Log for #openttd on 17th June 2014:
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06:13:43  <DorpsGek> Commit by fonsinchen :: r26650 trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp (2014-06-17 06:13:38 UTC)
06:13:44  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6041]: Support save/load chunk lengths of up to (1 << 32) - 1
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06:43:31  <andythenorth> I’ve forgotten everything I know about nfo
06:43:37  <andythenorth> what kind of action is this?
06:43:38  <andythenorth> 51 * 11 00 00 \b1 01 FF \wx0546 1A FF \wx0549
06:45:16  <planetmaker> a0 trains
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06:52:05  <andythenorth> it looks like buy menu sort order
06:52:10  <andythenorth> nforenum hates it
06:52:46  <planetmaker> I'd recon it's properties 01 and 1A as extended bytes
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06:54:33  <Eddi|zuHause> you're saying "change 1 property" and then set two?
06:54:42  <planetmaker> indeed
06:55:01  <andythenorth> dunno
06:55:05  <andythenorth> it’s nmlc output
06:55:30  <planetmaker> though I thought it would meant to change one ID
06:55:39  <planetmaker> too long ago that I wrote or read nfo
06:56:42  <andythenorth> it’s definitely generated by sort()
06:56:50  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, so it's not prop 01
06:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it's 01 props of ID FF \wxblah
06:57:23  <planetmaker> why then \b1 01 ?
06:57:38  <andythenorth> maybe I have a really old nforenum
06:57:38  <Eddi|zuHause> one ID, and one prop
06:57:40  <andythenorth> /!!Error (141): ID 12 07 out of valid range (00..73).
06:57:49  <andythenorth> since when is 73 the max ID for a train?
06:57:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: too old nforenum, i suppose
06:57:55  <planetmaker> you got an ancient nforenum?
06:58:03  <andythenorth> going to check
06:58:13  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or ancient data files in some config directory
06:58:16  <andythenorth> NFORenum trunk r958
06:58:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i had that problem a long time ago
06:58:48  <andythenorth> objs?
06:59:12  <andythenorth> hmm
06:59:15  <andythenorth> this is like archeology
06:59:51  <planetmaker> NFORenum 6.0.4 r980 - Copyright (C) 2004-2013 by Dale McCoy
07:01:02  * andythenorth updates to tip
07:02:33  <planetmaker> public   [970:efcb99e7b53c default] 2013-11-08 23:53 +0100
07:02:33  <planetmaker>         Fix #5279: allow higher vehicle IDs when a GRF version 8 NFO is given
07:03:19  <andythenorth> so it’s my nforenum
07:03:20  <andythenorth> thanks
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07:13:46  <andythenorth> hmm
07:13:49  <andythenorth> got a grf
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07:14:02  <andythenorth> the realsprites are all garbled
07:14:24  <andythenorth> and the railtypes are borked
07:14:38  <andythenorth> and as expected, many strings are failing
07:15:12  <planetmaker> yes, the pesky details nml guards you against ;)
07:15:47  <andythenorth> I wonder what goes wrong in the nml->nfo step
07:16:16  <andythenorth> I need to compare the linked and non-linked nfo
07:16:22  <andythenorth> but anyway, later
07:16:23  <andythenorth> thanks for the help
07:16:42  <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with the sprites?
07:21:32  <andythenorth> white pixels
07:21:39  <andythenorth> crops are wrong I think
07:21:58  <andythenorth> again, that nfo is pure nmlc output
07:22:09  <andythenorth> so something is transposed
07:23:35  <andythenorth> hmm
07:23:47  <andythenorth> aren’t width and height reversed in nfo?
07:24:01  <Eddi|zuHause> not in grfv8
07:24:11  <andythenorth> ah
07:24:40  <Eddi|zuHause> or rather nfo32
07:25:35  <Eddi|zuHause> although i've never seen someone use nfo32 and then produce a v7 grf
07:28:29  <andythenorth> hmm
07:28:29  <peter1139> laa laa laa
07:28:37  <andythenorth> some crops are coming out with 1 1
07:28:40  <andythenorth> interesting
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07:29:20  <andythenorth> irrelevant
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07:56:44  <andythenorth> why is nmlc outputting train prop 1D 3 times?
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07:59:39  <__ln__>
08:01:07  <NGC982> __ln__: :-O
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08:09:06  <andythenorth> give this realsprite
08:10:34  <andythenorth>  8680 generated/graphics/tank_car_ng_brit_gen_1_0.png 8bpp 60 10 8 25 -3 -21 normal
08:10:45  <andythenorth> and this png
08:10:52  <andythenorth> I get 200px of white reported
08:11:17  <andythenorth> but the 200px (8 * 25) at x = 60, y = 10 are not white
08:11:19  <andythenorth> so what gives
08:11:26  <andythenorth> ?
08:11:53  <andythenorth> it’s an 8bpp paletted png
08:12:45  <andythenorth> top of nfo file contains “// (Info version 32)”
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08:24:36  <andythenorth> well maybe I’ll spot the issue later :P
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14:53:32  <andythenorth> hmm
14:57:30  <peter1139> mmh
14:57:38  <planetmaker> mhm
14:59:23  <andythenorth> I’ve done something to make grfcodec barf on my realsprites
14:59:28  <andythenorth> it thinks they’re all white
15:01:14  <planetmaker> maybe they are? As the path to the real sprites is wrong?
