10:46  <frosch123> there was an era where you could change the music by insertnig a different cd
20:10:52  <peter1139> I remember quite a lot of effort went into a generic music player interface...
20:12:06  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
20:14:23  <frosch123> there was also a time when people were proud of having 10 gb of mp3, of which they have barely heard 10% and barely liked 5% or so
20:14:26  *** Godde [] has joined #openttd
20:14:41  <peter1139> Errrr
20:15:14  *** Godde [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:15:19  *** Godde [] has joined #openttd
20:15:28  <peter1139> So that 83GB directory full of music I've got...
20:15:41  *** Godde [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:17:34  <Alberth> you have some listening to do?
20:19:05  <Samu> lol, i just came accross this:
20:19:21  <Samu> that tunnel doesn't make much sense
20:19:43  <frosch123> why?
20:19:58  <Taede> its no worse than building a bridge to preserve the river
20:20:15  <Samu> it makes the water look too thin after all
20:20:34  <peter1139> I listen regularly. Is it common to not have music collections now?
20:20:46  <frosch123> i am only streaming
20:21:06  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26556 /trunk (source.list src/music/extmidi.cpp) (2014-05-03 20:21:01 UTC)
20:21:07  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: use sources.list to tell a file shouldn't be built for a particular platform
20:21:10  <frosch123> who bothers maintaining a collection if you have a streaming service which is managed by someone else?
20:21:33  <peter1139> Hardly need maintaining.
20:21:38  <Rubidium> streaming is still kinda bothersome in certain situations
20:21:49  <Samu> electrified rails on a tunnel with a river over it, strange realism
20:22:40  <frosch123> i do not listen to music at work
20:22:48  <frosch123> would be pointless anyway
20:23:07  * Rubidium was more thinking of certains travel locations
20:23:36  <peter1139> I would use up my 1GB/month mobile allowance rather rapidly if I streaming everything.
20:23:42  <peter1139> *streamed
20:23:49  <Rubidium> e.g. over( )seas
20:24:20  <Samu> my music collection is 6,36 GB (6.832.728.576 bytes)
20:24:48  *** Godde [] has joined #openttd
20:24:59  <peter1139> Hmm, 2.45GB music sync from Amazon, mostly £0.00
20:25:18  <Samu> mp3, wma, aac, flac and wav
20:25:25  <Samu> all mixed up
20:26:02  <peter1139> Format only matters when it comes to syncing to a portable device.
20:28:23  *** lskynl [] has quit []
20:28:28  <Samu> a bridge over a river is more likely to happen in reality
20:28:34  <Samu> than a tunnel under a river
20:28:47  <frosch123> have you been to hamburg?
20:28:51  <Samu> no
20:29:41  <frosch123> well, there is a popular tunnel under a river
20:30:17  *** DanMacK [] has joined #openttd
20:31:30  <__ln___> even two, it seems.
20:31:38  <__ln___>
20:34:36  <Rubidium> there's also at least one in the Netherlands
20:35:13  <Samu> i dont travel much
20:35:18  <Samu> :(
20:35:19  <Taede> coentunnel in amsterdam
20:36:50  <Taede> and one in rotterdam too
20:37:00  <__ln___> also the london underground crosses thames underground and underriver.
20:37:07  <Taede> and then theres loads of aquaducts too
20:37:13  <Rubidium> that's #2 (Willemsspoortunnel in Rotterdam; merely four tracks wide and half a few hundred meter or so wide river)
20:38:09  <Rubidium> hmm... I should've thought harder
20:38:34  <Rubidium> Keyrail probably has more tunnels under rivers than Prorail ;)
20:38:59  <Rubidium> actually, the Coentunnel in Amsterdam is for cars. The one for trains is the Hemtunnel
20:39:02  <George> [18:27:54] <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium, George:
20:39:23  <George> Could someone provide win32 executable for me?
20:39:42  <Eddi|zuHause> George: that patch is stupid, use the other one
20:40:13  <George> I can't use patchs, I can use win32 executable
20:40:19  <frosch123> Taede: hmm, i have only seen aquaducts near ship lifts or or locks
20:40:29  <frosch123> are there bigger things in nl?
