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Log for #openttd on 25th May 2014:
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08:58:05  <Alberth> moin to all awake at this time
08:59:59  <Xaroth|Work> o/
09:06:44  <Taede> mornin
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10:50:15  <Alberth> quak
10:50:36  <LordAro> ^
10:51:15  <frosch123> hai
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11:03:40  <Aristide> Hi :)
11:03:46  <Alberth> o/
11:05:14  <Aristide> Alberth: \o
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11:08:55  <Aristide> SNCF : https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BoJcthxIEAA55iV.jpg :troll:
11:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> in germany you sometimes have frames before the bridge with a slightly smaller size, so when a truck would hit the bridge, it would hit the frame instead
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11:10:36  <Aristide> ^^
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11:11:09  <Taede> same in the netherlands
11:11:22  <Taede> though they tend to be same height, but with chains dangling down
11:11:23  <Aristide> Eddi|zuHause: I don't know if you know, but SNCF has bought 2 000 too larger trains :')
11:11:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Aristide: yes i heard
11:11:42  <Aristide> :p
11:11:45  <Aristide> Its fun :x
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11:13:12  <Eddi|zuHause> it's way better than in germany, where they buy trains which don't get delivered, or you can't sit when you have normal sized legs, or the doors won't close
11:13:31  <Aristide> ^^
11:13:43  <Aristide> In Lyon, we have an other example about Confluence Museum
11:13:59  <Aristide> 2000 : 61 000 000 € :D
11:14:07  <Aristide> 2011 : 267 000 000 € :D
11:14:39  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like the Elbphilharmonie in Hamburg
11:15:18  <Eddi|zuHause> and don't even get started about Stuttgart train station and Berlin airport :p
11:15:37  <Aristide> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musée_des_Confluences :x
11:17:31  <Aristide> Here we have a problem in a gare : Part Dieu is ready for 35 000 peoples per day, but actually : 120 000 peoples per day use this gare
11:18:00  <Aristide> 180 000 000 € must be invested
11:19:42  <Eddi|zuHause> the original estimate for the Elbphilharmonie was 77 Mio €, upon starting construction in 2007 it was 114 Mio €, in 2012 it was 575 Mio € and in 2013 789 Mio €
11:20:16  <Aristide> :')
11:20:30  <Aristide> I don't know what is final cost in 2013 or 2014 :/
11:20:45  <Eddi|zuHause> also the finishing date was ever pushed backwards
11:21:18  <Aristide> :')
11:21:36  <Alberth> and then people claim only ict projects get out of hand :p
11:22:43  <Eddi|zuHause> and the "Stuttgart 21" project, where they completely remove the dead end station of stuttgart, and replace it with an underground station 90° turned, originally was meant to cost 1 Mrd €, it's currently estimated at over 4 Mrd €, which was always said as "at this point it can't refinance itself", and probably will cost double that
11:23:55  <Eddi|zuHause> they actually got violent protests on that one
11:24:05  <Eddi|zuHause> including police brutality
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11:24:30  <Wolf01> hi hi
11:24:31  <Alberth> o/
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11:26:37  <Rubidium> cost overruns are normal due to the way the 'higher' ups present the budgets
11:26:59  <Wolf01> ahah I just re-read the comment of Rubidium about the auto-update of grfs "There are plans to implement something, but before that gets useful we'll probably be in 2012 or something." <- yeah, it's more like something, better late than never ;)
11:27:55  <Rubidium> the lower levels say: part X will cost 10-40 million, then all these numbers of all subparts get aggregrated, so you'll get something like it will cost 1 billion - 4 billion. Finally the highest level will say: it will cost at most 1 billion
11:29:36  <Rubidium> heh... that's only a two year overrun for a project where nobody can really pressure someone else to do something; I'd say that's quite good
11:30:05  <Wolf01> really
11:30:52  <Rubidium> and it stayed within budget; it's still EUR 0,00. Exactly what was budgetted
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11:39:18  <Samu> hi, is brumi here?