15:01:18  <andythenorth> yes
15:01:25  <andythenorth> that appears to be the case
15:01:31  <andythenorth> simply not using the right realsprite
15:01:34  <andythenorth> dunno why though
15:03:16  * andythenorth reading nfo
15:03:17  <andythenorth> nfo is fun
15:03:41  <andythenorth> where’s the action 3 :P
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15:05:15  <andythenorth> planetmaker: got 5 mins to verify something for me?
15:05:20  <andythenorth> np if busy
15:06:05  <planetmaker> I guess I do
15:07:27  <andythenorth> with Iron Horse, make nfo from iron-horse.nml with nmlc, and encode with grfcodec....
15:07:58  <andythenorth> my nml and iron-horse repos are both in a state of ‘work in progress’ :P
15:09:01  <Alberth> o/
15:09:09  * Alberth got here in time today?
15:09:44  <andythenorth> yup
15:09:54  * andythenorth has broken something
15:10:12  <planetmaker> o/ Albert :)
15:10:47  * andythenorth wonders why grfcodec wants null_trailing_part.png so many times
15:13:52  <andythenorth> I thought it was valid to do: realsprites, action 2, more realsprites, action 2, varaction 2, action 3
15:16:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: some versions of grfcodec had issues with interlaced pngs
15:16:27  <andythenorth> thanks
15:16:35  <Eddi|zuHause> but that affected only 32bpp for me
15:16:37  <andythenorth> I think this might be EAndythenorth somewhere
15:16:40  <andythenorth> waiting to see what pm finds
15:16:53  <planetmaker> so, andythenorth, I don't get any white pixel warnings with grfcodec
15:17:05  <andythenorth> hrm
15:17:17  <andythenorth> ok so the problem is newly introduced thanks
15:18:02  <andythenorth> planetmaker: which grfcodec?
15:18:04  <planetmaker> after I installed python3-ply, python3-pillow and found the lang dir and how to teach nmlc about it :P
15:18:07  <planetmaker> yes
15:18:24  <planetmaker> it should warn me about them, should it?
15:19:49  <planetmaker>
15:20:40  <andythenorth> it’s warning me
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15:20:59  <andythenorth> the pattern of sprites loaded is different for me
15:21:04  <andythenorth> far more null_trailing_part.png
15:21:31  <andythenorth> I’ve broken something :P
15:22:10  <planetmaker> I ran make on a clean iron-horse. nml2nfo'ed the nml. And then grfcodec'ed the resulting nfo.
15:23:44  <andythenorth> it’s good that it works
15:23:54  <andythenorth> fixing my code is easier than fixing grfcodec or nmlc :P
15:24:41  <planetmaker> you did not try with a clean checkout?
15:25:11  <planetmaker> local clones are dirt cheap to get by...
15:25:41  <planetmaker> as you've got an OS with a sensible file system it only costs a few links
15:25:45  <andythenorth> I might try that later, right now I have my own nmlc too, with uncommitted changes
15:25:51  <andythenorth> I could fix it I guess
15:26:06  <planetmaker> well, clone that, too ;)
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15:29:36  <andythenorth> are there any ill effects expected from repeating the grfcodec header comments block?
15:29:43  <andythenorth>
15:31:00  <andythenorth> planetmaker: may I have the nfo you generated? o_O
15:31:43  <planetmaker>
15:31:47  <andythenorth> ta
15:31:51  <planetmaker> np
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15:35:48  <andythenorth> meh
15:35:54  <andythenorth> planetmaker: if you replace your nfo with this, does it fail?
15:35:57  <andythenorth> it should :P
15:37:24  <planetmaker> ./3443.nfo:1: Warning: Found 9036 fewer sprites than sprite 0 reports.
15:37:24  <planetmaker> Loading generated/graphics/chaplin_0.png(Transparency:100%, Redundancy:100%)
15:37:44  <planetmaker> no white sprites though
15:37:52  <andythenorth> nforenum it
15:38:11  <andythenorth> the current expected failure is a spritesheet not being tall enough
15:38:17  * andythenorth is fighting bees
15:38:40  <planetmaker> Loading generated/graphics/chaplin_0.png(Transparency:100%, Redundancy:100%)
15:38:40  <planetmaker>  thus remains
15:39:51  <andythenorth> interesting
15:40:04  <andythenorth> maybe the problem really is the sprites
15:40:13  * andythenorth headache :(
15:40:17  <andythenorth> nfo always does that
15:40:52  <planetmaker> it does. Thus I dearly avoid it
15:41:12  <planetmaker> reminds me... I wanted to do a station set
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15:46:34  <andythenorth> planetmaker: it says nothing about loading null_trailing_part.png?
15:49:55  <andythenorth> ah
15:49:55  <andythenorth>
15:50:06  <andythenorth> oic
15:50:56  <andythenorth> that is the probelm
15:51:00  <andythenorth> problem *
15:53:25  <andythenorth> compiling 6.0.3 doesn’t resolve it
15:53:38  <andythenorth> lots of compiler warnings too
15:54:49  <andythenorth>
15:57:11  <andythenorth> planetmaker: can I have your grfcodec 6.0.3 binary?
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16:00:22  <planetmaker> andythenorth: how will that help you? It's build non-static for my OS (debian wheezy x64)
16:00:27  <andythenorth> ah
16:00:39  <andythenorth> sorry, assumed you had an OS X compiled version :P
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16:01:04  <planetmaker> even then, it would be non-static for 10.6
16:01:11  <planetmaker> that wouldn't work on your machine either
16:01:11  <andythenorth> hmm
16:01:24  <andythenorth> so grfcodec is game-overed currently for me
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16:02:39  <planetmaker> you got libpng and zlib available?
16:02:46  <planetmaker> thus yours is built with those?