20:40:51  <Taede>,5.8242996,929m/data=!3m1!1e3
20:41:19  <Taede> thats one that springs to mind, as ive traveled underneath a lot
20:41:29  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: Mittellandkanal/Elbe is a large aquaeduct
20:41:51  <Eddi|zuHause> and there are loads of smaller canals in france that have aquaeducts
20:41:53  <Rubidium> Infraspeed/HSL/high speed tracks has two, Keyrail/Betuweroute (incl. "havenspoorlijnen", cargo only routes) has 4 (one under two rivers) and Prorail (normal/other rails) has 4 as well
20:44:51  <Rubidium> although... the question becomes... what is a river and what isn't? For there to be a consideration for a tunnel, the river should at least be navigable by large ships
20:45:16  <Rubidium> and all the rest gets basically a bridge of some sorts
20:47:01  <Rubidium> but I guess I digress
20:47:05  <Taede> so what constitutes a large ship?
20:47:57  <Rubidium> width: > 10 meters, length: > 50 meters, draft: > 5 meters?
20:48:10  <frosch123> isn't ship size measured in whether they fit unter bridges or through canals?
20:48:15  <frosch123> and otherwise as big as possible?
20:48:45  <frosch123> panama-canal-sized ships and such
20:48:55  <frosch123> or elbe-sized ships
20:49:28  <Rubidium> true, but... height is not always a problem
20:50:01  <frosch123> Samu: anyway, considering the images on the web, canals bridges are not particular deep
20:50:07  <frosch123> so nothing wrong with ottd there
20:50:44  <Samu> ok
20:50:51  <Samu> i just found it funny
20:51:01  <Rubidium> ... when there are bascule or swing bridges
20:51:32  <Samu> cargo distribution disables subsidies?
20:52:01  <Rubidium> a number of the Dutch rail bridges have been replaced by tunnels because the bridge needed to "open" too often for the amount of trains that needed/wanted to pass
20:52:08  <frosch123> Samu:
20:52:26  <frosch123> there is water on the top
20:52:53  <Samu> scary thought, so close to electric post
20:53:01  *** Alberth [~hat@2001:981:c6c5:1:be5f:f4ff:feac:e11] has left #openttd []
20:53:03  <frosch123> what? lol
20:53:17  *** tycoondemon2 [] has joined #openttd
20:53:31  <frosch123> better install an umbrella at those lamps :)
20:53:36  <frosch123> in case it is raining
20:53:44  *** Mek_ [] has joined #openttd
20:53:56  <Samu> oh :\
20:54:06  <Taede> if water from the canal/river reaches the electric line, the electric system is what i'd be worried about least
20:54:11  <frosch123> seriously, if that breaks you have other issues :p
20:54:24  <frosch123> there is a lot of water in a canal
20:54:24  *** tycoondemon [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:54:31  <frosch123> enough to flood your town likely
20:54:38  <Taede> and a lot of stones keeping it up
20:54:42  <Rubidium> if the amount of water leaking out of the aqueduct is so large that is exceeds the massive rainstorms under which the catenary still has to work, then... there'll be more problems than just some shorting of catenary
20:55:26  <Rubidium> it might actually be seen as a 'safety' system; shutting down rail traffic before it's fully flooded, but only if it leaks exactly above the catenary
20:56:24  *** tneo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:56:25  <Rubidium> I'd be more scared of foot bridges and morons trying to piss on the catenary than aqueducts
20:56:59  <Rubidium> *queue mythbusters episode* ;)
20:57:33  <frosch123> there is bridge over a railtrack in my town
20:57:47  <frosch123> it has glass "walls" at the sides
20:58:04  <frosch123> which for some reason earthened quite solidly
20:58:09  <frosch123> *are
20:58:09  *** Mek [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:58:58  <frosch123> no idea whether static loads on glass would be likely near catenary
20:59:58  *** tneo [] has joined #openttd
21:00:33  <Rubidium> I guess it's precautionary
21:01:15  *** oskari89 [] has quit []
21:01:15  <Rubidium> in case a catenary breaks and is tossed into the glass
21:02:12  <Samu> is cargo distribution disabling the subsidies?
21:02:38  <frosch123> yes
21:03:30  <Samu> woah, there is a huge difference in profit with this enabled
21:04:25  <Samu> it's only 1/6 of the profit
21:04:25  <Samu> poor AI
21:04:29  <Samu> not ready for this
21:09:44  <Samu> does autoclean no vehicles will kick in if the only vehicle that was available in a company is destroyed by another player?
21:12:20  <frosch123> ofc
21:12:37  <frosch123> ottd has no graveyard for vehicles to remember who murdered them
21:13:00  <Samu> unfair
21:13:15  <frosch123> does it matter?
