Log for #openttd on 6th May 2014:
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02:11:59  <kiz> Is cargo price a function of distance as the crow flies? Seems like it should be, but figured I would check.
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02:49:00  <Supercheese> Yes
02:49:13  <Supercheese> the graph "Cargo payment rates" will confirm that for you
03:06:14  <kiz> got it, roger.
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04:52:39  <supermop> hows it going?
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05:16:30  <LSky_net> morning
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05:54:01  <kiz> Does anyone know what the conditions are that cause town populations to shrink?
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06:23:20  <dihedral> good morning
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06:30:26  <DJTch7> hi everyone
06:30:40  <DJTch7> question regarding 1.4.0
06:30:42  <__ln___> everyone including yourself or not?
06:31:26  <DJTch7> for some reason, there are no forests on the map. Paper mills, but no forests.
06:31:33  <DJTch7> how do i fix this?
06:31:52  <V453000> have snow liner lower / mapr more hilly
06:32:01  <V453000> forests only grow above snow line in arctic landscape
06:32:04  <DJTch7> ok thanks!
06:32:11  <V453000> yw
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06:33:11  <Flygon> It does annoy me that it Arctic by default works like that...
06:33:16  <Flygon> Makes irl scenarios a pita @_@
06:35:00  <V453000> irl scenarios are also retarded for reasons
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06:50:40  <dihedral> <DJTch7> how do i fix this? <- plant seeds
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07:33:23  <planetmaker> moin
07:56:42  <V453000> moooo
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09:43:12  <peter1139>
09:43:45  <peter1139> Except I don't actually know the original theme...
09:47:05  <Eddi|zuHause> you should probably catch up on that :p
09:51:45  <Samu> i like this, for some reason
09:51:48  <Samu>
09:52:07  <peter1139> Yeah, they're good too.
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10:08:25  <Eddi|zuHause>
10:11:56  <Samu> can we discuss about the road/rail crossings again? Why's it such a bad idea to implement?
10:12:22  <Samu> even as an option
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10:13:37  <V453000> karma
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10:14:42  <Samu> sorry, my connection dropped
10:15:05  <Samu> did I miss anything
10:18:35  <peter1139> road/rail crossings what?
10:19:33  <Samu> permission for a road being built on competitor's rail and vice versa as an advanced game settings
10:19:35  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: why would we discuss something that is already implemented?
10:19:59  <Eddi|zuHause> make a newgrf that disallows crossing, boom!
10:20:02  <Samu> i wanted an option to turn it off
10:20:17  <Samu> yes, but that's the issue with creating newgrfs
10:20:20  <Samu> no one joins
10:21:51  <Samu> there are too many NewGRFs that change minor things, but just the mere presence of newgrf detracts players from even joining a server
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10:22:38  <Samu> a toggle on/off switch was in my opinion a more feasible request
10:22:50  <Eddi|zuHause> then work on more seamless newgrf integration instead
10:23:39  <V453000> you even care about running a no-newGRF server? :D
10:23:40  <V453000> :D
10:24:27  <Samu> there's one-way roads that can block a rail from crossing, how did that go without requiring a NewGRF
10:24:59  <Eddi|zuHause> read the logs from 5 years ago?
10:25:25  <V453000> why do you even remotely care about the road crossings?
10:25:35  <V453000> towns build over them? retards sabotage each other?
10:25:47  <Samu> because it would help moderate servers
10:25:49  <Samu> yes
10:25:54  <Samu> not about towns much
10:26:01  <Samu> but more about trolls
10:26:09  <V453000> which is why servers with newGRFs are good
10:26:17  <V453000> 90%+ of the retards get filtered out
10:26:22  <Samu> im sorry, I have a different oppinion
10:26:30  <Samu> servers with newGRFs are bad
10:26:37  <V453000> ok :D
10:26:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: so the trolls now build rails around places so people can't connect there anymore with roads?
10:27:21  <V453000> servers with newGRFs are bad because?