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16:03:41  <andythenorth> libpng-1.5.14
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16:06:06  <andythenorth> just installed zlib
16:06:13  <andythenorth> fewer compile warnings now (just one)
16:06:23  <andythenorth> but still the spritesheet lines error
16:09:41  <andythenorth> but
16:09:46  <andythenorth> I don’t have this issue with road-hog
16:09:57  <andythenorth> grfcodec works fine there, produces a valid grf
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16:15:59  <andythenorth> bit weird, eh?
16:21:14  <Alberth> all sprites are the same?
16:23:10  <andythenorth> between the two grfs?  Or in Iron Horse?
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16:25:33  <Alberth> I thought the error happened when you process 2 sprites at the same time? (didn't carefully read it though, could be wrong)
16:25:50  <Alberth> if all sprites have the same layout, you won't notice it
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16:29:00  <andythenorth> this is plausible
16:29:26  <andythenorth> there are multiple spritesheets for each action 3 in Iron Horse
16:29:36  <andythenorth> whereas only one per action 3 in Road Hog
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16:30:26  <andythenorth> it’s as though it picks up the wrong set of bounding box sizes etc
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16:36:03  <andythenorth> if I find-and-replace to just one spritesheet, it compiles
16:37:04  <Alberth> you doubted the existence of the bug?
16:37:37  <planetmaker> seems to work on linux, though, Alberth :)
16:37:56  <andythenorth> I wanted to isolate the cause :P
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16:38:21  <andythenorth> so do I finally have to give in, and do newgrf dev in virtualbox?
16:38:22  <andythenorth> :P
16:38:26  <Alberth> planetmaker: interesting :)
16:38:52  <planetmaker> but dunno the amount of local modifications andy has in each of the tools .P
16:39:15  <andythenorth> grfcodec, zero :P
16:39:51  <andythenorth> I think we can assume grfcodec is game-over on OS X Mavericks
16:40:06  <planetmaker> I wouldn't understand why
16:40:20  <Alberth> yeah, seems weird
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16:40:59  <Alberth> downgrading to 0.6.3 not an option ?
16:41:14  <andythenorth> 6.0.3 shows same issue for me
16:41:24  <Alberth> :o
16:41:26  <andythenorth> I have to compile it myself, and I suspect the issue is the compile
16:41:46  <andythenorth> I assume it’s building with clang or whatever
16:41:46  <andythenorth> not gcc
16:41:59  <andythenorth> I could build gcc, and try forcing it to compile with gcc
16:42:00  <andythenorth> dunno how
16:42:27  <andythenorth> the nfo planetmaker generated also fails
16:42:40  <andythenorth> the only other thing it could be is the pngs, and I see nothing wrong there
16:42:40  <Alberth> hmm, good point, no idea how stable clang is
16:43:03  <Alberth> or pnglib, but that's very unlikely as well
16:43:04  <andythenorth> none of you can compile with Mavericks, and none of us with Mavericks can fix it :)
16:43:12  <andythenorth> so it’s stuck
16:43:59  <Alberth> :(
16:44:23  * andythenorth ponders pcx
16:44:25  <Alberth> if it's really the compiler I wouldn't know how to debug that
16:44:39  <Alberth> let alone fixing it :)
16:45:01  <planetmaker> andythenorth, nml has a regression folder. Do those nfo work for you with grfcodec?
16:45:07  <planetmaker> with nml as well?
16:45:44  <andythenorth> hmm issue occurs with pcx too
16:45:52  <Alberth> kk
16:46:02  <Alberth> that rules out the png lib stuff
16:46:17  <andythenorth> currently my nml tests are broken
16:46:18  <planetmaker> andythenorth, can you make a minimal test case?
16:46:21  <andythenorth> but I’ve discounted my nml
16:46:27  <andythenorth> I have planetmaker’s nfo
16:46:38  <planetmaker> why are nml tests borked?
16:46:54  <andythenorth> because I have a patch
16:47:02  <andythenorth> I could fix that, but I think it’s non-relevant
16:47:12  <andythenorth> your nfo fails too
16:47:13  <planetmaker> for grfcodec, sure is
16:47:42  <andythenorth> reminds me to make my patch pass tests though :P
16:50:20  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I added here
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16:53:45  <Alberth> hai
16:53:45  <planetmaker> quaak
16:54:14  <andythenorth> ribbit
16:56:05  <andythenorth> it’s exactly as snail says - as though grfcodec is garbling which spritesheet to use
16:58:56  * andythenorth considers restructuring the grf to a single spritesheet
16:59:03  <Alberth> since not all compilers do that, it's likely to be either a bug in the OSX compiler, or the source relies on undefined behavior
16:59:29  <Alberth> where gcc then does a happy thing, and apple does  the non-happy thing
16:59:55  <Alberth> throw a little pillow into the equation?
16:59:59  <andythenorth> :P
17:01:08  <andythenorth> I am seriously considering using PIL to concatenate all the spritesheets to one
17:01:23  <andythenorth> it’s probably not The Right Solution
17:02:32  <planetmaker> andythenorth, did you try to build grfcodec with gcc?
17:02:46  <planetmaker> on my machine I have like gcc_select which allows me to choose the version of gcc to use
17:02:50  <andythenorth> I’d need to get gcc I think
17:03:07  <planetmaker> obviously it will need to be different with clang. But getting gcc should not be hard, no?