11:39:23  <Eddi|zuHause> is the game version not part of the image metadata?
11:42:01  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it should be
11:42:20  <Eddi|zuHause> not in this file: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=178896
11:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i see it
11:42:54  <Rubidium> that's h122e7a62
11:42:54  <Eddi|zuHause> "Software                        : h122e7a62"
11:43:11  <Rubidium> chillpp
11:43:20  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i recognize that number
11:43:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i guess that is waaaaay too old for the house date fix
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11:45:47  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: [NewGRF] If a NewGRF overrides a default house the minimum start year for that house was set to 1930?
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11:46:37  <Rubidium> that's 1.1.4-RC1 (november 2011), whereas the chillpp build is of july 2012
11:46:45  <Eddi|zuHause> does not sound right. more like "assure that a house for each town zone is available at game start"
11:47:19  <Eddi|zuHause> -Fix [FS#4600]: try to make sure there is an early house available in the current climate for every townzone, not just a single available house for all climates/townzones
11:47:20  <Rubidium> then I have no clue
11:48:35  <Rubidium> that's april 2011 / 1.1.1-RC1
11:49:19  <Eddi|zuHause> afair chillpp stopped updating somewhere halfway to 1.2
11:50:13  <Rubidium> https://hg.openttdcoop.org/chillpp <- that revision log looks just wrong
11:51:51  <Eddi|zuHause> my chillpp checkout is of r22273, whereas the above house fix is r22389
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11:52:31  <Eddi|zuHause> but i probably don't have the very latest chillpp
11:55:00  <Samu> Brumi: you there?
11:55:07  <Brumi> yeah
11:55:19  <Samu> i finally got it
11:55:32  <Samu> a replay with TTDX AI building an helicopter
11:55:34  <Samu> need?
11:55:42  <Brumi> wow
11:55:48  <Brumi> yes I'm interested
11:55:53  <Samu> replay = savegame, oops
11:55:55  <Brumi> seen any ships since then :)
11:55:58  <Brumi> ?
11:56:08  <Samu> nop, not that im aware
11:58:22  <Samu> sec
11:58:48  <Samu> http://1drv.ms/1r5KRgE
11:58:55  <Samu> TRT11.SV1
11:59:07  <Samu> it's the orange company
12:00:31  <Brumi> thx
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12:01:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: afair, ChillPP stopped right before all the GRFv8 stuff was commited, and then only singular revisions were backported
12:02:36  <Brumi> hmm oil rig again
12:02:52  <Brumi> it seems that the TTD AI had some special support for oil rigs
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12:03:50  <Samu> :)
12:05:16  <Alberth> sounds reasonable; oil rigs are special in a number of ways
12:18:15  <Samu> I must try the other tilesets
12:19:21  <Samu> it took me nearly 2 weeks to finally get an AI to make an helicopter
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12:38:07  <Aristide> https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/t1.0-9/p320x320/10313584_611869488908392_1501301217353287185_n.jpg ^^
12:38:08  <Aristide> xD
12:38:48  <Aristide> Believe me my experience SNCF engineering station, it goes nickel
12:38:51  <Aristide> (For translate)
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13:19:59  <Eddi|zuHause> besides that i find the joke inappropriate, what does "nickel" mean in that context?
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14:46:51  <yorick> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5679 personally, I would like to be able to use keys like ., /, [, ] as hotkeys. without those keys, the right half of my keyboard is reduced to 11 usable hotkeys instead of the possible 17, creating some serious usability loss that seems rather unneeded
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14:49:41  <Eddi|zuHause> yorick: those keys are not easily accessible on many keyboard layouts
14:51:26  <yorick> Eddi|zuHause: the user wanting to set those keys in their hotkeys settings will probably have them, and they are accessible on the most frequently used keyboard layouts
14:56:17  <frosch123> i think öÀÌ+#ߎ are way better accessible
14:57:39  <yorick> seems like a good reason to include those too :)
15:02:10  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26614 /trunk/src (3 files in 3 dirs) (2014-05-25 15:02:04 UTC)
15:02:11  <DorpsGek> -Add: Adv. settings window can handle the autosave setting as well.