10:28:05  <Samu> because no one joins, no one nearly knows what's in it for them
10:28:16  <V453000> idk we have 15 companies every single game with newGRFs
10:28:37  <V453000> and many not-noob people actually do know newGRFs
10:28:46  <V453000> the vanilla game gets boring after a while
10:28:58  <Eddi|zuHause> Samu: maybe noone joins because your server is badly moderated?
10:29:23  <Samu> it's being moderated fine
10:29:35  <Samu> i just sometimes wish i could force the trolls not to kill trucks
10:29:35  <V453000> then you have bad settings/map/server name
10:29:36  <Eddi|zuHause> no amount of technical nuisances will ever replace good moderation
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10:30:17  <Samu> but i can build road bridges
10:30:30  <Samu> it's the rail/road combo segment I am against
10:30:49  <V453000> make a newgrf which disallows it :) if you want other solution, enjoy implementing it
10:31:26  <V453000> but yeah newgrf is horrible
10:31:34  <V453000> how could anyone develop newgrfs
10:31:35  <V453000> such evil
10:32:20  <Samu> for new players or old school like me, the expectation is a TTD-like experience
10:32:36  <Samu> I think you understand what I mean
10:32:50  <Samu> those who are already into modding the game are way ahead
10:32:54  <V453000> well then add newgrfs which do not remove that experience
10:32:57  <Samu> they're experienced players
10:33:18  <V453000> like adding a newgrf which disallows rail crossings doesnt quite change the TTD-like experience
10:33:31  <V453000> well having experienced players on the server is good?
10:35:06  <V453000> experienced players usually dont require you to moderate them and eventually help you with it, or can even become admins
10:37:22  <Samu> with modding I mean, playing newGRFs
10:37:25  <Samu> not moderating
10:48:13  <Samu> it's a combination of accessibility + enjoying experience + expectation Im thriving to get
10:49:06  <Samu> newgrfs impact accessibility / expectations too much in my opinion
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10:55:23  <Samu> not to mention it would greatly ease moderation, pull a few trolls away
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11:33:58  <Samu> "towns are allowed to build level crossings" - is this what I think it is?
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11:34:33  <planetmaker> hard to tell. But it is what it says it is
11:35:25  <Samu> what's a level crossing?
11:36:13  <planetmaker> something you should consult a dictionary for
11:36:46  <Samu> gee
11:36:59  <Samu> why not have that option for companies too
11:37:11  <Samu> it's exactly what I was asking
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11:38:44  <planetmaker> the next person comes "gee, that's bad! I can have level crossings for rail, but I don#t want them for maglev and monorail"
11:38:59  <planetmaker> The 3rd comes and goes like "yes, but for my new railtype I want to allow level crossings again!"
11:39:01  <planetmaker> and now?
11:39:50  <Samu> implement for the 3 rail types
11:39:53  <Samu> or 4
11:39:59  <Taede> why not disable roads in general, i never use them
11:39:59  <planetmaker> thus we now have the most flexible solution possible: allow that per railtype which can be easily defined by newgrfs. And the NewGRF could even have a parameter which allows you to configure that per railtype
11:40:03  <Taede> ;)
11:40:23  <planetmaker> Samu, but there are 256^4 different railtypes
11:40:47  <Eddi|zuHause> 4 billion
11:40:55  <Eddi|zuHause> or milliards
11:41:00  <Xaroth|Work> @calc 256 ** 4
11:41:00  <DorpsGek> Xaroth|Work: 4294967296
11:41:15  <Samu> ah, the technical side of things
11:41:58  <Samu> just a do for all, do for none
11:42:40  <Samu> have newgrfs bypass that setting
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11:43:12  <Eddi|zuHause> and then people will say "what? this setting doesn't do anything"
11:44:12  <Samu> i dont know how newgrfs work, but could they adjust for individual types?
11:45:37  <Samu> i believe this would be possible to do, but it would force newgrfs a bit of work
11:45:41  <Samu> those already existant
11:45:46  <planetmaker> they can give you that setting. So the discussion is settled?
11:46:45  <Samu> no, the setting is only available for newgrfs, a new kind of setting, dunno what to call it, a bypass main setting
11:47:31  <planetmaker> you don't understand. You can make a newgrf which introduces that setting for the existing railtypes.