17:03:25  <planetmaker> might not be default (anymore), but not at all? Honestly dunno, just asking
17:03:39  <andythenorth> searching now
17:03:51  <planetmaker> appstore might know :)
17:03:53  <Alberth> if it's a nice ./configure tool,  CC=gcc ./configure    may be enough
17:04:47  <Alberth> although I may be underestimating the niceness of apple configurations :)
17:05:20  <andythenorth> searching implies that reinstalling gcc might be a bad idea
17:07:58  <planetmaker> Alberth, that seemed to have worked for me. A few years ago
17:08:19  <Alberth> kk
17:08:38  <andythenorth> I think I’m going to not install gcc
17:08:47  <andythenorth> I don’t have recent backups, and Bad Things Might Happen
17:09:10  <planetmaker> what can happen?
17:09:18  <planetmaker> it's not like an obscure app
17:09:26  <planetmaker> which phones home and sells your children
17:09:58  <andythenorth> might break existing clang setup
17:10:18  <andythenorth> if I had backups I’d just do it
17:10:28  <andythenorth> but I’m away from home, using a phone to get net access
17:10:43  <Alberth> fair enough
17:18:57  *** DabuYu [DabuYu@] has joined #openttd
17:20:22  * andythenorth is out of things to google
17:20:28  <andythenorth> therefore accepting defeat
17:23:11  <andythenorth> @seen snail
17:23:11  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: snail was last seen in #openttd 6 weeks, 3 days, 0 hours, 21 minutes, and 8 seconds ago: <Snail> tbh I have too much fun to draw manually
17:23:29  <andythenorth> @seen snail_
17:23:29  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: snail_ was last seen in #openttd 2 years, 2 weeks, 6 days, 22 hours, 41 minutes, and 49 seconds ago: <Snail_> yep, so the question is, would it be possible to implement labels for vehicles that could also be set through a callback
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17:24:55  <Rubidium> so the 6884 grfcodec issue is purely OS X?
17:25:03  <andythenorth> afaict
17:25:10  <andythenorth> probably only Mavericks
17:25:18  <andythenorth> maybe 10.8
17:25:26  <andythenorth> my bet is on clang / LLVM
17:25:31  <andythenorth> I’ll put €20 on it
17:25:46  <andythenorth> and €10 on a dependency, as a hedge bet :P
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17:33:17  <frosch123> andythenorth: what does the finished grf look like?
17:33:29  <frosch123> is it correct, can you attach it too?
17:34:21  <frosch123> my bet is on different int promotion stuff
17:35:25  <frosch123> the grfcodec hacking style is prone to fail for such things
17:35:59  <Rubidium> clang 3.3 seems to do the right (tm) thing
17:36:16  <Rubidium> now going to replace 3.3 with 3.5
17:42:29  <Rubidium> unless my clang doesn't actually use llvm
17:43:21  <andythenorth> frosch123: there is no finished grf
17:43:25  <andythenorth> it bails during encode
17:43:38  <andythenorth> it = grfcodec
17:43:59  <Rubidium> hmm... llvm-clang exists as well, but fails horridly upon linking
17:46:08  <planetmaker> hm... does clang compile openttd?
17:46:27  <planetmaker> or doesn't it link it? Likely I'm missing something...
17:47:05  <Rubidium> clang 3.3 on Debian compiles it
17:47:41  <planetmaker> CC=clang CXX=clang ./configure ?
17:48:30  <planetmaker>
17:50:03  <Rubidium> that's roughly the error I get for grfcodec when using llvm-clang
17:50:21  <Rubidium> though clang, which supposedly uses llvm (or not?!?) works just fine
17:51:38  <Rubidium> it's a typical "didn't link to stdlibc++"
17:55:57  <Rubidium> clang 3.5 compiles OpenTTD on Debian as well
17:57:19  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
17:57:24  <Wolf01> hi hi
17:57:47  <planetmaker> default on wheezy seems 3.0
17:58:03  <Rubidium> oh, use clang++ instead of clang
17:58:09  <Rubidium> (for just both)
17:58:53  <planetmaker> doh. That's looking better :)
17:58:54  <planetmaker> ty
18:02:44  *** tycoondemon [] has joined #openttd
18:10:06  <andythenorth> OpenTTD does compile for me btw, using whatever clang Mavericks has
18:10:46  <planetmaker> with clang++ it does for me, too (clang 3.4)
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18:21:10  <Tramvai> Hey guys. I need some help with my trains: the damn trains will go through my unloading station without unloading and to go their home 'depot'
18:21:15  <Tramvai> Why doesn't ANY depot work?
18:21:23  <andythenorth> what is a home depot?
18:21:35  <Tramvai> I don't know why they prefer one depot over the other
18:21:43  <Tramvai> I think it counts as the depot I bought the train in?
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18:22:52  <planetmaker> trains don't have that concept
18:22:57  <planetmaker> the whole game doesn't
18:23:01  <Tramvai> I have depots like this: Yet they still go through the unloading station just to enter some random depot...
18:23:10  <Tramvai> I did try making depots easy to access BEFORE the station.
18:23:11  <andythenorth> depot routing issues are usually due to signalling
18:23:15  <planetmaker> for servicing?
18:23:27  <Tramvai> Yeah
18:23:30  <andythenorth> I turn off breakdowns + servicing, because depot routing is quite broken
18:23:33  <planetmaker> then give them explicit depot orders in their schedule. Then they'll just go there when you allow them
18:23:43  <planetmaker> otherwise they visit the nearest depot straight when they need
18:24:23  <Tramvai> The train feels like it needs service during its trip to the main station and then it suddenly decides to go to a depot that is AFTER the station and just ends up doing a very long run with a full load...
