Log for #openttd on 5th May 2014:
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00:28:34  <Supercheese> Oh good lord in heaven, why do some software designers decide to change everything they possibly can when releasing a new version?
00:28:56  <Supercheese> "Let's take the existing user interface and move every single item around, just because we can"
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06:13:22  <V453000> =D
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06:22:20  <DanMacK> Hey all
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06:39:15  <andythenorth> ho ho
06:39:29  <V453000> hoho
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06:40:49  <andythenorth> the funny thing about Andrex is the sense of desperation against
06:40:51  <andythenorth> time
06:41:01  <andythenorth> “urgent” “immediately” etc
06:41:42  <andythenorth> also that he seems to think none of the devs are prepared to admit that most of the game is basically crap :)
06:42:43  <V453000> ?
06:43:17  * andythenorth has been in the forums
06:45:48  <V453000> never a good idea
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07:27:03  <planetmaker> ho ho
07:27:18  <Flygon_> Ho-oh
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07:27:42  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I wouldn't say 'most of the game is mostly crap'. But we definitely can agree on "there's always much room for improvement - on most if not all aspects" :)
07:28:13  <planetmaker>  I mean, we're here. We're here because we must have thought at least at one point in time that the game is great :)
07:29:45  <andythenorth> yes, but now we’re wiser :)
07:29:55  <planetmaker> yeah :)
07:30:13  <planetmaker> but we know that there's a path back to ye ol' days - if we work for it :P
07:30:35  <planetmaker> (though to be honest, we just don't admit, that the path is infinitely long and we only enjoy playing the meta game)
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07:57:56  <Alberth> o/
07:59:43  <andythenorth> o/
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08:34:38  <supermop> still playing on this polish server
08:35:41  <supermop> how do i do separation in trunk?
08:35:46  <supermop> ctrl click something?
08:40:10  <andythenorth> timetables?
08:40:21  <planetmaker> checkout the time table and read the tooltips. It tells you what to click how
08:40:32  <planetmaker> (and no, I don't recall, so that's the only advise I can give)
08:40:40  <andythenorth> I tried to make separation work
08:40:42  <andythenorth> completely failed
08:40:47  <andythenorth> despite precise instructions
08:40:56  <andythenorth> probably Eandythenorth
08:41:19  <andythenorth> I wanted it for ships
08:42:05  <andythenorth> I still don’t really understand timetables :)
08:42:20  <andythenorth> are they intended for the model train people, rather than gameplay? o_O
08:42:55  <planetmaker> it's difficult to get going
08:43:11  <planetmaker> And I believe that's definitely one of the points with 'more room for improvement'
08:43:18  <andythenorth> seems to be for those people who “want to create a realistic map of the UK rail network"
08:43:26  <planetmaker> I also always have difficulty to setup a time table and separate vehicles there
08:43:43  <andythenorth> I just want to have 5 ships in a shared order group and have them auto-separate, using station departures
08:45:14  <andythenorth> instead of wait, rather ‘leave station 20 days after previous vehicle in order group'
08:45:49  <planetmaker> yeah, sounds like one of the typical use cases I employ as well
08:47:14  <andythenorth> I want a cadence of deliveries
08:47:20  <andythenorth> I really don’t care about simulating reality
08:47:35  <andythenorth> in fact, I am anti-caring about simulating reality, it makes my head hurt
08:48:01  <V453000> nice
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08:49:09  <andythenorth> I have enough reality already
08:49:14  * andythenorth considers ebaying some surplus reality
08:49:21  <planetmaker> rabÀÀÀÀ!
08:49:52  <Alberth> pick a ship, open time table, press autofill, wait for the table to fill, and add some extra time for ctachup. When done, pick the first ship that arrives at the first order, and ctrl-click "start date", a window opens with the date of "now". press "set date". Wait for everything to settle
08:49:52  <andythenorth> lost in translation :)
08:50:11  <andythenorth> Alberth: yeah, it’s really intuitive.  I don’t know how I failed at it.
08:50:16  <V453000> pick a ship, open time table, pres autofill, let ship get lost, buy trains
08:50:41  <Alberth> andythenorth: it's trivial! :p
08:52:07  <Alberth> oh, and of course you have to do it all again when you add or remove a ship
08:52:20  <Alberth> have to keep you busy :p
08:52:46  <V453000> :
08:52:47  <V453000> D
08:52:56  <andythenorth> oh, so adding ships breaks it?
08:53:03  <Alberth> afaik it does
08:53:04  <andythenorth> assuming it works at all
08:53:12  <andythenorth> and upgrading models breaks it?