11:47:36  <planetmaker> Problem solved
11:48:13  <Samu> yes, but i was imagining if my suggestion was actually implemented in the advanced game settings
11:48:52  <planetmaker> If you want to make it easier to use, provide a patch with a setting in the UI or so which could read "allow automatic download of missing newgrfs when loading savegames or when joining multiplayer servers"
11:49:41  <Samu> or maybe a different way to handle it
11:49:49  <Samu> let me think
11:51:34  <Samu> provide that advanced setting in the advanced settings, then the choices would be yes, no (except newgrfs) and a second no
11:51:53  <Samu> the 2nd no would affect newgrfs
11:52:20  <planetmaker> err-too-many-settings
11:52:28  <Samu> :/
11:52:30  <Samu> okay
11:53:03  <peter1139> Owwwww
11:53:12  <peter1139> I stubbed my toe... on the wheelie bin.
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12:03:56  <V453000> !dl win64
12:03:59  <V453000> asdf
12:04:15  <V453000> also, the time when many faggots keep using "stable" and not "testing stable" is here again :D
12:08:22  <planetmaker> you should call it only "testing"
12:08:37  <planetmaker> as that's the download link, too :)
12:09:48  <V453000> it should be called stable :D
12:10:01  <planetmaker> only those without -beta or -RC
12:10:23  <peter1139> "many faggots" what?
12:10:25  <planetmaker> it's the purpose of the testing builds to test whether they're stable. But they might not
12:11:02  <V453000> sure but many people boycott that purpose :D
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12:14:50  <planetmaker> hehe, yeah
12:21:52  <peter1139> Well, the good news is I had bacon sandwiches.
12:21:57  <peter1139> The bad news is, I'm out of bacon :(
12:22:00  <V453000> that changes everything
12:22:34  <Eddi|zuHause> good thing bacon grows in supermarkets
12:24:42  <V453000> : D
12:25:56  <V453000> that is about as logical as giant rocks falling from the sky to stone mines
12:25:58  <V453000> (y)
12:26:29  <planetmaker> power comes out of the wall plug
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12:29:52  <V453000> wall slug
12:31:23  <Samu> how do newgrfs handle the 4 existant rail types?
12:31:39  <Samu> ignores them? accepts them? is based on them?
12:31:50  <Eddi|zuHause> they can replace/change them but not remove them
12:33:05  <Samu> i see where the "too many settings" is coming from now
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12:38:13  <Samu> towns don't build roads on monorails?
12:38:57  <Samu> i still think the best approach would be much like how towns do it
12:39:14  <Samu> if it were to be implemented, of course
12:39:58  <Samu> the 50 yearly game years would have road crossings, the later 50 years would haven't
12:40:50  <V453000> ._.
12:41:05  <Samu> then i could start up a game in 2000 or so
12:41:32  <Samu> but i dont know exactly how towns do it for monoral/maglev
12:43:03  <Samu> brb gonna check
12:43:48  <V453000> same way as for rail
12:43:50  <Eddi|zuHause> wtf?!?
12:44:13  <V453000> towns build roads on any rail if the setting is on, or on no rail if the setting is off
12:44:20  <V453000> you see, modification of specific railtypes is done by newgrfs
12:44:29  <V453000> but you hate all newgrfs, too bad
12:45:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it's like hating all realism :p
12:45:28  <V453000> not really
12:45:35  <V453000> newgrfs are functional, realism isnt
12:45:40  <Samu> realism, who would want to die in a level crossing :(
12:45:54  <Taede> plenty ppl, if you look at youtube
12:46:01  <V453000> :D
12:46:05  <V453000> point proven
12:46:08  <V453000> thanks Taede
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12:47:50  <Samu> ah it's all or none for towns, thx
12:47:57  <Samu> even better
12:49:18  <Samu> the too many settings approach would be something like: give the same crossing rules to companies and towns, then each of the 4 rail types could be customizable to allow/disallow
12:49:40  <Samu> but i know there's more than 4
12:49:44  <Samu> the others would be set up by newgrfs
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12:50:23  <planetmaker> sure. Thus adding two places where you change that particular setting. Sounds useful, Samu
12:50:53  <planetmaker> but each place only allows to change the setting for half of your railtypes. Great. Really.