18:24:25  <Tramvai> It just blows my mind
18:26:48  <planetmaker> when it wants to visit a depot it goes there without stop
18:26:55  <planetmaker> thus, tell it when to visit one
18:26:58  <planetmaker> in its orders
18:27:09  <planetmaker> and make sure there's one where it then can go without long detour
18:27:53  <Tramvai> Alright
18:28:19  <Tramvai> So, it would help if I just put some depots on the railroad in the middle of nowhere?
18:28:37  <Tramvai> So it can take its piss break there?
18:28:46  <andythenorth> turn off breakdowns :)
18:28:49  <andythenorth> problem solved
18:29:06  <planetmaker> Tramvai, please read again :)
18:29:13  <planetmaker> put the depot visit in the trains' orders
18:29:23  <Tramvai> I don't really feel like defining depots for all the trains I have. :S
18:29:26  <planetmaker> and make sure that then is a depot at the place they're told to visit it
18:30:20  <planetmaker> then make sure that depots are *before* the split of any lines
18:30:59  <andythenorth> hmm
18:31:12  <andythenorth> so until I can install GCC, my faster-newgrf-compile project is halted :P
18:31:24  <andythenorth> Alberth: how is your lexer coming along? o-O
18:31:48  <Alberth> it fails at regression test 012 currently
18:31:59  <andythenorth> tests are useful :)
18:32:02  <V453000> Tramvai: method without orders
18:32:30  <V453000> assuming 90degree turns to be off to make the image work
18:33:15  <Alberth> 5 days? :O
18:33:26  <V453000> doesnt matter, shorter = better
18:33:31  <V453000> in case you need to autoreplace twice in a row :P
18:34:03  <V453000> if it is the default (150yrs), then you need to wait half a year before you can autoreplace again
18:34:14  <V453000> or just in case trains went through some depot like overflow in the half year
18:34:47  <Alberth> I just  the default setting :)
18:34:54  <V453000> it is just a breaking condition which is nice to have so small that it doesnt prevent trains from autoreplacing ever, because you are in control of the depot places
18:35:17  <Alberth> +use
18:35:28  <V453000> understood that :P
18:35:40  <V453000> but you use breakdowns, which alone is punishable by death :P
18:35:47  <andythenorth> you should turn 90’ turns back on as well
18:35:49  <andythenorth> disabling them is stupid
18:35:51  <Alberth> Tramvai: I make all my junctions such that trains can go in any direction from any direction
18:36:18  <V453000> junctions: yes, terminus stations are fine though :P
18:36:35  <V453000> but you commented on YETI thread Alberth so you can live for now =D
18:36:54  <Alberth> phew!  :)
18:37:20  <andythenorth> but V453000 must die for 90º turns being off
18:37:38  <V453000> I dont give a shit I can play with them on, but most people hayt it :P
18:37:49  <Alberth> he must, I also have them turned off, it looks toooooo stupid to allow
18:37:58  <andythenorth> yes but it breaks your ships
18:38:02  <V453000> I would just make my terminus not have that X for 90
18:38:03  <andythenorth> they will get lost on rivers
18:38:13  <V453000> it doesnt break MY ships :D nor MY rivers
18:38:16  <Alberth> nah, just make enough room for them to turn
18:38:18  <V453000> 0 ships, rivers disabled
18:38:20  <andythenorth> you are special
18:39:39  <V453000> ps I got my BDMT factory sketched up (: just need to model it now :0
18:40:28  <andythenorth> BDMT - is that a sub-dom thing?
18:40:38  <andythenorth> I think you should keep your perversions out of the game
18:42:34  <V453000> omfg
18:42:40  <V453000> building materials, same label as firs
18:42:44  <planetmaker> Alberth, I agree, too stupid. Yet 'on' is default still :(
18:43:06  <V453000> planetmaker: original acceleration is default, PBS is default, and many more are equally intelligent
18:43:20  <V453000> I thought the original acceleration is unquestionable
18:43:28  <planetmaker> pbs as default is quite reasonable. acceleration is not :)
18:43:56  <V453000> TWO way PBS is the most confusing signal in the whole game
18:44:07  <Alberth> +1
18:44:10  <V453000> looks 1-way, behaves 2-way, has no use, only in specific cases
18:44:15  <V453000> -> makes sense to have it default?
18:44:27  <Alberth> obviously it does? :)
18:44:47  <V453000> I can accept that dumb people want to have 1-way PBS as default, obviously simple block would still be better, but 2-way PBS is just nonsense
18:45:03  <fonsinchen> I always use 2-way PBS it for terminus stations.
18:45:22  <V453000> 2-way PBS is only useful for 2-way stations, terminus can do without it
18:45:23  <fonsinchen> A lot of people build their first signals when building stations.
18:45:32  <Alberth> fonsinchen: yes, that's a specific case
18:45:49  <V453000> I am ignoring the penalty usage openttdcoop uses 2way PBS for
18:45:51  <planetmaker> maybe it's a confusing naming rather than a confusing signal?
18:46:05  <V453000> names dont help when people look at it
18:46:14  <V453000> still it is a signal without normal use
18:46:17  <planetmaker> that's true
18:46:25  <Alberth> planetmaker: the signal is confusing, it's too easy to make a complete mess of your network
18:46:32  <V453000> making new player use it is really  the worst option, perhaps aside combo signal :D
18:46:43  <fonsinchen> It's probably a good idea to have the signal be default that newbies use first
18:46:44  <planetmaker> well, terminus stations give them a normal use. But using them everywhere indeed is very stupid
18:46:48  <planetmaker> and will mess up things
18:46:58  <V453000> terminus stations _dont_ need 2way PBS either
18:47:02  <planetmaker> maybe the default pbs signal should be the 1-way pbs one
18:47:10  <planetmaker> they don't. Indeed
18:47:15  <Alberth> terminus can be done without 2-way pbs, for newbies
18:47:28  <fonsinchen> You can do without pbs there, but it's more complicated.