21:13:34  <Samu> well, not much if the player doesn't come back
21:14:03  <frosch123> puberty is the phase between realizing that life is unfair, and realizing that that is not necessarily bad
21:14:09  <frosch123> or something like that
21:15:20  <Samu> there's pink on my server, he only got a bus now
21:19:26  <frosch123> well, he'll use a tank newgrf next time
21:19:32  <frosch123> and go train hunting
21:28:28  *** Samu [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
21:28:38  *** Samu [] has joined #openttd
21:28:51  <Eddi|zuHause> we should make a newgrf property for that :p
21:29:17  <Eddi|zuHause> "structural integrity"
21:29:21  <Taede> rv_crashes_train instead of other way around?
21:29:37  <Eddi|zuHause> something like that
21:29:53  <Eddi|zuHause> modern lightweight DMUs are frequently destroyed on hitting cars
21:31:48  <Samu> i posted this earlier today, wondering if it's useful for anything
21:32:45  <Samu> i was asking for a way to customize empty loaded trains a bit better
21:32:50  <frosch123> a sheep flock is enough to derail a highspeed train
21:32:53  <Samu> for realistic acceleration
21:33:26  <frosch123> customizable realism sounds cool
21:34:36  *** chrswk [~chrswk@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:34:42  <Samu> for early engine models, realistic acceleration is too good
21:34:54  <Samu> even with weight x3 and steepness 10%
21:35:09  <frosch123> use a vehicle newgrf then
21:35:13  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: only in tunnels :p
21:35:21  <Samu> if I adjust these a bit more, it becomes a bit off-balanced for whenever the trains are full loaded
21:35:52  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: true, there are no level crossings inside tunnels in ottd
21:36:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: that  assumes that "original" is any kind of useful reference value?
21:36:37  *** chrswk [~chrswk@] has joined #openttd
21:36:45  <Samu> yes, but i want to stop using original, I want a similar approach using realistic
21:37:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: that's a nice graph, but it doesn't say there is any actual problem
21:37:45  <Samu> thanks, i have more
21:37:53  <frosch123> we should ottd turn into a pure game platform
21:38:08  <frosch123> remove default climates, default vehicles, default industries, ...
21:38:11  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: like minigames and stuff?
21:38:18  <frosch123> only allow adding stuff via grf
21:38:45  <frosch123> then people would stop comparing stuff
21:38:59  <Samu> let me find the full loaded graph
21:39:02  <Samu> sec
21:39:19  <frosch123> resp. use the comparison result for choosing, instead of as a reason to change
21:39:38  <Samu> here -
21:40:03  *** DanMacK [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
21:41:47  <Samu> then i also have the sum of all days all engines made using a set of settings
21:41:47  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: let me stop you right there and tell you that the last time we changed realistic acceleration to be less effective, we got a large number of complaints that people's savegames were unplayable now
21:42:03  <Samu> :(
21:42:31  <Samu> just change the default for new openttd installations then, I guess
21:42:45  <Samu> or nevermind
21:44:38  <Samu> this graph here adds all days on an example of a pure straight line with no cliffs:
21:45:53  *** Samu [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
21:46:13  <Eddi|zuHause> ... i have rarely seen a less meaningful statistic...
21:46:13  *** Samu [] has joined #openttd
21:46:18  <Eddi|zuHause> ... i have rarely seen a less meaningful statistic...
21:46:47  <Rubidium> you know realistic acceleration was meant to stop trains from dropping their speed a large amount when going up one tile height level and to prevent them from going at 640 km/h through a 90 degree corner?
21:46:47  <Samu> my last graphic i want to show:
21:47:24  <Rubidium> neither of these scenario's is covered in your test, as such... I'd concur with Eddi's conclusion
21:47:29  <Samu> that's full load on the real-game example from the other graph
21:47:57  <Samu> there are no 90 degrees because it is forced as game setting
21:48:04  <Samu> but there are a few turns
21:48:18  <Samu> i can provide savegame if u want
21:48:33  <Samu> do you?