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08:53:43  <Alberth> not sure, with faster models, you'll have more time at the stations I guess
08:53:44  <andythenorth> you know how in parachuting, you just count 10s from previous jumper, then jump?
08:53:47  <andythenorth> that
08:54:31  <Alberth> just buy 20 extra ships instead :p
08:55:16  <V453000> or ignore timetabling as a whole, win win
08:56:20  <Alberth> another valid strategy :)
08:57:07  <planetmaker> hm, I guess I didn't know either that adding vehicles breaks it :)
09:03:28  <andythenorth> with cdist and station-refit, I am using full load a lot less
09:03:33  <andythenorth> and trying to make timetables work more
09:03:57  <andythenorth> ships seem to inevitably cluster, usually to the point where they overlap entirely
09:04:27  <andythenorth> which is ugly
09:04:50  <andythenorth> and screws up the network, because thousands of tonnes of cargo arrive at once, then nothing for months (bad for station ratings)
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09:08:25  <Eddi|zuHause> timetabling solved the clustering for me pretty well
09:11:33  <andythenorth> dunno why it didn’t work for me
09:11:37  <andythenorth> I tried a couple of times
09:11:40  <andythenorth> got bored waiting
09:11:52  <andythenorth> auto-fill on a 500 tile ship route is like watching paint dry
09:11:55  <andythenorth> and ffwd doesn’t work any more
09:12:14  <planetmaker> lol
09:12:31  <andythenorth> still, it’s definitely nice that we build things with fun in mind eh?
09:12:33  <planetmaker> heavy maps are heavy?
09:12:44  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, waiting is a problem
09:12:45  <andythenorth> nah, ffwd is just borked with mavericks
09:12:52  <andythenorth> planetmaker: got mavericks?
09:12:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i always wanted an "estimate" button
09:13:01  <planetmaker> no, sorry, I don't
09:13:18  <andythenorth> nvm.  Anyway ottd is pretty borked on mehvericks
09:13:38  <Eddi|zuHause> and/or automatically recording and just taking the previous roundtrip as timetable if i chose to use one
09:25:07  <Eddi|zuHause> anybody used telepathy for ICQ? i don't see a function to fetch my contact list
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10:18:10  <Samu> when using .png files for heightmaps, i have to prepare the pngs, rotating +45 or -45 degrees, but I think it still deforms the generated map
10:18:25  <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: if ottd had tiles/tick or something as an option for speed units you could roughly estimate it yourself
10:18:54  <Samu> how do I maintain the 1 to 1 aspect?
10:19:24  <Samu> it looks shrinked somehow
10:19:38  <Samu> or am I seeing things where they don't exist?
10:21:21  <Samu> how many pixels do the minimap in-game affect height and width of a generated heightmap?
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10:21:38  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: well, 4096kmh-ish means 1 tile per tick
10:21:58  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: but you don't have an easy measure for distance either
10:22:09  <V453000> Samu: ust make an image of size 512x512 and make a 512x512 map from that?
10:22:12  <V453000> just*
10:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause> only for straight lines
10:23:10  <Samu> i need to create a mosaic .png, not just 512x512
10:23:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: minimap tiles are 1x4 pixels
10:23:41  <V453000> the fuck is mosaic png
10:23:59  <Samu> the shape of the original picture
10:24:05  <Samu> just just a square
10:24:21  <V453000> why dont you rather getseed of the map and generate the same one again?
10:25:27  <Samu> im using a girl to generate, and she becomes a bit shrinked in height or fat in width, guess it's what zuHause said, 1x4
10:26:44  <planetmaker> V453000, getseed only will give the same map with the same version of openttd, the same settings and the same newgrfs
10:26:59  <planetmaker> if you change any, the same result cannot be guaranteed
10:29:59  <V453000> well yeah but it isnt generally that hard to get it about right
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10:40:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: what exactly are you trying to achieve?
10:40:57  <Samu> a girl heightmap with the right proportions
10:41:06  <Samu> nerdy stuff
10:41:46  <Samu> only needs to look good on the minimap
10:44:14  <Samu> it looks to be 3x4
10:44:15  <Samu> not 1x4
10:45:41  <Samu> vertical size must be increased from 100% to 133.33% I think
10:45:48  <Samu> then rotate -45 degrees
10:46:01  <Samu> and have the game to generate clockwise
10:47:22  <Samu> dang, it's not 133.33%
10:47:28  <Samu> it's moar
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10:49:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: well technically the tile is 1x4 visible pixels and a row of invisible pixels
10:49:32  <Eddi|zuHause> so 2x4 is an approximation you could use
10:49:48  <Samu> 2x4?, then 200%
10:49:50  <Samu> brb
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10:57:52  <Samu> Eddi|zuHause: u got that right! looks perfect
10:58:03  <Samu> thanks
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11:06:40  <Samu> original picture size: 1835x2500, adjusted picture size: 4834x4834
11:07:48  <Eddi|zuHause> you might get better results if you scale that to a power of 2
11:09:09  <Samu> the image editor im using doesn't seem to let me make higher images than that
11:09:19  <Samu> gonna try a smaller image
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11:12:18  <planetmaker> image sizes larger than 4096^2 don't make sense anyway
11:12:27  <planetmaker> when you plan to use it as height map
11:16:16  <Samu> i picked a 400x600 image
11:16:29  <Samu> applied 200% vertical, became 400x1200
11:16:51  <Samu> then rotated 45 to the left, became 1132x1132
11:17:16  <Samu> i just suck at math, but does it seems correct?