18:47:30  <V453000> for everyone, the 2way pbs is just wasted space there Alberth
18:47:36  <fonsinchen> you need pre/post signals then
18:47:49  <planetmaker> fonsinchen, no, you don't. You can do w/o any signals at terminus
18:48:01  <planetmaker> only entry 1-way pbs suffices
18:48:05  <Alberth> V453000: indeed, I never place them, except in pass-through stations used from both sides
18:48:14  <V453000> I think 1-way PBS would make a ton more sense. I still think it is vital for people to understand the system of block before diving into paths though.
18:48:22  <V453000> yes, that is what I call 2-way station Alberth
18:48:55  <fonsinchen> interesting ... I never though of building a terminus without signals
18:49:02  * fonsinchen goes and plays a bit
18:49:05  <V453000> :D
18:49:07  <planetmaker> :)
18:49:26  <Alberth> it saves an entire tile :)
18:49:34  <V453000>
18:49:40  <V453000> works
18:49:47  <Alberth> although I still build a straight track first from a platfom, as it looks better
18:50:21  <fonsinchen> Also that exit is not exactly a safe waiting position. But I get the logic
18:50:51  <V453000> proper networks can assume exits to be always free :P
18:51:03  <andythenorth> 2-way PBS? o_O
18:51:08  <andythenorth> I’d never thought about that
18:51:31  <fonsinchen> V453000: then you can place the exit signal(s) even closer to the station.
18:51:32  <Tramvai> V453000: Have they changed the minimum service time to 30 days now?
18:51:36  <andythenorth> also stations without signals?
18:51:42  <andythenorth> witchcraft
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18:51:52  <Alberth> fonsinchen: that exit looks like a block signal to me
18:52:05  <V453000> Tramvai: there might be some way to set it by clicking or editing config, but 30 is fine too
18:52:32  <Alberth> Tramvai: double click the line for a popup?
18:52:36  <Tramvai> Editing the cfg seems to be the only way... In-game it won't go lower than 30. Tried both using the arrows and editing through double click.
18:52:41  <V453000> fonsinchen: the station is Very far from perfect or even good, but yeah you can put it closer
18:52:59  <V453000> Tramvai: I did it somehow by some fiddling, but cant tell anymore :d 30 is fine tho
18:53:01  <Tramvai> Yeah, opened up the popup, tried 5, didn't change a thing. 30 is the lowest it accepts.
18:53:17  <V453000> could have been some combination of switching to %, setting it to 5 and then back
18:53:19  <V453000> or something similar
18:53:27  <V453000> doesnt really matter in the end, 1 month is very shoret
18:53:29  <V453000> short
18:53:49  <Alberth> less than a minute real-time :p
18:55:39  <Alberth> Tramvai: you know V plays without breakdowns and without servicing, right?
18:56:16  <Alberth> ie his trains never go to a depot, normally
18:56:25  <Tramvai> I just don't understand why the breakdown and servicing system is that bad right now...
18:56:52  <Tramvai> Seems to be a fundamental part of the game
18:57:08  <Tramvai> Yet it's seriously broken... apparently
18:57:20  <Alberth> it is?
18:57:34  <Tramvai> Or are my train drivers retarded?
18:58:18  <Alberth> probably your expectations and how it really works are not well aligned :)
18:58:34  <Tramvai> I haven't really paid attention to it much before, but I've just recently noticed what my trains are doing... And it really brought my piss to a boil
18:58:34  <planetmaker> :)
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18:58:59  <Tramvai> They seem to prefer some depots over the other... that's what's wrong
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19:00:57  <Alberth> if you tell them to get serviced every 30 days, they will try to do so every 30 days, to a depot that is near
19:01:09  <andythenorth> or a depot that is ‘near’ according to the pathfinder
19:01:13  <andythenorth> not physically near
19:01:19  <andythenorth> even if it involves going down a sidetrack
19:01:32  <andythenorth> or in the case of RVs, 20 tiles in the wrong direction
19:01:51  <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r26651 /trunk/src (3 files in 2 dirs) (2014-06-17 19:01:45 UTC)
19:01:52  <DorpsGek> -Fix: make sure an abs is used that supports int64 when using abs on those variables
19:01:54  <andythenorth> or for trains, into a station that they are too long for
19:02:08  <andythenorth> thereby blocking the network
19:02:10  <Alberth> :)
19:02:34  <planetmaker> hehe, yeah. One of the reasons to prefer one-tainlength networks
19:02:49  <Alberth> my trains are mostly all about the same length :)
19:02:49  <andythenorth> “Breakdowns: off"
19:02:53  <planetmaker> trains on wrong paths then won't cause havoc
19:03:20  <andythenorth> Dandan’s comment is interesting, suggests it might be a dep
19:03:25  <andythenorth> rather than clang / llvm
19:05:07  <andythenorth> I wonder if libpng is the issue
19:05:33  <frosch123> <- what happens if you run that on your png
19:05:38  <planetmaker> libpng warning: iCCP: Not recognizing known sRGB profile that has been edited <-- I get that, too
19:06:18  <planetmaker> on this system (fedora20). Not on my debian
19:06:31  <andythenorth> whines about ‘convert'
19:06:37  <andythenorth> command not found
19:06:43  <frosch123> imagemagick
19:06:54  <Tramvai> Alberth:
19:07:03  * andythenorth gets imagemagick
19:07:15  <andythenorth> this is going to hurt my phone bill
19:08:18  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26652 /branches/1.4 (6 files in 4 dirs) (2014-06-17 19:08:07 UTC)
19:08:19  <DorpsGek> [1.4] -Backport from trunk:
19:08:20  <DorpsGek> - Fix: Segmentation fault when encountering a .obg/.obs/.obm with empty string/zero length MD5 checksums [FS#6038] (r26637)
19:08:21  <DorpsGek> - Fix: The 'Load' button was not properly enabled/disabled for old savegames without NewGRF information (r26634)
19:08:22  <DorpsGek> - Fix: If the video driver fails to supply a list of resolutions, display an error message [FS#6012] (r26629)
19:08:33  <Alberth> Tramvai: easy, specify a depot order in the orders of the train
19:08:47  <Tramvai> I got a lot of trains, it's not very efficient :S
19:09:02  <Alberth> then it will only visit that depot at the moment the order says so
19:09:04  <planetmaker> you don't use any shared orders?