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17:45:51  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r26615 /trunk/src/lang (7 files) (2014-05-25 17:45:39 UTC)
17:45:52  <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:53  <DorpsGek> catalan - 42 changes by juanjo
17:45:54  <DorpsGek> english_AU - 10 changes by mrtux
17:45:55  <DorpsGek> finnish - 10 changes by jpx_
17:45:56  <DorpsGek> french - 10 changes by glx
17:45:57  <DorpsGek> korean - 11 changes by telk5093
17:45:58  <DorpsGek> russian - 4 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:45:59  <DorpsGek> spanish - 3 changes by juanjo
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17:54:44  <planetmaker> good evening
17:55:00  <Rubidium> evening
17:56:11  <frosch123> translators are soo lazy
17:56:22  <frosch123> at least the german ones
17:56:43  <frosch123> hai pm :)
17:57:49  <Rubidium> s/german/non-Catalan/ ;)
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18:13:25  <planetmaker> :P
18:19:43  <andythenorth> o/
18:47:39  *** MTsPony [~marctraid@076-010-128-083.dynamic.caiway.nl] has joined #openttd
18:47:45  <MTsPony> Ahoy!
18:47:55  <Alberth> o/
18:48:19  <MTsPony> Im new here, but not unfamiliar with TT(D) :p
18:48:35  <Alberth> welcome :)
18:48:54  <MTsPony> was about to start a new sub-tropic 4096x4096 server but some folks requested some additions i was gonna meet up here :p
18:48:56  <planetmaker> we're only familiar with OpenTTD here ;)
18:49:03  <MTsPony> :p
18:51:07  <MTsPony> anyway thanks for the welcome!
18:52:28  <Alberth> so you're playing with 30 or so persons?
18:52:54  <MTsPony> Well, not yet. The plan is to make a big server capable of around that
18:53:33  <MTsPony> I had one started up, but some folks wanted some GRF additions etc, also I'm prolly gonna use the reddit build with daylenght patch
18:54:35  <Alberth> with 16 persons each has 1024x1024 tiles
18:54:49  <Alberth> with 32 persons that's 512x1024
18:54:56  <MTsPony> Interesting.
18:54:58  <planetmaker> he... on coop we play on 1024 tiles for weeks
18:55:05  <planetmaker> 1024²
18:55:15  <MTsPony> hax :p
18:55:26  <planetmaker> no, contrary to that we do not use any patches
18:55:34  <Eddi|zuHause> with 4096² people will have trouble signing on earlier
18:55:38  <Alberth> so nobody will run into each other
18:55:40  <MTsPony> Could anyone shed some light on the bandwidth requirements for like a 16 man player 4096x4096 server?
18:55:52  <Alberth> bandwitdh is not the problem
18:55:53  <planetmaker> 3kbit / client
18:55:55  <Eddi|zuHause> bandwidth is negligible, CPU power is relevant
18:56:05  <MTsPony> i7 @ 4.4ghz doable?
18:56:05  <planetmaker> additionally the downloads of the map when joining
18:56:18  <planetmaker> MTsPony, every client needs a *better* CPU than the server
18:56:27  <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: the CPU power of every single client
18:56:27  <planetmaker> mind that :)
18:56:46  <MTsPony> so far the cpu usage has been around 1-2% on 4096x4096 maps here, with around 300 trains
18:56:47  <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: as odd as it sounds, you get the best results when the server is the slowest
18:57:03  <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: also, single-core speed matters
18:57:13  <MTsPony> that'd be 4.4ghz i7 single core then :p
18:57:38  <Alberth> your % is probably for all cores
18:57:48  <planetmaker> on windows it surely is
18:58:32  <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony: the easiest metrics of whether your computer can handle stuff is when you take a really full game (like >1000 vehicles and lots of cargo) and press the fast forward button.