11:18:47  <Alberth> without computing it, it doesn't look like a weird number
11:19:29  <Alberth> clip to 1024^1024
11:19:42  <Alberth> s/\^/x/
11:21:18  <Samu> i'd post a screenshot but it's not safe for work lol
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11:27:05  <Samu> i found a good image that's safe for work
11:27:12  <Samu>
11:27:19  <Samu> brb
11:34:45  <Samu> done:
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11:36:37  <Samu> any thoughts?
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11:38:55  <Alberth> no relevant ones, I think
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11:41:53  <Samu> this is how I had to prepare the image before creating a heightmap out of it:
11:41:54  <Samu> lol
11:43:04  <Samu> very interesting stuff you got there with the heightmap generator
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11:44:25  <Alberth> the problem of course is that a colour in a random image does not represent height
11:44:49  <Alberth> you'd need a 3d map of the subject
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11:50:42  <Samu> 3d images?
11:50:55  <Samu> wow
11:51:15  <Samu> im only using simple editing tools
11:51:34  <Samu> paint + office picture manager
11:52:30  <Alberth> that will work too, but making a realistic heightmap then is a LOT of work
11:52:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: you need to make sure that higher sections have brighter colours
11:53:42  <Samu> i know, black bakcground with bright colors works wonders
11:54:15  <Samu> darker colors = low height or water
11:54:53  <Alberth> if your gf wears a white t-shirt with some print on it, the print will be lower, while in reality, it equally high as the t-shirt
11:56:45  <Samu> I see, i can try to be selective on the images that works best, I know that either a very bright background can also be problem
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11:57:08  <Samu> or do a bit of editing if it really bothers me too much
11:57:18  <Samu> or invert colors
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12:17:37  <supermop> for some reason i can't join the polish server anymore
12:18:03  <Eddi|zuHause> now your shoes will never be shiny again!
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12:25:27  <Flygon> supermop: Did you upset that Polish Food Joint in Albion?
12:27:18  <V453000> did they ban you from the server for building too many trains?
12:27:20  <V453000> happened to me once
12:28:02  <Flygon> You can get banned for building too many trains??
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12:37:44  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000 has a way to stand opposite of everybody else's view :p
12:39:01  <supermop> nah keep getting a network error right as it finishes downloading the map
12:40:42  <V453000> well admittedly they had a hard time connecting :P
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12:46:21  <Eddi|zuHause> downloading took too long? computer too slow?
12:46:41  <V453000> computer too slow. :)
12:46:59  <V453000> 2000+ trains isnt fun for pc
12:46:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i meant supermop
12:47:02  <V453000> aha
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12:47:43  <supermop> computer doesn't usually seem slow, was having no trouble running that game and map earlier today
12:48:14  <Samu> download speed perhaps
12:48:19  <supermop> i mean i am very far away from poland right now, but last night and today I had no reall connection issue
12:48:32  <V453000> get closer then :D
12:48:35  <V453000> like a sea closer
12:48:41  <V453000>  /ocean
12:48:54  <Eddi|zuHause> "distance" works differently on the internet
12:49:16  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes the shortest way from berlin to berlin goes through the USA
12:53:18  <tzaeru> this too can very simply be simulated by openttd..! just don't connect your roads in a city, instead have them loop around through a town on the other side of the whole map -.O
12:53:42  <tzaeru> that's worthy of a scenario..
12:54:56  <Eddi|zuHause> just you won't get any money from that
13:00:07  <supermop> bed time
13:00:54  <supermop> if any of you want to take over my company on the  PL server, password is mop
13:04:38  <supermop> it has some nicely timetabled trams!
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13:17:06  <George> Hi
13:17:15  <George> I've got a problem
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13:17:57  <George> When I check current speed to calculate running cost factor, I check for 0 value first.