12:51:03  <Samu> you mean, how to present the setting in the advanced menu?
12:51:41  <Samu> i dont understand what you mean now
12:51:46  <Taede> wouldn't creating a rules webpage and referring  to that using an ingame sign be easier?
12:52:10  <Taede> "Thou shalt not build level crossings over other ppl's infra"
12:54:46  <Samu> yes I can, it's more like a bait to trolling but... i can try that
12:55:02  <V453000> no Taede that is not an option because he want server without newGRFs, hence Players and similar people who in many cases cant even read
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12:57:52  <Samu> has it been tried?
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12:58:07  <V453000> what
12:58:11  <Samu> or is there a newgrf that do this? i could try, but I place my bets no one will join
12:58:56  <V453000> yes some newgrfs do that for high speed tracks
12:59:18  <Samu> i mean, for the original openttd
12:59:23  <Samu> the base set
12:59:24  <V453000> if nobody joins your server just because you have newgrfs there, then you either 1. have them from elsewhere than download content, or 2. your server is shit (settings/something)
12:59:47  <V453000> original openttd with newgrfs isnt original openttd anymore?
13:00:10  <Samu> it certainly does not help it
13:00:29  <Samu> but i want to try
13:03:15  <Samu> why do you think newgrfs are good? you keep defending them like they're the best thing ever. They are from a technical perspective, yes I agree
13:03:37  <V453000> did you just counteranswer yourself or
13:03:38  <Samu> but it sure complicates even searching for a game
13:03:53  <V453000> how does it complicate searching for a game?
13:03:53  <Samu> with a specific newgrf
13:04:07  <V453000> well, a bit
13:04:08  <planetmaker> what's complicated there? "Get needed newgrfs". "join"
13:04:27  <planetmaker> and each is one button click. That's it
13:04:31  <Samu> not that, but picking from a big list a game with a determined newgrf
13:04:37  <Samu> mixed up with all others
13:04:37  <planetmaker> unless you use newgrfs from murky sources
13:04:43  <V453000> many servers often use the same newgrfs all over again so it isnt that terrible
13:05:00  <Samu> it's the whole mix that confuses me
13:05:53  <Samu> i can install different newgrfs, but only wish to play in one
13:06:11  <Samu> there's not an easy way to differentiate them
13:06:17  <Samu> when they're being listed
13:06:32  <V453000> just wtf.
13:07:09  <Samu> omg what's so hard to understand? put yourself in place of a beginner
13:07:30  <V453000> beginner has hard time pressing download content button?
13:07:43  <Samu> clearly you don't get it
13:07:51  <V453000> beginners on our server clearly dont have such problems
13:07:59  <V453000> and those are often people who play the game for 1st time
13:08:51  <Samu> if I have different newgrfs installed, i dont need to re-download them
13:09:11  <V453000> so which problem remains?
13:09:35  <Taede> filter server list based on wether is uses certain newgrfs?
13:09:37  <Samu> when i want to join a server, when i already have several newgrfs installed, i need to click on each server to get to know which newgrfs they're using
13:09:44  <Samu> yes
13:09:44  <Taede> eg only play on servers which use first or nuts
13:10:44  <Samu> that is the mixed up part that makes newgrfs complicated for me
13:11:22  <V453000> I think your brain is complicating a lot of things for you
13:11:54  <Samu> i think you're too bias
13:17:02  <V453000> no I just think people who have no idea about playing the game are not very suitable for running servers
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13:19:22  <Samu> that's bias
13:20:09  <V453000> it proves true every single time
13:22:02  <planetmaker> Samu, if you don't know the game, you don't care which settings or newgrfs a server has - you can't judge it anyway
13:22:15  <planetmaker> so for a beginner the different settings don't matter
13:22:22  <planetmaker> he picks randomly any
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13:22:54  <planetmaker> and he won't despair by the need to click once additionally 'download newgrfs'
13:23:36  <Samu> when i was a beginner, i was coming from TTD
13:23:54  <planetmaker> as *player* on MP servers I never have to care about NewGRF config anyway. Unless I really have some NewGRFs which are in your personal must-have or cannot-play-with category
13:23:54  <Samu> that's my point of view, maybe my bias is that
13:24:07  <Eddi|zuHause> did i not say "help make newgrf usage more seamless" already?