18:58:44  <Eddi|zuHause> if the game still speeds up significantly, you're fine
18:58:52  <MTsPony> yeh ok
18:59:45  <Alberth> not that 1000 vehicles at 30 persons is just 30 vehicles each
18:59:48  <Alberth> *note
19:00:17  <Alberth> ie done in a few game years at normal speed
19:01:37  <DorpsGek> Commit by planetmaker :: r26616 trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp (2014-05-25 19:01:30 UTC)
19:01:38  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26576) [FS#6025]: First send packages about new company, then clients joining it to admin port (Taede)
19:02:02  <Eddi|zuHause> that grammar is off...
19:02:48  <Eddi|zuHause> at the very least it's missing a comma, which makes it really hard to understand on first read
19:03:05  <Taede> or an 'about'
19:03:19  <Taede> 'then about clients joining it'
19:03:37  <Taede> also, ello
19:04:32  <planetmaker> I hope you don't mind that I now don't hack the svn server to fix the stored commit message ;)
19:04:48  <Eddi|zuHause> I DO!!
19:05:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and to support my anger, i release __ln___ onto you!!
19:05:20  <Taede> lol
19:05:34  * Taede is content with having a first patch in trunk
19:05:41  <Eddi|zuHause> s/support/emphasise/
19:05:44  <planetmaker> oh noes! /me quickly hides
19:08:27  <andythenorth> did a bit more today https://www.flickr.com/photos/andythenorth/14264965852/in/photostream/
19:08:38  <andythenorth> those two grey things are linear actuators for the articulated steering
19:09:10  <Alberth> it escaped from the lab/house!
19:10:11  <Alberth> looks much better, in the wild :)
19:12:20  <frosch123> hmm, oh, i found a forums tab
19:12:36  <frosch123> i opened it this morning, but then thought maybe read it later :p
19:12:54  <frosch123> i guess i just skip it today :)
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19:15:45  <Eddi|zuHause> "Vitali Klitschko is new mayor of Kiew"
19:20:50  <LSky`> MTsPony, if you need help with the reddit client and its settings, send me a message
19:22:03  <MTsPony> hey
19:22:28  <LSky`> hi, Jinassi told me you were looking for some help. seems like youve had some questions answered already though
19:22:39  <planetmaker> I would find it much more interesting, if someone started a server which always uses the current nightly
19:22:53  <planetmaker> Thus updates at like 21h CET or so
19:23:14  <LSky`> it would mean people would have to update their client though, right?
19:23:26  <planetmaker> well, they would yes
19:23:54  <LSky`> ifor testing purposes, it makes total sense
19:24:02  <planetmaker> but that's not more complicated, on the contrary, it's easier than installing a 'custom' client
19:24:03  <LSky`> but for actual playing, I dont see that working out too well
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19:24:20  <Alberth> you can also update twice a week or so
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19:24:31  <planetmaker> and there's several auto-updates which give you nightly or so just by a mouse click
19:24:32  <Jinassi> Hi
19:24:56  <planetmaker> well, with coop we update like once a week. Usually prior to a new map. Unless I simply update :P
19:26:38  <planetmaker> well, and stable server only updates when there's a new testing or stable release... But then also mid-game :)
19:26:55  <frosch123> you kind of want to update when noone is playing
19:27:13  <frosch123> so, rather 9am instead of 9pm :p
19:27:34  <frosch123> resp. on wednesday or thursday if weekly
19:28:05  <planetmaker> yeah, also viable :)
19:28:35  <planetmaker> There once was a nightly server and it had a quite active community really
19:33:37  <Eddi|zuHause> but even that did not update daily
19:34:14  <planetmaker> dih's server did
19:34:58  <Jinassi> hey, openttdcoop peeps, does your resolution tweak from 2006 blopost still applies to current revisions?