13:18:35  <George> When a train sttands at red signal, the speed is periodically not 0, while vehicle window shows 0
13:18:43  <George> how can it happen?
13:19:26  <George> Vehicle details window shows running cost, there I can see jumps;
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13:20:49  <George> non zero value seems to be 1
13:21:11  <Eddi|zuHause> George: train waiting at block signal will constantly try to accelerate
13:21:23  <Eddi|zuHause> George: pikka had the same problem, not sure how he solved it
13:21:37  <George> andy why it gets non zero speed?
13:22:28  <Eddi|zuHause> George: because of the vehicle substeps. there are 256 substeps, and hitting a red signal will reset the progress to 10 (i believe), so it will accelerate these substeps again
13:22:47  <Eddi|zuHause> ... and again, and again, and again
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13:56:50  <George> Eddi|zuHause: And what's required to move the patch to trunck?
13:57:13  <Eddi|zuHause> George: someone who commits it
13:57:30  <George> Who should do it?
13:58:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know...
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14:11:26  <Samu> ((30*13)/25)*(177/88)=
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14:13:21  <andythenorth> what is infrastructure sharing all about?
14:13:24  <andythenorth> is it a thing?
14:13:51  <Samu> you play with a friend in the same company
14:14:03  <Alberth> it's a suggestion in the development section
14:14:30  <andythenorth> Samu: sounds like coop, why do we need a patch?
14:14:54  <Alberth> never happy with what we have?
14:15:06  <Samu> me? I didn't ask anything
14:15:21  <andythenorth> I don’t understand IS.
14:15:31  <andythenorth> why not just build new tracks?
14:15:39  <andythenorth> is it some realism thing?  For modelling trains?
14:16:02  <andythenorth> it’s probably because in the UK we have one company owns tracks, other companies run the trains
14:16:07  <andythenorth> the train nerds want it?
14:16:31  <Alberth> mostly, I think
14:16:47  <Alberth> we share tracks, but some tracks are still mine, and others are yours
14:16:59  <Alberth> no idea why that's useful
14:17:00  <andythenorth> why bother?
14:17:26  <andythenorth> just merge the companies
14:17:43  <andythenorth> Yet Another Complicated Thing
14:18:10  <Alberth> and miss out all the "fun" you can do when you're playing competitively?
14:18:35  <andythenorth> griefing and such?
14:18:42  <andythenorth> it’s kind of odd
14:19:04  <andythenorth> the only goal of infrastructure seems to be griefing, and yet all the concern seems to be about anti-griefing measures
14:19:18  <andythenorth> the gameplay benefit is I can steal your tracks and cargo, no?
14:19:31  <Samu> limit player #1 in company #1 of doing A and player #2 of company #1 of doing B?
14:19:49  <andythenorth> the point is to enable me to just be a parasite
14:20:14  <andythenorth> Samu: don’t take me too seriously
14:20:19  <Alberth> the point is that tracks may be expensive, so it's cheaper to use mine
14:20:32  <andythenorth> what’s actually happening here is nothing to do with ottd
14:20:46  <Alberth> opinions differ :p
14:20:47  * andythenorth is avoiding reading the Bootstrap docs to avoid having to work out how to refactor something
14:21:21  <Alberth> just overwrite the old with the new :)
14:21:25  <andythenorth> if I am exchanging Valued Opinions here, that’s a valid excuse for not reading the docs
14:21:31  <andythenorth> Alberth: I have to actually have a design :P
14:21:44  <andythenorth> contrary to the impression, I do actually think about code before ploughing in :P
14:22:25  <Alberth> yeah, annoying eh, that you cannot simply start coding, and think while doing :)
14:22:41  <andythenorth> I think it’s probably actually better than thinking first tbh
14:22:56  <andythenorth> at least with pure css stuff I can just start firebugging
14:23:40  <Alberth> it often is better, at least when you can see where you'll end up
14:30:31  <andythenorth> the refactoring I have to do is more like unifying common functions
14:30:38  <Eddi|zuHause> well at least _I_ want infrastructure sharing to keep local traffic and long-distance traffic in different companies, but still share one cargodist network
14:31:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it could be simulated with groups, but that's not implemented either
14:31:56  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: do you also use a parent company with shareholding? o_O
14:32:14  <Eddi|zuHause> probably not
14:32:48  <andythenorth> out of interest, why separate companies?
14:33:18  <Eddi|zuHause> because...
14:33:30  <Eddi|zuHause> one local transport company in each city
14:33:38  <Eddi|zuHause> different liveries, different accounting
14:34:24  <Eddi|zuHause> different infrastructure maintenance :)
14:37:01  <andythenorth> do you share tracks?
14:37:08  <andythenorth> or just co-joined stations?