13:24:43  <planetmaker> you did. And I did, too, pointing out what can be done
13:24:53  <planetmaker> but no... that doesn't matter
13:25:14  <planetmaker> the real problem seems to be "I don't want the need to configure newgrfs when I want to start a server"
13:25:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i think Samu has a hard time recognizing when a discussion is over.
13:25:39  <planetmaker> "while I also want features X, Y and Z which are implemented via NewGRFs"
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13:27:33  <Samu> which newgrf have that setting? there's 300+ newgrfs to pick from :(
13:27:49  <Eddi|zuHause> the one you write
13:28:20  <Eddi|zuHause> call it "disable level crossings" and everybody knows what it does
13:28:26  <Samu> ok, ok
13:28:57  <planetmaker> swedishrails has it for rail and erail
13:30:18  <Samu> any server running that?
13:30:54  <planetmaker> metrotracks has that setting, too
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13:32:03  <Samu> just had an idea, when searching for a server, the string could also search from the list of newgrfs a server is using
13:32:24  <Eddi|zuHause> great idea. now implement that
13:34:07  <planetmaker> transrapid tracks, too
13:34:20  <planetmaker> smts seems to lack the parameter
13:35:28  <V453000> PURR dares to lack that parameter too.
13:35:28  <V453000> (:
13:36:52  <Flygon> I need to stop reading smts as smuts
13:38:07  <planetmaker> I always wanted to make ce-tracks...
13:38:46  <V453000> watiz ce-tracks :D
13:39:09  <Eddi|zuHause> curvy rails
13:39:47  <V453000> dont want to know how would that look :)
13:40:07  <Eddi|zuHause> somewhat like gold rush rails
13:40:12  <Eddi|zuHause> just less elaborate
13:40:24  <V453000> havent seen those, is it on bananas?
13:40:32  <Eddi|zuHause> no
13:40:45  <Eddi|zuHause> but there are concept screen shots on the forum somewhere
13:41:46  <V453000> I know dont worry, 150 years old and without release
13:41:47  <V453000> hopeless :)
13:42:00  <V453000> still, that concept isnt really doable, is it?
13:42:21  <Eddi|zuHause> it'd be a simple railtype property
13:42:31  <Eddi|zuHause> or rather variable
13:42:47  <planetmaker> yeah... ce-tracks as yet-another-trackset won't happen. Needs to support at least 4x. And maybe something fancy as curvy tracks :D
13:42:56  <planetmaker> like dike map for canals?
13:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. a varaction2-variable that gives you the trackbits of the 4 adjacent tiles
13:43:48  <Eddi|zuHause> and there was talk about some flag of returning the full tile graphics instead of individual trackbits
13:44:08  <planetmaker> was that discussion summarized somewhere?
13:44:26  <Eddi|zuHause> there was a forum topic
13:45:41  <Eddi|zuHause> # sometimes i get to launch timmy. (what?)