19:09:11  <Alberth> no shared orders? :O
19:09:31  <Tramvai> What are...
19:09:32  <Tramvai> Shared...
19:09:35  <Tramvai> ord...
19:09:37  <Tramvai> ers? :S
19:09:43  <Tramvai> Can I eat them? :S
19:10:03  <planetmaker> yup. They're tasty. Nut flavour with a trace of cat. Or so
19:10:05  <Tramvai> I just specify orders and clone the train...
19:10:22  <Alberth>    oh boy, have you unexplored worlds :)
19:11:24  <Tramvai> :S
19:12:48  <Alberth> basically, you share the same set of orders between trains. Change them once to change them for every train using those shared orders
19:13:16  <Tramvai> Alright, converting the trains right now. That's great, thanks.
19:13:26  <planetmaker> ctrl+click on other train
19:13:38  <planetmaker> then the train will get shared orders with the train you clicked
19:13:47  <Tramvai> Yeah, the wiki page explained it fairly well.
19:13:52  <planetmaker> or ctrl+clone to clone an existing. k :)
19:14:17  <frosch123> basically, get some glue and make your ctrl key perma-pressed
19:14:29  <andythenorth> consists :(
19:14:35  <planetmaker> :P
19:14:42  * andythenorth is now proud owner of imagemagick
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19:15:06  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r26653 /branches/1.4 (8 files in 3 dirs) (2014-06-17 19:14:59 UTC)
19:15:07  <DorpsGek> [1.4] -Backport from trunk:
19:15:08  <DorpsGek> - Fix: Incorrect usage of string commands in the base language [FS#6037] (r26642, r26640, r26639, r26632)
19:15:23  <andythenorth> frosch123: a new exciting error, after running that command
19:15:24  <andythenorth> sprites/graphics/chaplin_0.png: PNG file is not a 256 colour file!
19:15:34  <andythenorth> so it’s no longer paletted
19:15:38  <andythenorth> so I need to change the nfo?
19:16:28  <andythenorth> am I missing the bit in action 1 docs that tells me what to do?
19:16:39  <andythenorth> currently they have 8bpp specified
19:17:31  <frosch123> nah, then the imagemagick command is wrong
19:17:47  <frosch123> actually, interesting... color profiles on 8bpp data
19:17:47  *** montalvo_ [] has joined #openttd
19:17:55  <frosch123> that sounds like silly crap :p
19:17:56  *** montalvo_ [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:18:47  <planetmaker> frosch123, no, not really. They define how actually each colour looks like
19:20:42  <V453000> EXCITE
19:20:44  <V453000> of all things possible
19:20:46  <V453000> wtf
19:23:08  *** montalvo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:24:03  <andythenorth> V453000: because it’s different to the old error
19:24:09  <andythenorth> new always = exciting, no?
19:24:13  <V453000> no
19:24:20  <andythenorth> oic
19:24:30  *** montalvo [] has joined #openttd
19:24:53  <V453000> when I get a new error, the 4 letter words usually echo  through the room
19:24:53  *** montalvo [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:25:02  <V453000> I guess you can describe that as exciting
19:25:18  <V453000> though not the most fit word probably
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19:27:32  <andythenorth> wondering if I can downgrade libpng to the version snail reports as working with 6.0.3
19:28:33  <planetmaker> you use macports (or brew)?
19:28:35  <planetmaker> then you can
19:28:38  <planetmaker> likely
19:28:48  <andythenorth> I (stupidly) have both brew and macports versions right now
19:28:52  <andythenorth> I am going to bin the brew version
19:28:55  <fonsinchen> 4-letter words ... beer?
19:29:06  <planetmaker> !!! good idea :P
19:29:29  <fonsinchen> pivo!
19:29:32  <planetmaker> *plop*
19:29:44  <fonsinchen> so many 4-letter words
19:30:16  <planetmaker> nope ;)
19:30:43  <Xaroth|Work> twat?
19:30:55  <planetmaker> sure?
19:31:01  <Xaroth|Work> gheh
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19:31:30  <Rubidium> πzza?
19:31:35  <planetmaker> nice
19:32:17  <andythenorth> how do I get macports to give me older libpng?
19:32:35  <frosch123> yeti, nuts, firs, fish, most words are 4 letter words
19:33:21  <V453000> purr, meow, slug
19:33:22  <V453000> (:
19:34:04  <V453000> OIL_ is a nice 4 letter word
19:34:13  <frosch123> :p
19:34:47  <planetmaker> do you still have that maybe, andythenorth ?