14:37:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i could live with just stations
14:37:46  <andythenorth> joining stations across companies seems interesting with lower complexity
14:38:16  <andythenorth> basically allows cargo transfers, so possible for a company to just do one or two legs of a journey
14:38:19  <Eddi|zuHause> still have the main problem: cargo payment sharing
14:38:33  <andythenorth> yeah, I am not smart enough to discuss that :)
14:38:57  <andythenorth> if we could make it a stupider problem, I become capable of opinion
14:39:51  <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is simple: do we want to remember every hop the cargo has taken for the whole route?
14:40:38  <andythenorth> doesn’t that grow memory use horribly?
14:40:45  <Eddi|zuHause> it's potentially very memory heavy
14:40:46  <andythenorth> and worse on large maps?
14:41:00  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's the only solution
14:41:11  <andythenorth> unless...
14:41:14  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you do leg payment directly
14:41:19  <Eddi|zuHause> which allows cheating
14:41:24  <andythenorth> 
we completely change the cargo payment model
14:41:51  <andythenorth> the cheating is that you get paid as soon as leg is complete?
14:43:27  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, like transfer across the map
14:43:38  <Eddi|zuHause> or never actually reach destination
14:44:04  <andythenorth> put the money in escrow
14:44:05  <Eddi|zuHause> drop cargo in the middle of nowhere
14:44:18  <Eddi|zuHause> still get paid
14:44:23  <andythenorth> each company has an accounts receivable table: amount, cargo packet
14:44:29  <andythenorth> when packet arrives all amounts are paid out
14:44:47  <andythenorth> meanwhile we just track one amount per company per packet, instead of per leg
14:44:52  <andythenorth> or something
14:44:53  <Eddi|zuHause> that does not reduce the amount of memory consumed
14:44:56  <andythenorth> I dunno, I can’t program
14:45:34  <Eddi|zuHause> you can't store the money received because you don't know the money before it arrives
14:45:51  <Eddi|zuHause> you need to store distance travelled (in the correct direction) and time taken
14:46:02  <andythenorth> oh I had made an assumption, the shipper pays a fixed price for shipping, forget all this cargo rate nonsense
14:46:21  <andythenorth> it would also ‘fix’ this problem people have with what they see as perverse incentive with distance
14:46:44  <Eddi|zuHause> good luck convincing anybody of that :p
14:46:50  * andythenorth does some hand-waving
14:47:09  <andythenorth> hand-waving didn’t work
14:47:18  <andythenorth> trying to think of a way to divide fixed payment across legs
14:47:21  <andythenorth> not good
14:48:01  <Eddi|zuHause> see, it doesn't even solve your problem
14:48:01  <andythenorth> now I have to go back to IE 7 bugs
14:48:05  <andythenorth> :(
14:49:10  <Flygon> At least it's not IE 6
14:51:43  <Eddi|zuHause> nobody cares about ie6 anymore
14:51:55  <Eddi|zuHause> not if he intends to stay sane
14:52:02  <Rubidium> didn't MS release a IE 6 bugfix this week?
14:52:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i heard something about an XP bugfix
14:53:06  <Eddi|zuHause> a propos XP, anybody knows where i put the SP3 update pack the last time i used it?
14:53:41  <andythenorth> I was able to stop caring about IE 6 last year
14:54:37  <Flygon> Careful, the Chinese still love IE6 D;
15:04:35  <Samu> i can't turn around a road vehicle when it's on a bridge. Intended?
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15:06:25  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
15:06:34  <Eddi|zuHause> can't overtake on bridges either
15:06:36  <Samu> ok t.t
15:07:03  <Eddi|zuHause> basically the bridge does not exist, the vehicle is on the far end of the bridge head while on the bridge
15:07:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and it can only turn around at the end of the tile
15:07:37  <Eddi|zuHause> so it can only turn around when it reached the bridge head
15:08:36  <Samu> i see, thx for explaining
15:12:07  <Eddi|zuHause> is it bad when i outsmart the sudoku generator? it said i had to branch out 3 times to solve, but i only branched out once?
15:15:11  <Alberth> nah, it's software, and thus broken
15:16:10  <Samu> I forgot to apply share orders on a group of vehicles, is there a way to do it once they're bought?
15:16:31  <Flygon> No overtaking zone
15:20:39  <Samu> i wish i could drag a box to select multiple vehicles
15:20:47  <Samu> then give orders to all them at once
15:20:57  <Flygon> That
15:20:58  <Flygon> Would
15:21:01  <Flygon> Be really awesome
15:21:39  <Flygon> Also, is there a hotkey that clicks the "Go to" box in the vehicle's journey planner?