13:45:51  <Eddi|zuHause> # for tim's perspective just press 'C'
13:46:20  <Samu> transrapid looks good
13:46:25  <Samu> for my purposes
13:46:47  <Eddi|zuHause>
13:47:43  <Samu> oops, im still allowed to build road on rail with transrapid
13:48:24  <peter1139> HI WHAT
13:49:41  <Samu> nevermind, only for maglev and monorail :(
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13:57:57  <Samu> metro tracks doesn't work like i want
13:58:28  <Samu> screw this... I give up
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15:02:32  * V453000 has the first of my more-complicated animations done =D
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15:47:50  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think he’s probably drunk
15:47:56  <andythenorth> that’s my assumption anyway
15:50:15  <andythenorth> hmm
15:50:28  <andythenorth> I once proposed a rule that offensive whining causes a feature to be delted
15:50:33  <andythenorth> deleted *
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15:55:50  <Alberth> evenink
15:55:57  <andythenorth> lo
15:57:08  <planetmaker> oddink
15:57:30  <planetmaker> @logs
15:57:30  <DorpsGek> planetmaker:
15:58:07  <Alberth> that's a standard entry in my collection of bookmarks :)
15:59:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i always type that from memory
16:01:45  <planetmaker> actually... it's in my bookmarks, too. As it seems
16:02:45  <planetmaker> <-- any thought on this. Sounds like a go to me. With a clearer wording of the actual warning message
16:10:09  <Alberth> a bit of shuffle of the simpler conditions to the front may be useful, as a ( ... & ... ) != 0   test
16:10:22  <Alberth> s/as/and/
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16:15:41  <LordAro> quak
16:15:53  <frosch123> hai
16:15:59  <Alberth> hai too
16:16:56  <planetmaker> Alberth, well, yes, maybe. It somewhat defines the importance of the warnings
16:17:15  <planetmaker> the current one can be argued for as optimal - though there's a lot of personal preference in it
16:17:25  <planetmaker> quark :)
16:18:00  <Eddi|zuHause> jo-kurt
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16:39:26  <planetmaker> the commuter airport is also a small one with short runway, yes? And Darwn 600 or airtaxi -1000 should be large planes...
16:39:31  <planetmaker> ah... there it comes, the message
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16:56:07  <planetmaker> hm, we have a commted-out debug message in orders_cmd.cpp
16:56:12  <planetmaker> 		//DEBUG(misc, 3, "Triggered News Item for vehicle %d", v->index);
16:58:22  <Alberth> lol
17:01:38  <frosch123> delete it?
17:02:01  <Xaroth|Work> maybe peter1139 has a patch for it to fix it?
17:02:27  <frosch123> i remember tb removing a single empty line in one commit :)
17:04:17  <planetmaker> yeah... delete or re-instate it. That's the question
17:04:33  <frosch123> delete, noone missed it
17:04:53  <planetmaker> yeah... hg rev 5380. That's ages ago
17:04:59  <peter1139> Hmm?
17:05:18  <planetmaker> public   [5380:8ea58542b6e0 default] 2006-12-26 17:36 +0000 Darkvater
17:05:18  <planetmaker> 	(svn r7565) -Codechange: Rework DEBUG functionality. Look for appropiate debugging levels to
17:05:18  <planetmaker> 	 use in debug.h. grfmsg() is now used as a specific debug-function for grf.
17:05:37  <Xaroth|Work> now that's a name I haven't seen in a while
17:06:02  <frosch123> it's some alpha release of rb or something
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17:06:19  <frosch123> but we got the real release
17:06:30  <planetmaker> :D
17:07:32  <planetmaker> I want to rework CheckOrders so that it uses the stringIDs directly. There's no point in counting problem numbers and adding to the first problem string
17:08:24  <frosch123> is the index used somewhere else?
17:08:32  <planetmaker> no
17:08:35  <frosch123> for priority or setting or surpression?
17:08:41  <planetmaker> and it's not even incremented anywhere or so
17:08:48  <frosch123> ok :p
17:09:39  <planetmaker> there's DeleteOrderWarnings - but that handles each explicitly
17:09:45  <planetmaker> without any index
17:10:17  <planetmaker> ok, I'll tidy this up. But first some sports
17:10:21  <planetmaker> see you later
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17:12:25  <Eddi|zuHause> there was something about order checking that i wanted, but i forgot
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17:34:00  <Wolf01> hi hi
17:35:00  <Wolf01> warning: wonderful art
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17:45:37  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26565 /trunk/src/lang (4 files) (2014-05-06 17:45:27 UTC)
17:45:38  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:39  <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 4 changes by xiangyigao
17:45:40  <DorpsGek> english_AU - 56 changes by mrtux
17:45:41  <DorpsGek> korean - 12 changes by telk5093
17:45:42  <DorpsGek> lithuanian - 57 changes by Stabilitronas
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17:48:45  <andythenorth> lolwut?