21:48:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: for "realistic acceleration", everything is a curve that has two turns in the same direction within one train length
21:48:44  *** sla_ro|master [] has quit []
21:50:01  <Rubidium> Samu: since it's a setting it's not forced
21:50:24  <Rubidium> but besides that, two close 45 degree corners can make a 90 degree corner as well
21:50:51  <Samu> ah I see, I believe there's a few of those
21:51:18  <Samu> there's also one uphill that is harder to go
21:51:25  <Samu> takes 2 tiles
21:51:35  <Samu> not adjacent, but for the whole composite
21:52:41  <Rubidium> anyhow, those two changes are why the acceleration model is called realistic; it's more realistic than the original one. Later TE got added
21:52:59  <Rubidium> in any case, neither acceleration is 100% realistic
21:53:21  <Rubidium> a) a train doesn't take days to accelerate to max speed
21:53:34  <Rubidium> b) a train doesn't take hundreds of kilometers to accelerate to max speed
21:53:59  <Rubidium> c) a (fast) train doesn't take a few hundred meters to accelerate to max speed
21:54:23  <Rubidium> d) a train doesn't stop instantly
21:55:14  <Eddi|zuHause> e) a train's acceleration is actually affected by weather and stuff
21:55:32  * Rubidium was just writing something along those lines
21:55:36  <Samu> it was a nice research for me anyway, I was looking for the equivalent combination, pretty much just to say that realistic x2 with 10% freight cargo is the best approach to simulate original difficult
21:55:49  <Eddi|zuHause> f) a train's max speed is defined by its braking power more than its acceleration power
21:56:19  <Eddi|zuHause> especially downhill
21:56:26  <Rubidium> pff... trains go at the speed of light
21:56:27  <Samu> the only problem is that there's not much customization for empty-loaded trains going downhill
21:56:51  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: remember that patch that removed max speed from realistic acceleration?
21:56:52  <Rubidium> (for some observers)
21:57:18  <Rubidium> not really, but sounds like infinispeed
21:57:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: if the observers are light particles, then yes
21:57:28  <Rubidium> or close to it
21:59:13  <Rubidium> hmm... time for bed
21:59:16  <Rubidium> night
22:13:46  <Samu> heh i just noticed i missed T.I.M lol
22:13:55  *** chrswk [~chrswk@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:14:05  <Samu> doesn't matter
22:17:08  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Quit: be yourself, except: if you have the opportunity to be a unicorn, then be a unicorn]
22:29:39  <Wolf01> 'night
22:29:43  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
22:34:23  *** DanMacK [] has joined #openttd
22:50:13  *** DanMacK [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
22:54:30  *** tokai|noir [] has joined #openttd
22:54:33  *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ
22:57:37  *** pthagnar [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:00:20  *** tokai|mdlx [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:08:54  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:09:16  <Samu> can river tiles become indestructible one day?
23:10:01  <Samu> treat them like unmovable objects?
23:10:08  <Samu> much like lighthouse tiles
23:11:41  <Eddi|zuHause> if you implement it...
23:12:20  <Samu> oh :(
23:12:25  <Samu> I guess not
23:13:23  <planetmaker> it's open source and patches can be accepted
23:14:40  *** supermop [] has joined #openttd
23:15:16  <Samu> who invented rivers for the map generator?
23:16:30  <Samu> indestructible river tiles can be bad for locks
23:17:07  <Samu> unless the map generator could generate them rivers a bit different
23:17:35  <Eddi|zuHause> you can always reroute the river by canals
23:17:54  <planetmaker> Samu, did you ever build locks on a river and destroy it again?
23:18:12  <Samu> yes
23:18:34  <Samu> it keeps the river tiles
23:19:26  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, how about some smooth jazz?
23:19:56  *** Haube1 [] has joined #openttd
23:19:59  *** dfox [~dfox@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:20:28  *** dfox [~dfox@] has joined #openttd
23:21:10  <Samu> just tried, the river is still a river
23:21:29  <Samu> not a water tile owned by me
23:22:24  *** valhallasw [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:22:39  <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't like smooth jazz, maybe this is more to your liking:
23:22:44  *** Haube [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:25:35  *** Haube [] has joined #openttd
23:31:59  *** Haube1 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:40:42  *** KritiK [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:41:15  <Samu> changing game settings in the middle of a server makes everyone confused, lolol
23:43:29  <Samu> does weight multiplier also apply to trucks? nevermind, I will check it out
23:43:40  *** wakou2 [] has joined #openttd
23:44:26  *** Brumi [] has quit []
23:45:56  <Eddi|zuHause> why would a setting that says "freight train" apply to trucks?
23:47:06  <Samu> ^_^
23:48:36  *** Samu [] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
23:48:44  *** retro|cz [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:50:51  *** yorick [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
23:53:50  *** wakou2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]

Powered by YARRSTE version: svn-trunk