15:21:49  <Flygon> It'd make rolling out networks less painful
15:23:15  <Samu> i dont know much about hotkeys, but there's an option that presses go to when you open the window and it has no orders yet
15:23:22  <Samu> the orders window
15:24:35  <Samu> advanced settings > filter string, type go to
15:24:35  <Samu> should popup
15:36:46  * andythenorth thinks assigning vehicles to order groups (or vice versa) could use some love
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15:43:21  <Samu> if I stop a vehicle that has a timetable, what will happen? are the lost days while paused counted towards it?
15:43:43  <andythenorth> a lesson I wish I’d learned earlier in life
15:44:05  <andythenorth> what sounds like authoritative advice on a technical subject is usually just sophisticated confusion
15:46:31  <Samu> bah, didn't work
15:46:43  <andythenorth> another useful lesson would have been: html and css do *not* attract the best thinkers, typically
15:46:44  <Samu> the stopped vehicle is trying to catch up
15:46:48  <Eddi|zuHause> Flygon: tried "G"?
15:47:06  <andythenorth> but they do attract lots of verbose, pondering, second-rate thinkers with strong opinions, and their own blogs
15:47:32  * andythenorth goes back in shell
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15:47:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: need to adjust start date
15:47:39  <Flygon> G?
15:47:50  <Flygon> Lemme boot my desktop ad find out
15:49:29  <Flygon> Oh man
15:49:36  <Flygon> I forgot how crowded my London game is
15:49:39  <Flygon> Sooooo much red...
15:49:51  <Flygon> No wonder I gave up when I saw the 5,000 RV limit was reaching
15:50:11  <Flygon> Eddi
15:50:11  <Flygon> You
15:50:12  <Flygon> Are
15:50:12  <Flygon> A
15:50:14  <Flygon> Bloody
15:50:15  <Flygon> Livesaver
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15:51:29  <Samu> timetable idea is good, but it would need a revamp for accessibility
15:51:41  <Samu> it's not easy to understand what it does
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15:54:26  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but timetable "revamps" tend to make it more complex at the same time
15:54:46  <Eddi|zuHause> there are a few on the forum
15:55:36  <Samu> the speed limit buttons for example, still can't think of a way when I'd use that option
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16:03:19  <Samu> I would attempt to merge timetable and orders
16:03:51  <Samu> the stay for x days is really useful
16:04:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i had a network where i could have used it
16:04:10  <Eddi|zuHause> but it wasn't implemented back then
16:04:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i had a terminal station where trains arrived fast, but i needed a way to reliably ensure the train arrived after the previous one left
16:05:24  <Eddi|zuHause> so if i was able to slow down the incoming train a bit, it would have worked
16:05:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i couldn't let him start up earlier because it would interfere with other sections of the rail
16:05:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and i couldn't stop inbetween
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16:07:42  <Samu> I see
16:08:26  <Samu> that's a case of conditional orders
16:08:41  <Eddi|zuHause> no
16:08:54  <Samu> no? then im not seeing the whole picture
16:09:29  <Samu> it's a station that accepts something that produces goods?
16:10:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i have two passenger lines: A-X-B and A-X-C where X is a junction/waypoint
16:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> at X, trains from B and C must arrive in an interleaved fashion
16:10:41  <Eddi|zuHause> if one of them stops because the line is blocked, the entire timetable breaks down and doesn't recover
16:10:55  <Eddi|zuHause> now at B a train arrives, and another one leaves
16:11:10  <Samu> i see now
16:11:12  <Eddi|zuHause> if the leaving train is blocked by the incoming train, then it will block the next train coming from C
16:11:43  <Samu> you need all that very tightly timed to work
16:11:49  <Eddi|zuHause> exactly
16:15:48  <Samu> breakdowns will ruin it
16:15:54  <Samu> :o
16:15:56  <Eddi|zuHause>,%2029.%20Aug%202019.png <-- this was the timetable
16:16:01  <Eddi|zuHause> no breakdowns
16:18:41  <Samu> dat language... ugh
16:19:01  <Samu> zug? :o
16:19:39  <valhallasw> no, Zug.