17:48:59  <Wolf01> hi andy
17:49:11  <andythenorth> fonsinchen: so how does cdist work out routes when the routes are based on conditional orders? :P
17:49:24  * andythenorth has seen an odd-looking patch
17:50:09  <andythenorth> ‘where are you going’
17:50:22  <andythenorth> ‘wherever the cargo you load wants to go'
17:50:49  <andythenorth> ‘what cargo will you load?’
17:50:58  <andythenorth> ‘the cargo that goes where your’re going'
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17:58:11  <Alberth> cdist does heuristic gambling on what conditional orders mean, afaik
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17:59:44  <Alberth> Wolf01: nice art indeed
17:59:57  <tommylommykins> ooh, does time spent loading cargo count as time for the purposes of calculating cargo income?
18:02:34  <Alberth> iirc it does, but I never studied the GameMechanics page closely
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18:22:07  <andythenorth> heuristic gambling is basically a dice roll?
18:28:39  <Eddi|zuHause> heuristic is "this is probably a good idea but i'm not sure", gambling is "i have no idea, let's try"
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18:29:52  <Eddi|zuHause> they are two entirely different things
18:31:15  <frosch123> so a heuristic involves loaded dice?
18:31:30  <Eddi|zuHause> somewhat
18:32:31  <Eddi|zuHause> although, most applicable heuristics i know are actually deterministic
18:37:33  <Alberth> afaik cdist tries to understand what you mean, which of course fails at some point
18:39:16  <Eddi|zuHause> but i wonder now, why would cargodist care? it's a graph, so it may as well just add edges for both branches of conditional orders
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18:45:17  <Alberth> you'd get loads of bug reports :)
18:46:03  <Alberth> I have seen people  complain that an order "stop at depot" means that you don't get any cargo load at the station before :p
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19:03:47  <andythenorth> struck me as it might produce very odd results with waybill, where capacity is measured
19:03:51  <andythenorth> maybe not
19:04:26  <andythenorth> positive feedback loop
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19:10:26  <Eddi|zuHause> it totally screams of feedback loops
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19:10:56  <andythenorth> it also seems to slightly miss the point
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19:11:18  <andythenorth> the premise (AIUI) of cdist is that it routes where the player provides transport
19:11:23  <andythenorth> even more so in the waybill mode
19:11:58  <andythenorth> delegating the vehicle routing conditionally back to the cargo when the cargo is trying to follow the vehicle seems
at least not optimum
19:12:17  <andythenorth> but anyway, andythenorth is just thinking aloud
19:12:20  <andythenorth> ignore andythenorth
19:12:56  <peter1139> i do
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19:27:17  * andythenorth feels ignored :(
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19:30:04  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: i notice everything!
19:30:43  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: if you feel like it, we can talk via pm
19:32:15  <andythenorth> DorpsGek: thanks, let’s do that
19:32:17  <andythenorth> how do I pm?
19:33:08  <Alberth>   /mesg DorpsGek ?
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20:05:52  <andythenorth> so is Squirrel an appropriate level of dififculty for me?
20:05:59  <andythenorth> bearing in mind I can’t program
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20:06:16  * andythenorth is bored of waiting for new GS
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20:06:53  <Rubidium> it's a fairly simple scripting language with some OO-ish structs
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20:10:50  <andythenorth> can I do more damage with it than I do with python?
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20:12:26  <Rubidium> you can OOM OpenTTD
20:12:52  <Rubidium> you can't open/remove files with it, open network sockets
20:13:31  <glx> you can't access anything outside stuff allowed in API
20:14:17  <frosch123> maybe you can code a admin port <-> lego bridge
20:14:22  <frosch123> and then control lego vehicles
20:14:31  <glx> IIRC you can't freeze openttd (even with an infinite loop)
20:14:40  <Taede> well, is there something that connects lego <-> irc?
20:14:52  <glx> probably Taede
20:15:06  <frosch123> glx: oh, it has been possible multiple times
20:15:37  <glx> still possible frosch123 ?