19:34:51  <planetmaker> %% port installed inactive
19:34:53  <andythenorth> no
19:34:55  <andythenorth> tried that
19:34:59  <andythenorth> having to do manual install
19:35:58  <planetmaker> and you didn't use time machine on that either, no?
19:36:53  <andythenorth> not sure
19:37:10  <andythenorth> certainly I don’t have a backup nearby to check
19:37:35  <planetmaker> hm, I hoped you had the old version still. I did that on my machine a few times. But I don't clean those
19:42:37  <andythenorth> I got 1.4.8_0
19:42:55  <andythenorth> and built grfcodec 6.0.3
19:43:05  <andythenorth> but same spritesheet bounds error
19:43:34  <andythenorth> so snail has something different to me
19:43:49  <andythenorth> the deps I have are now ~same rev as snails
19:44:17  <Rubidium> different compiler?
19:44:31  <Rubidium> does it actually pick up the old png, or does it use the new one?
19:44:41  <andythenorth> not sure
19:44:47  <andythenorth> I’ve activated it with macports
19:45:08  <planetmaker> if you've mixed brew and macports you can't be sure which is used
19:45:16  <andythenorth> I removed the brew version
19:46:03  <planetmaker> then it should be unique :)
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19:47:23  * andythenorth defeated
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19:56:41  <Rubidium> it's not libpng 1.6.10; it works for me with 1.6.10
19:56:59  <NGC982> R-r-r-r-r-return what you have stolen!
19:57:01  <Rubidium> except the warning about iCCP / the sRGB profile
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20:09:06  <DorpsGek> Commit by michi_cc :: r26654 /trunk (5 files in 2 dirs) (2014-06-17 20:09:00 UTC)
20:09:07  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r26482): Header file missing from sources.list.
20:10:03  *** michi_cc_ is now known as michi_cc
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20:30:58  <andythenorth> bye
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20:33:38  <Tramvai> Guys...
20:33:45  <Tramvai> Can I destroy a train?
20:34:00  <planetmaker> you can crash it or sell it
20:34:02  <Rubidium> just crash another train into it
20:34:25  <Tramvai> I have a train that moves half a block
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20:34:26  <Tramvai> And breaks down
20:34:34  <Tramvai> All my train traffic is halted
20:34:39  <Rubidium> build a depot really really close
20:34:48  <Rubidium> and force the train to go there
20:34:57  <Tramvai> Yeah, that's what I
20:35:00  <Tramvai> am trying
20:35:04  <Tramvai> But still takes like 5 minutes
20:35:20  <Tramvai> And it doesn't want to go there...
20:35:29  <FLHerne> Or turn off breakdowns, because they're a horrible BAD FEATURE that doesn't work properly for gameplay :P
20:37:29  <Tramvai> Had my friend who hosts it turn it off
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20:37:48  <Tramvai> They were ridiculous indeed :s
20:37:56  <V453000> (:
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21:08:45  <Wolf01> 'night all
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21:28:21  <planetmaker> hm... was  Message: Assertion failed at line 1509 of /home/openttd/svn-publicserver/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: IsVariableSizeRight(sld)
21:28:21  <planetmaker>  fixed? (r26645)
21:28:37  <planetmaker> I don't see that in our logs but seem remember... wrongly?
21:28:42  <frosch123> it can happen ever again
21:28:53  <planetmaker> just happend on our PS
21:29:45  <frosch123> but no, no issue of that type was fixed since r26645
21:30:07  <frosch123> do you have a core file or other type of backtrace?
21:30:18  <planetmaker> just the crash.log
21:30:20  <frosch123> we need to know on what chunk it happened
21:30:28  <planetmaker> and crash.sav
21:32:02  <frosch123> hmm, crash.sav... how does it create a crash.sav when saving causes the crash? :p
21:32:27  <planetmaker> of size 0 bytes
21:32:28  <planetmaker> :P
21:33:36  <frosch123> did you just start playing, or did it not happen all day?
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21:35:01  <planetmaker> we started building on a virgin map.
21:36:51  <planetmaker> some 'planning' stuff might have been build before. Dunno when. So some tracks existed. And also a vehicle. But not sure how long before. V453000 do you know?
21:37:44  <V453000> the vehicle has been built today morning, few game years
21:37:52  <V453000> just check the vehicle age :)
21:38:07  <V453000> the first tracks existed since same time
21:38:14  <V453000> autoclean was on previously which cleaned our company
21:38:16  <frosch123> well, enable core files, and check whether you can trigger it again :)
21:38:22  <planetmaker> hm :)
21:38:33  <planetmaker> how do I enable core files?
21:38:56  <frosch123> ulimit -c unlimited
21:39:06  <frosch123> just put it into .bashrc
21:39:40  <frosch123> or add it to your ottd server start script, or whatever
21:40:00  <frosch123> there is no harm, it only has benefits :)
21:40:52  <Xaroth|Work> there are no limits to removing limits.
21:42:57  <planetmaker> it's started by means of some python scriped and then forked into background
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21:50:43  <planetmaker> well, let's see what happens
21:50:43  <planetmaker> I'll also have a look at my bed now. :) Good night
21:50:58  <frosch123> planetmaker: oh, i also assume you compiled with debug symbols
21:52:09  <planetmaker> I actually don't know :)
21:52:19  <planetmaker> Taede, will know
21:53:12  <planetmaker> config.log says no
21:53:25  <frosch123> well, then also enable those :)
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22:03:08  <frosch123> night
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