16:19:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Zug is a town in switzerland
16:20:08  *** montalvo [] has quit [Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz
16:28:11  <Eddi|zuHause> "Strictly speaking, Zug means Pull, Tug, Draught, Procession, March, Progress, Flight, Direction, Expedition, Train, Caravan, Passage, Stroke, Touch, Line, Flourish, Trait of Character, Feature, Lineament, Chess-move, Organ-stop, Team, Whiff, Bias, Drawer, Propensity, Inhalation, Disposition: but that thing which it does not mean — when all its legitimate pennants have been hung on, has not been discovered yet." [Mark Twain]
16:34:03  <Eddi|zuHause> (full story here:
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16:45:55  <LordAro> oh my poor computer
16:46:00  <LordAro> 3GB of swap being used
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16:47:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't had swap being used for a long time now
16:47:29  <LordAro> try running a minecraft modpack
16:47:36  <LordAro> and chrome
16:47:40  <LordAro> with 8GB RAM
16:47:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i have 12GB
16:48:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i started with 4GB but that was not enough right from the start :/
16:49:34  <LordAro> :L
16:49:47  <LordAro> i have some money, so i think i'll buy another 8GB
16:52:43  <tzaeru> browsers of '14, now requiring a minimum of 8GB of RAM
16:52:46  <tzaeru> fuck yes.
16:53:05  <tzaeru> or well, I suppose that's mostly website's fault..
16:53:26  <Eddi|zuHause> firefox has some evil memory leaks
16:53:40  <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe one of the plugins like flash
16:53:43  <Eddi|zuHause> or probably both
16:54:03  <LordAro> chrome doesn't leak memory (i think) but it certainly isn't very memory efficient
16:54:10  <andythenorth> 16GB is a sensible amount
16:54:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i had 1GB a few years ago, and it was perfectly viable
16:54:45  <Eddi|zuHause> then i upgraded to 4GB and the same programs didn't run anymore
16:55:10  <andythenorth> most of mine disappears to virtualbox and photoshop
16:55:19  <andythenorth> running extra OSes eats it
16:55:22  <andythenorth> and Firefox
17:04:47  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:07:42  <tzaeru> firefox sure does eat it.
17:08:05  <tzaeru> also if you make the mistake of using such IDEs as Eclipse, you're bound to run out of memory even if you had a gazillion billion terabytes of it
17:08:55  <Eddi|zuHause> the only times i ran out of memory the past year were when i was recording and ran out of disk space
17:09:15  <Eddi|zuHause> for some reason that means the program is buffering up all the stuff somewhere
17:09:52  <Eddi|zuHause> the weird part of this is that even if i free up disk space during this phase, it won't write the buffered stuff to disk
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17:21:56  <Samu> can you make road/rail crossing a setting?
17:21:58  <Samu> on or off?
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17:23:21  <Alberth> how would that work?
17:23:37  <Rubidium> that's called "newgrf"
17:23:48  <Samu> permission to build road on competitors rail
17:23:48  <Alberth> in particular when you have crossings, and turn it "off"
17:23:59  <Samu> and permission to build rail on competitor's road
17:24:34  <Samu> i hate to see my trucks die to a troll train
17:24:41  <Samu> this should fix it
17:24:44  <Alberth> sounds dangerous
17:25:06  <George> planetmaker: are you here?
17:25:37  <George> I try to make a repositiory
17:25:43  <Samu> there are one-way roads and they can already block rails from crossing, but that would mean I'd have to double the road
17:25:50  <Samu> just because of a troll
17:25:53  <George> but my tortoisehg can't write there
17:26:08  <George> says "no suitable response from remote hg"
17:26:18  <George> What am I doing wrong?
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17:31:51  <Alberth> quite likely, devzone is not giving remote creation access
17:32:08  <Alberth> which is quite sane to do :)
17:32:42  <George> Can you make one for ECS?
17:32:58  <Alberth> don't think I can
17:33:06  <George> Who can?
17:34:34  <Alberth> mostly planetmaker. I'd say just make an issue at the devzone help center asking for an empty repository
17:35:12  <Alberth> work on a local one, and when devzone is ready, you can push your data into the devzone repository
17:38:02  <George> Done
17:40:18  <Eddi|zuHause> George: if you previously used https to push, that is not possible anymore, you need to use ssh
17:40:39  <George> I use SSH
17:40:49  <Eddi|zuHause> then i don't know
17:40:53  <George> It works fine for xUSSR set and WAS
17:41:47  <George> Eddi|zuHause: As Alberth wrote it may happen because it does not exsist yet
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17:42:58  <Alberth> the "repository" tab of the project also doesn't display a revision, so something is definitely wrong with it
17:45:31  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26564 /trunk/src/lang (finnish.txt hungarian.txt) (2014-05-05 17:45:23 UTC)
17:45:32  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:33  <DorpsGek> finnish - 5 changes by jpx_
17:45:34  <DorpsGek> hungarian - 22 changes by Brumi
17:48:53  <Samu> newgrf :(
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17:51:59  <Alberth> hi, hi,   you just missed your own language commit :)
17:57:04  <Samu> but why newgrf?
17:57:27  <Samu> can't it be based on one-way roads?