20:15:46  <frosch123> not known :)
20:16:24  <frosch123> but stuff like built-in sort methods looping when the script provided comparator did <= instead of <
20:16:26  <frosch123> and such
20:16:46  <frosch123> ottd only suspends the scripts, not the interpreter :)
20:17:12  <glx> yeah built-in is ugly ;)
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20:19:04  <andythenorth> the GS I have looked at look like real programming :o
20:19:13  <andythenorth> is that just style, or is that the only way?
20:19:54  <frosch123> you just take zuu's minimal script, and keep on adding stuff
20:20:36  <andythenorth> seems like there are proper loops and data structures and stuff
20:20:51  <andythenorth> syntax looks easy
20:21:26  <andythenorth> we didn’t consider doing this in bytecode? o_O
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20:23:33  <frosch123> nah, the printable chars are only comments
20:23:38  <frosch123> the actual code is in the whitespace
20:24:40  <andythenorth> awesome
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20:36:38  <planetmaker> re hi :)
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20:51:01  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26566 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt order_cmd.cpp) (2014-05-06 20:50:58 UTC)
20:51:02  <DorpsGek> -Add [FS#6009]: Give a warning when a plane's orders tell it to use a runway which is too short for it (3298)
20:53:14  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26567 /trunk/src (lang/english.txt order_cmd.cpp) (2014-05-06 20:53:08 UTC)
20:53:15  <DorpsGek> -Cleanup: Remove unused StringID offset in orders check
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21:01:03  <fonsinchen> andythenorth: Cargodist simulates all possible branches of the conditional orders and acts like the vehicle will go everywhere at once.
21:02:01  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26568 trunk/src/lang/english.txt (2014-05-06 21:01:55 UTC)
21:02:02  <DorpsGek> -Change (r26566): Better wording of the new warning (Supercheese)
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21:02:42  <fonsinchen> The problem with autorefit to waiting cargo is more that cargodist does not know which cargoes can possibly use a certain link
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21:03:15  <fonsinchen> Thus it always sticks with the (then) current cargo when encountering such a link during simulation.
21:03:35  <andythenorth> fonsinchen: you saw the request for conditional orders based on current cargo destination?
21:03:40  <andythenorth> not from me I add :P
21:04:48  <frosch123> does already loaded cargo even have a destination?
21:05:20  <fonsinchen> No. Also, waiting cargo doesn't have a destination either, only a next hop
21:05:30  <fonsinchen> But what request are you talking about?
21:06:07  <frosch123> when andy is in good mood he goes to the suggestion forum
21:06:17  <frosch123> maybe he does not stand having a good mood
21:06:35  <andythenorth> what is ‘good mood’ ?
21:06:37  <frosch123>
21:07:22  <andythenorth> hmm
21:07:29  <andythenorth> I think I remember a good mood last year sometime
21:07:34  <fonsinchen> That already works
21:07:37  <andythenorth> there was probably a new feature in newgrf spec or something
21:07:47  <fonsinchen> The documentation in the wiki was wrong until a few days ago
21:08:59  <fonsinchen> Ah, no, only the "if empty return" thing works
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21:30:13  <planetmaker> german translators are also slackers
21:30:40  <frosch123> :p
21:31:14  <planetmaker> Terkhen, glx: new strings ;)
21:32:14  <glx> wow 28 untranslated and 42 needing validation
21:33:10  <planetmaker> I also just needed to translate half a dozen. I expected one :P
21:35:19  <glx> and I need to check the source for some of them (to see the usage)
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21:35:48  <planetmaker> which?
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21:36:56  <planetmaker> ah, if you know the timetable window. It now gives estimates, even when not time tabled - based on info gathered anyway for cargodist
21:37:09  <glx> well for this one it's a duration I guess, but I think I had the "travlel for" one wrong ;)
21:37:10  <planetmaker> so the same usage as the actually fixed scheduled
21:47:15  <andythenorth> bedtime
21:47:16  <andythenorth> bye
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21:49:05  <frosch123> night
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21:51:54  <Eddi|zuHause> anybody have a problem with firefox not properly exiting?
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22:35:16  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:40:57  <glx> pff done
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