19:35:03  <Jinassi> http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2006/09/04/reduce-server-cpu-usage-drastically/
19:35:49  <planetmaker> I will be surprised
19:36:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Jinassi: dedicated server has had an overhaul since then
19:36:40  <Jinassi> yes it is an old tweak, hence i am asking
19:37:12  <Eddi|zuHause> basically a "dedicated blitter" has been introduced that discards screen output at earlier stages of processing
19:38:03  <Eddi|zuHause> whereas back then all the sprite sorting and buffering still happened, just the push to the graphics driver never happened
19:38:18  <Eddi|zuHause> now also the sprite sorting is skipped
19:38:43  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you specifically enable it
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19:39:03  <Jinassi> Alright, so help me here a bit, I'm on wiki and am really curious what value should I write to usethat dedicated blitter?
19:39:14  <Eddi|zuHause> (that only makes sense if you want to take screenshots and stuff from the server console, so nobody really does it)
19:39:41  <Eddi|zuHause> the dedicated blitter is automatically used when you start in dedicated mode (-D)
19:39:48  <Jinassi> no, want to help make a 4k x 4k map and really use any helpfull tweak to make it run smooth
19:39:58  <Jinassi> Thank you very much
19:40:02  <MTsPony> :o
19:41:14  <planetmaker> Jinassi, as I said earlier to MTsPony: whatever the server does, *every client* needs a more powerful CPU
19:41:22  <planetmaker> As it additionally also has to handle the graphics output
19:42:31  <Eddi|zuHause> MTsPony, Jinassi: when the server is too fast, people will drop out of the game because their clients cannot keep up
19:43:39  <Jinassi> we had lotsa practice on /r/openttd and many empires were built and demolished
19:44:11  <Eddi|zuHause> if you speed up the server, you make the issue worse
19:45:43  <Jinassi> lsky tooks great care of us and a well polished custom build didn't bring us to that issue...yet
19:45:55  <Jinassi> *server and client
19:46:05  <LSky`> what issue?
19:46:26  <Jinassi> server too fast, clents cant keep up
19:47:02  <planetmaker> that mod does not change anything on that end, Jinassi ;)
19:48:58  <LSky`> nope
19:50:05  <LSky`> but weve had issues with clients not being able to keep up
19:50:13  <LSky`> as explained before, its dependent on client hardware
19:50:55  <MTsPony> when would the server be too fast?
19:51:18  <Rubidium> when clients can't keep up with the server?
19:51:59  <planetmaker> MTsPony, basically it depends on what you expect your *average* client to handle, on how wide the computer speed varies between your different clients. And the percentage of possible clients you want to exclude by your settings :)
19:52:29  <planetmaker> (and maybe those which you gain by running the hardware-intensive settings)
19:53:22  <MTsPony> so if some guy with a pentium 1 connects, Or even manages, every game will run dog slow?
19:53:27  <LSky`> no
19:53:30  <LSky`> he will just lag out
19:53:32  <MTsPony> ah
19:53:53  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26617 /trunk/src/script (4 files) (2014-05-25 19:53:46 UTC)
19:53:54  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5973]: [Script] Loading/parsing of info .nuts was done in the same VM, causing e.g. constants to break the loading of info of other scripts
19:54:25  <LSky`> its better explained like this
19:54:30  <LSky`> the server doesnt run 'fast'
19:54:41  <LSky`> it just runs its pace, but eventually clients will be unable to keep up
19:54:44  <LSky`> theyre too slow
19:55:16  <planetmaker> MTsPony, you simply will not learn to know them. For the reasons lsky just said
19:55:26  <planetmaker> they never will be able to see the map or say a word ingame
19:55:44  <MTsPony> ah
19:55:46  <MTsPony> well. in that
19:55:47  <MTsPony> case
19:55:53  <MTsPony> they should upgrade their pc or connection eh? :p
19:56:21  <Alberth> no, their CPU cannot keep up
19:57:23  <Alberth> if your server runs at 100%, you run the game only