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18:05:39  <Alberth> quak
18:06:15  <frosch123> hai
18:12:36  <Brumi> 6 minutes late for my commit... :P
18:12:42  <Brumi> and even joining afk
18:16:11  <Supercheese> This is IRC, the vast majority are afk
18:16:44  <Rubidium> because at least here you can easily get afk ;)
18:16:53  <frosch123> some are bots, with the only purpose to wish a new year
18:17:17  <Rubidium> all those fancy phone chat applications make it really hard to be afk
18:17:28  <Rubidium> although... more like aft
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18:25:13  <Wolf01> hello o/
18:28:58  <Alberth> o/
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18:54:48  <Phreeze> Samu server running ?
18:56:03  <planetmaker> hi hi
18:57:17  <Samu> hey
18:57:18  <Samu> yes
18:57:26  <Phreeze> name ?
18:57:40  <Phreeze> anything running thats more than just a test ? :D
18:57:59  <Samu> there's an AI on it with 1700 buses
18:58:07  <Samu> sec
18:58:12  <Phreeze> ...
18:58:22  <Phreeze> k..leave it .. :D
19:00:09  <Samu> 2019 buses now
19:00:30  <Phreeze> that's why i dont like ai
19:00:33  <Phreeze> it's just mass producing shit
19:01:02  <Samu> he doesn't do industries at all
19:01:36  <Phreeze> why do you use AIs anyway ?
19:01:59  <Samu> for testing, and see how ppl deal with them
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19:32:18  <Phreeze> to the german here, watch RTL
19:32:24  <Phreeze> i'm so shocked
19:32:32  <Phreeze> i want to kill some people...
19:32:56  <Phreeze> undercover in an old people's home
19:33:22  <Phreeze> one has fallen from bed, and is lying head down, the women working there leave here and first take pictures and laugh
19:34:58  <__ln___> it's good people enjoy their work
19:35:10  <Phreeze> ?
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19:35:30  <Phreeze> i dont know if this is irony a joke or whatever
19:35:41  <Phreeze> but it was not the moment to joke
19:36:30  <__ln___> not the best moment, no
19:42:07  <Samu> woah, the AI just bloomed
19:42:15  <Samu> it's on 4000+ road vehicles
19:42:20  <Samu> limit is 5k
19:42:32  <Phreeze> what server are you using ? is it crashing ? :D
19:42:40  <Samu> no
19:42:55  <Samu> it's running fine
19:43:19  <Phreeze> local ?
19:43:26  <Samu>
19:43:51  <Phreeze> ...local pc or dedicated server
19:43:54  <Phreeze> or virtual host
19:44:05  <Samu> local pc
19:44:30  <Phreeze> ah k. bom.
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19:57:08  * tommylommykins waves
19:57:56  <tommylommykins> does anyone mind helping with a little problem? I'm trying to install openttd over the commandline in linux. Executing openttd dies with an error saying that it doesn't know where opengfx is
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19:58:11  <tommylommykins> I have downloaded and extracted opengfx, but I have no idea how to tell openttd where it is
19:58:22  *** luaduck_zzz is now known as luaduck
19:58:29  <planetmaker> section 4 of the readme tells you where openttd expects to find it
19:58:33  <planetmaker> ~/.openttd/baseset
19:58:58  <planetmaker> yet it should also ask you whether you want to download it
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20:00:03  <tommylommykins> oh, serves me right for not reading second half of the error message
20:00:17  <tommylommykins> it does point me at the readme
20:00:29  <tommylommykins> It doesn't prompt me to install it though
20:00:41  <tommylommykins> oh well, that's my fault for not reading the whole error
20:07:30  <tommylommykins> thanks for the help, by the way <3
20:08:43  <planetmaker> welcome
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21:38:17  <tommylommykins> hmm, another annoying question... I'm trying to enable some newgrfs on this server
21:39:26  <tommylommykins> I've copy/pasted them into .openttd/content_download/newgrf, and the debug output given with debulevel "grf=9" says that openttd has found them
21:39:39  <tommylommykins> but when I put them in the [newgrf] section of the openttd config file
21:39:44  <frosch123> easiest method is to prepare a savegame with a gui client and upload that savegame
21:39:57  <tommylommykins> and then start openttd, openttd deletes them from the config file
21:40:04  <frosch123> common mistake in openttd.cfg is mixup of / and \
21:40:04  <tommylommykins> oh
21:42:38  <Wolf01> 'night all
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21:45:06  <tommylommykins> aha!
21:45:12  <tommylommykins> that worked quite nicely :D
21:45:14  <tommylommykins> thanks
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21:53:15  <frosch123> night
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