19:57:39  <Alberth> a client needs to run the same game AND draw the images to the screen
19:58:02  <planetmaker> my unqualified experience tells me, a client needs 20% more cpu
19:58:17  <Taede> and contrary to most other games out there, drawing is done mostly by cpu instead of gfx card
19:59:48  <Alberth> on the other hand, if you have a slow server, the game as a whole slows down earlier, but all clients then have time to draw the graphics
20:00:02  <Alberth> and stay  connected
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20:05:22  <MTsPony> anyone know the highest settings for
20:05:23  <MTsPony> [network]
20:05:23  <MTsPony> commands_per_frame = 2
20:05:23  <MTsPony> max_commands_in_queue = 16
20:05:23  <MTsPony> bytes_per_frame = 8
20:05:24  <MTsPony> bytes_per_frame_burst = 256
20:05:24  <MTsPony> max_init_time = 20000
20:05:26  <MTsPony> max_join_time = 20000
20:05:26  <MTsPony> max_download_time = 32000
20:05:28  <MTsPony> max_password_time = 4000
20:05:28  <MTsPony> max_lag_time = 1000
20:05:30  <MTsPony> pause_on_join = true
20:05:32  <MTsPony> the *time entries anyway
20:06:48  <Taede> not of the top of my head, but if you type for instance 'set commands_per_frame' without a value, it will tell you the current value as well as a min/max value where applicable
20:06:58  <Taede> in the console
20:06:58  <MTsPony> kk thx
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20:22:15  <RageRiot|> Hi, I was asking yesterday about font sizes. I changed the medium font to somthing easier on my eyes but the size isnt increasing.
20:23:36  <RageRiot|> medium_size =  16
20:23:47  <RageRiot|> the font stayed the same size,
20:26:17  <frosch123> you also have to change the font, not only the size
20:26:19  <RageRiot|> Also music isnt playing. I looked at the Faq which suggests I need timidity which is installed on my system. The commands it suggests I enter returns an error
20:26:25  <frosch123> the default font does not support different sizes
20:26:54  <RageRiot|> I did
20:27:02  <RageRiot|> medium_font = DejaVu Sans Mono Bold
20:27:03  <RageRiot|> medium_size = 8
20:27:34  <RageRiot|> that should have been 16 but I tested with 8
20:28:25  <frosch123> is that really the font name?
20:29:20  <frosch123> maybe you mean the font "DejaVu Sans Mono" in the bold variant? then it would be "DejaVu Sand Mono, bold"
20:30:37  <planetmaker> good night
20:32:21  <RageRiot|> hmm I think it is working now I've chose a different font
20:33:22  <RageRiot|> ye I think it kept going back to a defualt font when I used DejaVu Sand Mono, bold
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20:33:42  <frosch123> if you copied my typo :p
20:34:20  <RageRiot|> lol haha ye good point but I tried it last night where I copied front the font viewer on linux mint
20:35:59  <RageRiot|> I've gotta go out for a bit. I'll ask about the sound when I get back.
20:36:01  <RageRiot|> Thansk
20:36:07  <RageRiot|> thanks*
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21:08:10  <Wolf01> 'night all
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22:43:59  <Eddi|zuHause> RageRiot|: are you absolutely sure the font changes?
22:47:28  <Eddi|zuHause> RageRiot|: can you get some relevant debug output?
22:49:07  <Jinassi> prolly has an old config file, i don't see any font settings in win version
22:49:30  <Jinassi> though he's on linux if i remember correctly
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23:32:05  <RageRiot|> hey eddi yeh it reallt does seem to work now.
23:36:31  <Jinassi> Rage, do tell me how did you make it work, i play on 3 montors and on high resolution it really puts a strain on eyes
23:37:00  <RageRiot|> I think you need to have the font in quotes
23:37:10  <RageRiot|> and bold after the comma
23:37:21  <RageRiot|> small_font = "Bitstream Charterf, Bold"
23:39:22  <Jinassi> is AA false or true?
23:39:55  <RageRiot|> I left mine false but I might play with that later
23:40:03  <Jinassi> rgr
23:43:24  <RageRiot|> are you on linux as well Jinassi  ?
23:43:49  <RageRiot|> music isnt workin on mine.
23:43:57  <Jinassi> win7
23:44:10  <RageRiot|> ok
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